Mac OS X 10.3 Panther. Why Is it still $129?

[benixau]

I emailed steve jobs at apple about this issue. I did indeed get a response. Judge for yourself. his response is at the end.


On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 08:13 AM, Benjamin ***** wrote:

Mr Jobs,
I like most everyone who has ever heard of the Mac platform does not yet have Mac OS 10.3. I only ask - why is Apple charging for all of it's point updates? I and several people whom I chat with (via iChat (honestly!)) and some people at MacRumors (http://www.macrumors.com) which I am sure your aware of are wondering the same. I also understand business quite well (I work in the industry).

But I see expensive base model PowerMacs and expensive add-ons (iSight) and yet you still charge full price for developers like me (i am registered under this address) and other faithful users of Mac OS 10.2.

We understood 10.1 -> 10.2. It was effectively a brand new release. Does Apple see that we (customers since my brand new Apple IIgs) loyal mac users are not worth, say, a $35 or $40 discount, for having bought the previous version of Mac OS, either as a box or via a new Macintosh?

I find it hard to believe that a company that can afford to buy a wafer of chips for a demonstration (can not then be used for chips so are wasted) and a top of the line junk box, sorry, Dell computer also just for a demonstration can not afford that little amount. I guarantee it would make a lot of Mac users a lot happier to upgrade and will most likely do it sooner.

I understand that Apple is trying to sell more boxes (macs) like this but I put this to you Mr Jobs:
I will buy a new G5 Mac (when available) as soon as I can afford one.
I will get Panther with it.
I will always buy macs, I bought an MDD (Aug 2002) didn't I ....
As a developer of freeware for the mac, I need the latest OS.
I decided to get a new mac only a year ago (up from a B&W G3)

Am I not the sort of person who would be ideal for an upgrade price (not a free one (not that it wouldn't be nice :D)) It may be a bigger incentive for people to switch to the mac platform as well.

Thankyou for reading this email. I hope to hear from you as soon as is possible.


Your loyal Mac user and cocoa developer,

Benjamin *****


His response:

Benjamin,

Panther is loaded with new features, and is not a "point" release. Its a full release and worth every penny of the $129 we will charge for it, just like Jaguar was worth the same.

Best,
Steve


He seemed to me like he was slightly insulted by my email .... what do you think

[RandomDeadHead]

I highly doubt that was actualy steve. but more to the point. I also think that $129 is a bit steep for panther, and I understand your logic. If I were a developer, I would be a little upset that I did not recieve a discount. I too have been using Apples before their even was a Mac.

But on the otherhand I understand Apple's logic. They have probably spend a great amount of time and money refining the little things about OSX. Things too small to talk about. Jaguar had a few big inprovements to justify the price, but Panther on the outside is kind of shall we say, lack luster. Under the hood I am willing to bet that their are some great improvements, the little things that Apple is known for, and us zealots sometimes take for granted. For me, Expose' is worth about $50 bucks, and will be the reason that I upgrade. The new fax feature to me is worth about $20 bucks. I use the mail app, and any improvements will be greatly appreciated.
Font book is the feature that pushes it over the edge for me.

Apple must make money anyway they can, they after all are a buesness. Your $129 will not be wasted, it will help pay for all the inovation that Apple brings to the computer industry.

[MacBandit]

Don't forget the demonstration of 10.3 was a very early prerelease if the fact stand that they aren't going to release it until December. In that case there may be a lot of other additions that Apple didn't demonstrate yet because they weren't ready for the spotlight. I expect to see more good things come of panther on top of a lot of good things under the hood giving us better performance and better stability.

[QCassidy352]

Yes, the reply did seem a bit put off. If it was really Jobs, than it's safe to say that he just didn't have time to write more. But I doubt that.

I agree that $130 is too much for Panther. It looks nice, but frankly, I'm not blown away. I doubt I will buy it unless I end up getting a new mac that comes with it. I like to have the latest system, but Panther just doesn't look like $130 worth of improvements to me. Nor did I buy Jaguar separately; my copy came with my new ibook.

Whoever wrote that e mail is wrong -- Panther is not a "full release." It has substantially more improvements than, say, 10.2.1 ==> 10.2.2, but it's hardly revolutionary or radically different from Jaguar.

I tend to think like you, benixau. Apple makes most of its money off of hardware, and a moderately discounted version of panther would be a nice gesture towards loyal users who have purchased a mac recently. Do I think we are owed it? Definitely not. But I think that such a discount would both go a long way towards making people feel like Apple isn't out to screw them at every turn, and would also induce many non-pro users to buy the upgrade.

[maraczc]

It was labelled Steve, not Steve Jobs. It doesn't really matter anyway. From what I see Panther is just a final release of OS X with the problems sorted out and all the applications finished.

[pEZ]

I wouldn't worry about it. I, among others, don't think that Panther is as good as gold master right now. There are a ton of cool features right now - iChat AV (notice it will cost money for jag owners, but free for panther owners), Exposé, Font book, file vault, etc. Though those features will be worth what I will get Panther for (being a college student who gets discounts), I bet there will be more features to drool over in the near future.

[iJon]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Don't forget the demonstration of 10.3 was a very early prerelease if the fact stand that they aren't going to release it until December. In that case there may be a lot of other additions that Apple didn't demonstrate yet because they weren't ready for the spotlight. I expect to see more good things come of panther on top of a lot of good things under the hood giving us better performance and better stability.
are you sure december, sounds a long way away. they said before end of the year. i suspect september, but maybe not.

iJon

[benixau]

What other features do you people realistically expect. Why wouldn't apple show all it could at WWDC. Save it for MWNY.

BTW - the G5 Store specs (online) state that the G5 is using a special version of MacOS built for it.

[gbojim]

Originally posted by benixau
What other features do you people realistically expect. Why wouldn't apple show all it could at WWDC. Save it for MWNY.

BTW - the G5 Store specs (online) state that the G5 is using a special version of MacOS built for it.

Let me try to explain a couple of things.

First of all - Apple is spilling everything developers need to know about Panther at WWDC. There are about 300 hours worth of sessions throughout the week - pretty hard to fit into one keynote. So don't assume they are holding anything back.

Second - whoever answered your email probably was insulted. I get comments like yours at my company as well. The reason it's insulting is folks like yourself, having no clue what went into development, or our thought process to arrive at the release designation, start declaring we haven't made enough changes to warrant the release we've chosen.

I'm not trying to flame you, but it's obvious that you have not been at WWDC for the last 2 days. The "under the hood changes" from 10.2 to 10.3 are huge compared to the changes from 10.1 to 10.2. Many of the things Apple has done with Panther may look like polishing on the outside, but on the inside there are a lot of complete technology changes that were not available or possible a year ago.

Third - there are going to be a lot more user oriented features revealed outside of what was seen at the keynote. Some of those have been revealed at WWDC, I expect more will be revealed before the end of the week, and others will be kept secret for now. The point is, no one at this time can declare Panther to be too expensive because no one knows exactly what it is yet.

Finally - when Panther is fully revealed and the full feature set is known, everyone will have to make a decision. Are the features included worth $130 to ME? For some it will be, for others not. If you don't find the features worth the cost, don't spend your money.

Sorry about the rant but as the person responsible for software development at my company, this thread hit one of my hot buttons. I completely understand the response in the email.

[mnkeybsness]

remember when everyone was originally saying that jaguar was not worth the $129...then when it was actually released, the apple stores couldn't keep it on the shelves? i got a feeling the same thing will be happening here...

...once you use it for a while, you'll never know how you used a mac without it.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by iJon
are you sure december, sounds a long way away. they said before end of the year. i suspect september, but maybe not.

iJon

I'm just repeating what I heard on TechTV (notoriously wrong) and what I read on a number of Mac news sites (note: not rumor sites). I hope it comes out sooner but maybe someone at Apple spilled the beans on the actual e.t.a. month.

I heard that he actually reads all his own email. Most likely the email returned though was sent by his secertary who probably took it near verbatim from steve over iChat AV. In any case I actually believe Steve. I think that 10.3 is as much or more of a full version release then say OS8. It is a complete rework of the complete system and also the entire finder for that matter. Yes, the big stuff did happen under the surface but remember the 10.2 advertising that said 100 some features. Well it had that many at least well 10.3 has the same advertising and from what I understand that number will grow before it's released.

[iJon]

Originally posted by MacBandit
I'm just repeating what I heard on TechTV (notoriously wrong) and what I read on a number of Mac news sites (note: not rumor sites). I hope it comes out sooner but maybe someone at Apple spilled the beans on the actual e.t.a. month.

I heard that he actually reads all his own email. Most likely the email returned though was sent by his secertary who probably took it near verbatim from steve over iChat AV. In any case I actually believe Steve. I think that 10.3 is as much or more of a full version release then say OS8. It is a complete rework of the complete system and also the entire finder for that matter. Yes, the big stuff did happen under the surface but remember the 10.2 advertising that said 100 some features. Well it had that many at least well 10.3 has the same advertising and from what I understand that number will grow before it's released.
ah ok, i didnt know if you were going under "end of the year" assumption or not. well i heard this dev release is very stable, i wonder what they extra time will do.

iJon

[davrouk]

Surely there should be a cheaper "upgrade" option - I have only just got 10.2 and have to shell out again now for 10.3 ? Where was the advantage of getting 10.2 - people in this situation may as well have stayed with 9

[jxyama]

reduced upgrade price won't directly lead to more switchers. it will only entice future switchers who are actually worried about upgrading to the next os to switch.

so what you wrote in the original email at the end is a little off the point. and a little "careless" comment like that will give the impression to the reader at apple (jobs or not) that it's another email "whining" about the price.

i do not want to get into comparisons to wintels, but generally speaking, taking into account how well mac os works on even old computers (meaning updated os does not require a new hardware... though with xp, this is probably changing, dunno about longhorn), consider the competition:

xp home: full $200, upgrade $100
xp pro: full $300, upgrade $200

(price taken from compusa online. yes, not the best software vendor...)

so while it would be wonderful to receive the upgrade to panther for less, i don't think apple is completely out of line and i can understand their "response." i am sure apple receives tons of emails asking about their prices.

[benixau]

@ gbojim:
Thankyou. i did not know half of the stuff you hinted to and mentioned. As my email said i am a cocoa developer.

@ The rest of you:
Thankyou. it has helped me just that bit more.

Aside:
I never said i was not going to buy panther. I want it - NOW - like 20% of mac users out there. I was just asking for a little conideration this time round. Alas - not to happen - i will still get it because i want and need some of its features - namely FileVault.

[robbieduncan]

I too do not understand why Panther will still be $129. 10.0 was $129. 10.1 was $129 (although you could get an upgrade CD for more or less free). 10.2 was $129. So where is inflation. 10.3 should be $139 or so to account for this! So we are getting a real good deal here. If this keeps up Mac OS will end up costing less that a beer (in real terms).

[janey]

Originally posted by RandomDeadHead
I highly doubt that was actualy steve. but more to the point.
i think that was steve, that's the way he always ends his e-mails.
besides it sounds just like steve and it's like exactly what he would say...:rolleyes:

[iJon]

personally i feel that after playing with ichat av, its worth every penny. i love this new ichat.

iJon

[Schiffi]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about educational discounts! Mwuhahaha! Praise the 30,000 odd some dollars I'm borrowing for college!

I forgot about the Finder updates. And the Fax. Those will be worth a lot for me. I don't know about Exposé... but I might like it after getting Panther. I like the simplness of Mail.app. I'm just glad they didn't name it iMail. But in my eyes Panther will definetly be worth an educational discount price. ;)

[evildead]

If pather is a true 64-bit OS..... then it is a significant upgrade and worth the cash....

Solaris for x86 is free from Sun.. but you have to pay for Solaris for UlitraSpark. There probably will be an upgrade price... wasnt there one for 10.2? from 10.1?

I got my full copy of 10.2 for $60 after EDU discount

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by übergeek
i think that was steve, that's the way he always ends his e-mails.
besides it sounds just like steve and it's like exactly what he would say...:rolleyes:

Like steve-o's secretary couldn't type "best, steve"

That So doesn't mean its legitimately steve. and what does it matter anyway?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[QuiteSure]

For me, the iDisk syncing alone is worth the $129 price and the full price renewal of .mac

I am constantly moving back and forth between my office, home and iBook. I use a USB pendrive to bring documents between computers and frequently run into problems trying to remember which of the 2 or 3 versions are most current (between my office server, my office desktop, my home desktop and my iBook).

With Panther's new iDisk, all of this is gone. Any files which I need remotely I will simply copy to my iDisk and use wherever I am.

In fact, I'm considering increasing my hard drive space for iDisk and putting all of my server shared data there. By so doing I will accomplish many things: remote backup and remote syncing.

Worth $129 for that? Absolutely!

[gandalf55]

im using Panther - and I do think its worth the $129... very much so!

[jayscheuerle]

You got a basic form reply, as will everyone that complains about the price.

Besides, Steve said that the over 100 new features were either "amazing", "incredible", "awesome", "exciting", etc...

So you know it's true!

:p

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by QuiteSure
For me, the iDisk syncing alone is worth the $129 price and the full price renewal of .mac

I am constantly moving back and forth between my office, home and iBook. I use a USB pendrive to bring documents between computers and frequently run into problems trying to remember which of the 2 or 3 versions are most current (between my office server, my office desktop, my home desktop and my iBook).

With Panther's new iDisk, all of this is gone. Any files which I need remotely I will simply copy to my iDisk and use wherever I am.

In fact, I'm considering increasing my hard drive space for iDisk and putting all of my server shared data there. By so doing I will accomplish many things: remote backup and remote syncing.

Worth $129 for that? Absolutely!

iDisk does not come with Panther. iDisk is $99/year and is an addition to the $129 you pay for a full version upgrade without and edu discount.

[QuiteSure]

Originally posted by MacBandit
iDisk does not come with Panther. iDisk is $99/year and is an addition to the $129 you pay for a full version upgrade without and edu discount.

Still worth it if the sync feature works as well as Steve promised.

[Lanbrown]

Originally posted by evildead
If pather is a true 64-bit OS..... then it is a significant upgrade and worth the cash....

Solaris for x86 is free from Sun.. but you have to pay for Solaris for UlitraSpark. There probably will be an upgrade price... wasnt there one for 10.2? from 10.1?

I got my full copy of 10.2 for $60 after EDU discount

You might want to check your facts. Solaris x86 can be bought, not downloaded for free. Solaris SPARC can be downloaded for free and used at home in a non-production environment. If a company has a maintenance contract, they get free updates and can download it. They do want at least one media kit purchased though. If the company does not have a maintenance contract, Sun wants a license being bought for the machine. This all can be found on their site.

Panther is not a 64-bit OS.
http://theregister.com/content/39/31600.html

[ump3]

Originally posted by RandomDeadHead
Expose' is worth about $50 bucks, and will be the reason that I upgrade. The new fax feature to me is worth about $20 bucks.

If you break it down, I suppose you can make it sound good vfm. I think thats harder to do with Panther though, there weren't a great deal of 'KillerApps' in the Panther presentation (in my opinion). It is starting to feel like a tax, $99 for .mac $129 for Jaguar, $129 for Panther, whats next year finder-pay-per-click! :D Obviously thats taking it too far, but I do feel I should be setting up a standing order to Apple at my Bank. Just take $250 a year, that should cover my .mac and any 'upgrades'.

Would it be Steve jobs who makes the decisions about how much Apple stuff goes out for, or is it an accountant type? All those stores can't be cheap at all, thats probably why we're gettin hit for money annually.

ho hum, when's Panther released then?

p.s whats Steve Job's email address then? steve@apple.com or did he shell out the $99 for a .mac? :D

[peterjhill]

Well, considering that we have a Mac OS that works just fine, 10.2.6, I see no problems in Apple charging $129 for their new software.

10.3 is a big change from 10.2. There are alot of internal changes that you will not notice but make a huge difference. For one thing, the whole kernel is being upgraded to the latest version. Expose is awesome, fast user switching...

If the price is too high for one to justify the purchase, just like I said for 10.2... Don't buy it. Jaguar will still work. It is not like users will lose any current functionality when panther comes out. For those that want to pay for the new features, I see nothing wrong with paying Apple for the work they have done.

Compare the work apple has done on their os to Microsoft. Apple is actually able to put out decent upgrades to their software. WinXP is barely better than 2K. I wouldn't pay to upgrade from one to the other.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by ump3
p.s whats Steve Job's email address then? steve@apple.com or did he shell out the $99 for a .mac? :D

As far as I know you can email him a Mac or Apple. So SJobs@mac.com or SJobs@Apple.com .

[Santiago]

$129 is an upgrade price. Every last copy of the Mac OS sold is an upgrade, since it'll only work on a machine that came with some licensed version of the Mac OS in the first place. With respect to developers needing it, that's why you get a free copy of every OS update when you're in any of the paid developer programs. About the "point release", look at the time between paid updates and the features included; Apple is just bumping the version number by .1 each time to be able to keep calling it Mac Oh Ess Ten until 2010 or so. I personally prefer this numbering scheme over the inflationary numbering schemes of the past...

[Sleix]

Originally posted by evildead
If pather is a true 64-bit OS..... then it is a significant upgrade and worth the cash....
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31600.html

At least, what I've found of it...states that "Panther Will not be a 64-bit OS." :mad:

EDIT: Dammit, somebody beat me to it.

[hvfsl]

I think Panther is worth it. It has so many new features that I want and need.

- proper 5.1 sound support
- hardware de-interlacing in the DVD player
- improved graphics performance (according to www.xlr8yourmac.com)


I think these new features are worth the upgrade allone. I have 3 Macs at home, 2 with 10.2 and one with 10.1. When I get Panther will will be able to (legally) use my jag disk to upgrade the 10.1 machine. All the people that don't want to pay $130 for 10.3 had better not get an illegal copy since I will be really pissed off. This is because SJ said he would include activation similar to Windows XP in all new version of Mac OS, if people continue to pirate Mac OS.

[matthew24]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I very much agree with gbojim. Just compare OSX prices with XP pro! I experience OSX pricing as very fair. I also do appreciate Apple continually listening to their customers and many times applying their input very much, with MS everything is being pushed down your throat. Many Apple users really very much under estimate Apple's efforts on the OSX front. The only ridiculous thing with Apple are their memory prices driving custumors to 3rd party dealers. I will gladly pay another $129 also knowing Apple will reinvest it to keep their demanding custumors sattisfied.

:) :) :) :)

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by matthew24
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I very much agree with gbojim. Just compare OSX prices with XP pro! I experience OSX pricing as very fair. I also do appreciate Apple continually listening to their customers and many times applying their input very much, with MS everything is being pushed down your throat. Many Apple users really very much under estimate Apple's efforts on the OSX front. The only ridiculous thing with Apple are their memory prices driving custumors to 3rd party dealers. I will gladly pay another $129 also knowing Apple will reinvest it to keep their demanding custumors sattisfied.

:) :) :) :)

I agree that OSX's price is quite fair when you look at the industry as a whole. Also I keep hearing people complain about Apples memory prices but they seem right in line with Dell, Compaq, IBM, or Sony if you do a custom setup. Yes 3rd party memory is cheaper so is 3rd party video cards, hard drives, removable media drives, etc..

[Lanbrown]

Originally posted by MacBandit
I agree that OSX's price is quite fair when you look at the industry as a whole. Also I keep hearing people complain about Apples memory prices but they seem right in line with Dell, Compaq, IBM, or Sony if you do a custom setup. Yes 3rd party memory is cheaper so is 3rd party video cards, hard drives, removable media drives, etc..

Actually I find their memory prices more then fair. Add in the fact that they will install it for you (if you are ordering a system) and be covered under the warranty, makes it all so much better. The peecee side really jacks the prices up for everyone but the largest companies. I believe they recently have started to lower their prices though. Not too long ago, there were times where you could buy the upgrade for half the cost they were charging.

Kingston 512MB memory modules for the iMac:
$129
$179 SODIMM
Total is $308 for 1GB. Apple charges $400 to have 1GB installed when you order. You also don't have a module left over if you did it yourself.