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MacBytes
May 8, 2007, 09:30 AM
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Category: Mac OS X
Link: Switching Back to Vista (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20070508103018)
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Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug

Zwhaler
May 8, 2007, 09:41 AM
One of the main problems with comparing Vista to Tiger is that Vista is the latest, and Tiger is (technically) not, because we have Leopard coming out in a few months. Then I would like to see someone switch to Vista from Leopard... much more unlikely.

Father Jack
May 8, 2007, 09:56 AM
I'm afraid no mater how "new" Vista is I would never go back to a PC, it took me 20 years to see the error of my ways. :cool:

I have many friends who use PC's and all I ever hear is them moaning about Vista and how xP was a much better system.

FJ

rjwill246
May 8, 2007, 10:39 AM
I replied to Nik's blog elsewhere but this is another example of the almost impossibility of getting Aussies to think outside the MS jail cell. I have tried for years to see why there is this almost universal anti-Apple reaction in Australia. Part of it may be Apple Australia- a universally despised outfit, and with good reason as they have treated customers arrogantly and with abysmal responses to problems.

But that is not what this commentary was about. It shows me that even after a year, Nik did not really get into OS X and that his superficial experience with Vista, followed by a celestial epiphany, may be too much hoopla too soon. Certainly, he didn't give Vista a year of trial! MS has such a grip on the Aussie computing world that it has become a game with me to guess what an article's slant will be before reading it. There is to date a greater than 80% likelihood that if the article comes from Australia or New Zealand, it will be anti-Apple with an almost too mouthwatering review of the MS offering.

Biased? Hell, yes. I still have not figured out why. Perhaps it is the Aussie penchant for always wanting to be on the winning team. As much as you will hear that Aussies like the underdog-- that is true, so long it loses. :mad:

flopticalcube
May 8, 2007, 10:47 AM
A blogger paid by Microsoft says what?

liketom
May 8, 2007, 10:49 AM
i use vista as well on a pc - and in all fairness......it's crap , i now dual boot the pc with XP Pro and Vista


but none of these OS's are a scratch on Tiger, but then i do not game on Mac or PC

clevin
May 8, 2007, 11:06 AM
everybody can make their own choice according to their own experiences, no need to attack other ppl's choice.

peace

sushi
May 8, 2007, 11:10 AM
I'm afraid no mater how "new" Vista is I would never go back to a PC, it took me 20 years to see the error of my ways. :cool:
Nothing wrong with Windows, XP or Vista. Sure Vista takes more resources to run, but its okay. It's new so you are going to hear about issues.

Having said that, given the choice between running Tiger and Windows (XP or Vista) I would choose Tiger hands down. :)

2GMario
May 8, 2007, 11:32 AM
He doesn't say which hardware hes running on, but for the sake of argument, lets assume hes on a Mac Book Pro or a Mac Pro - as i think, their the only ones in Apple line that come with a video card even remotely capable of handling what Vista needs to do.

That being said - The reason Vista is so slow is that only until recently, have manufactures been producing computers capable of running Vista. The stock standard Pro line is nothing to laph at

My Gateway Tablet PC, which I now run Vista on, is god offal slow - slow to the point where I don't use it and am considering selling it to put the money into something else - this computer is just a year old to - not ancient.

Then, theres the simple fact that he went to Vista from spending some time on OS X - anything you haven't played with yet, or are new to, will fell cool and fast -- use it for more than a month and you'll see the flaws.

At my day job, we run roughly 100 desktop computers, 350 thin clients (windows xp embedded) and some servers

We have no intention of moving to Vista, nor do we have any equipment other than the servers and my mac book pro that are capable of running it

and to lease 100+ brand new computers from Dell isn't in our budget right now.

Passante
May 8, 2007, 12:55 PM
I replied to Nik's blog elsewhere but this is another example of the almost impossibility of getting Aussies to think outside the MS jail cell. :mad:

Interesting quote considering Austrailia started as an penal colony for England. Guess some things never change.... (just a joke mates...not serious here)

Clive At Five
May 8, 2007, 01:07 PM
I've used both PCs and Macs personally for many years and so, naturally, I was eager to try Vista. I installed RC1 and ran it for almost a month. The only major errors were the lack of drivers compatible with my laptop. It wouldn't detect my graphic card and thus, I couldn't use aero. It also wouldn't choose a resolution appropriate for my display. Other than that, Vista was operational.

For a while I thought about converting from XP solely to Vista, but there were too many little things that didn't quite work, or annoyed the hell out of me, so I switched back to XP and never went back. The poster who said Nic Will get bored with Vista is spot-on. The only real advantage I experienced was the new skin, which took XP from Playskool to Aqua. The "security features" are exactly as described in the "Get a Mac" ad. Every action had a pop-up "cancel or allow" box... even NAVIGATING to the Control Panels, which I do a LOT. "Using this computer may cause a fatal error. Cancel or Allow?" "Clicking this link may download a virus that will wipe out your 180GB porn collection. Cancel or Allow?" "Somebody's breathing. Cancel or Allow?"

Everything else in Vista was exactly the same as Windows XP.

A critic might say, "what about the new features? Aero, Flip 3D, Sidebar? The first two don't come in the Vista Home [basic] package. The latter is slow, space-consuming, and obviously a rip-off of dashboard. Yet it works... if you can stand it.

It makes no sense for home 'basic' users to upgrade to Vista. They won't receive any of the real Vista meat for the $200 price tag and are, thus, better off staying with XP. Pro users have a better excuse to upgrade but, of course, have to take that substantial hit of $400.

To summarize, Vista *IS* an enhancement to XP, but unless you're a hard-core user and have a capable computer, little can justify the price tag. As for switching from the Mac, Vista includes only a few very technical features that Mac OS does not and thus is not an upgrade. Wider application compatibility is the only true advantage to running a Windows PC, though we all know the major applications are written for both platforms. On the Mac there are uncountably many more advantages, including security, ease of use, and durability.

The case for switching to Vista is a weak one.

-Clive

QuarterSwede
May 8, 2007, 01:29 PM
He's forgetting that by switching back to Windows he's again adopting the registry, DLL Hell and ... well you get the point.

montex
May 8, 2007, 01:31 PM
Hey Clive, in your first paragraph you cite two Vista faults with your laptop that would have been total deal breakers for me. Vista doesn't recognize your video card? AND it defaults to a lower resolution? As Bill the Cat would say, "AAAck!"

Your monitor is the MOST important interface with your computer. Why torture yourself with anything that isn't optimized? Do bleary, sore eyes not bother you?

IMHO, if Vista can't run the display the way it's supposed to it's time to format the HD and go back to XP. Your eyes will thank you.

svenr
May 8, 2007, 02:02 PM
Hey Clive, in your first paragraph you cite two Vista faults with your laptop that would have been total deal breakers for me. Vista doesn't recognize your video card? AND it defaults to a lower resolution? ...

Keep in mind he said RC1, "Release Candidate 1", i.e. not the finished product. I'm sure they didn't release the final version with such obvious flaws.

Clive At Five
May 8, 2007, 02:05 PM
Keep in mind he said RC1, "Release Candidate 1", i.e. not the finished product. I'm sure they didn't release the final version with such obvious flaws.

Exactly. I have little doubt that I'd be able to find appropriate drivers now if I cared to... but fact is, I don't.

-Clive

shamino
May 8, 2007, 03:03 PM
I don't own Vista (and will not get it for any computer I own) but I have used it a bit. My observations:


It definitely requires more resources. My gaming PC (Athlton-64 3200+, 1.5GB RAM, 200G disk, ATI Radeon 9800 Pro) could probably run it OK, even with Aero, but I wouldn't want to use it on anything older.


There's a lot of pointless rearranging of the UI. It seems that every release of Windows rearranges the system settings, especially if you got started on NT 4. It took me a long time to find the basic system settings panels (like display settings, network settings, etc.) But this is temporary - I'm sure I'd get used to the new locations, just like I did when I moved from Win95 to NT4 to Win2K to XP.


The activation system is a deal-breaker. With XP, OEM editions don't phone home when run on authorized hardware (so a Dell release of Windows would always work on Dell hardware.) Similarly, corporate site license editions don't phone home. And computers that don't fit these categories and don't have internet access can be activated with a phone call. These all allow you to run XP without internet access, which is a big deal for many customers. For example, computers that manage classified material can't have any network access beyond their secured room, let alone to the internet. And at home, my PC usually runs with its Ethernet disconnected, as a security measure, since I use my Mac for internet applications.

With Vista, however, it will always phone home, no matter what edition you have, and that it calls back every couple of weeks. It's my understanding that phone-in activation is no longer supported either. So computers that aren't permitted internet access can't be activated and therefore won't work. (I am told that large corporate accounts can get their own in-house license server setup, but that won't work for classified systems, unless they get a classified license server for each such lab.)


Vista's content protection features (See this article (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html)) really scare me. DRM everywhere, whether you want it or not. People have already reported that ordinary DVD playback consumes much more CPU power on Vista than on XP because of this "feature", and the problem will get even worse as Microsoft turns on more of this spec in future releases.

I'm also certain that this will be used as a vector for malware to create problems. All you need is one app to pretend to be a source of protected content that isn't being played through approved software and Windows will start reducing all kinds of system capabilities (like screen resolution and audio quality). This may not effect Home Basic and Business users, since they don't have media-center capabilities, but I predict that this is going to bite Home Premium and Ultimate customers.

If not for those draconian "security" measures (activation and content protection), I'd probably consider upgrading to Vista on my gaming PC. But those features aren't going away, and are likely to get much more intrusive in the future. Because of this, I will not ever install Vista on any of my hardware. When it becomes impossible to continue using XP in the future, then I'll stop using Windows altogether.

Fortunately, this won't be a problem for me. I already do all my non-gaming work on Macs, and I prefer using my PlayStation 2 for most games these days.

aristobrat
May 8, 2007, 03:36 PM
He's forgetting that by switching back to Windows he's again adopting the registry, DLL Hell and ... well you get the point.
Which is odd, because he appears to be a Windows developer. :eek: :confused:

Clive At Five
May 8, 2007, 04:20 PM
If not for those draconian "security" measures (activation and content protection), I'd probably consider upgrading to Vista on my gaming PC. But those features aren't going away, and are likely to get much more intrusive in the future. Because of this, I will not ever install Vista on any of my hardware. When it becomes impossible to continue using XP in the future, then I'll stop using Windows altogether.

Fortunately, this won't be a problem for me. I already do all my non-gaming work on Macs, and I prefer using my PlayStation 2 for most games these days.

Nice synopsis of the "securty features" and DRM. It's important that people know exactly how invasive Microsoft/Windows. It's especially a let down about the activation system. One thing to add to it is this: Periodically tweaking your hardware can INVALIDATE YOUR VISTA LICENSE! This may sound like nothing new for those who are used to this problem from XP. There's a simple solution for those folks: migrate the version of windows to the "new" computer. The same is not true for Vista: the licensed version can only be migrated once! So even if you only own one computer for the next 5 years, yet make multiple hardware upgrades during that time period, you may have to buy Vista more than once... now that's low.

BTW, I've been waiting and waiting to get a PS2 (so many great games!) and finally I got one from eBay for $45! Victory for Clive! GTA III, here I come...

-Clive

dartzorichalcos
May 8, 2007, 04:35 PM
Tiger versus Vista = Tiger wins
Leopard versus Vista = Leopard wins
Mac OS X is the better system and I will never switch to a PC.

Techguy172
May 8, 2007, 05:15 PM
Vista is awesome if you have a good computer don't bash it if you haven't tried the version thats actually out it runs blazing fast. faster than mac os 10 if you have a good computer. Sure theres driver problems but that will change it's not like that forever.

shamino
May 8, 2007, 05:26 PM
Vista is awesome if you have a good computer don't bash it if you haven't tried the version thats actually out it runs blazing fast. faster than mac os 10 if you have a good computer. Sure theres driver problems but that will change it's not like that forever.
Come back and tell us what you think in two years, when you upgrade your motherboard and find that Vista no longer works, and Microsoft wants you to fork over another $400 to keep using it.

Techguy172
May 8, 2007, 05:35 PM
Come back and tell us what you think in two years, when you upgrade your motherboard and find that Vista no longer works, and Microsoft wants you to fork over another $400 to keep using it.

You look for any opportunity to bash it don't you that's sad
You just can't admit that maybe they did a good job. Not to mention I would never upgrade the motherboard in the Laptop.

SPUY767
May 8, 2007, 08:09 PM
I always love it when Windows users come to troll these boards. If you like Windows, use it, if you like OS X, use it. We're not evangelicals here.

Honestly, I figure that this guy just decided that since people were complaining about Vista, and comparing it unfavorably to OS X, he would write an article that was opposite, because being different ALWAYS makes you cool. Like those guys in my high school, the ones with the black nail polish and ridiculously large-legged jeans. Man, those guys were awesome.

And the absolute truth here, Vista is tons slower than XP, and that's with clean installs, and really fast hardware. Vista is pretty, but it's much slower. And as we all know, it only gets worse with time, with Vista still using the registry, I am loathe to see how poor my performance will be six months.

clevin
May 8, 2007, 09:41 PM
because being different ALWAYS makes you cool.


look at the 4% market share of OSX, talk about being "different". lol, lets first be realistic here. :D

majordude
May 8, 2007, 10:19 PM
On two sides of the world, two peoples came up with the idea of the pyramid.

In Mexico, they came up with the stacked mud hut.

In Egypt, they created the Step Pyramid of Djozer.

Space aliens visited both and sold the information to Mexico. They created the larger stepped pyramids of Teotihuacan. They were proud to have the largest pyramids in the world. Frankly, in their world, they were the only pyramids in existance.

Meanwhile, the Egyptians abandoned the stepped pyramid design.

The Mayans, proud of themselves, forcefully promotted their pyramids throughout their world.

The Egyptians perfected the pyramid and created a world wonder that stands to this day.

The Mexicans gave up and went back to building adobe huts.

The parallel history of PC and the Mac. :apple:

SMM
May 8, 2007, 10:29 PM
everybody can make their own choice according to their own experiences, no need to attack other ppl's choice.

peace

Clevin - why do not you just cut this pro MS crap? Every time a pro-MS, or anti-Apple thread starts, you pop-up with your MS support. Do you think you are fooling anyone. Come on man, you are an embarrassment.

SMM
May 8, 2007, 10:29 PM
look at the 4% market share of OSX, talk about being "different". lol, lets first be realistic here. :D

I see I did not catch you before you made a fool of yourself again.

majordude
May 8, 2007, 10:35 PM
I see I did not catch you before you made a fool of yourself again... "Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."

Er, which group does that put you in? :eek:

smueboy
May 8, 2007, 11:28 PM
Tiger versus Vista = Tiger wins
Leopard versus Vista = Leopard wins
Mac OS X is the better system and I will never switch to a PC.

I don't know about the first; i hope that's true for the second; i think i will always agree with the third!! :)

:cool:

Father Jack
May 8, 2007, 11:38 PM
Mac OS X is the better system and I will never switch to a PC.
A wise choice my friend ......... but you know that already :)

FJ

djellison
May 9, 2007, 02:07 AM
Vista is a skin for XP with added varnish, added clutter, and added annoyance. To ask for money for it, and to take 5 years to make it, both hillarious.

It's made me switch

Doug

winmacguy
May 9, 2007, 03:08 AM
Interesting quote considering Austrailia started as an penal colony for England. Guess some things never change.... (just a joke mates...not serious here)

It's a history that they are very proud of too. No matter how much we hassel them about it.:D

Jookbox
May 9, 2007, 04:06 AM
my pc came with a free vista upgrade in the mail a while back. after using vista for 3 days i went back to xp. in it's current state, vista is complete crap. after going back to xp, i liked it even more, lol.

Nym
May 9, 2007, 04:29 AM
Guys guys, get used to having some people who actually prefer Windows "Whathisname" to OS X, I know a bunch of them myself and, believe me, they are NOT getting paid by M$, they just like what they're used to.

And we never talk about it, we just avoid going into the OS X vs Windows discussion to keep our friendship stable. :D

winmacguy
May 9, 2007, 04:48 AM
Vista 5 months later.... This one is interesting, from OS News.

First and foremost, I want to address the issue of hardware requirements. The laptop on which I originally reviewed Vista was a fairly new one; not extravagant in any way (Intel Pentium M 1.73Ghz, 768MB DDR2-RAM, Ati Radeon x300 with 128Mb of (dedicated) RAM), but certainly well capable of running Windows Vista. Realising not everyone has such a machine sitting around to try Vista on, I wanted to try Vista out on my very old desktop machine. This machine has an AMD Athlon XP 1600+ processor, 768MB of pc133 SD-RAM, an nVIDIA Geforce 6200 with 128MB of RAM, and a 40GB IDE hard drive. Microsoft NL was so kind as to provide OSNews with a review copy of Windows Vista Ultimate for the purposes of this review.

As I had anticipated, this desktop machine was anything but capable of running Vista. It 'ran' alright, but that was about al you could say. It took ages to load applications, Explorer was slow, and boot times were nothing to write home about. The installation process also took hours to complete.
http://osnews.com/story.php/17870/Vista-5-Months-Later/

Pikemann Urge
May 9, 2007, 05:41 AM
I replied to Nik's blog elsewhere but this is another example of the almost impossibility of getting Aussies to think outside the MS jail cell. I have tried for years to see why there is this almost universal anti-Apple reaction in Australia.
People here are suspicious of things that make life better, more beautiful. I can't quite put my finger on it. But we happily bend over and take it. We don't have a sense of self-worth that the French do, nor do we have their sophistication. We also are afraid of femininity. We're also insecure. At least we can, sometimes, recognize greatness when we see it, i.e. the iPod. :) I think our new generations are not content to be stuck in mediocrity.

majordude
May 9, 2007, 08:44 AM
Vista is a skin for XP with added varnish, added clutter, and added annoyance. To ask for money for it, and to take 5 years to make it, both hillarious. It's made me switch.

It made me switch too.

When I saw Vista on a brand new laptop it reminded me of that Simpson's episode where Homer's long lost brother let him design a car for his car company.

When I saw a clock floating on the screen 5" above the time in the status bar I knew it was doomed.

koobcamuk
May 9, 2007, 09:31 AM
On two sides of the world, two peoples came up with the idea of the pyramid.

In Mexico, they came up with the stacked mud hut.

In Egypt, they created the Step Pyramid of Djozer.

Space aliens visited both and sold the information to Mexico. They created the larger stepped pyramids of Teotihuacan. They were proud to have the largest pyramids in the world. Frankly, in their world, they were the only pyramids in existance.

Meanwhile, the Egyptians abandoned the stepped pyramid design.

The Mayans, proud of themselves, forcefully promotted their pyramids throughout their world.

The Egyptians perfected the pyramid and created a world wonder that stands to this day.

The Mexicans gave up and went back to building adobe huts.

The parallel history of PC and the Mac. :apple:

But God created man and the dinosaurs co-existed with man peacefully. Look at the teeth of a hippo.

Possibly the best thing I have ever typed.

Qunchuy
May 9, 2007, 01:00 PM
"Vista is better than people led me to believe it would be. Look, this part works just like OS X! And this part! And this part too! Hmm, it found my other Microsoft gizmos on the network without trouble. And it's got lots of productivity stuff built in, like a CD burning app."

He used Vista for a day, being pleasantly surprised that it wasn't as bad as he expected, and that it had features apparently copied from Mac OS X. That makes him a switcher?

shamino
May 9, 2007, 02:34 PM
You look for any opportunity to bash it don't you that's sad
You just can't admit that maybe they did a good job. Not to mention I would never upgrade the motherboard in the Laptop.
You obviously have no clue who I am or what my opinion is, nor did you even read my previous post in this thread.

As I already wrote, it looks like an OK system, if you can meet the new hardware requirements, but their DRM-and-activation-everywhere that kills system performance and makes it impossible to perform a hardware upgrade is a disaster waiting to happen.

Maybe you are one of those people who never upgrade anything, so this doesn't matter. Plenty more of us don't throw out perfectly good computers when simple upgrades can keep it going for a few more years. With Vista, Microsoft is saying "sorry, you can't do that - if you upgrade anything we don't approve of, you have pay another $400". As someone who has frequently bought new motherboards, processors, hard drives, video cards and network adapters, I would end up spending thousands of dollars a year to keep a single Vista license active.

If you think there's nothing wrong with this insanity, you're welcome to it.

majordude
May 9, 2007, 02:37 PM
He used Vista for a day, being pleasantly surprised that it wasn't as bad as he expected, and that it had features apparently copied from Mac OS X. That makes him a switcher?

As long as he just likes the parts that were copied. :cool:

SPUY767
May 11, 2007, 07:07 AM
As someone who has frequently bought new motherboards, processors, hard drives, video cards and network adapters, I would end up spending thousands of dollars a year to keep a single Vista license active.

Amen to that. XP was bad with upgrades, breaking after a few upgrades or a large single upgrade like a motherboard, (not to mention the total inability to boot afterward), but when I upgraded my Media Center/Screw Around PC to vista, I installed two larger sticks of lower latency RAM. . . BAM! No worky. Ridiculous. I honestly don't understand how a company, who clearly puts it customers 32nd or 33rd on it's list of important people, can stay in business.