PDA

View Full Version : Motorola G4 or IBM 750vx "Mojave" in iBook?


macphoria
Jul 1, 2003, 04:32 PM
What would you rather like to see happen? Motorola's G4 or IBM's AltiVec/SIMD enabled G3 (which is virtually a G4) in the next iBook? Which would be better?

ftaok
Jul 1, 2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by macphoria
What would you rather like to see happen? Motorola's G4 or IBM's AltiVec/SIMD enabled G3 (which is virtually a G4) in the next iBook? Which would be better? The Gobi isn't even out yet and you're asking about the Mojave.

Personally, I think Apple will use the 7447 in the iBook next (if the iBook isn't discontinued altogether).

Incidentally, is the Mojave the chip that's supposed to have Altivec on it?

Daveman Deluxe
Jul 1, 2003, 04:48 PM
I would rather have the SIMD/AltiVec G3 in the iBook. It uses less power and produces less heat than the G4 and it runs faster. Hell, the current G3 design runs faster than a G4 of the same clock speed unless vectors or complex FPU instructions are involved.

macphoria
Jul 1, 2003, 05:24 PM
Incidentally, is the Mojave the chip that's supposed to have Altivec on it?
This was somewhere on MacRumors articles.

- The PowerPC 750GX ("Gobi") is currently "sampling" and will be available in the Fall with speeds up to 1.4GHz.
- The 750VX ("Mojave") is an Altivec enhanced G3 to debut at 1.5GHz and will be sampling at the end of the year.

ftaok
Jul 2, 2003, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
I would rather have the SIMD/AltiVec G3 in the iBook. It uses less power and produces less heat than the G4 and it runs faster. Hell, the current G3 design runs faster than a G4 of the same clock speed unless vectors or complex FPU instructions are involved. Seeing as how the Mojave won't be available until sometime next year (source: macphoria's post above), it seems like the iBook will either get a G4 or stagnate at 900mhz for another 6 months to a year. So my vote would be the 7447 G4.

As for the G3 being faster than the G4 with the exception of Altivec stuff, that may be true. But the problem is that there are so many things in OS X that are enhanced for Altivec that the G4 really is faster than the G3 most of the time. The only regular task that the G3 would beat the G4 would be Microsoft Office (which runs dog slow on whatever Mac hardware you have). Stuff like iTunes and iMovie run much better with a G4.

yzedf
Jul 2, 2003, 09:47 AM
G3 - 750HX (up to 1100MHz and 200MHz bus)

ftaok
Jul 2, 2003, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by yzedf
G3 - 750HX (up to 1100MHz and 200MHz bus) Which one is this?

Mr. MacPhisto
Jul 2, 2003, 10:42 AM
I think that the iBook will likely get a 7457 running at 1 GHz. My bet is the PowerBooks will have a 7457 running at 1.3 with L3 cache. I also think the PBs will get DDR400 while the iBooks will get DDR333.

I don't think Apple will use the 750GX - at least I feel they'd be ill-advised to at this point. It's best to introduce Altivec now on the low-end. The VX, I think, will be the replacement for the Moto chips. It should scale nicely and will have twice the L2 cache of the 7457. It also adds SMP ability to the 750 series, making it likely that it will become the low-end chip until the G5 does in late 2004/early 2005 with the release of the G6 (PPC980 - Power5 derivative).

Catfish_Man
Jul 2, 2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
I would rather have the SIMD/AltiVec G3 in the iBook. It uses less power and produces less heat than the G4 and it runs faster. Hell, the current G3 design runs faster than a G4 of the same clock speed unless vectors or complex FPU instructions are involved.

Of course, part of the reason the G3 is so power and space efficient could be that it's lacking 4 pipelines, a register file, a L3 cache interface, and a load/store unit that the G4 has... (the Altivec and L3 cache parts of the G4) All of those add to die size and power consumption, and all but one would be required for the 750vx.

A low 1.x GHz chip with Altivec @ .13 micron SOI and 4 pipeline stages seems about right (although before I compared it to other chips it seemed much too high). Moto's gotten 1.43GHz @ .18 micron SOI and 7 stages. Intel hit 1.4 GHz with 10 stages @ .13 micron non-SOI. AMD used 14 stages @ .18 micron non-SOI (iirc), and got up to something like 1.8GHz (I can't remember when TBred was introduced).

If they update it to use the MPXbus (can't remember if Moto owns the tech for this) or an on chip memory controller that could be a VERY nice chip for an iBook (even with the 750gx's 60x bus it would be fairly nice, but I'm kinda hoping we've seen the end of that bus. It sucks pretty badly).

yzedf
Jul 2, 2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by ftaok
Which one is this?
My bad. 750GX.

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/newsletter/jun2003/newproductfocus.html

ftaok
Jul 2, 2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by yzedf
My bad. 750GX.

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/newsletter/jun2003/newproductfocus.html Yeah, I was replying to the guy's original question of whether they should go with a G4 or Mojave in the iBook. The Gobi wasn't part of the question.

Anyways, the Gobi's not ready yet and I don't think Apple would use it. They'll likely go with the 7447 for the next rev or 2. Then they'll make a decision whether to go with the Mojave or a low powered 970.

MacBoyX
Jul 2, 2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by ftaok
... (if the iBook isn't discontinued altogether).

What on earth would make you think this? iBooks sell like hotcakes. I mean how many School Districts in the US have bought one for EVERY Student in a certain grade or even grades.

The iBook is NOT going to be discontinued. Not to mention the number of NON educational users who buy them.

I for one would like to see Apple drop the G4 all together and keep with IBM and the G3 which keeps getting better and faster first GOBI them MOJAVE.

MacBoyX

ftaok
Jul 2, 2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by MacBoyX
What on earth would make you think this? iBooks sell like hotcakes. I mean how many School Districts in the US have bought one for EVERY Student in a certain grade or even grades.

The iBook is NOT going to be discontinued. Not to mention the number of NON educational users who buy them.

I for one would like to see Apple drop the G4 all together and keep with IBM and the G3 which keeps getting better and faster first GOBI them MOJAVE.

MacBoyX What I meant by that statement is that Apple could discontinue the iBook and replace it with a low-end PowerBook. Basically, the 12" Powerbook is more like a G4 iBook than a scaled-down version of the 15" TiBook or 17" AlBook.

About your point of dropping the G4 in favor of IBM's G3. That's not gonna happen unless IBM gets Altivec into the G3. Apple want's chips that have Altivec. IBM only licensed Altivec from Moto because their customer (Apple) requested them to do so. If the Mojave does come out with Altivec, I suspect that Apple will use it. But a Mojave with Altivec is no longer a G3. It becomes a G4 in essence.

I don't think Apple will use the Gobi since the 7457/47 will beat it to market. Plus, the 7457 will be available at higher clock rates and will run pretty cool. After the 7457 runs out of steam, Apple will either use A) the next Moto G4 (or better) chip, B) the IBM Mojave (provided Altivec is included), or C) a low-powered 970. The Gobi will probably never find it's way into a Mac.

Mr. MacPhisto
Jul 2, 2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by ftaok
What I meant by that statement is that Apple could discontinue the iBook and replace it with a low-end PowerBook. Basically, the 12" Powerbook is more like a G4 iBook than a scaled-down version of the 15" TiBook or 17" AlBook.

About your point of dropping the G4 in favor of IBM's G3. That's not gonna happen unless IBM gets Altivec into the G3. Apple want's chips that have Altivec. IBM only licensed Altivec from Moto because their customer (Apple) requested them to do so. If the Mojave does come out with Altivec, I suspect that Apple will use it. But a Mojave with Altivec is no longer a G3. It becomes a G4 in essence.

I don't think Apple will use the Gobi since the 7457/47 will beat it to market. Plus, the 7457 will be available at higher clock rates and will run pretty cool. After the 7457 runs out of steam, Apple will either use A) the next Moto G4 (or better) chip, B) the IBM Mojave (provided Altivec is included), or C) a low-powered 970. The Gobi will probably never find it's way into a Mac.


Thing is that Moto may be starting to get on the ball, knowing that Apple could take their total business elsewhere. It sounds like they could be at .09 near when the 970 is - and that could make the Moto G4 a very, very nice low end chip. They may need to add 512K of L2 cache to bring it up to spec with the IBM 750, but it already has SMP - and other things. The 750VX will be very similar in structure to the smaller Moto iteration - so Apple could use both manufacturers. The plan might be that they'd need them if they do truly expand their market share.

Daveman Deluxe
Jul 3, 2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Catfish_Man
A low 1.x GHz chip with Altivec @ .13 micron SOI and 4 pipeline stages seems about right (although before I compared it to other chips it seemed much too high). Moto's gotten 1.43GHz @ .18 micron SOI and 7 stages. Intel hit 1.4 GHz with 10 stages @ .13 micron non-SOI. AMD used 14 stages @ .18 micron non-SOI (iirc), and got up to something like 1.8GHz (I can't remember when TBred was introduced).

Actually, the G4e processor (the G4 with seven stages and SOI) only goes to 1.0 GHz. Apple actually overclocked the 1.0 GHz G4 to sell at 1.42 GHz.

ibookin'
Jul 3, 2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
Actually, the G4e processor (the G4 with seven stages and SOI) only goes to 1.0 GHz. Apple actually overclocked the 1.0 GHz G4 to sell at 1.42 GHz.

Do you have any proof of this at all?

This has been discussed before, and I think the consensus was that the chips are in fact not overclocked.

macrumors12345
Jul 3, 2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
Actually, the G4e processor (the G4 with seven stages and SOI) only goes to 1.0 GHz. Apple actually overclocked the 1.0 GHz G4 to sell at 1.42 GHz.

No, Apple does not overclock the G4 to get it to 1.42 Ghz. Give it up - this horse is not only dead but is in fact a big bloody pulp of mutilated meat...stop beating it!!

hvfsl
Jul 3, 2003, 01:14 PM
I think they should use the G3 with SIMD. This is because the G3 is cheaper than the G4 and the G3 is the same speed as the G4 in most things except when AltiVec is enabled. The G4 is would actually be the same speed as a pentium3 at the same megahertz if it was not for AltiVec.

snoopy
Jul 4, 2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by ftaok

. . . IBM only licensed Altivec from Moto because their customer (Apple) requested them to do so. If the Mojave does come out with Altivec, I suspect that Apple will use it. But a Mojave with Altivec is no longer a G3. It becomes a G4 in essence.



IBM did not have to license AltiVec from Motorola. The US patents for the AltiVec SIMD engine are held by IBM, Motorola and Apple. IBM implemented their own version of this SIMD engine in the 970, and Apple has always called it the Velocity Engine. IBM publicly stated they are a co-developer and have a right to this technology. However, I think Motorola has a copyright on the AltiVec name.

I agree that Apple will call the Mojave a G4. It will run applications that require a G4, as stated in system requirements. Calling it a G3 would confuse customers who want to find out which applications will run, and which will not. If Motorola does not get their act together, Mojave may replace Motorola completely. However, I would like to see two viable suppliers of PPC processors, not just one.

shadowfax
Jul 4, 2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by snoopy
However, I would like to see two viable suppliers of PPC processors, not just one. well, motorola kinda screwed itself on that "viable" part... i hope they get their act together too. competition for apple's business might be nice. but one thing to consider is that Dell gets a lot of discounts on intel stuff because they agree to ONLY ship intel chips on their hardware. i dunno if there would be a dynamic like this in the PPC market, but it's possible. if motorola gets shut out by apple, they will still have market for their processors. so there will always be potential competition on the PPC side, i suppose, whether apple drops moto or not. and dropping them for an exclusive contract with IBM might be better for apple.

Ensoniq
Jul 4, 2003, 12:31 PM
People keep talking about the PPC 7457 from Motorola as if there is actually some chance it's going to come out. Is there any real evidence that it's close to being manufactured and shipping?

For all we know, IBM's Mojave G3+SIMD is closer to completion. The recent 750GX info doesn't discount that the 750VX may be around the corner too, in a surprise blow to Motorola by Apple. :)

XnavxeMiyyep
Jul 4, 2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by hvfsl
I think they should use the G3 with SIMD. This is because the G3 is cheaper than the G4 and the G3 is the same speed as the G4 in most things except when AltiVec is enabled. The G4 is would actually be the same speed as a pentium3 at the same megahertz if it was not for AltiVec.
There's something that I didn't need to hear. :(
But isn't the G4 supposed to be 3 times as fast as a Pentium 3?

DakotaGuy
Jul 4, 2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
Actually, the G4e processor (the G4 with seven stages and SOI) only goes to 1.0 GHz. Apple actually overclocked the 1.0 GHz G4 to sell at 1.42 GHz.

Actually the 1.25Ghz G4 was an overclocked 1Ghz G4 and the 1.42Ghz G4 was an overclocked 1.25Ghz. So according to this statement the 1.25Ghz started as an overclocked 1Ghz, but magically became a true 1.25Ghz chip and then they overclocked again. Okay this statement is a joke, but I actually have heard stuff like this...funny

ftaok
Jul 7, 2003, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by snoopy
IBM did not have to license AltiVec from Motorola. The US patents for the AltiVec SIMD engine are held by IBM, Motorola and Apple. IBM implemented their own version of this SIMD engine in the 970, and Apple has always called it the Velocity Engine. IBM publicly stated they are a co-developer and have a right to this technology. However, I think Motorola has a copyright on the AltiVec name.
OK, I stand corrected. It's just a little strange that IBM is calling it Altivec.

ftaok
Jul 7, 2003, 06:42 AM
Originally posted by Ensoniq
People keep talking about the PPC 7457 from Motorola as if there is actually some chance it's going to come out. Is there any real evidence that it's close to being manufactured and shipping?

For all we know, IBM's Mojave G3+SIMD is closer to completion. The recent 750GX info doesn't discount that the 750VX may be around the corner too, in a surprise blow to Motorola by Apple. :) Motorola's 7457 is quite real. It's slated for release in Q3 2003, which means anytime between July and September. Whether Apple will use them or not is the question.

The 7457 has been available to "select" customers for testing for about 4 months or so now. Since it's a direct replacement for the 7455, Apple would be able to drop them right into an existing motherboard.

reflex
Jul 7, 2003, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Actually the 1.25Ghz G4 was an overclocked 1Ghz G4 and the 1.42Ghz G4 was an overclocked 1.25Ghz. So according to this statement the 1.25Ghz started as an overclocked 1Ghz, but magically became a true 1.25Ghz chip and then they overclocked again. Okay this statement is a joke, but I actually have heard stuff like this...funny

Processors are tested at various speeds when they're manufactured. They are then released at the highest speed they run reliably. So (theoretically) if a G4 passes the test at 1.42GHz, then it's not overclocked.

In the end, what does it matter?