What Happened to Piles?

[MacRumors]

Spymac notes (http://www.spymac.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30075) a small mixup which supressed early information about Exposé and inadvertantly brought Piles to the forefront in the rumor scene.

MacEdition first wrote (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/04/20030413220229.shtml) about a new feature called "Piles" -- and even linked to weblog describing (http://www.asktog.com/columns/035SquanAdv.html) Apple's old patent -- Piles.

MacEdition, however, went on to describe Exposé in the same article:

Mac OS X 10.3 will finally see the implementation of the “piles” interface concept patented by Apple back in the dear, dead days of Copland but never delivered to the desktop. The feature, which has been lobbied for by Bruce Tognazzini (http://www.asktog.com/columns/035SquanAdv.html) and other interface curmudgeons, is designed to ease the clutter of windows in the Finder: The Blade’s sources indicate that extraneous windows will shrink and jump out of the way automatically, rearranging themselves into scaled-down tiles in response to the user’s movements.)

This description was later lost after more detailed descriptions of Apple's Piles Patent emerged, and overtook the rumors.

[mityx]

When the Piles rumors were milling about I couldn't quite figure out the usefulness of it.

Sure it sounded cool....but what would you really use it for?
Folders accomplish the same thing.

I'm glad we've got Expose instead of Piles.
Expose rocks! That feature alone makes me want to plunk down the $129.

[Mudbug]

You know, I wondered about this when it first disappeared from the rumor pipeline. I couldn't figure out how so much hubub could be started about something that simply didn't exist. but I'm still a little confused - is expose an implimentation of piles, or something else entirely?

[arn]

Originally posted by Mudbug
You know, I wondered about this when it first disappeared from the rumor pipeline. I couldn't figure out how so much hubub could be started about something that simply didn't exist. but I'm still a little confused - is expose an implimentation of piles, or something else entirely?

something else entirely

arn

[beatle888]

that is FUNNY. how we can have the truth in our hands and disregard it. actually thats SCARY!

[jimthorn]

That's interesting. I hadn't made the conceptual link between Piles and Expose... it would seem that the rumor community had a lot of info about Expose, but didn't realize it.

For my money, Expose is about 100 times more exciting and useful than I ever imagined Piles could be. Bring on Panther!

And for pure entertainment value, I loved the Expose demo in the Keynote:

Steve: Zoom in. *click* Zoom out. *click* Boom. *click* Boom. *click* And Boom. *click*
Entire audience: *stunned silence with big grins*

[beatle888]

piles is not exposé. read the post again. exposé functionality was mentioned in the same article (or whatever the source was) as piles....two different things....this time we got exposé.

[simX]

So can we assume that the screenshots of the Piles features were faked?

[daytona63]

I dunno, but when I saw Expose, I was instantly reminded of piles. I know they perhaps act different, what with the former having to do with windows and the latter to do with files and such (seemingly), but I think it's all the same concept. Perhaps this is just a better implementation of that basic concept, or perhaps Apple is looking to go further than just Expose.
As a sidenote, Expose also reminded me a little bit of the way that computers were navigated in the movie "Minority Report." Basically, Expose allows the user to stand back and get a general view of everything going on in his computer, then focus in on the task at hand, just like in the movie. So yes, perhaps Expose is just the beginning...

[coolfactor]

Originally posted by simX
So can we assume that the screenshots of the Piles features were faked?

Yes, someone simply rotated some text clipping icons to create that fake. Piles are neat idea that could further distinguish OS X from other OS's, but it's not doing anything more than folders already do.

However, just like packages have drastically simplified the use of applications by grouping a collection of files into a single icon, I think Piles could do the same for documents. As a web developer, I'm frequently working on groups of related files, so a double-click on a pile to open up one of those groups would be very handy.

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by jimthorn

Steve: Zoom in. *click* Zoom out. *click* Boom. *click* Boom. *click* And Boom. *click*
Entire audience: *stunned silence with big grins*

I have 8 more words to add to that:

Boom Boom Boom Boom Boom Boom Boom Boom! :)

[paulie]

Having spent the better portion of a day using Expose now, I can see how the original Piles idea spawned this fantastic little tool.

When I first heard the rumors about piles, I was excited because my desktop is a mess. I have at least 4 or 5 different projects I'm working on, and people are always coming up to me asking to see where any given project is at. I was hoping I'd be able to sort my daily work into different piles, so I'd be able to more quickly access data when I needed to.

Expose makes it easy for me to keep my work open, saving me the time and hassle of having to open and close apps. It keeps work I don't need to immediately deal with out of the way, but within easy reach when a co-worker comes up and needs some vital information in a hurry.

Instead of using the old idea of piles to have my data sorted but unavailable, Expose lets me keep the resources I need closer at hand.

Expose is piles done right, though I will say that hot-corners with my innacurate mousing have become a bit annoying, and I've already turned them off (except for keeping bottom-right to show my desktop).

Bravo Apple, I can't wait to move from this Developer's release to the real deal.

[foniks2020]

Does Expose also tile hidden or even just minimized windows?

[ezmobius]

In the apple patent for piles, they describe it as being an additional way to organize docs in addition to folders. Piles is supposed to be able to see into all folders and organize docs according to kind, size,when created,etc... but it also can organize files according to content, such as a common name, address, http, or anything else you can think of. To me this sounds like an extremely usefull feature. So while i can see how piles and expose' are easily confused expose is something entirely different(and maybe even more usefull):p

[soosy]

I could see piles working very similar to Exposé, except on files rather than application windows. Seeing window contents with Exposé is so much more useful than seeing File Icons though. Still I think it would be useful....

Hey all the sudden it reminds me of the way OS 9 did spring-loaded folders. If you did a "click and half" on a folder then it would spring open temporarily w/o having to drag a file in. This would be very similar to piles. The folder is the collection of documents. You click and hold to temporarily open it. When you release, it closes.

Hmmmm... makes piles seem a little less necessary—a folder is already have collections of files! Yeah so it would behave/appear a little differently, but not dramatically so.

[sinclairZX81]

Originally posted by mityx
When the Piles rumors were milling about I couldn't quite figure out the usefulness of it.

Sure it sounded cool....but what would you really use it for?
Folders accomplish the same thing.


no they don't.

[bretm]

Originally posted by coolfactor
However, just like packages have drastically simplified the use of applications by grouping a collection of files into a single icon, I think Piles could do the same for documents. As a web developer, I'm frequently working on groups of related files, so a double-click on a pile to open up one of those groups would be very handy.

Gosh I hate packages! In the past, I used to keep all sorts of stuff related to a piece of sofware (downloaded updates, plugins, pdf manuals, freeware add-ons, .sit files, etc.) within the folder where the application was. For example in Final Cut Pro folder I had a folder called "not installed by final cut pro" and that was all the stuff like additional plugins. Every time I updated FCP, I just made sure I backed up that folder. Thank goodness Adobe hasn't implemented the package thing. I know I could put the packages in a folder, but then it might screw up software update.

[bretm]

Originally posted by sinclairZX81
no they don't.

Right. Piles showed the documents in the pile as you moused over. Way to extrapolate. Although I did liike the straightforward - no they don't quite a bit.

[MasonMcD]

Piles and Exposé both act to solve the window mess by "fanning out the cards" so to speak.

Maybe this can be incorporated into browsing the file system, but now is relegated to open windows.

[MhzDoesMatter]

Originally posted by soosy
I could see piles working very similar to Exposé, except on files rather than application windows. Seeing window contents with Exposé is so much more useful than seeing File Icons though. Still I think it would be useful....

<snip>

a folder is already have collections of files! Yeah so it would behave/appear a little differently, but not dramatically so.

Well if piles was dynamic like expose is, it might be a great feature for me. Expose has two major actions. Organizing and clearing.

Sometimes, after going onto my network or intranet site, I copy/download so many files to my desktop that they fill the screen and begin overlapping. This is far from Organized or clear. But, if (my) Piles was tied into a hot-key or placed in a contextual menu, (dam useless function keys) then I'd be able press a single key and or right click a particular file, and all other files not that file type would vanish off of the screen and the remaining files would line up in order or the other files would simply "pile up". At the very least (my) Piles would be able to quickly organize the files by type, date created, or any criteria, by creating piles of them by their labels (reintroduced in panther), keywords in their comments, or even common filenames.

I don't know. I just think Piles as it was spread on the internet was a little to simple. Not nearly as "elegant" or purposeful as Expose. "My Piles," as I've begun to call it, is just what I think Piles should be.

-Hertz

[sinclairZX81]

Originally posted by bretm
Right. Piles showed the documents in the pile as you moused over. Way to extrapolate. Although I did liike the straightforward - no they don't quite a bit. ]


the point is not the visual UI behaviour/representation of piles but the functionality. think iTunes smart playlists but for the finder.

[spullara]

I think the piles concept was replaced with the fast search feature. These are essentially the same except that ad hoc searching is better and faster than the act of first organizing your documents by piles, then finding the right pile whenever you need a document. Fast searching is like Piles on steroids. Bookmarks for searches would make it that much faster and easier. Perhaps that is available. I am getting the beta tomorrow, we'll see.

[mospeada]

Originally posted by MasonMcD
Piles and Exposé both act to solve the window mess by "fanning out the cards" so to speak.

Maybe this can be incorporated into browsing the file system, but now is relegated to open windows.

I was thinking just that. Couldn't they do this with files?

Imagine if you will: you have a pile of files that are related to each other, say a bunch of Photoshop files or all files in a project you are working on (txt, email, spreadsheet, KeyNote, etc). You click-hold and BOOM, all of the files zoom out and show a preview of their contents. You hover and release the mouse over the file you want to launch.

Of course, the hard part would be generating a preview of all of the files without launching them and without a slowdown after you initiate the action.

[owlicks]

Has anyone tried the latest version of Windowshade X by Unsanity perhaps? It's a Public preview of 3.0. Anyways, it has a feature very similar to piles in which you can minimize windows so they animate and shrink down, then when you mouseover they can expand to as big as you want, or you can click to make them full size. It's an interesting concept, but I'll stick with my window shading ;)

[sinclairZX81]

Originally posted by spullara
I think the piles concept was replaced with the fast search feature. These are essentially the same except that ad hoc searching is better and faster than the act of first organizing your documents by piles, then finding the right pile whenever you need a document. Fast searching is like Piles on steroids. Bookmarks for searches would make it that much faster and easier. Perhaps that is available. I am getting the beta tomorrow, we'll see.

yes a 'pile' is like a saved search (and is dynamic of course). its just a UI metaphor for a query basically.

[biscuit]

Originally posted by owlicks
Has anyone tried the latest version of Windowshade X by Unsanity perhaps? It's a Public preview of 3.0. Anyways, it has a feature very similar to piles in which you can minimize windows so they animate and shrink down, then when you mouseover they can expand to as big as you want, or you can click to make them full size. It's an interesting concept, but I'll stick with my window shading ;)

This is Minimise in Place and it was a feature of some of the Jaguar builds. You can get it without Windowshade X by downloading the Dock program from one of those builds.

I've got it installed, doesn't cause any difficulties. But I don't find myself using MIP that much. The floating windows tend to get in the way a little bit because they are in front of everything. Also, they're usually too small to tell what's in them and there's no title when you mouse over either. I tend to forget that it's there to be honest, then I'll remember and use it for a day or so.

Might be nicer on a QE machine too, the animation can be a little dodgy on my iBook...

biscuit

[ssamani]

Originally posted by sinclairZX81
]


the point is not the visual UI behaviour/representation of piles but the functionality. think iTunes smart playlists but for the finder.

I completely agree. The impression that I got was that Piles were originally not necessarily meant to be dynamic, but the combination of advanced meta data (think ID3 tags used for Smart Playlists in iTunes), Piles and Smart dynamic updating could do wonders for file organisation. I always have a headache trying to decide weather to have my data organised by project or by document type or some other way. If only I could cut it in multiple ways - like Lotus Notes (and an appallingly bad take on it in Outlook) - would be great.

Not exactly new user functionality though - it would take a bit of an advanced user to get used to the fact that file exists in one definite directory but can be seen in various smart folders or piles. In the end I think Piles will be a view option on a folder, rather than a separate entity as such. And then you'll have Smart (dynamic) and normal folders.

As for expose - it would do wonders for working on my PowerBook.

Sanj

[sigamy]

Just wondering if anyone with the developer's preview has tried Exposé on older hardware--without QE support?

I'd love to use this on my 500mhz iBook....will I be able to?

Thanks,
Brian

[Stella]

Personally, I went to the Doctors and got my piles sorted out.

:-D

[slowtreme]

BeOS has a feature Similar to Piles.

You set a "folder" to have certain attributes. them that folder really just becomes a live search tool. Nothing is in a Pile but shortcuts to the actual files that you have defined as a set.

Like an "MP3 MIXes" folder (Search for MP# and file size over 10 mb). clicking it would actually contain no files, but would look like it's full of all the MP3s on my HD that are bigger than 10mb. they are really just simlinks to the real files. Even editing them will update the original file.

I dont have BeOS running anymore. but with the journaling of BeOS and the PoSIX Simlinks, this was easy to do.

[php]

Couldn't Apple have thought up a better name for a new feature than "piles"? "Piles" is a synonym for hemorrhoids. :D

[rmac]

On a somewhat related note....anyone else remember reading about the "Shelf" GUI element? Think it was used in NeXT as a place to temporarily put a file you wanted to move. You would take it from the source folder and place it on the shelf. Then you could navigate to the destination folder and the item there from off the shelf.

Depending on how that new left sidebar is implemented on Finder windows, it may act like a shelf. Just another solution to go along with using multiple finder windows and/or spring loaded folders, but I could see myself using it sometimes.

[phrancpharmD]

What I interpreted "Piles" to be would have been interesting and I would have probably ended up using it - the problem being, of course, that creating "piles" of hard copies is my non-computer filing method of choice, and I can hardly ever find what I'm looking for. So "piles" on my Mac would have most certainly disabled my abilities to find ANYTHING, because I'd have one big "pile" of "crap!" Expose seems much more useful and less dangerous for me to use. . .

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by slowtreme
You set a "folder" to have certain attributes. them that folder really just becomes a live search tool. Nothing is in a Pile but shortcuts to the actual files that you have defined as a set. I wouldn't be surprised to see this in the final release. The main requirement for it is the fast searching, which is already built in to Panther. Obviously there's an additional intercept layer in the filesystem code that ties in to a meta-data database of sorts. In fact, the addition of transparent encrypt/decrypt implies a different use of the same concept (to me at least). Once these are solid (may be so now), tying in Smart Folders to it wouldn't be that big a deal.

Personally, I would have them configurable... On a workstation you could have them update on file-save actions so that there'd be a little more overhead on each file-op but browsing would be immediate. On a large-scale shared system or file server, you could have them (using the fast searching) update on folder views, taking a little more time to use but without the extra hit on every file-op. But that's just me.

-Richard

-Richard

[kansaigaijin]

is not Expos(the baseball team),
or Expose (to reveal),

it is Expos…~ (e†vk'spo†z-za†z�f)…An.

1. An exposure or a revelation of something discreditable.
2. A formal exposition of facts.


[French, past participle of exposer, to expose, from Old French. See expose.]

to type it, option-e, then "e"

[stickman67]

I can understand why many of you don't see the point of Piles (of the non-medical variety), but for me they would be a great alternative to conventional folders.

I edit and typeset books. Therefore I quite often have, say, 20 text files (for chapters), then 20 layout files, and often more than 100 scans. The text and scans often go into their own subfolders, or else things tend either to get messy, or it takes ages to scroll through the main publication folder. And if there are lots of scans, they might even be divided into subsubfolders within the scans subfolder. So we're beginning to talk about a multi-level navigation feat just at the finder level, let alone at the dialogue-box level within apps.

OK, since OS X things are much better than they were with regard to navigation, and they'll get better in Panther. But for me to have a single folder for each publication that has a pile of layout files, a pile of text files, and a pile of scans would make things easier for me. That simple.

It's just another tool, but it would have its uses.

[Sedulous]

Yeah, it would be great if expose will run on older hardware (such as the cube). Anyone have insight into this?

[ibookin']

Originally posted by Sedulous
Yeah, it would be great if expose will run on older hardware (such as the cube). Anyone have insight into this?

It runs on my iBook 800, so I expect that it will work on a Cube.

[whooleytoo]

Originally posted by slowtreme
BeOS has a feature Similar to Piles.

You set a "folder" to have certain attributes. them that folder really just becomes a live search tool. Nothing is in a Pile but shortcuts to the actual files that you have defined as a set.


Yup, Copland had these too, though I'm not sure which came first.
As someone else pointed out, it's very similar to iTunes dynamic playlists.

Speaking of which, one thing I'm pleased to see is the consistency across Mac apps now; iPhoto, iTunes, even the new Finder are similar in appearance and function.

Mike.