Phelps' daughter arrested for flag mutilation

[leekohler]

As much as I hate these people, flag burning/desecration laws are stupid.

http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?date=2007/06/06/4

A member of the Kansas group that has drawn criticism for anti-gay protesting at soldiers' funerals has been arrested for letting her 10-year-old son stomp on a U.S. flag during a demonstration.

She promised Wednesday to challenge the state's flag desecration law in court.

Shirley Phelps-Roper, 49, will be charged with flag mutilation, disturbing the peace and contributing to the delinquency of a minor, Sarpy County Attorney Lee Polikov said Wednesday.

Phelps-Roper, a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, acknowledged that she allowed her son Jonah to stand on the flag Tuesday -- something she says is protected by the U.S. Constitution.

"It's utter nonsense," said Phelps-Roper, a lawyer. "I don't know what else to tell you other than that we'll see them in federal court."

[zimv20]

As much as I hate these people, flag burning/desecration laws are stupid.


agreed. i hope they do challenge the law.

[Airforce]

As much as I hate these people, flag burning/desecration laws are stupid.

http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?date=2007/06/06/4

I think flag burning/desecration laws are great! Then again, I have a bit of respect for the thing ;)

Flag mutilation and disturbing the peace are each punishable by 90 days in jail, a $500 fine or both. Contributing to the delinquency of a minor is punishable by a year in jail, a $1,000 fine or both. All three are misdemeanors.

I say hit the parent with the fine and the days in jail. Make her read nothing, but the flag's history and why it is so respected. :cool:

[leekohler]

I think flag burning/desecration laws are great! Then again, I have a bit of respect for the thing ;)

This a free country, is it not? If we aren't free burn a piece of cloth, then I'd say the flag truly represents nothing.

I say hit the parent with the fine and the days in jail. Make her read nothing, but the flag's history and why it is so respected. :cool:

I say no- that defeats the purpose of a free country.

[Airforce]

This a free country, is it not? If we aren't free burn a piece of cloth, then I'd say the flag truly represents nothing.



I say no- that defeats the purpose of a free country.

Free country or not, we are civilized and there is no reason such a law shouldn't be put in place. If you feel as though you aren't free and the flag represents nothing if you can't burn it, I'll gladly sit here and laugh. Give me a break. Have a bit of respect for something that represents such a great country. :rolleyes:

[leekohler]

Free country or not, we are civilized and there is no reason such a law shouldn't be put in place. If you feel as though you aren't free and the flag represents nothing if you can't burn it, I'll gladly sit here and laugh. Give me a break. Have a bit of respect for something that represents such a great country. :rolleyes:

Sit and laugh then. This isn't some communist country where people can't speak out against the government. The flag is a symbol of our government, is it not? People who burn/desectrate the flag do so for a reason, not just to be silly. It's definitely a form of free speech that should absolutley be allowed.

[Airforce]

Sit and laugh then. This isn't some communist country where people can't speak out against the government. The flag is a symbol of our government, is it not? People who burn/desectrate the flag do so for a reason, not just to be silly. It's definitely a form of free speech that should absolutley be allowed.

It's so much more than just that. Burning the flag is just like spitting it the face of all the folks who died for you to sit on your ass and type that nice little post out. It's so easy to do such things to such a symbol when you really don't have a clue just how much it stands for. Unfortunately, it seems there will always be a group of people who will just never understand this. Sensitive subject for me.....Breathing...breathing :p

[aquajet]

I think flag burning/desecration laws are great! Then again, I have a bit of respect for the thing ;)

So in other words, you have respect for a piece of cloth, not what it stands for. Very un-American, if you ask me.

[aquajet]

It's so much more than just that. Burning the flag is just like spitting it the face of all the folks who died for you to sit on your ass and type that nice little post out. It's so easy to do such things to such a symbol when you really don't have a clue just how much it stands for. Unfortunately, it seems there will always be a group of people who will just never understand this. Sensitive subject for me.....Breathing...breathing :p

Actually, I believe it is you without the clue.

[zimv20]

It's so much more than just that. Burning the flag is just like spitting it the face of all the folks who died for you to sit on your ass and type that nice little post out. It's so easy to do such things to such a symbol when you really don't have a clue just how much it stands for.

exercising your "right" to not be offended, eh?

symbols mean different things to different people. there's no reason your meaning should trump someone else's, especially when it means enacting a law to protect your sensitivity.

[Airforce]

So in other words, you have respect for a piece of cloth, not what it stands for. Very un-American, if you ask me.

Negative my friend. Having respect for that cloth is having respect for what it stands for ;)

[leekohler]

It's so much more than just that. Burning the flag is just like spitting it the face of all the folks who died for you to sit on your ass and type that nice little post out. It's so easy to do such things to such a symbol when you really don't have a clue just how much it stands for. Unfortunately, it seems there will always be a group of people who will just never understand this. Sensitive subject for me.....Breathing...breathing :p

Sensitive subject for me too- I either live in free country or I don't. I think you're interpreting flag burning the wrong way. I don't see how it's spitting in the face of service members at all, it's more about spitting in the face of people like GW Bush, who mocks the flag and the constitution with his policies every day. I can guarantee you it has nothing to do with service members or past sacrifices. And don't start on me with the military thing- I have lots of friends and family in the service, some in Iraq right now, and they understand. I'm sorry if you don't see the distinction.

[aquajet]

Negative my friend. Having respect for that cloth is having respect for what it stands for ;)

Then do tell us what it stands for...

[Fearless Leader]

I think flag burning laws are stupid also. It's a piece of cloth. If it had turned into socks and someone burned it no body would care.


Burning the flag is just like spitting it the face of all the folks who died for you to sit on your ass and type that nice little post out.

Personally I hate it when people pull the "look at how many people died for you..." crap. I can see the soldiers in the war, "Oh yah killed that Brit, now my great great great grandson can post **** up on macrumors."

[Airforce]

Personally I hate it when people pull the "look at how many people died for you..." crap. I can see the soldiers in the war, "Oh yah killed that Brit, now my great great great grandson can post **** up on macrumors."

Well, I don't know about my great great great grandpa, but my grandfather did help defend that "brit" :p

[cycocelica]

As much as I don't like the flag burning laws, I want nothing more than to see the Phelps family suffer greatly.

[bartelby]

As much as I don't like the flag burning laws, I want nothing more than to see the Phelps family suffer greatly.

Yeah, it's a dilemma isn't it!:)

[aquajet]

"It's utter nonsense," said Phelps-Roper, a lawyer. "I don't know what else to tell you other than that we'll see them in federal court."

As much as it pains me, I agree with her 100% and I support her. But don't get any funny ideas -- I still despise her and the rest of the degenerates in her family.

[leekohler]

Yeah, it's a dilemma isn't it!:)

Yeah, but this is the wrong thing. We need to wait til they do something truly stupid, which the insane always do, then put them in jail and throw away the key.

[SMM]

I think flag burning/desecration laws are great! Then again, I have a bit of respect for the thing ;)



I say hit the parent with the fine and the days in jail. Make her read nothing, but the flag's history and why it is so respected. :cool:

So, force your beliefs down someone else's throat. It shows me you have zero respect for what the flag symbolizes; freedom. That is about as hypocritical as it gets.

[bartelby]

Yeah, but this is the wrong thing. We need to wait til they do something truly stupid, which the insane always do, then put them in jail and throw away the key.

Maybe the idea is to get them for anything they can and stick 'em away one by one.

[psychofreak]

It's so much more than just that. Burning the flag is just like spitting it the face of all the folks who died for you to sit on your ass and type that nice little post out. It's so easy to do such things to such a symbol when you really don't have a clue just how much it stands for. Unfortunately, it seems there will always be a group of people who will just never understand this. Sensitive subject for me.....Breathing...breathing :p I call nonsense...if you can't say that your 'free-country' is crap in any way you want that doesn't harm someone (even if you're wrong) then it isn't a 'free-country' at all

Yeah, but this is the wrong thing. We need to wait til they do something truly stupid, which the insane always do, then put them in jail and throw away the key.

Mmm...I think they could play that pretty well as martyrdom...making a mockery out of them somehow would be better...

[Dont Hurt Me]

If Bush & Cheney can piss all over the Constitution,Bill of Rights and the Geneva convention,All our immigrations laws and everything our Flag stands for why cant this kid do it? You either are free or your not, Im afraid freedom is now a spin term. The All Powerful State is never wrong is it.

[IJ Reilly]

The ACLU should step in to defend Phelps. Now that's something I'd pull up a chair to watch.

[jayb2000]

Hey Airforce, how about if I burn a flag with 48 stars?
Or 14 stripes?
Is that ok?

or if I burn a Canadian or British flag, since they fought along side us in WWII and Iraq?

What if it is a flag made of paper?

What if I am burning a flag to retire it?

If what you are saying is that a particular form of political expression should not be allowed, then you missed the point of the 1st Amendment during high school/college/basic training/life.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Oh, and on topic - yeah, the Phelps suck and I wish them twice as much pain and suffering as they have caused.

[mactastic]

People who support flag-desecration laws are the worst kind of PC thugs.

Now, on topic. The worst thing about this whole episode is that the Phelps family member is going to rake in another bunch of money from a lawsuit that should never have been a possibility. The anti-flag burning crowd in Kansas is going to get their law overturned and have to hand over a bunch of money to the Phelps family. Stupid, but that's your typical short-sighted righty law-making for you.

[Thomas Veil]

Burning the flag is just like spitting it the face of all the folks who died for you to sit on your ass and type that nice little post out.So the U.S. flag is a symbol only of soldiers who've died in war?

[mactastic]

So you can't burn it, but you can slap in on your SUV, go off-roading and cover it in mud, take it through the car wash until it's tattered and faded -- and that's perfectly fine with the PC crowd.

You can even burn it reverentially as a disposal method, but you cannot burn it as a form of protest. Makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

Another example of the desire to criminalize thought.

[someguy]

As others have said, flag-burning is a form of expression and I think freedom of expression (speech) is still available in this country, is it not? Have they taken that away from us yet?

We're either free or we're not. I see no harm in burning a flag.

Negative my friend. Having respect for that cloth is having respect for what it stands for ;) Then do tell us what it stands for...
I would still like to see how Airforce answers this one.

[LethalWolfe]

Put me in the "flag desecration laws are dumb" category.

Being an Army brat I can understand the knee jerk reaction soldiers can have to flag desecration, but America didn't fight a revolutionary war just so we could fly a different flag. We fought a revolutionary war for independence and the Founding Fathers felt so strongly the need to ensure the freedom of beliefs, expression, protest, and speech that they made it the first priority in the Bill of Rights. I don't see how being against laws that limit our First Amendment rights is a bad thing.

Airforce, I don't like the idea of men and women shedding blood in the name of freedom overseas while the government slowly erodes our freedom at home. A soldier's allegiance is first and foremost to the Constitution of the United States.


Lethal

[Dont Hurt Me]

Its patriotic to defend liberty & freedom. Its traitor to want to protect a cloth on a stick. Liberty & Freedom is what our country used to be based on in the old days.

[lord patton]

The day it's illegal to burn the flag is the day the flag deserves to be burned.

[psychofreak]

The ACLU should step in to defend Phelps. Now that's something I'd pull up a chair to watch.

I'd like to see how the Phelps would handle it if some Gay rights group helped out...I'd love to see that...

[zap2]

So you can't burn it, but you can slap in on your SUV, go off-roading and cover it in mud, take it through the car wash until it's tattered and faded -- and that's perfectly fine with the PC crowd.




Only if that SUV gets under 20MPH.....if it doesn't, its spitting in the face of the every american EVER.

:eek:

[obeygiant]

I don't associate anti-flag burning with being politically correct. That ridiculous. It's about respect of the country. And no, the flag does not represent the US Government. Its associated with the idea of america, or if you're so inclined, the idea of what america should be.

Go ahead and burn the American Flag, but I would never do it. I tend to never agree with the "why" the flag is being burned, there just doesn't ever seem to be a good reason.

[EricNau]

Wouldn't it be easier just to outlaw anyone with the last name of Phelps?


We're either free or we're not.
If that's the way you want to see it, well, then, you're not ...and you never were.

That said, I can't say I agree with burning the flag, but I don't agree with it being illegal either.

So you can't burn it, but you can slap in on your SUV, go off-roading and cover it in mud, take it through the car wash until it's tattered and faded -- and that's perfectly fine with the PC crowd.
You just listed my biggest pet-peeve ever. I wouldn't burn the flag, but there have been days where I wanted to burn the people waving their ripped, tattered, mud-covered, mutilated, dilapidated, now-black-and-brown-with-orange-colored-stars flag.

[yg17]

A tough one. I support anyone's right to burn the flag, but then again, I also want to see the entire Phelps family thrown in jail for good :D

[miloblithe]

I don't associate anti-flag burning with being politically correct. That ridiculous. It's about respect of the country. And no, the flag does not represent the US Government. Its associated with the idea of america, or if you're so inclined, the idea of what america should be.

Go ahead and burn the American Flag, but I would never do it. I tend to never agree with the "why" the flag is being burned, there just doesn't ever seem to be a good reason.

Well, depends on what you mean by politically correct. If it's just jargon for left wing, then obviously it doesn't work. But if the words mean something together like insisting that people express themselves in a way that adheres to a set of political beliefs, then obviously saying you can't burn the flag fits.

[Legolamb]

Sorry I came late to this thread but I read it as "arrested for genital mutilation":eek:

[Scarlet Fever]

Sorry I came late to this thread but I read it as "arrested for genital mutilation":eek:

how the hell did you get flag and genital confused?!?

you're not wearing American flag boxers, are you? :p

[IJ Reilly]

Well, depends on what you mean by politically correct. If it's just jargon for left wing, then obviously it doesn't work. But if the words mean something together like insisting that people express themselves in a way that adheres to a set of political beliefs, then obviously saying you can't burn the flag fits.

Exactly. Even more to the point, restricting a form of freedom of expression for the sole reason that it might offend someone. Conservatives like to believe that only liberals are prone to this, but of course it's not true.

[solvs]

Then again, I have a bit of respect for the thing ;)
Count me in as one of those who respect the idea behind it more than the symbol itself.

It's so easy to do such things to such a symbol when you really don't have a clue just how much it stands for.
You're the only one here who doesn't seem to know what it stands for. You can be upset. I would too. But it's those freedoms it represents, that those people have died for (some of them, not all wars we've fought have been about freedom), that's the important part. Take that away, and the flag means nothing. I, for one, don't want that.

Just appreciate the irony of the freedom behind that flag that allows someone to desecrate it.

[it5five]

Flag worship is ridiculous. I love how all of these wingers get so offended when people want to burn a flag that represents absolutely nothing that was more than likely made in China.

[Thomas Veil]

Flag worship...That's another thing. To raise the flag to the level of a holy object is, to me, a weird kind of religious-political idolatry.

[obeygiant]

burn a flag that represents absolutely nothing

If thats what you think, then there is no use talking about it with you. You might as well hang a white sheet out for the 4th of July.

Well, depends on what you mean by politically correct. If it's just jargon for left wing, then obviously it doesn't work. But if the words mean something together like insisting that people express themselves in a way that adheres to a set of political beliefs, then obviously saying you can't burn the flag fits.

Actually, Political Correctness refers to a use of language or behavior that provides a minimum of offense to someone or group. Its not necessarily trying to adhere to a set of political beliefs eventhough the word is political correctness. Unless you view someone being anti-war or anti-abortion as trying to be politically correct. Still, I don't think being anti-flag burning jibes with the whole idea of being PC. Again, I would never burn the american flag, but I certainly can't stop others from doing it eventhough I think its stupid.

[obeygiant]

Count me in as one of those who respect the idea behind it more than the symbol itself.


Isn't that a contradiction? Why not deface every apple store you see and then proclaim you love apple and buy their products?

[iBlue]

Sorry I came late to this thread but I read it as "arrested for genital mutilation":eek:
I read it as "fag mutilation" :o and while I was shocked/horrified my knee-jerk reaction was: "It's about time they got arrested for their harassment and hate."

Suppose I'm glad it was only a flag mutilated but I don't think the sentence will quite measure up. That whole family isn't fit for normal society.

[atszyman]

Isn't that a contradiction? Why not deface every apple store you see and then proclaim you love apple and buy their products?

But that kind of behavior is already illegal since (more than likely) the Apple stores are private property.

Burning the flag can be offensive, but it's the flag that you went out and bought and thus is your own personal property. If someone buys Apple products simply because they are more fun to run over in their cars than Dells, that's fine by me, it's their property go ahead and do what you want. It may be wasteful and offensive to others but I can't tell them what to do with their own private property no matter how offensive I find the act.

Somehow I think we've had this conversation before (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=211835&highlight=once+symbollic+flag+ammendment).

[IJ Reilly]

Actually, Political Correctness refers to a use of language or behavior that provides a minimum of offense to someone or group.

Isn't that exactly what I just said? The only rationale behind flag burning prohibitions is that the act offends some people. Passing laws to prevent it is a virtual dictionary definition of PC.

[mactastic]

Actually, Political Correctness refers to a use of language or behavior that provides a minimum of offense to someone or group.
Isn't that exactly what flag desecration laws are, in a nutshell? It's a behavior that, as we've seen, offends someone or some group.

You're looking things up in your Right Wing Dictionary again, aren't you? :D

[Queso]

It's so much more than just that. Burning the flag is just like spitting it the face of all the folks who died for you to sit on your ass and type that nice little post out. It's so easy to do such things to such a symbol when you really don't have a clue just how much it stands for. Unfortunately, it seems there will always be a group of people who will just never understand this. Sensitive subject for me.....Breathing...breathing :p
I'd say a greater symbol of your country and all those who died for it is the US Constitution. Doesn't stop Bushco. stomping all over that though does it?

Until the Stars and Stripes is worthy again of respect, people should just burn away.

[miloblithe]

Actually, Political Correctness refers to a use of language or behavior that provides a minimum of offense to someone or group. Its not necessarily trying to adhere to a set of political beliefs eventhough the word is political correctness. Unless you view someone being anti-war or anti-abortion as trying to be politically correct. Still, I don't think being anti-flag burning jibes with the whole idea of being PC. Again, I would never burn the american flag, but I certainly can't stop others from doing it eventhough I think its stupid.

You're right. That is a better definition. Although as others have pointed out, this still seems to fit.

[LethalWolfe]

Isn't that a contradiction?
How is it a contradiction? The US flag could be the Stars and Stripes, a rattlesnake w/the caption, "Don't tread on me", or pink poke-a-dots on a field of blue sunflowers yet it's symbolism would never change. The flag itself isn't important. What the flag represents is. One of the things the flag is supposed to represent is free speech so isn't it a contradiction (and a bit ironic in this case) to say you believe in what the flag represents and you believe in restricting the peoples' right to free speech?

I don't agree w/flag mutilation, but just because I don't agree w/it doesn't mean I think it should be illegal.


Lethal

[iJon]

This is what the Phelps live for, lawsuits. The whole family is full of lawyers who are ready to sue at any minute. They hope people get so angry at them that they do something stupid that they can sue for.

jon

[solvs]

Isn't that a contradiction? Why not deface every apple store you see and then proclaim you love apple and buy their products?

Besides the obvious, that I'm not even burning my own flag, let alone the flags of others (and last I checked, I didn't own an Apple Store) no, it isn't a contradiction. The contradiction comes from thinking the object is more important than what it represents. I like Apple products, but if they did something I disagreed with, I will speak up. Just as I would with the country, because I want it to remain a good country. It is my right and responsibility as a citizen to do so. To do anything less is unpatriotic, sitting idly by as the gov does something completely against what this country was founded on and is supposed to stand for only helps perpetrate that behavior. Evil thrives when good men do nothing, and so does incompetence. Not that burning the flag is a good way to show that IMO, but the freedoms it stands for are more important than the symbol itself. Under that flag, one is entitled to free speech and the right to protest, even if they're ironically protesting that same symbol. If someone is punished for that, it ignores everything the flag is supposed to stand for. It makes the symbol more important than what it's supposed to stand for. And that just betrays the meaning behind it more than burning it does.

Where do you get these analogies, that one wasn't even close? :confused: