Singing The Gitmo Blues

[obeygiant]

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2820/1960687500sq3.jpg

Detainee: Cheap deodorant, lack of DVD players equals torture

MAY 15--An accused al-Qaeda member being held at the Guantanamo Bay detention facility claims he is being mentally tortured by guards who provide him with "cheap branded unscented deodorant," deprive him of DVD players and other entertainment, and stock a recreation area with deflated balls that "hardly bounce." The complaints from Majid Khan are contained in a transcript of an April 15 Combatant Status Review Tribunal held at Gitmo. An excerpt from the transcript, which was released today by the Department of Defense, can be found below. Khan is one of 15 suspected enemy combatants who were transported last year to Guanatanamo from overseas CIA jails for military tribunals. According to U.S. officials, Khan pledged to "martyr himself" against Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf by "detonating a vest of explosives inside a building," and referred to al-Qaeda leader Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as his "uncle." During the April tribunal, Khan's representative read a lengthy statement from the accused terrorist, which included a section with "some facts about how they are mentally torturing us." Along with toiletry, exercise, and entertainment beefs, Khan was upset about the weekly "newsletter" he receives: "Most of the stuff is crap; only few pages are worth reading." During the hearing, Khan denied al-Qaeda ties, saying, "I am not an Enemy Combatant. I am not an extremist."the smoking gun (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0515072gitmo1.html?link=rssfeed)

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/5585/0515072gitmo1hy9.gif

[OldCorpse]

So, Himmler, is the Red Cross still complaining that Auschwitz shouldn't even exist?

Yes, mein Führer, and the Jews even have the audacity to complain about the excellent shower facilities we have so kindly provided for them!

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1130-01.htm

"Red Cross: Guantanamo Tactics 'Tantamount to Torture'

WASHINGTON - The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has accused the U.S. military of using tactics "tantamount to torture" on prisoners at the U.S. Navy base in Guantanamo Bay, The New York Times reported on Tuesday.

A detainee is escorted by guards at Guantanamo Bay. In a confidential report the International Committee of the Red Cross said it found prisoner abuse that amounted to 'a form of torture' at the US military facility, The New York Times reported (AFP/File/Roberto Schmidt)
An ICRC inspection team that spent most of June at Guantanamo Bay reported the use of psychological and sometimes physical coercion on the prisoners, the newspaper said.

It said it had recently obtained a memorandum that quoted the report in detail and listed its major findings.

In Geneva, the ICRC said it would neither confirm nor deny the New York Times report -- in which allegations of treatment tantamount to torture go further than what the neutral intermediary has publicly stated before about inmates held at Guantanamo.

But, in a statement, the Geneva-based ICRC said it remained concerned that "significant problems regarding conditions and treatment at Guantanamo Bay have not yet been adequately addressed," and it was pursuing talks with U.S. authorities.

More than 500 people are being held at the U.S. base in Cuba, detained during the 2001 U.S. war to oust al Qaeda and the ruling Taliban from Afghanistan and in other operations in the U.S. war against terror. The ICRC began visits in early 2002.

The Times said the U.S. government and military officials received the ICRC report in July and rejected its findings.

Asked by the Times about the report, a Pentagon spokesman said in a statement: "The United States operates a safe, humane and professional detention operation at Guantanamo that is providing valuable information in the war on terrorism."

The Times said the Red Cross investigators had found a system devised to break the will of prisoners through "humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes, use of forced positions."

"The construction of such a system, whose stated purpose is the production of intelligence, cannot be considered other than an intentional system of cruel, unusual and degrading treatment and a form of torture," the Times quoted the report as saying.

Beatrice Megevand-Roggo, the committee's delegate-general for Europe and the Americas, told the newspaper the ICRC could not comment on the report submitted to the U.S. government.

The ICRC has agreed to keep its findings confidential.

Human rights groups and lawyers have criticized the United States for holding prisoners at the base indefinitely and most without charges or legal representation.

The U.S. government has taken the position that the detainees are "enemy combatants" and not entitled to the protections normally given to prisoners of war.

It has begun a process of holding individual trials, called tribunals, for each prisoner to determine their status.

Additional reporting by Stephanie Nebehay in Geneva"

Red Cross - those commie terrorist-loving dhimmi bastards!

[Ugg]

Are you guaranteeing that this is real? I thought nothing was ever to be leaked about what went on during the trials. Sounds highly dubious at best and most likely simply propaganda to keep the hearts of Americans hardened against "the infidel".

Anyone who believes a government leak from the Guantanamo trials, I have a mansion in Baghdad I'll sell you for a good price.....

[OldCorpse]

Are you guaranteeing that this is real? I thought nothing was ever to be leaked about what went on during the trials. Sounds highly dubious at best and most likely simply propaganda to keep the hearts of Americans hardened against "the infidel".

Anyone who believes a government leak from the Guantanamo trials, I have a mansion in Baghdad I'll sell you for a good price.....

Sure it can be real. Don't you understand how propaganda works? You can always find one or two guys in any large group who are plain crazy, and then all you need is do some fancy editing, and try to smear the rest of the prisoners by pretending that this is representative. And guess what, it works!

You know, how I made the joke in the post above about Nazi concentration camps and the Red Cross? It was based on truth. The Nazis actually managed to fool the Red Cross into believing the concentration camps were A-OK! If the Nazis can be good enough with propaganda to fool the Red Cross about concentration camps, then surely this administration - if not quite competent enough to fool the Red Cross, can at least fool some American people (the right wing nuts, of course, not normal people). Here's the Red Cross fooled by Nazis about concentration camps - link well worth reading:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/CzechRepublic/Theresienstadt/TheresienstadtGhetto/History/RedCrossVisit.html

Among the Nazi concentration camps, Buchenwald is famous for its human lamp shades; Auschwitz is noted for its gas chambers and Bergen-Belsen will be forever remembered as the place where British bulldozers shoved the emaciated corpses of the deliberately starved inmates into mass graves. Theresienstadt's claim to fame is the beautification program (Verschönerung) in which the Nazis cleaned up the ghetto in preparation for a visit on June 23, 1944 by two Swiss delegates of the International Red Cross and two representatives of the government of Denmark.

[solvs]

Isn't it obvious? One guy might be a jerk. So there's no scandal here. We're obviously not torturing anyone, nor holding them against their wills without trials for years even though some are innocent because someone found one douchebag who may want a DVD player and some scented deodorant if he exists.

Well, I know I'm placated. :rolleyes:

[OldCorpse]

Below is a bit more balanced article about the same guy. Funny, how the wingnuts jumped on this story to try to score political points, and the more one actually investigates the story, the worse it looks for the wingnut case. Just like everything connected with this massive war crime and gangster administration. It's like trying to find something good about the Nazis, and then, suprise, surprise, all you find is evil. Pathetic.

What's interesting here is not his treatment (he complains about ridiculous things, but also about more serious stuff, that caused him to attempt suicide twice, and an extensive hunger strike).

What is truly amazing, pathetic and plain disgusting, is just how extraordinarly weak the case against him appears. Key witnesses took back their testimony claiming CIA pressure. The guy offers to take polygraphs. There appears pathetically little in the way of hard evidence.

I don't know one way or another about the guilt of this guy. I certainly find the entire phenomemon of Gitmo and the massive abuses combined with the pathetically weak cases - to be something of a low point for our nation. How can we ever hold the moral high ground with this disgrace dogging our every step all over the world?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/15/AR2007051500935.html?nav=rss_print/asection

"A suspected terrorist who once lived in Maryland told a military tribunal that he was "mentally tortured" at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and was driven to twice attempt suicide by chewing through his own arteries, according to a transcript of a hearing released yesterday by the Pentagon.

Majid Khan, 27, one of 14 "high-value" suspects held for years by the CIA at secret foreign prisons before their transfer to Guantanamo Bay, also said he lost 30 pounds in 27 days during a hunger strike, according to the transcript. In a statement redacted in places by government censors, he complained of mistreatment that ranged from having his beard forcibly shaved and spending weeks without sunlight to the poor quality of the camp's weekly newsletter, it says."

[obeygiant]

Sure it can be real. Don't you understand how propaganda works? You can always find one or two guys in any large group who are plain crazy, and then all you need is do some fancy editing, and try to smear the rest of the prisoners by pretending that this is representative. And guess what, it works!

Here is another account from 2005.

More Gitmo torture practices revealed - Report
13/06/2005
The future of the "detention" facility at Guantanomo is once again the issue of debate.

A suspect held in Guantanamo Bay was stripped, forced to bark like a dog, and subjected to music, it emerged as debate intensified in the U.S. capital over the future of the detention camp in Cuba.

The latest disclosures come in a prison log of the treatment of Mohammad al-Kahtani, a Saudi citizen whom many U.S. investigators allege to be the 20th member of the September 11th attacks. The document, extracts of which appear in Time magazine, covers a 50 day spell in 2002-03 - a period when additional interrogation techniques were approved by Donald Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary.

They included a "sissy slap" with an inflated latex glove, ordering Kahtani to "bark to elevate his social status up to that of a dog," and rejecting a request that he be allowed to pray. On other occasions, water was poured on his head and music by Christina Aguilera was played to keep him awake in midnight sessions.

Other torture tactics Kahtani was subjected to include being questioned in a room decorated with pictures of 11 September victims.

Furthermore, he was made to urinate in his underpants, and at other times to wear pictures of scantily clad women around his neck.

At one point, according to the log, he asked to commit suicide.

A Pentagon official was quoted by the magazine as saying that the log was "the kind of document that was never meant to leave Gitmo."

It is also a document that will only intensify foreign criticism of the prison at the U.S. base, recently described by Amnesty International as a "Gulag of our times".

The former U.S. president Jimmy Carter has added his voice to those calling for its closure, while some senior Democratic lawmakers have called it a "recruiting tool" for "international terrorism".

So sensitive has the issue become that a report in Newsweek magazine last month claiming that a Quran had been flushed down a lavatory at the base led to anti-American riots in Pakistan and Afghanistan in which dozens of people were killed.

The news magazine later retracted the report, but a Pentagon investigation acknowledged other instances in which the Quran was desecrated by guards and interrogators at the camp.

The White House appears split on the issue of the closure of Guantanamo.

Duncan Hunter, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, said that some members of the Bush administration favoured closing the camp. "They're divided," Hunter said. "Some members of the White House have come to the conclusion that the legend is different than the fact."
aljazeera.com (http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9010)

[Swarmlord]

Here is another account from 2005.


aljazeera.com (http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9010)

Real Jack Bauer stuff there. Lol! Oh no! Not the sissy slap!

[leekohler]

Below is a bit more balanced article about the same guy. Funny, how the wingnuts jumped on this story to try to score political points, and the more one actually investigates the story, the worse it looks for the wingnut case. Just like everything connected with this massive war crime and gangster administration. It's like trying to find something good about the Nazis, and then, suprise, surprise, all you find is evil. Pathetic.

What's interesting here is not his treatment (he complains about ridiculous things, but also about more serious stuff, that caused him to attempt suicide twice, and an extensive hunger strike).

What is truly amazing, pathetic and plain disgusting, is just how extraordinarly weak the case against him appears. Key witnesses took back their testimony claiming CIA pressure. The guy offers to take polygraphs. There appears pathetically little in the way of hard evidence.

I don't know one way or another about the guilt of this guy. I certainly find the entire phenomemon of Gitmo and the massive abuses combined with the pathetically weak cases - to be something of a low point for our nation. How can we ever hold the moral high ground with this disgrace dogging our every step all over the world?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/15/AR2007051500935.html?nav=rss_print/asection

"A suspected terrorist who once lived in Maryland told a military tribunal that he was "mentally tortured" at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and was driven to twice attempt suicide by chewing through his own arteries, according to a transcript of a hearing released yesterday by the Pentagon.

Majid Khan, 27, one of 14 "high-value" suspects held for years by the CIA at secret foreign prisons before their transfer to Guantanamo Bay, also said he lost 30 pounds in 27 days during a hunger strike, according to the transcript. In a statement redacted in places by government censors, he complained of mistreatment that ranged from having his beard forcibly shaved and spending weeks without sunlight to the poor quality of the camp's weekly newsletter, it says."

How dare you question the government! You must be for the terr'rists! :rolleyes:

[.Andy]

Real Jack Bauer stuff there. Lol! Oh no! Not the sissy slap!
Not surprising you see the world through eyes of fiction.

[solvs]

Does anyone really like the idea of Gitmo and Abu Ghraib? You don't have a problem with innocent people being kidnapped, tortured, all in the name of freedom? Are you that desperate to defend the incompetence and corruption of the people you support by picking one kook as representative of the whole picture? Willing to ignore the overwhelming evidence that this is not the case for a majority of those who, even if guilty, are treated ways we decry our enemies for? That our system is set up to protect against because the FF realized such things could lead to abuse, especially against the innocent, to make us no better than those we fight against? Even the guilty get to have rights, because everyone has them or no one does. This is such a basic fundamental principle of our society, I'm continually amazed at those so ill informed as to not understand why such places hurt us all.

The real (http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444) (warning, graphic) story (here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14936-2004Dec20.html), here (http://www.countercurrents.org/hr-rose170504.htm), here (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/aug2004/tipt-a25.shtml), here (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1217973,00.html) here (http://web.amnesty.org/pages/guantanamobay-index-eng)).

[Swarmlord]

Does anyone really like the idea of Gitmo and Abu Ghraib?
Absolutely! We need somewhere to hold foreign nationals.

You don't have a problem with innocent people being kidnapped, tortured, all in the name of freedom? <snip>

Innocent? These must be some of those Baby Aspirin factory workers that found themselves holding AK-47s in the wrong place at the wrong time. I hate it when that happens.

[skunk]

Absolutely! We need somewhere to hold foreign nationals.Is this your considered opinion, or is it your attempt at humour? If it is your "considered" opinion, are you supporting the idea of holding people for four or five years without offering a shred of evidence against them? Is this the freedom and justice your heroes are fighting for? A serious answer, please.

[Swarmlord]

Is this your considered opinion, or is it your attempt at humour? If it is your "considered" opinion, are you supporting the idea of holding people for four or five years without offering a shred of evidence against them? Is this the freedom and justice your heroes are fighting for? A serious answer, please.

Not without a shred of evidence. If you think these guys were all day care workers, then you'd be sadly mistaken. Do you think that they should be just released back into Afganistan and hope they apply for jobs at the Red Crescent?

[leekohler]

Not without a shred of evidence. If you think these guys were all day care workers, then you'd be sadly mistaken. Do you think that they should be just released back into Afganistan and hope they apply for jobs at the Red Crescent?

Uh oh- skunk's gonna get you...;)

[Swarmlord]

Uh oh- skunk's gonna get you...;)

He work at Red Crescent? :eek:

[zimv20]

Not without a shred of evidence. If you think these guys were all day care workers, then you'd be sadly mistaken. Do you think that they should be just released back into Afganistan and hope they apply for jobs at the Red Crescent?

oldcorpse was right about you: you need authority. i'll tell you that it's completely antithetical to the basis on which this country was founded to trust the gov't so much.

especially after this bunch in the WH has proven itself so untrustworthy. the trust you have is tragically misplaced.

[skunk]

Not without a shred of evidence.You seem very sure. More sure, in fact, than some CIA operatives. Your sources must be very well-informed.AP: Gitmo Detainees Say They Were Sold

They fed them well. The Pakistani tribesmen slaughtered a sheep in honor of their guests, Arabs and Chinese Muslims famished from fleeing U.S. bombing in the Afghan mountains. But their hosts had ulterior motives: to sell them to the Americans, said the men who are now prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.

Bounties ranged from $3,000 to $25,000, the detainees testified during military tribunals, according to transcripts the U.S. government gave The Associated Press to comply with a Freedom of Information lawsuit.

A former CIA intelligence officer who helped lead the search for Osama bin Laden told AP the accounts sounded legitimate because U.S. allies regularly got money to help catch Taliban and al-Qaida fighters. Gary Schroen said he took a suitcase of $3 million in cash into Afghanistan himself to help supply and win over warlords to fight for U.S. Special Forces.

"It wouldn't surprise me if we paid rewards," said Schroen, who retired after 32 years in the CIA soon after the fall of Kabul in late 2001.http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0531-10.htm

And another even more egregious example:
From Times Online
May 4, 2007
Family greet London chef after Guantanamo ordeal

Sean O’Neill
A London chef held for four years in Guantanamo Bay on the basis of false information from an anonymous informant has been reunited with his family, The Times has learnt.

In his first comment since his release, Ahmed Errachidi thanked the hundreds of British people who wrote to him when he was interned. He was freed from the US detention camp last week and flown back to his native Morocco after the British Government refused to intervene on his behalf.

He was taken to a Moroccan prison and appeared in court in Rabat on Wednesday on terrorist charges. But local human-rights lawyers, instructed by the British charity Reprieve, argued successfully for the allegations to be dropped and secured his release.

Mr Errachidi, 40, who was working in the kitchen of a Mayfair hotel at a time when the US authorities claimed he was at an al-Qaeda camp in Afghanistan, was welcomed from jail by his wife and two sons, and returned to the family’s home in Tangiers. Speaking for the first time since his release, he said: “I received 283 letters from people in Britain, 283 beautiful letters that gave me so much hope.

“I am particularly grateful to the mothers and fathers who let their young children write to me and send me the little cards they had drawn, as it was a constant reminder of my own two young boys. I am very sorry not to have written back to each and every person, but I was treated very, very badly in Guantanamo. They held me in isolation for months on end, and I did not even have a pen.”

The chef, who worked in restaurants around London for 16 years, was detained in Pakistan in 2002 and, according to testimony to a US military tribunal, sold for a $5,000 (&#163;2,500) bounty to the CIA. At Guantanamo Bay, the internment camp at a US naval base on Cuba, the American guards nicknamed him “the General” in the mistaken belief that he was an al-Qaeda commander. Information from an unidentified source alleged that he had been at an al-Qaeda training camp in July 2001.

British lawyers were able to produce payslips and witnesses to show that during that month he had been cooking at the Westbury Hotel. Clive Stafford Smith, legal director of Reprieve and Mr Errachidi’s lawyer, said: “Ahmed’s case is an exhibit of everything that is wrong with Guantanamo Bay. The US military relied on false intelligence, saying Ahmed was the ‘General’ of al-Qaeda when he was a London chef.

“The US said Ahmed was training terrorists in Afghanistan at a time when he was cooking in a London hotel. When Ahmed was suffering from a mental breakdown, the US military continued to interrogate him.http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1744613.ece

Do you have any sassy little riposte to this one? For someone to have the gall to call themselves a "libertarian" when they have such scant respect for protecting other people's personal liberty is a bit of a sick joke, don't you think?

[Swarmlord]

You seem very sure. More sure, in fact, than some CIA operatives. Your sources must be very well-informed.http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0531-10.htm

And another even more egregious example:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1744613.ece

Do you have any sassy little riposte to this one? For someone to have the gall to call themselves a "libertarian" when they have such scant respect for protecting other people's personal liberty is a bit of a sick joke, don't you think?

If you want to believe that we're holding these guys and pumping them for years worth of cooking recipes and sheep herding techniques then go ahead. And no, I really am not concerned about the freedoms and rights of terrorists.

Perhaps you can write the State Department and get permission to house one of these misunderstood, sold out goat herders to stay at your home for a little cultural exchange.

[zimv20]

If you want to believe that we're holding these guys and pumping them for years worth of cooking recipes and sheep herding techniques then go ahead. And no, I really am not concerned about the freedoms and rights of terrorists.


just curious: if the CIA offered you $25k to say that i was a terrorist, would you do it?

[Swarmlord]

oldcorpse was right about you: you need authority. <snip>

Humans need authority. It's the downside to not completely depending on instinct like some species can.

[Swarmlord]

just curious: if the CIA offered you $25k to say that i was a terrorist, would you do it?

Do you think that they would offer it unless I had some evidence to support it? If you think they are that guillable, why stop at you? I'd just turn in the entire audience of the next Superbowl and retire.

[skunk]

And no, I really am not concerned about the freedoms and rights of terrorists.

Perhaps you can write the State Department and get permission to house one of these misunderstood, sold out goat herders to stay at your home for a little cultural exchange.You do not deserve your freedom.

[leekohler]

If you want to believe that we're holding these guys and pumping them for years worth of cooking recipes and sheep herding techniques then go ahead. And no, I really am not concerned about the freedoms and rights of terrorists.

And apparently not with the rights and freedoms of the innocent either. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you can write the State Department and get permission to house one of these misunderstood, sold out goat herders to stay at your home for a little cultural exchange.

Hmm...but maybe we should have them stay with you instead. Maybe you could learn something.

Do you think that they would offer it unless I had some evidence to support it? If you think they are that guillable, why stop at you? I'd just turn in the entire audience of the next Superbowl and retire.

You really don't get it, do you?

[Swarmlord]

You do not deserve your freedom.

And you once again prove why no one has asked you to be put in charge of this place.

[skunk]

Do you think that they would offer it unless I had some evidence to support it? If you think they are that gullible...I suppose you couldn't be bothered to read the article I quoted from the London Times, which establishes exactly that? Too inconvenient for your smug, authority-worshipping worldview, I suppose. I repeat, you do not deserve your liberty, and you have absolutely no right to claim you are a libertarian.

[Swarmlord]

<snip>Hmm...but maybe we should have them stay with you instead. Maybe you could learn something.

No thanks. I already lived over there and learned everything I need to know about them, their lifestyle, their religion and their plans of universal Sharia law.

I suppose you couldn't be bothered to read the article I quoted from the London Times, which establishes exactly that? Too inconvenient for your smug, authority-worshipping worldview, I suppose. I repeat, you do not deserve your liberty, and you have absolutely no right to claim you are a libertarian.

You should learn the difference between evidence and reporting. They are not the same thing.

And if liberty were earned, do you think that it wouldn't be stripped from a few already?

[leekohler]

I suppose you couldn't be bothered to read the article I quoted from the London Times, which establishes exactly that? Too inconvenient for your smug, authority-worshipping worldview, I suppose. I repeat, you do not deserve your liberty, and you have absolutely no right to claim you are a libertarian.

Of course he didn't read it. He's always right- don't you know that? He's one of the most pure neocons I've ever encountered. He drank the Kool-Aid a long time ago. There''s no need for him to read what you posted, he already knows the truth. :rolleyes:

You should learn the difference between evidence and reporting. They are not the same thing.

Do please give us your version. Can't wait.

[skunk]

You should learn the difference between evidence and reporting. They are not the same thing.In the absence of any evidence, we have to rely on reporting, don't we?

[Swarmlord]

Of course he didn't read it. He's always right- don't you know that? He's one of the most pure neocons I've ever encountered. He drank the Kool-Aid a long time ago. There''s no need for him to read what you posted, he already knows the truth. :rolleyes:



Do please give us your version. Can't wait.

By definition, the Kool-Aid is reserved for liberals.

It does crack me up that just because I don't agree with people on various postings that by definition means that I must not have read the article.

In the absence of any evidence, we have to rely on reporting, don't we?

You measure it with a grain of salt too.

[zimv20]

wow, swarmlord, either you're talking more rubbish as of late, or i'm just reading it more carefully. seriously, you talk a lot of crap. "by definition, koolaid is for liberals". wtf? you're just making **** up. unfunny ****. pure rubbish.

maybe it's time for me to ignore you, since i'm really getting zero value from your posts.

somewhere in you, i think you have something interesting and substantive to say. but you don't manage to get it out. it's like you're doing that whole "humor hiding pain" thing. or trying, since it's never funny.

[leekohler]

It does crack me up that just because I don't agree with people on various postings that by definition means that I must not have read the article.

Huh? How does one agree or disagree with a fact? That's confusing. A guy is put in Guantanamo and tortured for being a terrorist when he wasn't one. And you seem OK with that. You obviously don''t see the problem here. You didn't just drink a glass of the Kool-Aid, you took the whole pitcher!

[skunk]

I already lived over there and learned everything I need to know about them"He who thinks he knows".

[obeygiant]

"He who thinks he knows".

He who thinks he knows, doesn't know. He who knows that he doesn't know, knows.

~ Joseph Campbell

You're not going to claim that you don't know are you, skunk? :D

[skunk]

It's Socrates, not Joseph Campbell. Joseph Campbell was quoting.

I know I know nothing. Swarmlord knows everything there is to know, or so he seems to think.

[obeygiant]

It's Socrates, not Joseph Campbell. Joseph Campbell was quoting.

I know I know nothing. Swarmlord knows everything there is to know, or so he seems to think.

Oh sorry.. Socrates. I must be smarter than I think lol. :D

we know what we know, no?

[Swarmlord]

It's Socrates, not Joseph Campbell. Joseph Campbell was quoting.

I know I know nothing. Swarmlord knows everything there is to know, or so he seems to think.

I never claimed to know everything. I know everything that I NEED to know about islamic fundamentalism. I'm sure you have sources that provide you far more accurate information than living with and observing them in their native habitat though.

[leekohler]

I never claimed to know everything. I know everything that I NEED to know about islamic fundamentalism. I'm sure you have sources that provide you far more accurate information than living with and observing them in their native habitat though.

Nice dodge! Now get back OT. ;)

[mactastic]

So anyone accused of terrorism by the US government is ipso facto a terrorist? No trial needed?

[leekohler]

So anyone accused of terrorism by the US government is ipso facto a terrorist? No trial needed?

Of course not, silly. Trial, schmial. Where have you been? :) You don't even have to be charged with anything either. That goofy "due process" is just a waste of time. We KNOW you're a terrorist, so-and-so said you are, and they would NEVER lie. :rolleyes:

[OldCorpse]

What a mess in this thread, and yet the questions Swarmlord asked can be answered definitively, and without doubt. Actually, it's quite simple.

Innocent? These must be some of those Baby Aspirin factory workers that found themselves holding AK-47s in the wrong place at the wrong time. I hate it when that happens.

Yes. Innocent. Absolutely 100% innocent people are held in Guantanamo.

Who says so? It is the official position of the United States military. Is that good enough? Is that unimpeachable enough? When even the U.S. government, has officially declared these people innocent?

Exhibit #1

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0213/p03s03-usju.html

"Innocent, but in limbo at Guantánamo

Five Chinese Muslims, captured in Pakistan by mistake, try to get the US Supreme Court to take their case.

They shouldn't be there. Even the US military has found that the men, members of the besieged Uighur ethnic group, are not enemy combatants. But their ordeal in custody isn't over. Because they could face harsh treatment back in China - and the US doesn't want to set a precedent by granting them asylum here - they sit in a barracks-like detention center waiting for a country to give them a home.

Now, more than four years after their imprisonment by US military forces, the men are asking the US Supreme Court to examine their case. At issue is whether individuals captured abroad can be held in military detention indefinitely - even after the US government has declared that they pose no threat to national security.

"These men have been adjudged by the military to be, essentially, mistakes. They are innocent men captured by mistake by US forces abroad," says Neil McGaraghan, a lawyer representing two of the detainees.

Though the five are not considered enemy combatants, the men can be held indefinitely under the executive branch's power to wind up wartime detentions in an orderly fashion, government lawyers say."

Innocent people held for years. "Captured by mistake". And will continue to be held. Do you for one second believe that they are the only ones who are innocent there, the only ones "captured by mistake"?

How about we try to get some statistics, and estimates from unimpeachable sources? What would you guess the percentage of innocents are held in the hell holes Swarmland so warmly endorses - Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib? Would you guess it's 1% innocent? 10% innocent? 15% innocent? Well, if you guess that, you'd be wrong. The correct figure is 70% - 90% innocent. And the source? The coalition military intelligence officials - the very guys doing the job - and the report on what they said was given by the Red Cross of Switzerland:

Exhibit 2

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0511-04.htm

"Most 'Arrested by Mistake'
Coalition intelligence put numbers at 70% to 90% of Iraq prisoners, says a February Red Cross report, which details further abuses."

Who wants to bet that somehow these statistics are better in one hell hole versus another? Who supervises this, since the prisoners cannot get trials? Who wants to bet that the process is fair in those renditions by the CIA, the flying in by night and transfers from one torture prison to another?

Up to 90% are innocent. We KNOW they are innocent. The U.S. military and government admit as much, sometimes openly (see exhibit 1). There are no words for the kind of barbarism this administration has descended to. I deeply believe that only Nuremberg style trials can bring the war criminals to justice.

If you want to believe that we're holding these guys and pumping them for years worth of cooking recipes and sheep herding techniques then go ahead.

Oh. So you think that these guys sit there for years being "pumped" for information? "years worth"?

Exhibit #3:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9626-2004Oct5.html

"Most at Guantanamo to Be Freed or Sent Home, Officer Says

Most of the alleged al Qaeda and Taliban inmates at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, are likely to be freed or sent to their home countries for further investigation because many pose little threat and are not providing much valuable intelligence, the facility's deputy commander has said."

So, the majority - most of them don't provide "intelligence", and could be sent home. How very, very, very surprising - seeing as most are alleged to be enemy combatants or Al-Quada in the first place. If you grab a person at random from the streets of Afghanistan, why would you be surprised that they provide no intelligence?

So to answer your question directly: yes, the vast majority of the people at Guantanamo are held for years despite providing no info at all. The only thing being "pumped" for years is the hard on conservatives get when they hear how all those nasty terrarists are being waterboarded.

The U.S. military provides rewards to anyone who tips them off about a "terrorist". Even without the rewards, we've been time and again, taken in by someone (often anonymously) tipping off the U.S. military - and the fact is that in almost 100% of the cases, it's a jealous neighbor, or score settling, or pure greed. There have been cases where the father was denounced and arrested, so a guy can grab his daughter to marry her against her will, when the father can no longer protect her because he's rotting in an American jail, being tortured for "intelligence". It's a sham. The whole thing, is a sham.

Does it ever occur to you, why it is that we stand ALONE in the world when it comes to Guantanamo? With zero support, not even our partner in crime, Great Britain? Why even Tony Blair advises Bush to scrap the whole sorry mess because it is deeply damaging to our credibiity? No inkling?

Pathetic.

[leekohler]

You're wasting your time, OldCorpse. Swarmlord won't read what you posted, and if he does, will ignore it completely. He can't admit he's wrong- that would be so contrary to the neocon way.

[obeygiant]

Swarmlord won't read what you posted, and if he does, will ignore it completely.

Sure he will, at least the bold parts. :D

[Swarmlord]

You're wasting your time, OldCorpse. Swarmlord won't read what you posted, and if he does, will ignore it completely. He can't admit he's wrong- that would be so contrary to the neocon way.

I read it. I find it very hard to believe that we man and maintain that place full of these so called innocent people though. If it's true, then it won't be much longer before they're returned to their country of origin.

[OldCorpse]

You're wasting your time, OldCorpse. Swarmlord won't read what you posted, and if he does, will ignore it completely. He can't admit he's wrong- that would be so contrary to the neocon way.

To be honest, I didn't do it for Swarmlord. I did it for all those out there who still have an open mind, and who are willing to question. When I provide information, I try to give sources, and I try to find sources which are as unimpeachable as possible - hence links to direct statements by U.S. officials, military etc., all with links and quotations. Now look at those arguing the dark side... hmm, not much in the way of links to back up their stuff. I am not asking to be "believed" (I think you should question everything and everyone, including me) - I put my cards on the table, backing up everything I say. An objective observer may be convinced by it or not - but I do hope they'll notice the difference in quality of evidence we provide for our side versus the dark side. I am totally willing to be convinced either way - I just ask for evidence - if a conservative is able to prove his stance, I'm willing to adjust mine, and that's the advantage I will always have over conservatives (who can almost never admit a mistake or be convinced by "mere" facts).

[leekohler]

I read it. I find it very hard to believe that we man and maintain that place full of these so called innocent people though. If it's true, then it won't be much longer before they're returned to their country of origin.

Haha! That didn't take long. So predictable. ;)

[OldCorpse]

I read it. I find it very hard to believe that we man and maintain that place full of these so called innocent people though. If it's true, then it won't be much longer before they're returned to their country of origin.

And there you have it in a nutshell. I provide facts, and the other side provides "beliefs".

You'd think that facts - U.S. military sources, and official statements, would be stronger than "belief", but then you must take account of the conservative mind.

This war was sold on "belief". All this administration has is "belief". Facts can't trump such beliefs.

It's like religion. Religion is impervious to facts. Since religion by definition is based on "belief in the absence of evidence", to barrage a religious person with facts, or arguments, or science, or proof, or anything rational, is utterly pointless. No fact on earth can shake a relgious belief - and note, that conservatives are far more liable to be religious... as are authoritarians. And why the more you know, the more you question authority, and are liable to be less religious (the higher the educational level, the more liberal).

The entire world view of authoritarians is based on belief - not fact. And you can't argue with belief. Which is why conservatives always seem so woefully ignorant - why do research to discover facts, when you can believe? Facts are irrelevant to conservatives.

[pseudobrit]

I read it. I find it very hard to believe that we man and maintain that place full of these so called innocent people though. If it's true, then it won't be much longer before they're returned to their country of origin.

And if they're not returned to their country of origin, it follows that it's not true?

You're not libertarian; these are the ramblings of a fascist.

[LethalWolfe]

I read it. I find it very hard to believe that we man and maintain that place full of these so called innocent people though. If it's true, then it won't be much longer before they're returned to their country of origin.

Wow, that's impressive.


Lethal

[OldCorpse]

To those who are impervious to facts and reason, it makes not the slightest difference, but to the rest, those who want to learn the truth, facts matter. The more you know about the disaster that Gitmo is, the more you can evaluate the worth of that venture. The justification the rightwingers give is that Gitmo is all about terrorists, nowever unfortunate the abuses. The fact is, that Gitmo is an almost universal failure with maybe, at best 2 prisoners who might have lived up to the label of "valuable terrorist"

Here ar some facts and stats about Gitmo. The chief interrogator at Gitmo himself complains about too many "Mickey Mouse" prisoners sent to him. Let's look at some mindboggling facts:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/extras/radio/310_transcript.pdf

"In a new study by Seton Hall’s law school, researchers simply went to the trouble of reading the 517 Guantanamo case files released by the Pentagon. Here’s what they found:

Only 5&#37; of our detainees at Guantanamo were “scooped up” by American troops, on the battlefield or anywhere else. Five percent. The rest? We never saw them fighting.

And here’s something else: Only 8% of the detainees in Guantanamo are classified by the Pentagon as Al Qaeda fighters. In fact, Michael Donleavy, head of interrogations at Guantanamo, complained in 2002 that he was receiving too many “Mickey Mouse” prisoners."

How's that for batting average? Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you: 5%. That's it. Those are the guys we can at least say we caught in some kind of action. The rest is pure hearsay with no physical evidence. Overall, only 8% were even classified as AQ by our own Pentagon.

With this pathetic performance, the conservatives are outdoing each other in urging the use of torture on suspects. You are talking about inverting the entire concept of justice. Every civilized judicial system lives by the adage of "it is better to let a hundred men go guilty, than for one innocent to suffer." We have inverted that. We are happy to torture and detain hundreds, so that out of a possible 5%-8% we may get someone guilty. At which point, they won't even get a fair trial.

I wonder, if in all this blood frenzy, the administration apologists ask themselves about the cold balance of cost benefit of Gitmo? That whatever they get out of the handful of possibly real terrorists among the hundreds of innocents tortured, is worth the costs to our nation, hard costs?

Because as surely as night follows day, the bill will come.

[leekohler]

OMG- that's even more damning than I would have even thought.

[mactastic]

I read it. I find it very hard to believe that we man and maintain that place full of these so called innocent people though. If it's true, then it won't be much longer before they're returned to their country of origin.
Umm... if you got any news outside of the righty times you'd know that the US government is having difficulty finding countries willing to take the people the US has determined are innocent of terrorism charges.

Apparently the fear is that 5 years of being humiliated and tortured might make you a little bit of a problem in whatever society you try to fit into.

In fact I believe there were Uigers there who spent years at Gitmo after being found to be innocent because the US could not find a nation willing to accept them.

You're entitled to your own set of opinions, but not your own set of facts.

[OldCorpse]

In fact I believe there were Uigers there who spent years at Gitmo after being found to be innocent because the US could not find a nation willing to accept them.

A bit more complicated. The U.S. scr*wd up by mistakeny arresting the 5. That's a fact not disputed by anyone. No nation wants them, and if they are sent back to the place of origin they will be killed. The obvious thing to do, is to now give back to the 5 their lives which were stolen from them by the original U.S. mistake (not to mention years of torture) - do good on the mistake, which is to grant them asylum in this country, since they now have absolutely nowhere else to go to... it was our scr*wup which got them to that position in the first place. And that's where the wonderful administration's colors come through - they REFUSE to do the right thing and give them asylum, because, get this: it would set a precedent!!! A precedent for all the other hundreds and thousands of scr*wups! Now, we would be on hook for the consequences of our actions and our mistakes. And, in true Republican fashion - the buck never stops there, and we never want to do right and pay for our mistakes.

Btw. those particular detainees got a hearing at the republican supreme court and the supreme court weaseled out on a technicality - washed its hands of them. They now have no further legal recourse. They'll be held indefinitely. Totally innocent.

Yay, America! Another victory over terrarh! The whole world knows they are innocent, and we say so ourselves, but they'll do time nonetheless. Yay!

[solvs]

Not without a shred of evidence. If you think these guys were all day care workers, then you'd be sadly mistaken. Do you think that they should be just released back into Afganistan and hope they apply for jobs at the Red Crescent?
Uh, the "without a shred of evidence" part is what we have a problem with. Yes, some of them are innocent. The one who aren't, it would be nice if we could prove it. And then, only then, do we hold them. But even then, yes, they still deserve rights. That doesn't mean we release them, or treat them like they're in a 4 star hotel or anything, but because we are a civilized society, we shouldn't believe in cruel and unnecessary punishment. We just keep the guilty, after proving their guilt, in jail where they can serve their sentences and not be a threat to society.

But we don't do that. We don't even bother. We hold people who may be guilty, but may not be, that we don't bother trying in court. Then they use the term terrorist, so people like you think they no longer deserve any rights, and can say people like us just want them released them so we can kill us all, even though you know damn well we don't. There is a middle ground between letting them go/treating them better than they deserve and locking up even the innocent, torturing them, then getting pissed off if anyone raises an objection. We just believe in what America is supposed to stand for. Everyone gets rights or no one does. That's the way it works.

I read it. I find it very hard to believe that we man and maintain that place full of these so called innocent people though. If it's true, then it won't be much longer before they're returned to their country of origin.
So, in other words, you didn't read it. Because we are holding innocent people and we aren't sending them home. Read it again. You might learn something.

Wondering how you'd feel if it was you and yours. I know you had some issues when you were in the ME, which I guess you think makes it ok for you to denigrate an entire people, even the innocent ones, based on your experiences. But we're doing something very unAmerican. Something we (and you) criticize them for. Giving us no moral highground when others do it to us. Making it harder for our troops, who are in harms way because of our mistakes. Who we ask to fight and die for freedom, while we willingly give up ours because we're scared. While we wonder why they hate us, and why they want to attack us. Me, I'd rather we were the good guys. I'd rather we were civilized, something you criticize them for not being. I'd rather we remember that they are people, and that they deserve rights just like anyone else. And that the innocent should be protected, no thrown in prison to be tortured because we don't feel like doing the police work to prove their guilt even if they are. To protect everyone's rights, which protects ours.

First they came for the Muslims...

[hulugu]

Swarmlord,

We are fighting a war, a sharp and immediate conflict against a small group of fundamentalists who believe that spectacular violence is the only way to achieve their goals and who seek the destruction of the western world and all of its values. We are fighting a war against a small group who hope, for whatever personal reason, to instill a neo-caliphate and bring the Middle East back to its former glory.
To fight this war, we need every available trooper, translator, cop and intelligence officer and therefore when we spend time grabbing "Joe-Goat Herder" off the street and fly him to Gitmo to be questioned and treated cruely or at least unjustly, we are wasted resources and time. And not only are we wasting resources and time, we have committed a great sin, and that sin will follow us.
Gitmo has lost us friends in the Middle-East and Europe while simultaneously creating yet another recruiting slogan. And, what do we do with poor old Joe once we've kept him in a cage for years? Send him home, with a sorry and a pat on the back? Sorry about two years of your life there Joe, now go a be a good boy.

'Nuff said.

[skunk]

We are fighting a war, a sharp and immediate conflict against a small group of fundamentalists who believe that spectacular violence is the only way to achieve their goals and who seek the destruction of the western world and all of its values. We are fighting a war against a small group who hope, for whatever personal reason, to instill a neo-caliphate and bring the Middle East back to its former glory. Are we? Who are these people? As far as I can see, the only people we are fighting are (a) the remnants of the legitimate government of Afghanistan, and (b) a loose network of militias formed in response to our own illegal invasion and occupation of another sovereign state. We are fighting our own shadows.

[hulugu]

Are we? Who are these people? As far as I can see, the only people we are fighting are (a) the remnants of the legitimate government of Afghanistan, and (b) a loose network of militias formed in response to our own illegal invasion and occupation of another sovereign state. We are fighting our own shadows.

First, let me clarify. We should be fighting this small group, but our political and military failures in both Afghanistan and Iraq has created a myraid more. We're not only fighting the remnants of Al-Qaeda, but various copy-cat groups, the warlords of Afghanistan, religious militias, and a host of other groups.

Question, with a) are you saying that the Taliban was the legitimate government of Afghanistan?

[skunk]

Question, with a) are you saying that the Taliban was the legitimate government of Afghanistan?Yes.

[hulugu]

Yes.

What about the Northern Alliance?

[skunk]

Nowhere close. It was the Taleban that the State Department, Chevron, Enron, Centgas and Karzai were negotiating with in 2001 to build a pipeline, and it was Taleban "ministers" who were invited to Texas for negotiations.

[mactastic]

And it was the Taliban who were recieving US taxpayer monies to erradicate opium poppies. With no verification to see that what our money bought was actually accomplished. Which of course it wasn't.

[skunk]

And it was the Taliban who were recieving US taxpayer monies to erradicate opium poppies. With no verification to see that what our money bought was actually accomplished. Which of course it wasn't.Oh, come on, be fair: opium production under the Taliban was far lower than it is now.

[obeygiant]

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9840/talibanna0.jpg

Oh, come on, be fair: opium production under the Taliban was far lower than it is now.

Priceless buddha statue destruction was also at an all time high.

[leekohler]

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9840/talibanna0.jpg



Priceless buddha statue destruction was also at an all time high.

Yes it was. The Taliban were a horrible organization, no denying that.

[OldCorpse]

The Taliban were/are absolute scum - they were all about their religion-on-top-of-state solutions. Too bad the Christian Taliban is trying to institute a similar church-on-top-of-state solution here.

When the forces of the dark - religion, any religion, gain the upper hand, they inevitably bring the dark ages with them. So far our constitution is holding us away from the disaster - but it is being undermined and whittled away by dark forces here as well.

[Peterkro]

Reminds me of the "priceless" archaeology sites destroyed in Iraq by the ... oh hold on,who was that?

[obeygiant]

Reminds me of the "priceless" archaeology sites destroyed in Iraq by the ... oh hold on,who was that?

which ones were those again?

[skunk]

which ones were those again?These, for example:
Army base 'has damaged Babylon'
Coalition forces in Iraq have caused irreparable damage to the ancient city of Babylon, the British Museum says.
Sandbags have been filled with precious archaeological fragments and 2,600 year old paving stones have been crushed by tanks, a museum report claims.

The US Army says the troops based in the city, some 50 miles (80km) south of Baghdad, are well aware of its historical significance.

Babylon's Hanging Gardens were among the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.

Cascades

The legendary gardens featured water diverted from mountain streams cascading down artificial hills built upon stone vaults.

American troops occupied the site in April 2003, initially to protect it from looters and vandals.

John Curtis, author of the museum's report, said this was "tantamount to establishing a military camp around Stonehenge".

"About 300,000 square metres of the surface of the site has been flattened and covered with compacted gravel and sometimes chemically treated," he said.

"This will contaminate the archaeological record of the site."

He added: "I noted about 12 trenches, one of them 170m long, which had been dug through the archaeological deposits."

Mr Curtis, who is curator of the museum's Near East department, also found evidence of fuel leaks.

Awe-inspiring

But US military spokesman Lt Col Steven Boylan said the base, which has around 6,000 troops under Police command, is needed to "further defeat terrorists and insurgents".

He told BBC Newshour: "Any of the excavations or earth work that we have done in order to do our operations... was done in consultation with the Babylon museum director and an archaeologist."

At the height of its power, Babylon was an awe-inspiring sight, with two sets of fortified walls surrounding massive palaces and religious buildings.

It became one of the most important cities in Mesopotamia, one of the cradles of human civilisation.

Iraq is home to 10,000 archaeological sites.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4177577.stm

[OldCorpse]

which ones were those again?

Typical conservative ignorance.

The present day Iraq lies on what is called the "cradle of civilization" of Mesopotamia. It is one of the richest sites of archeological treasures anywhere in the world. By comparison, Afghanistan has almost nothing if matched against Iraq... it's not even 10,000 : 1.

And since the war, the situation has been catastrophic. Direct destruction, and theft and looting in the wake of the invasion have irreperably damaged countless sites.

Here's a brief article, with just a taste of the disaster we brought about:

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/10/6F5F571B-F0F8-4FF9-899F-B8341676574B.html

"Scholars have indicated that the state of Iraq's archeological and cultural treasures is grim. Immediately following the collapse of the former Iraqi regime and the subsequent breakdown of law and order, the Iraqi National Museum in Baghdad was looted. The museum's staff indicated that almost 14,000 pieces were stolen and only about 5,400 have so far been recovered, many from the black market in the United States, Italy, England, and Switzerland, "All Headline News" reported on September 16."

[OldCorpse]

It amuses me endlessly, now conservatives are so eager to seize on whatever the crimes of Taliban were, in order to shore up their own excuses to invade and murder.

Yet at the very same time, whatever the crimes of Taliban, the Christian Taliban inspired criminals here do much, much worse. And so too with the destruction of archeological treasures. We have destroyed 10,000 times more in one year than the Taliban in their entire history. Same as every other crime - tally up the Taliban executions, and the deaths in Iraq, and again, we are far, far, far, worse.

I say again - a pox on both their houses. Religion, in whatever form, the moment it mixes with politics, whether directly ("God told me to invade Iraq"), or indirectly, is a crime against civilization. And the conservatives are behind it all the way. Funny to see them point fingers when they commit the very same crimes on a much larger scale!

[obeygiant]

Typical conservative ignorance.



Easy tiger, I know the historical significance of the area. I just wanted someone to post what historical targets the US blew up because they were historical. Those morons, the Taliban, blew up a statue 1000s of years old because it didn't jibe with their specific brand of Islam.


From YOUR article:
Elizabeth Stone, an anthropologist at Stony Brook University in New York who has conducted numerous excavations in southern Iraq, accused the ministry of not doing enough to protect pre-Islamic sites. "What is striking is that the Islamic parts are left alone, whereas the immediate pre-Islamic sites are not", she said. She also said she heard rumors that Islamic militants were looting artifacts and selling them to fund their activities.

[leekohler]

Easy tiger, I know the historical significance of the area. I just wanted someone to post what historical targets the US blew up because they were historical. Those morons, the Taliban, blew up a statue 1000s of years old because it didn't jibe with their specific brand of Islam.


From YOUR article:

And we blew them up just because. :rolleyes: What was the reason again? WMDs?

[OldCorpse]

Easy tiger, I know the historical significance of the area. I just wanted someone to post what historical targets the US blew up because they were historical. Those morons, the Taliban, blew up a statue 1000s of years old because it didn't jibe with their specific brand of Islam.

Fat lot of difference it made to the historical sites, didn't it?

Yeah, the Taliban nutjobs blew up historical treasures because of their idiotic reasons.

Our Christian Taliban nutjobs blew up a whole country, including historical treasures, for our idiotic reasons.

Boy, our reasons were oh so legitimate - a pack of lies and forgeries.

Doesn't seem to have made a difference to the historical treasures - both idiotic reasons destroyed them equally well... fancy that!

I love it how our nutjobs point fingers at their nutjobs, while committing much greater crimes themselves.

Personally, I'd love to lock all the nutjobs regardless of flavor on one island so they can go cannibal on each other. There's a lot of fat in your average conservative redneck :)... you know the South (redneck Jesusland) has the highest rates of obesity in the country... it'll be a great match - skinny Taliban eager to gorge on the fat holyrollers, meanwhile the holyrollers didn't get to be so fat without snacking - and so they're eyeing the Taliban with great appetite. Let ESPN get a feed in, and charge big bucks for the viewers :)

Joking aside, seriously, it's uncanny how hypocritical our conservatives are: I guess they don't see the tree branch in their own eye, but are eager to point out the speck in the other's. Make that a whole tree, heck, the Amazon jungle. A pox on both their houses.

[solvs]

The Taliban was bad. Still are. No one is arguing that. Which is why we're so pissed that we've screwed things up so badly. Bad enough we helped them into power in the first place, but then we made things worse after 9/11 and Iraq so now they're more powerful than ever. Same with other, even worse organizations with similar goals. We gave them fodder. As bad as they are, we are seen as worse. They are the lesser evil than us to them. That doesn't sit right with a lot of us.

[leekohler]

Fat lot of difference it made to the historical sites, didn't it?

Yeah, the Taliban nutjobs blew up historical treasures because of their idiotic reasons.

Our Christian Taliban nutjobs blew up a whole country, including historical treasures, for our idiotic reasons.

Boy, our reasons were oh so legitimate - a pack of lies and forgeries.

Doesn't seem to have made a difference to the historical treasures - both idiotic reasons destroyed them equally well... fancy that!

I love it how our nutjobs point fingers at their nutjobs, while committing much greater crimes themselves.

Personally, I'd love to lock all the nutjobs regardless of flavor on one island so they can go cannibal on each other. There's a lot of fat in your average conservative redneck :)... you know the South (redneck Jesusland) has the highest rates of obesity in the country... it'll be a great match - skinny Taliban eager to gorge on the fat holyrollers, meanwhile the holyrollers didn't get to be so fat without snacking - and so they're eyeing the Taliban with great appetite. Let ESPN get a feed in, and charge big bucks for the viewers :)

Joking aside, seriously, it's uncanny how hypocritical our conservatives are: I guess they don't see the tree branch in their own eye, but are eager to point out the speck in the other's. Make that a whole tree, heck, the Amazon jungle. A pox on both their houses.

Some of us are prepared for a fight where ever it comes from. I've been on a workout a Navy friend gave me for the last 10 or so years. And yes, I'm bragging at ths point. ;)

[zimv20]

Some of us are prepared for a fight where ever it comes from. I've been on a workout a Navy friend gave me for the last 10 or so years. And yes, I'm bragging at ths point. ;)

yeah, i'd want you on my side. no doubt.

[leekohler]

yeah, i'd want you on my side. no doubt.

Haha! Well, since I've met you in person, I'll take that as the highest of compliments. ;)

[solvs]

I've been on a workout a Navy friend gave me for the last 10 or so years. And yes, I'm bragging at ths point. ;)

We don't want to hear about your sex life... :p

( maybe later ;) )

[mactastic]

which ones were those again?
LOL! Would you like some salt for your other foot, my good man?

[obeygiant]

LOL! Would you like some salt for your other foot, my good man?

I don't know what that means, but I'll bet it's not a compliment. Who knew?

I'm still waiting for anyone to post a incident where the US willfully destroyed a historic site because it was historic like the Taliban did.

In regards to the looting of the Iraqi museum, that was a big mistake in that the US and coalition forces overestimated the Iraqis own sense of social contract not to steal from themselves. In hind sight, yes, the museum should have been guarded.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8923/a5a71355726c4ca79eedbbeme6.jpg

[geese]

In regards to the looting of the Iraqi museum, that was a big mistake in that the US and coalition forces overestimated the Iraqis own sense of social contract not to steal from themselves. In hind sight, yes, the museum should have been guarded.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8923/a5a71355726c4ca79eedbbeme6.jpg

Blaming the Iraqi's for the military's incompetence- neat.

[obeygiant]

Blaming the Iraqi's for the military's incompetence- neat.

Well, they were not forced to loot the museum. Unless you have other information that no one else has.

[skunk]

Well, they were not forced to loot the museum.They may not have been forced to, but, judging from the 4,500 artefacts recovered from Western countries afterwards, they were almost certainly paid to. It is anyway the responsibility of the occupying power to safeguard such national heritage, especially considering that the occupying power alleged that it was acting on behalf of the Iraqi people. They managed to post guards around the Oil Ministry, somehow.

[mactastic]

Shorter Obeygiant: "It's all OK as long as we're not quite as bad as the Taliban."

[geese]

Well, they were not forced to loot the museum. Unless you have other information that no one else has.

In the same way people weren't forced to loot shops in New Orleans during Katrina.

[obeygiant]

It is anyway the responsibility of the occupying power to safeguard such national heritage, especially considering that the occupying power alleged that it was acting on behalf of the Iraqi people.

Thats true. Perhaps they were busy.

At least they didn't blow it up because it wasn't full of christian artifacts.

[skunk]

Thats true. Perhaps they were busy.

At least they didn't blow it up because it wasn't full of christian artifacts.They were obviously too busy bulldozing Babylon.

[obeygiant]

In the same way people weren't forced to loot shops in New Orleans during Katrina.

Are you saying that people in New Orleans have little social contract? *gasp*

[skunk]

Are you saying that people in New Orleans have little social contract? *gasp*No, no, that was different, they were White Folks. They wrote the Social Contract, they can tear it up.

[geese]

Thats true. Perhaps they were busy.

At least they didn't blow it up because it wasn't full of christian artifacts.

That makes it a bit better then. :rolleyes:

[mactastic]

At least they didn't blow it up because it wasn't full of christian artifacts.
And again, the Obeygiant requirement for sleeping well at night: We're slightly better than the Taliban!

[zimv20]

Shorter Obeygiant: "It's all OK as long as we're not quite as bad as the Taliban."

or:
the brownies are always responsible for their own misfortunes.

[solvs]

We're slightly better than the Taliban!

Sometimes. :(

[OldCorpse]

Well, they were not forced to loot the museum. Unless you have other information that no one else has.

Er, no, that's not how it works. Legally, as an occupying power we are totally responsible for any breakdown in law and order. Totally, 100&#37;.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140892003

"The forces of the USA and UK, as occupying powers under international law, have clear obligations to protect the Iraqi population. These obligations derive from international humanitarian law, which has long defined the rules on belligerent occupation, complemented by human rights law, which binds any state exercising jurisdiction or control over a territory. The USA and UK must fulfil their obligations and continue to do so for as long as they exercise military authority over Iraq."

We don't get to invade, demolish the social fabric of a country, remove their police and military, and then blame any breakdown in law and order on the civilian population! How perverse!

Sorry, the U.S. and GB are 100% responsible for all the looting and breakdown in law and order. That includes the destruction of historical treasures.

Again: regardless of method - the artifacts are destroyed either way - we are responsible for far more destruction of historical treasures than the Taliban. We are 100% responsible. And that's a fact.

[solvs]

Legally, as an occupying power we are totally responsible for any breakdown in law and order. Totally, 100%.

This is the Bush administration. The buck stops... over there.