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gopher
Jun 29, 2003, 09:34 AM
After reading Apple's technote, it would appear the G5 can be upgraded to 16 GB of RAM. Since this contradicts Apple's specs, I wrote the developer site contact link to ask that a revision be made:

Technote's http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2087.html
bottom line of the G4 G5 comparison table says the G5 can address 16 GB of RAM.
Yet http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html says it can only address 8 GB of RAM.

Websites like this one:

http://www.pricewatch.com/1/33/5550-1.htm
show that 2 GB memory modules exist that meet the specs of the machine, and with 8 slots,
you'd think the G5 could possibly be taken up to 16 GB. Is the 8 GB limitation hardware or software?
And if hardware is it only because you don't yet sell the 2 GB memory modules, or is it because the controller itself
can't address more? If the controller itself can't address more, I think the technote:
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn2087.html

should be revised to say only 8 GB of addressable RAM.

Veldek
Jun 29, 2003, 09:56 AM
Wow, this would be great. Hope, this isn't a typo...

benixau
Jun 29, 2003, 10:02 AM
software - most likely

a few possibilities:

Apple firmware stops above 8GB (like in MDDs -> can actually take 4GB, apple stops above 2GB)

apple will not advertise this as they do not sell 2GB modules. apple has not stopped them wirking though.

Hardware will not recognise the modules (dual side, not an accepted bit size)

->you decide what it is.

GeeYouEye
Jun 29, 2003, 11:28 AM
I'd put more faith in the maximum you see anywhere than anything less; the rev. A iBook had a "maximum" of 160 MB, but I've got one with 288, and I've seen them with up to 544.

Besides, who really needs more than 8 GB, anyway?

gopher
Jun 29, 2003, 12:24 PM
I'd like to put a full 2 hours of DV Video in RAM and then convert it to MPEG2. Actually I'd need about 30 GB of RAM to do that. Sure I can do that with hard drives, but why not do it with the speed of RAM?

zarathustra
Jun 29, 2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by GeeYouEye
I'd put more faith in the maximum you see anywhere than anything less; the rev. A iBook had a "maximum" of 160 MB, but I've got one with 288, and I've seen them with up to 544.

Besides, who really needs more than 8 GB, anyway?

The same people who upgraded to 8MB of RAM and 40MB of HD space thinking, they will never need more... ;)

tpjunkie
Jun 29, 2003, 12:42 PM
However, at $1,100 per 2 gb chip, maxing out your RAM to 16 GB would cost 8,800...nearly three times the cost of the dual 2 ghz machine...I don't think its going to really be an issue for the majority of users.

gopher
Jun 29, 2003, 12:43 PM
True, but down the road, memory will get cheaper.

utilizer
Jun 29, 2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by tpjunkie
However, at $1,100 per 2 gb chip, maxing out your RAM to 16 GB would cost 8,800...nearly three times the cost of the dual 2 ghz machine...I don't think its going to really be an issue for the majority of users.

From the best in the industry in RAM, here's to maxing out a new G5:

CRUCIAL TECHNOLOGY RAM -- 8 GB of memory
CT322476
512MB, 184-pin DIMM Upgrade for a Apple Power Mac G5 (Dual 2.0GHz DDR) System
$93.99 each
QTY: 16
$1,503.98

Sun Baked
Jun 29, 2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by utilizer
From the best in the industry in RAM, here's to maxing out a new G5:

CRUCIAL TECHNOLOGY RAM -- 8 GB of memory
CT322476
512MB, 184-pin DIMM Upgrade for a Apple Power Mac G5 (Dual 2.0GHz DDR) System
$93.99 each
QTY: 16
$1,503.98 And you'd leave 8 of them sitting on the bench, try again.

There are only 8 dimm slots.

Look up the price on eight 1GB DDR400 modules ;)

---

As far as what the module needs/limits are, we'll have to wait for Apple to put up the developer docs on the machine.

No telling what the U3 Memory Controller is capable of for this revision.

But don't expect to see a G5 info here until weeks after the machine ships...

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/hardware2.html

daveg5
Jun 29, 2003, 03:18 PM
same thing happen with thepowermacs powerbooks ibooks imacs etc.
apple list the max avail at that time.
which almostr alwayus ends up higher however i do think the bw and biege g3 have a hardware memory controller that simply cant go past 1 gb regardless of sixe or config, or quanity of memory chips on board stacked or not

rainman::|:|
Jun 29, 2003, 03:38 PM
From Apple.com/G5
Theoretically, the 64-bit data paths let the Power PC G5 access up to 4 terabytes of physical memory. Impractical now, maybe, but the Power PC G5 architecture allows for plenty of growth well into the future.

So it looks like there's plenty of room to grow, but Apple thinks 8 GB is enough for now, so they went with the cheapest hardware configuration that supports this much...

pnw

bbarnhart
Jun 29, 2003, 09:52 PM
There are lots and lots of things you can do with more that 8 GB of memory. With that much memory you save time consuming trips to the hard drive. Video on demand is an application that would benefit. Large database applications would benefit.

Yes, it would be cheaper to build out more machines with less memory, but you need to factor in the cost of maintenance for all of these machines.

Granted, all of these are high end server type applications and that is what business need. Windows OS taxes (licensing fees) are quite steep on high end systems. If you can do more with less licenses then business will buy the RAM.

beatle888
Jun 29, 2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by GeeYouEye
Besides, who really needs more than 8 GB, anyway?

youve been around macrumors too long to not be able to answer that yourself.

shadowfax
Jun 29, 2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by paulwhannel
So it looks like there's plenty of room to grow, but Apple thinks 8 GB is enough for now, so they went with the cheapest hardware configuration that supports this much... that sounds like dell more than apple. i wouldn't be surprised if these 2 GB modules worked in the new PMG5s. apple does cool stuff like that sometimes. speaking of which, does anyone know about putting 1 GB SO-DIMMs in a Tibook when they come out, if they haven't?

smada
Jun 29, 2003, 10:39 PM
Id say it's quite possible that a G5 could handle 16 GB, and maybe even more if bigger DDR chips are made.

According to Apple.com, my iMac can only handle 512 MB of memory, but as you can see, that just isn't true.

Sun Baked
Jun 29, 2003, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by smada
Id say it's quite possible that a G5 could handle 16 GB, and maybe even more if bigger DDR chips are made.

According to Apple.com, my iMac can only handle 512 MB of memory, but as you can see, that just isn't true. According to the Apple Developer docs, the G3 iMac can handle up to 1GB of memory. (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G3/iMac18Jul01/1Introduction/New_Features.html)

These are the documents to look at instead of the insert with the computer.

The link I left at in a previous post is for ALL the macs, but they usually lag product shipment by a few weeks or a couple months.

Frohickey
Jun 29, 2003, 11:00 PM
Crucial (http://www.crucial.com/store/listmodule.asp?module=DDR+PC3200&Attrib=Package&cat=RAM) has 128MB, 256MB and 512MB PC3200 RAM. $25.99, $49.99, $93.99 (weird, the 128MB ECC is cheaper than the non-ECC)

The Chip Merchant (http://www.thechipmerchant.com/memory-pc-desktop-memory-dimms-ddr.html) has 256MB and 512MB PC3200 RAM. $45.50, $89.25 (cheaper than Crucial).
But they (http://www.thechipmerchant.com/memory-apple-memory-g5.html) also sell Apple(whatever that is, Apple uses standard DIMMs!) memory. 2x256MB and 2x512MB. 2x$48.50, 2x$95.25. Why the price hike for memory? :mad: :mad: :mad:

To get to 8GB, you need 1GB sticks, which neither one sells.

shadowfax
Jun 29, 2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Frohickey
Crucial (http://www.crucial.com/store/listmodule.asp?module=DDR+PC3200&Attrib=Package&cat=RAM) has 128MB, 256MB and 512MB PC3200 RAM. $25.99, $49.99, $93.99 (weird, the 128MB ECC is cheaper than the non-ECC)

The Chip Merchant (http://www.thechipmerchant.com/memory-pc-desktop-memory-dimms-ddr.html) has 256MB and 512MB PC3200 RAM. $45.50, $89.25 (cheaper than Crucial).
But they (http://www.thechipmerchant.com/memory-apple-memory-g5.html) also sell Apple(whatever that is, Apple uses standard DIMMs!) memory. 2x256MB and 2x512MB. 2x$48.50, 2x$95.25. Why the price hike for memory? :mad: :mad: :mad:

To get to 8GB, you need 1GB sticks, which neither one sells.

what did you say? (http://www.crucial.com/store/PartSpecs.asp?imodule=CT12864X265&cat=RAM)

better look harder next time ;)

also, apple RAM has always been more expensive. i dunno why, probably the classic "we use better quality products, even though a lot of idiots with hardware problems on their PCs don't think so."

patrick0brien
Jun 29, 2003, 11:05 PM
-Folks

Remember, Apple can only advertise the maximum that is available in DIMMs being sold.

I have a 12PB, and Apple advertises it at maximum 640GB. But that's inly true due to the fact that 512mb SODIMMs are the only one really available in any volume. Once the 1gb SODIMMs get a good volume, Apple will revise.

I'm sure there's something similar going on here with the G5.

shadowfax
Jun 29, 2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by patrick0brien
I have a 12PB, and Apple advertises it at maximum 640GB. But that's inly true due to the fact that 512mb SODIMMs are the only one really available in any volume. Once the 1gb SODIMMs get a good volume, Apple will revise.

I'm sure there's something similar going on here with the G5. i know i will get fooled into putting at least 1.5, if not 2 GB into my Tibook when they become available :D

e-coli
Jun 29, 2003, 11:21 PM
16 GB is insanity. Maybe only for doing 3D work, but still. You'd have to be working on the sequel to Pearl Harbor or something to need that much.

(If, by chance, you are working on the sequel to pearl harbor, please make it better than the first. ;) )

utilizer
Jun 29, 2003, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Shadowfax
what did you say? (http://www.crucial.com/store/PartSpecs.asp?imodule=CT12864X265&cat=RAM)

better look harder next time ;)

also, apple RAM has always been more expensive. i dunno why, probably the classic "we use better quality products, even though a lot of idiots with hardware problems on their PCs don't think so."

Sorry shadow, but the G5 uses 184-pin DDR RAM, not 200-pin RAM, so I assume they're just not available yet in the 1 Gig config yet. Besides, Crucial would tell you if one was available when you put in the PowerMac G5, which it doesn't. I was wrong earlier when I said something about 16 banks of memory only costs $1504 from those guys, but the G5 only has 8 banks; again, they don't list DDR400 184-pin 1 GB chipsets...yet. Time will tell.

shadowfax
Jun 29, 2003, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by utilizer
Sorry shadow, but the G5 uses 184-pin DDR RAM, not 200-pin RAM, so I assume they're just not available yet in the 1 Gig config yet. Besides, Crucial would tell you if one was available when you put in the PowerMac G5, which it doesn't. I was wrong earlier when I said something about 16 banks of memory only costs $1504 from those guys, but the G5 only has 8 banks; again, they don't list DDR400 184-pin 1 GB chipsets...yet. Time will tell. ah, my bad. but Apple will sell you the full 8 GB of RAM when the time comes, with the DDR400 184 pin modules. and there will be 2 GB modules with time. it's just the way things go.... progress...

Frohickey
Jun 30, 2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by Shadowfax
what did you say? (http://www.crucial.com/store/PartSpecs.asp?imodule=CT12864X265&cat=RAM)

better look harder next time ;)

also, apple RAM has always been more expensive. i dunno why, probably the classic "we use better quality products, even though a lot of idiots with hardware problems on their PCs don't think so."

Um... you need to clean your glasses. Thats a 200pin SODimm module. Though, there is a PC2100 184pin DDR DIMM in a 2GB size. (I feel like Ahnuld... go to a store, I want a PC3200 DDR DIMM in a 2GB size, and a phased plasma rifle in 40W range. :)

G5s use PC2700 (333MHz) and PC3200 (400MHz).

shadowfax
Jun 30, 2003, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Frohickey
Um... you need to clean your glasses. Thats a 200pin SODimm module. Though, there is a PC2100 184pin DDR DIMM in a 2GB size. (I feel like Ahnuld... go to a store, I want a PC3200 DDR DIMM in a 2GB size, and a phased plasma rifle in 40W range. :)

G5s use PC2700 (333MHz) and PC3200 (400MHz). thanks for setting me straight, but someone had already done so. i wasn't implying that they sold PC2700 or 3200 1 GB sticks, you just said, plain as day, that they didn't sell 1 GB sticks, which they do, both the cited SODIMMS i linked and PC133 RAM... i was just playing around. i definitely don't need glasses. i can read, and you did say they didn't sell 1 GB sticks, and they do. just not PC2700 or 3200.

smada
Jun 30, 2003, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Sun Baked
According to the Apple Developer docs, the G3 iMac can handle up to 1GB of memory. (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G3/iMac18Jul01/1Introduction/New_Features.html)

These are the documents to look at instead of the insert with the computer.

The link I left at in a previous post is for ALL the macs, but they usually lag product shipment by a few weeks or a couple months.

I was referring to the apple support web site, seen here. (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=43099) I never new about these developer docs, though.

Mr. Anderson
Jun 30, 2003, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by e-coli
16 GB is insanity. Maybe only for doing 3D work, but still. You'd have to be working on the sequel to Pearl Harbor or something to need that much.


One thing you'll need to remember - there is always someone who will find a need for more of anything - sure 16 GB is a large amount of memory - but what if solid state drives get a lot cheaper and you end up with with a machine the blurs the line between memory and disk space....where the effective memory is only limited to your harddrive....

D

makkystyle
Jun 30, 2003, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by smada
Id say it's quite possible that a G5 could handle 16 GB, and maybe even more if bigger DDR chips are made.

According to Apple.com, my iMac can only handle 512 MB of memory, but as you can see, that just isn't true. edit: with attached pic of "About this mac" with 1024MB RAM

Just out of curiosity, because I really have no idea myself, is it possible that the OS can recognize that there is 1024MB of RAM but half of this is actually not being utilized? I only ask just because I can't understand why Apple would say that there is a max when it can really go higher.

patrick0brien
Jun 30, 2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by makkystyle
...I can't understand why Apple would say that there is a max when it can really go higher.

-makkystyle

Because if Apple said the max was actually higher than the current capacity of the DIMMs available, that would legally be false advertising.

To say that a machines Max is 2gb when the DIMMs available could only get it to 1gb is technically misrepresentation due to current states of technology.

Stupid, but true.

They can however whisper about 'theoretical ceilings'.

smada
Jun 30, 2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by makkystyle
is it possible that the OS can recognize that there is 1024MB of RAM but half of this is actually not being utilized?

I suppose it's possible, but not the case here. I noticed a huge increase in performance while doing memory intensive tasks when I jumped from 512 MB to 1024 MB.

As others have mentioned before, Apple cannot list the max ram capacity to be greater than what is available at the time. And they don't update the support documents containing machine specifications when larger capacity ram chips are made.

rice_web
Jun 30, 2003, 12:19 PM
Well, what video editing professional couldn't use 16GB of memory? What massive Lightwave project wouldn't benefit?

Could you imagine a cluster of XServes (an updated one, using 970s of course), each using 16GB of memory? That'd be insane! Server farms could process so much more data with the hard drive out of the equation, allowing immensely quick rendering times.

Now we only need 4GB DIMMs.

shadowfax
Jun 30, 2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by smada
I suppose it's possible, but not the case here. I noticed a huge increase in performance while doing memory intensive tasks when I jumped from 512 MB to 1024 MB. it's not possible. your system is what allocates RAM. if it can recognize and address it, it can give it to the applications.

an easy way to test is to run top from terminal. you can see all your ram usage stats.

D*I*S_Frontman
Jun 30, 2003, 12:51 PM
Do we know the "theoretical" max for the new G5s? If Crucial came out with an 184-pin 8 GB DDR400 module, could the system actually address 64 GB RAM?

I have a Pismo running 1GB RAM (max 512MB according to specs). Two slots. What is my new "theoretic" max? 2 GB now? Heck, I may only need my HD during start-up...!

gopher
Jul 1, 2003, 04:50 PM
I just got a reply from Apple's developer technotes author and they tell me the specs are correct and the 8 GB is just marketing! Which means, 16 GB is indeed the maximum the desktop can take! Apple simply hasn't qualified a 2 GB RAM chip for their systems, still there is no controller limit saying it can't go beyond 8 GB. So if anyone has $8000 to spare, it should be interesting to see if the 2 GB module works. Know any millionaires who wouldn't care spending that kind of money to see if something works? :D

illumin8
Jul 1, 2003, 09:58 PM
I think you ought to check out Pricewatch for buying your memory DIMMs. You'll find they have much better prices and the 2GB and 1GB modules are actually for sale right now:

2GB PC3200 (DDR400) - $1099.00 (http://www.pricewatch.com/1/33/5550-1.htm)

1GB PC3200 (DDR400) - $165 (http://www.pricewatch.com/1/33/5025-1.htm)

Just make sure you're not buying a "kit" of 2x 512MB DIMMs. They like to trick you into buying a kit of 2 cheaper DIMMs because it looks less expensive... If you want 1GB, you better buy 1GB, just buy two of them... :D

Sun Baked
Jul 1, 2003, 10:08 PM
illumin8

The 2GB modules will probably not work, if Apple isn't supporting Reg, ECC, etc.

This memory says...Price for PHONE ORDER PRICE, mention Price Watch --2048 MB (1 DIMM) PC3200 DDR 400 SDRAM REG ECCWait until Apple releases the specs for the memory on the new machines, you should see it show up somewhere

NOTE - THIS IS FOR THE G4
DIMM Specifications

The RAM expansion slots accept 184-pin DDR SDRAM DIMMs that are 2.5 volt, unbuffered, 8-byte, nonparity, and DDR226-compliant (PC2100) or DDR333-compliant (PC2700).

Important

DDR200 (PC1600) or slower DIMMs do not work in the PowerMac G4 computer.

Important

DIMMs with any of the following features are not supported in the PowerMac G4 computer: registers or buffers, PLLs, ECC, parity, or EDO RAM.

Frohickey
Jul 2, 2003, 12:40 AM
Macs tries to use standard commodity DRAM. The registered ECC DRAM are not standard commodity. You end up paying a little premium over unbuffered non-ECC DRAM

I guess they learned their lesson from the Quadra days when things were 72pin SIMMs or some such weird beast.

MacRAND
Jul 2, 2003, 02:42 AM
Apple G5 $2,999.00
Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5
512MB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x256MB
Expandable to 8GB SDRAM
1GHz frontside bus

Apple $750 upgrade for 2x 1-GHz chips is better deal than www.4allmemory.com @ $500 each = $1,000 total

Can anyone find a better deal than what Apple offers as a 2 GHz RAM upgrade for $750?

job
Jul 2, 2003, 02:52 AM
this is a slight tangent but that pic with the slotloading imac with more than 512MB RAM got me wondering.

i have the exact same machine with 2*256MB RAM. could i stick a 512MB DIMM in? does it have to be PC100 or could it be PC133?

illumin8
Jul 2, 2003, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by MacRAND
Can anyone find a better deal than what Apple offers as a 2 GHz RAM upgrade for $750?
I started looking around because this post got me interested, and I just realized that I cannot find a 1GB PC3200 DIMM anywhere online for some reason. Everywhere that sells 1GB of memory is actually selling you a kit of 2x 512MB DIMMs.

I will tell you that I bought some great PC3200 memory for my Dell computer (it uses PC3200 memory in pairs, just like the new G5s).

I bought it at Newegg (http://www.newegg.com), which is a great online reseller. This memory has been working great for me and it's really inexpensive.

I bought 2x 512MB sticks, for $73.00 each stick. If you want to buy the same memory, which should work great in a G5, go to the site and search for "geil", the manufacturer, or the model number of the memory is GL512PC3200B. This memory is CAS 2.5 (in case you're interested), and comes with a built-in heat spreader.

I think right now the sweet spot for PC3200 is 512MB sticks. You'll still be able to fit 4GB of memory in your G5, and you won't have to break the bank to do it. It should only cost you $584 to get a full 4GB.

MacRAND
Jul 2, 2003, 03:57 AM
1GHz chips are available online from www.4allmemory.com
@ $499.99 each ($999 for 2) making 2x1GB chips for $750 as an Apple upgrade the better deal!
http://www.4allmemory.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.ddr_memory_desktop

PC400 / PC3200 DDR

Memory Module Part Number__Retail__Save__Price
128MB DDR400, PC3200 80095 $ 61.06 $ 6.11 $ 54.95 (yes, same as 256)
256MB DDR400, PC3200 80395 $ 61.06 $ 6.11 $ 54.95 (same as 128)
512MB DDR400, PC3200 80639 $105.50 $10.55 $ 94.95
1.0 GB DDR400 PC3200 80039 $555.50 $55.55 $499.99

projectParanoia
Jul 2, 2003, 05:38 AM
NOTE - THIS IS FOR THE G4
DIMM Specifications

The RAM expansion slots accept 184-pin DDR SDRAM DIMMs that are 2.5 volt, unbuffered, 8-byte, nonparity, and DDR226-compliant (PC2100) or DDR333-compliant (PC2700).

Important

DDR200 (PC1600) or slower DIMMs do not work in the PowerMac G4 computer.

Important

DIMMs with any of the following features are not supported in the PowerMac G4 computer: registers or buffers, PLLs, ECC, parity, or EDO RAM.

Uh... um...

Can someone explain all this PLLs ECC parity buffered EDO stuff? Or a link is fine too.

Wyrm
Jul 2, 2003, 07:29 AM
As far as maximum addressing, the JEDEC 184 pin DIMM standard has 13 bits of column by row for 536,870,912 bytes in 8 byte blocks (2^26 * 8 or 2^29 bytes per bank). With 2 bits for banks, that allows a maximum of 2,147,483,648 bytes or exactly 2GB per device. I think that's the max? Which would mean without using a different memory type the memory max for the G5, ever, would be 16GB (drool) - as long as your power doesn't give out.

The power requirements of the memory might drain the life out of the computer first. The only power specs for the G5 I could find were max amp for a voltage rating: say 100 - 120 @ 6.5 amps. That's 650 - 780 intake watts, assuming about 60% efficiency (a consumer average) that's a 390- 468 watt power supply. Ok, a little beefy, but that's to be expected.

I can't find specs (I'm lazy) for the current DDR400 modules, but "Infineon now makes a 2GB DDR module. It requires 8.1 Amps @ DDR266" (http://www.overclockers.com/articles696/) - so a guesstimate would be 8.1*8 = ~65 amps or about 150 watts of real power (at 2.2V). DDR 400 will be more of course (25-50% more).

So subtract about 200 for memory and the 50 or so watts on each CPU, 9 fans, control chips, HDD and you are quickly running out of available power.... hey doesn't the ADC connector provide power? That could be 70 watts right there! :eek:
Maybe that's why they didn't put a second optical drive or more hard-disks - we'd need another 100 or so watts on the power supply pumping up the amps - and don't U.S. breakers trip at 10amps? We'd all need to stick a copper penny in the breaker just to run a G5. :D

-Wyrm

jayscheuerle
Jul 2, 2003, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by e-coli
16 GB is insanity. Maybe only for doing 3D work, but still. You'd have to be working on the sequel to Pearl Harbor or something to need that much.

(If, by chance, you are working on the sequel to pearl harbor, please make it better than the first. ;) )

It's all in anticipation of fast user switching. You'll be able to have a dozen users with a dozen apps apiece open, each doing an intensive rendering with Folding & SETI going on in your background's backgrounds.

With RAM memory this size, hard-drives almost become secondary back-ups.

You could work on a billboard @ 300 dpi in Photoshop and not be slowed down!

I'll max out my wallet before my machine...

iEric
Jul 2, 2003, 10:13 AM
thats pretty cool ,but who in the right mind would buy 16 GB of ram. (I'm talking about consumers, not business or movie creators, ect.)

I think 3 gb of ram, max, for consumers should be good enough..

ftaok
Jul 2, 2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by MacRAND
1GHz chips are available online from www.4allmemory.com
@ $499.99 each ($999 for 2) making 2x1GB chips for $750 as an Apple upgrade the better deal!
http://www.4allmemory.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.ddr_memory_desktop

PC400 / PC3200 DDR

Memory Module Part Number__Retail__Save__Price
128MB DDR400, PC3200 80095 $ 61.06 $ 6.11 $ 54.95 (yes, same as 256)
256MB DDR400, PC3200 80395 $ 61.06 $ 6.11 $ 54.95 (same as 128)
512MB DDR400, PC3200 80639 $105.50 $10.55 $ 94.95
1.0 GB DDR400 PC3200 80039 $555.50 $55.55 $499.99 Don't forget to add the $100 to the Apple price because they aren't giving you the two 256MB chips. So the $750 becomes $850 (or so). Still better than the place you quote, but not as good as previously thought.

Incidentally, the 2GB (2x1GB) upgrade for the 1.6ghz G5 costs $875. That makes the 1.6 PMac an even worse value. NOTE - the 1.6 PM comes with 2x128MB chips. Since the 128MB and 256MB chips run for about the same money.

sturm375
Jul 2, 2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by MacRAND
1GHz chips are available online from www.4allmemory.com
@ $499.99 each ($999 for 2) making 2x1GB chips for $750 as an Apple upgrade the better deal!
http://www.4allmemory.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.ddr_memory_desktop

PC400 / PC3200 DDR

Memory Module Part Number__Retail__Save__Price
128MB DDR400, PC3200 80095 $ 61.06 $ 6.11 $ 54.95 (yes, same as 256)
256MB DDR400, PC3200 80395 $ 61.06 $ 6.11 $ 54.95 (same as 128)
512MB DDR400, PC3200 80639 $105.50 $10.55 $ 94.95
1.0 GB DDR400 PC3200 80039 $555.50 $55.55 $499.99

Don't forget that the memory you are getting from 4allmemory is the total price. At Apple, you add $750 to the cost of the already 2x256 MB memory sticks installed. We don't know how much Apple is charging for the two 256 MB modules, but if you look at one of the lower end G5, you see that the upgrade from 2x128 -> 2x256 is $125. <fuzzy math>From this you might say that each 256 module cost $125 from Apple, if you assume 1x256 module costs 2 times that of a 128 module. If this is true, than in the starting G5 2x2GHz, you are already spending $250 for the standard memory. Which means that when you "Add $750" to upgrade to 2x1GB Memory, the total memory cost is $1000.</fuzzy math>

I can't honestly say that the above math is correct. I make a lot of assumptions, but I think you'll get the idea of what I am saying. (I Hope).:)

<edit>

A quick search of www.pricewatch.com shows that a decent brand of memory (Kingston) will cost you $260 / 1GB Memory Module. This is not the lowest price (by far), but I thought I'd at least get a good name brand for comparison.

</edit>

<edit again>

Nevermind, I didn't read the fine print, that was for 2x512 modules.

</edit again>

Kid Red
Jul 2, 2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by patrick0brien
-Folks

Remember, Apple can only advertise the maximum that is available in DIMMs being sold.

I have a 12PB, and Apple advertises it at maximum 640GB. But that's inly true due to the fact that 512mb SODIMMs are the only one really available in any volume. Once the 1gb SODIMMs get a good volume, Apple will revise.

I'm sure there's something similar going on here with the G5.

640GB of memory?!?! HOLY MOTHER OF GOD that's a lot of memory ;)

patrick0brien
Jul 2, 2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Kid Red
640GB of memory?!?! HOLY MOTHER OF GOD that's a lot of memory ;)

-Oy

Sorry - You know what I meant! :D

Sun Baked
Jul 3, 2003, 05:05 AM
RAM Expansion

The main logic board of some configurations of the Power Mac G5 computer have four pairs of DDR SDRAM expansion slots for unbuffered DDR400 (PC3200) dual in-line memory modules (DIMMs) for a maximum memory of 8 GB. The main logic board of other configurations of the Power Mac G5 computer have 2 pairs of DDR SDRAM expansion slots for unbuffered DDR333 (PC2700) dual in-line memory modules (DIMMs) for a maximum memory of 4 GB.

Each DIMM can contain 256 and 512 MB (also is capable of 128 MB, 1 GB, and has future expansion ability of 2 GB) of double data rate synchronous dynamic RAM (DDR SDRAM). At least one pair of the RAM expansion slots contains factory installed DIMMs.

Additional DIMMs must be installed in pairs of the same size. The slot pairs are numbered: J11 and J12, J13 and J14, J41 and J42, and J43 and J44; see Figure 4-1 for slot locations and numbering for both the 8-slot and 4-slot configurations. When installing additional memory, populate starting with the lowest slot pair numbers. The combined memory of all of the DIMMs installed is configured as a contiguous array of memory.

For all microprocessor speeds and for both DDR400 (PC3200) and DDR333 (PC2700) SDRAM DIMMs, the Power Mac G5 supports CAS latencies of 2, 2.5, 3, 4, and 5.

And the Power Mac G5 RAM requirement

DIMM Specifications

The RAM expansion slots accept 184-pin DDR SDRAM DIMMs that are 2.5 volt, unbuffered, 8-byte, nonparity, and DDR400-compliant (PC3200) or DR333-compliant (PC2700).

Important

DDR266 (PC2100) or slower DIMMs do not work in the Power Mac G5 computer.

Important

DIMMs with any of the following features are not supported in the Power Mac G5 computer: registers or buffers, PLLs, ECC, parity, or EDO RAM.

Mechanical Specifications

The mechanical design of the DDR SDRAM DIMM is defined by the JEDEC specification JESD21-C, MODULES4_20_4, Release 11b. To find this specification on the World Wide Web, refer to "RAM Expansion Modules" (page 80).

The maximum height of DIMMs for use in the Power Mac G5 computer is 2 inches.

Electrical Specifications

The electrical design of the SDRAM DIMM is defined by the JEDEC specification JESD21-C, MODULES4_20_4, Release 11b. To find this specification on the World Wide Web, refer to "RAM Expansion Modules" (page 80).

The Serial Presence Detect (SPD) EEPROM specified in the JEDEC standard is required and must be set to properly define the DIMM configuration. The EEPROM is powered on 3.3 V. Details about the required values for each byte on the SPD EEPROM can be found on pages 68-70 of the JEDEC specification.

Important

For a DIMM to be recognized by the startup software, the SPD feature must be programmed properly to indicate the timing modes supported by the DIMM.

benixau
Jul 3, 2003, 06:35 AM
PowerMac G5 theoretical maximum RAM = 4TB.
just needs a firmware update - scary huh?

Wyrm
Jul 3, 2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by benixau
PowerMac G5 theoretical maximum RAM = 4TB.
just needs a firmware update - scary huh?

It would probably require a little more than a firmware update.

That would be 4,096 184pin 1GB DIMMs for example, or about $1,920,000 USD at current Apple store prices. This would require about 30,000 Amps of power, or 66 kilowatts and need about 80 meters of board space. This would, incidently, cost you around $10,000 US an hour to operate at Japanese electricity prices (~1.2Million yen) and probably drop the voltage of the entire power grid when you powered it on. <brown-out>"Gall dang it! benixau turned on his computer again..."
:D

-Wyrm

benixau
Jul 3, 2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Wyrm
It would probably require a little more than a firmware update.

That would be 4,096 184pin 1GB DIMMs for example, or about $1,920,000 USD at current Apple store prices. This would require about 30,000 Amps of power, or 66 kilowatts and need about 80 meters of board space. This would, incidently, cost you around $10,000 US an hour to operate at Japanese electricity prices (~1.2Million yen) and probably drop the voltage of the entire power grid when you powered it on. <brown-out>"Gall dang it! benixau turned on his computer again..."
:D

-Wyrm

ROFLMAO - that last bit is hilarious.
But what i mean is that we will eventually have 512GB modules. 8 of those will equal 4TB of RAM.

As for your power calculations (still chuckling) tell me how much power it would take to do 8GB of RAM based on 16MB EDO RAM???

void
Jul 3, 2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Shadowfax
what did you say? (http://www.crucial.com/store/PartSpecs.asp?imodule=CT12864X265&cat=RAM)

better look harder next time ;)

also, apple RAM has always been more expensive. i dunno why, probably the classic "we use better quality products, even though a lot of idiots with hardware problems on their PCs don't think so."
That is PC-2100 or DDR 266
The G5 uses PC-3200 or DDR 400
And newegg is alot better for RAM
link (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?description=20-144-305&DEPA=1)

shadowfax
Jul 3, 2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by void
That is PC-2100 or DDR 266
The G5 uses PC-3200 or DDR 400
And newegg is alot better for RAM
link (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?description=20-144-305&DEPA=1)
before you address a post that's 2 pages back, you should try reading some of the posts after it, as well as the phrasing that caused me to say that. when i posted, i was fully aware that it was PC2100, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still a 1 GB stick of RAM. but anyways, so you don't have to trouble yourself or strain your faculties, here's a quick recap of what was said within about 12 hours of that:
Originally posted by Frohickey
Um... you need to clean your glasses. Thats a 200pin SODimm module. Though, there is a PC2100 184pin DDR DIMM in a 2GB size. (I feel like Ahnuld... go to a store, I want a PC3200 DDR DIMM in a 2GB size, and a phased plasma rifle in 40W range. :)

G5s use PC2700 (333MHz) and PC3200 (400MHz). Originally posted by utilizer
Sorry shadow, but the G5 uses 184-pin DDR RAM, not 200-pin RAM, so I assume they're just not available yet in the 1 Gig config yet. Besides, Crucial would tell you if one was available when you put in the PowerMac G5, which it doesn't. I was wrong earlier when I said something about 16 banks of memory only costs $1504 from those guys, but the G5 only has 8 banks; again, they don't list DDR400 184-pin 1 GB chipsets...yet. Time will tell. Originally posted by Shadowfax
thanks for setting me straight, but someone had already done so. i wasn't implying that they sold PC2700 or 3200 1 GB sticks, you just said, plain as day, that they didn't sell 1 GB sticks, which they do, both the cited SODIMMS i linked and PC133 RAM... i was just playing around. i definitely don't need glasses. i can read, and you did say they didn't sell 1 GB sticks, and they do. just not PC2700 or 3200. i'm sorry if i sound mean, but i think it's impolite to try and show people up when all you're really doing is being redundant.

jamilecrire
Jul 3, 2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by GeeYouEye
I'd put more faith in the maximum you see anywhere than anything less; the rev. A iBook had a "maximum" of 160 MB, but I've got one with 288, and I've seen them with up to 544.

Besides, who really needs more than 8 GB, anyway?

Oracle on OS X Server.

I do (if Oracle would get out of RC stages). My company is evaluating Oracle on Linux and Solaris. If 9i can get out of RC stage for OS 10.3 I'll have them consider it as well.

Apple has their window, they just need to open it.

Wyrm
Jul 3, 2003, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by benixau
ROFLMAO - that last bit is hilarious.
But what i mean is that we will eventually have 512GB modules. 8 of those will equal 4TB of RAM.

As for your power calculations (still chuckling) tell me how much power it would take to do 8GB of RAM based on 16MB EDO RAM???

Yeah pretty funny. 512GB Ram modules?!
Assuming a new memory (which is probably coming anyway soon -maybe with DDR-II in the near-term), it would require a process 1/32 of what it is today - say 3.125nm vs 100nm... er I'm not sure you could fab a transistor that small... without some radical shift in design philosophy. There'd be about 3072 billion transistors per module (that's about 300 times more than the number of stars in the Milky-Way GALAXY! PER MODULE!)

To give you a size comparison, Blue light is 300nm, the colbalt alloy grain used in contempory HDD is about 10nm, and Silicon has a diamond cubic structure (5 atoms) with a unit cell dimension about 0.542nm (great useless knowledge factoid), so that would be an entire transistor about 5-6 cells wide; 25-30 ATOMS!. Wooo...

Ok, assuming the miracles of materials science keep up with the ever-increasingly misquoted "Moore's law" (in fact this is a misquote - but assuming gate length halves every 18 months)
That's 5 iterations for 90 months, or 7.5 years!!!!

Hmmm... that's not too far away is it? About 2011 or so.

Let's hope Apple's not stuck again "*whine* *whine* *whine* - Apple is only 1850Ghz, while WinIntel is 7292Ghz!"

I suppose my virtual reality universe will run great in OS X... (aka 10.11).

I guess a blue screen of DEATH would take on a more accurate meaning! (remember: "the body cannot live without the mind" - The Matrix) :D

We'll be there, saying "...I remember when I was young we had... mice to move a thing around a screen made of blocks called 'pic-suls' and you had to type on something called a 'keee-board'..... none of this new-fangled 'Jack-me-in!'... <grumble> <grumble> <grumble> <Zzzzz>"

Needless to say, 64bits will last a while.

:D

-Wyrm

illumin8
Jul 3, 2003, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by jamilecrire
Oracle on OS X Server.

I do (if Oracle would get out of RC stages). My company is evaluating Oracle on Linux and Solaris. If 9i can get out of RC stage for OS 10.3 I'll have them consider it as well.

Apple has their window, they just need to open it.
Hehe... I always laugh when I hear something like this. Let's see, if Oracle for OS X can just get out of beta, and Jaguar can get out of beta, and Apple can build an Xserve that holds 8GB of RAM, and, and, and...

Whatever happened to using the right tool for the job? A Sun box is great for Oracle. I wouldn't suggest you use the Sun box for desktop publishing, just like I wouldn't suggest you use the Apple box as an enterprise database server.

jamilecrire
Jul 4, 2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by illumin8
Hehe... I always laugh when I hear something like this. Let's see, if Oracle for OS X can just get out of beta, and Jaguar can get out of beta, and Apple can build an Xserve that holds 8GB of RAM, and, and, and...

Whatever happened to using the right tool for the job? A Sun box is great for Oracle. I wouldn't suggest you use the Sun box for desktop publishing, just like I wouldn't suggest you use the Apple box as an enterprise database server.

Sun is not even close to Linux as an Oracle box. With clustering you can beat sun hands down on cost and performance. I like Solaris on SPARC but it's losing it's competitive advantage quickly. With OS X and Oracle it will give me another option outside of the probable choice of Linux. Solaris/SPARC is too expensive.

For example, my parent company (billion dollar pharaceutical company) has a Sun SPARC based data warehouse that cost close to 1.5 million to install. However they run all their current apps off of a Linux/Oracle combo on cheap hardware and get 10x the performance.

I love it when people who don't actually use the software/hardware comment on things they have no experience in.

Thanks troll.