iPhone-optimized web app (demo)

[neven]

Since there will be no third-party apps for iPhone in June, I thought I'd try creating a web app that would run like a widget on iPhone. You would surf over to it in Safari on iPhone, and it would fill the screen nicely to look like a "real" iPhone app. By that I mean, it shouldn't get scaled down, and it's small and compact

Here it is:

OneTrip (http://www.mrgan.com/onetrip/) - an iPhone shopping list.

It will only work in Safari (obviously). Comments? Do you think it will be a worthwhile effort to create such iPhone-ready websites?

[Silver-Fox]

i dont think people will go out of there way to create web pages just for the iphone, but i would like to know wha it does look like on the iphone

[neven]

I don't think existing websites should be made iPhone-friendly, and it probably wouldn't be worth anyone's time to create an iPhone-optimized blog or online store, but I really hope that it's easy to make things look and feel "native" on iPhone. I can think of a number of simple widgets like this that I'd really like to have on my phone - so until we get actual widgets, I hope this will do.

[slffl]

Hey I like your app. I hope it works well with the iPhone.

[fastdrive]

That actually is a pretty handy little app :)

[freeflydrew]

that's a great idea and it looks great too

[Project]

This is superb. Very slick and I cant wait to try it out on the iPhone.

[ehurtley]

i dont think people will go out of there way to create web pages just for the iphone, but i would like to know wha it does look like on the iphone

Why not? A whole "ecosystem" of web pages has sprung up for the Wii, why not the iPhone?

And, I love the app. Very simple, elegant, and easy to use. I'll be sure to use it when I get my iPhone. :-D

[Silver-Fox]

Why not? A whole "ecosystem" of web pages has sprung up for the Wii, why not the iPhone?

i just dont think it will latch on as much as the wii did

[neven]

Thanks for the feedback. I hope this sort of dynamic JavaScript will run well on iPhone. I can think of a number of simple apps like this I could put together. Ideas for anything you'd really like to have on a phone?

[sprescott1974]

this looks really cool, and i agree optimized pages for iphone could be amazing. explain to me though why i would use this list instead of say notepad.

[neven]

explain to me though why i would use this list instead of say notepad.

If you mean instead of a paper notepad...

- I don't always have one on me. Pretty much the only things I can guarantee to have on me are my phone, wallet, and keys.

If you mean instead of iPhone's Notes feature...

- You can add, check off, and remove items with one click

And these go for both:

- It's less work to click a few (common) items than to write them down or type them in
- They'll be sorted by category
- When picking from a list, you might see things you wouldn't have thought to write down. "Oh yeah, I also need garlic."
- It's cooler :)

[fastdrive]

Now if only you could make this into a widgit.

I know within a few days of the iphone being out someone will hack it so that we can add our own :D

[psycoswimmer]

Wow, that looks really handy. But say you exit out of Safari to answer a call or change the now playing song, everything gets deleted? That could be irritating. But still, very neat app. Good job. :)

[neven]

Wow, that looks really handy. But say you exit out of Safari to answer a call or change the now playing song, everything gets deleted? That could be irritating.

I don't believe Safari will close open tabs if you just exit the browser to go to the iPod or phone module. That would be irritating for more than just this app :)

However, if you close the tab manually, you'll lose your list, true. It would be near-trivial to store that on the server so you could restart your session, but this would be complicated for the user. You'd have to create an account, log in... that defeats the purpose of it being a really small, handy app. I'll think about it though. It remains to be seen if it'll be usable on iPhone at all.

[Project]

Would be cool if you could tap into the Basecamp/backpack API to read/write these lists.

[Chaszmyr]

I really like your app, I think I'll use it if it works well with the iPhone.

[psycoswimmer]

I don't believe Safari will close open tabs if you just exit the browser to go to the iPod or phone module. That would be irritating for more than just this app :)

However, if you close the tab manually, you'll lose your list, true. It would be near-trivial to store that on the server so you could restart your session, but this would be complicated for the user. You'd have to create an account, log in... that defeats the purpose of it being a really small, handy app. I'll think about it though. It remains to be seen if it'll be usable on iPhone at all.

Right, I see what you mean. Good point about the saving-tab part. Hopefully Safari will keep tabs open as long as you have your iPhone on.

[neven]

I guess once we get our iPhones (I tear up just thinking about it) I'll update this thread letting everyone know if there are any issues with the app, and if I plan on moving it to a better-hosted server.

[kuebby]

That's awesome. Very well done. Simple and it does what needs to be done. Unfortunately it will become obsolete if Apple allows any type of homemade widgets.

[neven]

I have no experience with Mac software development, but I'm reasonably skilled with web development. I haven't looked at Dashcode yet (I'm afraid I'd be intimidated) - does anyone know how hard it would be to make this into an actual widget?

[psychofreak]

Now if only you could make this into a widgit.

I know within a few days of the iphone being out someone will hack it so that we can add our own :D

I'm sure iPhone Linux will be awesome :)

[sportsfanMAW]

I have no experience with Mac software development, but I'm reasonably skilled with web development. I haven't looked at Dashcode yet (I'm afraid I'd be intimidated) - does anyone know how hard it would be to make this into an actual widget?

with dashcode its incredibly easy.... i made one lmao

[ehurtley]

Well, I tried loading it on my Palm OS device with the rather lackluster "Palm Web Browser 2.0.3", and it doesn't load. :-( I figured it would be a good resolution test, since it's a 480x320 device.

Unfortunately, the only other web browser that works on my Palm OS device is a paid-for piece of software that, while more competent than the Palm offering, isn't worth the money to me.

[/dev/toaster]

If they don't allow 3rd party widget development, then this sounds like an interesting idea.

[neven]

Well, I tried loading it on my Palm OS device with the rather lackluster "Palm Web Browser 2.0.3", and it doesn't load. :-( I figured it would be a good resolution test, since it's a 480x320 device.

Sorry about that - it intentionally won't load in any browser but Safari. My only purpose in this was to create an iPhone app, and testing it in other browsers would have been pointless (and time-consuming, and boring). Without testing it, I don't want people to pull it up in, say, Firefox, and start complaining about layout and JS issues :)

But that was a great idea, to test it like that. Thanks!

[mac-er]

explain to me though why i would use this list instead of say notepad.

because a notepad is so last century....the iPhone is a smartphone...which is supposed to replace your organizer and to do list

[chatster18]

Very cool....

It would be even cooler to make it so you could have the option of logging in or like a one time use so you dont have to log in... so you could be a registered user and you could save shopping lists make custom lists, send to other iPhones etc. you could make a widget for your mac that would log in to the account create a shopping list and then when you log on from you iPhone you would have the list there.... just some thoughts

also you might consider getting the domain www.onetrip.mobi

but you have a great web app!

[fishkorp]

Right, I see what you mean. Good point about the saving-tab part. Hopefully Safari will keep tabs open as long as you have your iPhone on.

you better hope you have an unlimited data plan then, otherwise it could get very expensive if the browser stays open all the time.

[sigamy]

I really like your app.

Here is my question, my wife calls me at 10am and gives me a list of 10 things to pick up at the store. I enter those thru your app. Then I exit Safari, take phone calls, play music, etc. on the iPhone.

If I go back to safari will my list still be there?

[notsofatjames]

you better hope you have an unlimited data plan then, otherwise it could get very expensive if the browser stays open all the time.
it doesnt cost to leave a browser open. just to download data/webpages. Leaving this page open wouldn't use any data allowances, unless its implimented with the logggin-in and store online people suggested above

maybe you could store a file locally (cookie?) on the iPhone to save your list. but hopefully you can make 3rd party widgets, with their own storeage space for a list.

[neven]

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions. Let me reply to a few points:

- OneTrip is a very, very small application. There's only one page to load (other than the info page) and it never needs to be reloaded. Opening it once and leaving the tab open *should*, if my understanding of Safari on iPhone is correct, let you use it, even if you lose your Internet/data connection. That's the way it works on the "desktop Safari" - if I load the page and turn AirPort off, I can still use it (some images won't show up, but I can fix that easily. Still a work in progress!)

- Storing lists in cookies or on a server is a really good feature and it wouldn't be difficult to implement, but I don't want to get ahead of myself before I see how this actually looks and works on iPhone.

[neven]

Psst... a brief update - OneTrip will now save your shopping list in a cookie, so it'll be available next time you load the page. No worries if you close the tab!

http://www.mrgan.com/onetrip/

[chatster18]

Again....cool

[ehurtley]

You can claim to be the first dedicated iPhone app developer now. In the WWDC keynote, it was revealed that your method is apparently as of now the only official method for developing iPhone apps!

(And yours has a very iPhone-esque look to it, too. Make sure to find somewhere to submit it to Apple so it can be one of the first in the list of iPhone apps! You know, the same way they have a list of Dashboard Widgets, I'm sure they'll have a similar list of iPhone apps.)

[i0Nic]

This app looks good, an improvement I suggest is that in the item list view, there should be an option (a little X) to delete the item without having to click edit.

Good work!

[i0Nic]

http://digg.com/apple/1st_iPhone_3rd_party_web_app_OneTrip

[/dev/toaster]

Since there will be no third-party apps for iPhone in June, I thought I'd try creating a web app that would run like a widget on iPhone. You would surf over to it in Safari on iPhone, and it would fill the screen nicely to look like a "real" iPhone app. By that I mean, it shouldn't get scaled down, and it's small and compact

Here it is:

OneTrip (http://www.mrgan.com/onetrip/) - an iPhone shopping list.

It will only work in Safari (obviously). Comments? Do you think it will be a worthwhile effort to create such iPhone-ready websites?

I am VERY impressed with that! I like simple the interface is, and does everything you need. I would suggest putting a "return to list" button, so while into a sub-category you can get to the list without going back twice.

I would also recommend trying to find a way to compact the code as much as possible. After all, we will be using it on EDGE. I would recommend having a compressed HTML version which removes all extra white space, line breaks and change variable names to be as small as you can. (for Javascript and div id's) I know it sounds silly, but every little tiny bit helps.

Without a doubt I will use your app once I get my iPhone. I also look forward to other apps you might develop for the iPhone.

[neven]

Oh snap! I so called it :)

False modesty aside, I think my app is better and more iPhone-esque than the directory they showed in the keynote.

Thanks for all the suggestions - I'll see what I can do. I agree about the need for a "Home" button. Not so sure about deleting directly in the list - too easy to accidentally do. The delete functionality is based on the demo of iPhone's Contacts functionality. My idea is that people will mainly be 1. adding 2. checking off 3. clearing the whole list. But I could be wrong!

[Rhema]

I truly wonder how many ideas steve jobs gets from reading these forums. This is the second idea that was posted several weeks ago, and then appeared in a mac product

[mrkramer]

I truly wonder how many ideas steve jobs gets from reading these forums. This is the second idea that was posted several weeks ago, and then appeared in a mac product

I think that they get some, I think that I saw the Leopard Dock in someone's photoshop mock up of their idea, and also didn't someone post the coverflow finder saying that they had created it in photoshop a week or so before it was announced.

[neven]

About the OneTrip file size: the entire thing, including images, JavaScript, and stylesheets, is 14.7 KB. Stripping away the whitespace only removes about 1 KB so it's hardly worth doing. I think this should load very quickly even over EDGE.

[xUKHCx]

Was trying to find this thread after the keynote to say good call and congrats to the forward thinking.

[Sijmen]

This looks cool :D very iPhone-ish indeed. Good candidate for Webclip, too :)

[neven]

This looks cool :D very iPhone-ish indeed. Good candidate for Webclip, too :)

I didn't even think about that... Somebody said, a few replies up, that I should make it into a widget. No need now.

[meagain]

I like it. I would use it.

[fivetoadsloth]

Looks really good, Congrats on reading apples mind there by the way.
:)

[zgh1999]

Nice app buddy.

It may be the first 3rd party app to hit the iPhone!

Did you spell your last name right on the credits?

Also, it would even be better to introduce a healthier, greener selection of food. Apple and iPhone users will likely tend to be more health conscious, don't you think?

Hell, why not write a health diet program that allows the user to enter all his/her bios and stats, and then computes and tells the user what to eat for each day of the week in order to become or stay healthy? Better yet, the program would update the user on his/her progress (assuming he/she sticks to the diet plan) whenever the users wants an update. This would make sense since iPhone is something you carry around.

If I were you, I would be calling Atkins diet and all the diet companies out there to offer to write the program.

Now, whoever implements this idea, please give credit or royalty payment to me for coming up with this idea.

Much thanks.

[neven]

Nice app buddy.

It may be the first 3rd party app to hit the iPhone!

Did you spell your last name right on the credits?

Also, it would even be better to introduce a healthier, greener selection of food. Apple and iPhone users will likely tend to be more health conscious, don't you think?

I agree that the selection is a little weird now. Abstracting something as big as an entire store into a few items in a few categories ain't easy! If you have specific suggestions, I could definitely use them.

The last name is one-hundred-percent correct; as my website (http://mrgan.com) tagline says, I've been missing vowels since before the likes of Flickr and Tumblr thought of it!

[iJon]

Good concept. I would also check out Ta da list. Works very well.

http://www.tadalist.com/

jon

[neven]

TaDa is very nice. I can't compete with 37signals when it comes to full-featured apps. But, OneTrip is really more of a super-lightweight widget. No registration, no typing (in most cases), a completely stripped down UI.

[Laslo Panaflex]

neven, great job and congrats on thinking about this before it was announced. I remember reading your post when you first posted and thought it was a great way to develop iPhone apps, who would have thought that Apple thought so to (or perhaps like many have eluded to, apple read your post and stole the idea).

Anyway, keep up the great work.

[hortiz]

Neven, try your "app" here, and you may get an idea of how it will look (if it works):

http://hortiz.no/iphone/

[neven]

Neven, try your "app" here, and you may get an idea of how it will look (if it works):

http://hortiz.no/iphone/

Excellent! Thank you. I built a similar thing to use for development. The only immediately visible difference is that you, unsurprisingly, can't scroll long lists in your wrapper. Still, it gives a good idea of what this will look like.

[I WAS the one]

I Think that you guys that think that iPhone-only websites are a joke think twice. iPhone-Only websites will be the best option for everyone, welcome to the iPhone era, and congrats to you and your app, man! it's cool!

[bravedeer]

But not being able to go from an item you just added to the main section makes it time consuming to use!

[irahodges]

I wanted to point out a little glitch that happened to me so you can fix it...

When you check off things on the list, but then go and add new items to the list, the checks stay where they are in the list while the other items are pushed down. This makes the checks not coincide with what was checked originally.

Hope I could help!

Awesome app by the way! I would use it :)

[dscottbuch]

I don't believe Safari will close open tabs if you just exit the browser to go to the iPod or phone module. That would be irritating for more than just this app :)

However, if you close the tab manually, you'll lose your list, true. It would be near-trivial to store that on the server so you could restart your session, but this would be complicated for the user. You'd have to create an account, log in... that defeats the purpose of it being a really small, handy app. I'll think about it though. It remains to be seen if it'll be usable on iPhone at all.

Wouldn't cookies solve this?

Also this is a good example of why Apple released Safari on Windows. This works AND LOOKS identical on both Safaris, and likely will on the iPhone.

This is where things are headed. Add Google Gears and your there.

[roland.g]

That's pretty slick.

[Montserrat]

Have you had any hits from the iPhone yet? Has this hit their radar? :)

[dscottbuch]

I wanted to point out a little glitch that happened to me so you can fix it...

When you check off things on the list, but then go and add new items to the list, the checks stay where they are in the list while the other items are pushed down. This makes the checks not coincide with what was checked originally.

Hope I could help!

Awesome app by the way! I would use it :)

One other small glitch. Don't know if it will happen on the phone but when the list is longer than the window and the scroll bar comes up the check boxes are partially covered.

Again, Awesome

[Ted13]

Thanks for the feedback. I hope this sort of dynamic JavaScript will run well on iPhone. I can think of a number of simple apps like this I could put together. Ideas for anything you'd really like to have on a phone?
This is a superb little app, and of course one that would make sense to run locally on the iPhone, rather than connected to a remote site.

I wonder if there will be an easy mechanism to load such apps on the phone to run locally?

However, I was under the (mis)impression that the iPhone does not support JavaScript. Am I wrong?

Ted

[Montserrat]

One other small glitch. Don't know if it will happen on the phone but when the list is longer than the window and the scroll bar comes up the check boxes are partially covered.

Again, Awesome

Doesn't look like the iPHone has a scroll bar that appears - just grey overlayed bars when you're moving the webpage around with your finger, so hopefully shouldn't affect the app?

[Chaszmyr]

This is a superb little app, and of course one that would make sense to run locally on the iPhone, rather than connected to a remote site.

I wonder if there will be an easy mechanism to load such apps on the phone to run locally?

However, I was under the (mis)impression that the iPhone does not support JavaScript. Am I wrong?

Ted

There will (at least at launch) be no mechanism to load these apps directly to the iPhone, so far as Apple has indicated.


The iPhone does run JavaScript, it does not run Java. The two are very different things.

[alywa]

Nothing to really add, but nice app. I'd use it, and I'm sure many others would too.

One question (sorry if it is a noob one)... To use web apps, are they downloaded like widgets (ie contained within the browsers cache once you've loaded the page), or are you accessing the host each time you make a change (ie add milk, does it access the host, add bread, access again, etc).

If it is a one-time access type thing, it would be very useful, but if it is constantly accessing, it would be very expensive for the host to have the program available.

[Hattig]

That's quite nifty!

You left lamb off the meat list though...

Hopefully the iPhone will allow you to put URL shortcuts on your application list. There may even be a requirement for an "iphoneicon.png" file for the shortcut icon. Hopefully the iPhone caches the page content, including the Javascript, so unless the application is updated it should be very quick to run the application (hopefully this method would work offline too).

[whateverandever]

Nothing to really add, but nice app. I'd use it, and I'm sure many others would too.

One question (sorry if it is a noob one)... To use web apps, are they downloaded like widgets (ie contained within the browsers cache once you've loaded the page), or are you accessing the host each time you make a change (ie add milk, does it access the host, add bread, access again, etc).

If it is a one-time access type thing, it would be very useful, but if it is constantly accessing, it would be very expensive for the host to have the program available.

I didn't really look at his Javascript file, but for something like this it's entirely plausible to set and read the cookies through Javascript without accessing the server once the page has loaded.

[Maccus Aurelius]

I particularly love this idea because this means unlimited applications for a single iPhone with no significant consumption of the 4-8GB flash drive. And with the slew of web developers out there this should be absolutely cake. I've read a lot of jabs at Apple for having web-based applications instead of fill-up-phone programs, and in my opinion, I find this option much better. There's no worry of applications sucking up resources and so forth, and most importantly, Safari for Windows now opens this avenue up to PC-platform developers, since they now have a taste of Apple's browser without having to use an Apple system. I think it's brilliant, and neven, my hat goes off to you.

[justflie]

Nice job! Consider it bookmarked.

The first thing I thought of was if Safari on the iPhone would allow us to save web pages. If this is the case, would your app run as a saved webpage (ie could we use it as a stand-alone app, just like the others on the home screen)?

[brepublican]

Great app neven, your foresight is amazing! It'll be really interesting to see how other web2.0 apps will be able to exploit the iPhone's internal services.

[ISMPlus]

NIIIIICE!! Very cool app, I will use it. :)

[stringify]

Nice little app! I would use this.

FWIW: I wrote a JavaScript menu based on the Finder's column view. It might lend itself well to iPhone apps:

http://www.stringify.com/columnav/

/end shameless plug

[stagi]

looks pretty cool, cant wait to try it out on a real iPhone

[rjlawrencejr]

Here's a question for everyone. What role could mac.com accounts play in all of this? Those of us who subscribe have server space available. Could this be a way for us to "collect" apps without forcing additonal server burden on independent developers?

I have made some assumptions that I have no idea whether they are possible or not. Please enlighten me.

[imacdaddy]

I have a hunch .Mac will follow the example of the Facebook Platform, for 3rd party development of external web apps. You will see iPhone Platform on .Mac.

Seriously, I'm all for Centralized Applications and web apps does just that. I'd prefer this path over installed apps. I've got apps on my smartphone I seldom use and taking up lots of space. Centralized Applications will free up memory for more music and videos. My 2 cents.

[deejemon]

My feeling is that this is reason #1 that Safari 3 for Windows exists. Not as much about improving website compatibility with Safari, or beating Microsoft. Unlike other companies, Apple doesn't expect to require people to use one of their computers running their operating system to develop for their device, particularly for business/corporate apps. Safari 3 on the desktop is essentially the SDK for iPhone, or at least the test mule.

If it improves Safari support around the rest of the web, so be it. If it takes a chunk out of Internet Explorer, so much the better. But don't underestimate how serious Apple are about iPhone; porting their browser to Windows and unbundling the Mac version from Leopard should be proof of that.

[whooleytoo]

I haven't been able to get through to the site yet, but doesn't this kinda go against the grain of Apple's "not a mobile version of the internet"? ;)

It's kind of contradictory of Apple to say 'the iPhone uses the full internet, not a mobile version. But we hope people will create lots of iPhone specific pages'.

[fastdrive]

Has something changed in your app recently? I now see multiple columns on the same page, e.g. my life on the left followed by the main grocery menu next to it.

Earlier if I remember correctly it would only show 1 column view?

[Deslock]

very cool. would one be able to save the webapp files (not just the cookies with the data) to the iphone and load it locally so as to not have to be connected online to use it? (pardon me if that's already been answered; i read the thread and didn't see it brought up)

[tk421]

Very, very cool app! Nice work. This is something I would definitely use (if I could afford an iPhone! maybe 2nd or 3rd gen...)

I agree that the selection is a little weird now. Abstracting something as big as an entire store into a few items in a few categories ain't easy! If you have specific suggestions, I could definitely use them.

I'm sure there's no way to include everything, which is why the "Type it in..." feature is great. But here are a few suggestions, which you are welcome to take or discard as you will.

Cereal! (this is a big one for me)
Yogurt
Bagels
Maybe baking supplies would be its own category: (Flour, Sugar, Salt, Oil, Spices, etc.)
Laundry Detergent
Deodorant
Feminine Products
Cosmetics
Baby Food/Diapers/etc.
Pet Food
Trash Bags
Pharmacy category (Vitamins, Aspirin, Prescriptions, Band-aids, etc.)

[mambodancer]

Thanks for the feedback. I hope this sort of dynamic JavaScript will run well on iPhone. I can think of a number of simple apps like this I could put together. Ideas for anything you'd really like to have on a phone?

Yeah, a find Movie and theater ap.

I'd like to be able to see what's playing at a given time, let me read a synopsis and view a trailer, find the nearest theater (using google maps) and buy the tickets online.

Or,

Where's the nearest gas station and what is the price of gas there.

[LordJohnWhorfin]

Anybody who thinks this is a good idea has obviously no experience dealing with Cingular's EDGE network. Yes, this is a "smartphone", and that's exactly why processing *everything* remotely makes no sense at all, especially when the data connection is so poor. It's a brilliant way to go when the data has to live remotely, for instance for a collaborative application or for map data.
But for very simple applications that have no reason to access the network connection other than an arbitrary diktat, it's just silly. Then again, this little "Snap!" thing has potential if turned into a collaborative app (the whole family could have access to a common shopping list, for instance, and everybody would be able to find out in real time who has already bought what).

[skinnylegs]

Outstanding job. Clean, simple and very elegant. This is a very handy little widget and I hope to see more from you.

So.....if I am understanding how this works.....web-based widgets will be stored as bookmarks within Safari?

[JPyre]

iphone has no file explorer to browse files. You wont be able to save downloads. You can bookmark iphone apps someway(highly unlikely they'll install). You think you can watch quicktime movies in safari....... or even save email attachments localy.... think again.

The only way to view audio/video/apps on iphone will either be in itunes or safari, I guruntee you CAN NOT download files, listen to audio in safari, watch video in safari, or pix msg.

ps. The fact that flash player 7 is on my 4yo Avx-6600 and not iPhone amazes me.... unless adobe releases it....., which they can't because you can't develop for the phone due to no sdk :rolleyes: not forgetting the fact you cant install them even if you could make them.

sorry for the tone, but i think everybody's really dissappointed and the complaints are justified for that price. and for those that say "its not out yet" um what does that have to do with what it is?

I'm still going to camp out for it, but iphone is not at all what it could be.

This grocery list app will be the first one bookmarked :)

Nice job! Consider it bookmarked.

The first thing I thought of was if Safari on the iPhone would allow us to save web pages. If this is the case, would your app run as a saved webpage (ie could we use it as a stand-alone app, just like the others on the home screen)?

UPDATE: The only reasons I'm geting an iPhone? Faith in future software updates(can't update my pda-phone to WM6) and my Verizon contract ends the 30th.

[rjlawrencejr]

Neven,

I was on train reading about your new app on my Sidekick. I just took the opportunity to give it a test drive when I got to work. Color me impressed.

[bigmc6000]

Anybody who thinks this is a good idea has obviously no experience dealing with Cingular's EDGE network. Yes, this is a "smartphone", and that's exactly why processing *everything* remotely makes no sense at all, especially when the data connection is so poor. It's a brilliant way to go when the data has to live remotely, for instance for a collaborative application or for map data.
But for very simple applications that have no reason to access the network connection other than an arbitrary diktat, it's just silly. Then again, this little "Snap!" thing has potential if turned into a collaborative app (the whole family could have access to a common shopping list, for instance, and everybody would be able to find out in real time who has already bought what).

It'd be great if the iPhone could keep some of these apps in cache and have a folder (the 12th icon) that had widgets. You open that folder and there's a list of all your Safari based widgets that are still contained only in safari's cache. This would keep you from being screwed when bringing up a widget in a very large supermarket where you get no reception or for those millions of people who live and/or go places that you don't get reception.

Hopefully apple will eventually figure this out as the best way to do this since they won't allow you to put apps directly on the iPhone.

But like I said - probably a pipe dream :(

[Brethil]

Very Cool! Keep it up!

[fishtank22]

WAIT!!!! What if my supermarket doesn't have a mobile signal!!!! AHHHH!!!

It would be smart if these mobile web apps could run locally. Like you download a package that can be stored on the phone rather than run via the internet.

Just sayin!

[Babasyzygy]

However, if you close the tab manually, you'll lose your list, true. It would be near-trivial to store that on the server so you could restart your session, but this would be complicated for the user. You'd have to create an account, log in... that defeats the purpose of it being a really small, handy app. I'll think about it though. It remains to be seen if it'll be usable on iPhone at all.

It doesn't have to be hard for the user - look at how gmail operates with a partially composed message. A cookie logs me into the site invisibly, and it automatically restores the draft message into the composition buffer. No muss, no fuss.

Plus, there are all sort of revenue models you can hang on this thing if you have accounts, from supplying coupons to other customer loyalty models.

[starnox]

Wow this iPhone apps are really fast...

[brsboarder]

yeah, its very lame that as of now, you can't download locally, it really limits the iphone, i'm disappointed w/ apple

[droz]

yeah, i can't believe how poorly Apple is playing this widget mess. First off, since this thread is related to a sample web widget that was developed I should say "cool, looks good. I like it." But now i can rant about why this thread is even necessary. Widgets that have to access the network to function are just not practical on a phone. If Apple is not going to support actual third party development of widgets on the iphone then they shouldn't market this Safari alternative as an exciting "feature".

I don't blame Apple at all for wanting to lock up the iphone for a while, at least until the initial bugs are worked out. The last thing they need are a bunch of third party apps on the loose while they are trying to sort out all the pitfalls in V1.0. But the way they should have approached this is to explain that Apple will continue to develop approved widgets
(and/or other software updates) for the iphone (for which they have already indicated through the accounting implications of spreading the revenue out over 24 months) and making them available for free. And that they will work on a standard developers kit for third party apps starting in 2008. At least that's how i would have approached it.

This Safari business just aint cutting it. Waiting on v2.0. :(

...Wishing they would just go back to focusing on their CORE business -- the Mac.

[rtdunham]

...My idea is that people will mainly be 1. adding 2. checking off 3. clearing the whole list. But I could be wrong!

Hi Neven, great start. You had a good idea, and acted on it. We should all be so motivated. I'd like to suggest an alternative to your list above.

Backstory: My father's a retired accountant, so he's meticulous--some would say obsessive--about lists. When I was young he typed up a list of all the items he ever got at the supermarket, with a box in front of each so he could check the ones he needed that week (in those days you typed left-bracket right-bracket like this [] to make a box). He organized them by categories, and then further by the sequence in which those categories appeared on the shelves as he walked through his supermarket! The list fit on one page. He made a bunch of copies of his list, and used one per week. Items could be checked over several days, as the need for them was noted, and when it was time to go to the store the list was ready and tailored for an efficient food-shopping experience.

The list served particularly well when my mom was hospitalized for a year and dad had to run a household, care for an infant daughter, and keep his job.
So what's to learn from him?

1. Shopping lists are personal.
Some posters have noted their desire for a more vegetarian orientation, for example. Others will want to remind themselves of the brand or size of a product they prefer to get. My dad's list was his list. Your type-in function allows that personalization: the question is how it's best utilized.

2. Shopping lists need to be comprehensive.
It's four decades since my dad typed his list, but I think your project could best serve users if it emulated his approach, to develop a personalized list of all the items the user ever purchases at the grocery. Using the app then requires the user to simply access it at any time during the week, click on items as the need for them is noted (no new entry necessary) and then make a final sweep of the pantry and frig before leaving for the store. Note that with this procedure even if you're out and have failed to make that final check, but find yourself driving past the grocery and remembering you need milk, you'll have a reasonably current list with you and won't end up at home afterwards thinking, "s**t, i needed toilet paper, too." And if you're in the store and try something new, you can add it to your iPhone OneTrip list on the spot.

3. It's the first column of OneTrip that counts.
The end product is the shopping list and that's where the emphasis should be. I see two ways OneTrip could achieve that. The first is if the comprehensive, personalized list is built during set-up to be the first column, and thereafter the user simply scans down it to see what's checked, and thus needed. Alternately, as the user selects items in a comprehensive list in column two, those items move to create the week's contents of column one. In this case, everything in column one is a needed item, rather than only those items that have been checked. I prefer this latter approach: as the week proceeds, column one grows, and is your shopping list. But column two remains your pool of possibilities.

4. Categories may need to be re-thought.
They could be expanded greatly to suggest many more possibilities for first-time users during setup. They could be imposed on the "comprehensive" list I'm proposing, so that it doesn't become unwieldy. Better yet, perhaps there's a way to weight the elements of the list so that those that are selected most frequently (or always?) move not just to the top of the list, but to a special category on the comlprehensive list, similar to the Finder's "recent folders" category. A user could quickly scan the contents of that category and choose a "select all" button, or un-check just a few that aren't needed at the moment and then select the category, quickly moving onto the final list a large number of staples with minimal input.

My dad's 86 now. He gave up his computer last year when he was exhausted by the spam and viruses choking his Windows machine (I know, we should have gotten him a mac, and that's a different story). But your OneTrip app (applet?) would impress him as a way computers could improve on the methods he developed decades ago. Imagine: in those pre-word processor days, he had to retype the whole list just to add an item in its appropriate section. Now, editing's immediate, and the list is always at hand. A better shopping list! Like the proverbial better moustrap, that is progress. Well done.

peace
terry

[mheidt]

Anybody who thinks this is a good idea has obviously no experience dealing with Cingular's EDGE network. Yes, this is a "smartphone", and that's exactly why processing *everything* remotely makes no sense at all, especially when the data connection is so poor.
Exactly. And even more.
What about the EDGE-Network services themselves?
A real killer-app smartphone needs an sdk that lets 3rd party developer access the Localization-API.
Only be sending this information to those remote services will yield to a new dimension.
Imagine walking through the city with the iPhone sending Twitter messages without changing your location manually all the time.
Therefore the anouncement of Steve was utterly disappointing for me.

[Rot'nApple]

If you mean instead of a paper notepad...

- I don't always have one on me. Pretty much the only things I can guarantee to have on me are my phone, wallet, and keys.

If you mean instead of iPhone's Notes feature...

- You can add, check off, and remove items with one click

And these go for both:

- It's less work to click a few (common) items than to write them down or type them in
- They'll be sorted by category
- When picking from a list, you might see things you wouldn't have thought to write down. "Oh yeah, I also need garlic."
- It's cooler :)

While the "shopping list" app is a nice example, how many of us have either seen or done ourselves, use a cell phone to call home and say, "honey, I'm at the market, look in the firdge, freezer, pantry and cupboard and tell me what we need!" Kinda defeats the purpose of a shopping list when you have the cell phone already in hand, for this app at least. Not saying all "call" home but it does seem to be a growing trend, in my local markets at least.

But still a cool app. Good Job!

[notjustjay]

Website's not working for me, for whatever reason.

I do echo the sentiment that 'online apps', while better than nothing, are not the best solution. I don't think I will have an iPhone (not for the first few years anyway) but I do carry a Palm PDA, and if I wanted a shopping list app, I would want one I could download and run on the PDA. I shouldn't have to find an internet connection (and pay for byte usage) just to remember what kind of cereal I was going to buy.

[Shiesl]

The app goods great but it seems to be done in JavaScript and I thought the iPhone would not work with JavaScript.

[klaxamazoo]

I doubt that iPhone apps will just be a web page that you go to. Steve said that there will be ways to write web apps, not "create specific iPhone webpages." There is no reason that apple can't develop a simple interface for users to upload and manage iPhone apps that are based on html code. Remeber, you can open up web pages locally, they don't have to be read of the internet.

I have used a number of apps that were html based and stored on my local computer. This is probably what Steve had in mind. Anything else would not be as good of a user experience.

[mrial]

Great idea ... now make it list by store, in order. I can't till you how many time I've had to hike across these super stores because I missed an item at the bottom of the list.

[evanm]

if you read the above posts, you would learn that the iphone does not support JAVA. Javascript is somthing completely different.

[EricNau]

Very nice, works quite well.

I guess the only downside is for the developer, because now they have to pay for extra bandwidth, no? ...Is there a way to charge for these web based apps?

[ehurtley]

i dont think people will go out of there way to create web pages just for the iphone, but i would like to know wha it does look like on the iphone

heh. Turns out you couldn't have been more wrong. :D

[Eric1285]

Hehe, way to be one of the first to get an app out there for the iPhone. You're getting lots of publicity :D

[dejo]

I guess the only downside is for the developer, because now they have to pay for extra bandwidth, no? ...Is there a way to charge for these web based apps?
Why certainly. Commonly done through a registration/payment process and then access to the web app via username/password.

[kansaigaijin]

I pointed this out on MacSlash on May 1st, 2007.

http://macslash.org/comments.pl?sid=6680&cid=117733


This is just obvious. As I said before, resident apps and data are so last century. On-line apps and documents are the way to go. Why do you want to have installed apps clogging up your device that has limited storage space? Not accessible to everyone in your workgroup/family?

[MrCrowbar]

For all of those who can't access OneTrip (has it been Macrumored?), here's what it looks like inside of the Java simulator. The simulator is very basic, home button and Safari buttons are just static images, scrolling and double click for zooming all don't work, but it gives you an idea.

Here's what it looks like:

http://tinyurl.com/2cenyu

If you can store those websites/apps locally on the iPhone and have cookies and some options like "disable zooming with pinch or double tap" and "hide Safari interface" this would indeed be a cool way to make apps for the iPhone. If you think about it, widgets are mostly based on web stuff, Safari can render widgets too.

References:
- iPhone simulator: http://hortiz.no/iphone/
- OneTrip shopping list: http://www.mrgan.com/onetrip/index.php

[kansaigaijin]

Hehe, way to be one of the first to get an app out there for the iPhone. You're getting lots of publicity :D

Anyone can make an iPhone app now, just sign up at one of the many Web 2.0 sites and build your app, dabbledb would be a good place to start. I am not connected to them in any way, by the way.

[EricNau]

Why certainly. Commonly done through a registration/payment process and then access to the web app via username/password.
I thought about that, but it sounds like a tedious process for the user to register and then type in his/her username & password ever time they wanted to make a shopping list (whereas, with a "real" app you pay a one time download fee).

[MrCrowbar]

I thought about that, but it sounds like a tedious process for the user to register and then type in his/her username & password ever time they wanted to make a shopping list (whereas, with a "real" app you pay a one time download fee).

Hmmm... why not pay for the app when you register, then store your credentials in iPhones keychain? You wouldn't be able to use the app offline tho :(

[dejo]

I thought about that, but it sounds like a tedious process for the user to register and then type in his/her username & password ever time they wanted to make a shopping list (whereas, with a "real" app you pay a one time download fee).
That's just one option. There are others. Not sure what the "keychain" support on the iPhone will be.

[avigalante]

First off, this is my first post (I usually use the website to browse), so please, no newbie bashing ;)

Anyhow, this may have been mentioned, but, will the iphone.org domain name play a role in the upcoming "safari-based" applications? From my understanding (or lack thereof), these applications will utilize safari as their foundation and then run / execute within safari's browser. In my view, it seems that it would be difficult to download each specified "safari-based" program, whereas it would be easier for programmers to upload their work to the domain name; thus, being easier for Apple to disseminate the programs...

...something to the affect of accessing a website to use the program (does that make sense?); e.g.: iphone.org/ProgramXYZ

Again, not so sure if that's even a feasible possibility, but just a thought...

[dscottbuch]

I thought about that, but it sounds like a tedious process for the user to register and then type in his/her username & password ever time they wanted to make a shopping list (whereas, with a "real" app you pay a one time download fee).

Think iTunes Store

[neven]

Holy cow.

OneTrip has gotten 350,000+ hits this morning... before 10 am PST. Stay strong, my little server!

Thanks everyone for your kind words and suggestions! I'm sorry that I can't answer all the questions posted in this thread - I promise to make a FAQ on the OneTrip website. By the way, I will be moving the website to onetrip.org in the next few days. The current url will redirect there.

If I can make a small plea... does anyone have a tough, PHP-enabled server they could offer some hosting on? Please contact me if you can... I have no intention of making OneTrip a commercial project, so I'd appreciate any help I could get.

[earnjam]

First off, this is my first post (I usually use the website to browse), so please, no newbie bashing ;)

Anyhow, this may have been mentioned, but, will the iphone.org domain name play a role in the upcoming "safari-based" applications? From my understanding (or lack thereof), these applications will utilize safari as their foundation and then run / execute within safari's browser. In my view, it seems that it would be difficult to download each specified "safari-based" program, whereas it would be easier for programmers to upload their work to the domain name; thus, being easier for Apple to disseminate the programs...

...something to the affect of accessing a website to use the program (does that make sense?); e.g.: iphone.org/ProgramXYZ

Again, not so sure if that's even a feasible possibility, but just a thought...

That would be awesome! Apple could definitely do something like that. Like offering widget downloads now. The question is, do they want to offer a place to host apps for free? Theoretically it could be a bandwidth drain on apple, but I'm sure it wouldn't be that bad...definitely not more than something like apple.com/trailers.

[earnjam]

Holy cow.

OneTrip has gotten 350,000+ hits this morning... before 10 am PST. Stay strong, my little server!

Thanks everyone for your kind words and suggestions! I'm sorry that I can't answer all the questions posted in this thread - I promise to make a FAQ on the OneTrip website. By the way, I will be moving the website to onetrip.org in the next few days. The current url will redirect there.

If I can make a small plea... does anyone have a tough, PHP-enabled server they could offer some hosting on? Please contact me if you can... I have no intention of making OneTrip a commercial project, so I'd appreciate any help I could get.

DAAAAANG...Nice work Neven! The app is awesome. You've been labeled all over as the first 3rd party app developer for the iphone! Gotta feel pretty good.

[lasquintanas]

Hi Neven, great start. You had a good idea, and acted on it. We should all be so motivated. I'd like to suggest an alternative to your list above.

Backstory: My father's a retired accountant, so he's meticulous--some would say obsessive--about lists. When I was young he typed up a list of all the items he ever got at the supermarket, with a box in front of each so he could check the ones he needed that week (in those days you typed left-bracket right-bracket like this [] to make a box). He organized them by categories, and then further by the sequence in which those categories appeared on the shelves as he walked through his supermarket! The list fit on one page. He made a bunch of copies of his list, and used one per week. Items could be checked over several days, as the need for them was noted, and when it was time to go to the store the list was ready and tailored for an efficient food-shopping experience.

The list served particularly well when my mom was hospitalized for a year and dad had to run a household, care for an infant daughter, and keep his job.
So what's to learn from him?

1. Shopping lists are personal.
Some posters have noted their desire for a more vegetarian orientation, for example. Others will want to remind themselves of the brand or size of a product they prefer to get. My dad's list was his list. Your type-in function allows that personalization: the question is how it's best utilized.

2. Shopping lists need to be comprehensive.
It's four decades since my dad typed his list, but I think your project could best serve users if it emulated his approach, to develop a personalized list of all the items the user ever purchases at the grocery. Using the app then requires the user to simply access it at any time during the week, click on items as the need for them is noted (no new entry necessary) and then make a final sweep of the pantry and frig before leaving for the store. Note that with this procedure even if you're out and have failed to make that final check, but find yourself driving past the grocery and remembering you need milk, you'll have a reasonably current list with you and won't end up at home afterwards thinking, "s**t, i needed toilet paper, too." And if you're in the store and try something new, you can add it to your iPhone OneTrip list on the spot.

3. It's the first column of OneTrip that counts.
The end product is the shopping list and that's where the emphasis should be. I see two ways OneTrip could achieve that. The first is if the comprehensive, personalized list is built during set-up to be the first column, and thereafter the user simply scans down it to see what's checked, and thus needed. Alternately, as the user selects items in a comprehensive list in column two, those items move to create the week's contents of column one. In this case, everything in column one is a needed item, rather than only those items that have been checked. I prefer this latter approach: as the week proceeds, column one grows, and is your shopping list. But column two remains your pool of possibilities.

4. Categories may need to be re-thought.
They could be expanded greatly to suggest many more possibilities for first-time users during setup. They could be imposed on the "comprehensive" list I'm proposing, so that it doesn't become unwieldy. Better yet, perhaps there's a way to weight the elements of the list so that those that are selected most frequently (or always?) move not just to the top of the list, but to a special category on the comlprehensive list, similar to the Finder's "recent folders" category. A user could quickly scan the contents of that category and choose a "select all" button, or un-check just a few that aren't needed at the moment and then select the category, quickly moving onto the final list a large number of staples with minimal input.

My dad's 86 now. He gave up his computer last year when he was exhausted by the spam and viruses choking his Windows machine (I know, we should have gotten him a mac, and that's a different story). But your OneTrip app (applet?) would impress him as a way computers could improve on the methods he developed decades ago. Imagine: in those pre-word processor days, he had to retype the whole list just to add an item in its appropriate section. Now, editing's immediate, and the list is always at hand. A better shopping list! Like the proverbial better moustrap, that is progress. Well done.

peace
terry

Talk about a well thought out response. We could all learn from that.

Neven, congrats on the app. I look forward to using it and hope you refine it based on user suggestions.

[neven]

Backstory: My father's a retired accountant, so he's meticulous--some would say obsessive--about lists.

...

peace
terry

Terry, thanks for taking the time to put all that together. Very helpful.

[jeremy.king]

If I can make a small plea... does anyone have a tough, PHP-enabled server they could offer some hosting on? Please contact me if you can... I have no intention of making OneTrip a commercial project, so I'd appreciate any help I could get.

Check with AmbitiousLemon...

[bigjohn]

Once SlingPlayer works (however it works), I'm getting the iPhone.

And not before.

(I'm trying to avoid buying things that I hope someday will address my needs)

[RodThePlod]

Here's what it looks like:


Cool - I'm on Windows and so couldn't view the app properly. (I'll download and play with the Windows Safari beta over the weekend).

While creating apps in this way is far from ideal, I think we'll see some pretty innovative stuff being made available - and soon.

Can't wait!

:D

Rod.

[raykhrud]

I'm thinkin on buying iPhone when it come here again.
And thank you for this magnificent web app for Nokia E70, which has screen smaller than iPhone, but with better resolution.

[WannaGoMac]

Just what we need another "IE" creating non-standards conforming web pages.

[neven]

I'm thinkin on buying iPhone when it come here again.
And thank you for this magnificent web app for Nokia E70, which has screen smaller than iPhone, but with better resolution.

That's great.

Re: standards, I *could* make OneTrip cross-browser, but I don't have any burning desire to do so. I'm specifically targeting iPhone users.

[AmbitiousLemon]

Holy cow.

OneTrip has gotten 350,000+ hits this morning... before 10 am PST. Stay strong, my little server!

If I can make a small plea... does anyone have a tough, PHP-enabled server they could offer some hosting on? Please contact me if you can... I have no intention of making OneTrip a commercial project, so I'd appreciate any help I could get.

Check with AmbitiousLemon...

We could host it. We've had a number of sites handle a slashdotting just fine. Just IM,PM or EMail me and we'll set it up ASAP.

[jeremy.king]

We could host it. We've had a number of sites handle a slashdotting just fine. Just IM,PM or EMail me and we'll set it up ASAP.

AL, you rock...as usual.

I miss my AL hosting account, why did I ever leave....

[dscottbuch]

Just what we need another "IE" creating non-standards conforming web pages.

Why do you say that? AFAIK Safari is one of, if not the most standard's compliant browser out there and I've not heard of any 'extentions'? Each browser, by standard, can have different graphics for the standard elements, like drop downs, etc. I greatly prefer Safari's over, say, Firefox but that's not a violation or extension of a standard.

[JPyre]

Remember that from where? A temp cache folder that you wont even be able to view?

Remeber, you can open up web pages locally, they don't have to be read of the internet.


I have a really bad feeling that they'll be bookmarks and require a connection, I just don't understand how they plan to organize apps.... it has to be bookmarks. If there was a touch finder with coverflow we would've heard by now.


oh.... i forgot about the "manage widgets" app, theres your 12th icon. No, really the 12th icon is "Games"..... and why does everybody refer to that as "the 1 missing icon" I see 5 slots.... and only 1 will be there release day, and you can be sure as hell apple wont let a 3rd party icon on the home screen.... they didnt even let google put one, maps is an Apple app.

Also, I'd be willing to say that the reason theres no flash is because Adobe wouldn't release the source to Apple and Apple wont release to Adobe.

[sartinsauce]

Forgive me if someone has already said this in the 157,649 other iPhone threads...

It really makes me sad. It seems there is an inverse relationship between iPhone details and my interest in the device. Similarly, there is certainly an inverse relationship between iPhone details and Apple, Inc stock prices.


Hmmmm, maybe Steve and them stopped listening too soon.

[raykhrud]

That's great.

Re: standards, I *could* make OneTrip cross-browser, but I don't have any burning desire to do so. I'm specifically targeting iPhone users.
Don't you know that both 'Nokia Internet Browser with MiniMapâ„¢' and 'Apple iPhone Safari' are both Konqueror-based, so sometimes (during first versions of both) they even had very similar bugs.

[john7jr]

Just what we need another "IE" creating non-standards conforming web pages.

He chose to make it Safari only by choice, not by a limitation. Since the iPhone (target audience) is a WebKit engine, Safari is a second best choice for accurate layout and function testing. Once iPhones are in the wild better apps will be designed to test these apps. For now, Safari is the best choice.

It would likely function in any browser, since CSS and JS are internet standards, but he chose to stick with Webkit since Firefox (mozilla) doesn't run on the iPhone.

[cdinca]

Didn't see it listed, but does this require the latest version of safari? or does anyone know why this is what I see?

http://www.capitoladesign.com/onetrip.jpg

[john7jr]

Don't you know that both 'Nokia Internet Browser with MiniMapâ„¢' and 'Apple iPhone Safari' are both Konqueror-based, so sometimes (during first versions of both) they even had very similar bugs.

Webkit was based on Konqueror!! I had forgotten that. Nice observation.

[neven]

Didn't see it listed, but does this require the latest version of safari? or does anyone know why this is what I see?

http://www.capitoladesign.com/onetrip.jpg

I started testing OneTrip using the beta release of Safari 3 yesterday. The latest update I uploaded resulted in that ^ behavior in Safari 2. I'll look into it...

iPhone will almost certainly be running the same engine as Safari 3, so the app should hopefully look fine there. I guess my disclaimer at this point is weird - OneTrip runs best on unreleased hardware I don't own and have never used :)

[JPyre]

I think he was refering to me and the fact that I have to have at least 3 different web browsers to do my job. IE for WUpdate, Safari for iPhone, Firefox for everything else, I could go on.... like online schools requiring IE on Win just to be able to goto class.

I'd like to see everything on the web work on everything, is that too much to ask? IMHO any web-browser should display the page the same.

IDK, I guess you could argue its the webmasters' fault, or the browsers lack of(insert here) but I think it's deeper than that....

Why do you say that? AFAIK Safari is one of, if not the most standard's compliant browser out there and I've not heard of any 'extentions'? Each browser, by standard, can have different graphics for the standard elements, like drop downs, etc. I greatly prefer Safari's over, say, Firefox but that's not a violation or extension of a standard.

Just what we need another "IE" creating non-standards conforming web pages.

[dscottbuch]

I think he was refering to me and the fact that I have to have at least 3 different web browsers to do my job. IE for WUpdate, Safari for iPhone, Firefox for everything else, I could go on.... like online schools requiring IE on Win just to be able to goto class.

I'd like to see everything on the web work on everything, is that too much to ask? IMHO any web-browser should display the page the same.

IDK, I guess you could argue its the webmasters' fault, or the browsers lack of(insert here) but I think it's deeper than that....

All I'm saying is don't confuse standards with implementation. IE and other MS products, and other products have extended open standards with proprietary standards, which in MS case become defacto standards due to market share.

If the standards bodies want to further define look and feel, great. Just don't think its going to happen.

[macros]

SO does that mean that 3rd party app cannot be used without internet?
If they can be downloaded and stored localy then it will ge ok, but i was hoping they would allow widgets to be developed

[john7jr]

SO does that mean that 3rd party app cannot be used without internet?

Correct.

Unless you can drag stuff to the memory and call http://localhost in the iPhone browser.

[whateverandever]

Webkit was based on Konqueror!! I had forgotten that. Nice observation.

No, WebKit is basked on KHTML. Konqueror is simply the main KDE browser based on KHTML (which was also used in the KDE Explorer and various other things).

[whateverandever]

Correct.

Unless you can drag stuff to the memory and call http://localhost in the iPhone browser.

Pages like OneTrip can hopefully be saved to local memory and read as such. There's really no need for a web-server to serve up simple html and javascript pages. The file system can do just as well.

However, pages that use AJAX to actually reach out to the Internet for data/storage, Internet connections will obviously be required.

[JPyre]

Anybody else thinking Windows Mobile is more like windows than iPhone is to OSX? I think Steve was extreamly misleading when he mentioned OSX in the same sentence as iPhone. I haven't seen anything beside core image/audio... Safari and iTunes don't count they're Win32 apps now, and last time I checked iphoto was sold seperatly:rolleyes:. That being said, I'm goin to miss alot of things when my verizon contract ends the 30th. Granted, the things I use now on WM crash my phone 60% of the time...... touch TI83 Calc emu, PocketNES, WMV player to name a few, but they still will be missed.

Flip4mac might be nice on iPhone, at least then I could watch some streaming video(insert Edge joke here).... but that would require quicktime which iPhone doesn't reallly have.

It seems like Apple was like "Lets make a widescreen touch iPod w/ wifi" and the phone and browser were just tossed in, this should be called "iPod - Phone" not iPhone, certainly not a PDA or SmartPhone or even based on OSX, its based on itunes, thats it, period.

[dejo]

I think he was refering to me and the fact that I have to have at least 3 different web browsers to do my job. IE for WUpdate, Safari for iPhone, Firefox for everything else...
Why not use Safari for "everything else" as well? :)

[liquidsgi]

I had a windows mobile device (Ipaq) and it was horrible. Although I have a samsung blackjack now and it rocks. If they can get Ajax to run and run well and get some dev peeps really interested, the iphone will blow windows mobile devices out of the water.:apple:

[sbrownla]

Anybody else thinking Windows Mobile is more like windows than iPhone is to OSX? I havent seen anything beside core image/audio yet... Safari and iTunes don't count they're Win32 apps now, and last time I checked iphoto was sold seperatly:rolleyes:. I'm goin to miss alot of things when my contract ends the 30th. Granted, the things I use now on WM crash my phone 60% of the time...... touch TI83 Calc emu, PocketNES, WMV player to name a few, but they still will be missed.

Flip4mac might be nice on iPhone, at least then I could watch some streaming video(insert Edge joke here).... but that would require quicktime which iPhone doesn't reallly have.

At this point yes. Windows Mobile allows directory searches and has just as bad of an attitude, but it WORKS and it's customizeable and allows 3rd party apps. There never was any guarantee that they would work perfectly, but the innovation remains.

As far down as I bow to Neven, it's remains a sincere attempt at rationalizing something that is obviously lacking--painfully--into something with some promise.

Here's to hoping that the iPhone's OS is something that will grow and evolve as Mac OS has done in the past. No guarantees.

[iPoodOverZune]

Remember that from where? A temp cache folder that you wont even be able to view?



I have a really bad feeling that they'll be bookmarks and require a connection, I just don't understand how they plan to organize apps.... it has to be bookmarks. If there was a touch finder with coverflow we would've heard by now.




Spot-on. the mystery app could very well be a finder like app, that contains bookmarks or customizable folders with bookmarks much like we have in Safari. That could integrate the cover flow too. So open the finder and select the app you want, which is really just a link to the webpage. Two to three clicks at the most!

On a side note, would it be possible to store the app off-line (and have it always run in Safari browser, so that other apps are not affected or so) and talk to internet only when desired, thus preventing excessive data calls.

[neven]

As far down as I bow to Neven, it's remains a sincere attempt at rationalizing something that is obviously lacking--painfully--into something with some promise.

I just wanted to clarify something:

I'm primarily a light web developer - this is why I made a web app. My hunch was that there would be no SDK and no allowance for Dashboard Widgets on iPhone in June, so I did the "next best thing" to solve a problem I knew I'd have - I've always wanted a simple shopping list on my phone. I also guessed (correctly, it seems) that Apple would recommend using web apps, so I had a reasonable hope that things like OneTrip wouldn't be just cutesy nerd toys.

Yes, it would have been better if Apple had announced a real SDK for iPhone. Not for me as a developer, but for me as a customer, and for most iPhone users and developers out there.

That said, we're stuck with what we're stuck with... And I'm doing what I can :)

[PekkaR]

I started testing OneTrip using the beta release of Safari 3 yesterday. The latest update I uploaded resulted in that ^ behavior in Safari 2. I'll look into it...

iPhone will almost certainly be running the same engine as Safari 3, so the app should hopefully look fine there. I guess my disclaimer at this point is weird - OneTrip runs best on unreleased hardware I don't own and have never used :)

Just finished reading through the thread. So my Safari 2 isn't crazy! :p

I also couldn't get it to work with that online emulator that someone produced a screenshot with. I got your blocking page for non-Safari browsers. Still loads fine with Nokia smartphones. Here's why:

It's even better than Nokia basing their open source Web Browser for S60 on KTHML and K-javascript-thing. The S60 browser is actually based on Webkit!

WebKit is also the name of the Mac OS X system framework version of the engine that's used by Safari, Dashboard, Mail, and many other OS X applications. WebKit's HTML and JavaScript code began as a branch of the KHTML and KJS libraries from KDE. This website is also the home of S60's S60 WebKit development.

http://webkit.org/

Your shopping list would've worked fine on my Nokia E60 (like someone earlier reported with the E70) except for your Safari 3.0 update that causes the first item column to appear on the right side of the initial screen, making the application too wide for comfort. (E60 screen is 352x416 resolution, or 416x352 when rotating everything 90 degrees.)

I know you said you'll target only the iPhone, which is ok if you want to do so, but at least I'm going to try making something that works just as well on both the iPhone and the most common smartphone browser in the World. ;)

My E60 is using Symbian S60 3rd Edition. Whatever it is that's making Safari 3 (and presumably the iPhone) behave differently may be included in the 3rd Edition Feature Pack 1 firmware release which I really should update to... Maybe someone who has already updated, or is using N95 or N93, can test the app. I know FP1 has other browser updates like showing Flash Lite 2 content within the browser.

Web is meant to be resolution independent so it shouldn't be too hard to make applications scale to window size. Differently sized iPhone screens will come sooner or later anyway.

If you'd like screenshots of your app from a Nokia E60, mail me. (golly at suomi24 dot fi)

Hopefully you get something lasting out of this sudden fame. ;)

[dtich]

SO does that mean that 3rd party app cannot be used without internet?
If they can be downloaded and stored localy then it will ge ok, but i was hoping they would allow widgets to be developed

YES! this is my biggest question about this whole webkit app thing. do we need to be connected to the hosting server to use any kind of non-apple/non-core iphone app???!!? that would be ludicrous. the webkit idea for apps is nice and simple and secure and everything else steve said, but... not if it is also totally inconvenient and hobbling.

and it sort of sucks not to have icons/pages of icons for 3rd party apps, only bookmarks..? that's weak. the widget-maker he demo'd is fantastic, about time, well done, all that... we should have widgets on the iphone, yes. i agree. i guess they feel that compromised security too much...? perhaps they will change their minds.

[lvAnthony]

Hi, not only is this a great application, this begins to shine light on what can be done with the iphone. Like others have said, I think it was great idea to allow developers to develop programs in this manner. I see this as being the way things will be done in the future. It allows for ur programs to be with you everywhere on any medium. Again, good job and I'm excited to see what else you can put together.

One suggestion: When you go to edit the list on the main screen, it would be nice if you can still see what was checked off so you can delete those items.

-----------
Anthony

[neven]

Just wanted to let everyone know that OneTrip is now located at

OneTrip.org (http://onetrip.org)

Many, many, many thanks to Ambitious Lemon for hosting it!

[WannaGoMac]

Why do you say that? AFAIK Safari is one of, if not the most standard's compliant browser out there and I've not heard of any 'extentions'? Each browser, by standard, can have different graphics for the standard elements, like drop downs, etc. I greatly prefer Safari's over, say, Firefox but that's not a violation or extension of a standard.

Then how come this page doesn't work in Firefox when I tried?

[WannaGoMac]

He chose to make it Safari only by choice, not by a limitation. Since the iPhone (target audience) is a WebKit engine, Safari is a second best choice for accurate layout and function testing. Once iPhones are in the wild better apps will be designed to test these apps. For now, Safari is the best choice.

It would likely function in any browser, since CSS and JS are internet standards, but he chose to stick with Webkit since Firefox (mozilla) doesn't run on the iPhone.

lol, wow, Microsoft said the same thing about IE and the world yelled. Yet, you have a choice to make IE only pages or not, and to choose to use those advanced features or not that make it IE only.

To me, this is a real double-standard and I am disappointed in the Mac community that they don't see this and complain (and whine) similarly as they did about IE. I guess everything is fine with crazy standards as long as it is your own standard eh? :)

[neven]

One suggestion: When you go to edit the list on the main screen, it would be nice if you can still see what was checked off so you can delete those items.

That had occurred to me, but I figured that since the item was "grayed out" in addition to being checked, I could hide the checkbox to save horizontal space for the item name, and you could still see what was checked when editing.

[neven]

To me, this is a real double-standard and I am disappointed in the Mac community that they don't see this and complain (and whine) similarly as they did about IE. I guess everything is fine with crazy standards as long as it is your own standard eh? :)

I think you're missing the fact that most developers at WWDC (according to everything I've read) are furious at this web app scheme. They want to develop Cocoa apps based on the code they already have and know, and they're rightly upset.

Apple will have some sort of iPhone SDK at some point, but not on June 29. And until they do, iPhone users have the options of:

a) not using 3rd party apps at all
b) using web apps already out there
c) using web apps made with iPhone in mind

You're free to choose for yourself, but don't be surprised that many will pick c).

[dtich]

Just wanted to let everyone know that OneTrip is now located at

OneTrip.org (http://onetrip.org)

Many, many, many thanks to Ambitious Lemon for hosting it!

that is a pretty little app, well done. i for one could really use that!

i can't see any reason why we won't be able to save this to our iphone 'desktop' or wherever and call it that way. i'm sure they'll be a file system/desktop/finder thing on there to access saved lists and backups and images and such. hopefully it's a pretty customizable finder type setup and we can have folders, etc. so you could open with a bookmark that points to a local file, or the web site. why not?

this is all assuming most of us aren't killed or maimed in the apple att store onslaught that occurs on the 29th.... :)

[neven]

i'm sure they'll be a file system/desktop/finder thing on there to access saved lists and backups and images and such. hopefully it's a pretty customizable finder type setup and we can have folders, etc. so you could open with a bookmark that points to a local file, or the web site. why not?

I'd love for that to be true, but my intuition says, nope...

[strangelogic]

I don't know if it because I'm not using the new safari beta, but it might be more finger friendly if the whole line for an item activated/deactivated the check-box. Having to point to the right side and hit the check-box is very obvious with a mouse but with a finger I will just be happy to hit 'Apples' instead of 'Berries' ... And selecting the items seemed to be the whole item name was in effect the 'selecter'.

It is a great example of what can be done. I'm hoping that there will be someway to store these apps to run in safari on your phone with no internet access. I had assumed there would be by the way SJ described it --- but I'm now assuming that all the people who say 'aint gonna happen' here have researched it - that's a let down.

[dopeytree]

am i imagining it or isnt the iphone supossed to have a cut down version of osx on it?

i.e it should have some kind of finder? and away to store files

if u get sent emails with photos in your guna want to save em etc so for gods sake we should be able to save a webpage/app

im sure someone will find a hack if not, i expect the iphone to be huge like the psp brought loads of homebrew and the wii brought lots of little web pages /widgets the iphone will have its own thing, its going to be a huge hit

just look how the ipod has gone!

[dtich]

I'd love for that to be true, but my intuition says, nope...

yeah, maybe i'm dreaming....

but, then where does sj get off calling it a mobile computer? i think it's crazy if we can't even have local file/app access. what is the point??

hopefully all this is fixable in firm/soft-ware and we won't have to wait long for them to wake up to the issues....

(dreaming again.)

[RedTomato]

Neven, I know you have specifically said you don't want to make it cross browser, but if you could make it work with the IE browser for Windows Mobile 5/6, you would make it work with millions of phones.

HTC make the coolest phones in the world (until the iPhone comes out) and they are the only people who seem to give thought to hardware design and useable slide-out qwerty keyboard for actually doing useful stuff on mobiles. Their qwertyphones run WM 5/6.

[winterspan]

I already wrote a long analysis on why it's a terrible idea to only allow web applications on the iphone. I dont want to rehash that. It is here:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=312939&page=8#192

But what I wanted to point out was the conversation Steve Jobs had at 'All Things Digital':

Steve: I’ll give you a concrete example. I love Google Maps, use it on my computer, you know, in a browser. But when we were doing the iPhone, we thought, wouldn’t it be great to have maps on the iPhone? And so we called up Google and they’d done a few client apps in Java on some phones and they had an API that we worked with them a little on. And we ended up writing a client app for those APIs. They would provide the back-end service. And the app we were able to write ... blows away any Google Maps client. Just blows it away. Same set of data coming off the server, but the experience you have using it is unbelievable. It’s way better than the computer. And just in a completely different league than what they’d put on phones before. And, you know, that client is the result of a lot of technology on the client, that client application. So when we show it to them, they’re just blown away by how good it is. And you can’t do that stuff in a browser.

So people are figuring out how to do more in a browser, how to get a persistent state of things when you’re disconnected from a browser, how do you actually run apps locally using, you know, apps written in those technologies so they can be pretty transparent, whether you’re connected or not. But it’s happening fairly slowly and there’s still a lot you can do with a rich client environment. At the same time, the hardware is progressing to where you can run a rich client environment on lower and lower cost devices, on lower and lower power devices.And so there’s some pretty cool things you can do with clients.

Walt: OK. So you’re saying rich clients still matter...

Steve: What I’m saying is, I think the marriage of some really great [native] client apps with some really great cloud services is incredibly powerful and right now, can be way more powerful than just having a browser on the client.



EXACTLY STEVE!! The Ideal (and only IMO) 3rd-party application support is allowing sandboxed native rich-client applications utilizing Cocoa/Core Animation/Multi-touch SDKs that can also retrieve data/sync to the internet *when its available*!!!

link here: http://d5.allthingsd.com/20070531/d5-gates-jobs-transcript/

[kansaigaijin]

First off, this is my first post (I usually use the website to browse), so please, no newbie bashing ;)

Anyhow, this may have been mentioned, but, will the iphone.org domain name play a role in the upcoming "safari-based" applications? From my understanding (or lack thereof), these applications will utilize safari as their foundation and then run / execute within safari's browser. In my view, it seems that it would be difficult to download each specified "safari-based" program, whereas it would be easier for programmers to upload their work to the domain name; thus, being easier for Apple to disseminate the programs...

...something to the affect of accessing a website to use the program (does that make sense?); e.g.: iphone.org/ProgramXYZ

Again, not so sure if that's even a feasible possibility, but just a thought...


Any domain/website will do. there are already apps that are accessed through browsers, it is just a matter of visiting a web page, and if it it private, logging in. I have set up a site that tracks drivers, trips, and buses for a coach company. Users log-in and they can only see what they are allowed to see. It would be simple to make it optimised for the iPhone.

[gobsofrob]

what sites are good for learning javascript to develop apps for iphone?

thanks in advance.

[dcv]

I've just had a play with your OneTrip app - it's very nice and simple to use :)

Couple of comments though...

- Maybe add a 'Home' button so you don't have to click the back button twice after adding an item.

- When you're in the Edit screen, the 'Edit' button should perhaps change label to 'Back' or 'Home' or 'Previous' or something as having an 'Edit' option there is a little confusing.

- Also in the Edit screen - the 'Clear' option could perhaps do with a warning that it will clear the entire list, or maybe label it 'Clear All'? I missed the little delete icons the first time around!


Apart from that it's great, really nice and simple. Good luck with it!

[Ti_Poussin]

I'm disapointed about the web only application avaible for the iPhone. I got a smart phone (kyocera 7135) and I can install or great stuff for it cause it run palm OS. Why on earth do we would want web base only application on a cell phone where bandwith cost an arm and leg ?!

Seriously, you will want to use as less as possible bandwith on a cell phone for the price. I thought a 4 Go HD would be sweet to put a lot of software for work and on the go.

Right now I'm not sure about the iPhone:
1- Too small hard drive space to be a real iPod (OS take some place)
2- App web base only
3- No replaceable batterie
4- Few carrier
5- Expensive (that would be ok if the point above would have been solve)

I wounder with the last keynote with the so "NEW" desktop and the iTV where Apple is going ?! they make eye candy and no more flexible/featured products. The iTv is a flop because you can't add real stuff to it (video codec, a remote controller for my home desktop, etc..) i would install a small form factor Linux (http://linuxmce.com/ for exemple, because there's many more avaible) on the TV that could do a better job so far at lower price point per Go.

I love OS X, the move to intel is ok, but all those new gadget with a real lack of features expensions is killing me, I don't want to be limited to what I can do with a device, let me expend it's capability to what I want.

I'm a computer Ing by the way, that's why I don't like it to be containt like that by a cie, we already have one Microsoft I don't want a second one!
The 3 thing I hate about Apple thoses day:
1- OS X get many eye candy stuff when there's still a lot of job to be done to multithread it for max performance and a decent server version that still behind
2- Fancy gadget like the iTV, dashboard and iPhone that is lock down experience and expensive crap
3- The "pre-fab" model of working they are puting in everything thoses days

[dicklacara]

Just started reading this thread... so this may already have been addressed.

Why bother storing the data in a cookie... there are lots of easier ways to show/hide data within a web page with much less work and overhead.

Other than that, really nice job!

One thing this points out, tho, is it will be difficult to charge for iPhone apps as the source is available for the world to see (rip off)...

...I think that is why the Developers are upset.

[EagerDragon]

Outstanding job. Clean, simple and very elegant. This is a very handy little widget and I hope to see more from you.

So.....if I am understanding how this works.....web-based widgets will be stored as bookmarks within Safari?

I would think that you can save the actual web page right on the phone, then use file:// on the browser to run it.

[raggedjimmi]

That's actually a very nifty little web app! It'll replace the video diaries I make of shopping lists :D

[raggedjimmi]

Why not? A whole "ecosystem" of web pages has sprung up for the Wii, why not the iPhone?

If the iPhone is a raging success, who knows? Thing is the Wii has been out 7 months and snatched 6-7 million users. I hope the iPhone does half as well as that. Hopefully they'll cut the price then and let me get one :)

[EagerDragon]

WAIT!!!! What if my supermarket doesn't have a mobile signal!!!! AHHHH!!!

It would be smart if these mobile web apps could run locally. Like you download a package that can be stored on the phone rather than run via the internet.

Just sayin!

Once the page is downloaded, the script can continue running if it does not use any network resources. As long as it is reading files and comunicating with other iPhone apps, it should be fine.

Once loaded the page that runs can be save to the iphone and just reload as needed by using file://filename

[TitoChazo@toold]

First off, let me say - VERY NICE! I love the way you can go back and forth and especially love the use of cookies. I visited the site earlier today and came back later in the day and everything I had "checked off" earlier was still there. One comment/suggestion if I may. Is there a way to unclick or unselect an item once you have selected it besides having to go all the way back and selecting the edit button? Is there a way to have an item checked off with a click but also uncheck it with another click. Basically an "on" and "off" function? Just curiuos. Besides that, I think everything works great.

P.S. Have you seen this site (http://davidcann.com/iphone/) as well? Pretty cool. I'm loving the all the work I'm seeing so early in the stages of this iPhone web app stuff.

[iPoodOverZune]

that is a pretty little app, well done. i for one could really use that!

i can't see any reason why we won't be able to save this to our iphone 'desktop' or wherever and call it that way. i'm sure they'll be a file system/desktop/finder thing on there to access saved lists and backups and images and such. hopefully it's a pretty customizable finder type setup and we can have folders, etc. so you could open with a bookmark that points to a local file, or the web site. why not?


I'd love for that to be true, but my intuition says, nope...

Actually, my intuition says that there would be something like that. Could be this is the mystery app/finder system. You could store all the bookmarks (optionally in different folders). And to start the process, apple may provide a small list of useful web-applets. Now the question remains whether those would be just bookmarks or would they allow caching of websites/working offline thing. The former would not consume much memory space but the latter will. Both things are good in the long run for iPhone stability and security until Apple presents another choice.
I think they thought about this since they would probably dont want the consumer to fill the memory with crapplets, especially since you already will have some music and possibly videos there. So Apple started out with this option to build a market (to whatever extent that would be) that would be a good trade-off for now especially when it is important to build the reputation of product in terms of stability and then later venture for something more ambitious. I for one dont want to get lured into crapplets (since we all fall into "temptation" :) ) once I have this device towards the end of this year.
iPhone FTW ;)

[neven]

Why bother storing the data in a cookie... there are lots of easier ways to show/hide data within a web page with much less work and overhead.

Cookies are being used only to store your list so it could be loaded next time you visit OneTrip.

One thing this points out, tho, is it will be difficult to charge for iPhone apps as the source is available for the world to see (rip off)...

It really depends on the app. OneTrip was made to be as small and light as possible, so it doesn't talk to the server once it's loaded. However, the whole thing is output by PHP (makes it easier to maintain).

A more complex application would almost certainly post back to the server often or use AJAX; those are combined client/server technologies and having the client code wouldn't really mean that you have the whole app (or the most significant part of it).

Look at it this way - you can't go out and rip off Google Maps even though a large part of it is client-side code.

[iPoodOverZune]

there is one more here. Even nicer! I bet you will like this on iPhone better than on your desktop.

http://davidcann.com/iphone/

[surferfromuk]

To paraphrase SJ 'It's a sweet little App!'' :)

Nice work but thought you might like to know it didn't work on Windows Safari under XP. I just got a text list of the first screen. Works great on my mac though!.

[fjleon]

Hey neven, i never log in here, but wanted to post this. I understand that you don't want/have the time to make the web page cross browser, but at least you could write legal javascript.

For example,


function hideAllButtons()
{
btnAdd.style.display = 'none';
btnEdit.hide();
btnEditing.hide();
btnBack.hide();
btnHome.hide();
btnClear.hide();
}


You can't use id's without using document.getElementById("id_goes_here"). Otherwise stuff will break. I am amazed that safari can read that, given that they are standard nazis.

[scottydude]

Heres a mockup of the app on Apple's picture of the iPhone:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/OneTrip.jpg

[neven]

Hey neven, i never log in here, but wanted to post this. I understand that you don't want/have the time to make the web page cross browser, but at least you could write legal javascript.

For example,


btnClear.hide();
}


You can't use id's without using document.getElementById("id_goes_here"). Otherwise stuff will break. I am amazed that safari can read that, given that they are standard nazis.

Apparently, you can use IDs without going through document.getElementById(). It's not "legit", but it works in Safari and it keeps the code smaller, and I've never understood the reasoning behind document.getElementById.

I don't see what the problem is as long as it runs in Safari. I'll get to updating it, but it would change nothing for the end users so it's not a priority.

// Edit: sorry, that was harsh of me. You're right, but I was trying to figure out a ton of other things first. I'm legitimizing it.

[ozthegweat]

Heres a mockup of the app on Apple's picture of the iPhone:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/OneTrip.jpg

Didn't you forget the Safari address bar on top?

[scottydude]

Didn't you forget the Safari address bar on top?

No, if you watch the Apple promo vids the safari address bar disappears after you interact with the website in this semi-fullscreen sorta mode.

[ozthegweat]

No, if you watch the Apple promo vids the safari address bar disappears after you interact with the website in this semi-fullscreen sorta mode.

As I see it, the address bar only disappears when you scroll down (just as it does when viewing a webpage like the NYT). When you are on top, the address bar is still visible.

These three pictures are three consecutive frames from the keynote, he just begins to scroll down. You can see the adress bar disappear:

[kdarling]

Since there will be no third-party apps for iPhone in June, I thought I'd try creating a web app that would run like a widget on iPhone. You would surf over to it in Safari on iPhone, and it would fill the screen nicely to look like a "real" iPhone app. By that I mean, it shouldn't get scaled down, and it's small and compact

Good for you! But... here's some friendly advice:

Display for testing purposes in a window that's iPhone size, 2" x 3". Perhaps even cut out a piece of paper that size and keep it by your computer to remind you how tiny it is.

You'll find that the buttons aren't tall enough for touchscreens. You need about 1/3 - 1/2" height per button, ideally the latter.

Therefore you might be better off having two columns of buttons.

Optional text entry should ideally be the first item, as other apps do. That's so it doesn't have to move up too oddly when the keyboard appears.

I'm afraid that I used your app as an example of what NOT to do. Don't take that badly, though, since very few out there have any touchscreen experience on handhelds.

http://groups.google.com/group/iphonewebdev

Oh, and have you tried saving the data in a cookie? (Does Safari allow local cookies if running from disk? Some browsers don't and I haven't tested Safari yet.)

Cheers, Kev

[SAMTATSICPRO]

hey, neven I just had an idea, that when you check off an item and you have a big list maybe an overlay can show up for about 2 seconds letting you know how many more items left to shop for. " 20 items left" example! then it would fade out. Once the list would be complete also would be cool to ask if theres anything else you need? and it would show some suggested items according to the list, then maybe say time to check out. and start a new list option.

[neven]

You'll find that the buttons aren't tall enough for touchscreens. You need about 1/3 - 1/2" height per button, ideally the latter.

This has occurred to me. I'm working on it.

Optional text entry should ideally be the first item, as other apps do. That's so it doesn't have to move up too oddly when the keyboard appears.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. First item in what?

Oh, and have you tried saving the data in a cookie? (Does Safari allow local cookies if running from disk? Some browsers don't and I haven't tested Safari yet.

Yes, OneTrip saves the list in a cookie.

Thanks for your feedback!

[StrayRooster]

neven, we've added your app to our site under the Apps section. Your app looks great!

http://www.iphonefanclub.com/

[AmbitiousLemon]

Good for you! But... here's some friendly advice:

Display for testing purposes in a window that's iPhone size, 2" x 3"...

This would only help if your monitor has the same pixel density as the iPhone. The iPhone is pretty dense (in a good way!), so its going to be very difficult to address these sorts of usability issues without a phone or a display with the same density in front of you.

[tk421]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. First item in what?


From what I can gather, it means put it at the top of the list. That way, when the keyboard interface appears on the bottom of the screen, it won't cover up anything important or make things "move up too oddly."

Of course, that's completely irrelevant since your app slides over to a new screen to enter in anything. :confused: I wonder if this person looked very closely at your OneTrip. They obviously didn't read this thread or look around your website much, since they were asking about cookies.

In any case, I like the new features. "Saved Items" in particular is very nice.

[lilnyc]

Since there will be no third-party apps for iPhone in June, I thought I'd try creating a web app that would run like a widget on iPhone. You would surf over to it in Safari on iPhone, and it would fill the screen nicely to look like a "real" iPhone app. By that I mean, it shouldn't get scaled down, and it's small and compact

Here it is:

OneTrip (http://www.mrgan.com/onetrip/) - an iPhone shopping list.

It will only work in Safari (obviously). Comments? Do you think it will be a worthwhile effort to create such iPhone-ready websites?

Thumbs up. I had fu with your app, and I really need a list like that at the grocery store. I'm one who lets my stomach do the talking, picks up everything in the store and acts shocked at the register :)

[neven]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I've completely rewritten OneTrip - I hope I've addressed most of your issues (cross-browser compatibility, new features.) Many thanks to kdarling for his comments.

Here it is - OneTrip (http://onetrip.org/)

[applehero]

Very cool, like the mods. Excellent work.

[neven]

Just a quick thread bump for those who are following - I launched a new website for my present and future iPhone web apps. Here it is:

http://onetrip.org/apps

It will serve different content depending on whether you view it from iPhone or not. I hope you find this useful.

[neven]

onetrip.org/apps (http://onetrip.org/apps) and my two apps on it work perfectly on iphone. I'm really happy. W00t!

[Cleverboy]

onetrip.org/apps (http://onetrip.org/apps) and my two apps on it work perfectly on iphone. I'm really happy. W00t! Agreed. You are one of the only app creators who didn't screw it up. :) Nice job. The application list site just became a writhing mess and crashed my iPhone a couple of times, even after I was able to click through to a few different sites.

~ CB

[Yankees 4 Life]

this app looks pretty tight on my iphone

[Krevnik]

Agreed. You are one of the only app creators who didn't screw it up. :) Nice job. The application list site just became a writhing mess and crashed my iPhone a couple of times, even after I was able to click through to a few different sites.

~ CB

Ding, ding, ding. :)

OneTrip went with simple and efficient, and did it very well...

David Cann went a little too fancy, and because of it, his apps aren't usable at all on the iPhone. He tried to emulate behaviors that the iPhone was going to provide, and because of it, you can't scroll using iDigg at all. Add in the display issues, and it is just a mess.

Hats off to you neven.

[badtzmaru]

very cool! simple and easy to use. it looks great on the phone.

[Sijmen]

Pictures please? :D

[michelle21]

I don't think existing websites should be made iPhone-friendly, and it probably wouldn't be worth anyone's time to create an iPhone-optimized blog or online store, but I really hope that it's easy to make things look and feel "native" on iPhone. I can think of a number of simple widgets like this that I'd really like to have on my phone - so until we get actual widgets, I hope this will do.

Why not, if notice apple has done that, if the iphone really catches on, and other companies imitate. your site's javascript can look for the iphone user agent and configure the site accordingly. It does not cost that much in terms of programming .

Do you think other cell companies are going to sit idle, I hear there's run on photo copiers.

[neven]

Here's a pic of OneTrip on my iPhone:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1418/668416484_53aaf8ab85.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/neven/668416484/)

I rolled out some fairly significant updates over the weekend - I hope you like them.

[Sijmen]

Aww makes me want to get an iPhone even more!

[Cleverboy]

I rolled out some fairly significant updates over the weekend - I hope you like them.Doh! I was looking forward to checking out the updates, but then it stopped working. The "Email to iPhone" button pulls up an error that says "Safari can't open the page. the error was: "lost network connection" (NSURLErrorDomains:-1005)". In Safari, I get an error that simply says "Safari can't open the page." In Firefox, I'm prompted to download a page, and that page "email.php" is empty. Not quite sure what that feature is supposed to do, and its not described anywhere. You probably shouldn't have to clear your shopping cart just to get to "More Info" on the program (which doesn't have as much info as it had before).

Also, I don't think giving up the "loupe" is a bad thing, but I think the app shouldn't be capable of accidentally resizing on a double-tap.

Also, I read about your "animation" woes. You should talk to CyberGeek here on the forums. He's does a rather nice "Tip" calculator, and has animated "tips" on the bottom. He found out something pretty interesting about WHY animations are sometimes less than effective and what he did to resolve it.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=325046

~ CB

[neven]

Thanks, Cleverboy -

- the email bug is fixed
- I agree I should have a better info page
- preventing resizing doesn't seem doable without also preventing the landscape mode from working properly
- Still looking into animations, still not happy with the performance.