Punched then arrested for being punched?

[JW8725]

yes

[Blue Velvet]

Not at all funny in the slightest... shows the slightly sinister side of the repression of gay rights in Russia and parts of the formerly Eastern bloc.

[skunk]

What is funny about violent assault? :confused:

[Aranince]

Its sad that that guy got punched...but go Russia.

[it5five]

Oh a gay man was punched! HILARIOUS! LOL THAT WAS SO KOOL THANKX FOR SHOWING IT TO US ROSSOUK!!!11!!!!!!1!!

It was obvious he wasn't arrested. He asked for somebody to get him out of there, so the police protected him while they got him out of the crowd.

[skunk]

go Russia.Where should Russia go? :confused:

[skunk]

I think you'll have to explain the hilarity of this one to your confused readership. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Then again, perhaps you're the one who's missing something.

[TheAnswer]

it was obvious he wasn't arrested. He asked for somebody to get him out of there, so the police protected him while they got him out of the crowd.

Actually...according to some reports he was detained by the police while his attacker was allowed to go free. Looks like they also attacked the singer from Right Said Fred and others as well.

Sad. Just sad. :(

Link. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=458017&in_page_id=1811)

[Jopling]

The link isn't working for me.

[Blue Velvet]

Seriously, can incidents like this be any surprise when the Mayor of Moscow inflammatorily denounces the parade as a 'Satanist happening'?


“Last year, Moscow was unprecedentaly pressured to allow here a gay parade which can only be called a Satanist happening,” he said in a speech at the State Kremlin Palace during 15th Christmas educational readings.

“We did not allow this gay parade and will not allow it in future.”

Mr. Luzhkov then thanked Patriarch of All Russia, Alexi II, for his support in this difficult situation when, according to Luzhkov, Moscow authorities found themselves in the situation of huge pressure, especially from the West.

He said that is not appropriate “to propagate same-sex love” and “blasphemy, as if it is creativity and freedom of speech”


http://www.gayrussia.ru/en/news/detail.php?ID=8425


How many journalists killed in Russia over the past few years? There's a bunch of thugs in charge.

[Aranince]

Where should Russia go? :confused:

...as in good for them.

[miloblithe]

Very sad. Most of the Russians I know are not bigoted like this. Unfortunately, as Arinance and rossoUK demonstrate, there are people of low moral character in every country. You two should be very, very ashamed of yourselves.

[Cassie]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1267683,00.html

I'm trying not to laugh

I can see the humor in this, but it's not really that funny. Just because he was saying "someone protect me"?:confused:

[yg17]

...as in good for them.


Good for them for what?

[ChrisWB]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1267683,00.html

I'm trying not to laughHilarious. I only wish they went further. Why not shoot the guy? After all, he was plainly guilty of being different.
Its sad that that guy got punched...but go Russia.Yes, way to keep those minorities down!

There is nothing funny about this. What the hell are people thinking when they support physically attacking someone they disagree with?

[leekohler]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1267683,00.html

I'm trying not to laugh

WTF is wrong with you? I can tell you this- if that happened to me, I wouldn't be asking the cops for help. I'd jump on the MF- just goes to show you that Peter Tatchell is a better guy than me. I admire him for not doing it, but I doubt I'd be able to contain myself. Good for him and shame on you, rossoUK.:mad:

...as in good for them.

And what exactly is good about that?

[ham_man]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1267683,00.html

I'm trying not to laugh
I sincerely hope that you're laughing at the absurdity of the situation and not the guy actually being punched...

[leekohler]

I sincerely hope that you're laughing at the absurdity of the situation and not the guy actually being punched...

Somehow I doubt that.

[aquajet]

I can tell you this- if that happened to me, I wouldn't be asking the cops for help. I'd jump on the MF...

Hmm, kind of a turn on. And I really don't like violence that much. :D ;)

[spork183]

What a bizarre thread. First we have the freak who thinks it is funny, then the one who supports Russia's leadership in their choice to make the country as pathetic as possible. The only way it could get any better is if we could throw in someone from the far, far religious right with a rant about homosexuality, massages, and recreational drugs. Although you do have to talk what you know...

oh, and I forgot, we need a Nambla representative to present a balanced picture.

[leekohler]

What a bizarre thread. First we have the freak who thinks it is funny, then the one who supports Russia's leadership in their choice to make the country as pathetic as possible. The only way it could get any better is if we could throw in someone from the far, far religious right with a rant about homosexuality, massages, and recreational drugs. Although you do have to talk what you know...

oh, and I forgot, we need a Nambla representative to present a balanced picture.

Excuse me, what? :confused: Do NOT EVER put NAMBLA on our level. They're despicable human beings. :mad: What exactly is your point?

[solvs]

...as in good for them.

For arresting a guy for being beat up?

I don't get it. :confused:

Excuse me, what? :confused: Do NOT EVER put NAMBLA on our level. They're despicable human beings. :mad: What exactly is your point?

Other end of the extreme that has nothing to do with anything I assume. ;)

[Blue Velvet]

There's a piece in today's Guardian about this. Members of the European Parliament were also arrested and according to witnesses, were also attacked upon release from the police station, including by a priest.

Question is: How did a rabble of neo-Nazis, skinheads and religiously-inspired cretins know where they were held and when they were due to be released?

Anyone who thinks this is in the slightest bit funny needs to grow up or have their head examined, or both.



As a member of the Council of Europe and signatory to the European convention on human rights, Russia is obliged to allow demonstrations. "It has been shown once again today that human rights are systematically abused in Putin's Russia," Ms Roth said.

The activists had tried to deliver a petition signed by 50 MEPs calling on Moscow's mayor to respect freedom of assembly, but 30 of them were arrested and they did not make it to his city hall office. Mr Beck was later released. Three Russian gay rights campaigners were kept in custody and charged with disobeying police.

Neo-Nazi thugs and an orthodox priest attacked the activists when they were freed several hours after their arrest, witnesses said.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,2089413,00.html

[jamesmcd]

"Someone protect me, someone protect me..."

What?? No Pepper Spray in that handbag of yours??

(That wasn't a gay-slur, just the fact that he sounds like a sissy because some guy laid a crappy punch on him)

[skunk]

That wasn't a gay-slurOh yes it was. As is your signature.

[wordmunger]

"Someone protect me, someone protect me..."

What?? No Pepper Spray in that handbag of yours??

(That wasn't a gay-slur, just the fact that he sounds like a sissy because some guy laid a crappy punch on him)

Apparently he had already been punched and then kicked while he was on the ground. He doesn't look like a very tough guy, and he also seems to have a principled stand against violence. I'm not sure what I'd do in his situation, but I admire the fact that he was willing to put himself in danger to try to protect the rights of others.

It's unclear to me that he was "arrested for getting punched" -- looks like the police might actually have been trying to help. But they should have gone after the guy who did the punching. Correction: I was wrong, see below.

[skunk]

It's unclear to me that he was "arrested for getting punched" -- looks like the police might actually have been trying to help. But they should have gone after the guy who did the punching.You clearly did not read the article:"It was absolutely shocking," the gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell told the Guardian yesterday. "The police stood there while people knocked me to the ground and kicked me. Four or five neo-Nazis attacked me. The police watched. At a certain point the police then arrested me and let my neo-Nazi attackers walk free."http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,2089413,00.html

[wordmunger]

You clearly did not read the article:http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,2089413,00.html

Oh, sorry about that. My mistake. I read this article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=458017&in_page_id=1811), not that one. Truly appalling.

[Peterkro]

Another article with picture of the damage the "crappy punch" did:


http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/index.php (first link didn't work)

Your Sig jamesmcd is offensive.

[aquajet]

"Someone protect me, someone protect me..."

What?? No Pepper Spray in that handbag of yours??

(That wasn't a gay-slur, just the fact that he sounds like a sissy because some guy laid a crappy punch on him)

You're 22? You sound like 12. Grow up. And your sig is disgusting.

[unixfool]

Hilarious. I only wish they went further. Why not shoot the guy? After all, he was plainly guilty of being different.
Yes, way to keep those minorities down!

There is nothing funny about this. What the hell are people thinking when they support physically attacking someone they disagree with?

Minorities??? Being gay isn't about race, color, or sex (true sex, man or woman). Being gay is a state of mind. Children are not born gay...children are children. It's when children become more aware of the world that they start contemplating who they are and where they want to go.

IMO, being gay is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being a minority. You chose to be gay. I don't chose to be male and black, but I am. That was determined by genes, not the way I consider myself.

[bartelby]

Minorities??? Being gay isn't about race, color, or sex (true sex, man or woman). Being gay is a state of mind. Children are not born gay...children are children. It's when children become more aware of the world that they start contemplating who they are and where they want to go.

IMO, being gay is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being a minority. You chose to be gay. I don't chose to be male and black, but I am. That was determined by genes, not the way I consider myself.

Not this argument again. You don't chose to be gay, or straight or bi, you just are.

[PlaceofDis]

Minorities??? Being gay isn't about race, color, or sex (true sex, man or woman). Being gay is a state of mind. Children are not born gay...children are children. It's when children become more aware of the world that they start contemplating who they are and where they want to go.

IMO, being gay is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being a minority. You chose to be gay. I don't chose to be male and black, but I am. That was determined by genes, not the way I consider myself.

try looking up the meaning of minority again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority

oh and i'm not going to bother touching the other part of your post.

[Blue Velvet]

You chose to be gay.


Where's the evidence for anyone choosing their sexuality? Did you choose to be straight?

[spork183]

Excuse me, what? :confused: Do NOT EVER put NAMBLA on our level. They're despicable human beings. :mad: What exactly is your point?

My point was the thread had some frankly extreme positions. I consider Nambla to be about as bizarrely (criminally, freakishly) extreme as you can get, hence the reference.

Where's the evidence for anyone choosing their sexuality? Did you choose to be straight?

Blue Velvet, it's a losing battle. There will always be people who consider sexuality a choice, just as there will always be people who consider it to be biological. and I've seldom seen any evidence of movement between the camps.

[Blue Velvet]

Blue Velvet, it's a losing battle. There will always be people who consider sexuality a choice, just as there will always be people who consider it to be biological.


Just because it may seem fruitless, it doesn't mean that bigotry and ignorance should be challenged where possible. There is no foundation to the belief that sexuality is a choice... yet plenty asserting it isn't, so reminding people that hold these reflexive, ill-thought views is the least that anyone who cares about these issues can do.

[JW8725]

ok just to clear up, I was referring to the situation itself. I thought they arrested the wrong guy...etc. I'm surprised frankly a few of you would post to think that was not the idea of this thread. IF I HAD WANTED TO LAUGH AT THE GAY GUY I WOULD HAVE TITLED IT SOMETHING LIKE GAY GUY GETS PUNCHED - FUNNY...ETC


Sorry if it wasn't clear but hardly a biggot when I have gay friends. My stance on homosexuality is simple, don't care...etc. Not getting involved in the gay dispute that has developed since the post personally but I'm not taking kindly to that one moron calling me a loser.:mad: You owe me an apology!

Plenty of anti gay posts / pro gay about this over on the you-tube version, it seems that society is split not just in Moscow about this topic though.

[unixfool]

Oh yes it was. As is your signature.

His sig is not a slur. It will certainly offend some, though.

try looking up the meaning of minority again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority

oh and i'm not going to bother touching the other part of your post.

LOL! Wikipedia?? You've GOT to be kidding! If not, you've my pity.

[spork183]

Just because it may seem fruitless, it doesn't mean that bigotry and ignorance should be challenged where possible. There is no foundation to the belief that sexuality is a choice... yet plenty asserting it isn't, so reminding people that hold these reflexive, ill-thought views is the least that anyone who cares about these issues can do.

Too true. I just don't see any movement. Always liked the poem attributed to Martin Niemoller: It resonates for speaking out to injustice, even if it seems to make no difference.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

[unixfool]

Where's the evidence for anyone choosing their sexuality? Did you choose to be straight?

Of course not, but that's the way it is. It's like asking why dirt is black or brown...it is what it is. I didn't chose to be 'straight'. Did you choose to be crooked? I guess I have to be gay to truly understand. Keep in mind that there are gay bigots. It's not that I'm ignorant in this. I actually don't WANT to know the inner nuances of being gay. I certainly don't gay-bash or tell crude gay jokes because everyone is human, but I certainly don't think gayness warrants the attention that gays crave. Animals don't have a gay category. They procreate to further their species. They don't consider, "hey, I think I like males better so I'll only be procreating with men from now on." Humans are cogizant of their being, whereas animals aren't...humans apparently got so smart that they think they can changes the laws of nature, I guess...

[spork183]

LOL! Wikipedia?? You've GOT to be kidding! If not, you've my pity.

Popped over to Conservapedia, just to get the conservative take on Minority. Here's what I got.

There is no page titled "minority". You can create this page.

Unixfool, you clearly have your work cut out for you. Go forth and create. You can shape minority in the way that works best for you.

[bartelby]

You chose to be gay. I don't chose to be male and black, but I am. That was determined by genes, not the way I consider myself.

Of course not, but that's the way it is. It's like asking why dirt is black or brown...it is what it is. I didn't chose to be 'straight'. Did you choose to be crooked?


So is sexual orientation a choice or not?

[Blue Velvet]

Of course not, but that's the way it is. It's like asking why dirt is black or brown...it is what it is. I didn't chose to be 'straight'. Did you choose to be crooked?


Who said I was crooked? You know exactly what I mean, but yet you can not answer the question in a direct manner. That's OK.

[PlaceofDis]

LOL! Wikipedia?? You've GOT to be kidding! If not, you've my pity.

i don't see whats wrong with Wikipedia but fine. here (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/minority?view=uk)

[aquajet]

It's when children become more aware of the world that they start contemplating who they are and where they want to go.

Those sound like rather deep philosophical questions. At which age do children begin to ponder these questions? At which age do children make the conscious decision to be gay or straight?

IMO, being gay is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being a minority.

I don't understand how you could possibly come to this conclusion, but I guess it's par for the course for you considering your previous falacious statements. Conservative estimates place the percentage of gay people among the population at about two percent. That sounds like a minority group to me.

You chose to be gay. I don't chose to be male and black, but I am. That was determined by genes, not the way I consider myself.

Nobody fully understands the nature of homosexuality, but you certainly can't ignore the evidence that suggests genetics play a factor. Bailey and Pillard (http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html) show this. Additionally, there isevidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual#Physiological_differences_in_gay_men_and_lesbians) which suggests there are real physiological differences between gay and straight people. Doesn't seem like your assertion is holding up too well compared to the scientific evidence, now is it?

[spork183]

Animals don't have a gay category. They procreate to further their species. They don't consider, "hey, I think I like males better so I'll only be procreating with men from now on." Humans are cogizant of their being, whereas animals aren't...humans apparently got so smart that they think they can changes the laws of nature, I guess...

Actually, nature has quite a few examples of animals that go either way. I personally think the pot-bellied pig that repeatedly attempted to mount the stallion's leg last Christmas (you really had to be there...), would have been happy to have a gay category, but he was unable to articulate that desire other than through his actions.

I also don't think male animals consider, "hey, I think I like procreation, so I'll go nail some female now."

[skunk]

I didn't chose to be 'straight'.The clear implication of this statement is that sexual orientation is NOT a choice. Please make up your mind.
It's not that I'm ignorant in this. I actually don't WANT to know the inner nuances of being gay.You are ignorant, and you do not wish to know.
Animals don't have a gay category. They procreate to further their species. They don't consider, "hey, I think I like males better so I'll only be procreating with men from now on."Oh really? Explain this, then:Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior—entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates.

Wild birds exhibit similar behavior. There are male ostriches that only court their own gender, and pairs of male flamingos that mate, build nests, and even raise foster chicks.A quotation lifted from that hotbed of liberal perversions, the National Geographic.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

[Blue Velvet]

I'm getting déjà vu... why can't some learn some new songs? Voulez vu couchez avec moi? :D

[skunk]

I'm getting déjà vu... why can't some learn some new songs? Voulez vu couchez avec moi? :DAny time, schweetie. Your place or mine? :)

[Blue Velvet]

Any time, schweetie. Your place or mine? :)


Hey! Correcting my awful punnage de française. :mad: :D

No Kiwi pink for you. ;) :eek:

[skunk]

As you were... :o

[aquajet]

I certainly don't gay-bash or tell crude gay jokes because everyone is human, but I certainly don't think gayness warrants the attention that gays crave. Animals don't have a gay category. They procreate to further their species. They don't consider, "hey, I think I like males better so I'll only be procreating with men from now on." Humans are cogizant of their being, whereas animals aren't...humans apparently got so smart that they think they can changes the laws of nature, I guess...

Are you just pulling this stuff out of the air as you go?

Firstly, most gay people just want to go about their lives happily and with the same legal protections as everybody else. I have precisely zero interest in attracting attention towards my sexuality. But the folks that want to deny me and other gay people equal protection under the law make it difficult to not bring up the issue.

And secondly, how can you be so sure other animals besides humans don't have some level of cognizance? Read through some of the interviews (http://www.freecitymedia.com/KokoText.html) with Koko and tell me there isn't any awareness present.

[leekohler]

Of course not, but that's the way it is. It's like asking why dirt is black or brown...it is what it is. I didn't chose to be 'straight'. Did you choose to be crooked? I guess I have to be gay to truly understand. Keep in mind that there are gay bigots. It's not that I'm ignorant in this. I actually don't WANT to know the inner nuances of being gay. I certainly don't gay-bash or tell crude gay jokes because everyone is human, but I certainly don't think gayness warrants the attention that gays crave. Animals don't have a gay category. They procreate to further their species. They don't consider, "hey, I think I like males better so I'll only be procreating with men from now on." Humans are cogizant of their being, whereas animals aren't...humans apparently got so smart that they think they can changes the laws of nature, I guess...

Well, at least one part of you're screen name is right- You're definitely a fool.

To rossoUK- thanks for the clarification, I'm sorry we misunderstood you. You need to be more clear in the future though.

[atszyman]

Minorities??? Being gay isn't about race, color, or sex (true sex, man or woman). Being gay is a state of mind. Children are not born gay...children are children. It's when children become more aware of the world that they start contemplating who they are and where they want to go.

IMO, being gay is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being a minority. You chose to be gay. I don't chose to be male and black, but I am. That was determined by genes, not the way I consider myself.

So you think being gay doesn't fit your narrow definition of a minority. What difference does that make here?

Are you advocating that homosexuality is OK to discriminate against and treat differently? How about people of different religions? After all, your religion is your choice.

For the record I don't remember choosing to be straight and for the life of me I cannot figure out why someone would "choose" to be gay given the attitudes many still seem to have towards homosexuality. So I firmly believe it is not a choice.

[aquajet]

There's been far too much name-calling around here lately. Could we please not do that?

[unixfool]

Those sound like rather deep philosophical questions. At which age do children begin to ponder these questions? At which age do children make the conscious decision to be gay or straight?



I don't understand how you could possibly come to this conclusion, but I guess it's par for the course for you considering your previous falacious statements. Conservative estimates place the percentage of gay people among the population at about two percent. That sounds like a minority group to me.



Nobody fully understands the nature of homosexuality, but you certainly can't ignore the evidence that suggests genetics play a factor. Bailey and Pillard (http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html) show this. Additionally, there isevidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual#Physiological_differences_in_gay_men_and_lesbians) which suggests there are real physiological differences between gay and straight people. Doesn't seem like your assertion is holding up too well compared to the scientific evidence, now is it?

Scientific evidence? Where? A bunch of links to theoretics? And we all know that theories have been collapsed in the past. Theories aren't laws...they are just man's take on issues that aren't clear-cut.

I'm very solid in knowing who and what I am as a human being. My thoughts are mine...I'm sharing them but certainly realise that each person on this thread has their own thoughts and experiences.

My take is the fact that if I were gay and wished to hide that fact, I could. I can't hide being black or male. My oldest daughter is 8-yrs-old and does ask questions about sexuality from time to time...all children will. Based on what I tell her, she can then make her own determinations on life, not just sex. While I want her to be a free-thinker, I teach her that there are two and only two sexes: male and female. There is no mixure or gray area. I also plan to tell her, when she's a bit older, the 'birds and the bees'. I plan to tell her that only men and women can procreate, and that anything else is just going through the motions. If, one day, she choses to go into a closet and come back out as gay, I can honestly say that I'll still love her and know that I did my best on what I think is good parenting.

When a new blood type is discovered, then I'll start believing that being gay is hereditary and that people have no choice...I just don't see it. Reading internet facts about this isn't going to get me to change stance. I'm 39...been around for awhile. I'm not going to let some scientists determine what I think is wrong or right based on some theory that can't be proven.

[leekohler]

There's been far too much name-calling around here lately. Could we please not do that?

Guilty as charged! Sorry- I get defensive sometimes.

Scientific evidence? Where? A bunch of links to theoretics? And we all know that theories have been collapsed in the past. Theories aren't laws...they are just man's take on issues that aren't clear-cut.

I'm very solid in knowing who and what I am as a human being. My thoughts are mine...I'm sharing them but certainly realise that each person on this thread has their own thoughts and experiences.

My take is the fact that if I were gay and wished to hide that fact, I could. I can't hide being black or male. My oldest daughter is 8-yrs-old and does ask questions about sexuality from time to time...all children will. Based on what I tell her, she can then make her own determinations on life, not just sex. While I want her to be a free-thinker, I teach her that there are two and only two sexes: male and female. There is no mixure or gray area. I also plan to tell her, when she's a bit older, the 'birds and the bees'. I plan to tell her that only men and women can procreate, and that anything else is just going through the motions. If, one day, she choses to go into a closet and come back out as gay, I can honestly say that I'll still love her and know that I did my best on what I think is good parenting.

When a new blood type is discovered, then I'll start believing that being gay is hereditary and that people have no choice...I just don't see it. Reading internet facts about this isn't going to get me to change stance. I'm 39...been around for awhile. I'm not going to let some scientists determine what I think is wrong or right based on some theory that can't be proven.

You know what? I'm 40. What does age have to do with anything? You certainly don't write or reason like you're 39. I mean after all, is there an African American blood type? Give it a rest.

Oh- and facts are pesky things aren't they?

[Cassie]

This is seriously getting ridiculous. rossoUK clarified what he thought was funny, so now we can either agree or disagree with him, but this thread has turned into one giant argument.

Why don't we try something radically different this time: Stay on topic.


EDIT: Of course, I'm two posts too late. ;)

[spork183]

I plan to tell her that only men and women can procreate, and that anything else is just going through the motions. If, one day, she choses to go into a closet and come back out as gay, I can honestly say that I'll still love her and know that I did my best on what I think is good parenting.

Unixfool, you seem to be under the impression that procreation is the only reason to have sex. You also have some odd impressions about the effects of closets on sexuality.

That said, I think we could argue this all day and get nowhere. You are firm in your beliefs, and others are firm also. I see no point in continuing to disagree. I think the point of the thread was the gay guy got arrested for being punched.

Apologies to RussoUK for misunderstanding, to Cassie for getting off topic, and to Blue Velvet for my not understanding French...

[unixfool]

Are you advocating that homosexuality is OK to discriminate against and treat differently? How about people of different religions? After all, your religion is your choice.

Did you read me advocating discrimination? If so, show me where... If not, you have your answer.


For the record I don't remember choosing to be straight and for the life of me I cannot figure out why someone would "choose" to be gay given the attitudes many still seem to have towards homosexuality. So I firmly believe it is not a choice.

I don't remember chosing to be born but I was. Does that mean that my parents didn't decide and chose that they wanted a baby? At some point in time, you chose what your favorite color is, but do you remember what brought you to that point of chosing? Probably not. Experience shapes and molds people into a variety of flavors. It isn't the experience that dictates what you'll become, but the choices that are presented to you and how you choose.

[Cromulent]

Scientific evidence? Where? A bunch of links to theoretics? And we all know that theories have been collapsed in the past. Theories aren't laws...they are just man's take on issues that aren't clear-cut.

Of course. Theories are just that, but these theories are based on the latest scientific knowledge available at this time. I know that it will make little to no difference in your attitude but it is worth pointing out as they have not just been pulled out of thin air unlike certain other theories being expressed in this thread.

I'm very solid in knowing who and what I am as a human being. My thoughts are mine...I'm sharing them but certainly realise that each person on this thread has their own thoughts and experiences.

Very open minded of you.

My take is the fact that if I were gay and wished to hide that fact, I could. I can't hide being black or male. My oldest daughter is 8-yrs-old and does ask questions about sexuality from time to time...all children will. Based on what I tell her, she can then make her own determinations on life, not just sex. While I want her to be a free-thinker, I teach her that there are two and only two sexes: male and female. There is no mixure or gray area. I also plan to tell her, when she's a bit older, the 'birds and the bees'. I plan to tell her that only men and women can procreate, and that anything else is just going through the motions. If, one day, she choses to go into a closet and come back out as gay, I can honestly say that I'll still love her and know that I did my best on what I think is good parenting.

You are correct in saying that only a man and a woman can procreate naturally for obvious reasons. You do seem to miss the point that 99% of sexual relations though are carried out for pleasure and not with the aim of having children. This is true of straight relationships as well as gay relationships.

Procreating is not the primary reason to engage in sexual intercourse, something that you seem to have missed.

When a new blood type is discovered, then I'll start believing that being gay is hereditary and that people have no choice...I just don't see it. Reading internet facts about this isn't going to get me to change stance. I'm 39...been around for awhile. I'm not going to let some scientists determine what I think is wrong or right based on some theory that can't be proven.

What does blood type have to do with anything? That statement alone shows how woefully ignorant you are of basic human biology.

[unixfool]

Guilty as charged! Sorry- I get defensive sometimes.



You know what? I'm 40. What does age have to do with anything? You certainly don't write or reason like you're 39. I mean after all, is there an African American blood type? Give it a rest.

Oh- and facts are pesky things aren't they?

Guilty? Of what?

Age has everything to do with knowing who you are and how you perceive things. The reason you don't think I write or reason like I'm 39 is because you probably have a chip on your shoulder regarding something you hold dear that I don't accept.

The reason I mentioned blood types is the fact that there is only A, B, and O bloodtypes. It is very definitive. There are no other types. Imagine if someone said there was theoretically another type and pushed for change yet had no real evidence.

Regarding your facts comment, facts and figures can be manipulated, especially if there's no positive proof behind the facts. Yeah, I agree, they're pesty...when they're not proven.

You are correct in saying that only a man and a woman can procreate naturally for obvious reasons. You do seem to miss the point that 99% of sexual relations though are carried out for pleasure and not with the aim of having children. This is true of straight relationships as well as gay relationships.

Procreating is not the primary reason to engage in sexual intercourse, something that you seem to have missed.

My girl doesn't need to know anything about pleasure at this point (and even a few years out) and when she does, I'll let the wife take over from there. I'm speaking strictly about biology at this point in time.



What does blood type have to do with anything? That statement alone shows how woefully ignorant you are of basic human biology.

Read my prior post. And read my whole posts within the context that they're in...it helps in comprehension.

[atszyman]

Did you read me advocating discrimination? If so, show me where... If not, you have your answer.

No you did not advocate discrimination, but the tone of your answer, vehemently denying that homosexuals are in a minority could be misunderstood. The current discrimination against homosexuals parallels the discrimination against many minorities, currently and in the past. By denying them any sort of minority status could easily be construed as an endorsement of discrimination against them.


I don't remember chosing to be born but I was. Does that mean that my parents didn't decide and chose that they wanted a baby?

Your parents chose to conceive, or at least conjugate, procreation may or may not have been the desired goal at the time (but you had no input into that decision since you did not exist at that point). Being born (once conceived) is not a choice, it is a biological function that takes over and gets the baby out after about 37-40 weeks in most cases. There is no choice of keeping the baby in the womb. Being conceived is not a choice you get to make, unless we're going to start granting sentience to sperm and/or egg cells.



At some point in time, you chose what your favorite color is, but do you remember what brought you to that point of chosing? Probably not. Experience shapes and molds people into a variety of flavors. It isn't the experience that dictates what you'll become, but the choices that are presented to you and how you choose.

I actually frequently change my favorite color, and I do remember making conscious decisions regarding that throughout my youth. I change my mind often when new information is produced. I don't ever remember choosing which gender arouses me and don't think I could change that no matter how much effort I put into it, and I am one stubborn SOB, ask my wife.:)

[Blue Velvet]

Head in the sand. First, there's no gay animals... then when the evidence is shown, conveniently ignored.

Then, a provocative assertion that things are a choice, with nothing to back that claim up except a perception, a belief... I suggest that the real facts are an inconvenience to others who like to mask their bigotry by claiming all things are relative.

Never mind... we all have things to learn.

[leekohler]

Guilty? Of what?

Guilty of calling you a fool.

Age has everything to do with knowing who you are and how you perceive things. The reason you don't think I write or reason like I'm 39 is because you probably have a chip on your shoulder regarding something you hold dear that I don't accept.

You're damn right I've got a chip on my shoulder. I'm tired of being insulted by your ignorance regarding people like me.

[Mac-Addict]

Whats with all the homophobes on MacRumors? do people not realise gay people don't have the choice to be gay, thats how they are just the same as if someone was ginger. Does that mean that we should punch 10% of the worlds population (660,222,418 people) for being different?

[aquajet]

Scientific evidence? Where? A bunch of links to theoretics? And we all know that theories have been collapsed in the past. Theories aren't laws...they are just man's take on issues that aren't clear-cut.

I guess you don't know what scientific evidence actually is, then. If you clicked the link, then it was right there, on your screen.

And who said anything about laws? It is evidence of a correlation. This was specifically stated. No hard and fast conclusions were made.

My oldest daughter is 8-yrs-old and does ask questions about sexuality from time to time...all children will. Based on what I tell her, she can then make her own determinations on life, not just sex. While I want her to be a free-thinker, I teach her that there are two and only two sexes: male and female. There is no mixure or gray area. I also plan to tell her, when she's a bit older, the 'birds and the bees'. I plan to tell her that only men and women can procreate, and that anything else is just going through the motions. If, one day, she choses to go into a closet and come back out as gay, I can honestly say that I'll still love her and know that I did my best on what I think is good parenting.

I think these are admirable views and I wish more people would be more open to allowing their children their own world views.

When a new blood type is discovered, then I'll start believing that being gay is hereditary and that people have no choice...I just don't see it. Reading internet facts about this isn't going to get me to change stance. I'm 39...been around for awhile. I'm not going to let some scientists determine what I think is wrong or right based on some theory that can't be proven.

Well firstly, there's no evidence that I'm aware of that suggests blood type is involved. I suspect you are confused over the issues. And secondly, these aren't merely "internet facts". These are published studies by real scientists. If you've a beef with the validity and methodology of these studies, I'd be more than happy to consider your concerns.

[JW8725]

To rossoUK- thanks for the clarification, I'm sorry we misunderstood you. You need to be more clear in the future though.

No worries mate, have a good monday! :)

[leekohler]

No worries mate, have a good monday! :)

You too! :)

[Mac-Addict]

I think these are admirable views and I wish more people would be more open to allowing their children their own world views.

Hell yeah me too! I am scared as crap to tell my parents because they are from an older generation that didn't understand as much as today's parents do (My parents where both born 1955).

[aquajet]

...this thread has turned into one giant argument.

It wouldn't be the PRSI if some quarreling and bickering weren't involved. :)

[skunk]

Hell yeah me too! I am scared as crap to tell my parents because they are from an older generation that didn't understand as much as today's parents do (My parents where both born 1955).Couple of young whippersnappers, then. :rolleyes:

[spork183]

Hell yeah me too! I am scared as crap to tell my parents because they are from an older generation that didn't understand as much as today's parents do (My parents where both born 1955).

Bite the bullet and tell them. It may be rough in the short term, but you get it off your chest and out in the open. You're still their child. Maybe they'll surprise you. Only one way to find out.

[atszyman]

\Stay on topic.


It wouldn't be the PRSI if some quarreling and bickering weren't involved. :)

The life of a PRSI thread is as follows

1: initial post
2: (optional) on topic debate
3: take issue with someone else's post (possibly due to misreading) and start a tangential debate that has little to do with the original topic.
4: (optional) on topic debate
5: pun off
6: (optional) resurrection, return to step 2.

[aquajet]

Hell yeah me too! I am scared as crap to tell my parents because they are from an older generation that didn't understand as much as today's parents do (My parents where both born 1955).

Many of us are/were afraid to tell our parents, so you're certainly not alone. :)

Have your parents ever said anything specifically anti-gay? Or are you worried simply because they're older?

[Mac-Addict]

Couple of young whippersnappers, then. :rolleyes:

Not quite.. my dad is so scared he will have a heart attack I have to go on rollercoasters on my larry.

Bite the bullet and tell them. It may be rough in the short term, but you get it off your chest and out in the open. You're still their child. Maybe they'll surprise you. Only one way to find out.
I'd rather not right now.. I'm only 13 and as I see it theres no reason to tell them. They will find out when I have moved out so they can't do anything that will affect me :)
Yes I am a coward :D.

Many of us are/were afraid to tell our parents, so you're certainly not alone. :)

Have your parents ever said anything specifically anti-gay? Or are you worried simply because they're older?
Err hell yeah not so much my mum but definitely with my dad, when ever Graham Norton comes on he says something along the lines of "****ing queer fairy, they should be shot, all of them!" and changes the channel.

Anyway back on topic...

[aquajet]

The life of a PRSI thread is as follows

1: initial post
2: (optional) on topic debate
3: take issue with someone else's post (possibly due to misreading) and start a tangential debate that has little to do with the original topic.
4: (optional) on topic debate
5: pun off
6: (optional) resurrection, return to step 2.

It can get a bit heated in here at times. Think I'll dump some spirits into my punch to relax a bit.

[spork183]

Not quite.. my dad is so scared he will have a heart attack I have to go on rollercoasters on my larry.


I'd rather not right now.. I'm only 13 and as I see it theres no reason to tell them. They will find out when I have moved out so they can't do anything that will affect me :)
Yes I am a coward :D.



Cowardice, no. Practicality, yes. Their house, their rules. Don't say a word.

[aquajet]

Err hell yeah not so much my mum but definitely with my dad, when ever Graham Norton comes on he says something along the lines of "****ing queer fairy, they should be shot, all of them!" and changes the channel.

Yeah, that's a drag to say the least. What's your mum's reaction when your father says asinine things like that?

[Mac-Addict]

Yeah, that's a drag to say the least. What's your mum's reaction when your father says asinine things like that?

She just kinda ignores it because she knows my sister has gay mates and she doesn't want to start an arguement with my sister.

[leekohler]

I'd rather not right now.. I'm only 13 and as I see it theres no reason to tell them. They will find out when I have moved out so they can't do anything that will affect me :)
Yes I am a coward :D.


Err hell yeah not so much my mum but definitely with my dad, when ever Graham Norton comes on he says something along the lines of "****ing queer fairy, they should be shot, all of them!" and changes the channel.

Anyway back on topic...

Oh man, this is exactly why people's bad attitudes bug me- they forget that kids are hearing what they say.

Sorry about the situation with your dad. I think you're wise to wait to say anything. They really don't need to know til later anyway. Get yourself through school and such before you tell them. And keep your friends very close when you do. You'll need them to lend an ear.

[Swarmlord]

How many journalists killed in Russia over the past few years? There's a bunch of thugs in charge.

When hasn't there been in Russia?

[aquajet]

She just kinda ignores it because she knows my sister has gay mates and she doesn't want to start an arguement with my sister.

I agree with Lee -- wait it out a few years. When you decide to tell somebody in your family, it sounds like your mum would be the most understanding, so I would start with her. That's what I did. Both her sister and brother are gay as well. I eventually told my father and thankfully, he didn't care. And to think only a few years prior, he basically thought gay men were disgusting...

[solvs]

When a new blood type is discovered, then I'll start believing that being gay is hereditary and that people have no choice...I just don't see it.
What does blood type have to do with anything? It is possible that they've found a "gay gene" or stand, but that's completely different than blood type. And what does any of that have to do with psychology or physiology? Heredity is just a small possibility, and even if that gets disproved, still doesn't make it a choice.

You're pretty much all over the place there, mixing a whole lot of stuff up.

Reading internet facts about this isn't going to get me to change stance. I'm 39...been around for awhile. I'm not going to let some scientists determine what I think is wrong or right based on some theory that can't be proven.
Well, that's how it works here. You back up what you say with proof. Believe what you want, but if you're going to make an argument, you need something to back it up. You don't have that. We've proved you wrong, you refuse to accept it because you don't want to read and call what you don't understand theories.

Here's a fact for you. People are gay. Doesn't matter why. They are. None of our business. Ask any of them if they can choose, and they will say they can't. There's your proof. I can't change being straight no more than you could. You are wrong, and every time anyone comes in here spouting the same nonsense, they will be proven wrong too. If you can't accept that, can't accept our links, can't provide any valid ones of your own, then you aren't playing by the rules, and you won't last very long here.

Sorry, but I'm getting kinda tired of people repeatedly coming in here to thread crap with things we continually prove wrong, just so they can post the same incorrect things over and over again.

[Queso]

Not quite.. my dad is so scared he will have a heart attack I have to go on rollercoasters on my larry.

I'd rather not right now.. I'm only 13 and as I see it theres no reason to tell them. They will find out when I have moved out so they can't do anything that will affect me :)
Yes I am a coward :D.

Err hell yeah not so much my mum but definitely with my dad, when ever Graham Norton comes on he says something along the lines of "****ing queer fairy, they should be shot, all of them!" and changes the channel.
Sounds to me like your mother knows already. Why would she otherwise make a point of stating her displeasure about the situation? My advice would be to plant the seeds now but confirm nothing until you're in a position to.

And as for unixfool, I have to say it's a shame there are people like you on the planet. However, personally I'm content with the fact that you and your kind are a dying breed. The Russians will accept gay rights eventually just like all societies do in the end, so you go live in bitterness all you like, it won't change a damn thing.

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