Patent: Multisided Full Screen Touch iPod

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Appleinsider details (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/05/10/apple_filing_reveals_multi_sided_ipod_with_touch_screen_interface.html) a new patent applicaton from Apple which explores the possibility of seperating the display from the touch interface by placing the touch screen interface on the back of the device.

Apple describes the problems related to the use of a touch interface screen in the more traditional screen + touch interface together. The problems include obscuring the screen with your hand and introducing smudges onto the screen.

Instead the use of "back side touch" would eliminate these issues but still provide user interface feedback with the use of an on-screen cursor which identifies where the touch-interface is being used.

More specifically, a force-sensitive touch-surface is provided on a first or back-side surface of the device through which a user provides input (e.g., cursor manipulation and control element selection/activation)," the company wrote. "On a second or front-side surface, a display element is used to present one or more control elements and a cursor that is controlled through manipulation of the back-side touch-surface.

The patent is credited to John Elias who was one of the founders of Fingerworks, a company who had done much work in the field of touch-interfaces. Apple acquired Fingerworks (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/15/synaptics-clearpad-technology-fingerworks-iphone/) in 2005.

[gallagb]

another cool hint----

of something we might never see.

or maybe we will- neat though

[sachamun]

Interesting, but I really don't like the idea of using such a device. I'd rather wait for better, more durable touch screens.

[MattG]

Sounds good..bring it on!

[mmzplanet]

i dunno about having to flip it that much....you would still touch the front.

[notsofatjames]

how wierd would it be to touch the back of the iPod to control the front. I dont think it would catch on.

[arn]

i dunno about having to flip it that much....you would still touch the front.

you wouldn't flip it. you would touch in on the back and still look at it from the front. read the description again.

arn

[IEatApples]

I think it's gonna work! :)

Brilliant even! :cool:

[iMikeT]

I'm willing to bet a Power Book G5 that we will never see this.

[P-Worm]

This just seems a bit awkward to me. How easy is it to select thing you can't really see? Sure the is a cursor to let you know where you are touching, but I'd rather not fumble around like that.

P-Worm

[Bye Bye Baby]

This just seems a bit awkward to me. How easy is it to select thing you can't really see? Sure the is a cursor to let you know where you are touching, but I'd rather not fumble around like that.

P-Worm

If you think about it though, when you use the scroll wheel on your ipod, do you look at the wheel or the screen? Personally I am not even thinking about the scroll wheel when I use the ipod. I am not sure that putting it on the back may make such a difference.

[amac4me]

If we see this iPod at some point in the future, you can bet it will be released AFTER the release of the iPhone.

No way Apple would release a new generation iPod that could take away sales from the iPhone.

[whenpaulsparks]

did anyone notice how screwy the letters are arranged?

[Teddy's]

Yeah, just try it (virtually). Close your eyes, imagine a screen, then put your fingers on the back, move them around and do the trick. *No, i am not being sarcastic.

And what about the "cases" industry? They would have a hard time figuring out a case for it.

Cheers

[JMax1]

There are so many things we do without looking at our fingers. I dont know about you, but texting, typing on the computer, playing an instrument, hand guestures, using the mouse... so many thing we use without looking at out hands. Granted, at FIRST we look at our hands, but then our motor-memory kicks in and we let our fingers do the walking.

I think it would be a neat idea, a good way to be smudge-free. I'm imagining holding my iPod with my index and thumbs both hands, and using my middle fingers do access the touch pad on the other side. It might be tough to use the far left and right hand sides of the underside, and people with smaller fingers might have a tough time reaching the middle.

neat approach and practical solution, but I think too many people will be scared of it, no matter how practical. This is probably Apply brainstorming solutions to smudging. Probably wont happen but they saw the neat idea and wanted to protect their valuable brain-property.

[RRK]

I have doubts about this one. I can see controlling a curser in this way but can you actually believe that we would be able to type using a virtual keyboard on the back while looking at the keys on the front. Presuming you will have two handed typing like Blackberrys and such and are using your forefingers to hold the device then your thumbs are above the screen. You will have to type with your middle fingers. :confused:

[koobcamuk]

OK... does anyone else wonder how the hell to hold the thing if you're looking at the whole of the front and controlling it via all of the back?

holding it could be a nightmare... you'd touch the front screen anyway - just holding it!

[oscuh]

This might simply be patent acquisition in order to protect their interests regarding "something else" that may or may not come along ... eventually ... maybe.

People thought there was no way to effectively control all those buttons when the PlayStation, et al came out. See how that ended up? I don't think it'd be all that difficult to touch the back to control the front. Wait, that sounded dirty ...

[mackensteff]

This idea was actually proposed by a reader (can't remember who) when the idea of a full screen ipod gained momentum. To all the idea killers, think before you respond, THIS IS the next generation user interface for the ipod. The added benefit is no more whinning about all the smudges on the screen.

[koobcamuk]

And what about the "cases" industry? They would have a hard time figuring out a case for it.

Cheers

hahhahaa :rolleyes:

[ifjake]

i don't think i get it. touching the screen is bad for the iPod, but perfectly acceptable for the iPhone?

[grapes911]

The patent is credited to John Elias who was one of the founders of Fingerworks, a company who had done much work in the field of touch-interfaces. Apple acquired Fingerworks (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/15/synaptics-clearpad-technology-fingerworks-iphone/) in 2005.

A little off topic, but I took two courses (Microprocessor Systems and Analog Circuits) taught by Professor Elias at the University of Delaware. Brilliant guy. His Fingerworks boards are amazing.

[Teddy's]

i don't think i get it. touching the screen is bad for the iPod, but perfectly acceptable for the iPhone?

Different kind of coating

touchscreen touchscreen, I want my touchscreen
multitouch ok, enough

don't repeat it too much.

[pimentoLoaf]

i don't think i get it. touching the screen is bad for the iPod, but perfectly acceptable for the iPhone?

iPods are supposed to be indestructable; any damage is bad design and must be met with a class-action lawsuit. :D

[RRK]

Seriously, anyone grab your iPod and try to find any logical way that you could hold your iPod without twisting your wrists inward in a very un-ergonomic way. If you can figure it out id like to see it.

[Ja Di ksw]

Wait, I thought they found a way around the smudge with the iPhone. Does this mean the iPhone is going to have smudges?

[digitalbiker]

Wait, I thought they found a way around the smudge with the iPhone. Does this mean the iPhone is going to have smudges?

Use your brain. Of course, the iphone will have smudges!

What, did you think a tiny pair of windshield wipers with spray was going to automatically appear and wipe the screen after each use? :D

[Ja Di ksw]

Use your brain. Of course, the iphone will have smudges!

What, did you think a tiny pair of windshield wipers with spray was going to automatically appear and wipe the screen after each use? :D

Wow, that was polite.

Perhaps I said this because Steve had mentioned during the keynote that they were some some material or had designed it in such a way or whatever so it wouldn't be covered in smudges.

[dontmatter]

This just seems a bit awkward to me. How easy is it to select thing you can't really see? Sure the is a cursor to let you know where you are touching, but I'd rather not fumble around like that.

P-Worm

You can't see anything but a representative cursor when you're using a mouse, right? Particularly with a thin device, this could be great.

[Mydriasis]

I could imagine doing something like scrolling, but typing? All the 'moves' are mirror images of what we are used to.

Interesting concept though.:)

[whooleytoo]

Funnily enough, we called this exact feature in a previous thread here. Linky (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2648011&postcount=90)

(The thread was discussing a previous Apple patent which could detect the user's finger hovering over a touch-screen, and we speculated it could be used to detect the location of the user's fingers on the back,though we guessed they'd project an outline of them onto the screen on the front so you can see which button you're about to push.)

[jonharris200]

I thought of it first (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=185797&page=6&highlight=back+ipod+touch)*! :D Apple, my door is open!

How about a scroll wheel on the back of an iPod Video?

As you use the familiar circular and five-way push button mechanism on the back of the iPod, a digital version of the scroll wheel appears on the screen at the front.

This would obviously not be a full-blown user input such as a keyboard/mouse combination provides, but it could be a handy way of keeping a scroll wheel on the iPod while enlarging the screen... and avoiding greasy fingerprints.


In one embodiment of the invention, Apple said it could incorporate the functionality of click-wheel on the device's force-sensitive touch-surface via an etched or raised outline. When the user activates the rear-side click-wheel, a navigation menu and click-wheel will be shown on the front side.

* post #141 on that thread

[iSee]

This is just a trackpad positioned on the back of the device.
I'm not sure this is innovative enough to really be patentable. If a display becomes large enough to cover an entire side of a device, where else are the controls going to go?

Edit: Ah Ha! Read the post immediately before this one: prior art (pun intended!): Patent application DENIED!

[Mac Fly (film)]

This is just a trackpad positioned on the back of the device. I'm not sure this is innovative enough to really be patentable.I disagree, I think one could easily patent this, a rightly so, it's a damn good idea if it can be implemented correctly.

[Peace]

[snippet]

This is just a trackpad positioned on the back of the device.
I'm not sure this is innovative enough to really be patentable. If a display becomes large enough to cover an entire side of a device, where else are the controls going to go?


you have seen the iPhone right?

[ChrisA]

how wierd would it be to touch the back of the iPod to control the front. I dont think it would catch on.

how weird would it be to move a hunk of plastic on the desk to control a computer screen. I don't think it would catch on.

[SpudNYC]

This would require you to hold the iPod in order to control it. I think most people spend some of their time controlling it in their pocket or on their desk. The small amount of feedback you get from the clickwheel's shape allows you to locate your finger quickly but this would be very difficult in your pocket and impossible lying on a tabletop.

[slffl]

This is stupid and will never be in a product. This is a pantent for pantents sake. The next iPod will have a UI exactly like the iPhone.

[JPark]

If you think about it though, when you use the scroll wheel on your ipod, do you look at the wheel or the screen? Personally I am not even thinking about the scroll wheel when I use the ipod. I am not sure that putting it on the back may make such a difference.

Imagine how you'd have to hold it in order to control it from the back but watch the front. It would be a pretty lame product IMO. This one's never making it past the patent stage.

[longofest]

You can find the original patent application here (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=20070103454&OS=20070103454&RS=20070103454).

Abstract:
An electronic device uses separate surfaces for input and output. One of the surfaces (e.g., the bottom) includes a force-sensitive touch-surface through which a user provides input (e.g., cursor manipulation and control element selection). On a second surface (e.g., the top), a display element is used to present information appropriate to the device's function (e.g., video information), one or more control elements and a cursor. The cursor is controlled through manipulation of the back-side touch-surface. The cursor identifies where on the back-side touch-surface the user's finger has made contact. When the cursor is positioned over the desired control element, the user selects or activates the function associated with the control element by applying pressure to the force-sensitive touch-surface with their finger. Accordingly, the electronic device may be operated with a single hand, wherein cursor movement and control element selection may be accomplished without lifting one's finger.

[210]

I don't think this will work. The existing iPod is a massive hit because of the ease of use which I don't think this device has. Like someone mentioned earlier, you can't really navigate around easily as your hand will be turned over. Also, I can't imagine you can navigate around using just one hand. Also, as someone else has mentioned, what kind of case can you use? Both sides of the device needs to be exposed. Sure, a clear skin would be fine, but that might cause problems with navigation.

I think it's a good idea, but not very practical. An iPhone design looks like the best way to go until humans can evolve to turn their hands in such a way that would be easy. I personally don't see much a problem with smudges on the screen; just put the iPod on hold, wipe it and everything is fine again.

[whooleytoo]

I thought of it first (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=185797&page=6&highlight=back+ipod+touch) (post #141 - Nov 06)! :D Apple, my door is open!

I don't know.. mine (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2648011&postcount=90)is from July '06:


The iPod has a screen on the front which displays the controls, but the touch/presence/motion sensitive sensor is on the back. Since the controls are on the back, your view of the screen isn't obscured by your finger tapping on it.


Denied! :p ;)

[viperguy]

This would require you to hold the iPod in order to control it. I think most people spend some of their time controlling it in their pocket or on their desk. The small amount of feedback you get from the clickwheel's shape allows you to locate your finger quickly but this would be very difficult in your pocket and impossible lying on a tabletop.

Makes sense...
At least when I'm at the bus or subway I control it in my pocket :D :apple:

[pacohaas]

did anyone notice how screwy the letters are arranged?

not so much a weird arrangement as it is a total lack of the letter "B"! But somehow they've managed to type "The Quick B". Magic! Once again apple is hoping to be ahead of consumer demand for the letter "V" and is proactively replacing the letter "B" which will soon phased out of the english language.

edit: yeah, and I like to replace D with B as well!...ooops, the letter D is getting no love today.

[Loge]

IAlso, as someone else has mentioned, what kind of case can you use? Both sides of the device needs to be exposed. Sure, a clear skin would be fine, but that might cause problems with navigation.

Well Apple's case design would work - you take it out of the case to use it. :p

[iowamensan]

Apparently, in the future the popularity of the letter "D" goes down, and the letter "V" becomes so common that it is needed on the keyboard twice! Amazing!
I can't wait for the future! I vo believe it will be vownright awesome. Inveev.

[iowamensan]

not so much a weird arrangement as it is a total lack of the letter "B"! But somehow they've managed to type "The Quick B". Magic! Once again apple is hoping to be ahead of consumer demand for the letter "V" and is proactively replacing the letter "B" which will soon phased out of the english language.

Vamn you. I spent too much time reading and didn't refresh before posting. Is your image really showing a missing "B"? Because mine is clearly the "D".

[whooleytoo]

Apparently, in the future the popularity of the letter "D" goes down, and the letter "V" becomes so common that it is needed on the keyboard twice! Amazing!
I can't wait for the future! I vo believe it will be vownright awesome. Inveev.

Is Ives from London? If so "I've got an iPov, brov.." sounds about right for his accent..

[guzhogi]

I don't see the need for the front screen you look at and the touch thing on back. Why not just use the iPhone minus the phone part? The iPhone uses the screen and input thing in the same thing, not 2 different things. Sure, it'll get smudged, but that's why we have cleaning supplies! While I understand not wanting to smudge it and the fact that your fingers might cover up some of the screen, but what about the iPhone? Would make sense to have this on both or neither, not just one.

[pgwalsh]

Interesting design and concept. Kind of funny how the keypad image is in alphabetical order with two V's. Guess they had to rush it out.

You'd have to learn a different way to type, as on most mobile devices, since your index finger and thumb would be tied up holding the device. Would be somewhat intuitive if the space bar was touch sensitive on the front with the remaining keyboard on the back. Also, since they laid the keyboard in alphabetical order I wonder if they'd flip mirror it where the tgb are on the left and the yhn are on the right? Should be interesting.

[bretm]

This just seems a bit awkward to me. How easy is it to select thing you can't really see? Sure the is a cursor to let you know where you are touching, but I'd rather not fumble around like that.

P-Worm

Oh, yeah. Like a mouse? How awkward.

[dernhelm]

Seriously, anyone grab your iPod and try to find any logical way that you could hold your iPod without twisting your wrists inward in a very un-ergonomic way. If you can figure it out id like to see it.

You can do it for something simple like a circular motion to up the volume or something, but typing on a keyboard?

Sounds ridiculous to me. Another example of a company patenting almost anything it can think of because if you don't, due to our completely broken patent process and the apparent disproportionate number of patent lawyers in the US, the potential consequences are too horrible to imagine.
:mad:

[jonharris200]

I don't know.. mine (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2648011&postcount=90)is from July '06:

Denied! :p ;)
Ha! You win... but we should both be working for Apple!! :D :) :cool:

[bentoon]

There is a keyboard in the patent...
Try to Type

[IEatApples]

Have a look at the second illustration… It has a button that says: "DIAL" … iPhone related? :confused:

[whooleytoo]

Ha! You win... but we should both be working for Apple!! :D :) :cool:

Jobs in Apple are easy to get. Jobs in Apple designing new products/user interfaces are a tad more difficult to come by... ;)

The fact that two people on this forum alone have had very similar (if not identical) ideas previous to this patent application should be a fair indicator that it may be too obvious to be patented.

[FelixGV]

Weird...

[whooleytoo]

Have a look at the second illustration… It has a button that says: "DIAL" … iPhone related? :confused:

This is probably an idea they played with before they settled on the iPhone's (front!) touchscreen keyboard.

[iSee]

[snippet]
you have seen the iPhone right?

Well, yes. I thought it was too obvious to mention.

I just wanted to point out that moving controls to some location other than where the display is is a an obvious thing to do.

[Dustman]

i hope they release a new ipod soon.. i'm getting bored of the design myself. and you haters out there, apple's not going to release a product that it's customers can't use. stop crying. its a patent application. its not a stab at your mother.

[morespce54]

OK... does anyone else wonder how the hell to hold the thing if you're looking at the whole of the front and controlling it via all of the back?

holding it could be a nightmare... you'd touch the front screen anyway - just holding it!


agree... the rounded side of an iPod is kind of slim to be the only place for holding it... :confused:

[Clive At Five]

Two words:

iPhone Nano.

...
...
...

Or three words:

"Cover your ass" ;)

-Clive

[morespce54]

i don't think i get it. touching the screen is bad for the iPod, but perfectly acceptable for the iPhone?

good point...

[twoodcc]

well this sounds like a good idea.....we'll see if they use it or not

[digitalbiker]

Wow, that was polite.

Perhaps I said this because Steve had mentioned during the keynote that they were some some material or had designed it in such a way or whatever so it wouldn't be covered in smudges.

OOps Sorry!

Looking back on my post it does seem rude. I really didn't mean to offend, its just the text that popped out of my brain.

SJ has a way of glossing over obvious issues with new tech. Unfortunately natural oil on your fingers are always going to slightly obscure the transmission of light once deposited on the display. There is no space age transparent material that prevents fingerprints.

[dongmin]

This is stupid and will never be in a product. This is a pantent for pantents sake. The next iPod will have a UI exactly like the iPhone.

This interface would be PERFECT for at least one use: games. Imagine holding your iPhone/iPod sidways like a gamepad or PSP: having "force" controls on the back would be very useful.

Also note that this patent covers putting a force "strip" on the side of the iPod/iPhone, kind of like a scroll strip a la the Blackberry.

[GregA2]

not so much a weird arrangement as it is a total lack of the letter "B"! But somehow they've managed to type "The Quick B". Magic! Once again apple is hoping to be ahead of consumer demand for the letter "V" and is proactively replacing the letter "B" which will soon phased out of the english language.

edit: yeah, and I like to replace D with B as well!...ooops, the letter D is getting no love today.

"MacRumors has been brought to you today by the letters 'D' and 'V'. And we would've had 'B' too, but the B got pulled because it wasn't popular anymore."

[Counter]

They could improve upon this by having all sides of the iPod equal in size. A touch screen on each side. Whichever side you touch, the cursor moves on the opposite side. You could have your pictures showing on one side, a video playing on another, your music on another, touch control by another, solitaire on another, iQuiz on another. The possibilities are endless. If you touch any two sides together it powers off.

Ladies and gentlemen: The iPod Cube

[shamino]

This sort of reminds me of some of those iPod concept-art blog-contests from a few years back. For instance, this entry (http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/gallery/image_med/10757/) demonstrates a similar concept (click-wheel on the back, to allow for a larger display.) I remember other even more interesting variations on this theme, although I don't have links handy right now.

[spotlight07]

Seriously, anyone grab your iPod and try to find any logical way that you could hold your iPod without twisting your wrists inward in a very un-ergonomic way. If you can figure it out id like to see it.

Ok, I've got two design ideas that I think would still fall under this patent. First, the iPod could be molded differently than the ones we have today. Instead of flat on the back, it could be rounded, or bow outwards, etc. Second, the patent mentions one-hand, one-finger operation, hinting to me that it could be a touch pad like a laptop, where a small pad (or user-defined area on the back) controls the whole screen.

[oscuh]

Use your brain. Of course, the iphone will have smudges!

What, did you think a tiny pair of windshield wipers with spray was going to automatically appear and wipe the screen after each use? :D

It must be a heavy burden to be so enlightened compared to the rest of us...

edit ---> Saw your apology ... try to edit your thoughts BEFORE posting them :D

[Analog Kid]

Ha! You win... but we should both be working for Apple!!
Oh boy... Apple's gonna love MR even more when forum posts from here pop up as prior art in their patent cases.

The idea itself is novel (though awkward), and my guess is the PTO isn't trolling around here looking for priority so it will probably be awarded.
If you think about it though, when you use the scroll wheel on your ipod, do you look at the wheel or the screen? Personally I am not even thinking about the scroll wheel when I use the ipod. I am not sure that putting it on the back may make such a difference.
I do-- I look at the wheel when I drop my thumb on it and then can look away. That's actually one of the annoying things about the touch wheel that's flush with the enclosure-- I don't get much tactile feedback at all on whether I'm touching the wheel or the face. I notice this most when I'm driving and can't look down.

[ethernet76]

I think it would work, but it'd be overly complex, something apple isn't a fan of (they shipped one button mice with desktops for how long?).

Look at the successive iPod interfaces. All can be controlled with one hand. This isn't really a problem with a phone as you usually double fist it anyway.

[ethernet76]

Oh boy... Apple's gonna love MR even more when forum posts from here pop up as prior art in their patent cases.

The idea itself is novel (though awkward), and my guess is the PTO isn't trolling around here looking for priority so it will probably be awarded.

I do-- I look at the wheel when I drop my thumb on it and then can look away. That's actually one of the annoying things about the touch wheel that's flush with the enclosure-- I don't get much tactile feedback at all on whether I'm touching the wheel or the face. I notice this most when I'm driving and can't look down.

All click wheels that I can remember have a different texture or shape than the face. Also the center button is raised. All you have to do is do laps around the mound with your thumb.

[shamino]

All click wheels that I can remember have a different texture or shape than the face. Also the center button is raised. All you have to do is do laps around the mound with your thumb.
Some (like the current nanos) have the center button indented. Either way, there is a tactile difference.

But the difference is subtle. I'm not surprised that it's not enough for some people, especially when their attention is focussed on something else (like driving.)

[robertnq]

the drawing reminds me more of a iPod Nano...maybe the iPhone Nano....hmmm???? :eek:

[Spades]

There are so many things we do without looking at our fingers. I dont know about you, but texting, typing on the computer, playing an instrument, hand guestures, using the mouse... so many thing we use without looking at out hands. Granted, at FIRST we look at our hands, but then our motor-memory kicks in and we let our fingers do the walking.

You no longer look at them with your eyes, but you do still sense what you're pressing through touch. Without either looking at what you're pressing or without the device providing tactile feedback, you can't accurately use a control.

[gonnabuyamac]

i've been trying to hold my nano with this whole screen on the back idea, and i actually think it's doable. it would take some getting used to, but i'd definitely buy one. - i didn't see it in the drawings, but i would think that the typical placement for the headphone jack could be in the way if you have to hold it sideways - but i really wouldn't want the cord jutting out from the middle of the thing either. hopefully they'll include bluetooth headphones.

[grappler]

I think it's an awesome idea.

In fact, I spend a lot of time thinking about user interfaces and my first reaction was, "I wish I thought of that!"

I would buy it.

[guzhogi]

I'll have to use this before making an opinion. Just by looking at the patent application, it looks hard to look at the screen and do the input on the other side. Mice and the scroll wheel on iPods are fairly simple. For mice, you know that if you move the mouse left, the cursor would go left. Go right and the cursor goes right. So you don't have to look at the mouse. For scroll wheels, go clockwise and you go down/right in the list. Go counter-clockwise and it goes up/left. From what I gather from this, it might be hard to know whether you're pressing the right area. You might think you're touching one area, but your fingures might be a few tenths of inch off and select something different. I did gymnastics in high school and there are a few release moves on high bar. Release moves are where you let go of the bar, do something like a back flip and recatch the bar. Some release moves have blind catches meaning you can't see the bar when you catch it. Blind catches and this seem very similar. A gymnast performing a blind catch might be inches off and that could mean the difference between catching the bar, falling on the matt or falling onto the bar. Very dangerous. It would help to see where you're actually pressing. Also, when it says that your finger may touch multiple inputs, what difference does it make if the input is on the screen or not?

[wakerider017]

If there are so many problems with having the touchscreen on the front then why are they making the iphone that way?

[RRK]

This does maybe lend itself to the multi-touch mouse pad idea.

[MacFly123]

I can't believe nobody has noticed that in the patent picture one of the screens is a phones keypad, and a keyboard (not qwerty). I bet anything that this was something they were working on before they got into multi-touch for the iPhone and I bet it will never see the light of day. Of course the new iPod is going to be multi-touch just like the iPhone.

I thought this was stupid at first, then I humbled myself enough to pick up my iPod and see what it would be like, and it wasn't that bad, BUT apparently they found multi-touch to be better. You think if this idea were better that they would put it on the iPod and not the iPhone? Of course not.

[nagromme]

This is EXACTLY the kind of terrible idea that makes Apple so innovative and creative :) Luckily, it tends to be the better ideas that make it to shelves.

[spookje]

Sounds a bit like a two hands job to me. Touchscreen on the backside. Let's hope that wont come through.

[reverie]

I don't believe in patents, but this would indeed make an iPhone nano possible. Just watch the January keynote, Steve Jobs had like 3 or 4 mistypes on the big iPhone. You can't make that design any smaller. It's either this backrub touchscreen (where what your fingertip is doing is not hidden by your finger) or no touchscreen at all if you want a small iPhone (and that's the one I'll be holding out for).

[Dustman]

I think it would work, but it'd be overly complex, something apple isn't a fan of (they shipped one button mice with desktops for how long?).

Look at the successive iPod interfaces. All can be controlled with one hand. This isn't really a problem with a phone as you usually double fist it anyway.

and now they just hide the other button.:confused: why does apple think we hate buttons?

[ezekielrage_99]

i dunno about having to flip it that much....you would still touch the front.

I thought the same way about the first iPod's navigation system (e.g. it being clunky), but I do think Apple does a ver good job at implementing a controls for their hardware.

[jettredmont]

Seriously, anyone grab your iPod and try to find any logical way that you could hold your iPod without twisting your wrists inward in a very un-ergonomic way. If you can figure it out id like to see it.

Well, I just picked up mine after reading the description. Using my right hand. Thumb goes along the right edge, last three fingers along the left. The pointer finger flits around the surface of the back.

I think the comfortable range on the back surface, though, is about 80% of the width and height of the unit, with "blind" spots along the right edge (next to the thumb) and the bottom edge and bottom-left corner. So, I'd map that slightly smaller rectangle to 95% of the front display, perhaps leaving just a few pixels around the edges controlled with the last 10% of each edge. Also, I think any precision movements would be more well suited to the "top" half of the device because of this, so I'd expect the scroll wheel to move up to the top instead of the bottom.

Is it really so hard for you guys to do? That seems very natural to me, and no less ergonomic than trying to do fine motor movements with my thumb on the current iPod.

I sit squarely in the "brilliant" camp. It's a classic Apple design. It'd be nice to see it get to production.

[jettredmont]

And what about the "cases" industry? They would have a hard time figuring out a case for it.


Given that there are "skin" cases which cover the touch pads of current iPods and seem to work rather well ... would the type of touch pad required for this (sensing relative pressure as well as touch) also work with a properly-designed plastic covering? Or are the current touch pads pressure-sensitive?

Anyone know?

Would make cases much less diverse, perhaps, though. They'd all need a fully clear front and a fully touch-transmissive back. The sides could be leather or neoprene or rhinestone-studded to one's heart's desire, though. I suppose you might also be able to color the back surface to put some sort of design on it too, but materials-wise you'd be pretty limited.

[EagerDragon]

i dunno about having to flip it that much....you would still touch the front.

I don't think so. Hold the current iPod in your hand, and use your index finger to carress the back of the unit. Move it up/down then left to right, pretty natural. Doing circles is not bad but takes getting used to it.

I think this patten has potential. However I think it maybe to block others from doing a similat interface.

The longer Apple prevents others, the longer it will have the market and the more time it has to innovate again and leap once more over the competition.

Just my opinion.

[Lumeswell]

I don't know.. mine (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2648011&postcount=90)is from July '06:



I dont know, if we are playing that game, mine (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=184616&page=5) is from March '06 ;-)

post #122

[EagerDragon]

Use your brain. Of course, the iphone will have smudges!

What, did you think a tiny pair of windshield wipers with spray was going to automatically appear and wipe the screen after each use? :D

Sorry there is a patent on that one.

[EagerDragon]

This is probably an idea they played with before they settled on the iPhone's (front!) touchscreen keyboard.

Bingo. This patent is to stop others from getting this type of functionality and making it dificult for them to inovate. Mean time Apple has time to leap the competition again.

[Hummer]

I find it amazing considering just two days ago I was thinking of an ipod with the click wheel on the back allowing a full screen, but I didn't think it would work.

[Aussie John]

Imagine how you'd have to hold it in order to control it from the back but watch the front. It would be a pretty lame product IMO. This one's never making it past the patent stage.

hold it like you hold your phone and with a slight adjustment your index finger is free to control a rear side scroll wheel. Of course the scroll action would run backwards but software would flip it for you.

typing text?? that is more of a challenge

[Cassie]

I hate new designs.

Change is not good:(

if it anint broke dont fix it!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[whooleytoo]

I dont know, if we are playing that game, mine (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=184616&page=5) is from March '06 ;-)

post #122

D'oh! :p You got me there!

(Though you called a click-wheel, whereas I called the touch-pad! ;) )

Ok, so 3 cases of "prior art". There's no way Apple can be awarded this patent... unless they were to have a Time Machine..... wait a minute!!eleventy1!!

[whooleytoo]

I hate new designs.

Change is not good:(

if it anint broke dont fix it!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

:eek:

Somewhere deep in Apple's R&D building, a puppy just died...

[RRK]

Well, I just picked up mine after reading the description. Using my right hand. Thumb goes along the right edge, last three fingers along the left. The pointer finger flits around the surface of the back.

I think the comfortable range on the back surface, though, is about 80% of the width and height of the unit, with "blind" spots along the right edge (next to the thumb) and the bottom edge and bottom-left corner. So, I'd map that slightly smaller rectangle to 95% of the front display, perhaps leaving just a few pixels around the edges controlled with the last 10% of each edge. Also, I think any precision movements would be more well suited to the "top" half of the device because of this, so I'd expect the scroll wheel to move up to the top instead of the bottom.

Is it really so hard for you guys to do? That seems very natural to me, and no less ergonomic than trying to do fine motor movements with my thumb on the current iPod.

I sit squarely in the "brilliant" camp. It's a classic Apple design. It'd be nice to see it get to production.


Ok, so in a wide/hotdog position you hold the ipod with your right hand. I can only reach a small part of the back of my iPod with my index finger. The patent talks about going beyond just scroll wheal functionality. Typing would be almost impossible not to mention slow since you cant use two hands. Show me a picture if you think I've got it wrong.

I think holding the iPod along the boarder of the screen with one hand and using your free hand to operate the touch controls on the back may work OK, or hold it with just your thumbs and then you have pretty good movement but it seems kind of easy to drop in that position. This patent still seems very unlikely to me.

[shamino]

This is EXACTLY the kind of terrible idea that makes Apple so innovative and creative :) Luckily, it tends to be the better ideas that make it to shelves.
Bingo. This patent is to stop others from getting this type of functionality and making it dificult for them to inovate. Mean time Apple has time to leap the competition again.
This is not at all surprising. If you're an innovative company, you are going to have teams of people brainstorming all kinds of novel concepts. Nobody expects them all to become products - your team comes up with several hundred concepts, most of which never get beyond the "concept document" stage. A few of the best ones go further, to an actual design document, and to engineering mock-ups. The ones that go over best at that stage make their way to products. All the rest fall by the wayside.

But during all this work, you file a patent application for every concept you can. You need this as protection - someone else may be developing the same idea at the same time. Without the patent, they can sue you, even though you never saw their product during your R&D. With the patent, either they won't sue (because the patent is yours) or you'll have a portfolio of other patents to threaten counter-suit with.

[oscuh]

I hate new designs.

Change is not good:(

if it anint broke dont fix it!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I guess we should all be driving cars that look like the Gremlin and working on green text on black screens non-GUI computers then, too! Oh wait, then we wouldn't have this board for people to complain on ...

[whooleytoo]

But during all this work, you file a patent application for every concept you can. You need this as protection - someone else may be developing the same idea at the same time. Without the patent, they can sue you, even though you never saw their product during your R&D. With the patent, either they won't sue (because the patent is yours) or you'll have a portfolio of other patents to threaten counter-suit with.

This post reminds me why I despise the patent system.

[IHateUserNames]

This just seems a bit awkward to me. How easy is it to select thing you can't really see?

The touch-sensitive area on the back will probably be something that works like a track pad.
Who looks at his track pad when working with a laptop computer? You just look at the cursor on your display while touching the track pad with your hands. Plain and simple.
This new iPod will work the same (with the exception that the track pad will be located on the back of the device, which makes sense because you hold an iPod in your hand). Brilliant idea. Bring it on, Steve!

[shamino]

This post reminds me why I despise the patent system.
Me too, but right or wrong, every company has to play the game or they get screwed over by everybody else.

[freddiecable]

does not make any sense to me. the iPhone is developed to be interacted with through/on the screen. this is certainly an offspring from research that might be usable. why would I buy a "backside" ipod when I can buy a "frontside" iPhone? why wouldn't the next generation work the way the iPhone works?

[RRK]

The touch-sensitive area on the back will probably be something that works like a track pad.
Who looks at his track pad when working with a laptop computer? You just look at the cursor on your display while touching the track pad with your hands. Plain and simple.
This new iPod will work the same (with the exception that the track pad will be located on the back of the device, which makes sense because you hold an iPod in your hand). Brilliant idea. Bring it on, Steve!

It's not a trackpad, the patent shows a keyboard. What you do on the back would be mirrored on the display on the front, like a graphics tablet, not just pushing around a curser like a mouse/trackball/trackpad.

[Muzukun]

meh... don't think I'd be a fan of it. I don't stare at the scroll wheel or anything but I like the way a single one sided setup handles. Guess user testing would show that part after awhile >.>

[Aldyn]

i don't like the idea of using my index finger on the bottom side. i like using my thumb to navigate.

[jouster]

And what about the "cases" industry? They would have a hard time figuring out a case for it.

Cheers

I'm sure that will be Apple's primary concern.

[pnyc]

The idea in itself seams so cool, but who knows how it'll be carried out.