sue the international TB terrorist? [Archive]

View Full Version : sue the international TB terrorist?

clevin

May 31, 2007, 09:32 PM

the guy risks other ppl's health for his own selfish purpose of "getting treatment in the US". can't let him go easy.
Mr. Andrew Speaker, a divorce lawyer http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:eNOT-m2Ih1oC-M:http://atlantadivorce.poweradvocates.com/images/andrew.jpg

Ugg

May 31, 2007, 10:58 PM

zimv20

May 31, 2007, 11:05 PM

as unfortunate and dangerous as the situation is, from what i understand, he broke no laws.

SMM

May 31, 2007, 11:22 PM

It was very irresponsible of him, of that there's no doubt. Anyone with TB should not be traveling on a plane, especially when it was suggested by his doctor that he shouldn't.

To be fair, he didn't find out that he multi-resistant TB until he was in Rome, but it was pretty slimy of him to fly back via Canada. If anyone else on those flights catch it, he and his wife and father in law should be sued for every penny they have.

I have heard a great deal of conflicting media accounts of this. If he did knowingly endanger others, he is definitely accountable for the consequences.

BTW (off subject): I had thought you tar was a picture of Stonewall Jackson, or another Confederate General. I swear there is one that is an exact likeness. I have travelled to Cornwall on two occasions. I can hardly wait to return. It is one of my favorite places on earth.

kalisphoenix

May 31, 2007, 11:30 PM

Eeeenteresting. *watches*

SMM

May 31, 2007, 11:41 PM

Ugg

May 31, 2007, 11:54 PM

I have heard a great deal of conflicting media accounts of this. If he did knowingly endanger others, he is definitely accountable for the consequences.

BTW (off subject): I had thought you tar was a picture of Stonewall Jackson, or another Confederate General. I swear there is one that is an exact likeness. I have travelled to Cornwall on two occasions. I can hardly wait to return. It is one of my favorite places on earth.

Knowingly transmitting an infectious disease has been a crime for a long time in many communities. Think of HIV. He knew that he had TB and sitting in an airplane for hours on end is a prime place to transmit it. The guy isn't stupid, just extremely selfish.

Off Topic

I just recently found out how he lost his eye.

Young Peter was full of piss and vinegar. He worked as a blacksmith and in those days, smithies had large windows that could be opened in the summertime to cool the place down. One day rather than entering the smithy through the door he decided to leap through one of the open windows. Unfortunately, there was a hook hanging from one of the rafters...

I was in Cornwall 19 years ago but am looking forward to going again, maybe next year. It'll take on a whole new meaning this time around.

SMM

Jun 1, 2007, 12:32 AM

Knowingly transmitting an infectious disease has been a crime for a long time in many communities. Think of HIV. He knew that he had TB and sitting in an airplane for hours on end is a prime place to transmit it. The guy isn't stupid, just extremely selfish.

Off Topic

I just recently found out how he lost his eye.

Young Peter was full of piss and vinegar. He worked as a blacksmith and in those days, smithies had large windows that could be opened in the summertime to cool the place down. One day rather than entering the smithy through the door he decided to leap through one of the open windows. Unfortunately, there was a hook hanging from one of the rafters...

I was in Cornwall 19 years ago but am looking forward to going again, maybe next year. It'll take on a whole new meaning this time around.

Off Topic:

Ouch! Be sure to go to St Ives and have a cornish pie at the 'First and Last' near Land's End! There is also a church near the pub. It dates back to the dark ages. A very interesting place to visit.

Aniej

Jun 1, 2007, 12:53 AM

the guy risks other ppl's health for his own selfish purpose of "getting treatment in the US". can't let him go easy.

What has had a far worse impact on public discourse in the United States is the hyper-sensationalization of everything and a race to the bottom in terms of bs popular culture dominating the news. Using terrorist to describe this guy is a classic example. Not only does it completely fail to recognize some widely accepted aspects of a terrorist, i.e., someone engaging in violent and disruptive behavior to further a political, social or religious cause. This guy is a tool, not a terrorist. I don't mean to come down so forcefully on you clevin regarding this point, but the ease at which people cast a title, such as terrorist, war on terror or you are not supporting the troops, is shameful and stifling of the ideals sought by the founding fathers articulated through the First Amendment.

Aniej

Jun 1, 2007, 12:59 AM

Just saw this one too

Knowingly transmitting an infectious disease has been a crime for a long time in many communities. Think of HIV. He knew that he had TB and sitting in an airplane for hours on end is a prime place to transmit it. The guy isn't stupid, just extremely selfish.

Your quote does a better job explaining the fallacy with your reasoning than even I could. Namely, there has been no transmission of any disease yet, not even close. Risk of exposure doesn't equal transmission. You wouldn't charge a man carrying a gun with homicide simply because he could shoot someone. Moreover, I suspect, from a quick reading of what facts are available, the mental state (mens rea) would at best raise to the level of negligence or wanton disregard, but not intentional. In the HIV hypo the intent would be based on knowledge of the disease coupled with the willful transmission (note this is a layman description so don't point out missing elements if there are any of my fellow attorneys out there reading).

Ugg

Jun 1, 2007, 01:40 AM

Your quote does a better job explaining the fallacy with your reasoning than even I could. Namely, there has been no transmission of any disease yet, not even close. Risk of exposure doesn't equal transmission. You wouldn't charge a man carrying a gun with homicide simply because he could shoot someone. Moreover, I suspect, from a quick reading of what facts are available, the mental state (mens rea) would at best raise to the level of negligence or wanton disregard, but not intentional. In the HIV hypo the intent would be based on knowledge of the disease coupled with the willful transmission (note this is a layman description so don't point out missing elements if there are any of my fellow attorneys out there reading).

Nowhere did I say he transmitted the disease. However, if it turns out he did, he has a lot of strikes against him. Putting people at risk is not a smart decision, especially when his decision to do so was based on selfish behaviour.

clevin

Jun 1, 2007, 09:07 AM

Clevin, loose the 'terrorist' tag, OK. This Madison Avenue tagging of everything is really nauseating.

sure, i was hoping for a terrorists fatigue, the more u use it, the less credit it will have.

takao

Jun 1, 2007, 09:49 AM

the question would be what legislation would be concerned anyway after all it happend on different airlines and airports where local laws apply

and tuberculoses is in many if not most countries in europa on the list of diseases which have to be reported to relevant department of health

which in some cases including tubercoloses might involved bans on being in closed environments... he doesn't have to transmit the disease to getting sued
after all was he wearing at least a face mask to protect others from it ? i think not ...

oh and he did knew he had it _before he flew to europe_, he was informed in rome by the US CDC that he has to immediatly go into medical treatment in italy, which he happily ignored after visiting paris and prague

in fact combined with canada and US that makes him sue-able in up to 5 countries and not only 1

Swarmlord

Jun 1, 2007, 10:15 AM

<snip>

in fact combined with canada and US that makes him sue-able in up to 5 countries and not only 1

Suffice to say that his lame apology isn't going to bail him out of his mess. Depending on test and his progress with the disease he may find himself a permanent resident of a negative pressure hospital room.

I'd sure like to know more about how he supposedly contracted this disease.

Lyle

Jun 1, 2007, 10:29 AM

aristobrat

Jun 1, 2007, 10:31 AM

I'd sure like to know more about how he supposedly contracted this disease.
I think his father-in-law didn't approve of the marriage.

TB Patient's Father-In-Law Is CDC Tuberculosis Researcher (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13420314/detail.html)

Did anyone else see his interview this morning on "Good Morning America"? I missed it because I was getting ready for work, but my wife saw it. She said that (if you believe Mr. Speaker's story) the doctors that he had talked to gave him dodgy advice at best about how much of a risk his illness actually is. And they had the doctors on tape saying this.
That's what I heard too -- something to the effect that they told him he wasn't communicable, etc. But why on earth would they have that caught on tape??

Swarmlord

Jun 1, 2007, 10:32 AM

Did anyone else see his interview this morning on "Good Morning America"? I missed it because I was getting ready for work, but my wife saw it. She said that (if you believe Mr. Speaker's story) the doctors that he had talked to gave him dodgy advice at best about how much of a risk his illness actually is. And they had the doctors on tape saying this.

I heard that he claimed to have taped some of the conversations. Who the heck carries around a tape recorder and knows to record a phone conversation? Something's fishy about this.

Lyle

Jun 1, 2007, 10:39 AM

Who the heck carries around a tape recorder and knows to record a phone conversation?Did you momentarily forget that he's a lawyer? A divorce lawyer?

Queso

Jun 1, 2007, 10:40 AM

If just one person contracts TB thanks to his stupidity he should face criminal charges.

What an idiot. He was in Italy, which is hardly the medical equivalent of Sierra Leone. Selfish, stupid man.

Ugg

Jun 1, 2007, 12:36 PM

I'd sure like to know more about how he supposedly contracted this disease.

Do you doubt he has it?

MDR TB is pretty rare so it does seem odd, maybe he traveled a lot?

Swarmlord

Jun 1, 2007, 01:12 PM

Do you doubt he has it?

MDR TB is pretty rare so it does seem odd, maybe he traveled a lot?

No, I don't doubt he has it, but I'm curious about the source of it. Something like that isn't exactly common. You get it two ways: come in contact with someone that has it or get exposed to it living in the conditions where it exists. If he caught it from exposure to someone else, then I hope they find that person too before he or she infects another. If he was living in the squalid conditions necessary to incubate this type of illness, then I hope they discover where it is and prevent others from getting it.

Desertrat

Jun 1, 2007, 07:06 PM

I had TB. Got it in Korea; it was discovered on a routine chest XRay some two years later. I spent some six months in the "bug ward" at Fitzsimmons Army Hospital in Denver.

If it's only in the infiltration stage, it's very unlikely to be contagious without French kissing and coughing at the same time. Mine was only an infiltration, and none of the guys in my barracks got it, nor did my girlfriend of several months.

If it's open lesions, different story. Any sneeze or cough can cause the bacilli to exit the lungs.

My understanding is that this guy is in the infiltration stage.

'Rat

zimv20

Jun 1, 2007, 07:19 PM

maybe he traveled a lot?

i was watching the news the other night, and they mentioned he'd been to peru (forget why) and vietnam (charity work).

.Andy

Jun 1, 2007, 07:23 PM

The two ways are of getting MDR TB (1) by inhalation of MDR myobacterium coughed up by someone else with active disease and (2) by being infected with myobacterium and it acquiring a MDR phenotype through incomplete compliance to antibiotic schedules.

We try to get around point number 2 above in developed countries by using direct observed treatment short course (or DOTS), where you're quarantined (usually at home) and have a community nurse/health care provider turn up every day to give you your antibiotic treatment. This antibiotic treatment is a mixture of a number of antibiotics to ensure that the myobacterium are unable to become MDR - i.e. it attacks them from a number of different angles to ensure greater obliteration. Unfortunately in third would countries MDR myobacterium can arise due to (a) non-compliance taking antibiotics due to no DOTS (b) unreliable access to or the prohibitive cost of antibiotics, (c) people not taking a course of a number of antiobiotics simultaneously which therefore increases the chance of MDR arising.

These days the BCG vaccination is not really recommended as it's doesn't seem to provide comprehensive immunity and/or long term immunity to TB. I can speak for Australia that even doctors aren't required or recommended to have BCG shots (we're required to have everything else though), even though exposure to TB patients is inevitable. We just ensure we don't have active TB by getting yearly chest X rays. Personally I'm positive for exposure to TB by mantoux test so there's a good chance I've got latent disease in my body. Luckily only a very small percentage of people ever go on to have active TB and are infective to others, and it's usually those who are immunosuppressed such as cancer patients or people with HIV.

In this case it would be interesting how this guy was diagnosed. First line of diagnosis is from chest xray and microscopic examination of sputum samples for myobacteria, which is inefficient and not guaranteed to be successful even in someone with active TB. The gold-standard diagnosis for someone with active TB (and the only way to determine MDR) is growing up the myobacterium from sputum samples and testing their antibiotic sensitivity. This can take 6 weeks plus due to myobacterias slow growth rate. That's a long time to wait around in another country. It's not a simple case of a quick test.

Desertrat

Jun 1, 2007, 08:03 PM

.Andy

Jun 1, 2007, 08:30 PM

Andy, after the infiltration was discovered in my chest XRay, they did a "skin pop" on my forearm. I don't know what was pushed under the skin, but it turned a bit red and very slightly raw within a day or three. (50 years ago, so I don't remember every detail). Do you have any such similar "skin pop" deal?
You remember well for 50 years ago Rat :D. The skin-pop test is what's called a Mantoux or tuberculin test. It's a first line to determine if you've had exposure to myobacteria. We inject what's a purified protein from the myobacteria just under the skin to see how you're body's immune system responds. As you describe, if someone has been previously exposed to TB they will get a raised lump on their skin around 48 hours after the injection. This is your immune memory cells homing to the site of injection and mounting an immune response against the myobacterium protein which causes the bump.

It's a good screening test to see if people have been exposed although there are some conditions that give a false positive (such as previous BCG vaccination for TB). If someone is positive we start off from there checking them for symptoms, especially a chest X-ray to make sure they don't have active disease in their lungs (where the lung tissue is getting broken down) which could be fatal for them. Like I said above though only a very small fraction of people who are exposed to myobacterium ever go on to having active TB. It's much more likley in people with HIV these days.

Treatment back then was PAS (para amina sulphate) and INH (Iso-nicotinic acid hydrazide). I think I got the names right. :) PAS was sour stuff...

'Rat
To be honest I'm not entirely familiar with either of those drugs Rat (still only a lowly student :o). Although as you describe your disease and the 6 months in hospital it sounds like you either had quite active disease or the drugs for treatment at that stage were a little slower acting than they are today. It'd be really unlikely to have people hospitalised that long now days.

Desertrat

Jun 1, 2007, 08:55 PM

I had a small infiltration, about fingernail size, at the top of my right lung. Never bothered me at all.

The treatment period was pretty much standard, SFAIK. I went on to a VA hospital for about a month, and then home. I stayed with the PAS for two years. Followup checkups with the VA for another three years. No further problems.

While in Fitzsimmons, some guys with truly serious problems had lungs or parts of lungs removed. "Zippers", as we called the post-operation scars.

Mediterranean peoples are least susceptible. Blacks and Indians are among the most susceptible. I'm tall and blond, sorta in the middle of susceptibility. We had one Eskimo kid in the ward; they watched him like hawks.

TB was pretty well a dead issue here by the 1970s. The influx of people from third world countries has now introduced strains which do not respond to the medicines of old. A serious problem area for us is that of all lands south of our southern border; a too-high percentage of illegals are carriers.

But, other stuff is reappearing. After WW II, the general improvements in sanitation meant the end of such things as ringworm and nits; these are reappearing since the old Hippie era and the general decline in sanitation.

'Rat

.Andy

Jun 1, 2007, 09:57 PM

I had a small infiltration, about fingernail size, at the top of my right lung. Never bothered me at all. Untreated these might eventually have started to bother you if it eroded into the lymphatics or blood vessels in your lungs. In this case it would have spread throughout your body and you'd get what is called milliary TB, as the infection is so widespread it looks like you've got small bits of millet throughout your organs. There's a less favorable diagnosis with milliary TB as it's usually picked up quite late, with infiltration into the brain, liver, and other organs common.

Mediterranean peoples are least susceptible. Blacks and Indians are among the most susceptible. I'm tall and blond, sorta in the middle of susceptibility. We had one Eskimo kid in the ward; they watched him like hawks.
Due to large epedimiological studies this really isn't thought to be the case anymore (although there appears to be some genetic susceptibility although this is extremely rare). The historic correlation with ethnicity was more due to socioecononomic status, and that correlation unfortunately still pertains today. So although people from different regions/ethnicity might have a higher prevalence of TB infection, there is little to link this with ethnitic susceptability.

The current established risk factors are immunosupression (especially HIV), malnutrition, advanced age, crowded living conditions, poor access to healthcare, working/travelling to areas where people are at high risk of TB, and of course being exposed to someone with active TB.

miloblithe

Jun 1, 2007, 11:13 PM

I heard that he claimed to have taped some of the conversations. Who the heck carries around a tape recorder and knows to record a phone conversation? Something's fishy about this.

He and his father (also a lawyer) taped conversations with his doctors to distinguish between, apparently, being advised not to travel and being ordered not to travel. In other words, he knew exactly what he was doing.

This man is scum.

Desertrat

Jun 2, 2007, 12:42 AM

:) Like I said, it's been 50 years. I gotta assume the medi-folks have learned a little.

'Rat

zioxide

Jun 2, 2007, 12:48 AM

he should be prosecuted for felony reckless endangerment

Ugg

Jun 2, 2007, 01:35 AM

The NYT has a good article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/02/health/02tick.html?ex=1338436800&en=a55a2f3649f9e7c2&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss) on this.

It seems as though not only did Speaker willfully disobey every bit of advice that he got from every source but the CDC along with every single American official involved has totally and utterly failed to do their duty. In the article they also mention that only the Americans on the flights concerned are being contacted by the US, non Americans need to be contacted by their own governments.

The US bailed in the first place and is bailing again when it comes to taking responsibility. Had this been a Canadian you can bet your booties that a major international incident would have erupted.

This case underlines a number of issues that are really scary when it comes to border security. He was highly educated, reasonably attractive, getting married and seemingly healthy. I think US officials were too afraid of getting slapped down by a bunch of slimeball lawyers than taking their jobs seriously.

It's a prime signal to all terrorists, that in order to cross borders with impunity and ignore official requests; become an attorney.

clevin

Jun 2, 2007, 09:08 AM

That ugly (probably a fake) apology on GMA, if apology is enough, what do we need police for anyway?

Desertrat

Jun 2, 2007, 12:02 PM

Trying to figure the guy's motivations, I'd guess that he could have been playing Cleopatra, de queen of denial. That's easy to do in the early stages of a life-threatening disease when it has yet to degrade your physical abilities.

My TB had never bothered me, and at age 23 my first reactions were of resentment at the need for all that bed rest. Sure, I got over it, just like the other guys. Had I been a civilian, I might have "done stupid".

Decades later, when I figured out I had cancer, I joked with the doctors that I was gonna stay in Cleopatra mode right up until the day of surgery. But, I was a lot older and knew what was going on. I didn't do stupid.

This guy? Young, lawyer-type, money...Apparently arrogant, and did stupid.

'Rat