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Sauron's Master
Jun 27, 2003, 01:55 PM
I am currently a sophomore in high school and I am attempting to get my parents to get a G5. Specs below.

$3000 model except with 23" Cinema Display ($2000), Radeon 9800 Pro ($300), 2 GB of RAM ($750), Logitech Z-680 speakers($350), and the 250 GB HD ($125). Total cost is $6525.

Let me explain my situation. My parents can afford it, I would love to help pay for it, but unfortunately they won't let me get a job and with 8 AP tests to take this year, I probably wouldn't have time. Fortunately, my parents are stereotypical Asian and are very concerned about my SAT and AP scores, hence I supposed to get monetary credit for them. The problem is that I need a new computer now for an online class (EPGY Stanford), and there's a difference between the time I take my AP tests and SAT's which is later in my sophomore year. My proposal to them has been to purchase this computer now and let me 'pay it off' through credits from high AP and SAT scores (which I will get, I'll elaborate later). What I need to is to convince them to accept the plan and get me the G5. So I need help on identifying the benefits of G5, the strong points of it, somehow justifying my configuration, and then getting credit from my current SAT scores. Any help would be appreciated.

Next comes what I have to work with. Freshman year, I have recevied a SAT score and a SAT II score. My SAT score is 1460 (710 math, 750 Verbal) and I received a 770 in SAT II Biology. GPA has been 4.0. Summer classes are Pre-calc(h) and Chem(h). Next year classes are AP Chemistry, AP COmputer Science, AP French, AP Calculus BC, Marching Band, World Lit, and World History. That's the academics I have to work with, but my parents are very big on my education and ensuring I study very hard. A precedent has been set with agreements dealing with required studying in the form of my previous deal with my parents that allowed me to date. Absolutely any help justifying the G5, convincing my parents to buy it for me, and then any help justifying monetary credit for my SAT scores would be highly appreciated. Thank you in advance. In addition, I would like to show my parents I really want this computer and any ideas on how to do so would even more appreciated. Finally, if you desire to read the essay I wrote summarizing my arguments for the G5, please contact me by PMing or emailing me. Again, thanks. :)

Abstract
Jun 27, 2003, 02:21 PM
You want RAM? Get it anywhere else but Apple. Crucial (http://www.crucial.com/) has great RAM.

You want a Cinema Display? Go to Formac (http://www.crucial.com/).

You may save $1000 this way. Plus, Mac's last longer than PC's in terms of value and usefulness. Oh, and they're prettier and better. I don't think you need any other reasons to get a Mac. ;)

Fender2112
Jun 27, 2003, 02:24 PM
What you described is called positive reinforcement (you'll learn about this when you take psychology 101) and works really well most of the time. Your could try the reverse or negative reinforcement. Explain how NOT having this setup will send you into a downward spiral of depression that may emotionally scar you for life. Your SAT scores will fall dramatically and the best you can hope is a two year degree at a junior college or tech school. Explain that you will never be able to get married because you feel so inferior that you are not good enough for anyone.

Or you could pitch a hissy fit like a three-year old.

Seriously though, the G5 represents the best in current personal computing technology. The G5 and PPC architecture is fairly new with room to grow. Many folks feel the x86 architecture of PC's is nearing the end of it's lifespan. And who knows what Microsoft will copy next. The G5's are fast and the system you described should fit your needs for many years, unlike PC's where people upgrade every two years. I'm not sure I followed your credit deal. Explain to your parents that macs require a lot less futzzing or tinkering....they just work.

Hope this helps a little:)

Sauron's Master
Jun 27, 2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Abstract
You want RAM? Get it anywhere else but Apple. Crucial (http://www.crucial.com/) has great RAM.

You want a Cinema Display? Go to Formac (http://www.crucial.com/).

You may save $1000 this way. Plus, Mac's last longer than PC's in terms of value and usefulness. Oh, and they're prettier and better. I don't think you need any other reasons to get a Mac. ;)

Heh. Unfortunately, I don't think my parents would like that reason. ;) . I am getting my RAM from somewhere else, I just happened to list it with the AppleStore section for convienence. As for the monitor, I'll keep the Apple 23" Cinema Display...at least until I have to negotiate it down with parents.

Sauron's Master
Jun 27, 2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Fender2112
What you described is called positive reinforcement (you'll learn about this when you take psychology 101) and works really well most of the time. Your could try the reverse or negative reinforcement. Explain how NOT having this setup will send you into a downward spiral of depression that may emotionally scar you for life. Your SAT scores will fall dramatically and the best you can hope is a two year degree at a junior college or tech school. Explain that you will never be able to get married because you feel so inferior that you are not good enough for anyone.

Or you could pitch a hissy fit like a three-year old.

Seriously though, the G5 represents the best in current personal computing technology. The G5 and PPC architecture is fairly new with room to grow. Many folks feel the x86 architecture of PC's is nearing the end of it's lifespan. And who knows what Microsoft will copy next. The G5's are fast and the system you described should fit your needs for many years, unlike PC's where people upgrade every two years. I'm not sure I followed your credit deal. Explain to your parents that macs require a lot less futzzing or tinkering....they just work.

Hope this helps a little:)

If you mean Psychology 101 as freshman introductory psychology in college, I'll be taking that next year as a night class. :D . Thanks for the listing of some benefits. Allow me to clarify the credit deal: Parents buy computer now. I will owe the cost of the computer minus whatever amount they're willing to pay, and current credit from my SAT scores. Hence, that is my 'debt' to them. I will 'pay off' this 'debt' by doing what I would do anyway, by earning cash off SAT and AP scores. Except I get my computer early, instead of paying for a computer now (which I have to buy one now) and again later, after I earn enough from test scores, the only computer bought is purchased now and I pay it off over the year, which actually saves money. As an additional benefit, my parents are assured that I actually study instead of winging it like I did freshman year. (Fortunately, my parents don't know that.)

pgwalsh
Jun 27, 2003, 02:45 PM
Why don't you write up a contract with your parents.

Explain:
Why you want the computer and how you will you use.
What you're willing to do.
How you will pay them back
Maybe include interest.


Maybe include a clause that will allow them to take it away when you're not focusing on what's important...

I don't think you need to justify the merits of the machine. The fact is you want it, but you don't need to convince them how great it is... You're excitment explains enough.

machinehead
Jun 27, 2003, 02:55 PM
You might want to point out to your folks that you're only a couple of years away from getting your driver's license.

If you were like a lot of your classmates, you could spend your loot on a car ... and proceed to hang out late at night, pick up girls and other bad influences, drink and do drugs, get into dangerous street races, etc.

Instead, you are willing to stay safely at home in your room under your parents' watchful tutelage -- just you and your G5 -- exercising your young agile mind and honing those vital academic skills.

Surely any responsible parent can perceive that a Mac G5 provides a far more wholesome environment for a restless youth than a souped-up Honda coupe with chrome wheels and neon lights glowing from the undercarriage ...

Sauron's Master
Jun 27, 2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by pgwalsh
Why don't you write up a contract with your parents.

Explain:
Why you want the computer and how you will you use.
What you're willing to do.
How you will pay them back
Maybe include interest.


Maybe include a clause that will allow them to take it away when you're not focusing on what's important...

I don't think you need to justify the merits of the machine. The fact is you want it, but you don't need to convince them how great it is... You're excitment explains enough.

I really don't want to go into the specs of the machine to parents as they just might think it's excessive for a 15-year old kid. ;-). I am in the process of finishing up a nice 15 page packet fully expanding on everyone of my points and arguments, and then finishing up with the benefits to the family of the G5, and an agreement that details what I want and what they get. That clause will keep my parents enticed in the deal. It keeps me studying.

tpjunkie
Jun 27, 2003, 03:03 PM
Now lets not forget there are plenty of good things to be said for hanging out late at night, picking up girls, and drinking. :p :D

machinehead
Jun 27, 2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by tpjunkie
Now lets not forget there are plenty of good things to be said for hanging out late at night, picking up girls, and drinking. :p :D
Right ... what if the Honda is next year's proposal?

Leave yourself an out, Sauron! With a 12 VDC-to-120 VAC inverter, the Mac G5 could be installed in the trunk. A veritable classroom on wheels, as it were ... bringing learning and enlightenment to the entire community.

bwawn
Jun 27, 2003, 03:07 PM
Whoa.

Whether or not you get the computer, I just want to comment that your achievements are amazing. You're not yet 16 and you're already more fit for college than most people who just graduated from your school probably are.

If you're taking that many APs next year, along with courses from a local community college (sounds like this is what you're doing), you will end up with about two years total to complete in college by the time you're done with highschool, since you should be just about done with enough GE credits for the first two years. And with those kinds of SAT scores already (which absolutely blows me away), you'll get in anywhere you want.

This should all be enough to convince your parents you've earned this computer. The fact that you're going to save them two years worth of college tuition at a top-notch university should be enough to let them get you the computer. Just tell them the G5 will provide more incentive and a better environment to study.

Sauron's Master
Jun 27, 2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by bwawn
Whoa.

Whether or not you get the computer, I just want to comment that your achievements are amazing. You're not yet 16 and you're already more fit for college than most people who just graduated from your school probably are.

If you're taking that many APs next year, along with courses from a local community college (sounds like this is what you're doing), you will end up with about two years total to complete in college by the time you're done with highschool, since you should be just about done with enough GE credits for the first two years. And with those kinds of SAT scores already (which absolutely blows me away), you'll get in anywhere you want.

This should all be enough to convince your parents you've earned this computer. The fact that you're going to save them two years worth of college tuition at a top-notch university should be enough to let them get you the computer. Just tell them the G5 will provide more incentive and a better environment to study.

Thanks for the compliments. Heh. I am not saving them 2 years of tuition at Harvard or such. My intent has been to double major in Political Science and Pscyhology in college and the 2 years saved allows me to get a jump start and actually finish in 4 years. As for my little problem, it's because my parents wanted 4 AP's as a freshman and the 1600 and 800, so I'm not having the easiest time getting some credit from it. But hopefully the precedent set before (I usually get what I really want) will continue. BTW, the G5 is for something that lets me take even more AP and college undergraduate courses, so my parents are willing to get me the G5, just not with the specs I want.

Abstract
Jun 27, 2003, 03:34 PM
Wow, your parents ARE stereotypically asian. My mom isn't like that at all (thank G*d!!!). :cool:

Now if you excuse me, I have to go practice my calligraphy, tune my piano, Feng Shui my house, and prepare for dinner before letting my mom tell me to become a doctor or engineer, and how to live my life. I may get disowned if I disobey my mother; or worse yet, I may be defeated by her once again. Her monkey-style is too great for my tiger claw!! Arghhh!! I do not want to bring shame to her or the Wudan Temple anymore. All my life energy preserved from practicing feng shui was harnessed, and yet...and yet it proved of little use. :(
And as I lay there in front of the poorly made fire, bleeding, injured, and faint, Lucy Liu holds my drained body in her arms and gives me a kiss. I quickly regain my energy, and emerge from her arms yielding the Green Destiny. My Wudan skills are suddenly greater, as well as my uncanny ability to cook shrimp dumplings.

PS: Tell your parents that it is for school, and that it can only help you. The cost of the computer with those components is to prevent you from having to upgrade your computer for years upon years (say 4 years and NO LESS). You'll pay them back eventually, and you'll earn enough "credit" by having scored high on your SAT's. Find out the percentage of high school kids that you beat on their SAT's. You can use the Formac monitor and RAM from Crucial (instead of Apple) as bargaining chips since it'll make the computer $1000 cheaper. Actually, Formac monitors are arguably as impressive as Apple's monitors. ;)

P-Worm
Jun 27, 2003, 03:36 PM
Why do you need this computer anyway? That is quite a computer for someone going into psychology. Sure having that computer would be awesome (I want one too), but do you do anything that requires that kind of power? Do you do video editing or Photoshop work? Or do you just want to be able to play Doom 3 when it comes out. ;)

As for the computer you want, I think it is the best buy for the money. That machine will last a long time. I'm still chugging away on my bottom line original G4 in the other room.

P-Worm

Sauron's Master
Jun 27, 2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by P-Worm
Why do you need this computer anyway? That is quite a computer for someone going into psychology. Sure having that computer would be awesome (I want one too), but do you do anything that requires that kind of power? Do you do video editing or Photoshop work? Or do you just want to be able to play Doom 3 when it comes out. ;)

As for the computer you want, I think it is the best buy for the money. That machine will last a long time. I'm still chugging away on my bottom line original G4 in the other room.

P-Worm

I'm going into law and psychology but I still maintain an interest in the sciences and math. Why do I want that computer? So I can kick the asses of all my friend's comps (none of them have anything close to that kind of power even though I live in a fairly affluent part of Silicon Valley.). I also do 3D design as a hobby and do computer programming. So I guess I sorta need the power of the G5 but it's mostly likely because I want it and I can probably get it eventually after a week or two of working the parents. Playing Doom 3 or UT 2k3 at insane FPS would be a big plus too. ;-). The fact that the machine will last a very long time is a very good thing, my parents like value and longterm usage a lot.

Warren
Jun 27, 2003, 04:06 PM
Why dont you just go talk to them about it, look at the website with them. They're your parents for god's sake you shouldn't need to draw up 15 page business proposals for your P's.

Jeromino
Jun 27, 2003, 04:18 PM
I'm going into law and psychology but I still maintain an interest in the sciences and math. Why do I want that computer? So I can kick the asses of all my friend's comps

Time to find a better reason ;)

While I do understand the allure of this system, I must say that your argument falters if you fail to present actual reasons for possessing such a machine - concrete reasons. My father helped me out on a Powerbook (the '35' of a 65/35) when I showed him the difference between it and an iBook in regards to my work in FCP 3 and Photoshop/Web Work. I wanted a laptop for portability and had an idea for expandability (Cinema Display and Dock setup to come later, etc.) My father isn't even very computer literate, but realizes the value of expandability and productivity. Your G5 - while incredible - is overkill if you aren't going beyond what Johnny-16-year-old is doing. Part of the equation is consideration - don't rake em over; the backlash would be substantial.

The only person who can usually justify $6525 for a computer is the person that's going to be using it.

Sauron's Master
Jun 27, 2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Warren
Why dont you just go talk to them about it, look at the website with them. They're your parents for god's sake you shouldn't need to draw up 15 page business proposals for your P's.

My parents aren't going to be swayed by the Apple website. If they read all of Apple's hype, it could adversely affect the reasons they think I'm buying the computer for. Yes, they are my parents, that's exactly why I need to draw up those proposals to my parents. The last time I spent approximately 4 a day for a week arguing with them to allow me to do something. This proposal will streamline the process by delivering the information I want without entering into a debate about Darwinism or what produces happiness. What it also does is show my parents that I very willing to put effort and thought into this project.

Sauron's Master
Jun 27, 2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Jeromino
Time to find a better reason ;)

While I do understand the allure of this system, I must say that your argument falters if you fail to present actual reasons for possessing such a machine - concrete reasons. My father helped me out on a Powerbook (the '35' of a 65/35) when I showed him the difference between it and an iBook in regards to my work in FCP 3 and Photoshop/Web Work. I wanted a laptop for portability and had an idea for expandability (Cinema Display and Dock setup to come later, etc.) My father isn't even very computer literate, but realizes the value of expandability and productivity. Your G5 - while incredible - is overkill if you aren't going beyond what Johnny-16-year-old is doing. Part of the equation is consideration - don't rake em over; the backlash would be substantial.

The only person who can usually justify $6525 for a computer is the person that's going to be using it.

I can justify it given time and effort but I have other stuff to do. A good reason also would be creative and I'm not currently in the most creative mood. I do have concrete reasons for this: I have limited time now to do 3D modeling and computer programming especially with studying for all my standardized tests. Therefore I can't waste hours waiting for something to rerender or recompile but rather it should take a minute or so to be efficient and maximize both my productivity in this and in my test scores. The 23" LCD Disply I will find hard to justify but I'm hoping to just allow my parents to allow me to purchase that as my reward for a year of hardwork. And Johnny is probably playing CS or UT 2K3 all the time. I'm pretty sure I'm doing stuff way beyond that.

Schiffi
Jun 27, 2003, 04:46 PM
Download the G5 intro video. It is really good. It's on www.apple.com/powermac/ or search these forums for someone hosting it if you want to download it and not stream it. Set it up as a presentation :)

Sauron's Master
Jun 27, 2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Schiffi
Download the G5 intro video. It is really good. It's on www.apple.com/powermac/ or search these forums for someone hosting it if you want to download it and not stream it. Set it up as a presentation :)

You know what the funny thing about that proposal is? My computer really can't handle it. My hard drive could probably barely fit the file but downloading would be impossibly slow on my dial-up connection and streaming it would lag my computer like nothing else. Perhaps I could set it up and show it. It would be a nice display of how old my computer is and how obsolete it is.

Jeromino
Jun 27, 2003, 06:48 PM
I wish you the best of luck. It's an intriguing situation to me - not necessarily one which I feel inclined to debate to the bitter end, but it poses questions here and there that should be sufficient for your needs in this thread.

One of my main focuses, both personally and academically, is writing. I enroll in the most challenging writing courses available to me at my University, and concurrently work in a program where I assist other students in a pseudo-TA role. Much of this work, specifically in the fall, deals with how to construct efficient persuasive arguments (which raises my interest in this thread.) In High School, I was involved with a number of activities that required administrative and regional clearances - that involved drafting multi-page proposals and attention-grabbing letters and whatnot. What you're trying to do here isn't too foreign to me.

Even still, my penchant for writing and my track record of excelling in the craft over the years couldn't garner me a 6k G5, much the way you're utilizing your test scores and perceived work ethic as the main 'pitch' for your machine (See: Freshman year regarding the perception issue; it's all about ethos). You can explain to your folks that you have little time to do what you want to with your cpu-intensive stuff, but until you provide that this stuff is important enough to you now and in the future to warrant the $6,000 expenditure, you're probably going to come up short. I, like you, have 'productive' hobbies - such as video editing and web design work. When I sought my father's help, it was because these hobbies had merged with my writing skills and education, as I leaned towards a career/serious hobby in event production and marketing. If your 3D and CS work is tertiary (As in "And he even does 3D work in his spare time!") then you're not likely to achieve your goal with this pitch.

With a request of this proportion, you've got to weigh that price tag. Regardless of your family's income, you're requesting 6.5 grand in about 52 pounds of aluminum and silicon. People take notice to that. The Cinema Display and the Z-680's are also luxuries, which you're counting on as 'rewards' - you must consider firstly that the G5 tower in itself is a reward, as you're taking the box in advance for a test-score-to-be-named-later. If I were you, I would seriously consider getting the best engine you can for this setup, and piecing the rest together over time, with or without the assistance of your parents.

A couple random points that may or may not have anything to do with you, but you might want to consider while constructing this argument:

# Ultimately, you're in school for yourself, and your achievements should be a way for you to reward yourself later on. Your parents are remarkable caretakers and assistants along the way, but you earn the grades for yourself, not for their pleasure and reward. Your opening comments indicate that you understand this, but so many don't that I felt it needed to be placed in the middle of this all.

# Your time is most valuable to yourself. Therefore, the amount of hours you put in and the amount of free time you have for hobbies is significantly less important to anyone else. The "busy" argument only goes so far, before others - who are inevitably busy with their own lives, no matter how significant you perceive their activities - start to consider your excuse as whining. (You might want to take that into account when your construct your reasons for this machine.. yes it's faster, but most certainly it's more compatible, and could even be used by the whole family with panther's remarkable user-switching...ahem..)

I don't know if this helps or not, but most arguments need Devil's advocate. And it came from someone who just finished a semester on Darwin, at that ;)

Sauron's Master
Jun 27, 2003, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by Jeromino
I wish you the best of luck. It's an intriguing situation to me - not necessarily one which I feel inclined to debate to the bitter end, but it poses questions here and there that should be sufficient for your needs in this thread.

One of my main focuses, both personally and academically, is writing. I enroll in the most challenging writing courses available to me at my University, and concurrently work in a program where I assist other students in a pseudo-TA role. Much of this work, specifically in the fall, deals with how to construct efficient persuasive arguments (which raises my interest in this thread.) In High School, I was involved with a number of activities that required administrative and regional clearances - that involved drafting multi-page proposals and attention-grabbing letters and whatnot. What you're trying to do here isn't too foreign to me.

Even still, my penchant for writing and my track record of excelling in the craft over the years couldn't garner me a 6k G5, much the way you're utilizing your test scores and perceived work ethic as the main 'pitch' for your machine (See: Freshman year regarding the perception issue; it's all about ethos). You can explain to your folks that you have little time to do what you want to with your cpu-intensive stuff, but until you provide that this stuff is important enough to you now and in the future to warrant the $6,000 expenditure, you're probably going to come up short. I, like you, have 'productive' hobbies - such as video editing and web design work. When I sought my father's help, it was because these hobbies had merged with my writing skills and education, as I leaned towards a career/serious hobby in event production and marketing. If your 3D and CS work is tertiary (As in "And he even does 3D work in his spare time!") then you're not likely to achieve your goal with this pitch.

With a request of this proportion, you've got to weigh that price tag. Regardless of your family's income, you're requesting 6.5 grand in about 52 pounds of aluminum and silicon. People take notice to that. The Cinema Display and the Z-680's are also luxuries, which you're counting on as 'rewards' - you must consider firstly that the G5 tower in itself is a reward, as you're taking the box in advance for a test-score-to-be-named-later. If I were you, I would seriously consider getting the best engine you can for this setup, and piecing the rest together over time, with or without the assistance of your parents.

A couple random points that may or may not have anything to do with you, but you might want to consider while constructing this argument:

# Ultimately, you're in school for yourself, and your achievements should be a way for you to reward yourself later on. Your parents are remarkable caretakers and assistants along the way, but you earn the grades for yourself, not for their pleasure and reward. Your opening comments indicate that you understand this, but so many don't that I felt it needed to be placed in the middle of this all.

# Your time is most valuable to yourself. Therefore, the amount of hours you put in and the amount of free time you have for hobbies is significantly less important to anyone else. The "busy" argument only goes so far, before others - who are inevitably busy with their own lives, no matter how significant you perceive their activities - start to consider your excuse as whining. (You might want to take that into account when your construct your reasons for this machine.. yes it's faster, but most certainly it's more compatible, and could even be used by the whole family with panther's remarkable user-switching...ahem..)

I don't know if this helps or not, but most arguments need Devil's advocate. And it came from someone who just finished a semester on Darwin, at that ;) Thanks for the luck. Hopefully I won't need it. ;).


My parents are obsessed about me getting into an elite school. I don't know whether it's the culture or their personal beliefs, their belief that I have potential, or a combination of the three. What I do know is that it is connected to getting me into an elite school, my parents will very strongly consider it. I fully intend to work towards being able to send a CD of my 3D or programming work to Harvard or whatever school apply to as part of my college application. I know they will accept it, and I can honestly explain to my parents that I will do that. Not only that, I also intend to apply as an engineering or computer science major to MIT and Cal Tech. If I previous programming work that was highly useful or widely known, it would help me quite a bit. My job is to make sure that my parents understand this. If they do, I know they get me that computer especially with my other proposal. My 3D and CS would not be teritary nor would they be primary pursuits. They however would be integrated into my plan for getting into the elite schools I want to get into, hence they would get at least secondary priority as extracurricular activities. And perhaps, I may change my mind in career paths if I'm only accepted to MIT and nothing else elite. Many people have said my skills were more suited for computer science rather than political science. My verbal score seems to disprove that. In the end, the question is: will my parents think these extracurriculars will be worth the extra $2500 they have to spend on this computer? I believe the answer to be yes if I can convince them of my sincerity which should not be hard because I am being completely truthful in this.

Taking the price tag into context is necessary. I haven't bought any computer equipment since I got my Powerbook 5 years ago. I haven't requested anything major that wasn't closely related to academics for like 3 years. I feel that this at least partially reduces the supposed luxury of this computer. I'm counting the right to earn those two items and the G5 the reward, not the items themselves. I still have to work to get them. That last option is impossible since I still need to front $5000 for the comp and monitor and possibly more.


My hobbies are very important to my parents, mostly for my aforementioned reasons. I have taken that into account and fully intend to give reasons benefiting both my family and I. It is only logical to appeal to both their desire to get me into an elite school and their own desires for convenience and happiness


And yes, devil's advocates are occasionally helpful. Although I'm used to playing that part. :)

law guy
Jun 27, 2003, 09:40 PM
A top o' the line G5 today will be an Apple mid-line 12 mo. from now. Two years from now, it probably won't even exist in the PM line-up. If you're buying this computer for the long-term, then I think you could say, "I want a computer that won't run the to-be-developed gargantuan MS Word for os XIII dog slow," and that would be a pretty good reason.

I was in law school when I bought a top o' the line Dell Dimension PII 266 back in 1997. It had 64 MBs of RAM, an 8 MB Matrox card and a zip drive. When I went to sell the machine in early 1998 to purchase a Toshiba laptop, the guy who bought it from me was in the sciences and said, "why do you need all of this power." Now, we all know that a PII 266 now makes a lovely print server.

Heck, now I have a dual 1.42 and while someone might have said "that's a lot of power" two weeks ago, in light of the G5, it seems very mid-line (although no longer offered by Apple).

Your justifications actually make me worry that you'll run up against your machine's limitations in 3 to 4 years. If machine power is doubling every 18 months through that point, the top o' the line Mac will be more than twice as powerful by the time you get to undergrad (assuming I've read correctly what you've said about your current place on the academic time line).

While your parents can afford it, if it makes it an easier "sell" why not just ask for the top of the line G5 and get a nice 19" flat screen trinitron CRT for $350? That way you get the box you really want and a big bright screen that was everyone's lust item three short years ago. Seems to me that the box is the critical element of what you want.


You can tell your parent's that they can donate the money saved to a local headstart program. :) Tax deduction.

Finally, don't forget to have some teenage fun because here's the kicker of life - you're only young once and if we follow an average table, you've only got 60 years or so left (although I wish you many more than that) and counting. Make every day count, because you'll blink and be 25, blink again and be 35, etc. Okay - enough of that.

We could also go into how your undergrad degree or degrees will seem less critical for many grad school endeavors, and no employer will really care once you have your grad degree and so question the value of a double major, but that would drag on too, too long.

Best of luck with everything.

e-coli
Jun 27, 2003, 10:29 PM
Just tell them it's a small price to pay for an investment in your future. ;)

Wow. That was good. :D

Frohickey
Jun 27, 2003, 11:05 PM
You could tell them that the G5 can download porn much faster than your old computer, and that will allow you more time to study. :o

Just kidding. :D

Maybe you should go get a job too. Nothing like learning the ways of the world. Just make sure you pick a part-time job that's flexible. Working develops character. I've been developing character for a while now.

There is the added experience of bonafide pride in yourself when you pay for your own way, pay for your own toys, and make it even though its seemingly too difficult. That is something that being booksmart cannot even replace.

solvs
Jun 27, 2003, 11:29 PM
Wow, I wish I had your problem. Then again, my parents pushed me too, so no I don't.

Any way, simply tell them your current machine can't handle what you need it to do. Simple truth. The new G5 isn't future proof, but it should do you for awhile. Dollar for dollar the dual 2 GHz G5 is yer best best. Even if you could spend $4000+ on a Dual Operteron, the Mac is better for what you do. Do they really want you to spend half your computer time fixing Windows and dealing with Linux (if this is an issue)? Besides, there is always VPC.

You can get a lot of work done on that G5. That's reason enough. If they want you to do these things, the least they can do is give you the tools to do it. We can't call you spoiled, because your working for it. And if they won't let you get a job, and they can afford it, there you go. This isn't a reward, it's a tool to get the job (they want you to do) done. Which as you've mentioned, really is almost impossible (if not a lot more time consuming) with the tools you have.

And then you can "compromise" and "settle" for a cheaper display and third party RAM. You can justify the extra hd space with the fact that you can never have enough. And $125 for a 250GB drive is worth it.

Besides, you can always tell them you'll let them play with it too. But then never let them, because you're always using it and make them get their own. Or let them get it and always use it. Either way.

crush7
Jun 28, 2003, 01:09 AM
hi,

this may sound a bit ironic, but eventually there isn't much that is really future-proof. Probably no computer.

Don't invest too much time on this issue, if you aks me. Of course just about anyone in these forums wants that G5, but I guess there are many that decide to stick with their older hardware, for whatever reasons. And in the long run, well, you know what i wanna say........

Sauron's Master
Jun 28, 2003, 01:34 AM
Update

Parents are 75% likely to agree to my proposal. I explained, promised, they liked it, said they need to discuss later, told me to submit full report of 13 pages tomorrow. The only true sticking point is the 23" LCD monitor. I guess I'll fight for another week and then bargain down.

Sedulous
Jun 28, 2003, 02:06 AM
Very interesting. My parents never even asked why I never brought books home from school or even study for that matter. Yet here I sit, 50 feet from Widener Library (Harvard's "main" library). There is some good advice in this thread. Yet, you know your parents better than anyone here so you might want to go with your instincts.

Some Harvard/"elite school" specific advice:

1: PERFECT scores are not necessary... admissions folks really want to see unique skills and interests. These two fellas are weighed as heavily as academic achievement. The admissions process can be simplified in the following way: There are five categories, each of which are assigned values such as "excellent" "good" "average" "poor". Typically, any more than two categories below "excellent" takes you out of the running. Two of the categories have nothing to do with academics. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to have some unique skill/interest.

2: Don't go to Harvard if you want to study engineering/com sci. I'm not just saying that because Bill Gates went here.

Abstract
Jun 28, 2003, 02:28 AM
Since you have a counter-reply to all of the suggestions made so far, why did you even bother asking us?

Frohickey
Jun 28, 2003, 02:29 AM
Russian programmers were stuck using computers in the same class as Apple IIs. When the Iron Curtain finally came down, these guys were programming gods. Couldn't read their code though. ;)

MacAztec
Jun 28, 2003, 02:32 AM
Tell them the G5 will bring greatness to the Wu Tang clan and the Kung Low Possee. And the fung shui temple is not far from destruction, but it will be redeemed.

Oh, and as for the evil emporer Wang? He will be assasinated by the Wu Tang clan, they do not put up with Kung Fu Choo Lu.

Sauron's Master
Jun 28, 2003, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by Sedulous


Some Harvard/"elite school" specific advice:

1: PERFECT scores are not necessary... admissions folks really want to see unique skills and interests. These two fellas are weighed as heavily as academic achievement. The admissions process can be simplified in the following way: There are five categories, each of which are assigned values such as "excellent" "good" "average" "poor". Typically, any more than two categories below "excellent" takes you out of the running. Two of the categories have nothing to do with academics. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to have some unique skill/interest.

2: Don't go to Harvard if you want to study engineering/com sci. I'm not just saying that because Bill Gates went here.

This is going slightly off-topic but I'll argue it anyway. First off, perfect scores can't hurt. From personal experience (ie, knowing a lot of people going to elite schools), most of them did not have something truly unique. They were just talented at what they did which was typically something fairly common like Debate or Marching Band. I've never heard of the 5 categories system. I do know the Ivy League uses a rubric, which is said to be very similar to the one a Dean of Admissions at Princeton described in a book with two categories: academics and extracurriculars. Not much is truly unique when you have an enormous number of applicants. Harvard is good at pretty much anything but I'm intending to only major in Comp Sci if I get into MIT. Yes, I'm applying to all the top elite schools in the country (ie Ivy's, MIT, Cal-Tech, and Stanford). Back on-topic, Abstract, I had replies for the suggestions because I am highly argumentative and usually respond to good ideas by a certain skepticism. I appreciate all the help and yes, I'm actually using some the advice given.

Sedulous
Jun 28, 2003, 03:21 AM
Yep, obviously perfect scores don't hurt unless it comes at the expense of having nothing else to offer (not that I am suggesting you don't).

I know a lot of people at "elite" schools. I also know some people that sit on admissions at elite schools.

Examples of unique talent: Building instruments out of PVC pipes. Holding a world record for juggling. Singing opera. Or even some form of voluntary community service. One of my friends (who was a disgruntled comp. sci concentrator at Harvard) designed the foreign exchange website for Fleet Bank.

Another arguement for getting the G5 would be simply "price"; it is cheaper than a G4 but not "cheap" like a PeeCee. Even though buying a computer is never an investment (because it always depreciates) it still should be considered as one.

scem0
Jun 28, 2003, 03:51 AM
I really wouldnt go for the 23 inch.

This monitor would look MUCH better, but I dunno how much it costs etc.

http://www.eyegonomic.com/page.dsp?page=46

http://www.macminute.com/images/db/eyegonomict24

The apple LCDs are outdated and pricey. I don't know about this LCD. All i know is that it will look hella good with the G5 and that it is new.

scem0

void
Jun 28, 2003, 09:49 AM
750 for 2 GB of RAM? RIPOFF! And the same with the speakers.
Get your RAM (http://www.newegg.com/app/Viewproduct.asp?DEPA=1&submit=property&catalog=147&mfrcode=1687&propertycodevalue=0,%202993,%203953,%200&keywords=&minprice=&maxprice=&description=%20&srchFor=GL5123200B) and your speakers (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=z%2D680) from newegg.com (http://www.newegg.com).
You can get even more that way.

rhpenguin
Jun 28, 2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by tpjunkie
Now lets not forget there are plenty of good things to be said for hanging out late at night, picking up girls, and drinking. :p :D

Ill drink to that!! lmao.

MacFan25
Jun 29, 2003, 08:43 AM
Have you looked into getting a laptop instead of the G5? If you are going to be in college in a couple years, and you are already taking college courses, then the you probably could really take advantage of the portability. Right? The PowerBooks are rumored to be updated soon, so maybe you could look into this.

Good luck with everthing! :)

cubist
Jun 29, 2003, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by MacFan25
Have you looked into getting a laptop instead of the G5? If you are going to be in college in a couple years, and you are already taking college courses, then the you probably could really take advantage of the portability. Right? The PowerBooks are rumored to be updated soon, so maybe you could look into this.

Good luck with everthing! :)

Argh, MacFan25 took the words right out of my mouth!

Since Apple refuses to release the 15" update, though, and the 17" is too expensive, and the 12" is kinda slow, I have an alternative suggestion.

Just get a box and use it for one or two years, then upgrade to the G5's available at that time. What box? The dual 1.25GHz. It's priced very attractively right now, and it's fast enough to kick the butt of most PCs out there. Your parents will recognize your shrewd resource management!

But as a second request, could you post your proposal somewhere? Many of us might be able to use some of your arguments in similar situations!

actripxl
Jun 29, 2003, 01:56 PM
Maybe you should hold off for a laptop instead since its a lot easier to get around. 13 pages dude I feel bad for, seriously I think that's sad to have that kind of relationship with your parents. Also take some time for important stuff like GIRLS school isn't everything. Im studying my ass off cause I want to get into a Maxillo Facial Surgery specialization department, but I still include time to go out. It's good to be well rounded but don't spread yourself out to much, again as someone said your only young once, and I gave up on Mathematics to involve myself on being a great Surgeon. The majors you posted do not require that much power so don't try and screw your parents on a "Want" and not a "Need".

gopher
Jun 29, 2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Sauron's Master
Heh. Unfortunately, I don't think my parents would like that reason. ;) . I am getting my RAM from somewhere else, I just happened to list it with the AppleStore section for convienence. As for the monitor, I'll keep the Apple 23" Cinema Display...at least until I have to negotiate it down with parents.

Don't forget, as a student you get a discount. Take a look at the prices on http://www.macprices.com/ for student prices. Just need to be associated with a school in some fashion or another. You don't have to pay $2999 for the G4. Also you can save $200 by going with no Superdrive unless you plan on burning DVDs. And if you have high speed internet you can save even more by dropping the modem. If your credit is good, you can purchase it all from the Apple Store 6 months same as cash.

Spock
Jun 29, 2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Fender2112

Or you could pitch a hissy fit like a three-year old.




That always worked for me.

Sauron's Master
Jun 29, 2003, 08:10 PM
Cubist: I'll post the proposal online sometime after I decide to edit it for grammar and style issues. I'll post the URL in this thread when I do.

actripxl: Trust me. I do stuff besides studying. Like pursue girls for an excessive amount of time. I may study but I still have high levels of hormones like all adolescent boys. ;). That reminds, I spent the 2 weeks before my SAT trying to get one girl instead of studying for the SAT. Thank god my parents haven't found out. :D. Girls take up more of my time than studying. Seriously. I just find that girls are more interesting than then what the author of some paragraph on the SAT intends.

Gopher: Thanks for the idea. Problem is features I want not the cost of the computer. Having a DVD burner somewhat supports my argument that it would allow us to make home videos which helps with my argument for the Cinema Display. As for credit, it won't help my situation since it's not that my parents can't easily afford it, it's that they need to be persuaded they should buy it.