iTMS still not reverse engineered yet? [Archive]

lazyn00b

Jul 2, 2003, 01:10 AM

Why is my iPod so empty? I am desperate to buy songs from iTunes Music Store but there is no iTunes for Windows. Apple says they will not release a "winTunes" until the end of the year! The whole reason I bought my iPod is because I saw all the ads showing happy people buying songs for only 99 cents. Why does Apple treat winPodders like crap when we buy so many more iPods?

Seriously, I have scoured the internet searching for a solution: iTMS is based on XML (right?), so shouldn't it be possible for some clever web programmer to whip up an interface to the iTMS that can be used on any platform? Unfortunately, all relevant google searches come up with crap about hacking "sharing" protocol for iTunes - who cares? I just want to buy songs. I was hoping the rumor gurus at these forums might have the lowdown on whether there is any ongoing attempt to reverse engineer the iTMS for legitimate cross-platform use. If not, do you guys know of any forums where I should look for info?

iJon

Jul 2, 2003, 01:19 AM

haha why does apple treat windows users like crap. thats a good one. maybe you should think about for a little while. either you wait, or buy a mac. simple as that.

iJon

tazo

Jul 2, 2003, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by iJon
haha why does apple treat windows users like crap. thats a good one. maybe you should think about for a little while. either you wait, or buy a mac. simple as that.

iJon

thats a bit cruel.

my only advice is that you wait until the windows version comes out.

iJon

Jul 2, 2003, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by tazo
thats a bit cruel.

my only advice is that you wait until the windows version comes out.
yeah yeah, he knows its the truth, its common sense. its like complain because microsoft doesnt give us direct x, all i wann do is play some games.

iJon

StrongGlad

Jul 2, 2003, 01:30 AM

I understand your frustration, but I'm not so sure the blame lies exclusively with Apple. The consensus seems to be that the major record labels agreed to this arrangement on the premise that it would be Mac-only for a certain period of time, so as to allow them to assess the business model and limit any potential "damage" (e.g. hacked AAC files spreading all over the net).

I'm not saying Apple has a finished Windows version just sitting there, waiting to be released, but its entirely possible that they're delaying devlopment because they're bound by contract not to release it until, say, December.

lazyn00b

Jul 2, 2003, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by iJon
buy a mac. simple as that.

iJon

Thanks for your suggestion! Sadly, buying a Mac is not an option for me unless I win the Powerball. Besides, it seems silly to buy a $2000 computer just so I can save money on music, no? A superior solution would be a web-based interface for iTMS so that any poor guy can buy songs for his iPod, don't you think?

iJon

Jul 2, 2003, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by lazyn00b
Thanks for your suggestion! Sadly, buying a Mac is not an option for me unless I win the Powerball. Besides, it seems silly to buy a $2000 computer just so I can save money on music, no? A superior solution would be a web-based interface for iTMS so that any poor guy can buy songs for his iPod, don't you think?
dont worry, its coming. soon hopefully.

iJon

tazo

Jul 2, 2003, 02:08 AM

therevolution

Jul 2, 2003, 02:09 AM

You can't blame Apple for wanting to use their product in an effort to get people to switch, now can you? :)

I honestly don't think the music store would be reverse-engineerable. I don't know whether iTMS does use XML, but that makes no difference. XML is a type of metalanguage that makes data handling easier. It doesn't mean that everything is open for everyone to see. Just ask Microsoft, who is integrating XML into their file formats in the next release of Office. Does this mean competing applications will be able to read and write to Microsoft Office files? Hell no. Microsoft would lose their Office dominance REAL quick if they did.

I want all hardware I can buy in stores to have Mac drivers. I want to be able to run any application I can find on the PC on my Mac (without paying for the handy but very slow Virtual PC). Companies out there COULD choose to do these things, but it's not a perfect world. They make decisions that they believe is in their best financial interests. No one promised you the iTMS when you bought your iPod. It does what you paid for it to do. Just be patient. At least you know you'll get the iTMS at some point, right?

MacCoaster

Jul 2, 2003, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by therevolution
Just ask Microsoft, who is integrating XML into their file formats in the next release of Office. Does this mean competing applications will be able to read and write to Microsoft Office files? Hell no. Microsoft would lose their Office dominance REAL quick if they did.
From someone who actually uses Office 2003 with XML stuff, I'd have to say this is wrong. Word 2003 (and assumedly Word 11 for Mac when it comes) does save to XML without formatting, exactly what XML is designed for--just data. However, it can also save to XML with WordML (Word Markup Language) to preserve formatting. The syntax is there, available to read in any text editor. I'm sure that competing products would be quick to support it.

Word will also let you use any XML schema with your XML Word documents, allowing XML to be presented in any way one likes.

Word still has the proprietary .doc format (note the new XML format uses .xml, not .doc) so backwards compatibility is kept.

rainman::|:|

Jul 2, 2003, 12:20 PM

iTunes for Windows needs to be completely written from scratch. To Apple's high standards of excellence. Which, on a PC platform, takes a very long time-- Hence the wait. Apple is developing ITMS as a courtesy to PC users, but the only people they're responsible for pleasing are mac users IMHO...

:)
pnw

tjwett

Jul 2, 2003, 01:51 PM

i can't help but think that the Windows version of iTunes and iTMS could possibly destroy this entire thing for Apple. i find it very hard to believe that we won't see millions of hacked AAC files freely being distributed all over the net. the windows user base is too large and too viscious to not hack and krack this thing to death. i wish it would stay Apple-only.

therevolution

Jul 2, 2003, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by MacCoaster
From someone who actually uses Office 2003 with XML stuff, I'd have to say this is wrong. Word 2003 (and assumedly Word 11 for Mac when it comes) does save to XML without formatting, exactly what XML is designed for--just data. However, it can also save to XML with WordML (Word Markup Language) to preserve formatting. The syntax is there, available to read in any text editor. I'm sure that competing products would be quick to support it.

Word will also let you use any XML schema with your XML Word documents, allowing XML to be presented in any way one likes.

Word still has the proprietary .doc format (note the new XML format uses .xml, not .doc) so backwards compatibility is kept. I point you to two news stories on this subject:News.com article (http://news.com.com/2100-1012-996528.html?tag=lh) and discussion on slashdot. (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/13/2031259&mode=thread&tid=109) These are a couple of months old, but to my knowledge, nothing has changed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

To sum up: There are a lot of things wrong with XML in Office. XML formatting abilities are only in the Pro and Enterprise... not in Standard. WordML is not fully documented... so good luck to other programs trying to read those files. Microsoft's XML schema that they will use is -- and will always be -- proprietary. Please read the news.com article and browse some of the user comments in the /. article for a better explanation.

Say it with me: XML does not mean open!

lazyn00b

Jul 2, 2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by paulwhannel
Apple is developing ITMS as a courtesy to PC users, but the only people they're responsible for pleasing are mac users IMHO...

Are you kidding? So Apple has no responsiblity towards people who shelled out hundreds of dollars a piece for Apple iPods just because they are not Mac users, too?

Back on topic: Basically what I am searching for is signs of a development effort to provide an interface for iTMS for platforms other than OS X. Remember when Napster got really popular and there was no Linux or Mac support so suddenly there were all these 3rd party front-ends (Gnapster, etc). I want to stress that I am NOT interested in "cracking" AAC or stealing music.

Thank you all for responding to this thread. I suspect very strongly that someone, somewhere is working to solve this issue - sooner or later we'll hear about it and be able to share the good news!

therevolution

Jul 2, 2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by lazyn00b
I suspect very strongly that someone, somewhere is working to solve this issue - sooner or later we'll hear about it and be able to share the good news! You're right -- it's Apple :)

Besides, Napster clones never had to interface with a secure server to handle transactions. Credit card numbers, the database of users stored on Apple's servers... I just don't see it happening from a 3rd party, dude. Just for argument's sake, on the off chance they succeeded, how fast would they get slapped with a cease and desist?

lazyn00b

Jul 2, 2003, 03:06 PM

@therevolution: You make a good point! But, as a previous poster mentioned, there are reports that music companies have been holding off on giving the "thumbs up" to iTMS for Windows. It may very well turn out that the ONLY way for Windows/Linux users to buy songs from iTMS to play on their iPods will be through a 3rd party interface.

As for the cease-and-desist issue, this has been addressed sucessfully many times by having a source-code only project based in the US, with binaries distributed from a server in Russia or Brazil or wherever.

You may be right about the technical issues being difficult or even insurmountable - but if Apple keeps stalling, I guarantee you , someone will try. There is a lot of pent up frustration about this issue among winPodders, every day we read glowing articles from CNN to Slashdot about how wonderful iTMS is, and then go back to listening to the same old crappy CDs on our half-empty iPods - LOL! Just like the recent success of the guy who figured out how to run Linux on the XBOX without a modchip, all it takes is ONE SMART GUY to figure it out, and the rest is academic.

the future

Jul 2, 2003, 03:26 PM

Maybe this is just God's way of telling you to pick up a cheap G4 on ebay and become a happy switcher!

jayscheuerle

Jul 2, 2003, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by the future
Maybe this is just God's way of telling you to pick up a cheap G4 on ebay and become a happy switcher!

Heck, the cheapest iBooks are under a grand now!

jxyama

Jul 2, 2003, 03:40 PM

apple did publically state that the Win version of iTMS will be available before the end of the year. you knew this, we all knew this when we bought our ipods. it's not the end of year yet, is it?

about third-party iTMS... that would be ridiculous. i doubt the contract apple signed with labels will allow some joe-hacker to offer the music to PC users.

this is not napster... iTMS is a serious commercial venture for apple and stakes are higher. because apple has been entrusted with very private information (user names, addresses, credit card numbers...), they will be very, VERY swift and thorough about squashing any illegal attempts to hack into iTMS.

tazo

Jul 2, 2003, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by lazyn00b
Are you kidding? So Apple has no responsiblity towards people who shelled out hundreds of dollars a piece for Apple iPods just because they are not Mac users, too?

Apple promised they would work on your computer. iPods and the iTMS are completely independent of each other.

rueyeet

Jul 2, 2003, 04:00 PM

lazyn00b:

iTunes for Windows is expected, the record companies willing, by the end of the year. Apple's as eager for your money as you are to spend it, believe me! But I'm curious that in all the hype surrounding the introduction of the iTMS, that you never managed to see that it was only currently for Macs. Practically every single article on the thing, not to mention the Apple site, all made no bones about this. Wouldn't you want to investigate a little before dropping several hundred dollars on an iPod? Caveat emptor: it pays to be an informed consumer.

In general:

Really, I sincerely hope that no one reverse engineers the iTMS and comes up with a third-party alternative unless the effort is sanctioned both by Apple and the record companies. Remember that those agreements were only for a year, and the Big Five could very well pull the plug on the whole thing if they perceive it as being easily hackable.

I also would like to see the iTMS available for Linux....currently I have three machines that I'd like to authorize my purchased songs on. One is running Jaguar, one Win 2K Pro, and one Yellow Dog Linux. But that's another thread. :D

I've also used MusicMatch with my previous MP3 player, and I vastly prefer iTunes.

lazyn00b

Jul 2, 2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by tazo
iPods and the iTMS are completely independent of each other.

Then I suggest you take a look at this:

http://www.apple.com/ipod/

Clearly Apple is conflating the iTMS with iPod marketing. Also note the "For Mac and Windows" at top in big print. I am not saying Apple is deceptive, but they are certainly being disingenuous because they are mixing in Mac-only features with their advertising spiel for Mac/Windows iPods. The "fine print" is hardly relevant to the iPod customer who thought he was getting all this great functionality only to be disappointed later. But, again, I do not want to bash Apple, I just want see if anybody has figured out a way to work around them :) I figured if anybody was aware of an "underground" effort to fix this problem, the Mac Rumor Gods may have heard of it, that's all.

tazo

Jul 2, 2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by lazyn00b
Then I suggest you take a look at this:

http://www.apple.com/ipod/

Clearly Apple is conflating the iTMS with iPod marketing. Also note the "For Mac and Windows" at top in big print. I am not saying Apple is deceptive, but they are certainly being disingenuous because they are mixing in Mac-only features with their advertising spiel for Mac/Windows iPods. The "fine print" is hardly relevant to the iPod customer who thought he was getting all this great functionality only to be disappointed later. But, again, I do not want to bash Apple, I just want see if anybody has figured out a way to work around them :) I figured if anybody was aware of an "underground" effort to fix this problem, the Mac Rumor Gods may have heard of it, that's all.

The page is apple.com/ipod. Not apple.com/itunes:) Apple says the iPod is for windows and mac. You are trying to draw blood from stone bud :)

lazyn00b

Jul 2, 2003, 05:52 PM

Did you really look at the page tazo? Check out the part that starts "Downloads done right" - they give the impression that access to the iTMS is something that "ships" with the iPod. Advertising is all about impressions - and they clearly give the impression that iTMS is something iPod buyers can expect to enjoy.

tazo

Jul 2, 2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by lazyn00b
Did you really look at the page tazo? Check out the part that starts "Downloads done right" - they give the impression that access to the iTMS is something that "ships" with the iPod. Advertising is all about impressions - and they clearly give the impression that iTMS is something iPod buyers can expect to enjoy.

It even says, for easy transfer between 3 macintosh computers :P

pseudobrit

Jul 2, 2003, 08:50 PM

It's right there in black and white:

The iTunes Music Store is included with iTunes 4 which ships with the iPod.

iTunes 4 is Mac only. I like the way that sounds: "Mac only."

How's it feel?

Pete_Hoover

Jul 2, 2003, 09:06 PM

Marble

Jul 3, 2003, 01:25 AM

Do you have any friends who can access the iTunes music store for you, for now? Keep in mind that the iPod you own right now is better than any other MP3 player on the market, whether or not it has iTMS to saturate it. You'll get it in time. Like someone else said, Apple wants your money just as much as you want to give it.
If no one here seems impressed by your distress, it is because we, as Mac users, have become chillingly used to it.

lazyn00b

Jul 3, 2003, 07:55 PM

@Marble: thank you for your suggestion, and this is exactly what I'm going to try to do. I found somebody with a new iBook who is willing to let me use it to buy songs. One thing that is not clear to me though - once I download my purchased songs to my iPod, will there be any way to back them up to my PC in case I have to reformat the iPod? I sent an email to Apple asking this question and have not yet received a reply.

benixau

Jul 3, 2003, 10:58 PM

Said it before and will sayit again - iTMS does not mean iTunes.

Apple just has to release a program that lets people buy from the iTMS and then put the files wherever they want on their computer. If they were smart they would also make it a mininmalistic AAC player (since MS is so openly supporting industry standards) and then they can have their iTMS and their AAC. No problems.

Better yet, keep using MusicMatch and just release an AAC plug-in. Less work and they keep iPod functionality.

It is possible with only one extra piece of software, an extra plug-in and an updated plug-in (MM -> iPod so as to recognise AAC files for transfer)