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TheWitePony
Jun 24, 2003, 07:38 PM
Hey

I'll get right to the point, as I just realized this a few moments ago. I get paid on Thursday, which is a big deal for me cause now I can afford a 15" pb. And as much as I would have liked it, no G5 pb yesterday...oh well. However, the 15" are desperately due for an update, right?? I mean, first of all they aren't up with the latest tech like the 12 and 17, plus those price drops(which seemed oh so perfectly timed for a WWDC update). Not to mention they haven't had an update since November of last year. So, am I right to assume we are CERTAIN to see some kind of an update before the end of the year, if not MUCH sooner?

That being said, the most logical time for such an update would be MWNY, right? .....another month :( . I just hope I can restrain myself from doing something rash; I have been known to be sort of an impulsive buyer at times. I have never owned a Mac and I have longed for one ever since OSX was released.

I pray the updates come sooner, rather than later...

QCassidy352
Jun 24, 2003, 07:51 PM
I dunno man, I've been saying for months that people should wait because the 15"ers just *had* to be right around the corner. Problem is, I'm still left here saying that while apple makes a liar out of me. I'm stunned that there are no G5 powerbooks, not really because I expected G5s so much as I couldn't see any other explanation for not at least bringing the 15" up to speed with the others. The Tibooks are old now - very old. I simply can't understand why there wasn't a minor update months ago if there is no G5 overhaul coming (as now seems to be the case).

So I guess I have to say keep waiting, becuase there *have* to be updates coming. But of course, I was saying the same thing in april. :confused:

Rezet
Jun 24, 2003, 08:12 PM
Well, I make it very simple. I will get a powerbook 15" as soon apple gets on the with the program, I'll buy it. If they want my money, and thousands of people like me who are not gonna buy overpriced gagbage Ti books, they better introduce G5 books asap. PERIOD.



P.S. Maybe at macwold thingy in july they will do something about it.

KBFinFan
Jun 24, 2003, 08:20 PM
From the MacCentral article on the main page of this site, I get the feeling we'll see the new G4 Al Books soon.... but a G5 laptop is something I'd expect next year at the WWDC

-kb

Rezet
Jun 24, 2003, 08:31 PM
Well, whatever, even if they made 1.25 G4 pbook for 1999. hat would be good enough. As we can't predict how long it will take for G5 books.

King Cobra
Jun 24, 2003, 08:34 PM
My advice:

Don't wait forever. Take one for the team. If you give in now, you get a 1GHz processor, a 60GB Hard Drive, and Superdrive.

If you can wait, then you will be rewarded eventually, but not soon.

Perhaps come MWNY2003 there will be new Powerbooks. But if so, I strongly doubt it will carry the G5 processor. I say this because Apple has spent so much time in perfecting the G5 desktop machine that Apple should spend the time and effort to perfect the G5 portable.

Rezet
Jun 24, 2003, 08:50 PM
Dude, I think most people would settle for G4 at this point. Just do the damn minor upgrades. Like bump the speed to 1.25Ghz G4. Put good DDR memory in. Fast firewire, airport ex, new casing. That's pretty much what I need. for $1999 I'd buy it.
After all, macs go down in price slower than Pcs, if they come up with G5 pbooks like by next year, I can sell it, chip in some money and get the new one if I need. But sorry, I dont hink 867 G4 with Sdram for 2K bucks cuts it this day.

Anyone with me?

ZildjianKX
Jun 24, 2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Rezet
Dude, I think most people would settle for G4 at this point. Just do the damn minor upgrades. Like bump the speed to 1.25Ghz G4. Put good DDR memory in. Fast firewire, airport ex, new casing. That's pretty much what I need. for $1999 I'd buy it.
After all, macs go down in price slower than Pcs, if they come up with G5 pbooks like by next year, I can sell it, chip in some money and get the new one if I need. But sorry, I dont hink 867 G4 with Sdram for 2K bucks cuts it this day.

Anyone with me?

How can they try to market a G4 PB after having the vastly faster 2 GHz towers? Clock for clock the G5s are suppose to be faster than the G4s too. $3000 for an outdated laptop? G5s compete with P4s... and they have high end P4 laptops... how does that make G4 laptops look?

G4 < G5
G5 = P4
G4 < P4
G4 Laptop < P4 Laptop

Screw powerbooks... and they call them a pro line. :mad:

King Cobra
Jun 24, 2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX G4 < G5
G5 = P4
G4 < P4
G4 Laptop < P4 Laptop

Screw powerbooks... and they call them a pro line. :mad: [/B]

The series of four mathmatical comparisons of different processors quotes above are both true and false in three out of four circumstances.

G4 < G5 is the only true statement.

Re: G5 = P4

Incorrect. Specific Photoshop tests run faster than a P4, because the application is specifically designed to fit the needs of the architectural velocity engine engraved on the G5s. The P4 is faster at scrolling tests and certain specific gaming tests.

Re: G4 < P4

Incorrect. Refer to the previous argument.

The only difference is more Photoshop tests make the statement true, and more gaming tests make the statement further true.

Re: G4 Laptop < P4 Laptop

Incorrect. Refer to the second previous argument, and refer to the G4 Laptop instead of G5.

ZildjianKX
Jun 24, 2003, 09:22 PM
There is no approximate key, so I used "=". The G4 laptops are still a joke compared to high end P4 laptops (especially for the price). I'm very dissapointed with apple at the present time.

oomega1
Jun 24, 2003, 09:41 PM
i am thinking if they do a minor update on the 15inch its really stupid. I rather they put their money into making a nice product then to just do minor updates. Although there was an article already an yahoo article saying there will be no g5 for a long time to come on the NEW POWERBOOKS, and that motorola is here to stay. But only ibm is able to take it to the next level tells me, hmm geez not much improvements for the new powerbook, the only thing they will add is the basics ? air extreme, al case, and fw800 a maybe? maybe a new graphics card?. i dont know. And more $$$$ And so all that to come and delay was sars? Just coming to conclusion that the speed enchancements are probably there and capable, i wouldn't buy one till then. But then i'm already upset when steve mentioned the 12 inch and the 17 inch then the pause. As if he was gonna mention the new 15inch pb or some type of road map. He knew exactly what we were waiting for and made everyone hold their breathe. bleh.

Rezet
Jun 24, 2003, 09:45 PM
Well, Here is a deal.

Sony Notebook that is P4 2.66 Ghz is $1399.

Mac is G4 867 Mhz is $1999.


Do you think that G4 867 Mhz can beat 2.66 Ghz Sony at anything? Seriously! I mean I doubt that even photoshop is going to save 867Mhz G4.

Well forget the 867 Mhz. HOw about 1Ghz G4? for $2399. It's a $1000 more but do u think it can compete with Sony laptop?
Pro Line is a Joke, and I agree.


Well, I have a better question. How about if they mac G4 1.25Ghz. Do you think it will be able to compete with 2.66 PC?


Specs for Sony can be found here (If link works):

http://www.circuitcity.com/detail.jsp?c=1&b=g&catoid=-8026&qp=0&bookmark=bookmark_4&oid=73942

cb911
Jun 24, 2003, 10:12 PM
i'm also waiting for a PowerBook. desprately waiting.

i'm starting to doubt that G5 PB's will be here before the end of the year, but hey. it is Apple, and they do like to surprise.

but i'd be happy if the new 15" had the same features as the 17" and only a 1.2GHz G4.

Rezet
Jun 24, 2003, 10:19 PM
Doubt G5 books will apear earlier than maybe a year away from now.
At this point it seems that if you need Desktop, Get G5 powermac, if you want Laptop, get PC. 2.6 P4 Sony is only $1400. Seems to me a like a good deal comparing to G4 pbooks.

I have to decide now. Whether I want G5 Pmac or Pc laptop.
I cant wait another year. I have work and I have college starting this september. And that the longest i can wait.

Paladin
Jun 24, 2003, 10:23 PM
Uhh...maybe the G5s aren't ready for mobile use. Did they release the G4 Powerbooks with the G4 Power Macs? As of right now, I think the G5s would run too hot and drain the battery too quickly. When they're ready, they will be released. Just because you want one, it doesn't necessarily mean that Apple has the ability to make it happen. And why would they steal the thunder from the new towers? Be patient, notebooks always get the new processors after the desktops.

Wyrm
Jun 24, 2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Rezet
Doubt G5 books will apear earlier than maybe a year away from now.
At this point it seems that if you need Desktop, Get G5 powermac, if you want Laptop, get PC. 2.6 P4 Sony is only $1400. Seems to me a like a good deal comparing to G4 pbooks.

I have to decide now. Whether I want G5 Pmac or Pc laptop.
I cant wait another year. I have work and I have college starting this september. And that the longest i can wait.

That's an odd comparison - and it mainly depends on what software you have or need. I don't see much of a comparison based on performance, since laptops aren't real performers in any sense of the word.

I'll tell you what I prefer and why:

OSX is a great OS, for me, but then I like UNIX.

The Powerbooks are "cooler", in my opinion and more of an engineer's laptop than a Wintel one. I find they are built better, and have more thought into their design. I've seen some strange Wintel laptops - enough for me to believe that the people designing the case and the innards, never meet.

If my experience is any testament, then in 1, maybe 2 years that Sony is going to feel slow, or die althogether (not Sony's fault really - only if you run Windows), (Sony will probably stop supporting it too), you'll be lucky to get sleep to work (a P4 laptop doesn't go very fast when it has crashed), and god-forbid if your configuration gets messed up. Keep those recovery disks handy! I got a Sony 505 after my Mac... I still use my Mac, and the Sony is a bookend.

I still use a Pismo (Powerbook 2000), and dang, it ain't fast, but it works really well - with every OS upgrade it works faster (unlike Windows stuff) - I also use Windows, and although it's getting better, I find I still need to re-install every couple of month to clear out the garbage. I've never re-installed (just upgraded) since 10.0 on my Mac. Why haven't I upgraded the laptop? Well, I've never HAD to - and that is the PowerBook for you.

On Windows, I always find I need to fiddle with something to get it to work right. If you like doing that, great, then a Wintel box is for you.

If you use Linux on the other hand, it's a toss up, but then I find OS X has more eye-candy. It's the simple things in life, like being able to do what you want to do, that make life better.

You have to decide for yourself if the price difference is worth it. I think it is.

-Wyrm

Rezet
Jun 24, 2003, 11:51 PM
Well, to me it seems like you are just a PC basher.
Looks are good, but i dont have to sit there all day and look at how cool icon looks and admire Pbook's stylish design. I have stuff to do.
I don't really know what upgrades you are talking about, I'm currently on PC and have been on pc for over 10 years now. And although I had problems with pretty much all of then :( I still don't consider this a current Pbook offer - a good value. I was looking to switch to apple mainly because i thought G5 will be faster and we use macs in school more often. I agree that Pc isnt that great of a machine, but cmon, do u really think its worth to pay over a thousand more for a slower computer just so that a computer looks cool and perhaps crashes little less?
I do admire OS X and that is a big part of why i want to switch, but apple isn't making switching easy. If I was driving BMW 7x and lived in a "crib", maybe I didn't care that much. But College is expensive and car payments bite too. Im not complaining about money problem, and hapend it to be upgraded, i wouldnt complain about money at all. But at this point, I think your argument is weak.

Rezet
Jun 25, 2003, 12:05 AM
BTW, they said they ar eshipping G5 in august. But is it in the beginning of august or end?
Also, In official mac stores, do they have working prototypes there to take a look at?

PB180
Jun 25, 2003, 12:27 AM
Hey Rezet, this is a *Mac* fan/rumor site... most of us frequent the boards because we believe that our Macs are superior to the PCs we could have bought!

Sure, the PM G5 is out now, and it kicks ass. But the PowerBook line was sweet last week, and they are still nice machines now. Plus, as a student, you can get some great deals on new Macs. (esp. check out the 12" PB...) Plus, a new mac will last forever... I used my trusty PowerBook 180 as an everyday computer until I upgraded to an iBook last year. (my desktops were on a more regular upgrade schedule!). That trusty PowerBook still works, but it now belongs to my younger sister.

That said, I'm dying for a new 15", and I'd be happy if they just changed the case, added Airport Extreme, BT, and a faster G4... I just want it soon!

Wyrm
Jun 25, 2003, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by Rezet
Well, to me it seems like you are just a PC basher.
Looks are good, but i dont have to sit there all day and look at how cool icon looks and admire Pbook's stylish design. I have stuff to do.
I don't really know what upgrades you are talking about, I'm currently on PC and have been on pc for over 10 years now. And although I had problems with pretty much all of then :( I still don't consider this a current Pbook offer - a good value. I was looking to switch to apple mainly because i thought G5 will be faster and we use macs in school more often. I agree that Pc isnt that great of a machine, but cmon, do u really think its worth to pay over a thousand more for a slower computer just so that a computer looks cool and perhaps crashes little less?
I do admire OS X and that is a big part of why i want to switch, but apple isn't making switching easy. If I was driving BMW 7x and lived in a "crib", maybe I didn't care that much. But College is expensive and car payments bite too. Im not complaining about money problem, and hapend it to be upgraded, i wouldnt complain about money at all. But at this point, I think your argument is weak.

Ha ha ha. PC Basher? No. Wintel Basher, sure why not? I've used both - and I currently like the Mac better.

Re: Good value.
That's why I tried to make my post "in my opinion". For me, I'd rather have stability than speed. UNIX than Win32, OSX over Windows, I like less frustration. $1000? To me IT IS worth it: better built, stable, less frustration, some cool candy and style that lasts much longer than a Wintel box. To me, these are worth more than pure speed. For you, well, you need to choose what is best for you.

Buying a computer is like flushing money down the toilet anyways - but I've found I can flush money down slower with my Mac than a Wintel (usually a big chunky-corny-dump all at once). Is this worth $1000 more upfront? In my opinion, yes.

In a year, both the PowerBook and the Wintel are going to be slow, and outdated - which one ages better? Everyone I know that has a Mac has been pretty satisfied, there is always something new to discover that makes life better, and fun, even when they know it is slower than a cheaper Wintel. People I know who buy Wintels ALWAYS refer to it as a "PIECE OF ****" (excuse me) after a while (pretty much without exception).. sometimes they use more colorful words, you do the TCO math. ;)

If you need pure speed, well, then you should be looking at a desktop. Portability vs speed is always a trade-off. I use my PBook for taking it with me, I don't use it for heavy calculations - so in this case I can use it as long as it works. So far so good.

-Wyrm

Rezet
Jun 25, 2003, 12:52 AM
Well, Wyrm, i agree with many things you say.
Computers, cars ... they arent good investments at all. And I DO realize macs age slower. That's one of the PRO points in my opinion. You right at that if i buy a pc, in a 2 yars it will be worth around 400 bucks. While Pbook may still be worth over a thousand. Having to look at ebay at how much 500 Mhz ti still costs, I must admit that you are right.

Well, maybe you are right on this.

OK can u answer a few questions then?
How much is 1ghz 15" pbook is lower than 2.6Ghz P4 laptop overall, would you say? In percents.
Also Do you think SDRAM slows down 15" alot comparing to DDR?
WHich one would you say is FASTER 12" Pbook or 1Ghz 15"? And why? And Do you think even though 12" uses DDR and 15" SDRAM, it affects performance at all?
And just to know how fast 15" is, for myself, since i never worked with macs for real, If I launched Unreal Tournament on it which is G4 733 req speed, do u think it would go smoothly? would 12" perform better/worse?
And last, do you think it's a good choice to buy 15" now?

beefcake
Jun 25, 2003, 01:06 AM
I really want to get a PB, I'll admit that. However, it gets harder and harder to justify it every day. I know it will age slower, but it's difficult to get over the fact that it is slower and more expensive. I really want someone to convince me it's the right purchase to make.

Schiffi
Jun 25, 2003, 01:12 AM
I bought a 1Ghz 15" PowerBook. I also got 1024Mb of RAM. Believe me it is fast.

What? you saying a PC can open a photoshop document 3secs faster! I guess I put my money it the wrong place, eh?

Personally, I am a patient man. Even though my computer is not the fastest, I do have the pleasure of conecting to networks w/o having to know any settings, having few crashes (none to make my sys unresponsive), using the best browser ever, iLife, and no Microsoft Windows! Now don't get me wrong Windows is good for somethings, namely an abundance of games. However, these "toys" do not let me choose my computer choice. I am a little let down w/o Airport Extreme, since I will be left out of g networks. I just hope my college will use b in the libraries. Now I can deal with apps opening a few seconds slower than many cheaper PC substiutes, but I consider my Mac of higher quality than these PCs. I'm hoping to make my powerbook last through college, so as long as I won't break it, I'll be set.

I didn't get applecare because the price is really high, and I've never needed a warrenty before. Except when someone broke my non-apple MP3 player a few years ago...

Rezet
Jun 25, 2003, 01:15 AM
Beef, that is my feeling exactly.
Maybe I should consider G5 Pmac?
My choices right now:

PB 15" 1GHz
Sony P4 2.66Ghz
Pmac G5 1.8 Ghz. (not sure if i really should trade great speed for mobility)

ZildjianKX
Jun 25, 2003, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by Rezet
Well, Here is a deal.

Sony Notebook that is P4 2.66 Ghz is $1399.

Mac is G4 867 Mhz is $1999.


Do you think that G4 867 Mhz can beat 2.66 Ghz Sony at anything? Seriously! I mean I doubt that even photoshop is going to save 867Mhz G4.

Well forget the 867 Mhz. HOw about 1Ghz G4? for $2399. It's a $1000 more but do u think it can compete with Sony laptop?
Pro Line is a Joke, and I agree.


Well, I have a better question. How about if they mac G4 1.25Ghz. Do you think it will be able to compete with 2.66 PC?


Specs for Sony can be found here (If link works):

http://www.circuitcity.com/detail.jsp?c=1&b=g&catoid=-8026&qp=0&bookmark=bookmark_4&oid=73942

I really agree with you.

I had all my money set to buy the latest and greatest PB that Apple was going to reveal... but I feel there is no point now. I felt that boosting the powerbooks to a G5 would give enough of a speed boost to justify the handsome purchase. Since that's not going to happen now, I guess I'll spend my money elsewhere.

Edit- Anyone feel frustrated that they think Apple might be trying to screw them over by saying no G5 PBs just so you'll go out and buy one, then 3 months later a G5 PB comes out?

Rezet
Jun 25, 2003, 01:57 AM
Well, It's a tricky question really. I know for sure that if I buy 15" Pbook it will have enough power to satisfy me right now. but i feel uneasy about investing into technology that is well outdated that costs plenty more than faster pc counter parts.
It also kinda pushes away that I always feel that it will get upgraded soon after i buy it, and i end up getting screwed up.
And for me personally, that 133 sdram is a real pain. at some moments i feel that 12" book is faster.

Dunno what to do. Well I guess i have a month left to decide.

Wyrm
Jun 25, 2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Rezet
Well, Wyrm, i agree with many things you say.
Computers, cars ... they arent good investments at all. And I DO realize macs age slower. That's one of the PRO points in my opinion. You right at that if i buy a pc, in a 2 yars it will be worth around 400 bucks. While Pbook may still be worth over a thousand. Having to look at ebay at how much 500 Mhz ti still costs, I must admit that you are right.

Well, maybe you are right on this.

OK can u answer a few questions then?
How much is 1ghz 15" pbook is lower than 2.6Ghz P4 laptop overall, would you say? In percents.
Also Do you think SDRAM slows down 15" alot comparing to DDR?
WHich one would you say is FASTER 12" Pbook or 1Ghz 15"? And why? And Do you think even though 12" uses DDR and 15" SDRAM, it affects performance at all?
And just to know how fast 15" is, for myself, since i never worked with macs for real, If I launched Unreal Tournament on it which is G4 733 req speed, do u think it would go smoothly? would 12" perform better/worse?
And last, do you think it's a good choice to buy 15" now?

I can try to answer some of these questions, but I don't have all the answers. Maybe others can be more precise.

Q. How much slower is a G4 15" than a 2.6Ghz P4 laptop?

WA: It depends on what you do. If you browse the internet, use Office v.X, etc (or rip the occasional MP3) like me - I don't think my Pismo (500Mhz G3) is "that" slow honestly. Sure it is technically much slower than everything on the market now, but honestly it hasn't made me pull out my hair - which has happened to me on a Sony VAIO (P3-750). My Mac always sleeps and wakes perfectly, and I've only restarted it when I've installed an update or upgraded the OS (otherwise I just put it to sleep) - that's actually pretty funny (ok I admit to a few more times, but basically I never restart it). My VAIO (windows 2k) HAS crashed, frozen, blue-screened, been partially non-responsive, and had spiraled into the disk thrash of death. I could never get drivers for the wheel without installing Sony's software bundle - which was too much to maintain sanity - and Sony's support was dreadful, and video drivers sucked. My friend's Vaio (1.3Ghz P3) using Windows XP home mostly blue screens when waking up from sleep, wireless depends on the direction of the wind (seems like it), it looks cheap (well it was cheaper), and it creaks (hard to describe) sometimes when you type or move it. Sure it has been the brunt of jokes and laughs, but it's not something you display without adding "yeah - but it was cheap."

With my Pismo, and 2 batteries I've gotten about 6 REAL hours untethered (I was shocked at first - since my previous Thinkpad/Stinkpad got about 1.5 hours out of the box - and my Vaio was lucky if it reached an hour). I'm not sure what you get on a P4 2.6 laptop? 3 years later, 1 good battery, I still get about 2 real hours... enough that I don't have to worry so much about an outlet. So when it comes to getting some work done, I've found my Pismo has never let me down, whereas all the Wintel machines I've used have. Sometimes losing a hour of work causes you to spend more than a hour trying to re-create what you had - not to mention lost hairs, stress, and suffering as the feeling of re-doing work is never a "good" feeling.

Comparing speeds in an ideal world, the Sony is faster, hands-down. I'd even wager the G5 is slower than a Dell Workstation (I take Apple marketing with a grain of salt) - but in practice, one selling point that I truly believe is you can get more done - and have less stomach-problems doing it.

Q. SDRAM vs. DDR RAM

WA: Well hard to tell for what I do, but I'm sure there IS a difference. From what I've seen I know video plays cleanly on a 15" vs say a 17" - but this may have more to do with the Radeon9000, which I think is better than the GeForce Go 440 whatever on the 17". The G4 wasn't really designed to use DDR memory, so maybe this eliminates any real advantage. Maybe some users who do Photoshop or something can swear by DDR, but I can't tell.

Q. WHich one would you say is FASTER 12" Pbook or 1Ghz 15"?

WA: I don't know. I'd say the 15" - but it all depends on how much DDR memory bandwidth affects what you are doing, because that looks to be about the only advantage of the 12". If the G4 bus bottleneck really makes DDR irrelevant, then that point is moot. I do like 802.11G however, and I can't believe that Apple hasn't sold a PCMCIA version - you can buy a Linksys one which works pretty good, but then it has to be external - you have to modify a file, and reload kernel extensions (not for the faint of heart). I went back to using Airport 802.11b because almost every update clobbers the PCMCIA file - when I want to transfer a huge file, plugging in the 100M ethernet is not so bad. Depends on your wireless needs.

Q. Unreal Tourney

WA: Can't answer this question. But the my friend said his 15" can play Warcraft III pretty good. Nothing like a desktop however - games are still better there.

Q. do you think it's a good choice to buy 15" now?

WA: The golden rule for computers: it is NEVER a good time to buy. Something new is always around the corner. Suffering that, I'd like to get a new 15" someday soon, but I'm going to wait until they update the 15", since my current powerbook is still good. If I had to buy now, 12" for me is too small - maybe I'd go for the 17" over the 15" but that would be a tough call because I like 15" form better. Maybe you can haggle a better deal on the 15"?

I know buying something that has yesterday's buzzwords is hard, if not impossible to do - but I must admit, the stuff just works. In the end what is more important?

-Wyrm

Nermal
Jun 25, 2003, 04:18 AM
Originally posted by Paladin
Did they release the G4 Powerbooks with the G4 Power Macs?

No. They were 16 months apart. The G3s on the other hand both came out in the same month (maybe even the same day).

Lyle
Jun 25, 2003, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by Rezet
BTW, they said they are shipping G5 in august. But is it in the beginning of august or end?It would have been the end of August, but some people who have placed orders for the new PowerMacs are reporting that Apple has already started pushing back those shipping dates to early September.

Lyle
Jun 25, 2003, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by Schiffi
I bought a 1Ghz 15" PowerBook. I also got 1024Mb of RAM. Believe me it is fast.This is a little off-topic, but as a potential "switcher" I was wondering about whether I'd want to spring for the extra 512Mb of RAM if I get the 15" PowerBook as planned. Schiffi, did you buy all of the memory up-front, or did you start out with the standard 512Mb and later decide that you needed the additional RAM? Do you have some special circumstances (e.g. large scientific calculations, maybe heavy-duty graphics work) that necessitate the extra memory, or do you believe that the standard 512 Mb of RAM is going to be inadequate for most users?

MacBoyX
Jun 25, 2003, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Rezet
Well, It's a tricky question really. I know for sure that if I buy 15" Pbook it will have enough power to satisfy me right now. but i feel uneasy about investing into technology that is well outdated that costs plenty more than faster pc counter parts.
It also kinda pushes away that I always feel that it will get upgraded soon after i buy it, and i end up getting screwed up.
And for me personally, that 133 sdram is a real pain. at some moments i feel that 12" book is faster.

Dunno what to do. Well I guess i have a month left to decide.

Rezet,

Do us all a favor and get the damn SONY. If you have to argue this much and you are already a PC user you don't really want a Mac.

Remember this...avg pc life is 2 yrs...avg Mac life is 6. The Sony maybe cheaper now, but in the long run the TCO and enjoyment of the Mac is better.

No Windows machine is a better deal than a Mac simply because of OS X. The stablity and feature set can't be matched. If you want a PB, then either wait til July to see if they are updated to AlBooks but DO NOT hold your breath nor make angry statements about G5 PowerBooks. I grow weary of saying the following but apparently it bears repeating:

1. There was nothing wrong with TiBooks before Monday, there is nothing wrong with them now. They are not garbage simply because Apple announced a new chip.

2. Apple is a company that has to satisfy shareholders, they are not in the business to give away product. It would be STUPID of Apple to release a G5 PB any time soon. So many people like laptops that it would hurt PowerMac and Cinema Display Sales, so every should stop thinking it's around the corner.

3. It's never a bad idea to buy one version back on a Apple product especially one that has been around for so long, get a better deal on a good machine.

So... it's as simple as this...if you want to switch, watch for MW Creative Expo (there is no more MWNY) folks, and don't be suprised if there are no new PB's i mean Steve's not even giving the keynote.

Or just buy one now and be amazed at how much you'll love it.

Or...like I said earlier..get the Sony and leave us alone.

You earlier called MAC FANS on a MAC Site PC Bashers as you steadily bash Apple and tell us how bad they are...

We don't need switchers that badly.

Sorry for the abruptness but I get tired of people bashing Apple in our own forums.

Macs Rock, Apple Rules...

MacBoyX

Rezet
Jun 25, 2003, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by MacBoyX
Rezet,

Do us all a favor and get the damn SONY. If you have to argue this much and you are already a PC user you don't really want a Mac.

Remember this...avg pc life is 2 yrs...avg Mac life is 6. The Sony maybe cheaper now, but in the long run the TCO and enjoyment of the Mac is better.

No Windows machine is a better deal than a Mac simply because of OS X. The stablity and feature set can't be matched. If you want a PB, then either wait til July to see if they are updated to AlBooks but DO NOT hold your breath nor make angry statements about G5 PowerBooks. I grow weary of saying the following but apparently it bears repeating:

1. There was nothing wrong with TiBooks before Monday, there is nothing wrong with them now. They are not garbage simply because Apple announced a new chip.

2. Apple is a company that has to satisfy shareholders, they are not in the business to give away product. It would be STUPID of Apple to release a G5 PB any time soon. So many people like laptops that it would hurt PowerMac and Cinema Display Sales, so every should stop thinking it's around the corner.

3. It's never a bad idea to buy one version back on a Apple product especially one that has been around for so long, get a better deal on a good machine.

So... it's as simple as this...if you want to switch, watch for MW Creative Expo (there is no more MWNY) folks, and don't be suprised if there are no new PB's i mean Steve's not even giving the keynote.

Or just buy one now and be amazed at how much you'll love it.

Or...like I said earlier..get the Sony and leave us alone.

You earlier called MAC FANS on a MAC Site PC Bashers as you steadily bash Apple and tell us how bad they are...

We don't need switchers that badly.

Sorry for the abruptness but I get tired of people bashing Apple in our own forums.

Macs Rock, Apple Rules...

MacBoyX



MacBoy, first off manage your anger. I never put down apple. If I wanted to put it down, I wouldn't be considering switching to it.
I just told you the truth that you are afraid to hear. Macs are slower than PCs, but that is not the case. All I was asking is opinion of why I should get Pbook over Sony when it is so cheap.
Where did I say that apple sucks? In fact I actually said that PCs suck and all the PCs I had, I had problems with. I was asking for opinions and expressed my own opinion at the time based on just raw numbers.
And your attitutude really stinks. I'm not the only one who expected update. And If apple did what it should have done a while ago and atleast upgraded 15" (I'm not talking about G5), I would have already ordered myself a Pbook.
Wyrmy gave me good reasons why mac is still better and I thank him for taking time. What have you done? For potential switcher, you just pushed one away with your attitude. See I don't know macs, I don't know how great they are and how great they work. And it's nice that someone took some time to explain.

Peace

smurphur
Jun 25, 2003, 10:57 PM
Does Apple always give the latest OS release with their laptops? So when Panter is released the laptops will come bundled with that OSX instead of Jaguar? I too am going to switch, but it's just a matter of saving up money for now... so luckly I can wait for quite some time. Though the more and more I wait the more I look at Apple's student loan program. I would just rather have Panter instead of Jaguar after seeing the keynotes and all the features it inclues... and since I don't really have all that much money to throw around, spending another 100 on an os update a few months later kind of sucks.

Wyrm
Jun 26, 2003, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by smurphur
Does Apple always give the latest OS release with their laptops? So when Panter is released the laptops will come bundled with that OSX instead of Jaguar? I too am going to switch, but it's just a matter of saving up money for now... so luckly I can wait for quite some time. Though the more and more I wait the more I look at Apple's student loan program. I would just rather have Panter instead of Jaguar after seeing the keynotes and all the features it inclues... and since I don't really have all that much money to throw around, spending another 100 on an os update a few months later kind of sucks.

When the release is close you have to check the specs to find what version it ships with, especially when you buy retail. Otherwise you have to install it yourself. Up to now, I think Apple has always given the latest OS when it has been released (but it might be just the disks) - unless I am mistaken?

-Wyrm

nydoofus
Jun 26, 2003, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Wyrm
When the release is close you have to check the specs to find what version it ships with, especially when you buy retail. Otherwise you have to install it yourself. Up to now, I think Apple has always given the latest OS when it has been released (but it might be just the disks) - unless I am mistaken?

-Wyrm

I'd guess that any new hardware release close to the Panther upgrade might contain a "coupon" for the newer version.

MacBoyX
Jun 26, 2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Rezet
MacBoy, first off manage your anger. I never put down apple. If I wanted to put it down, I wouldn't be considering switching to it.
I just told you the truth that you are afraid to hear. Macs are slower than PCs, but that is not the case. All I was asking is opinion of why I should get Pbook over Sony when it is so cheap.
Where did I say that apple sucks? In fact I actually said that PCs suck and all the PCs I had, I had problems with. I was asking for opinions and expressed my own opinion at the time based on just raw numbers.
And your attitutude really stinks. I'm not the only one who expected update. And If apple did what it should have done a while ago and atleast upgraded 15" (I'm not talking about G5), I would have already ordered myself a Pbook.
Wyrmy gave me good reasons why mac is still better and I thank him for taking time. What have you done? For potential switcher, you just pushed one away with your attitude. See I don't know macs, I don't know how great they are and how great they work. And it's nice that someone took some time to explain.

Peace

There was no anger in this post, frustration maybe.

Being a Switcher my self, I would tell you as I did in my post, if you're gonna get a Mac get one. Stop comparing them to PCs. Sorry they aren't the same. You can not in my opinion compare a Sony to an Apple. Apple are better.

I just think anyone who is debating it this much and can make the following statement...
Originally posted by Rezet
Well, I make it very simple. I will get a powerbook 15" as soon apple gets on the with the program, I'll buy it. If they want my money, and thousands of people like me who are not gonna buy overpriced gagbage Ti books, they better introduce G5 books asap. PERIOD.

...isn't serious abt wanting an Apple.

I surely hope that you get one. Not for my sake or Apple sake but for your own. I have no STOCK in whether or not someone switches, I did switch, I know who makes the best computer in the world, I'll never go back.

No matter what questions you ask about Performance, Speed, and Price you're missing what is means to be an Apple user...

It's being differnet, it's knowing that someone is building a computer with you in mind, it's knowing that you have something that's more than just a little bit better than the other things out there.

I'd encourage you to get out of ur Windows/PC mentality of the fastest is what i need. No one needs a Ferrari, but everyone wants one. It's the same with Macs to me.

Also I don't know that a rumor board is a good place for switchers because people on this thing bitch abt things that dont effect every mac user.

bottom line is this... the G4 is not slow. It's fast. It's not garbage, it's a great processor. Buying one now means u'll have a great machine for 6 yrs.

Wait til july to see if they update to Aluminium but even if you don't simply because urs doesnt look the same or have a G5 won't make it a crap machine.

Sorry for taking my frustration out on the boards, but it really ges me fired up.

MacBoyX

jxyama
Jun 26, 2003, 11:40 AM
MacBoyX,

i agree with most of your points, even if they are coming out a bit more "hostile" (not to me, but maybe to others) than you really intend them to be.

it does NOT bother me when people come here to post things about PCs. it does NOT bother me when people come here to post that PCs are better for such and such reasons... (provided it's moderately true.)

what does bother me is when they complain about Macs because they are not PCs.

"unless Apple does this and that (speed, CPU, hardware, software, etc.), which are already available in PCs, i'm not going to buy one."

FINE. go get a PC, it's not like we don't know these facts. most of us are pretty knowledgeable about computers, period. despite the shortcomings, we choose Macs.

in the case of this post, i agree to a degree that 15" should be updated. and many people are waiting. post and rant away about apple needing to upgrade because he/she is tired of waiting - FINE. "threatening" us that they are gonna go the way of PCs because of apple's shortcoming - FINE, go do it, DON'T BOTHER TELLING US, WE DON'T CARE.

"why should i get a pbook instead of sony, which is cheaper and faster?"

a question like this drive me insane for some reasons:

1) some people happen to believe price and speed aren't the only thing involved in making a decision about the computer purchase.

2) #1 does not make those people "stupid" or "idiot" or whatever

3) consequently, we don't have to "justify" why we think like #1.

keyword is "justify"

people who ask these questions USUALLY assumes we are idiots or blind, or come off as if they do. if they are genuinely interested in knowing why we think like above, don't make us "justify." i just get the vibe all the time that they think it's their duty to make us see the light and put us on the defensive. that's not the way to ask questions.

this is quite long already so i might as well go overboard. :D

as an example, instead of:

"PCs are cheaper and faster than macs, why should i get a mac?"

say

"despite their general priciness and lack of cutting edge hardware [note: this could still come off as flamebait], people here seem to like macs a lot compared to PCs. could you tell me about aspects of macs that make them so appealing to you?"

MacBoyX
Jun 26, 2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by jxyama
MacBoyX,

i agree with most of your points, even if they are coming out a bit more "hostile" (not to me, but maybe to others) than you really intend them to be.

it does NOT bother me when people come here to post things about PCs. it does NOT bother me when people come here to post that PCs are better for such and such reasons... (provided it's moderately true.)

what does bother me is when they complain about Macs because they are not PCs.

"unless Apple does this and that (speed, CPU, hardware, software, etc.), which are already available in PCs, i'm not going to buy one."

FINE. go get a PC, it's not like we don't know these facts. most of us are pretty knowledgeable about computers, period. despite the shortcomings, we choose Macs.

in the case of this post, i agree to a degree that 15" should be updated. and many people are waiting. post and rant away about apple needing to upgrade because he/she is tired of waiting - FINE. "threatening" us that they are gonna go the way of PCs because of apple's shortcoming - FINE, go do it, DON'T BOTHER TELLING US, WE DON'T CARE.

"why should i get a pbook instead of sony, which is cheaper and faster?"

a question like this drive me insane for some reasons:

1) some people happen to believe price and speed aren't the only thing involved in making a decision about the computer purchase.

2) #1 does not make those people "stupid" or "idiot" or whatever

3) consequently, we don't have to "justify" why we think like #1.

keyword is "justify"

people who ask these questions USUALLY assumes we are idiots or blind, or come off as if they do. if they are genuinely interested in knowing why we think like above, don't make us "justify." i just get the vibe all the time that they think it's their duty to make us see the light and put us on the defensive. that's not the way to ask questions.

Thanks jxyama

It is very nice to know that someone agrees and understands.

MacBoyX

rastar
Jun 26, 2003, 12:41 PM
I've been following the discussion and looking for speed tests comparing powerbook with other wintel laptops without luck. I did however find specs comparing various Apple laptops and it can be found here:
http://www.macspeedzone.com/html/hardware/machine/comparison/portable/PowerBook.html

Otherwise I just wanted to say that on tuesday I had to make a tough decision and buy a 12"PB. What I had my heart set on was an updated 15" but I am under time pressure to buy so I went for extreme mobility instead. As far as speed goes, 90% of the time I don't think you will notice it. When you are clicking around the desktop you are normally using like less then 1% of your CPU power and ANY computer today is going to be snappy with current processors (or even slightly outdated ones like the G3's in iBooks). Unless you are doing video editing in the field a G4 867 or 1Ghz will never slow you down. If you do need the power then you can always go with the new G5. I have to admit that I am disappointed with the lethargic Pbook updates, but once I get my new 12" Pbook, I'll probably forget all about it. Afterall, up until now I've been using a G3 300 (overclocked to 350) for the last 4.5 years so it's all good:D One last thing, I have a friend who just bought a SONY 2 wks. ago and he said they just came out with a brand new model and design right after that, so regardless of which laptop you choose, rest assured that pretty soon it will be trumped by something bigger (or smaller) and better.

rueyeet
Jun 26, 2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by beefcake
I really want someone to convince me it's the right purchase to make.

Actually, that's the problem right there.

The facts of Mac vs. PC are pretty well known. So are the different factors that would influence a purchase--needs, availability, tolerance for obsolescence, OS preference, etc. The problem is wanting someone else to make the decision for you, or provide you the justification for what you already know you want to do.

Rezet (and beefcake):

No one can tell you the right thing to do. You're buying a computer for you, not for us. The best advice that anyone can give you is: do your research, read the reviews of the different systems, weigh your factors, and make your own decision. Find an OS X machine to play with at a local CompUSA or Apple store so you can find out whether you like it. Look at benchmarks for the applications you plan to run. Read various forums to get a feel for people's opinons on the different options (you can usually find threads to serve that purpose without starting them). That's all any of the rest of us would do in your position.

Whatever you end up buying, may it serve you long and well. :)

fred_garvin
Jun 26, 2003, 02:02 PM
The frustration here is that the Ti Book is the ONLY product Apple has not updated in 2003, and Q3 2003 begins July 1st. We have seen the towers updated TWICE since the 15" Powerbook was updated. How often does that happen? If the reality is that we won't see this update available until September or so, and the bump is only to a 1.3Ghz G4, then Apple should have quietly brought the 15" specs up to match the 17" around march or april and kept the price at 2799. Then they could have updated all 3 powerbooks in September to the 7457, and brought out the G5 powerbooks at WWDC 2004.

I want the stronger, scratch resistant AL case, I want the increased wireless range and stronger signal, I want the better keyboard, I want the better hinge. Fw800, bluetooth would be nice as well. The 17" is too big for my needs, and more money than I'd like to
spend.

In terms of speed, who doesn't want at least a little future proofing. Sure, no one here will likely ever use the Pixlet technology in Panther, but if you by a 12" powerbook today, there is already 1 feature of panther that you do not meet the requirements for. Next year at WWDC, Steve will announce another great feature and tell us, it will run on any mac at least as fast as "X". I don't want to have a < 1 year old powerbook, and find myself locked out of features built into the OS.

For real world use, here is what I would run typically: Apache, Tomcat, MySql, Oracle 9i DBMS, IntelliJ Idea Java Ide, a Sftp/Scp client, a cvs client, mail, wordX, safari with several windows/tabs open, iTunes, and iChat.

Can a TiBook or 17" AlBook with a gig of ram run all this smoothly without lagging? My G4 400 desktop cannot run half of these apps at a good speed, so I am forced to use my WinBlows desktop, until Apple offers the Powerbook that I really want.

crazzyeddie
Jun 26, 2003, 02:40 PM
I have a 15" Powerbook with 512mb RAM. It is very fast, in games, iTunes, anything.

That Sony... it sucks. It doesnt even have a decent vid card. It has a Radeon IGP (aka crap) with shared memory. My friend just got a Compaq with the same card, and doesn't even get 60fps at 800x600 on Quake3. On my Powerbook with the DEDICATED 64MB DDR Radeon 9000 I get nothing less than 100fps (usually 125fps), with the same config.

Also, the sony does NOT have built in wi-fi capability, which is a big deal. This means that you have to carry around yet another gadget with your laptop.

The Sony weighs 7.72lbs. The TiBook weighs 5.4. Also, with a 2.6ghz P4 I doubt it gets more than 2hrs of battery life, which means you would need another battery, which brings the weight up.

The Sony also has a 40GB hdd, which is 20 less than the Powerbook. I consider that alot of space (1/2 more on the powerbook).

Screen resolution on the Sony is only 1024x768. The powerbook has 1280x854 with the widescreen (which is AWESOME for movies).

No DVD burner on the Sony either. If you dont need one, buy the Mac without it. That brings the cost of the 1ghz to 2,399.

The lack of DDR RAM in the PowerBook DOES NOT affect it except in a few memory-only tests. Also, the powerbook 15" comes with two 256mb chips. I would HIGHLY suggest getting 1 512 chip instead (adds $100). This is important, because if you ever want to upgrade to 1GB or 768MB you would have to replace one of the chips instead of just adding one.

Overall, I see the PowerBook as the clear winner here. More hard drive space, better graphics, lighter, more battery life, wireless built-in, and the OS is much much better.

freundt
Jun 26, 2003, 03:15 PM
So here is the whole arguement as I see it.

>person a says: I don't want to buy a tibook now because it is 8 months old (more if you think about it) . In computers, months are like dog years. Even a sony would have been updated with new technologies (such as what ports it is, memeory chips, etcc) within that time frame

>person B says: It is still a good bargin, because you are getting OSX.

>person C says: If you want an apple portible, get the tibook now. period. Do not pass Go.

>person D says: Tibooks stink. They are overpriced and underpowered.

Did I miss anyone?

Personally, I'm waiting till the update and will be heartbroken if it is a minor speed bump ( < than 1.4 ghz)

err.. not sure of the point of this.. it's just that I hear the same above points over and over again. and felt the need to simplify them.

OIh and I forgot the person who says the powerbooks were good before the g5 came out and are good now. To that I say.. they weren't so hot before the g5, and look pretty darn worn out now.

Anyways... I'm rambling...

CubeHacker
Jun 26, 2003, 03:30 PM
The thing is, a G5 Powerbook might not even be that much faster, if at all, compared to a G4.

I think we all agree that we shouldn't expect anything faster than a ~1.2ghz G5 in a powerbook, if it were to be released, due to power and heat issues.

However, according to these benchmarks (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/wwdc03g5.html) taken on a Dual 2.0ghz G5, a 1.2ghz G5 might not even perform that well.
According to the benchmarks, a 1ghz G4 gets a base score of "100" across the board. The dual 2.0 G5 got a score of 172 for integer performance, 270 for FPU, and 208 for vector (altivec). That means for integer performance, a DUAL 2.0ghz g5 was not able to be even twice as fast as a 1ghz G4. How well do you think that a 1.2ghz G5 would fair then? FPU performance might be acceptable however. Maybe the G5 isn't all that we make it out to be.

chicagdan
Jun 26, 2003, 03:56 PM
From all the microprocessor rumors I've read recently, here's my best guess about the new 15" Al-PBs:

Version 1) Announced in August, starts shipping mid-September, uses the Motorola G4 7457 chip: 1.3 Mhz, 200mhz frontside bus, DDR 400, Airport Extreme, bluetooth, FW 800, optical audio out.

Version 2) Also announced in August, starts shipping late October, first-ever dual processor laptop (G4 7457, same specs as above.)

From all reports, the 7457 has incredibly low power consumption, making a dual processor laptop plausible for the first time ever. If version two is not out in the fall, I'd expect to see it early in 2004, available for both the 15 and 17 inch models.

alia
Jun 26, 2003, 04:24 PM
If you go go for a PC, don't get a Sony... they are POSes. I have a Vaio, and I absolutely hate it. I can't get anything done on it, and it runs really hot. Frankly, I think it runs so hot that it corrupts the hard drive, because you have to reinstall the OS after about a month of light use.

If you're going to make the PC-leap, at least get a Dell. I've had a P2 400 by Dell for 4 years and I've never even had to format my hard drive one. I haven't even had a DLL corrupt itself in 4 years.

Alia

MacBoyX
Jun 26, 2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by fred_garvin
The frustration here is that the Ti Book is the ONLY product Apple has not updated in 2003, and Q3 2003 begins July 1st. We have seen the towers updated TWICE since the 15" Powerbook was updated. How often does that happen?

This happens so they could focus on bring out the G5 Tower. Don't think it's not coincedental that Quark came out at the exact same time. Apple needs to get people who haven't switched to OS X and therefore haven't bought new machines to ante up. Sorry but the G5 Chip is worth the delay in PowerBooks.

If the reality is that we won't see this update available until September or so, and the bump is only to a 1.3Ghz G4, then Apple should have quietly brought the 15" specs up to match the 17" around march or april and kept the price at 2799. Then they could have updated all 3 powerbooks in September to the 7457, and brought out the G5 powerbooks at WWDC 2004.

If you really believe that Apple is just sitting on G5 PowerBooks you're wrong. Apple is NO WHERE near getting that system bus and all it's new technology into a PowerBook. It's time we start realising that just like OS X isn't another update to the MacOS, the G5 isn't just the next Chip, as Steve said in the Keynote, it's CHIP and SYSTEM.

Apple will get the G5 into a PowerBook when it can. They aren't the big kid in the sand box hogging all the toys while the rest of us suffer. Don't people realise WHAT IT TOOK TO GET US HERE? Years of dealing with the G4's issues, getting IBM back to the desktop market place, they didn't decide in January that a G5 in June would be fun, it's years in the making.

I want the stronger, scratch resistant AL case, I want the increased wireless range and stronger signal, I want the better keyboard, I want the better hinge. Fw800, bluetooth would be nice as well. The 17" is too big for my needs, and more money than I'd like to
spend.

Who can blame you for wanting the Al case, we all do, but I also want Apple to be around for a while...and that means the G5 is a higher priority.

Also keep in mind that the range of the Al books while better, is not as good still as the iBook's

In terms of speed, who doesn't want at least a little future proofing. Sure, no one here will likely ever use the Pixlet technology in Panther, but if you by a 12" powerbook today, there is already 1 feature of panther that you do not meet the requirements for. Next year at WWDC, Steve will announce another great feature and tell us, it will run on any mac at least as fast as "X". I don't want to have a < 1 year old powerbook, and find myself locked out of features built into the OS.

Umm...how do you figure? What feature are you locked out of? Pixlet will work in any Panther Mac. And again, Jaguar runs on a G3 beige, no one said it would rock but it does run on it. Should Apple make Panther to run on a MacIISE just because you own one?

For real world use, here is what I would run typically: Apache, Tomcat, MySql, Oracle 9i DBMS, IntelliJ Idea Java Ide, a Sftp/Scp client, a cvs client, mail, wordX, safari with several windows/tabs open, iTunes, and iChat.

Can a TiBook or 17" AlBook with a gig of ram run all this smoothly without lagging? My G4 400 desktop cannot run half of these apps at a good speed, so I am forced to use my WinBlows desktop, until Apple offers the Powerbook that I really want.

Ok wow...if you have a G4 400 you should expect all that stuff to run slow especially since you didn't tell us how much RAm you have, and it could be a Yikes which just sucked for graphics...

Also you cannot compare that to a PowerBook, i have a G3 iBook that runs all that with no problem. You don't need a G5 to run that stuff. You don't even need a G4, and NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO DO ANYTHING. Any Mac you buy today would be much better than your Windows Desktop.

Just because we think that Apple should have something done doesn't mean it is is available and that they are just not putting it out.

Research and Development takes time. Let's HOPE there are Albooks in store at MW Creative Expo. But remember it's just hope...they never promised us anything.

macboyx

fred_garvin
Jun 26, 2003, 06:36 PM
MacBoyX, I think you glossed over a few of my points.

Umm...how do you figure? What feature are you locked out of? Pixlet will work in any Panther Mac. And again, Jaguar runs on a G3 beige, no one said it would rock but it does run on it. Should Apple make Panther to run on a MacIISE just because you own one?

What's with the sarcasm? If you watch the stream of the keynote, Steve specifically said that "Pixlet will run on any mac with a 1 Ghz G4 or better, meaning you can run this on a Ti book." The 12" is not 1 Ghz or better, so according to Steve, it will not run Pixlet. Again, I'll likely never use pixlet, it is an example of the possibility of being locked out of OS technology very quickly.

Who can blame you for wanting the Al case, we all do, but I also want Apple to be around for a while...and that means the G5 is a higher priority.

The ibook does not cut it for me. You are assuming that the G5 tower project consumed all of apples resources and they had no bandwidth to do something relatively simple, make a 15.4" version of the 17". Many of us would have bought that at with a 1 Ghz G4, had it been out a few months ago. I don't see the G5 Pbook soon, I guessed WWDC 2004, 12 months from now.

My Sawtooth G4 400 has 640Megs. I am skeptical of your claim that an iBook can run all of the apps I listed at the same time with decent performance.

MacBoyX
Jun 26, 2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by fred_garvin
MacBoyX, I think you glossed over a few of my points.



What's with the sarcasm? If you watch the stream of the keynote, Steve specifically said that "Pixlet will run on any mac with a 1 Ghz G4 or better, meaning you can run this on a Ti book." The 12" is not 1 Ghz or better, so according to Steve, it will not run Pixlet. Again, I'll likely never use pixlet, it is an example of the possibility of being locked out of OS technology very quickly.



The ibook does not cut it for me. You are assuming that the G5 tower project consumed all of apples resources and they had no bandwidth to do something relatively simple, make a 15.4" version of the 17". Many of us would have bought that at with a 1 Ghz G4, had it been out a few months ago. I don't see the G5 Pbook soon, I guessed WWDC 2004, 12 months from now.

My Sawtooth G4 400 has 640Megs. I am skeptical of your claim that an iBook can run all of the apps I listed at the same time with decent performance.

There was no sacrasm intended. I will conceed that you probably can not encode Pixlet but on the Panther page, it states Pixlet will run on ANY Panther Mac,

from http://www.apple.com/macosx/panther/

...Pixlet lets high-end digital film frames play in real time with any Panther Mac, without investing in costly, proprietary playback hardware.

Currently on my iBook 900 with 640MB of ram I am running...

Graphic Converter, Photoshop 7, Dreamweaver MX, iChat, Safari, Mail and iTunes, with no trouble.

I think that you are assuming we won't get anything at the creative expo in June. I don't see apple announcing the big G5 and the mildly updated PB at the same time. I'll be willing to bet there will be a 15" PB in June, but no G5 that's for sure.

macboyx

Wyrm
Jun 26, 2003, 11:55 PM
In my opinion a 1 Ghz G4 is great for a laptop right now -
as I'm rarely CPU constrained. Other people sound like they can't squeeze enough.

For me, when buying a laptop - I look at (not in any order):

1) Portability (it's a laptop - you have to lug it around). Heavy is bad - strength is good (try lifting a laptop up by it's corner and see how much it flexes. Ever hear a laptop groan? Try a Sony).
I find powerbooks to be the best here. The ti paint thing sucked, and not sure about Al scratches - but I guess sometimes you just have to minimize your damage.

2) Life off a main. I hate worrying about watching a power meter drain before my eyes and wondering if I lose track I'll run out of power and loose everything, or have to make a mad dash to a power outlet, bowling over anyone or anything in my way. I'd rather sit in Starbucks and stare at the ceiling for a few minutes, how about you?
Powerbooks have outlasted most of the laptops in their class with regards to battery life - I think only the Centrino types compare? The times cited by the Apple are usually real times, for an average workload, or at least that is my experience. Wintel battery times tend to be theoretical maximums - "We guarantee you will get NO more than 2 hours, or your money back."

3) Screen and Video - fast / slow?, bright / dark?
NEC made a screen once that had no backlight; it means it lasted a lot longer but you needed a flashlight to see what you were doing in a dark room. How did that get to the market?
Powerbook screens are bright, and crisp - the way grandma used to make 'em. The recent video chips are really good, especially the ATI 9000. If they are going to use the ATI 9600, that alone is worth the wait. A crappy screen or video can seriously degrade your impression of a laptop.

4) Keyboard - let's face it, laptop keyboards suck - but life can be made better with a nicer keyboard. I think Powerbook keyboards are about as good as it gets.

5) Built in Wireless.
This used to only be available on the Powerbooks/iBook - but the Wintel world is catching on. I can't count the number of network dongles I've torn off on Wintel laptops - so the thought of having an antenna sticking out of the card slot is not appealing... <SNAP!>

6) User Experience
This is a tough one to nail down and CPU speed, memory speed and HDD speed all contribute to it, but probably the biggest contributor is the OS. OS-X is, quite frankly, a lot of fun, low in frustration, and works the way you would think it would. With Linux or Windows - your mileage may vary.

So build your own criteria list, do the comparison and see which one comes out on top?

In other news...
I'm not so sure duals (although pretty cool) would actually sell - I would rather pay more for longer battery life, or more memory, or an upgradeable video card before a dual would be on my list. Call me skeptical, but....

-Wyrm

jbomber
Jun 27, 2003, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Wyrm
In my opinion a 1 Ghz G4 is great for a laptop right now -
as I'm rarely CPU constrained. Other people sound like they can't squeeze enough.

For me, when buying a laptop - I look at (not in any order):

1) Portability
2) Life off a main
3) Screen and Video
4) Keyboard
5) Built in Wireless
6) User Experience

So build your own criteria list, do the comparison and see which one comes out on top?

In other news...
I'm not so sure duals (although pretty cool) would actually sell - I would rather pay more for longer battery life, or more memory, or an upgradeable video card before a dual would be on my list. Call me skeptical, but....

-Wyrm

In total agreement... Those 6 points will make or break the value of a laptop. I don't think anyone can reasonably expect Apple to have G5 powerbook ready anytime soon, and certainly not by MWNY. Right now I'd REALLY just like to see a speed bumped 15" with the Aluminum feature set. Seems reasonable enough to me....

Wyrm
Jun 27, 2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by jbomber
Right now I'd REALLY just like to see a speed bumped 15" with the Aluminum feature set. Seems reasonable enough to me....

Me too. Scary part is this should have been possible a long time ago... if you read the Page 2 rumor: "New PowerBook Model ID's?" The #3 isn't there... which might mean Apple never had any intention of bringing out a new 15"?

I guess if they update the 12"/17" and there still is no 15" we can conclude that the 15" is no more. The update for the 12"/17" is statistically overdue now - so soon we will know one way or another.

-Wyrm

jbomber
Jun 27, 2003, 01:10 AM
honestly, if they do away with the 15, i will be so ********** pissed. i sold my Titanium for a reason- so i could get a new Aluminum powerbook. i don't want a 12 and i sure as hell don't want a 17.

Vanilla
Jun 27, 2003, 01:20 AM
I actually thought we'd get a G5 sweep including both Powermacs and Powerbooks but it seems that cooling issues are greater than was assumed by others, which has meant the Pbooks must remain G4 for the time being.

So the only reason I can come up with for the excessive delay on the 15" is that they are waiting for speed bumped G4's which will enable them to update the 12", 17" AND introduce a new 15" in one go.

If so, I guess we would see a new range around the time that 12" and 17" are due for updates, which is pretty soon I believe.

Vanilla

Rezet
Jun 27, 2003, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by jxyama
MacBoyX,

i agree with most of your points, even if they are coming out a bit more "hostile" (not to me, but maybe to others) than you really intend them to be.

it does NOT bother me when people come here to post things about PCs. it does NOT bother me when people come here to post that PCs are better for such and such reasons... (provided it's moderately true.)

what does bother me is when they complain about Macs because they are not PCs.

"unless Apple does this and that (speed, CPU, hardware, software, etc.), which are already available in PCs, i'm not going to buy one."

FINE. go get a PC, it's not like we don't know these facts. most of us are pretty knowledgeable about computers, period. despite the shortcomings, we choose Macs.

in the case of this post, i agree to a degree that 15" should be updated. and many people are waiting. post and rant away about apple needing to upgrade because he/she is tired of waiting - FINE. "threatening" us that they are gonna go the way of PCs because of apple's shortcoming - FINE, go do it, DON'T BOTHER TELLING US, WE DON'T CARE.

"why should i get a pbook instead of sony, which is cheaper and faster?"

a question like this drive me insane for some reasons:

1) some people happen to believe price and speed aren't the only thing involved in making a decision about the computer purchase.

2) #1 does not make those people "stupid" or "idiot" or whatever

3) consequently, we don't have to "justify" why we think like #1.

keyword is "justify"

people who ask these questions USUALLY assumes we are idiots or blind, or come off as if they do. if they are genuinely interested in knowing why we think like above, don't make us "justify." i just get the vibe all the time that they think it's their duty to make us see the light and put us on the defensive. that's not the way to ask questions.

this is quite long already so i might as well go overboard. :D

as an example, instead of:

"PCs are cheaper and faster than macs, why should i get a mac?"

say

"despite their general priciness and lack of cutting edge hardware [note: this could still come off as flamebait], people here seem to like macs a lot compared to PCs. could you tell me about aspects of macs that make them so appealing to you?"



What a bunch of spin people! I'm not arguing that OSX is better but I think you dont undertand that some poeple need speed as well. Our company runs programs that depend on Processor speed and ammount of ram. I was looking for portability and decent powere as well. So don't cut me this crap that, mac's beauty is in something else. It always sounds like those who enjoy long walks on the beach and love to talk about it.
I do know that Pc's are made like crap, but fast crap, and u know, that counts sometimes. And outdated and over priced Pbook is not for me. I'll get G5 however.
I dont care for what logo is on it and i dont care i will get a bumper sticker "think different" with my purchase.

Computer is my work horse. Period.

I need. Speed, Reliability that is also easy to use.

Therefore I'm placing an order for Dual G5. and perhaps will get cheap pc laptop for mobility.

hacurio1
Jun 27, 2003, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by oomega1
i am thinking if they do a minor update on the 15inch its really stupid. I rather they put their money into making a nice product then to just do minor updates. Although there was an article already an yahoo article saying there will be no g5 for a long time to come on the NEW POWERBOOKS, and that motorola is here to stay. But only ibm is able to take it to the next level tells me, hmm geez not much improvements for the new powerbook, the only thing they will add is the basics ? air extreme, al case, and fw800 a maybe? maybe a new graphics card?. i dont know. And more $$$$ And so all that to come and delay was sars? Just coming to conclusion that the speed enchancements are probably there and capable, i wouldn't buy one till then. But then i'm already upset when steve mentioned the 12 inch and the 17 inch then the pause. As if he was gonna mention the new 15inch pb or some type of road map. He knew exactly what we were waiting for and made everyone hold their breathe. bleh.

LOL, I felt the same way. When I saw the image of the 12" on the keynote I was so :), but then.....he says.....It has only been 6 months. Oh well, better bring new 15", money is burning in my pocket!

jbomber
Jun 27, 2003, 02:23 AM
sounds like we've got a problem-

I want a new 15" powerbook...
You want a new 15" powerbook...
Everyone wants a new 15" powerbook...

BUT


where


are


they?

Looks like our options are :
a) they're coming at MacworldNY :D
b) they're coming between now and christmas :)
c) they're coming at MacworldSF 2004 :(
d) the line is dead. they're never coming. :mad:

Rasmuskl
Jun 27, 2003, 08:27 AM
I have a 1ghz TiBook, w 512 RAM, i got in december. I must say i love it. Would i trade it for a 3 Ghz Wintel Laptop. Never.

Why?
Because i have used Wintel. My last machine was a wintel, i hated it. Me and some of my friends used to get together for a night of LAN Gaming once every two weeks or so. It was a pain in the ass. Between the 5 wintel machines we couldn't get them to do such a simple task as to find each other. There would always be atleast one machine that we couldn't find, and when we finally sorted that out, another machine would jump of the network. We had several loose NIC cards, so we could change them out because some of the NIC cards wouldn't talk to each other. We would spend atleast 3-4 hours out of 12 hours setting up and reconfiguring the network, not to mention randomly installing Windows. Worst of all one time one of my friends had a damn virus we all got.
You might say we were stupid or computer literate, but two out of the five are now Software Engineers on Wintel Machines, one used to build and sell PCs as a second job (God Save the Souls) and I myself aren't completely stupid when it comes to machines. (Having built my own PCs, Maintain our office computers 5 macs, Thank God, and one PC, jury rigging stereo equipment etc.)
Anyways my point is, that is just one of the bad situations with wintel machines i have had. (and then of course the perpetual reinstalling of windows every 2-3 months because it would decide to delete or misplace parts of it self)
With Macs i have had some issues, wont say they are perfect, but usually it resolves itself much faster and easier, and worst come to worst I call Mac tech support and get it fixed. Anyone ever try to call Microsoft support. I always feel like i can hear someone in the background going MUAHHAHAHHAA! Sucker!.

Anyways back to my nice beautiful TiBook. I love it. It works. It's fast enough for my purposes (Typing, Internet, basic Photoshop, occasional Gaming Even 3Ds, HTML, MP3 playing and rippig, watching movies etc).
I can't say i have complaints it plays DVDs full screen with great resolution (I just need some external speakers for better sound) 3D gaming works fine at 1024x768 no choppng or anything. Photoshop works fine (It might be a problem with 300MB + files but I don't work that large).
Sure it pauses now and then for a little thinking time. But again do avoid signing my sould over to the Devil, i'll take it.
My networking works effortlessly. I bring it to work and hook it right up to our network and internet connection and samething at home. Airport works without me doing anything. I love it.

My Advice is to wait a month or so and waited for updated PB and then buy it. Unless all you are doing is heavy gaming it will work. (Damn it i want star wars galaxies for Mac)

If you want alot of speed that 90% of the population don't use and be able to play alot of games, by all means buy a Wintel Laptop. Its your soul.

Seriously by a machine for your needs and finances. Best Advice.

sedarby
Jun 27, 2003, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Rezet
Well, to me it seems like you are just a PC basher.
Looks are good, but i dont have to sit there all day and look at how cool icon looks and admire Pbook's stylish design. I have stuff to do.
I don't really know what upgrades you are talking about, I'm currently on PC and have been on pc for over 10 years now. And although I had problems with pretty much all of then :( I still don't consider this a current Pbook offer - a good value. I was looking to switch to apple mainly because i thought G5 will be faster and we use macs in school more often. I agree that Pc isnt that great of a machine, but cmon, do u really think its worth to pay over a thousand more for a slower computer just so that a computer looks cool and perhaps crashes little less?
I do admire OS X and that is a big part of why i want to switch, but apple isn't making switching easy. If I was driving BMW 7x and lived in a "crib", maybe I didn't care that much. But College is expensive and car payments bite too. Im not complaining about money problem, and hapend it to be upgraded, i wouldnt complain about money at all. But at this point, I think your argument is weak.

This is a site dedicated to rumors for the Apple Macintosh. We are ALL PC bashers!

jxyama
Jun 27, 2003, 10:06 AM
Rezet:

all i was saying in my post is this:

if you have a question, be courteous.

as is, we get quite a few posts which basically dare us to "defend" mac's performance/price/etc. against PCs.

if you need the speed and are convinced that macs don't offer you the speed you need, then go buy the PC you need. no need to ask us about it or "enlighten" us with your finding.

go get your g5 and a PC laptop. good for you, hope they serve you well.

MacBoyX
Jun 27, 2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Rezet
What a bunch of spin people! I'm not arguing that OSX is better but I think you dont undertand that some poeple need speed as well. Our company runs programs that depend on Processor speed and ammount of ram. I was looking for portability and decent powere as well. So don't cut me this crap that, mac's beauty is in something else. It always sounds like those who enjoy long walks on the beach and love to talk about it.
I do know that Pc's are made like crap, but fast crap, and u know, that counts sometimes. And outdated and over priced Pbook is not for me. I'll get G5 however.
I dont care for what logo is on it and i dont care i will get a bumper sticker "think different" with my purchase.

Computer is my work horse. Period.

I need. Speed, Reliability that is also easy to use.

Therefore I'm placing an order for Dual G5. and perhaps will get cheap pc laptop for mobility.

Good for you. Thanks for once again telling us that any Machine but a DUAL G5 is too slow to be allowed to exist.

And if you think you're getting reliability and ease of use out of WinXP...well let's leave that alone.

The G4 is not a slow machine, and I am sorry that you still seem to be allowing the Megahertz myth to cloud your judgement. I have both a 1.8GHz P4 ThinkPad and a G3 900 MHz iBook and I never even touch the ThinkPad, it's a door stop, my iBook feels faster and is way more stable...and is really easy to use. And it's only a G3...one chip behind what you called garbage in an earlier post!

I hope you are happy with your purchases...

MacBoyX

ZildjianKX
Jun 27, 2003, 12:11 PM
I was reading over most of this thread... and honestly I think that an ibook appears faster than a thinkpad since maybe Mac OS X is less bloated of an OS than Windows XP is. This isn't a bad thing... I wish MS would release more optimized OSes.

praetorian_x
Jun 27, 2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
I was reading over most of this thread... and honestly I think that an ibook appears faster than a thinkpad since maybe Mac OS X is less bloated of an OS than Windows XP is. This isn't a bad thing... I wish MS would release more optimized OSes.

WAAAAAAAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

WAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

OMFG! That is the funniest fanboy post evar!

Hoooooo. hooooo. Oh, my sides hurt. OSX! Optimized!

Oh, man, you really gotta warn me before you post stuff like that...

Cheers,
prat

DTphonehome
Jun 27, 2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Rezet
Beef, that is my feeling exactly.
Maybe I should consider G5 Pmac?
My choices right now:

PB 15" 1GHz
Sony P4 2.66Ghz
Pmac G5 1.8 Ghz. (not sure if i really should trade great speed for mobility)

Sorry if this was argued already, but I didn't have time to read all the posts in the thread.

Rezet, I switched from a PC in September. The reason I switched was because I was fed up with the inferior hardware of the PC world, coupled with truly lousy software. Mind you, I was an expert at all things PC...I've been using them since I was 6 years old (and I'm now 22). The fact of the matter is, Windows is a piece of software written for the millions upon millions of possible permutations of PC hardware. Thus, it includes drivers for every device under the sun, and seeks to create a computing environment that is compatible with the overwhelming majority of PCs on the market. That is, admittedly, a feat. BUT, this makes Windows a hugely bloated product, which crashes at the slightest provocation.

UNIX is immensely stable. That Apple customized their version of UNIX and designed ALL the hardware that Mac OS X runs on, makes the system as a whole function much more efficiently. And I'm not just talking about "crashing a little bit less." My 667Mhz PowerBook is as snappy and quick as the day I bought it. It loads all the programs as fast as my PC did, opens files quickly, and never, ever, ever crashes. With my PC, I used to have to restart at least daily. With my Mac, I restart perhaps once every three weeks. And I don't even have to, I just do it out of my old PC habits...shut down and everything gets cleaned up nicely : )

Another thing that bugged the heck out of me when I was on a PC...I had an HP laptop (and this is true for ANY brand of laptop, I have determined from conversations from friends)...this HP laptop would need upgrading from time to time, as all computers do. Whenever I would format and resintall to get my HP working as well as the day I got it, I would have to hunt down drivers for the little things like the buttons on the case of the laptop...the graphics card...the dvd drive...every little hardware component had its own driver or software that had to be found and installed to get it to work properly. Of course, they would all sit in the system tray or backround, slowing my PC to a crawl, even if I WAS on the latest and greatest P4.

Constrast this to a G4 PB. Every bit of software you need to make the hardware work properly is included with every version of Mac OS X. Upgrades are headache free. All those little components of the software are invisble to me, which is how I like it.

Finally, style IS important to me. I'm sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh when a guy in school pulled out a new "laptop" from Toshiba. I swear to you, the thing was over 2" thick! This is a laptop? A portable device which fits comfortably into your life? The thing was thrown together haphazardly by a bunch of computer geeks (no disrespect meant, guys) with no asthetic sensibilities. They just wanted to put a bunch of the latest tech together and throw a case up around it. Apple takes time to design its products, and it shows. The PB is quite simply a beautiful machine. When I took that thing out in lecture, heads would turn and jaws would drop. "It's so THIN" they would all say. If you have any appreciation for style, this is the only way to go. Thin laptops are either underpowered or just ugly. They all aspire to be Apple-looking machines, but they can never pull it off.

Anyway, I've said my piece. There you have my reasons for switching. I can assure you, I will never go back to PCs. I am not some sort of blindly obeying Apple follower. The satisfaction I get from a machine that performs well, with style and grace, makes me a very happy customer.

I hope that you do go for the switch. There is a very good chance you will become as involved as the rest of us with our Macs.

--DT

Over Achiever
Jun 27, 2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Wyrm
In my opinion a 1 Ghz G4 is great for a laptop right now -
as I'm rarely CPU constrained. Other people sound like they can't squeeze enough.

I actually own a 1 GHz G4 laptop (17") and having used PCs extensively (and still do) I feel there are good arguments on both sides of the story. And common misconceptions...

1) Portability.
This is one of the strengths of the powerbooks, and my laptop's Al skin is quite durable, and truly does not scratch easliy. However, take a look at the magnesium composites found on other laptops, esp., the ultra-lights such as the Dell X200 or the Sony Vaio, or Gateway 200...they can seem flimsy at first, but not plasticy at all. You might be surprised. :)

2) Life off a main . ...
Powerbooks have outlasted most of the laptops in their class with regards to battery life - I think only the Centrino types compare? [b]The times cited by the Apple are usually real times, for an average workload, or at least that is my experience. Wintel battery times tend to be theoretical maximums...
Don't be fooled by apple, their times are also theoritical maximums. With regular use, I can get a bit over three hours, rarely have i even approached the theoretical 4.5 hours apple cites. And yes, I have calibrated my battery and such, never that much. And you are correct, the centrino does give the PC laptops an improvement in battery life, a nice improvement. Still Apple's battery life is impressive. :)

3) Screen and Video - fast / slow?, bright / dark? ... A crappy screen or video can seriously degrade your impression of a laptop.
And PCs screens are just as nice, heck even Dell has released a 15.4" 1920x1200 screen. Many high-end laptops have impressive vid cards (not the ultra-lights I know), and the big thing is variety, altho the main screen sizes comparable to Apple's screens in brightness and contrast. Most LCDs are very similar now (non-gaming of course, the vid card being the determining factor...)

4) Keyboard
I didn't want to base my laptop buying experience on a keyboard, but wow this powerbook keyboard is awesome, rivaled only by IBM's thinkpads. Good plus for Apple :)

5) Built in Wireless.
My old, old HP laptop did not have wireless, and the antennae on my PC card is almost falling off from hanging out the PCMCIA slot. But you're right, a lot of PCs have the option of an internal mini-PCI slot for 802.11b. True 802.11g isn't widespread yet, but face it, most people won't use the additional bandwidth that g provides, and when they do, I suppose that PC laptops will included g for many more models.

6) User Experience
Powerbooks and Mac OS X are great for user experience, but there are times when OS X hangs...and I have had issues with waking from sleep and also the adapter acts iffy sometimes (due to the ground reference...unplugging and plugging the adaptor does the trick) ...dunno how widespread my problem is.

So build your own criteria list, do the comparison and see which one comes out on top?
For me, the powerbook came on top, but there are other factors to consider. The important one is BUDGET, altho' macs are slowly coming down in price (well powerbooks have recently), they are still pricey. I'm still wincing from the 3G that my 17" powerbook has set me back. Other things to consider: compatibility (not much to worry about, but something to consider), the "coolness" factor (lets face it, some still buy stuff because it's "cool"), durability (powerbooks altho' thin, are very durable, and the components should be able to last years), and finally obsoleteness (how long before this computer won't work for the stuff we need it for, G4 vs. G5 or G6 etc., 1 GHz vs. 2 GHz vs dual GHz) etc. Just more things to think about.

I'm not so sure duals (although pretty cool) would actually sell - I would rather pay more for longer battery life, or more memory, or an upgradeable video card before a dual would be on my list. Call me skeptical, but....
You and me both. I even had a sig that said "NO DUAL POWERBOOKS!!! (this year at least...) for a couple of months...but that was last year. ;) I've changed my mind...I think they'll sell decently, esp. if they give the option to disable the second processor unless necessary, perserving the battery life. And since powerbooks are so expensive, I suppose there will be those willing to spend the extra hundreds for the extra processor, and the extra heat it generates. And it would lessen the "percieved" gap that the G5 presents, and saving powerbook sales. Don't expect duals in a 12" model tho' ;) :D.

Anyway, that's my opinion on the subject (after months of not posting:D).

Oh sorry Wyrm for quoting you...I needed a starting point for my post. Don't take this post as critiqing yours or arguing...just showing my P.O.V.

-O.A.

Rezet
Jun 27, 2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by MacBoyX
Good for you. Thanks for once again telling us that any Machine but a DUAL G5 is too slow to be allowed to exist.

And if you think you're getting reliability and ease of use out of WinXP...well let's leave that alone.

The G4 is not a slow machine, and I am sorry that you still seem to be allowing the Megahertz myth to cloud your judgement. I have both a 1.8GHz P4 ThinkPad and a G3 900 MHz iBook and I never even touch the ThinkPad, it's a door stop, my iBook feels faster and is way more stable...and is really easy to use. And it's only a G3...one chip behind what you called garbage in an earlier post!

I hope you are happy with your purchases...

MacBoyX



Ohh yeah, sorry to burst your bubble fan boy. I guess this place is only for mac praising and pc bashing, I forgot. So unless i put down PC and say that 867Mhz G4 is the best damn machine in the world, I get looked upon. I'm sorry i'm not so "one sided".
And you right I buy whatever I want and what I need, so don't cut me this: "we don't need switchers that badly." I'm not switching to please you nor apple, I get G5 for pure speed as I need it. If you feel Pbooks are souch a great value, why don't you get it huh? Or you gonna tell that you G3 500 Mhz ibook is fast enough for you for now huh?
You get pissed at anyone who remotely suggests that Pbooks are slow and therefore are not worth buying, saying how insignificat that makes you look, yet you do it all the time, by putting me down because of my decisions.
If your Pbooks got upgraded and were G5 now, you would be mocking any pc user because of G5's speed, but since they didn't, why not just shift the attention and tell people that pbook's beauty is "inside". Good. Like I really need one sided opinions to make my decisions.
You can have a last word if you want. I'm not replying to this idiotic topic anymore, as noone can give a balanced answer here.

MacBoyX
Jun 27, 2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Rezet
Ohh yeah, sorry to burst your bubble fan boy. I guess this place is only for mac praising and pc bashing, I forgot. So unless i put down PC and say that 867Mhz G4 is the best damn machine in the world, I get looked upon. I'm sorry i'm not so "one sided".
And you right I buy whatever I want and what I need, so don't cut me this: "we don't need switchers that badly." I'm not switching to please you nor apple, I get G5 for pure speed as I need it. If you feel Pbooks are souch a great value, why don't you get it huh? Or you gonna tell that you G3 500 Mhz ibook is fast enough for you for now huh?
You get pissed at anyone who remotely suggests that Pbooks are slow and therefore are not worth buying, saying how insignificat that makes you look, yet you do it all the time, by putting me down because of my decisions.
If your Pbooks got upgraded and were G5 now, you would be mocking any pc user because of G5's speed, but since they didn't, why not just shift the attention and tell people that pbook's beauty is "inside". Good. Like I really need one sided opinions to make my decisions.
You can have a last word if you want. I'm not replying to this idiotic topic anymore, as noone can give a balanced answer here.

Well i am sure you wont reply but judging by the metle your made of you'll read to see if i reply.

I will NOT apologize about this being a place for Mac Fans and PC Bashers ummm IT IS A MAC RUMOR FORUM.
Secondly for your information I DID OWN A PowerBook. And I sold it...for a G3 900MHz iBook and it's PLENTY fast enuff. As I stated earlier faster and more stable than my ThinkPad. And thirdly, I would not be bashing PCs cause the G5 is faster. That remains to be seen and even if it is slower than a PC, i'd still buy one.

What you have missed about this whole topic is that there is more to buying and owning a Mac than speed, and if you don't get that than I am sorry.

Also as a last point, you didn't start off asking what you should do, you said...

Well, I make it very simple. I will get a powerbook 15" as soon apple gets on the with the program, I'll buy it. If they want my money, and thousands of people like me who are not gonna buy overpriced gagbage Ti books, they better introduce G5 books asap. PERIOD.


That's not asking for advice, that's bashing Apple in a Mac Forum and you got what you asked for. If some one wants to tell me I am a fan and a member of the Apple cult..then guilty as charged.

Enjoy what ever you buy... I hope it serves you well.

macboyX

Over Achiever
Jun 27, 2003, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Wyrm
In my opinion a 1 Ghz G4 is great for a laptop right now -
as I'm rarely CPU constrained. Other people sound like they can't squeeze enough.

I actually own a 1 GHz G4 laptop (17") and having used PCs extensively (and still do) I feel there are good arguments on both sides of the story. And common misconceptions...

1) Portability.
This is one of the strengths of the powerbooks, and my laptop's Al skin is quite durable, and truly does not scratch easliy. However, take a look at the magnesium composites found on other laptops, esp., the ultra-lights such as the Dell X200 or the Sony Vaio, or Gateway 200...they can seem flimsy at first, but not plasticy at all. You might be surprised. :)

2) Life off a main . ...
Powerbooks have outlasted most of the laptops in their class with regards to battery life - I think only the Centrino types compare? [b]The times cited by the Apple are usually real times, for an average workload, or at least that is my experience. Wintel battery times tend to be theoretical maximums...
Don't be fooled by apple, their times are also theoritical maximums. With regular use, I can get a bit over three hours, rarely have i even approached the theoretical 4.5 hours apple cites. And yes, I have calibrated my battery and such, never that much. And you are correct, the centrino does give the PC laptops an improvement in battery life, a nice improvement. Still Apple's battery life is impressive. :)

3) Screen and Video - fast / slow?, bright / dark? ... A crappy screen or video can seriously degrade your impression of a laptop.
And PCs screens are just as nice, heck even Dell has released a 15.4" 1920x1200 screen. Many high-end laptops have impressive vid cards (not the ultra-lights I know), and the big thing is variety, altho the main screen sizes comparable to Apple's screens in brightness and contrast. Most LCDs are very similar now (non-gaming of course, the vid card being the determining factor...)

4) Keyboard
I didn't want to base my laptop buying experience on a keyboard, but wow this powerbook keyboard is awesome, rivaled only by IBM's thinkpads. Good plus for Apple :)

5) Built in Wireless.
My old, old HP laptop did not have wireless, and the antennae on my PC card is almost falling off from hanging out the PCMCIA slot. But you're right, a lot of PCs have the option of an internal mini-PCI slot for 802.11b. True 802.11g isn't widespread yet, but face it, most people won't use the additional bandwidth that g provides, and when they do, I suppose that PC laptops will included g for many more models.

6) User Experience
Powerbooks and Mac OS X are great for user experience, but there are times when OS X hangs...and I have had issues with waking from sleep and also the adapter acts iffy sometimes (due to the ground reference...unplugging and plugging the adaptor does the trick) ...dunno how widespread my problem is.

So build your own criteria list, do the comparison and see which one comes out on top?
For me, the powerbook came on top, but there are other factors to consider. The important one is BUDGET, altho' macs are slowly coming down in price (well powerbooks have recently), they are still pricey. I'm still wincing from the 3G that my 17" powerbook has set me back. Other things to consider: compatibility (not much to worry about, but something to consider), the "coolness" factor (lets face it, some still buy stuff because it's "cool"), durability (powerbooks altho' thin, are very durable, and the components should be able to last years), and finally obsoleteness (how long before this computer won't work for the stuff we need it for, G4 vs. G5 or G6 etc., 1 GHz vs. 2 GHz vs dual GHz) etc. Just more things to think about.

I'm not so sure duals (although pretty cool) would actually sell - I would rather pay more for longer battery life, or more memory, or an upgradeable video card before a dual would be on my list. Call me skeptical, but....
You and me both. I even had a sig that said "NO DUAL POWERBOOKS!!! (this year at least...) for a couple of months...but that was last year. ;) I've changed my mind...I think they'll sell decently, esp. if they give the option to disable the second processor unless necessary, perserving the battery life. And since powerbooks are so expensive, I suppose there will be those willing to spend the extra hundreds for the extra processor, and the extra heat it generates. And it would lessen the "percieved" gap that the G5 presents, and saving powerbook sales. Don't expect duals in a 12" model tho' ;) :D.

Anyway, that's my opinion on the subject (after months of not posting:D).

Oh sorry Wyrm for quoting you...I needed a starting point for my post. Don't take this post as critiqing yours or arguing...just showing my P.O.V.

-O.A.

ZildjianKX
Jun 27, 2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by praetorian_x
WAAAAAAAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

WAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

OMFG! That is the funniest fanboy post evar!

Hoooooo. hooooo. Oh, my sides hurt. OSX! Optimized!

Oh, man, you really gotta warn me before you post stuff like that...

Cheers,
prat

Man, someone has his head really far up his ass. I like Mac and PCs... I'm not biased like you.

jeffosx
Jun 28, 2003, 08:28 AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread as I couldnt be bothered reading all of the posts...

If you are looking at a computer purchase there is only one thing to consider IMO.

Will it do what I need it to.

I have both macs and PCs and speed is an issue on the PC for games only and has been for years. I upgraded to an athlon 2400+ system and for all the day to day work type stuff I cant tell the difference over my athlon 750 system I had before. I also get to play games a whole lot less and so cant really put the new machine through its paces there.

I use an original Ti400 G4 mac at work and the only thing I need more speed for is iMovie rendering but I get by as this is not that frequent (1 a week or so and I export at lunchtime or before meetings etc). Photoshop, indesign, officeX, illustrator and everything else run so damn well that my abilty to justify ugrading is about nill as my boss knows this...

The G5 is targeted squarely at pros whos life would benefit from this speed and geeks like me who just plain want stuff for the sake of it...

I like (love) my mac because of OSX and now Keynote and iChatAV....

Think of your computer like your bed. Your going to be spending alot of time together so pamper yourself a bit...

HTH

ZildjianKX
Jun 28, 2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by jeffosx
Think of your computer like your bed. Your going to be spending alot of time together so pamper yourself a bit...

Hey, I like that a lot... :) By that same token... get a good monitor if you have a desktop :)