Clock ticking to Israel's 'destruction'

[obeygiant]

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad launched a new verbal attack on Israel, saying a "countdown" has begun that will end with Lebanese and Palestinian militants destroying the Jewish state.

In a speech to mark the 18th anniversary of the death of revolutionary founder Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the President said last summer's war between Israel and Lebanese militant group Hezbollah started the process.

"In Lebanon, the corrupt, arrogant powers and the Zionist regime did all they could in an unfair 33-day war. But after 60 years its (Israel's) greatness fell apart," Iranian media quoted Mr Ahmadinejad as saying.

"The countdown to this regime's destruction started through the hands of Hezbollah's children," he said in a speech to visiting foreign guests in Tehran.

"We will witness the destruction of this regime in the near future thanks to the endeavours of all Palestinian and Lebanese fighters."

Mr Ahmadinejad sparked outrage shortly after coming to power in 2005 for saying that Israel should be "wiped from the map" and then repeatedly predicting that the state would disappear.

Iranian officials have expressed bewilderment over the uproar caused by the comments, saying he was merely restating one of Khomeini's central beliefs that the Jewish state was doomed to destruction.

The President went on to court further controversy when he labelled the Holocaust as a "myth" and invited several researchers who have played down the mass slaughter of Jews in World War II to a Tehran conference.

But in recent months, Mr Ahmadinejad has largely avoided rhetorical outbursts against the Jewish state amid public criticism from moderate quarters over his provocative comments.

Despite having no borders with Israel, Iran has become one of the most vocal backers of militant groups fighting the Jewish state and its leaders pepper their speeches with attacks against the "Zionist regime".

- AFPABC NEWS (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200706/s1941130.htm)

So after they destroy they jewish state, then what? Free donuts?

[Dont Hurt Me]

Most likely they will go back to beating and stoning woman. Many in the U.S. wouldnt be upset if Bush took out this guy. He better be careful cause Bush has nothing to loose.

[srf4real]

"When you see the abomination that makes desolate standing in the Holy Place, let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

~Jesus
(Mark 14, i think):o :cool:

[clevin]

does the existence of israel in middle east have any positive effects? why not move them to Utah?

[Swarmlord]

does the existence of israel in middle east have any positive effects? why not move them to Utah?

The short answer is yes.

I'd prefer moving the problem people elsewhere myself.

[samh004]

Wont he be upset when the clock stalls...

[Desertrat]

"does the existence of israel in middle east have any positive effects?"

Certainly. Israel is an example of what industrious people can create in an area where generations of retards could only pick poop with the camels. It showed what a rational society could achieve insofar as religious freedom. And it has shown that a people, determined to no longer be subject to pogroms, can overcome overwhelming odds.

As Abba Eban said in the UN in 1967, "There are three million Jews. There are 200 million Arabs. Is the distinguished delegate from Egypt trying to say we surrounded them?"

"Masada shall not fall again." is as good a national motto as one could wish for. It goes along with the sign at Dachau, "Never again."

One of these days, Ahmadinejad's gonna let his alligator mouth overload his canary butt and wind up looking like he's been culling bobcats.

'Rat

[yojitani]

"does the existence of israel in middle east have any positive effects?"

Certainly. Israel is an example of what industrious people can create in an area where generations of retards could only pick poop with the camels. It showed what a rational society could achieve insofar as religious freedom. And it has shown that a people, determined to no longer be subject to pogroms, can overcome overwhelming odds.

As Abba Eban said in the UN in 1967, "There are three million Jews. There are 200 million Arabs. Is the distinguished delegate from Egypt trying to say we surrounded them?"

"Masada shall not fall again." is as good a national motto as one could wish for. It goes along with the sign at Dachau, "Never again."

One of these days, Ahmadinejad's gonna let his alligator mouth overload his canary butt and wind up looking like he's been culling bobcats.

'Rat

dude, are we supposed to respond to this? aside from the risible cultural supremacism, parts of this are plain racist bs. :mad:

as if you haven't heard it before, those retards with camel poop also managed to preserve founding documents of the rationality you esteem so highly...

... and why bring the holocaust into this? why one act of gross racism should embolden another is beyond reprehensible.

[solvs]

Besides the obvious problems and positives of Israel and the surrounding states, does anybody think this is anything more than rhetoric from a failing gov. Bush does this type of crap too, and it pisses me off, but what is he going to do about it? We have no option to deal with Iran even if it was a threat thanks to our screw ups in Iraq. Not that anyone would believe us if we cried wolf against them either for the same reason.

But Iran has nothing either, and they know it. They just want to pretend to play too. And we're helping them. We're playing right into it. Our screw ups in Iraq are, once again, just helping.

And some of you are falling for the same lack of intelligence from the same people who were wrong about everything else, including... Iraq!

[MACDRIVE]

does the existence of israel in middle east have any positive effects? why not move them to Utah?

I think I'm the one that first floated that idea about a year ago, but yeah, it would sure solve a lot of problems. And the IDF could just melt into the Utah national guard or something.

[Swarmlord]

I think I'm the one that first floated that idea about a year ago, but yeah, it would sure solve a lot of problems. And the IDF could just melt into the Utah national guard or something.

I was thinking Antarctica myself. Then they'd have a reason to keep both the men and the women covered from head to toe at all times. They're used to harsh conditions, there's nothing for them to break down there and they could milk penguins for food.

Don't even suggest ruining the fine state of Utah.

[mrkramer]

... and why bring the holocaust into this? why one act of gross racism should embolden another is beyond reprehensible.

you are asking the wrong person, it was mentioned in the OP quoting the Iranian president.

[Swarmlord]

you are asking the wrong person, it was mentioned in the OP quoting the Iranian president.

Pssst. Didn't you know it's ok for muslims to mention attrocities that happened over 1,000 years ago, but it's taboo to mention something that happened only 50 years ago to defend Joos?

[clevin]

"does the existence of israel in middle east have any positive effects?"

Certainly. Israel is an example of what industrious people can create in an area where generations of retards could only pick poop with the camels. It showed what a rational society could achieve insofar as religious freedom. And it has shown that a people, determined to no longer be subject to pogroms, can overcome overwhelming odds.

As Abba Eban said in the UN in 1967, "There are three million Jews. There are 200 million Arabs. Is the distinguished delegate from Egypt trying to say we surrounded them?"

"Masada shall not fall again." is as good a national motto as one could wish for. It goes along with the sign at Dachau, "Never again."

One of these days, Ahmadinejad's gonna let his alligator mouth overload his canary butt and wind up looking like he's been culling bobcats.

'Rat

if all a jewish state can do is to revenge their suffer under Hitler, and misplace that revenge on arabic ppl, then....

BS, they deserve nothing,

industrial nation? u can directly say, nation with nuke, if anybody can be racist to this degree, plz just immigrate themselves to mars.

[Desertrat]

Funny-ironic: The UN in a majority vote agrees to allow the setup of a state, populated by people with a long, long claim to the area as their homeland.

They're immediately attacked in many ways: Armed mobs sneaking in to shoot and kill school children. Suicide bombers in the streets. Invasion by armed forces. And then, continuations of suicide bombings by the losers.

And the responses by those against whom these acts were taken somehow makes them into bad guys? Hey, take that line of reasoning back to the mosque, okay? Spare me the hypocrisy.

Irony: Israel exists as a worldwide UN vote. Now folks say Israel's bad because it exists. Bush goes into Iraq without UN approval. Folks say that's bad. Ironic how people pick and choose their notions about the UN's approval being needed or not needed; and how the views vary as to world opinion as expressed by UN votes.

yojitani sez, "those retards with camel poop also managed to preserve founding documents of the rationality you esteem so highly."

The Koran? Founding documents of rationality? Are you kidding me? I hate to tell you, but there were a hellluva lot of far more rational documents written thousands of years before that. And I'm underwhelmed by your notion of "rationality".

I'm no particular fan of religious writings, but I note the Torah had long been
in existence when my ancestors were still wearing bearskins or woad.

'Rat

[Swarmlord]

Funny-ironic: The UN in a majority vote agrees to allow the setup of a state, populated by people with a long, long claim to the area as their homeland.

<snip>

Adherence to and worship of the U.N. is reserved to issues not relating to Joos.:)

[Desertrat]

Additional comment:

yojitani asked, "... and why bring the holocaust into this? why one act of gross racism should embolden another is beyond reprehensible."

Israel came about because of the collective guilt about the western world's having stood by and done nothing to prevent the Holocaust. Could have prevented it, but didn't. Could have stopped Hitler cold in his tracks before WW II and the Final Solution, but didn't--which is why us old folks have no respect whatsoever for today's equivalents to Neville Chamberlain.

Regardless of form of payment, Danegeld has never solved the problems engendered by aggressors.

'Rat

[Peterkro]

Presumably 'rat you have no respect for the modern day equivalents of the business and political elites(in North America and Europe) who encouraged Hitler and stood aside when fascism was challenged in Spain.

In retrospect the original idea of a Israel in South America or Africa wasn't such a bad idea although the inhabitants of those places wouldn't have been too happy about Europeans (and some Asians,a handful of Africans) being dumped on them en-mass either.

[yojitani]

Additional comment:

yojitani asked, "... and why bring the holocaust into this? why one act of gross racism should embolden another is beyond reprehensible."

Israel came about because of the collective guilt about the western world's having stood by and done nothing to prevent the Holocaust. Could have prevented it, but didn't. Could have stopped Hitler cold in his tracks before WW II and the Final Solution, but didn't--which is why us old folks have no respect whatsoever for today's equivalents to Neville Chamberlain.

Regardless of form of payment, Danegeld has never solved the problems engendered by aggressors.

'Rat

No, that is factually untrue. Zionism is an old movement and the question of Israel goes back further than just Nazi's. Jew's were moving into Israel quite a bit before it. The idea of collective guilt is a nice way to paint a portrait of heroes and villians, whereas in fact European and American Anti-semitism contributed to the formation of the Israeli state as much as did the holocaust.

As to your earlier mention, why not pick up a history book and find out how ideas were preserved etc? I suppose you don't know the extent to which Islamic scholars preserved a number of classical texts...

[skunk]

Funny-ironic: The UN in a majority vote agrees to allow the setup of a state, populated by people with a long, long claim to the area as their homeland.Correction: ZERO claim. Having grabbed the land three thousand years ago, and having lost it in turn a thousand years later, confers absolutely no right whatsoever.

yojitani sez, "those retards with camel poop also managed to preserve founding documents of the rationality you esteem so highly."

The Koran? Founding documents of rationality? Are you kidding me? I hate to tell you, but there were a hellluva lot of far more rational documents written thousands of years before that.You cannot seriously be unaware that yojitani is referring to the Hellenistic literature and philosophical works rescued, annotated, translated and transmitted back to the unschooled savages of Europe by the enlightened scholars of the Muslim faith? Also, your use of the term "retard" as a pejorative and an insult is lacking in taste.

[Swarmlord]

Correction: ZERO claim. Having grabbed the land three thousand years ago, and having lost it in turn a thousand years later, confers absolutely no right whatsoever.

<snip>

Geez, I can't think of another country formed from forceable acquisitions made 3,000 years prior which we have no trouble recognising today. :rolleyes:

Maybe the area can be reestablished as the eastern province of the Roman Empire or maybe just Canaan.

Perhaps if the Israelites hadn't been forceably taken from those lands by the Egyptians and enslaved for hundreds of years in Egypt, their claim would be more valid?

Oh, and as a practicing Catholic, I'd like to see Constantinople returned as the eastern seat of the Church too.

[skunk]

Geez, I can't think of another country formed from forceable acquisitions made 3,000 years prior which we have no trouble recognising today. :rolleyes:

Maybe the area can be reestablished as the eastern province of the Roman Empire or maybe just Canaan.

Perhaps if the Israelites hadn't been forceably taken from those lands by the Egyptians and enslaved for hundreds of years in Egypt, their claim would be more valid?

Oh, and as a practicing Catholic, I'd like to see Constantinople returned as the eastern seat of the Church too.You appear to be in agreement with me that ancient historical possession has little meaningful relevance today. Good.

[Swarmlord]

You appear to be in agreement with me that ancient historical possession has little meaningful relevance today. Good.

Which is why the current country of Israel is here to stay and the sooner the Palestineans start concentrating on the sizable piece of land they currently reside on and make a liveable country out of it. Countries like Egypt, Iran, et.al. that want to piggyback their religious bent on the issue should tend to their own affairs or if they want to continue to look at it as an Arab nation or muslim issue, then deal with the rest of us looking at it as our issue.

[skunk]

Which is why the current country of Israel is here to stay and the sooner the Palestineans start concentrating on the sizable piece of land they currently reside on and make a liveable country out of it.I said "ancient historical possession", not "land seized within living memory", which is quite another thing. You cannot seriously be comparing the water-starved and overcrowded Palestinian enclaves within Gaza and the Occupied West Bank with the massively-subsidised Jewish areas, can you? Of course not: you couldn't be that disingenuous.

[Ugg]

Which is why the current country of Israel is here to stay and the sooner the Palestineans start concentrating on the sizable piece of land they currently reside on and make a liveable country out of it.

Yeah, they might be able to if Israel allowed them freedom of movement within their own country, stopped stealing land, cutting down their orchards and bulldozing their houses. Of course, that's all irrelevant to you isn't it?

[IJ Reilly]

I say, give Britain back to the Celts.

[psychofreak]

I say, give Britain back to the Celts.Where would you have made a Jewish homeland? Would you have done?

[skunk]

I say, give Britain back to the Celts.I say give it back to the dinosaurs.

[Swarmlord]

I said "ancient historical possession", not "land seized within living memory", which is quite another thing. You cannot seriously be comparing the water-starved and overcrowded Palestinian enclaves within Gaza and the Occupied West Bank with the massively-subsidised Jewish areas, can you? Of course not: you couldn't be that disingenuous.

Oh, so now the boundaries of countries should be related to how crowded they allow themselves to become or their natural resources? I don't think so. As for water, there's desalination and a host of other solutions. If their government bought less weapons and more peaceful technology, they wouldn't have the problem.

Funny how Saudi Arabia can make a city of millions of people survive quite nicely on a plain of hard packed dirt.

[Swarmlord]

Yeah, they might be able to if Israel allowed them freedom of movement within their own country, stopped stealing land, cutting down their orchards and bulldozing their houses. Of course, that's all irrelevant to you isn't it?

You mean irrelevant to the Palestinean authority. They know why movement is restricted and why some land had to be cleared to build a wall.

And there wouldn't have been an issue with the Gaza strip and other contested areas if it weren't for a little military action on the part of Arabs in '67. If they'd pull their heads out and concentrate on nation building rather than whining and committing terrorist acts, Israel would be out of there in a second.

[yojitani]

You mean irrelevant to the Palestinean authority. They know why movement is restricted and why some land had to be cleared to build a wall.

And there wouldn't have been an issue with the Gaza strip and other contested areas if it weren't for a little military action on the part of Arabs in '67. If they'd pull their heads out and concentrate on nation building rather than whining and committing terrorist acts, Israel would be out of there in a second.

Look, wouldn't it be great if the world were just this simple? I think we are all old enough in this forum to know that it is not, so let's stop pretending. I would suggest having a look at this documentary Israel and the Arabs: An Elusive Peace (http://www.amazon.com/Elusive-Peace-Israel-Arabs/dp/B000CDSS68). Perhaps you can get it out at your local library. As mainstream journalism goes, this is fairly balanced.

[yojitani]

I say give it back to the dinosaurs.

Too late!!:eek:

[IJ Reilly]

I say give it back to the dinosaurs.

Who else would want it?

Wait a minute, didn't I just read about how the Celts and the dinosaurs lived on earth at the same time? Or maybe it was that the Celts killed off the dinosaurs. I forget.

Anyway, everybody should just stay put, whoever they are, wherever they are. If you moved, go back where you came from, immediately.

Next problem.

[Cromulent]

"does the existence of israel in middle east have any positive effects?"

Certainly. Israel is an example of what industrious people can create in an area where generations of retards could only pick poop with the camels. It showed what a rational society could achieve insofar as religious freedom. And it has shown that a people, determined to no longer be subject to pogroms, can overcome overwhelming odds.

As Abba Eban said in the UN in 1967, "There are three million Jews. There are 200 million Arabs. Is the distinguished delegate from Egypt trying to say we surrounded them?"

"Masada shall not fall again." is as good a national motto as one could wish for. It goes along with the sign at Dachau, "Never again."

One of these days, Ahmadinejad's gonna let his alligator mouth overload his canary butt and wind up looking like he's been culling bobcats.

'Rat

I'm laughing. The only reason Israel is as prosperous as it is now is because of US backing. If they had just been given the land and told to get on with it I doubt Israel would even be in existence today.

You also touched on religious freedom which is ironic seeing as non Jews and even some African Jews are treated as second class citizens in Israel.

[Cromulent]

Additional comment:

yojitani asked, "... and why bring the holocaust into this? why one act of gross racism should embolden another is beyond reprehensible."

Israel came about because of the collective guilt about the western world's having stood by and done nothing to prevent the Holocaust. Could have prevented it, but didn't. Could have stopped Hitler cold in his tracks before WW II and the Final Solution, but didn't--which is why us old folks have no respect whatsoever for today's equivalents to Neville Chamberlain.

Regardless of form of payment, Danegeld has never solved the problems engendered by aggressors.

'Rat

The US did even less than Britain to stop the holocaust. Seeing as the only reason they joined the war was because of Pearl Harbour. I note that you are American, did you overlook this little fact when you were making that snide Neville Chamberlain remark?

Sorry for the double post.

Edit

Funny-ironic: The UN in a majority vote agrees to allow the setup of a state, populated by people with a long, long claim to the area as their homeland.

They're immediately attacked in many ways: Armed mobs sneaking in to shoot and kill school children. Suicide bombers in the streets. Invasion by armed forces. And then, continuations of suicide bombings by the losers.

And the responses by those against whom these acts were taken somehow makes them into bad guys? Hey, take that line of reasoning back to the mosque, okay? Spare me the hypocrisy.

Irony: Israel exists as a worldwide UN vote. Now folks say Israel's bad because it exists. Bush goes into Iraq without UN approval. Folks say that's bad. Ironic how people pick and choose their notions about the UN's approval being needed or not needed; and how the views vary as to world opinion as expressed by UN votes.

yojitani sez, "those retards with camel poop also managed to preserve founding documents of the rationality you esteem so highly."

The Koran? Founding documents of rationality? Are you kidding me? I hate to tell you, but there were a hellluva lot of far more rational documents written thousands of years before that. And I'm underwhelmed by your notion of "rationality".

I'm no particular fan of religious writings, but I note the Torah had long been
in existence when my ancestors were still wearing bearskins or woad.

Israel was founded by a bunch of terrorists. Or had you also forgotten the terrorist attacks that the Jews committed against British troops to try and force the establishment of the Jewish state? Your knowledge of history seems pretty poor. Israel up until the 1970's had ex-terrorists in government.

[IJ Reilly]

You also touched on religious freedom which is ironic seeing as non Jews and even some African Jews are treated as second class citizens in Israel.

How so? Please be specific.

The US did even less than Britain to stop the holocaust. Seeing as the only reason they joined the war was because of Pearl Harbour.

Now who's laughing? Difficult to even know where to start here.

[srf4real]

Anyway, everybody should just stay put, whoever they are, wherever they are. If you moved, go back where you came from, immediately.
Okay. I was born in Florida. Y'all can go back home now.:p

The elephant in the room, I think, is that God has given Israel to the Jews. And the U.S. doesn't want to piss God off... (our money trusts in Him, ya know.) So the U.S. backs Israel. Otherwise, they'd have gotten their butts kicked out a long time ago. But alliance with the U.S. and U.K. (sorry skunk but it's true) has kept the Jews right in the middle of a powder keg waiting to blow...

[Cromulent]

Now who's laughing? Difficult to even know where to start here.

Fairly simple. America had an isolationist policy that just about stretched to sending Britain aid. If Pearl Harbour had not happened it is hard to see America even joining the war at all. That was my point. Not what they did once they started.

It shows that America cared less than Britain did about what was going on outside its borders. Hence America doing even less than Britain to stop the holocaust.

[takao]

instead of pumping gazillions of money into arms and military perhaps they should finally consider creating an artificial island somewhere for isreal:
that way the isrealians can have their own country without taking a country away from somebody and the others are happy again for having their country back
sure expensive but if they can't agree on the cheap "living in harmony thing" and can't stop the fighting so that's the only alternative

and for those who now say "that's totally unrealistic to achieve" .. so is peace in the current situation

[Cromulent]

Israeli racism has been seen throughout its history. I mean just look at the site linked below for evidence of this (I am aware it has been revoked but the point remains that racism is not new to Israel).

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign&#37;20Relations/Israel%20and%20the%20UN/Selected%20resolutions/UNITED%20NATIONS%20GENERAL%20ASSEMBLY%20RESOLUTION%203379%20-X

[Macky-Mac]

Fairly simple. America had an isolationist policy that just about stretched to sending Britain aid. If Pearl Harbour had not happened it is hard to see America even joining the war at all. That was my point. Not what they did once they started.

It shows that America cared less than Britain did about what was going on outside its borders. Hence America doing even less than Britain to stop the holocaust.

perhaps we were lulled into complacency because your lot assured us you had negotiated "peace for our time"

[IJ Reilly]

Fairly simple. America had an isolationist policy that just about stretched to sending Britain aid. If Pearl Harbour had not happened it is hard to see America even joining the war at all. That was my point. Not what they did once they started.

It shows that America cared less than Britain did about what was going on outside its borders. Hence America doing even less than Britain to stop the holocaust.

As oversimplifications go, this one is pretty gross. The U.S. had been sending military and domestic aid to Britain for almost two years before Pearl Harbor. It's also quite laughable to single out America's pre-war isolationism when isolationism was also the decided orientation of the European nations, including Britain, during this time period. How well we remember Great Britain's gallant defense of Poland.

As for the Holocaust, nobody acted to end it. The Soviets even paused their advance into Poland to give the Nazis a opportunity to finish off the Jews of Warsaw. Nice stuff, this history.

[IJ Reilly]

instead of pumping gazillions of money into arms and military perhaps they should finally consider creating an artificial island somewhere for isreal:
that way the isrealians can have their own country without taking a country away from somebody and the others are happy again for having their country back
sure expensive but if they can't agree on the cheap "living in harmony thing" and can't stop the fighting so that's the only alternative

and for those who now say "that's totally unrealistic to achieve" .. so is peace in the current situation

Why not propose the same solution for the Palestinians?

[mrkramer]

We should just stop supporting Israel, both sides there are terrorists, when we stop supporting them let both sides fight it out, and whoever wins gets to keep the land.

[Macky-Mac]

We should just stop supporting Israel, both sides there are terrorists, when we stop supporting them let both sides fight it out, and whoever wins gets to keep the land.

but that's basically what happened after WW2 when the British ran off without setting up any government for the area.....and from the posts here, it's clear people don't want to accept the results

[mrkramer]

but that's basically what happened after WW2 when the British ran off without setting up any government for the area.....and from the posts here, it's clear people don't want to accept the results

The United states still supports Israel, we need to stop supporting them we can recognize them as a country, but we need to stop any money or other forms of support, and let Israel keep itself alive, if they deserve to keep the land.

[Macky-Mac]

The United states still supports Israel, we need to stop supporting them we can recognize them as a country, but we need to stop any money or other forms of support, and let Israel keep itself alive, if they deserve to keep the land.

and you would want nobody to provide outside support to the palestinians too? or is it only israel that would have to go it alone?

[IJ Reilly]

The United states still supports Israel, we need to stop supporting them we can recognize them as a country, but we need to stop any money or other forms of support, and let Israel keep itself alive, if they deserve to keep the land.

Should we also stop supporting Egypt? The Palestinian Authority? Will Iran then stop supporting Hezbollah?

and you would want nobody to provide outside support to the palestinians too? or is it only israel that would have to go it alone?

That seems to be the general scheme.

[mrkramer]

and you would want nobody to provide outside support to the palestinians too? or is it only israel that would have to go it alone?

I don't think that they should be supported either, both sides are just as bad there, and how things are going now, it will only continue to get worse.

[Ugg]

You mean irrelevant to the Palestinean authority. They know why movement is restricted and why some land had to be cleared to build a wall.


You've also conveniently, as usual, ignored the illegal land seizures and rampant destruction of homes and businesses. It wasn't all about the wall, a wall that by the way is illegal as it encroaches on Palestinian lands. A wall that was built on land that was illegally taken from the Israelis.

If Israel has such a difficult time respecting international conventions, they should never have "annexed" it in the first place. That was undoubtedly their biggest mistake.

Also, SA has a fortune in oil available to them to fund desalinization plants. Where's Palestine's oil? Oh, that's right, the water rights that have been illegally taken by the Israelis.

[solvs]

This thread makes the baby Jesus cry.

[Peterkro]

As oversimplifications go, this one is pretty gross. The U.S. had been sending military and domestic aid to Britain for almost two years before Pearl Harbor. It's also quite laughable to single out America's pre-war isolationism when isolationism was also the decided orientation of the European nations, including Britain, during this time period. How well we remember Great Britain's gallant defense of Poland.

As for the Holocaust, nobody acted to end it. The Soviets even paused their advance into Poland to give the Nazis a opportunity to finish off the Jews of Warsaw. Nice stuff, this history.

If your talking of Lend Lease it started 9 months before Pearl Harbour and was primarily initiated to prevent the US being dragged into the war against fascism,the aid for bases deal began a little before that.The US comes out of the war with little honour it's refusal to drop repayments from the UK because it's economy was ruined by fighting alone before the US woke up is particularly loathsome.The history of the war is much more complicated than the usual "we saved you" line espoused by generations of Americans,or for that matter the Brit line of we held off fascism alone.

[takao]

As for the Holocaust, nobody acted to end it. The Soviets even paused their advance into Poland to give the Nazis a opportunity to finish off the Jews of Warsaw. Nice stuff, this history.

offtopic: aren't you confusing the ghetto uprising '43 with the later uprising of the partisan army '44 ?


Why not propose the same solution for the Palestinians?

because they didn't come there and took away the ground from israelians with the help from military superpowers of the day

no matter where they would have done it it would have created the same conflict

another possible solution is of course taking away the country from both

[Swarmlord]

You've also conveniently, as usual, ignored the illegal land seizures and rampant destruction of homes and businesses. It wasn't all about the wall, a wall that by the way is illegal as it encroaches on Palestinian lands. A wall that was built on land that was illegally taken from the Israelis.

If Israel has such a difficult time respecting international conventions, they should never have "annexed" it in the first place. That was undoubtedly their biggest mistake.

Also, SA has a fortune in oil available to them to fund desalinization plants. Where's Palestine's oil? Oh, that's right, the water rights that have been illegally taken by the Israelis.

Use the word illegal enough times? Again, under what body of laws? A wall had to be built and the land was eminently domained for the purpose. Seems to have really cut down on the illegal travel of the terrorists into Israel.

Then I had to laugh about the oil and water bit. First off, crude oil has only been used by humans for about 100 years. This conflict is orders of magnatude older. Should boundaries of countries be decided on the amount of oil under the soil now? As for water, if the Palestineans had no water, they'd cease to be a problem in less than a week.

[FFTT]

Frankly, I'm sick of the whole mess.

Why aren't we hearing how unfair history has been to the native Americans?

Or how millions upon millions have died on the African continent thanks
to exploitation, imperialism and greed.

Collectively, these religious maniacs would rather destroy the planet
than accept the possibility that they are all WRONG!

All this CRAP about any faction being CHOSEN is sheer delusion.

[IJ Reilly]

If your talking of Lend Lease it started 9 months before Pearl Harbour and was primarily initiated to prevent the US being dragged into the war against fascism,the aid for bases deal began a little before that.The US comes out of the war with little honour it's refusal to drop repayments from the UK because it's economy was ruined by fighting alone before the US woke up is particularly loathsome.The history of the war is much more complicated than the usual "we saved you" line espoused by generations of Americans,or for that matter the Brit line of we held off fascism alone.

First off, I'm not making the "we saved you argument," I'm responding to the "the U.S. was isolationist and Britain was not" argument. I notice nobody wanted to touch the point about Britain's defense of Poland. And we haven't even spoken of Austria, Czechoslovakia or France's wall. Everybody, it turns out, was trying to convince themselves that Germany could be contained without going to war.

Lend-lease began in early 1941 but was conceived by FDR in 1940. Indeed, the political consensus for lend-lease was forged in part by satisfying the isolationists in Congress that it would keep the U.S. out. But FDR never really saw it that way. He pushed the convoy escorts and other aid powers he'd acquired under lend-lease far enough that some thought it impeachable, also knowing full well that if German submarines starting sinking American ships that war would become inevitable. That's exactly how Germany saw FDR's actions as well.

[skunk]

Use the word illegal enough times? Again, under what body of laws?International Law.
A wall had to be built and the land was eminently domained for the purpose.A wall did not "have to be built", and eminent domain is US law, not Israeli, besides which the land does not belong to Israel in the first place. It is Palestinian land.
As for water, if the Palestineans had no water, they'd cease to be a problem in less than a week.Are you proposing cutting off their water supply as a solution? Exemplary punishment? If you would subject innocent men, women and children to this kind of treatment, you are a sad excuse for a human being.

[IJ Reilly]

Israeli, besides which the land does not belong to Israel in the first place. It is Palestinian land.

I must have missed something. Of which land, specifically, are we speaking?

[skunk]

I must have missed something. Of which land, specifically, are we speaking?Don't know about you, but I was speaking of the occupied West Bank Palestinian land which the Israelis have seized to build their wall upon.
In April 2002 the Israeli government approved the plan to construct a fence/wall(5) in some parts of the West Bank and in June 2002 it approved the construction of the first phase of the project.(6) The Israeli army is proceeding with the construction of a fence/wall which runs from the north to the south of the West Bank and around Jerusalem. According to the Israeli authorities the fence/wall is "a defensive measure, designed to block the passage of terrorists, weapons and explosives into the State of Israel..."(7)

However, most of the fence/wall is not being constructed on the Green Line(8) between Israel and the West Bank. Close to 90% of the route of the fence/wall is on Palestinian land inside the West Bank, encircling Palestinian towns and villages and cutting off communities and families from each other, separating farmers from their land and Palestinians from their places of work, education and health care facilities and other essential services.(9) The total route of the fence/wall runs for more than 650 kilometres, more than double the length of the Green Line, and has an average width of 60 to 80 meters, including barbed wire, ditches, large trace paths and tank patrol lanes on each sides of the fence/wall, as well as additional buffer zones/no-go areas of varying depths.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde150162004

[Peterkro]

First off, I'm not making the "we saved you argument," I'm responding to the "the U.S. was isolationist and Britain was not" argument. I notice nobody wanted to touch the point about Britain's defense of Poland. And we haven't even spoken of Austria, Czechoslovakia or France's wall. Everybody, it turns out, was trying to convince themselves that Germany could be contained without going to war.

Lend-lease began in early 1941 but was conceived by FDR in 1940. Indeed, the political consensus for lend-lease was forged in part by satisfying the isolationists in Congress that it would keep the U.S. out. But FDR never really saw it that way. He pushed the convoy escorts and other aid powers he'd acquired under lend-lease far enough that some thought it impeachable, also knowing full well that if German submarines starting sinking American ships that war would become inevitable. That's exactly how Germany saw FDR's actions as well.

What I was trying to point out was the simplistic points being made about the war are exactly that and show nothing of actual events.If you want to address unanswered questions how about my earlier one about the countries which stood aside when fascism could have been stopped in Spain.Surely that is the example of appeasement not the later one.I'm aware of FDR's machinations to carry a vastly isolationist population into the fight and respect him for that although as you know he was not alone.The Brits were working hard to influence US actions and were successful at least to some degree (to the point they probably knew about Pearl Harbour beforehand and let it go ahead without warning the US).Nobody comes out of the 2nd War with much honour.In the fight against fascism those from all over the world who travelled to Spain to try and defend the Republic certainly do.

[Swarmlord]

International Law.
A wall did not "have to be built", and eminent domain is US law, not Israeli, besides which the land does not belong to Israel in the first place. It is Palestinian land.
Are you proposing cutting off their water supply as a solution? Exemplary punishment? If you would subject innocent men, women and children to this kind of treatment, you are a sad excuse for a human being.

Great, then the international courts would be well within their bounds to prosecute Israel for the wall then. Don't hold your breath.

I suggest you read and think before you respond. If you read what I wrote and got water starvation out of that, you better read it again. What I said was that if the Pallys had no water source, they wouldn't be alive. I haven't read where Pally were dropping by the millions because of lack of water. Last I checked, you can't live more than a few days without it.

[Swarmlord]

Don't know about you, but I was speaking of the occupied West Bank Palestinian land which the Israelis have seized to build their wall upon.


http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde150162004

The price they pay for being the reason it had to be built. They've already proven how effective diplomacy is.

[skunk]

I suggest you read and think before you respond. If you read what I wrote and got water starvation out of that, you better read it again. What I said was that if the Pallys had no water source, they wouldn't be alive.I know what I read, and the implication was clear.

[Swarmlord]

I know what I read, and the implication was clear.

That people that are alive for decades likely are drinking water?

[skunk]

That people that are alive for decades likely are drinking water?No dice, Swarm.

[Queso]

Once the USA goes bankrupt they won't have a cent to give Israel. Then the Israelis will have to *gasp* make concessions like giving the entire (1967 boundaries) West Bank and Gaza Strip back.

So 20 years tops and it's all sorted.

[IJ Reilly]

Don't know about you, but I was speaking of the occupied West Bank Palestinian land which the Israelis have seized to build their wall upon.

I see. Though the lands issues are hardly simple, I'm certainly no defender of the wall.

[IJ Reilly]

What I was trying to point out was the simplistic points being made about the war are exactly that and show nothing of actual events.If you want to address unanswered questions how about my earlier one about the countries which stood aside when fascism could have been stopped in Spain.Surely that is the example of appeasement not the later one.I'm aware of FDR's machinations to carry a vastly isolationist population into the fight and respect him for that although as you know he was not alone.The Brits were working hard to influence US actions and were successful at least to some degree (to the point they probably knew about Pearl Harbour beforehand and let it go ahead without warning the US).Nobody comes out of the 2nd War with much honour.In the fight against fascism those from all over the world who travelled to Spain to try and defend the Republic certainly do.

Likewise. These were complicated times. I'm not expecting you to defend the original argument, if only because the original arguer has apparently opted not to defend it himself. As a result, the debate is bound to get a little elliptical.

Of some possible interest perhaps, the U.S. began its rearmament in 1938 and FDR came close to losing the 1940 election because he was perceived by many as trying to push the U.S. towards involvement in foreign wars. For certain, FDR was influenced quite a lot by his personal relationship with Churchill, but FDR was by a nature an internationalist so that certainly helped.

[KingYaba]

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad launched a new verbal attack on Israel, saying a "countdown" has begun that will end with Lebanese and Palestinian militants destroying the Jewish state.

All talk no action.

[solvs]

All talk no action.

Of course it is. He can't do anything any more than we can. But it plays in Peoria, so they run with it.

[obeygiant]

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9295/1181323222472sm5.jpg

All talk no action.

Lets hope so. Ahmadinejhad may just be trying to rally the hard liners, but unfortunately some of them may take it literally. Its nice to see someone condemning this behavior.

UNITED NATIONS -- Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon was "shocked and dismayed" at a report that Iran's hard-line president said the world would soon witness the destruction of Israel, the United Nations said Thursday.

The official Islamic Republic News Agency reported Sunday that President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has repeatedly made anti-Israeli comments, referred twice to Israel's impending destruction.

"The secretary-general points out that the state of Israel is a full and long-standing member of the United Nations with the same rights and obligations as every other member," U.N. deputy spokeswoman Marie Okabe said in a statement.

"He reminds that under the United Nations Charter, all members have undertaken to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state," Okabe said.Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/07/AR2007060702506.html)

[skunk]

"He reminds that under the United Nations Charter, all members have undertaken to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state," Okabe said.What a pity George Bush didn't get that memo.

[BoyBach]

As for water, if the Palestineans had no water, they'd cease to be a problem in less than a week.


Mass killing of innocent people as a solution to the overcrowding and poverty of the Palestinian ghettos?

Next we 'solve' the Darfur problem by giving the Janjaweed more and better weapons.

This business of sorting out world peace is simple isn't it?

[skunk]

Mass killing of innocent people as a solution to the overcrowding and poverty of the Palestinian ghettos?

Next we 'solve' the Darfur problem by giving the Janjaweed more and better weapons.

This business of sorting out world peace is simple isn't it?Like I did, you appear to have missed his point, which was evidently so subtle that even he can't work out what it was.

[carbonmotion]

I read the entire thread, it seems like those of you that support kicking jews out of israel or kicking palestinians out of palestine have missed the historical context of this problem. I think its rather sad that none have suggested any kind of peaceful framework as a solution to this problem. I think many posts are filled with single minded perspectives laced with racist ideology. I'm not going to name names, you know who you are.

Not that anyone will actually do this, but a great book on the political and economic intricacies of the problem can be found on Amazon: A History of the Arab Israeli Conflict (5th Edition) (http://www.amazon.com/History-Arab-Israeli-Conflict-5th-Bickerton/dp/013222335X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-8513840-9103007?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181411288&sr=8-1). Before you can recommend what to do in the region, you have to understand the problem a little better. This book isn't half bad because it's well written and a relatively quick read.

[FFTT]

You have a bunch or crooks proclaiming to be Jewish supported by another bunch of crooks proclaiming to be Christian trying to exploit the wealth
of another bunch of crooks proclaiming to be Muslim.

What's so sad is that people can't seem to see past this part.

[BoyBach]

Not that anyone will actually do this, but a great book on the political and economic intricacies of the problem can be found on Amazon: A History of the Arab Israeli Conflict (5th Edition) (http://www.amazon.com/History-Arab-Israeli-Conflict-5th-Bickerton/dp/013222335X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-8513840-9103007?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181411288&sr=8-1). Before you can recommend what to do in the region, you have to understand the problem a little better. This book isn't half bad because it's well written and a relatively quick read.


I can recommend 'Israel: A History' by Martin Gilbert. It's a weighty 600+ pages (not including maps, bibliography etc.) and provides a detailed narrative of the short and bloody history of the nation.

[obeygiant]

You have a bunch or crooks proclaiming to be Jewish supported by another bunch of crooks proclaiming to be Christian trying to exploit the wealth
of another bunch of crooks proclaiming to be Muslim.

What's so sad is that people can't seem to see past this part.

Sure I can see that, but it doesn't change anything.

[FFTT]

Sure I can see that, but it doesn't change anything.

Of course not.

As long as people allow themselves to be manipulated by those who hide under the robes
of their favorite clergyman.

But no my friends, they keep the masses at each other's throats deliberately
so they do not turn their attention to the greedy, power hungry bastards who benefit
from all the chaos.

[Blue Velvet]

This is all about oil, and the retention of US/NATO strategic influence over the region (West Asia and the Eastern Mediterranean) and its pipelines. That's all.

Nothing to do with homelands or other religious/ethnic considerations; they're just handy tools to coerce and sway populations.

[srf4real]

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9295/1181323222472sm5.jpg:eek: Those people are scaring me. Why are they mad if they make all the big bucks from oil?
Methinks their religion says to hate me and kill me 'cuz I'm not like them.:confused:

[obeygiant]

:eek: Those people are scaring me. Why are they mad if they make all the big bucks from oil?
Methinks their religion says to hate me and kill me 'cuz I'm not like them.:confused:

Oh don't worry. They don't hate you, they just hate your government. You have nothing to worry about.

[FFTT]

:eek: Those people are scaring me. Why are they mad if they make all the big bucks from oil?
Methinks their religion says to hate me and kill me 'cuz I'm not like them.:confused:

Their clergymen are the one's manipulating them.

They have no jobs, no education, no hope while their very own
leaders are living in the lap of luxury from oil and arms deals.

They are not victims, but human nature seems to allow for mob rule.

It certainly doesn't help that DUBYA has threatened to bomb their country
if they continue development of nuclear capabilites.

[Queso]

:eek: Those people are scaring me. Why are they mad if they make all the big bucks from oil?
Methinks their religion says to hate me and kill me 'cuz I'm not like them.:confused:
Their Government tells them to hate you, just like yours tells you to hate them. Interesting how much you all have in common isn't it?

[srf4real]

Oh don't worry. They don't hate you, they just hate your government. You have nothing to worry about.Oh, I'm not worried; my God is greater than their prophet. His ways are higher than their ways. Jerusalem will be the capitol city of my government after it is rebuilt.:cool:

Their Government tells them to hate you, just like yours tells you to hate them. Interesting how much you all have in common isn't it?I don't hate anyone, and the U. S. government nor any other, for that matter, may control how I feel about anyone. However, if you want to fly airplanes into my brother's office building or bomb my homeland, I'm going to kill you first. I will take away your ability to harm me. Or die trying. That is what we have in common.

[Queso]

I don't hate anyone, and the U. S. government nor any other, for that matter, may control how I feel about anyone. However, if you want to fly airplanes into my brother's office building or bomb my homeland, I'm going to kill you first. I will take away your ability to harm me. Or die trying. That is what we have in common.
Here was I thinking that was a bunch of Saudis and one guy from the Emirates. No Iranians involved, not even in the funding.

You see how easy it is to fall for the propaganda?

[skunk]

Oh, I'm not worried; my God is greater than their prophet. His ways are higher than their ways.That's funny. Your god told his chosen people to kill every man, woman, child and beast. He may have begun his career as the mountain-god of the Midianites, but he certainly did not possess the moral high ground.
Jerusalem will be the capitol city of my government after it is rebuilt.:cool: O RLY? Must have missed that bit in Sunday school...

I don't hate anyoneYour statements above give the lie to that claim.
However, if you want to fly airplanes into my brother's office building or bomb my homeland, I'm going to kill you first.Could you cite the Chapter and Verse where your Book says that - apart from the obviously temporally-challenged nature of your proposition?

[FFTT]

IF... you consider the 10 Commandments as the true word of God,
then it should be no question that anything written contrary to
those very basic rules are the divisive, self serving words of men.

These collective "holy" scriptures that are used to manipulate the masses
are all deeply flawed by mankind's own doing.

There is NO CHOSEN DENOMINATION under one God.

You are about as important in the grand scale of things as
the festering boils on the buttocks of a flea.

Any thoughts to the contrary are simply self delusional fantasy.

[srf4real]

Don't have to hate somebody to kill 'em. Just self defense, that's all. [book of Rob, 4:20]:p
Whatever propaganda is, what really scares me is how many people believe what they read on the internet regardless of factual historical accounts to the contrary. Ideally, we could all just get along and work together for peace, but then a certain group will always still want all the power and money and glory, even at the expense of other's innocent lives. I'm not realy pointing fingers at one world power or another - I am well aware that power corrupts and the U.S. government is most guilty, because it is currently most powerful. It's a vicious cycle that has been since Cain killed Abel out of jealousy and will not end until the holy city is rebuilt and inhabited by God. (After being destroyed once more);)

[skunk]

It's a vicious cycle that has been since Cain killed Abel and will not end until the holy city is rebuilt and inhabited by God. (After being destroyed once more);)Repeating such milleniarist fantasies is a very good way to ensure that such vicious cycles persist.

[srf4real]

Here was I thinking that was a bunch of Saudis and one guy from the Emirates. No Iranians involved, not even in the funding.

You see how easy it is to fall for the propaganda?

Don't you understand I speak in generalities? My comments apply to the situation as it affects the U.S. against the Al Quillya, Israel against the Iranian president, Iran against the U.S. goverment, etc... etc... all feel the same and rightly so. Threats are percieved and responded to with violence. Nobody has faith of any substance or they would just let the One true God sort things out for Himself rather than being so vain as to decide for themselves who should live and who shoud die. I admit that my stated philosphy is just as guilty. It's ****ed up. I truly hope that if it ever really did come down to my life or the life of any enemy, God would provide an escape so that none have to die. That time has not come yet for me personally, so I speak in ignorance and inexperience. :)

Remember, when you point a finger at someone else, three of your fingers are still pointing back at you.;)

[Queso]

This is our world. It's up to us to sort it out. There will be no magical father figure descending from the clouds to sort it for us. We'll all be long dead waiting for that to happen.

[.Andy]

Don't you understand I speak in generalities?
No you weren't. You were purposefully setting up a fantasy so as to justify your religious bloodlust by demonising Iranians as plane-flying suicide bombers. Your posts are all there in black and white. Your motives couldn't be more transparent.

[srf4real]

This is our world. It's up to us to sort it out. There will be no magical father figure descending from the clouds to sort it for us. We'll all be long dead waiting for that to happen.

I get involved in trying to make the world a better place, but most of the impact is only felt in the small community where I live. Certainly don't rely on God's help as a cop-out, but unfortunately I am convinced that human nature is simply too self centered and egotistical to sort this out on it's own. It will take God's own righteous arm to put things correctly in place. I believe and hope for that day to come, when we all live together in peaches and harmony.:p

I don't know if you have this book, so I have gone to the trouble of typing out a few key phrases you should know. I believe this will happen, along with millions of others who believe. It will solve the 'problem' of Israel. Agree or not, you should know.:)

The Seventh Trumpet[I]
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven which said:
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

[I]The New Jerusalem
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then He said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

[IJ Reilly]

Not sure if it's still germane to what this thread is about now, but...

Iran tightens screws on internal dissent

First, the fashion police stopped 150,000. Then the press was warned. Now banks, students and unions are targeted.

CAIRO — The government of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is in the midst of one of the most intensive crackdowns on domestic dissent in the last two decades, targeting groups as diverse as banks and labor unions, students and civic organizations.

In the United States, attention has focused on the detention of four Iranian American dual nationals, three of whom have been charged by the government in Tehran with endangering Iran's national security. But according to human rights activists and ordinary Iranians who described the events, the effect of the crackdown has been far more widespread at home.

The first extensive detentions came in April aimed at people wearing clothes deemed not to comply with Islamic strictures. Security forces swarmed streets in Tehran and grabbed people wearing skimpy head scarves, short overcoats or tight shirts. By the end of the month, about 150,000 had been stopped or detained, the chief of the national police said. Most were held only briefly.

Since then, the campaign has widened. Student and union leaders have been arrested, and scholars have been harassed for refusing to sign statements denouncing Israel, human rights groups say. Private banks have come under attack for their interest rates.

...

Iranian news outlets have been issued a three-page letter from the Supreme National Security Council listing forbidden topics. Barred subjects include the enforcement of Islamic restrictions on dress, the effect of United Nations sanctions on everyday life, international sanctions on Iranian banks and travel bans on Iranian nuclear and military officials. Also on the do-not-publish list are stories about tensions between Iran's Shiites and Sunnis, ethnic clashes in the provinces, and strained relations between Iran and other Muslim countries worried about Tehran's regional ambitions.

Western news organizations have also felt intimidated. The bureau chief of one in Tehran likened present-day Iran to the former Soviet Union, where foreign journalists writing about human rights abuses would have their visas revoked and local staffers were regularly summoned to interviews with intelligence officials.

"There are many things that I would like to write about, but can't," the journalist said, speaking on condition of anonymity. "They would shut down our office and kick us out."

...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iran10jun10,0,3578330.story

[Swarmlord]

Their Government tells them to hate you, just like yours tells you to hate them. Interesting how much you all have in common isn't it?

You think that we depise radical Islam because our government tells us to? Lol!

[skunk]

I get involved in trying to make the world a better place, but most of the impact is only felt in the small community where I live.Might I suggest you stay involved on a local level? Trying to apply your Last Trumpetry to the world at large would be nothing short of disastrous. It will take God's own righteous arm to put things correctly in place. I believe and hope for that day to come, when we all live together in peaches and harmony.:p Your "peaches and harmony" come at the price of everyone who does not believe as you do being either killed or marginalised. It's not difficult to achieve harmony if you wipe out everyone who sings out of key. Surely the problem we face in this reality is finding a way in which different views can coexist without resorting to wholesale slaughter?

[FFTT]

And the meek shall inherit the earth.

[SMM]

Don't you understand I speak in generalities? My comments apply to the situation as it affects the U.S. against the Al Quillya, Israel against the Iranian president, Iran against the U.S. goverment, etc... etc... all feel the same and rightly so. Threats are percieved and responded to with violence. Nobody has faith of any substance or they would just let the One true God sort things out for Himself rather than being so vain as to decide for themselves who should live and who shoud die. I admit that my stated philosphy is just as guilty. It's ****ed up. I truly hope that if it ever really did come down to my life or the life of any enemy, God would provide an escape so that none have to die. That time has not come yet for me personally, so I speak in ignorance and inexperience. :)

Remember, when you point a finger at someone else, three of your fingers are still pointing back at you.;)

Poor God. He really gets blamed for a lot of stupidities.

[obeygiant]

Poor God. He really gets blamed for a lot of stupidities.

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/9263/1181502280529xj6.jpg

[solvs]

However, if you want to fly airplanes into my brother's office building or bomb my homeland, I'm going to kill you first.
So we should bomb them because you're afraid they're going to bomb us? You don't think that's why they want to attack us in the first place? And that they won't attack us again if we attack them? This is a vicious cycle that will only lead to a lot of innocent people dying and being hurt, on both sides. All thanks to a bunch of rhetoric spewing power mongers who couldn't follow through with their threats if they wanted to. But you keep right on falling for it. I don't know, I don't know if I trust them same people who screwed up Iraq so badly to do it all over again, and using the same justification no less. 9/11!!!

Oh, and all Muslims aren't the same. Iran (who are Persians mostly BTW) did not attack us. Nor did Iraq. The people who did plan the attack against us are still out there because we're too busy dealing with Iraq and making idle threats against Iran, while they do the same.

I wonder if this is what they see when they look at us:

http://www.thegayblackjew.com/images/cerealbeating2.jpg

[AP_piano295]

Don't have to hate somebody to kill 'em. Just self defense, that's all. [book of Rob, 4:20]:p
Whatever propaganda is, what really scares me is how many people believe what they read on the internet regardless of factual historical accounts to the contrary. Ideally, we could all just get along and work together for peace, but then a certain group will always still want all the power and money and glory, even at the expense of other's innocent lives. I'm not realy pointing fingers at one world power or another - I am well aware that power corrupts and the U.S. government is most guilty, because it is currently most powerful. It's a vicious cycle that has been since Cain killed Abel out of jealousy and will not end until the holy city is rebuilt and inhabited by God. (After being destroyed once more);)

My favorite part of the bible was when Jesus transforms into Ninja Jesus and kills all of the Romans who are threatening him...oh wait.

[Queso]

You think that we depise radical Islam because our government tells us to? Lol!
You just did it again. Equating Iranians with radical Islamists.

That's one severe case of Foxitis you've got there :p

[.Andy]

I wonder if this is what they see when they look at us
That westerners suck at photoshop?

[Swarmlord]

You just did it again. Equating Iranians with radical Islamists.

That's one severe case of Foxitis you've got there :p

No radicals there in Iran, no sir.

[obeygiant]

You just did it again. Equating Iranians with radical Islamists.

That's one severe case of Foxitis you've got there :p

I don't think you need to watch FNC to know that there are Islamists in control of Iran. If something is presented that differs from one's preconceived notions then the presented must be Fox watching retard. However dynamicv did post the ":p" smilie, so he must be just taking a poke for fun. :)

But leave it to Swarm and I to be the only ones to refute that ridiculous statement. rolleyes.

Either everyone else here believes there are no Islamists in Iran or they won't differ with one of their esteemed colleagues. The other excuse is, let see... oh! "There are extremists in control of this country so why should we care about Iran when things are so horrible in our own country?" But, alas, I'm attacking people and not ideas so I guess that makes me less of a person. :( Apologies to all.

[Swarmlord]

I don't think you need to watch FNC to know that there are Islamists in control of Iran.

Nah, just a bunch of Persian Good Ol' Boys. The mobs of tens of thousands of blood thirsty fanatics are just actors staged to scare us.:)

[Queso]

No radicals there in Iran, no sir.

I don't think you need to watch FNC to know that there are Islamists in control of Iran.
The average man and woman on the street in Iran wears American clothing, listens to American music, reads American literature. If your President wasn't giving the Mullahs an enemy to rally the people against, they may even by now have chipped away the theocracy's power and taken back their country. However, that's not now going to happen for at least another decade.

The revolution was against Western imperialism in Iran. As long as we keep making out we want to go back to how it was, the Iranians will continue with what they have. Better the Devil you know than the Great Satan.

[IJ Reilly]

The average man and woman on the street in Iran wears American clothing, listens to American music, reads American literature. If your President wasn't giving the Mullahs an enemy to rally the people against, they may even by now have chipped away the theocracy's power and taken back their country. However, that's not now going to happen for at least another decade.

The revolution was against Western imperialism in Iran. As long as we keep making out we want to go back to how it was, the Iranians will continue with what they have. Better the Devil you know than the Great Satan.

Not entirely, no. If it was just about that, they would not have created a theocracy. As for what people read and how they dress in Iran, perhaps you should take a closer look at the article I posted.

[skunk]

As for what people read and how they dress in Iran, perhaps you should take a closer look at the article I posted.If they weren't reading and wearing "incorrect" stuff, there wouldn't be so many arrests. This is not necessarily a contradiction.

[obeygiant]

The average man and woman on the street in Iran wears American clothing, listens to American music, reads American literature.

This (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=394_1178441340) little video from liveleak is good indicator of what mothers day is like in Iran.


If your President wasn't giving the Mullahs an enemy to rally the people against, they may even by now have chipped away the theocracy's power and taken back their country. However, that's not now going to happen for at least another decade.

Okay, its the United States fault, fine. So now do you have "foxitis" for agreeing that there are radicals in charge of the Iranian gov't?

[Queso]

If they weren't reading and wearing "incorrect" stuff, there wouldn't be so many arrests. This is not necessarily a contradiction.
Exactly. I also get this information first hand from an Iranian-born friend recently returned from a family wedding in the country.

The theocracy was the rallying point against the dictatorship. A large number of Iranians aren't even Muslim yet supported the clerics against the Shah. Under his regime, anything was perceived as an improvement.

Okay, its the United States fault, fine. So now do you have "foxitis" for agreeing that there are radicals in charge of the Iranian gov't?
No it isn't the United States' fault, but you're not exactly helping the situation either. Neither is our own Government.

And the Foxitis comment was made in response to Swarmlord implying that all Iranians were American-hating radicals. Read back. He does not specifically mention the Iranian Government.

[IJ Reilly]

If they weren't reading and wearing "incorrect" stuff, there wouldn't be so many arrests. This is not necessarily a contradiction.

What, now police-enforced national dress codes work for you?

[skunk]

What, now police-enforced national dress codes work for you?Of course they don't. I'm just pointing out that, whatever the theocrats may be attempting to dictate, the fact that hundreds of thousands of arrests are taking place indicates that hundreds of thousands of Iranians are not paying a great deal of attention. This is the best way to deal with theocrats. A little civil disobedience can do a world of good.

[IJ Reilly]

Of course they don't. I'm just pointing out that, whatever the theocrats may be attempting to dictate, the fact that hundreds of thousands of arrests are taking place indicates that hundreds of thousands of Iranians are not paying a great deal of attention. This is the best way to deal with theocrats. A little civil disobedience can do a world of good.

I guess I'm still not following your point. As explained in the article, Iran is in the midst of a major crackdown on freedom of thought and expression. The government is becoming steadily more repressive, not less. Just because everyone who doesn't cut their hair according to government edict hasn't been arrested yet, does not mean they aren't continuing to amp up their repression of dissent.

[skunk]

I guess I'm still not following your point.Look, I'm not denying that they're cracking down on dissent, I'm saying there's a lot of dissent for them to crack down on.

[IJ Reilly]

Look, I'm not denying that they're cracking down on dissent, I'm saying there's a lot of dissent for them to crack down on.

It was just ordinary behavior until they started cracking down. The mullahs have all of the real power in Iran. If they want people to be arrested for the way they cut their hair, then it's going to happen, and continue to happen until subversive haircuts are no longer offending the faithful. Repression by the book.

[Desertrat]

What's sorta weird or sad about all this is that Iran has a legitimate need for generation of electricity from nukes, wind, solar, etc. Their oil-infrastructure is in bad shape, and their oilfields are in decline. Heck, they even have to import gasoline!

But Ahmeniwhatzit has his notions about continuing to export his Shiite Revolution stuff, plus all the Sharia bit. That export is (to me, anyhow) not coupled to any aspect of US foreign policy. We could totally come home and he'd still be in the export business.

'Rat