I took a trip in Microsoft Hell today...

[joelovesapple]

....And I'm very shaken up so please be calm with me...:eek:


I started doing a web design course and they were using FrontPage:eek: . It was foul. Now I have no idea how to design a webpage but it was really hard to use and I've heard bad things about it. Also I hate how it did it in 800 x 600 and could only be previewed in IE6.:eek: .

Anyone got comments?


I almost had a heart-attack.:(

[epochblue]

Drop the class. Seriously. Any web design class that is going to pawn off FrontPage as The Way to design web sites isn't a web design class at all; it's an abomination.

[dswoodley]

tell your class instructor "Welcome to the 21st Century!!!!" :eek:

I can't remember the last time Front Page was considered a first choice tool for web work.

[elppa]

Get a refund.

It's not used by any professional designer/developer worth their salt.

[4God]

Ruuuuuuuunn.........AS FAST AS YOU CAN!

[snickelfritz]

Seriously, why would you need to take a web design course that teaches a simple outdated WYSIWYG like Frontpage? (you could teach yourself this program in a weekend)
I would expect to be taught advanced html, javascript, actionscript, ajax, etc...
As well as basic design concepts, and the use of Photoshop to create graphics.

Personally, I would drop the course and ask for a full refund.
I would also admonish the school administrator for wasting my time.

GL

[Roric]

FrontPage was last part of the MS Office 2003 family of offerings. It has been dropped and the functionality it provided has been rolled into Publisher 2007.

They are teaching a software that is outdated, discontinued, and entirely wrong for all but the simplest of sites.

[geese]

Anyone got comments?



Yes. Tell them to shove their FP of their arse.

I had to edit intranet pages for 2 long years with FP. I hate it had slayed my wife.

WYSIWYG isn't really used effectivly for web design anymore. You're better off going to the w3c schools (http://www.w3schools.com/html/)site and learning HTML and CSS there. Its free an all.

[elppa]

outdated, discontinued, and entirely wrong for all but the simplest of sites.

But it aint much good for those either.

[Bern]

If you're being taught Frontpage as a web design course then you're being screwed. Obviously this teacher knows nothing about web design. You must get a refund!

[iToaster]

Ah FrontPage... I hate it. I made the most hideous website in there once. It took for ever and I came many a day after school to make sure that abomination created my "website" accurately... Oh, if only schools would use Macs... get out of that class a fast as you can.

[Mac-Addict]

Ugh I remember frontpage, its what I caught myself HTML with... and I suck at HTML, So I took a child's web devolpment class (I am 13 :p) And even then it was Dreamweaver!

[ehurtley]

"Microsoft Hell"? Is that a new product? :-D

Or did you mean the "hell" that Microsofties go to when they die? That would be a place run by Linux computers, where every desktop is a Mac with NeoOffice installed.

[ezekielrage_99]

LOL.... Frontpage, welcome to web site design of 1998 :D

[joelovesapple]

Thanks for the comments, guys! They really made me laugh:D .

Its a free course but I could do spreadsheets too.... on wonderful Microturd Spreadshit 2000 TM if I wanted.


I don't think I shall be making a return there any time soon, 'but there aren't Macs everywhere' is the Mothers' arguement.:(

[tominated]

"Microsoft Hell"? Is that a new product? :-D

No, that's one that comes with every microsoft product... hidden...

[thejadedmonkey]

A few years ago I took a web design class in high school. My teacher spend about 10 minutes explaining front page to the class, just because it's a "tool of the trade" and then told us never to use it unless we had to. She made us learn the HTML though, and CSS, so it was a good class IMHO.

[tomoisyourgod]

I learnt basics of HTML in the good 'al fashion way.

A simple text editor. :)

[SC68Cal]

I learnt basics of HTML in the good 'al fashion way.

A simple text editor. :)

And that's how your supposed to start out!

Ugh. My friend had a professor that FORCED everyone to use frontpage. She refused to do so, hand coded her project and just spoofed the creator tag.

[tominated]

And that's how your supposed to start out!

Ugh. My friend had a professor that FORCED everyone to use frontpage. She refused to do so, hand coded her project and just spoofed the creator tag.

damn! thats smart.

[Jopling]

I dont think it is necessarily bad to teach on. Everyone has used the microsoft apps and they share similiar interfaces. I'm sure the teacher is using the program so students can can familiarize themselves with the different terminologies and functions of webdesign so when the do move up to a more practical program, they wont have as much difficulty.

[elppa]

I dont think it is necessarily bad to teach on. Everyone has used the microsoft apps and they share similiar interfaces. I'm sure the teacher is using the program so students can can familiarize themselves with the different terminologies and functions of webdesign so when the do move up to a more practical program, they wont have as much difficulty.

No, it will teach them bad habits and generate horrible code which is no use to anyone. Couldn't disagree more.

[Sdashiki]

Quick glance thru the TV today:

Judging Amy....and the main character's (ready for the shocker, her name is Amy) daughter, who is about 10, says:

"We're learning to make a web page in class..."

and this works for this thread...

cuz it shows that people dont learn the actual substance, just a tool.

This class should be called "How to use Front-Page", because its what it really is. Trying to bill it as Web Design is a complete and utter bastardization of the word(s).

I dont know, maybe its snooty, but if someone says they did their site in a WYSIWYG program, I instantly lose alot of respect for the site. Granted, hand coding has its place, and WYSIWYG has its own, but not knowing what your app even does, is kind of silly.

[astrostu]

Yeah, FrontPage inserts what I've trademarked as "CrapCode" all over the pages it creates. It's a disgusting program that should be hunted and shot at with extreme prejudice.

[Metatron]

Now bear with me on this...but it is not total hell. It is an easy program to learn and that is how I learned HTML. Though that program puts way to much HTML code in a page...it is an okay program for someone new to HTML or web design, though I would recommend somthing a little more updated as FrontPage is dead...

SharePoint Designer and Web Expressions are a MUCH better product than FrontPage...

[tominated]

SharePoint Designer and Web Expressions are a MUCH better product than FrontPage...

still... they both come with microsoft helll as a key, but hidden, feature

[kitki83]

I have a question I am learning XHTML and CSS, where do I go next?

Java, Ajax, more XHTML and CSS or Dreamweaver(waiting on CS3)

Thanks

[snickelfritz]

WYSIWYG editors such as GoLive and Dreamweaver are just as valid for building websites as Quark and Indesign are for building printed documents.
(I don't recall the last time I heard of someone writing the postscript code for a page layout manually)

[dswoodley]

Quick glance thru the TV today:

Judging Amy....and the main character's (ready for the shocker, her name is Amy) daughter, who is about 10, says:

"We're learning to make a web page in class..."

and this works for this thread...

cuz it shows that people dont learn the actual substance, just a tool.

This class should be called "How to use Front-Page", because its what it really is. Trying to bill it as Web Design is a complete and utter bastardization of the word(s).

I dont know, maybe its snooty, but if someone says they did their site in a WYSIWYG program, I instantly lose alot of respect for the site. Granted, hand coding has its place, and WYSIWYG has its own, but not knowing what your app even does, is kind of silly.

i have to disagree with this. The vast majority of people who take intro level classes using wysiwyg editors produce just fine without knowing exactly what the program does. The reason these programs exist and there is a market for them is because people don't want to know what they do, they just want the results. Why is that silly? Is it any more silly than learning how to enter data in a database without knowing SQL?

[virus1]

If you want to learn actual web design, hook yourself up with coda and bookmark tizag.com.

[joelovesapple]

Well guys... I took matters into my own hands and told the teacher to shove it where the sun don't shine.

I decided to make my own page... http://web.mac.com/jobi1_kenobi/iWeb/www.joeayresblog.com/Welcome.html

Yah, it's an iWeb page:o but far better than anything that can be made in FrontPage, that's for sure. All I needed was a basic blog and that's what I got:) .

What do you all think?

[SC68Cal]

Well guys... I took matters into my own hands and told the teacher to shove it where the sun don't shine.

I decided to make my own page... http://web.mac.com/jobi1_kenobi/iWeb/www.joeayresblog.com/Welcome.html

Yah, it's an iWeb page:o but far better than anything that can be made in FrontPage, that's for sure. All I needed was a basic blog and that's what I got:) .

What do you all think?

Hmmm, can't access it. Asks for your dot mac password. Sure you have it in the right folder? Is the URL correct?

EDIT: Clicked it again and it worked this time. Weird.

[FoxyKaye]

Well guys... I took matters into my own hands and told the teacher to shove it where the sun don't shine.

I decided to make my own page... http://web.mac.com/jobi1_kenobi/iWeb/www.joeayresblog.com/Welcome.html

Yah, it's an iWeb page:o but far better than anything that can be made in FrontPage, that's for sure. All I needed was a basic blog and that's what I got:) .

What do you all think?
I learned HTML with a text editor back in 1998, but after a while didn't bother keeping up with how to code with all the changes being introduced to it and all the Web 2.0 stuff. Your first Web site is a heck of a lot more stylish than mine was 9 years ago - granted, the Web has changed a lot since then, but the nice thing about iWeb is that it has a few templates that you can start from and change more as you develop a greater understanding of Web coding. Very nice - congrats!

iWeb is just the beginning - it's a program meant to help you get your feet wet (or in my case, bring my Web site into the 21st Century) and if you like doing Web coding, you can really take off from there. There's a couple main schools out there regarding learning how to code: learn from scratch with a text-editor, or learn from seeing and doing with a WYSIWYG program like iWeb and the more advanced ones like DreamWeaver. It's your preference that really matters, and your goals for understanding what you want to do.

IMHO, iWeb is a lot like a few other Apple programs I use regularly: DVD Studio Pro, iDVD, and iMovie. It's templates are there to get you going, but the more you spend wandering around the Web (or using video tools), you learn to recognize them - you'll pop in a DVD someone authored and see a DVD Studio Pro menu template and think, "oh, they made this DVD with that program." So, depending on how much you get interested, you can then take the next step and make your own site from scratch, which alters the first impression people "in the know" have from "oh yeah, that's an iWeb page template" to "oh wow, that's a nice crisp design." FYI, my Web sites will always be "oh yeah, that's an iWeb page template" because I haven't had the inclination to learn more HTML and other Web coding in greater depth.

At any rate, have fun - what I like about Apple's iLife stuff is that it makes learning to do things fun as well because you're not worrying about mangled HTML code and computer crashes (or stack overflows, or memory errors, or other blue screen of death problems).

[dswoodley]

It's fine for a first-outing! iWeb productes it's own serious bloat, and that shows in the load-time, but sylistically it's just fine.

[SC68Cal]

I just wrote a thousand lines of code in Dreamweaver while doing validation and browser check compatibility as I went along in the app today. I'm warming up to Dreamweaver a little bit.

I just can't imagine doing it in Front Page. At all.

I'll readily admit that my own website is made using iWeb. I'm just not that talented at graphic design and the whole artsy-fartsy stuff. I code in PHP and MySQL with just enough CSS and HTML to make text look nice, since I'm responsible for moving our College towards a "paperless" office where all of the paperwork is a dynamic web page with a SQL back end.

I can't create a PHP and MySQL application and call that my homepage.

[SC68Cal]

I have a question I am learning XHTML and CSS, where do I go next?




PHP most likely. Then some sort of dialect of SQL so you can bind all that fancy front-end to a fancy back end, which makes web 2.0 actually dynamic.

[tominated]

it's AJAX that makes it dynamic... at least for web 2.0. The magic combination of the XHTTPRequest or what ever the hell it is and javascript. You should probably learn javascript also.

[cjc343]

Its a free course but I could do spreadsheets too.... on wonderful Microturd Spreadshit 2000 TM if I wanted.

Knowing how to use Microturd Spreadshit is actually very useful, however, at this rate, it's highly unlikely that the class would actually get into the interesting part of things. I use Excel fairly frequently for a variety of things, however, I also have an "above-average" knowledge of how to use Excel.

If you bother to learn to actually use Excel (and I mean to the point where you know VBA well enough to automate everything that can be automated effectively, and not with Macros) you'll find that it's extremely powerful and very useful.

[operator]

No, it will teach them bad habits and generate horrible code which is no use to anyone. Couldn't disagree more.

I couldn't agree more.