Upgrade Potential of the PowerMac G5?

[MacRumors]

In perhaps what should be taken in the strictest definition of a rumor, one Xlr8yourmac.com post (http://bbs.xlr8yourmac.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/000024.html) indicates that one Apple engineer suggested that the PowerMac G5's may be difficult to upgrade (Processors) due to cooling/venting requirements:

One thing he said is that it will be extremely difficult to upgrade the chips in this machine. Each computer is uniquely paired with its processors to have perfect venting. Changing out processors would throw off the chip that handles the G5 cooling, resulting in (at best) the computer running for a while then shutting off, or (at worst) a non-booting machine.

Obviously, more information will become available in the months to come, as machines become available and upgrade vendors gain access to these machines.

[Mudbug]

I'm sure if you give someone long enough, they'll find a way to upgrade the thing. What good is a computer if you can't upgrade it around 2 years later or so?

[DrGonzo]

I don't buy it, that doesn't make sense to me in the fact that changing the cpu would affect cooling beyond basic fans and shutoff timers. If the cpus are replaceable/upgradeable then worries over cooling should be non-existant. This makes sense that they'd custom tune each cooling system for the cpu(s) in there, but I think for most of the community doing an upgrade of a cpu would also mean an upgrade into a bigger/better cooling system. Most corp. and small home mac users aren't going to be doing any upgrading with that, but i wish there was a [/blah] tag.

[NNO-Stephen]

yet annother reason to wait for revision 2... or at least next year with 3Ghz models

(just trying to make myself feel better about not being able to get one)

[MoparShaha]

I'm going to order a 1.8 Ghz machine, and it doesn't really bother me that I might not be able to upgrade it. Even as it gets older, I don't think its going to get slow quickly. I've lived with my 400 Mhz iMac for over 4 years now, I can deal with my G5 become obsolete as well. Anyways, these puppies haven't even shipped yet, and we're talking about putting in upgrades.......sheesh!

I do, however, feel this is negative because it will affect aftermarket upgrade vendors if a work-around can't be found. It would be a shame to put these companies out of business, as the PowerMac is their bread and butter in terms of selling upgrades for macs. I don't see how they could survive off the more-or-less non-upgradeable consumer lines.

Also, I thought I heard Steve say the fans were controlled by OS X itself. Couldn't a patch just be made to change the fan control?

[Sun Baked]

Don't know, it was almost sounding like they were including XServe style fan monitoring in the G5 Tower, along with the CPUs themselves being monitored for temperature (and will throttle back or sleep if too hot).

[JW Pepper]

I am sure this is true.

[ThorPrime]

Originally posted by MoparShaha
I'm going to order a 1.8 Ghz machine, and it doesn't really bother me that I might not be able to upgrade it. Even as it gets older, I don't think its going to get slow quickly. I've lived with my 400 Mhz iMac for over 4 years now, I can deal with my G5 become obsolete as well. Anyways, these puppies haven't even shipped yet, and we're talking about putting in upgrades.......sheesh!
Wow, I completely Dido. Talk about taking the words out of my mouth, I've also been using my 400mhz iMac and am going to get a 1.8 this fall.
I've lived without internal Modifications besides Ram for a while now. At least the G5 can take a second internal Hard Drive, a new Graphics Card and PCI cards.

I just hope the apple puts in a discount on 10.3 seeing as it is going to be shipping after the G5's.

[Freg3000]

I don't understand. This rumor is about upgrading processors; not easily changed stuff like ram or hard drives. So it is really surprising that upgrading the processor of a totally new chip is going to be hard? Doesn't sound like that bad of news to me. But then again, I am an optimist. :)

[Sol]

Personally I would never upgrade the CPU of my Mac as there would surelly be another Mac at a similar price to the upgrade that would do a better job of improving overall speed.

Having said that, I wonder if the PCI-X PowerMacs would be better suited for upgrading. I remember some beige Macs were upgradable with a CPU card on a PCI card; imagine how a faster G5 on top-speed PCI-X slot would compare with that!

[jusvistin]

I'm gonna bet that in a few years, you won't NEED to upgrade your CPU, because Apple will be offering additional CPU boxes that support seamless clustering.

Buy one head unit, then just keep adding low cost boxes to improve your throughput.

One can only hope.


Jusvisting

[GregGomer]

My first thougt was no way, cause what do you do when you need service and have to replace a processor or mother board. Do the local repair shops have to become trained in tunig fans and motherboards, sounds kind of crazy to me. Even worse, right now all Portable repairs get shipped off to Apple. What if they have to ship off all G5 repairs too.

Then I remembered, no too long ago, Apple started sending both a Motherboard and processor whenever they had to do a repair. That way the tech could check and make sure it wasn't both causing issues. So I guess for service they could ship a full tuned Motherboard and Processor set. Kind of crazy way to go about things. But hey, what do you do?

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by NNO-Stephen
yet annother reason to wait for revision 2... or at least next year with 3Ghz models

(just trying to make myself feel better about not being able to get one)

What makes you think it will get better with subsequent revisions? It might actually get worse, as far as mating of processor to the system. This 'matching' maybe the price that is paid for a fast but quiet system.

[mstur]

I still have a lot of upgraded 7x00 Macs around, which all got G3 processor cards from Newertech or Sonnet very soon after I bought them. At this time the jump from a 604 to a G3 really was a great improvement in speed and performance. The last upgrade I bought was a 500 MHz G4 ZIF module for my Tupperware G3 Powermac. Unimpressive....

I am a great fan of the G4 cube, I own four of them, but until today I never considered getting one of the higher clocked G4 cards. I dont need more speed in my Cube !!

I do not even need a G5 right now, I rather ordered one of the single CPU 1.25 GHz G4 Powermacs yesterday. So much value for the money, and so many drive bays !!!!

So, even as a heavy buyer of upgrade cards in the past I feel that the lack of possible upgrades in the G5 is no problem. I miss the drive bays much more..

[alset]

NewerTech would do it, but they fell under a company that can't find it's butt with both hands.

Dan

[ZildjianKX]

My one complaint I've always had about Apple aside from prices and weak warranties is that they make it very hard to upgrade their computers... somethings never change.

[barkmonster]

Having said that, I wonder if the PCI-X PowerMacs would be better suited for upgrading. I remember some beige Macs were upgradable with a CPU card on a PCI card; imagine how a faster G5 on top-speed PCI-X slot would compare with that!

The G5 has a front side bus exactly 1 half of the processor speed.

PCI-X offers 2.1Gb/s of bandwidth, A 3Ghz G5 could theoretically use 12Gb/s of bandwidth. It would be pointless.

[nagromme]

If this is true, then maybe an upgrade maker could just include their own temperature sensor of some kind that bypasses what the CPU would otherwise misleadingly report to the other chips.

[bigjohn]

A friend was amongst the crew working the recent WWDC satellite-cast and while the mics were "supposed" to be off, he overheard Jobs saying, "we'll have the dual-3 ghz out in december".

File it away.

[wheezl]

this is a pile of BS cooling is just plain not that hard. you may need bigger fans, a better heat sink, or whatever. they already have better airflow than most machines, you just need more air moving, more surface area or maybe fluid. it's possible that upgrades may be a touch harder for joe mac user to install, which would be a shame. but cooling ain't rocket science folks. (well until it becomes rocket science :) )

[Frohickey]

My best friend's cousin's brother's step-father's ex-wife said that Jobs' said 3GHz will be out in December. :p

[Frohickey]

Sure, maybe you can just aim one of those air blowers, like the kind they use to dry the carpets after they have just done a deep shampoo cleaning on them, at a newly upgraded G5 PowerMac.

WHAT???!!! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!! I CAN'T TURN IT OFF, OR MY COMPUTER WILL CRASH. NO, YOU CAN'T TURN IT OFF. I DON'T CARE IF THE CAT IS GOING BALD! CAN'T YOU SEE THAT I'M PLAYING QUAKE!

:D

[pianojoe]

Originally posted by Sol
Personally I would never upgrade the CPU of my Mac as there would surelly be another Mac at a similar price to the upgrade that would do a better job of improving overall speed.

Having said that, I wonder if the PCI-X PowerMacs would be better suited for upgrading. I remember some beige Macs were upgradable with a CPU card on a PCI card; imagine how a faster G5 on top-speed PCI-X slot would compare with that!

I've bothered with upgrading serveral old Macs, a 7100 to a 333MHz G3 (a crazy thing to do, because the bus stayed at 33MHz of course), a 7200 to a 400 MHz G3, a beige 233 G3 to a 400 MHz G3...

After all, I'd say upgrading wasn't worth the effort and the money. I learned that heavy processor load relies on the fact that all system components interact smoothly. Remember how ProTools requires you to use only certified graphics cards? There's a reason for it!

So, you're absolutely right! If you need more buzz, get a new machine or a used one that's more powerful, and put your old box on Ebay. The difference in money will not that big, you get a warranty, and you'll be void of some compatibility issues.

The only reason for a proc upgrade would be, you need to keep some legacy hardware like serial devices, SCSI harddisks etc. but this is stone age for many users anyway.

[MikeH]

What a load of bull.

Having an adjustable fan system is no big deal. All it requires are temperature sensors placed in strategic places around the case/motherboard and a speed controller unit for the fans.

PC's have had all this available for years and your average PC overclocking store will sell you slow speed 'silent' fans and speed controlers which will increase the speed of the fans when a certain temperature is reached, all for about $50. They'll even sell you a water cooling system if you want it.

[wheezl]

and as far as upgrades being useless, while I would of course rather have a new machine.. putting a G4/500 (overclocked to 600) in my B&W box was the best thing ever... for $250 the machine became useable. the $250 plus the $300 I would have received on ebay for the B&W G3 would not have given me a nice new G4 box that I wanted. Would I rather have one? sure. but upgrades are often cost effective.

Also if you think of SCSI as stone age you have never had to use a real computer ;)

given my choice i think I'd still go with fiber channel though :)

[bigjohn]

Originally posted by Frohickey
My best friend's cousin's brother's step-father's ex-wife said that Jobs' said 3GHz will be out in December. :p

I know her, she has good info.

Whatever, by December no one will ever remember this as being a thread.

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by Frohickey
My best friend's cousin's brother's step-father's ex-wife said that Jobs' said 3GHz will be out in December. :p

Was she drunk at the time? It always seems that they are when rumors/jokes come out like this... ;) :p :D

[hvfsl]

Originally posted by Sol

Having said that, I wonder if the PCI-X PowerMacs would be better suited for upgrading. I remember some beige Macs were upgradable with a CPU card on a PCI card; imagine how a faster G5 on top-speed PCI-X slot would compare with that!

I don't think the PCI-X bus is as fast as the PPC970's at 1Ghz, although I do know PCI-X is faster than AGP 8x, so it would be better to get PCI-X graphics cards in future. I think ATI is bringing one out soon. PCI-X is meant to replace both PCI and AGP, maybe Apple will get rid of AGP in rev 2.

Someone could now do a AMD chip on a PCI-X card so that we can have a PC and Mac in one, like the old performa 630. If the card had a AMD 3000XP on it, then it should be as fast as a 3000XP PC.

[Dont Hurt Me]

a powermac that you cant upgrade? Lets hope not.

[fixyourthinking]

Originally posted by Sol
Personally I would never upgrade the CPU of my Mac as there would surelly be another Mac at a similar price to the upgrade that would do a better job of improving overall speed!


But that's you of course. A lot of machines are a MUCH better value if you upgrade them. Some machines that had unique enclosures or unique features can remain useable and valueable with upgrades. (IE Cube, Pismo PowerBook, 20th Anniversary Mac, the G3 All In One)


Now upgrading a 6100 7100 8100 2 years ago was an ok idea, but kinda "gumpish" because of the lack of new Nubus cards.


I was really happy to hear of the 1 GHz ZIF G4's from Sonnet for my AIO. iMacs almost fall into this category. Certainly the original 233's do as they have infrared for Palm Sync on them and have tray loading drives that can be replaced with combo or DVD-R/CDRW drives.

[Arcady]

I'm more interested in seeing how the upgrade companies deal with the G5 on older systems, if they even can. It took them ages to get a G4 upgrade out for Macs like the beige and blue G3's, and at least those things had bus speeds fairly close to the "real" G4 systems. Would a G5 on a 133-167mhz bus even be worth the effort? I was seriously considering putting a 1.4ghz G4 in my Quicksilver before the G5's were announced, but at $600-700, that option makes no sense now. Selling the box and buying a low-end G5 comes out to just about the same amount. And I get audio in, the cool optical connections, firewire 800, a better graphics card, and more as a bonus. The upgrade companies are really going to have to scramble to make some faster upgrades, or lower their prices by around 50%, to stay in business.

[fixyourthinking]

Originally posted by GregGomer
My first thougt was no way, cause what do you do when you need service and have to replace a processor or mother board. Do the local repair shops have to become trained in tunig fans and motherboards, sounds kind of crazy to me. Even worse, right now all Portable repairs get shipped off to Apple. What if they have to ship off all G5 repairs too.

Then I remembered, no too long ago, Apple started sending both a Motherboard and processor whenever they had to do a repair. That way the tech could check and make sure it wasn't both causing issues. So I guess for service they could ship a full tuned Motherboard and Processor set. Kind of crazy way to go about things. But hey, what do you do?

From what I know there will be an extensive series of tests a tech will do. They will be instructed to remove ALL storage components, = optical drive, memory, HD - test them and send the unit in advance exchange if the unit is bad. A replacement would come 2 day Airborne as soon as the tech scanned the Airbill for the exchange. The tech will then replace the storage components in the "new/replacement" unit - some iMac G4 repairs are done this way, as are Alumibooks now.

[ozubahn]

I think this is nonsense. The G5 may not be upgradeable, but it isn't because of the cooling. As someone said earlier, it just isn't that hard. The only things that might need to be calibrated are the temperature sensors in the case, and that's neither difficult nor particularly important. The processor, fans, and board do not need to be tuned as a unit. That's why people invented digital processing and feedback control.

[Sayer]

If you want to hot rod your rig stop whining about what Apple is doing with its own hardware designs (the nerve of Apple designing an integrated hardware system!) and get an AMD box and put RedHat on it and shut up already.

Most of you seem to get all woozy running GIMP and other crap on OS X with X11, so it won't be any different running Linux.

Plus the hardware of the G5 finally meets up with the Wintel world in specs and performance.

But if that's not good enough you can get a Wintel box with as many expansion bays as you think you need in any color you want and throw in any hardware you an afford.

If its so damn bad being a Mac user get something else and stop whining about what Apple does with its own OS and hardware. Apple is copying XP more and more with each new release of OS X, X11 does the same things on Linux and the hardware is now spec'd to match Wintel.

The only difference is the logo on the outside of the box and the price at this point.

[Centris 650]

I have to say that this rumor has caused me to pause in my purchase. I was waiting (though I didn't want to wait) for the RevB. I'll continue to watch this rumor.

[kansast]

Wasn't there a story floating around just before the WWDC that IBM was reported as saying they expected much faster CPUs by the end of the year ?
At the time we didn't know if they meant the not as of yet announced G5s or something after the soon to be announced G5s

At any rate, hoping to get one of the new 1.8Ghz models at work once they start shipping.

[Hattig]

Originally posted by hvfsl
I don't think the PCI-X bus is as fast as the PPC970's at 1Ghz, although I do know PCI-X is faster than AGP 8x, so it would be better to get PCI-X graphics cards in future. I think ATI is bringing one out soon. PCI-X is meant to replace both PCI and AGP, maybe Apple will get rid of AGP in rev 2.

How many frickin' times does it have to be explained?

PCI-X is not PCI Express.

PCI-X in the new PowerMacs has one slot with 1GB/s of bandwidth, and 2 slots sharing 800MB/s of bandwidth. The chip used is the AMD 8131 dual PCI-X Hypertransport tunnel.

AGP8x is 2GB/s of bandwidth.

PCI-Express x16 is what you were thinking of regarding faster than AGP8x, as it runs at 4GB/s (or 8GB/s, I forget which). It will be appearing on motherboards late this year/early next year.

[Mr. Anderson]

I got the Rev A. version of the G4 (450 MHz) and I went to look at upgrading to a dual cpu card but the machine isn't capable of handling it. So, this doesn't surprise me at all.

It really won't change my plans on purchasing a dual 2.0 GHz G5 either. I've had the G4 for almost 4 years, it did its job and now its time for a new machine.

D :D

[jayscheuerle]

Apple's making a computer with limited upgradeability?

Alert the presses! :eek:

[babydoc]

kind of make you wonder about the veracity of the cool running G5 rumors. Perhaps this chip isn't as ready to go portable as some have reported.

bd

[fixyourthinking]

Originally posted by Centris 650
I have to say that this rumor has caused me to pause in my purchase. I was waiting (though I didn't want to wait) for the RevB. I'll continue to watch this rumor.

First, it's not a rumor. It's pretty much a fact. But this unit has nothing unique to it. If you want to upgrade, buy another machine. By the time you sold the 1st Gen G5 and paid the difference for the new one - you'd be VERY close to the upgrade cost.

The most ridiculous thing I experience when someone upgrades a machine is that they don't upgrade on the whole component level. When upgrading, if you also don't upgrade the hard drive and the memory, you are making a mistake. By the time you pay for all of that, you have a new machine (after a little eBaying of course)

For certain machines (as I posted earlier) upgrades make a lot of sense. (Cube, Pismo, iMac, AIO) - I'll even add one, the Mac TV, it can be upgraded to a PowerPC.

Most upgrade PCI/Nubus cards and high end software are incompatible with upgrades anyway, so what's the point?

These are great machines (G5) - there should be no hesitation in your purchase. However, I would wait for the second generation and then buy out of the middle (which is usually the 1st generation's high end) - not only do you save money but you get the bugs worked out. And by that time you'll have an optimized OS.

[Steamboatwillie]

Seems bogus to me. On my PC (Don't kill me I have a Mac too) I have a $29.00 fan on my cpu that came with a sensor. When the CPU temp rises so does the RMP of the fan, ditto once it cools down. Works perfectly. I don't buy it for a second that "The Fastest Computer in the World" with all it's fancy whiz bang features can't deal with temp swings in the processor. I refuse to accept that all of Apple's excellent engineering dropped the ball on something so trivial as a temp sensor.

If indeed this is the case, which I really really doubt, not to worry. I know where you can get $29.00 fans that will do the trick!

[rog]

I say who cares? Now that it's become so easy to sell old macs on ebay for very high prices, that is a much more sensical upgrade strategy.

[svenjob]

..that I see with upgrading the G5's is the front-side bus (FSB). In x86 PC's, each class of processors (Pentium4, AthlonXP, ...) all have the same speed FSB (400MHz, 533MHz, 800Mhz) for a number of different processor speeds. In the case of the G5, each processor has a different speed FSB. This is a problem. Motherboards are rated to support a certain maximum speed FSB. You cannot run an 800MHz FSB Pentium4 on the 533MHz motherboards. Some, however, are able to be overclocked to support the new FSB. For instance, eventhough Intel rated all of its 533MHz FSB motherboards to run at 533MHz, some of them can, in fact, run at 800MHz. Most of then will run at 600 or something, but a few can do 800. I'm sure Apple is doing the same with it's motherboards. It's called binning. They "bin" the motherboards according to how fast they can clock the FSB. The 1.6GHz motherboards (with an 800MHz FBS) will be the ones that can only do 800MHz. The 1.8GHz can pull 900 and so on. So, if you get a 1.6GHz G5, it will come with a motherboard that is rated to do 800MHz. It could possibly do 900Mhz (that's only a 12.5% speed bump) rather stable, but it's not likely to do 1Ghz or else Apple would have binned that for the 2GHz processors or at least the 1.8GHz ones. Anyways, I think Apple is in a bit of a pickle by having such a varying array of FSB speeds. Just my two cents.

[dhambric]

As a mac user since 1986 I find it disappointing that an increase in speed would be met by such skeptisism. Before the unit is even available people are critical of an upgrade path. From an individual who paid $3500 for a 8 MHZ SE I believe the new G5 is an extraordinay bargin.

[Upright Joe]

Ok, if companies like Sonnet can figure out how to attach a zif socket to the cache slot on an old performa allowing you to run a G3/G4 processor, I'm sure they can figure out a silly little cooling issue :)

Also, upgrading a mac can be very economically sound in a lot of cases. About a year ago, I upgraded my 300MHz G3 to a 550MHz G4. It cost me a little over $200 from OWC and it has extended the life of my mac long enough for me to wait out the G5. Without the upgrade, I'd be dead in the water on my current recording project. The G3 300 just couldn't keep up with some of my newer software and plugins. With the G4, my old B&W is hanging in just fine.

[sedarby]

Originally posted by Sayer
If you want to hot rod your rig stop whining about what Apple is doing with its own hardware designs (the nerve of Apple designing an integrated hardware system!) and get an AMD box and put RedHat on it and shut up already.

Most of you seem to get all woozy running GIMP and other crap on OS X with X11, so it won't be any different running Linux.

Plus the hardware of the G5 finally meets up with the Wintel world in specs and performance.

But if that's not good enough you can get a Wintel box with as many expansion bays as you think you need in any color you want and throw in any hardware you an afford.

If its so damn bad being a Mac user get something else and stop whining about what Apple does with its own OS and hardware. Apple is copying XP more and more with each new release of OS X, X11 does the same things on Linux and the hardware is now spec'd to match Wintel.

The only difference is the logo on the outside of the box and the price at this point.

How has Apple copied XP? What feature of XP has been put in OS X?

[spiff]

the heat problem to me seems not very plausible: i bet you won't put a 2.5 Ghz 970 upgrade into a 2 Ghz G5. because the performance wouldn't be that much better. you'd rather put a 3ghz 980 in it, and that chip (as well as a revised 970) will use 90nm techn. so it will run cooler at higher speeds. you won't need all those fans for an upgrade.

[weez75]

Upgrading a computer is very much like hotrodding a car. When a new vehicle arrives it rarely is fully understood by the aftermarket parts companies and so upgrading seems tough. Over time people gain a better understanding of what can and cannot be done. Given that the upgrade market always has been worth some effort for companies I would bet that someone will figure out how to overcome these calibration and cooling issues to successfully build some form of upgrade. Or perhaps this will open the door for Motorola to upgrade their capbilities and provide processors to upgrade companies.

And I don't believe that Apple swipes XP functionality. I believe that both Microsoft and Apple have hired some smart people that closely pay attention to trends in the market and problems in modern operating systems. More often than not, Apple gets there first.

[jamilecrire]

Originally posted by ZildjianKX
My one complaint I've always had about Apple aside from prices and weak warranties is that they make it very hard to upgrade their computers... somethings never change.

What's the point of upgrading? As time goes on the price of computers get cheaper and cheaper. You have inflation and competition to thank for that.

My Apple //e cost around $2500 in 1983. In todays dollars that is around $10,000 to $12,000. As salarys go up and inflation stays relatively low you can guarantee that in 3-5 years you'll be able to buy a computer that is 2-4x as fast and 25% to 50% less expensive.

Just buy what you want and buy again later. There is no need to upgrade. I've got a QS 733 and a iBook 900 and have no desire to get a new system until the G5 is in a Powerbook. If it takes a year or two that's fine with me. If the G5 powerbook comes out tomorrow I'll still wait a year or two at least.

I'm a software engineer and outside of testing on the G5 platform it's really not necessary. My company is in the very beginning stages of porting our apps to the Mac platform and as such we are in no hurry to chase the latest and greatest. Also the only way it seems to affect programmers are the default size of variables and assembly routines (not as much as other platforms though). I guess I'll just wait and see.

[JJTiger1]

A long time ago, I upgraded my 6500 to G3. Tuesday, I retired the 6500, until I get off my dead a$$ and connect an Apple mini-monitor that is in storage.
-
Tuesday, I took away the 6500's 17-inch monitor and plugged it into a new Radeon 7000 For Mac card that I bought & installed into the QuickSilver 733. Now I have extended desktop across two 17-inch monitors.

The OEM nVidia card allows video mirroring on two monitors, not extended desktop. It allows a third (and mirrored fourth?) monitor for extended desktop when used with the Radeon 7000.
-
Other upgrades that I've done to the QS-733: Ram @ 640; dual internal hard drives; internal Zip-250.
-
Do I want a G5? You bet...
... But I haven't used up this G4 QS-733.
... Maybe I'll get a last rev G5 when the G6 is in the showroom.
-
JJ

[Lanbrown]

Originally posted by hvfsl
I don't think the PCI-X bus is as fast as the PPC970's at 1Ghz, although I do know PCI-X is faster than AGP 8x, so it would be better to get PCI-X graphics cards in future. I think ATI is bringing one out soon. PCI-X is meant to replace both PCI and AGP, maybe Apple will get rid of AGP in rev 2.

Someone could now do a AMD chip on a PCI-X card so that we can have a PC and Mac in one, like the old performa 630. If the card had a AMD 3000XP on it, then it should be as fast as a 3000XP PC.

Actually PCI-X was a temporary fix until Infiniband is widely adopted and still needs to be released. There are other 3G I/O specs as well, but Infiniband seems to be the dominate one with all the major players involved.

Companies have yet to release commercial products based upon it. Infiniband offers far better throughput then PCI-X as well as better use of resources. It is a switched I/O rather then a shared like ISA/PCI/PCI-X is. Eventually AGP will be replaced as well, quite possible Infinband. It is possible to have the graphics, CPU interconnect, storage, network, Firewire, USB, etc. all on one bus. Infiniband can go up to 30Gb/s.

2004/2005 should bring it into the datacenter. How soon it gets adopted elsewhere remains to be seen. Most companies do not offer PCI-X cards, so they are probably waiting to see what I/O wins and go with that. PCI-X won't be it.

[ryan]

Originally posted by adzoox
First, it's not a rumor. It's pretty much a fact.
Fact?!?! So you can then tell us how it was to upgrade your G5? Please share.

[ryan]

Originally posted by sedarby
How has Apple copied XP? What feature of XP has been put in OS X?
Fast user switching is the only thing I can think of… oh, and that little gear looking icon/button that brings up contextual info on the item you've selected.

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by Macrumors
In perhaps what should be taken in the strictest definition of a rumor, one Xlr8yourmac.com post (http://bbs.xlr8yourmac.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/000024.html) indicates that one Apple engineer suggested that the PowerMac G5's may be difficult to upgrade (Processors) due to cooling/venting requirements:


So it might be an authorized service upgrade including a ROM upgrade. But has Apple EVER done company approved upgrades? Or has this always been a third party thing anyway?

I find that Apple has trained its users to mostly avoid upgrading a box but to buy a second box. It is only because of the expendable wintel mothernoard market that there is a culture of upgrade anyway.

While upgrading on Macs is readily available I hazard to guess the fraction of the market using them is quite small indeed.

Rocketman

[illumin8]

I posted this on another thread but it seemed relevant. You see, the fans are variable speed, temperature controlled by the computer itself. I don't think there will be problems because as the temperature of components rise, the system automatically compensates by increasing fan speed.

Read:
Originally posted by ffakr
Some had issues where the fans were not behaving as they should (spinning up for no reason...)
Originally posted by illumin8
I think this is due to the way they are controlling the fans to keep noise levels down. I work on Sun servers, and on our higher end servers, this is exactly what we do.

Basically, it works like this:

1. When the box is first powered on, the fans come on at maximum speed to ensure that nothing will overheat.

2. Once the OS is loaded, it starts an "environment monitoring daemon" that monitors temperatures of key components and adjusts the fan speed appropriately. (this is very scary the first time it happens, because it sounds like the fans just shut off, but actually they are just slowing down to a better level)

3. If the environment daemon crashes or stops running for some reason, the fans all spin back up to maximum speed just to make sure that nothing overheats. This is a failsafe method to make sure nothing will burn up.

I'm 99% sure this is how Apple is managing the heat on these boxes while making sure that everything stays quiet.

Another thing to consider with this is that variable speed fans tend to wear out a lot quicker than fixed speed fans because the speed is always changing. I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND purchasing Applecare if you buy one of these G5s because with 9 fans I'm sure you'll have at least 1 or 2 fan failures by the time you've had the box for 3 years or so. Hopefully the environment monitoring daemon will notify you of a fan failure and shut down the box if necessary. Most likely, the other fans will spin up to full speed if a failure occurs and keep the box running cool.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by sedarby
How has Apple copied XP? What feature of XP has been put in OS X?

Though limited with my experience in Windows, the new Finder certainly seems more XP like...

[wildmac]

First of all, it's a stinking rumour.....

Second, the rumor said it would be difficult, not impossible.....

Third, for all you "blessed be the Rev B" folks, I will gladly sell you my DualG5 2ghz next year when the DualG5 3ghz is out. That way, I'll have a full years use and benefit, while you work on a slower older computer in the meatime.

Finally, for all of you whose current hardware is old and slow enough to justify your purchase of these "scary" new systems, just the the AppleCare, and enjoy the benefits of being far more productive that you were before.

PS, for the dude with the drunken sister sleeping on the back of Job's Gulfstream, did he say 'which" December?... It won't be this December. Get real. But December next year?... Jobs said on stage for all of us to hear that it would be so.

[iShater]

I wouldn't put it past Apple to do something like this. Need to make your system faster? buy another system! Sounds like a good way to keep people buying new Macs rather than upgrade their old ones.

[johnpaul191]

in the G5 info out now it says that there are 9 fans divided into the 4 temperature zones.... so only the processor zone would really be an issue.... which i think is 4 fans? the fans or zones (not sure how specific they are) all have speed controls on them to keep the machine cool, yet as quiet as possible. i would assume the speed is set by temp sensors and not some preset..... a machine in a 40F room needs less cooling than one in Las Vegas during the summer with no AC. The same way your car is more likely to overheat in the summer than the dead of winter.... why run the same cooling for all enviroments? will all the fan advancements that the computer industry in general has, and Apple has used in previous machines (laptops), why would they risk such a mess. Isn't it also possible that a G5 chip that's out in a year or two would be faster (to justify an upgrade) and not run that much hotter?

also, just for the sake of cost and whatnot, i would think the settings (if this is AT ALL true) are just firmware. imagine if Apple found out in 6 months that they throttled the settings a little too high or low.... instead of a full scale motherboard recall they could slip a fix into a software update.

[jayscheuerle]

Just additional moving parts to break down...:(

The original iMac was fanless. Wasn't the Cube as well?

[Sedulous]

I very much doubt each system has to be tuned specifically for the processor. It is more likely that the computerized controller offers better flexibility. Think of it like "climate control" in that you designate an upper/lower temp and that is where the system keeps it.

[acj]

I doubt thermal problems are really the issue. It's usually that the motherboard won't handle a faster CPU. A CPU upgrade could always include new, faster fans or whatever. I don't think Apple really likes the idea of people upgrading its computers. It's a weakness, but it means less tech support and fewer problems for them.

It would be nice if they were easilly upgradable, though. For example, I just built a PC with a planned upgrade path:

It has have a gig of 400MHZ DDR ram. In a year or whenever, I'll double that. Adding a second stick suddenly makes it dual channel DDR, gaining me some speed (the computer is a shuttle SB62G)

It has a 2.4GHz P4 W/800MHz FSB. If I really want more speed, when the costs come down I can boost that to 3.2 or more. Probably not more though. 3.2 is suposedly intels last P4 before the Prescott.

It has one SATA hard drive. I'll add another and RAID them for more storage and performance.

[acj]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Just additional moving parts to break down...:(

The original iMac was fanless. Wasn't the Cube as well?

True but they are probably use fluid drive bearings, which are quiter and last much longer than ball and sleeve bearings. Around 10 years continuous use. Also with 9, there must be some redundancy. Aren't there 4 in the CPU section on the dualies?

[ewinemiller]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Just additional moving parts to break down...:(

The original iMac was fanless. Wasn't the Cube as well?

I had one of the original iMacs, it had a fan, relatively quiet, but still a fan. I think they went fanless a little later down the line, but not sure when.

9 fans seems a little excessive for me, but if it's as quiet as they say it would certainly be a big step up from the 4 fans(case, cpu, ps, and superdrive) in my quicksilver that make it sound like a dustbuster.

[sedarby]

Originally posted by ryan
Fast user switching is the only thing I can think of… oh, and that little gear looking icon/button that brings up contextual info on the item you've selected.
What features of OS X has XP borrowed?

[Rick65000]

There are a lot of cooling options. Liquid cooling kits might be hard to install but its not impossible.

http://koolance.com/products/product.html?code=HDC1-A01

http://www.heatsinkstore.com/liquidcooling.html


http://www.mitron.com.tw/product_list.asp?Cat=47&Subcat=236

Someone is always out there experimenting.

http://larkin.nuclearwinter.com/cool/

http://kmcsonline.com/casemod/lcc/

http://www.hexus.net/review.php?review=307

And regulating the system is just an additional chip or patch away. One day there wasn't Qcad version that worked on x11 the next day there was.

http://www.qcad.org/index.php3?body=download#packages

O.k. different area, but same concept.

All I'm saying is people have a way of working around these kinds of problems.

[anonymous161]

I thought that with the 970, the FSB pretty much had to be half the speed of the cpu. So to upgrade to a new processor you would have to upgrade the mobo anyway to see any benefit. To me it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Besides, I haven't ever upgraded any of my processors and as clustering becomes more feasible, you can just retire the old box to your personal closet "render farm"

[g3ski]

add some big fans in that thermal zone and then the sensors will sense a cold front from the north and never worry.

IT CAN BE DONE

IT WILL BE DONE

IT PROBABLY ALREADY HAS BEEN DONE

[mrbill]

The machines aren't even *out* yet, and people are already complaining about their upgradability?

Keep in mind that Apple has *never* officially designed a G3/G4 machine to have upgradeable CPUs, that I know of.
Everything's just been "what the aftermarket can come up with".

[Abstract]

I don't think it makes much sense to me. If you put a cooling system that can cool a dual 2.0GHz system, surely it will be able to cool the 1.6GHz system with no problems. It may be a bit over-effective, but it'll also do the job perfectly. I just don't see why it'll make a difference. If they just put a cooling system that can cool a dual 3.0GHz system, THAT should cool the dual 2.0GHz systems fine as well.

[bretm]

In recent years, upgrading has become increasingly "not worth it." As we all know, it's not just the cpu. It's interfaces, motherboards, caches, etc. It's all moving so fast that 2 years is about it.

For example right now upgrading BW G3s with G4s costs about half as much as the G4 new, and will underperform a new one. Better to not upgrade at all, or if it's really needed that badly for work / business, then the minor cost of getting a full new computer is a better decision. Plus you can sell the old one to further close the gap in price.

So, to this rumor I say "who cares?" Does anybody plan on upgrading their G4 to a G5? Nope. You either won't be able to, or it wouldn't be worth it.

[Reed Black]

Straight GANGSTA!!! Check these out! I know we've already seen the G5 but I think these pictures really give us a look at the size etc. GANGSTA!!

[Reed Black]

Can anyone tell me how to post all at once? Anyway, here is another shot

[Reed Black]

more shots

[Reed Black]

more

[Reed Black]

even more

[Reed Black]

last one. I know should've provided the link... but just thought about it. Follow the link on the pictures. Anyway...

[Rick65000]

You know what would look cool is a clear cover and some DISCO FLASHING STRING LIGHTS inside the case.

[Reed Black]

sorry, couldnt resist. One more...here.

[Reed Black]

I'm on a role...

[Dont Hurt Me]

Reed Black thank you for the pictures.

[Reed Black]

...

[Dont Hurt Me]

how did you get a hold of one and did it come with a regular keyboard from the emac? got any photo's of a 1.6???

[Reed Black]

Stole one from the display at WWDC. Straight GANGSTA!!! Just took it. Put on an apple employee uniform and walked right out.

[Reed Black]

Just kidding. I found these pictures online at www.99mac.com I'm not in any of the pictures.

[Dont Hurt Me]

maybe thats a good thing.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Just additional moving parts to break down...:(

The original iMac was fanless. Wasn't the Cube as well?

The Cube was fanless. The Bondi and Rainbow iMacs had a fan (233, 266, and 333 MHz) but the Kihei iMacs after that (all other G3s) were fanless.

Originally posted by anonymous161
I thought that with the 970, the FSB pretty much had to be half the speed of the cpu. So to upgrade to a new processor you would have to upgrade the mobo anyway to see any benefit. To me it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Besides, I haven't ever upgraded any of my processors and as clustering becomes more feasible, you can just retire the old box to your personal closet "render farm"

One thing I remember from taking PC Repair my junior year of high school is that at least with a PC motherboard, you don't actually clock the processor, you clock the bus speed and the multiplier. With the G5, the multiplier is probably stuck at 2x. So you couldn't upgrade the processor without overclocking the bus to the failure point.

[BeigeUser]

Originally posted by Hattig
How many frickin' times does it have to be explained?

PCI-X is not PCI Express.

PCI-X in the new PowerMacs has one slot with 1GB/s of bandwidth, and 2 slots sharing 800MB/s of bandwidth. The chip used is the AMD 8131 dual PCI-X Hypertransport tunnel.

AGP8x is 2GB/s of bandwidth.

PCI-Express x16 is what you were thinking of regarding faster than AGP8x, as it runs at 4GB/s (or 8GB/s, I forget which). It will be appearing on motherboards late this year/early next year.

You are definitely correct regarding the PCI-X that's currently used in the G5's. However, it seems that the newest PCI-X (revision 2.0) is indeed faster than AGP 8x. It goes up to 4.3GB/s.

hvfsl's speculation that the next PowerMac G5 revision might eliminate AGP 8x in place of PCI-X is still possible.

[BeigeUser]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I vaguely remember Steve Jobs (during the keynote) saying that the fans were controlled by firmware. Am I remembering correctly? If that's the case, maybe the upgrade makers can get away with a firmware patch.

[Sun Baked]

The FSB is not clocked at half the speed of the processor.

It's a DDR bus physically clocked at 1/4 the processor speed.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by BeigeUser
Correct me if I'm wrong but I vaguely remember Steve Jobs (during the keynote) saying that the fans were controlled by firmware. Am I remembering correctly? If that's the case, maybe the upgrade makers can get away with a firmware patch.

YEAH! Let's hear it for voiding the warranty!!!!

[mislabeledstar]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Though limited with my experience in Windows, the new Finder certainly seems more XP like...

or from what i've seen, itunes

[daveg5]

the words powermac and upgradeable cpu and video upgrades go together even apple made a few.
7300-9300 g3,g4s.
this is what made then pro machines while imacs emacs and such are consumer machine.
i upgraded my bw g3 300 to a 550 oc @600 g4 and it made a world of diff esp in osx took out the cdrom put in a combo drive. and with the exception of video (agp ) it benches as faster the last years 800 emac/imac (were $999+back then)
for 250+89. the smaller pipe 4stages and larger 1MB L2 cache really helped for 1/3 the price of new.
i think apple is simply warning the upgrade companies to make sure they address the cooling problem as apple will not be liable for problems cost by them.
there is no way apple can sell a $3000 desktop that can not be upgraded by cpu. if so the pc's can used this in there advertisement.
all they need is to add new fans and sensors for additional cost.
i hope to have my G5 by march and to upgrade it in 2 years or whenever the speed doubles and to get a new mac evety 4 years but i am keeping my bw workhorse.
if you absolutely cant upgrade the cpu then maybe ill just get a left over g4 cheap since i really dont need the speed but it would be nice.

[Pete_Hoover]

I say the new Panther finder looks more start menu-ish than than the Jaguar finder. Apple copied the star menu. Kind of.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Pete_Hoover
I say the new Panther finder looks more start menu-ish than than the Jaguar finder. Apple copied the star menu. Kind of.

No, they copied the iTunes playlist list and the iPhoto album list :)

Originally posted by daveg5
the words powermac and upgradeable cpu and video upgrades go together even apple made a few.
7300-9300 g3,g4s.
this is what made then pro machines while imacs emacs and such are consumer machine.


Apple hasn't made processor upgrades until 1994, 1995 or so. And there was no Power Mac 9300.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
The FSB is not clocked at half the speed of the processor.

It's a DDR bus physically clocked at 1/4 the processor speed.

1/4 the processor speed... double data rate... is twice that. So, it is transferring data at half the speed of the processor.

What is your point? That the world is not round, but oval?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Frohickey
1/4 the processor speed... double data rate... is twice that. So, it is transferring data at half the speed of the processor.

What is your point? That the world is not round, but oval?

It's an important distinction when it comes to processor upgrades. At any case, the mobo is likely stuck at a the 4x multiplier.

[illumin8]

Originally posted by acj
It has have a gig of 400MHZ DDR ram. In a year or whenever, I'll double that. Adding a second stick suddenly makes it dual channel DDR, gaining me some speed (the computer is a shuttle SB62G).
Dude, why didn't you just buy 2x 512MB DDR400 sticks? It would have been cheaper and you get to take advantage of your full 800 mhz. FSB right now... :rolleyes:

I predict that when the G5 hits stores and lusers start buying them left and right, this pairing RAM sticks thing is going to be lost on most people, and since most people buy aftermarket memory and upgrade themselves, they are not going to be running in an optimal configuration.

If you don't pair your DIMMs properly, your computer is crippled and only operating half as fast as it should on some tasks.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by illumin8
Dude, why didn't you just buy 2x 512MB DDR400 sticks? It would have been cheaper and you get to take advantage of your full 800 mhz. FSB right now... :rolleyes:

I predict that when the G5 hits stores and lusers start buying them left and right, this pairing RAM sticks thing is going to be lost on most people, and since most people buy aftermarket memory and upgrade themselves, they are not going to be running in an optimal configuration.

If you don't pair your DIMMs properly, your computer is crippled and only operating half as fast as it should on some tasks.

The Apple Store only sells RAM in properly paired configurations :)

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by illumin8
I predict that when the G5 hits stores and lusers start buying them left and right, this pairing RAM sticks thing is going to be lost on most people, and since most people buy aftermarket memory and upgrade themselves, they are not going to be running in an optimal configuration.

If you don't pair your DIMMs properly, your computer is crippled and only operating half as fast as it should on some tasks.

Actually, I'm sure that there will be instructions on the proper installation of DRAM. Also, if you don't pair your DIMMs properly, you either will have no recognized DRAM, or you will not see all of the memory you thought you have installed.

So, are you saying that only the 'enlightened' computer people should be allowed to service computers for the unwashed masses? Thats a pretty elitist viewpoint. ;)

[Dave K]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Actually, I'm sure that there will be instructions on the proper installation of DRAM.

All the instructions on replacing everything that usually replaceable (ram/hd), are printed on the inside of the door. Ives gleefully pointed this out to Wired, IIRC, in their little mini-interview...

[Dave K]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle Just additional moving parts to break down...:(

Which is why all the fans are monitored and give user feedback.

Based on information posted on Ars by someone at a hardware discussion at WWDC, the G5 also idles at 2/3 peak speed under light loads. This let's them cut heat output by 60-83% and run the CPU area almost fanless. If the system starts to overheat (something they noted was only likely if you run it in an environment likely to cause it to), it also cuts back on the CPU throttle to try and cool things down and throws it into a sleep state if that fails.

This system is seriously designed around disipating the heat generated by the 970 and, depending on the tolerances and the ability to tweak the settings in the hardware, the Apple engineer is quite likely right because a faster 970 (at the same process size), will generate more heat and is almost certain to trip the overheat alarm sooner than the processor the system was geared for eventually and the slow down gearing might not be low enough to let the system cool properly.

Thus, instant sleep state.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Dave K
All the instructions on replacing everything that usually replaceable (ram/hd), are printed on the inside of the door. Ives gleefully pointed this out to Wired, IIRC, in their little mini-interview...

Nuh-uh. We were talking about the mandatory pairing of DRAM sticks. The door instructions I saw only has one DRAM with an arrow, and not specific about which slot it goes into.

[Phil Of Mac]

Oh, so now the G5 works the same way I do.

When it gets too hot, it gets drowsy and slows down a bit, and if it's still too hot it falls asleep :)

[sparks9]

Who cares? I don't.......

[3-22]

I don't think this paired ram is going to be that bad or confussing. Now keep in mind I've used PCs all my life, and this is my first switch to a Mac. (So I was on my own for hardware support) But from what I have seen it looks fairly painless. The real confusing part I find is the different specs PC3200, PC2700, etc. Then you have CL2, CL3, etc. ECC, Non-ECC, etc. I find all those details more confusing then if I need to add in matched pairs or singles.

As for upgrading the processor, it sounds like they did some real "magic" with the noise levels on these boxes. But nothing is impossible, if an upgrade is released it might just include a new fan controller firmware tweaked for the new CPU. I doubt I'll ever do this though, even with my PCs I ussually just sold old hardware and bought newer hardware.

As a side note, check out those heat sinks! Holy cow! I don't know if that is a very good sign for a G5 Powerbook.

[favpseudonym]

is this a 12" powerbook? I have one, and the al powerbook in this pic on the airport extreme homepage [http://www.apple.com/airport/hotspots.html
looks way bigger than mine, but its definitely not a 17"
if you look closely at the picture, it appears that the power, ethernet, and 56k are not where they should be-on the users left side, close to the hinge.

[ryan]

Originally posted by sedarby
What features of OS X has XP borrowed?
Fast user switching and context sensitive info button *are* features OSX has borrowed from XP.

I'm not defending XP, just trying to keep the facts straight.

[Upright Joe]

Context sensitive info button? Bah, that wasn't stolen from XP. That was stolen from Conkers Bad Fur Day :)

[Pete_Hoover]

Originally posted by favpseudonym
is this a 12" powerbook? I have one, and the al powerbook in this pic on the airport extreme homepage [http://www.apple.com/airport/hotspots.html
looks way bigger than mine, but its definitely not a 17"
if you look closely at the picture, it appears that the power, ethernet, and 56k are not where they should be-on the users left side, close to the hinge.

It looks like a 12 incher to me.

[-hh]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
It's an important distinction when it comes to processor upgrades. At any case, the mobo is likely stuck at a the 4x multiplier.

This, along with a prior post talking about "binning" motherboards (just like how CPU clock speeds are already done) is what I suspect are probably the crux of the "no upgrade" rumblings: having a motherboard that can't run higher than 800MHz will effectively prevent CPU's faster than 1.6GHz.

Unless, of course, that the mobo is indeed stuck at a 4x multiplier. Overall, I find it somewhat suprising that Apple would take the risk that comes with how this "designs themself into a corner" with a short-lived motherboard design.

So I would suspect that if its not literally adjustable like a Jumper or DIP switch bank, that the component that determines the ratio is effectively some sort of component of some sort that is designed to make the task of changing multiplier ratio's to be an easy and low-cost manufacturing change. For example, it could be a soldered resister, like what was found on the original Mac Plus model for its RAM slots.


-hh

[illumin8]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
The Apple Store only sells RAM in properly paired configurations :)
Who buys memory at the Apple store? I said aftermarket, but if you are stupid enough to pay Apple prices for your upgrade memory, it's a good thing they will only sell them to you in pairs.

[illumin8]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Actually, I'm sure that there will be instructions on the proper installation of DRAM. Also, if you don't pair your DIMMs properly, you either will have no recognized DRAM, or you will not see all of the memory you thought you have installed.

So, are you saying that only the 'enlightened' computer people should be allowed to service computers for the unwashed masses? Thats a pretty elitist viewpoint. ;)
I'm just saying it helps to understand how two DDR400 sticks can be operated in a split bank configuration in order to get 800 mhz. effective memory bandwidth.

When PC motherboards first started supporting dual RAM banks there was the same learning curve involved for most PC enthusiasts as well.

[favpseudonym]

You know- I used to think exactly the same way. I used to think that it was stupid to get Apple memory. When I bought my new 17" pb, I actually thought twice about going out and paying the 170 dollars for another 512 of kingston memory. The apple warranty says that it is not responsible for problems that are a result of improperly installed ram.
You have to remember that EVERYONE is not a power user. Many people would be better off having it installed by an apple authorized tech. Instead of screwing something up then having to dish out hundreds. On top of that-there would be no scrutiny of the installed ram if warranty issues come into play.
I actually got the computer preinstalled with a Gig. If it only came with 512, would I upgrade later- of course. Would I upgrade with Apple memory-no. But I would at least have the memory installed by an authorized tech, even though I could do a better job then him. Just so I could avoid warranty issues.

[Sol]

Fair enough with the warranty rules concerning memory but why would Apple make their computer RAM slots so easilly accessible if only technicians are supposed to install the RAM? It is so easy anyone can do it, provided they read the instructions carefully.

S-ATA drives give internal hard drive instillations the simplicity IDE lacked. Every S-ATA drive has its own channel so there is no need to flip switches like older hard drives. In the G5 Powermacs hard drives can be slided in to their bays.