Power Mac G5 Developer Note

[Sun Baked]

OK, we've been waiting for Apple to post the developer documents on the hardware page for awhile, they're here.

These should answer some of the nagging questions we had about the machine, and give a little better insight into the machines architecture.

---> New Documentation: Power Mac G5 Developer Note (Preliminary) (PDF) (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G5/PowerMacG5/PowerMacG5.pdf)

General Hint...

[Slaytanic]

Well.. this means that if i use a version of Linux for PPC not having the "Thermal Control" implemented, i'm gonna smell burnt CPU ?

Sounds awful to me..

[backspinner]

from page 26:
Note:The AGP bus is 1.5 V only and is not backward compatible. Older AGP cards will not work in the Power Mac G5 computer.

[apeiros]

Originally posted by Slaytanic
Well.. this means that if i use a version of Linux for PPC not having the "Thermal Control" implemented, i'm gonna smell burnt CPU ?

Sounds awful to me..

No, afaik the fans run at full power if there is no thermal control. So rather "Ooops... something is brawling..." - still awful but at least not that awful as a burnt CPU was.

[AtariMan]

hmmm......... ATA 100 bus to control the superdrive. More than fast enough to run a standard PATA hard disk to use as a boot disk, and then you could RAID the other 2 SATA disks. (I do video editing and composting so I actually need the sustained thtoughput that RAID provides.)

I wonder if you could put a normal 80pin ribbon cable on there (one with two connections) and somehow mount a PATA disk in the space where the PCI-X cards go. Then conect the hard disk up as a slave and the Superdrive as master.

I know people will say just use an external firewire disk to boot from as its easier and doesnt wreck the case or (possibly) void your warranty, and that is probably what I'd do, its just an idea.
You could also replace the superdrive with a hard disk and put the superdrive in an external enclosure.

[allpar]

Does this imply that a single processor machine can be upgraded to a dual?

[bikertwin]

Looks like they're still not acknowledging the DVD-RW capabilities of the SuperDrive. And shouldn't it have Pioneer's A06, which does +R/+RW, too?

So instead of many buyers getting a G5 with SuperDrive, many will opt to save $200 and get a ComboDrive, and use the $200 to buy a $300 A06 aftermarket.

And this benefits Apple how?

They're shooting themselves in the foot if they don't acknowledge all four: -R, -RW, +R, +RW.

For someone who "likes options" (Jobs' famous quote when asked about using AMD processors), he sure doesn't like to provide his customers with any.

[bosskxx1]

One thing I noticed is that the DDR RAM has to be installed in pairs in the G5. It usually won't cost you a lot more to get double of half the memory you wanted. (Ex. If you want 512 you have to get 2x 256) But it takes up two of your spots.

It was kind of unusual to see on Apple Website why they offered 2x 256mb instead of 1 512. At first I thought it was to save money.

[ClimbingTheLog]

Originally posted by bosskxx1
It was kind of unusual to see on Apple Website why they offered 2x 256mb instead of 1 512. At first I thought it was to save money.

Probably because it's a 64-bit architecture and most RAM is designed to be addressed by 32-bit systems.

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by AtariMan
I wonder if you could put a normal 80pin ribbon cable on there (one with two connections) and somehow mount a PATA disk in the space where the PCI-X cards go.

How about a 60GB laptop drive (2.5"). It would be easier to find room for a small drive. It'd be a bit slower than a 7200RPM drive, but would let you stripe the other two.

You'd need a cable/power adapter like, but they're easy to find:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/images/SKUimages/medium/C184-17705.jpg

link to catalog (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?sku=C184-17705)

[testnull]

There's big news here folks!

The largest DIMM supported is a two-bank DIMM of 2 GB using 512 Mbit DDR SDRAM devices. The maximum number of devices per DIMM is 16.

This means that the G5 actually supports up to 16GB of RAM (2GB/slot), but Apple must not be able to find 2GB modules (heck, I can't find 1GB modules - where do they get them?).

Of course, if Apple is hedging on this as usual, it may support even more.

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by ClimbingTheLog
Probably because it's a 64-bit architecture and most RAM is designed to be addressed by 32-bit systems.

Standard RAM is already 64-bits wide (when you see NNNN x 64 in the part number, the "64" is the bit wide - 72-bit wide is ECC memory).

Apple (as well as most high performance Intel boards) use pairs of 64-bit wide memory DIMMs in order to transfer 128-bits per effective memory clock cycle. This is then passed up to the CPU on a narrower, but faster, bus. (64-bits at 167MHz for G4, 64-bits @800 MHz for P4, 32-bits at 1000MHz for G5)

It's unrelated to whether or not the CPU is 64-bit. Server systems carry the concept further, using memory in multiples of 4, 8 or even 16 DIMMs.

[testnull]

Originally posted by ClimbingTheLog
Probably because it's a 64-bit architecture and most RAM is designed to be addressed by 32-bit systems.

Nope! Apple is essentially RAID-striping the memory to get the bandwidth out of it that they need.

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by testnull
This means that the G5 actually supports up to 16GB of RAM (2GB/slot) ...it may support even more.

According to the PDF link above:

Processor Bus

The processor bus is a 800 MHz, 900 MHz, or 1 GHz bus connecting the processor module to the U3 IC. The bus has 64-bit wide data and 36-bit wide addresses.

36-bit physical addresses implies that the chipset has an absolute max of 64 GiB. (The G5 supports 42-bits, so a different chipset could support even more.)

Apple probably decided that 64 GiB will last until they have to do a new chipset for the 980. :D

[nuckinfutz]

The G5 is a nice architecture. I'm impressed with Apples Design Chips thusfar. As long as the mobos are reliable they have a winner here.

As for Dual Channel Ram...it's the only way to maximize the memory throughput to hit 6.4BGbps. Without giving up your Arm and Leg for memory.

Hopefully the Vaper PPC 980 will have a buit in memory controller based on a scaled POWER5. This would allow the memory throughput to scale per Processor right? Opterons have that advantage now.

After seeing $700 Opteron boards(Gigabyte Dual) that over %80 of what these boards offer..I'm starting to think Apple has priced these machines quite fairly.

[amnesiac1984]

I was wondering about the single versus dual thing. The processors seem to take up a lot of space, so with only one, would there be a big gap? Would it look uglier inside? Maybe you could put a HD or something in the space.

[ClimbingTheLog]

Originally posted by testnull
Nope! Apple is essentially RAID-striping the memory to get the bandwidth out of it that they need.

Ah, memory interleaving. Every few years they decide to do it, then decide not to do it, then decide to do it...

[DharvaBinky]

Actually, I've always found it interesting that Apple has traditionally led the charge to dual bank designs. I've been selling and repairing both macs and PCs since the early 90s, and it always seems like Apple would go dual bank (for the massess) before PC companies.

Remember 30 pin SIMMS? Apple had those things paired up in 68040 machines pretty early on.

Then the industry switched to Single 72-pin SIMMS. When the first powerPCs came out, they required paired 72-pin SIMMS.

The DIMMS, now Paired DIMMS? <grin> I can't wait to see what's next...

128-bit QIMMS? that'll be interesting because I've heard QIMM used in a gross naughty joke kinda context before... ;)

They'll have to come up with something else, I bet... <grin>

Dharvabinky

[ryan]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
Hopefully the Vaper PPC 980 will have a buit in memory controller based on a scaled POWER5.
Slightly off-topic but thank you for calling the 980 what it is, vapor-ware!

[onnimikki]

I've been thinking of replacing the mini keyboard that came with my tray-loading iMac. Does anyone have an opinion on the new keyboards (the ones that I heard come with the eMacs) versus the Pro keyboard? (Personally, I thought about getting one of the Macally keyboards, but my wife is vetoing that since she wasn't able to test it in person)

[mainstreetmark]

*sigh*

This all reminds me of my first Mac, when I had to cut a resister on the mother board when I put more RAM in.

[ClimbingTheLog]

Originally posted by onnimikki
I've been thinking of replacing the mini keyboard that came with my tray-loading iMac. Does anyone have an opinion on the new keyboards (the ones that I heard come with the eMacs) versus the Pro keyboard? (Personally, I thought about getting one of the Macally keyboards, but my wife is vetoing that since she wasn't able to test it in person)

Get an Apple Extended Keyboard II at a yard sale and hook it up with a Griffin iMate - you won't be sorry.

[The Grimace]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
How about a 60GB laptop drive (2.5"). It would be easier to find room for a small drive. It'd be a bit slower than a 7200RPM drive, but would let you stripe the other two.


Hitachi has one at 7200rpm. (http://www.hgst.com/hdd/travel/tr7k60.htm)

(tig)

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by bikertwin
Looks like they're still not acknowledging the DVD-RW capabilities of the SuperDrive. And shouldn't it have Pioneer's A06, which does +R/+RW, too?

So instead of many buyers getting a G5 with SuperDrive, many will opt to save $200 and get a ComboDrive, and use the $200 to buy a $300 A06 aftermarket.

That's exactly what I'll be doing. If the A06 isn't included, I'm saving the money and getting either an A06 or a Sony DWU10A or a Sony DRU-500A. I want both plus and minus. And actually, I have seen the DWU10A for only $150 or so.

The only question is, does OSX support these drives? It should, since I believe the command set for these drives has been standardized. Also I understand some of the iMacs shipped with the DWU10A at one time or another, which would imply support. Anyone know for sure if the Sony drives work with OSX?

[OSeXy!]

I'm not sure the keyboad thing is a foregone conclusion. The G5 is the only mac with usb 2. Why use a keyboard that only acts as a usb 1 hub (as stated in the keyboard description in the tech note)? I think there will be a new pro keyboard which gives you the option of plugging the keyboard into one of the G5's usb 2 ports... Of course, against my own argument, perhaps this is why they are including a usb 1 port on the back... Plug your keyboard into it and you get an open usb 1 port close to hand (once you have plugged your usb mouse into the other one on the keyboard), as well as the usb 2 port on the front of the G5...

I guess I just want to believe that there will be a new pro keyboard/mouse.

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by AtariMan
I wonder if you could put a normal 80pin ribbon cable on there (one with two connections) and somehow mount a PATA disk in the space where the PCI-X cards go. Then conect the hard disk up as a slave and the Superdrive as master.

For this I wouldn't use a ribbon cable, I would use a round shielded ide cable. Visit your local PC hardware build-it-yourself store, they generally have bins full of these for cheap. The round cable will fit much better, and won't destory the cooling airflow in the process.

If you currently have a lot of internal HDs (like me, I have 6), you can accomodate these by finding a cheap PC ATX case. Anything will do, hell you can pull a 386 out of the dustbin and it will work. Strip out everything except the power supply, and install the drives in the case (powered by the ATX power supply). Then use 36" round IDE cables to connect to your Mac's IDE connector. You can get the round cables in through a spare PCI slot opening, if you remove the rubber connector-covers.

It can be kinda messy looking unless you have some space in back to shove the PC case. But it gives you a lot of expandability, without straining the Mac's power supply or ruining that awesome ventilation system.

[daveL]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Apple (as well as most high performance Intel boards) use pairs of 64-bit wide memory DIMMs in order to transfer 128-bits per effective memory clock cycle. This is then passed up to the CPU on a narrower, but faster, bus. (64-bits at 167MHz for G4, 64-bits @800 MHz for P4, 32-bits at 1000MHz for G5)

It's unrelated to whether or not the CPU is 64-bit. Server systems carry the concept further, using memory in multiples of 4, 8 or even 16 DIMMs.

Note, however, that the G4 and P4 transfer 64 bits per bus cycle *in one direction only*, i.e. a read OR a write. The G5 transfers 32 bits per bus cycle, but it can perform a 32 bit read AND a 32 bit write in the same cycle.

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by testnull
(heck, I can't find 1GB modules - where do they get them?).

http://www.pricewatch.com

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by onnimikki
(Personally, I thought about getting one of the Macally keyboards, but my wife is vetoing that since she wasn't able to test it in person)

That's too bad, cause they're the best. :) If you liked the old Apple Extended II's, you will like the MacAlly's. IMO.

[ilko]

I have a question that bothers me a lot! Can you upgrade the processor??? Can anyone shed light on that? Is the G5 soldered onto the motherboard, or not? Does anybody know?

Thanks!

[Haberdasher]

Originally posted by backspinner
from page 26: Note:The AGP bus is 1.5 V only and is not backward compatible. Older AGP cards will not work in the Power Mac G5 computer.

Ouch...but then again, if it comes built to order with at least and 8x AGP card, then chances are not many people are going to downgrade.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by OSeXy!
Of course, against my own argument, perhaps this is why they are including a usb 1 port on the back... Plug your keyboard into it and you get an open usb 1 port close to hand (once you have plugged your usb mouse into the other one on the keyboard), as well as the usb 2 port on the front of the G5...

I guess I just want to believe that there will be a new pro keyboard/mouse.


There are no USB 1.1 ports on the G5s. They are all 2.0 (which is compatible with 1.1, but they all can run at full speed).

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by soggywulf
If you currently have a lot of internal HDs (like me, I have 6), you can accomodate these by finding a cheap PC ATX case. Anything will do, hell you can pull a 386 out of the dustbin and it will work. Strip out everything except the power supply, and install the drives in the case (powered by the ATX power supply). Then use 36" round IDE cables to connect to your Mac's IDE connector. You can get the round cables in through a spare PCI slot opening, if you remove the rubber connector-covers.

It can be kinda messy looking unless you have some space in back to shove the PC case. But it gives you a lot of expandability, without straining the Mac's power supply or ruining that awesome ventilation system.

Giving the term "Frankenputer" whole new meaning ...

:) Really, though, a good idea. Having two power supplies connected through the MB worries me a little, though I can't put my finger on precisely why.

[noverflow]

from page 26: Note:The AGP bus is 1.5 V only and is not backward compatible. Older AGP cards will not work in the Power Mac G5 computer

This really sucks... i ordered mine 20min after the keynote. I was hoping that i could just put in my geforce 4 ti. But now that i cant i want to upgrade my video card. But the only way to make changes to the order is to cancel it and place it again. and that alone would push me to the back of the line when i am at the front of the cto line.

Any recommendations on what to do?

[davei]

Originally posted by jettredmont
Giving the term "Frankenputer" whole new meaning ...

:) Really, though, a good idea. Having two power supplies connected through the MB worries me a little, though I can't put my finger on precisely why.

Potential for ground loops.

[daedelgt]

Originally posted by noverflow
This really sucks... i ordered mine 20min after the keynote. I was hoping that i could just put in my geforce 4 ti. But now that i cant i want to upgrade my video card. But the only way to make changes to the order is to cancel it and place it again. and that alone would push me to the back of the line when i am at the front of the cto line.

Any recommendations on what to do?

Call and try to change your order. I did such with my 17" PB and the actual order date never changed even though I upgraded the ram a few weeks later.

[SpamJunkie]

Originally posted by noverflow
This really sucks... i ordered mine 20min after the keynote. I was hoping that i could just put in my geforce 4 ti.

AGP 1.5V is 4x or 8x. Your gf4ti should be 4x which should be compatible with the G5.

[daveL]

Originally posted by ilko
I have a question that bothers me a lot! Can you upgrade the processor??? Can anyone shed light on that? Is the G5 soldered onto the motherboard, or not? Does anybody know?

Thanks!
No, each processor is housed on its own module. It isn't clear to me that you can update the CPUs with faster ones later due to the U3 controller and bus clocks.

[daveL]

Originally posted by jettredmont
There are no USB 1.1 ports on the G5s. They are all 2.0 (which is compatible with 1.1, but they all can run at full speed).

Actually, the keyboard acts as a USB 1.1 powered hub; there are two USB ports available on the keyboard.

[illumin8]

Originally posted by apeiros
No, afaik the fans run at full power if there is no thermal control. So rather "Ooops... something is brawling..." - still awful but at least not that awful as a burnt CPU was.
I hate to gloat, but I called this perfectly in some of my earlier comments. When I saw the type of thermal control Apple was using in the G5, I knew they had to have taken a cue from the big Unix server makers, such as Sun.

On a Sun server you have a daemon that monitors the temperature of various components and tells the fans what speed they need to operate. If this daemon crashes or dies for some reason, the fans will spin up to their maximum level just to be safe.

Trust me, you probably do not want your G5 fans to be spinning at maximum level. I bet it's very loud at max.

[noverflow]

Originally posted by daedelgt
Call and try to change your order. I did such with my 17" PB and the actual order date never changed even though I upgraded the ram a few weeks later.

Thanks a ton. i did just that.
Had to talk to 2 people t do it though. The first guy would not even try and said it was not possible. The second guy just did it.

[negrito]

what kind of superdrive will have the g5? a05 or a06? in fact no product specification is available about the superdrive also the harddisk manufacturer isn't indicated.
does that mean they change the superdrive when a newer one is available or do they never change it (dito for the harddisk)?

update: someone tested the a06 and it works in panther but not in 10.2.5 (link (http://www.funmac.com/showthread.php?threadid=2027&perpage=15&pagenumber=16) )



http://images.forgottennewbies.com/panther/new/dvr106.jpg

[illumin8]

Originally posted by ClimbingTheLog
Probably because it's a 64-bit architecture and most RAM is designed to be addressed by 32-bit systems.
No, it's because they want to access memory at 800 mhz., and there are two 400 mhz. banks, therefore access to memory is done simultaneously to effectively double memory bandwidth.

[illumin8]

Originally posted by jettredmont
Giving the term "Frankenputer" whole new meaning ...

:) Really, though, a good idea. Having two power supplies connected through the MB worries me a little, though I can't put my finger on precisely why.
Don't be worried. Using any kind of external hard drive is just the same. Power is provided by an external power supply. Heck, any two Macs plugged into the same ethernet hub are connected from motherboard to motherboard!

[icrew]

Originally posted by illumin8
I hate to gloat, but I called this perfectly in some of my earlier comments. When I saw the type of thermal control Apple was using in the G5, I knew they had to have taken a cue from the big Unix server makers, such as Sun.

On a Sun server you have a daemon that monitors the temperature of various components and tells the fans what speed they need to operate. If this daemon crashes or dies for some reason, the fans will spin up to their maximum level just to be safe.

Trust me, you probably do not want your G5 fans to be spinning at maximum level. I bet it's very loud at max.

Well, that's better than a Dell laptop I've seen--on that laptop, if you don't have the proper drivers installed, the fan WON'T run, causing it to overheat and shut itself down. That took one of my colleagues quite a while to figure out....

[moss84]

Originally posted by negrito
what kind of superdrive will have the g5? a05 or a06?

After comparing the speeds Apple lists for the superdrive, I think it is the a06.

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by jettredmont
Really, though, a good idea. Having two power supplies connected through the MB worries me a little, though I can't put my finger on precisely why.

Nah, there's no problems. It's exactly equivalent to using an external hard disk. An external HD has its own power supply. Using the ATX case is just an extension of this.

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by moss84
After comparing the speeds Apple lists for the superdrive, I think it is the a06.

Woo. That would be good news. Next question--will it burn DVD+R/RW? It would seem that it should, since I wouldn't think the drive would pass that information (+ vs -) through to the OS. But I dunno for sure.

[Frobozz]

Originally posted by noverflow
This really sucks... i ordered mine 20min after the keynote. I was hoping that i could just put in my geforce 4 ti. But now that i cant i want to upgrade my video card. But the only way to make changes to the order is to cancel it and place it again. and that alone would push me to the back of the line when i am at the front of the cto line.

Any recommendations on what to do?

Well, an ATI 9600 is at least as fast as your Geforce4TI was going to be (IF you were able to put it in there.)

Why not just wait for the 9800 retail card to ship? ATI has unofficially said it will be available in a month. I don't know if they will stick to the timetable, but the lead Project Manager at ATI went on record as saying it IS coming and that it will be out in a month. I'm assuming in the timeframe of the MacWorld conference this month.

http://www.insidemacgames.com/features/view.php?ID=240&Page=2

On the above link they mention "imminent" release, and that it WILL work in any AGP equipped mac including the G5.

[Kermit]

There are two things I'd like to see shipped with the Power Mac G5. First I'd like a DVD(+-)RW-compatible Superdrive installed and supported in Mac OS X. Then I would like it to have a redesigned wireless set of Apple Pro Mouse and Apple Pro Keyboard.

[Rico]

Am I the only one who feels the code name is just a tad ominous? Omega usually signifies 'the end' or 'death'.

End of what? Death of what? The tower format? Ives last design for Apple? The end of the x86 wars? The PPC? Is a move to Opteron in the works, after all?

With the G5 code name of Neo ('The One'; 'The Messiah'; etc.), Omega seems at odds with that spirit.

Then again, I probably just read too many spy mysteries and role play far too much. (:

[Docrjm]

I just came off the telephone. Speaking to a guy in the Apple store(online). I asked if the G5 would be shipping with anew Keyboard and Mouse. He said it most likely would, but couldn't comment as it was aproduct that wasn't yet shipping.

[Wonder Boy]

Originally posted by allpar
Does this imply that a single processor machine can be upgraded to a dual?

If it does, I hope the price stays reasonably similar...

[beatle888]

have a good independence day everyone. just reading through....dont know much about the topic but cant wait to work with the new G5.

[leicaman]

Originally posted by Frobozz On the above link they mention "imminent" release, and that it WILL work in any AGP equipped mac including the G5. [/B]

It obviously works with the G5, mine is coming with the 9800 Pro.

[Plastic Chicken]

The Mac PowerBook 190 also had the name "Omega".

[fpnc]

Originally posted by allpar
Does this imply that a single processor machine can be upgraded to a dual?

... and...

Originally posted by Wonder Boy
If it does, I hope the price stays reasonably similar...

I suspect that the low-end, 1.6GHz single-processor machines can't be upgraded to dual processors. Based upon the diagrams and specs for the low-end machine it supports only 4GB SDRAM and it physically has only has four banks of SDRAM (the 1.8GHz and 2.0GHz machines have eight banks of SDRAM). It looks like the low-end machine uses a significantly different motherboard, thus dual-processor upgrades on that system seem unlikely. I wonder whether the low-end system might be a design that will eventually serve as the basis for a G5-based iMac.

[Phil Of Mac]

Wireless keyboards are kind of useless, I think. Wireless mice are useless unless they are easily rechargable, perhaps in a dock on the keyboard?

I don't like the codename Omega because my mom once owned an Oldsmobile Omega, and it was the worst car ever :)

[Flynnstone]

Originally posted by bosskxx1
One thing I noticed is that the DDR RAM has to be installed in pairs in the G5. It usually won't cost you a lot more to get double of half the memory you wanted. (Ex. If you want 512 you have to get 2x 256) But it takes up two of your spots.

It was kind of unusual to see on Apple Website why they offered 2x 256mb instead of 1 512. At first I thought it was to save money.

I believe its dual channel DDR-SDRAM. So you can get upto (theoretically) double the transfer rate. Good move.

[awulf]

The "Apple Keyboard" Is the worst thing I've seen. It is ugly and corners have been cut everywhere to make this keyboard cheap.

If I were to get a computer with that keyboard I would immediately replace it.

I like the current "Apple Pro Keyboard"

[Windowlicker]

Originally posted by Rico
Am I the only one who feels the code name is just a tad ominous? Omega usually signifies 'the end' or 'death'.

End of what? Death of what? The tower format? Ives last design for Apple? The end of the x86 wars? The PPC? Is a move to Opteron in the works, after all?

huh?! there are Omega watches and they've been there for years (I don't even know how long)! for most people (like me) omega is just a cool sounding word, nothing else.

[backspinner]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Wireless keyboards are kind of useless, I think. Wireless mice are useless... I would die to have a complete wireless desktop keyboard and mouse for my PowerBook setup at home...
...plugging in the double USB at the back behind the cover and the screen each time isn't fun and quite nagging.

I have already Airport and BlueTooth, so it would work very clean.


Oh, and Omega sounds very nice to me!

[thies]

and now we wait for someone to write a virus which takes out the fan control in the OS and fries your box. Or OSX to crash in a horrible way sending the CPUs into a deadlock while the fan control stalls which then bakes your G5s.

[fraggle]

If Apple's engineers are any good the fan control will not allow the OS to shut it down, if the CPUs get too hot it should ignore any request for "full speed" from OS X (or a virus) and let the system cool down.

Just because the OS controls the fans doesn't mean that there is no other entity that watches over the sanity of what the OS does.

[pbrennen]

Originally posted by Rico
Am I the only one who feels the code name is just a tad ominous? Omega usually signifies 'the end' or 'death'.

End of what? Death of what? The tower format? Ives last design for Apple? The end of the x86 wars? The PPC? Is a move to Opteron in the works, after all?

With the G5 code name of Neo ('The One'; 'The Messiah'; etc.), Omega seems at odds with that spirit.

Then again, I probably just read too many spy mysteries and role play far too much. (:

Don't forget that Jesus Christ was also supposedly both the alpha and the omega, that is, the beginning and the end.

(NOT RELIGIOUS)

[gothamac]

http://www.macbidouille.com/

- Even further in the future of IBM - Lionel - 16:49:27
Here not confirmed infos future of the PPC 9xx

IBM is working on the engraving of processors in 65nm with East Fishkill. The production with this smoothness of engraving will start in 2005. They will take lead on INTEL which wastes time with its engraving in oil immersion, although the problems of birefringence were solved. IBM gave up this technology, because there are problems with bules of air in the fluid.
Roadmap envisages PPC 980 with 90nm during in the third quarter of the next year. The maximum frequency that these chips will reach is not fixed yet with certainty, but they count on 4,5 GHz at the beginning of 2005, when the engraved successor with 65nm takes the changing.
At the end of 2005- beginning 2006, the PPC 990 engraved in 65nm will arrive. It should begin its career with 4,5 GHz and finish it to 9:) It will be derived from Power6.

Veiled what to take again confidence out of APPLE for years.

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by thies
and now we wait for someone to write a virus which takes out the fan control in the OS and fries your box. Or OSX to crash in a horrible way sending the CPUs into a deadlock while the fan control stalls which then bakes your G5s.

Yeah, good point. I'm not too thrilled about this software control stuff. I'm sure this could have been done in pure hardware. As in, non-infectable analog hardware.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Windowlicker
huh?! there are Omega watches and they've been there for years (I don't even know how long)! for most people (like me) omega is just a cool sounding word, nothing else.

Omega has a double meaning. Yes, it can mean the end or the finish but it can also mean the best or perfect. If something is at it's best it is the finish. Can you see the similarity. It all has to do with context the word is used in. Old languages often have numerous meanings for the same word when used in different context.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by thies
and now we wait for someone to write a virus which takes out the fan control in the OS and fries your box. Or OSX to crash in a horrible way sending the CPUs into a deadlock while the fan control stalls which then bakes your G5s.

You must be a PC person worrying about viruses and all? Last I heard the only virus on OSX was a text file that is sent by email that says, "Please delete all your important files and send this on. This is a voluntary virus that can only continue with your help.".

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Last I heard the only virus on OSX was a text file that is sent by email that says, "Please delete all your important files and send this on. This is a voluntary virus that can only continue with your help.".

We are not immune. Having no viruses ATM is no reason to expose yourself. Especially exposing yourself to possible physical damage.

[Phinius]

Apple has stated that the G5 will go to 3 GHz within a year. That means a bus that runs at 1.5 GHz, which translates into requiring dual channel 666 MHz DDR-II memory running at 1.33 GHz to keep pace with a 2-1 ratio of cpu to bus speed.

Looking at what I have seen for Intel's roadmap, I'd expect the Pentium processors to be using 533 MHz memory when Apple releases a 3 GHz G5 with 666 MHz memory.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Slaytanic
Well.. this means that if i use a version of Linux for PPC not having the "Thermal Control" implemented, i'm gonna smell burnt CPU ?

Sounds awful to me..

You could always get one of those box fans and put it in front of the G5, blowing air through. :D

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by allpar
Does this imply that a single processor machine can be upgraded to a dual?

No.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by DharvaBinky
The DIMMS, now Paired DIMMS? <grin> I can't wait to see what's next...

128-bit QIMMS? that'll be interesting because I've heard QIMM used in a gross naughty joke kinda context before... ;)


Maybe, but the industry will really need to bite the bullet in order to cram 128bits of data to a board. If you notice, they have not really shrunk the pins of the DIMMs much. At least, not more than necessary. They would rather grow the memory sticks themselves.

As it is, DDR2 doesn't have 128bits wide of data. So it would have to be some other animal. Hopefully, the JDEC folks have been thought about this already.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by OSeXy!
Of course, against my own argument, perhaps this is why they are including a usb 1 port on the back... Plug your keyboard into it and you get an open usb 1 port close to hand (once you have plugged your usb mouse into the other one on the keyboard), as well as the usb 2 port on the front of the G5...

I guess I just want to believe that there will be a new pro keyboard/mouse. [/B]

Better would be to plug in a Apple flat panel to the back, on the AGP card, and plug the keyboard and mouse to that. Then, you have all of your 3 ports; 2 rear and 1 front available for USB 2.

[Phil Of Mac]

I think I figured it out.

The codename for the G5 processor is Neo.

Neo, in The Matrix, represents Christ.

Christ is the Alpha and the Omega.

The Omega (Power Mac G5) would logically also have an Alpha, perhaps the PowerBook G5.

Maybe?

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by daveL
Note, however, that the G4 and P4 transfer 64 bits per bus cycle *in one direction only*, i.e. a read OR a write. The G5 transfers 32 bits per bus cycle, but it can perform a 32 bit read AND a 32 bit write in the same cycle.

You are forgetting that the bus speeds are not the same on the G4/P4 vs the G5. With a 64 bit one way transfer at 167MHz, a G5 could have done 6 32bit transfer one way, and 6 the other way.

If its a one data-in, one data-out contest, the G5 is ahead by 10!!!

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by jettredmont Giving the term "Frankenputer" whole new meaning ...


Macinstein.
Frankentosh

:D

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by SpamJunkie
AGP 1.5V is 4x or 8x. Your gf4ti should be 4x which should be compatible with the G5.

Its not going to fit, physically.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
The codename for the G5 processor is Neo.

Thats not the codename... thats the marketing name... much like Altivec is the marketing name for the Velocity Engine, which is the marketing name for VMX.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Thats not the codename... thats the marketing name... much like Altivec is the marketing name for the Velocity Engine, which is the marketing name for VMX.

Apple's marketing name for it is G5. IBM's name for it is 970. The Apple codename for it is Neo.

With Altivec, Motorola's name for it is Altivec (formerly VMX) while Apple's marketing name for it is Velocity Engine.

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by ryan
Slightly off-topic but thank you for calling the 980 what it is, vapor-ware!

No, vaporware is when it's announced and not released. This is just a rumor. Neither announced nor released.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Phinius
Apple has stated that the G5 will go to 3 GHz within a year. That means a bus that runs at 1.5 GHz, which translates into requiring dual channel 666 MHz DDR-II memory running at 1.33 GHz to keep pace with a 2-1 ratio of cpu to bus speed.

Looking at what I have seen for Intel's roadmap, I'd expect the Pentium processors to be using 533 MHz memory when Apple releases a 3 GHz G5 with 666 MHz memory.

The current G5 Dual/2GHz doesn't run a 2-1 ram to system bus ratio. The system bus is 1GHz and the RAM is DDR400 which equals 800MHz.

[Macurious]

Originally posted by MacBandit
The current G5 Dual/2GHz doesn't run a 2-1 ram to system bus ratio. The system bus is 1GHz and the RAM is DDR400 which equals 800MHz.

If the bus is at 1 Ghz then would it not make sense to install PC4000 DDR RAM that runs at 500 MHz on the dual 2 GHz model for optimal performance? It should be available when the G5 ships.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by MacBandit
The current G5 Dual/2GHz doesn't run a 2-1 ram to system bus ratio. The system bus is 1GHz and the RAM is DDR400 which equals 800MHz.

I thought DDR400 equaled 400 MHz, ie 200 MHz dual-pumped.

[Macurious]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I thought DDR400 equaled 400 MHz, ie 200 MHz dual-pumped.

Does this mean the system performance of the Dual 2 GHz G5 can be improved by installing memory with speeds up to 1 Ghz? Imagine this system 2 years down the line:
Dual 3 GHz G5 (980 processors)
16 GB PC15000 DDR (1.5 GHz)
2 x 500 GB Serial ATA Hard Drives
Apple Cinema HD Display

All for around $5K :)

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I thought DDR400 equaled 400 MHz, ie 200 MHz dual-pumped.

That's correct the native speed of DDR400 ram is 200MHz but it reads on the rise and fall of the clock cycle in affect doubling the data throughput to the equivalent of 400MHz. On the upper two PowerMacs the DDR400 RAM is in two banks and but each slot is paired with another one on the other bank and those pairs are read asa one. This pairing is called use to be called interleaving but is now called Dual Channel. I'm not sure there is a difference between the old name and the new name in actual function as the both give you an equivalent of double the speed of the ram. Thus DDR400 in a Dual Channel setup gives you a supposed throughput equivalency of 800MHz.

[stingerman]

Originally posted by Macurious
If the bus is at 1 Ghz then would it not make sense to install PC4000 DDR RAM that runs at 500 MHz on the dual 2 GHz model for optimal performance? It should be available when the G5 ships.

RAM does not need to equal the FSB. In fact it is better for the FSB to always outpace RAM since the processors also communicate over their FSB's with each other and with other devices. That way the FSB can handle the Aggregate of the fast RAM and the other devices also competing for the processor's time. The G5 brings us into a new architectural world, were all the old limits have been shattered. The G5's architecture is perfectly balanced with the entire system and not just the RAM. What a far cry from the G4 and really almost all Wintel architectures.

I know it is hard, but we have to erase from our minds the old way of measuring the peformance of the system. The G5 is a radically new design and the industry hasn't fully digested it yet. It's OK that the fastest RAM out there is still slower than the FSB. Who would have ever thought that that would have been a problem, what a nice problem to have :) !

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by MacBandit
That's correct the native speed of DDR400 ram is 200MHz but it reads on the rise and fall of the clock cycle in affect doubling the data throughput to the equivalent of 400MHz. On the upper two PowerMacs the DDR400 RAM is in two banks and but each slot is paired with another one on the other bank and those pairs are read asa one. This pairing is called use to be called interleaving but is now called Dual Channel. I'm not sure there is a difference between the old name and the new name in actual function as the both give you an equivalent of double the speed of the ram. Thus DDR400 in a Dual Channel setup gives you a supposed throughput equivalency of 800MHz.

Excellent! Thanks for the clarification!

[Frohickey]

I don't see where in the Tech Overview .pdf that mentions 'omega'.

Guess again on the code name.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Frohickey
I don't see where in the Tech Overview .pdf that mentions 'omega'.

Guess again on the code name.

The code name is not germane to a technical overview. The information that the code name is "Omega" comes from a different source.

[visor]

Originally posted by MacBandit
You must be a PC person worrying about viruses and all? Last I heard the only virus on OSX was a text file that is sent by email that says, "Please delete all your important files and send this on. This is a voluntary virus that can only continue with your help.".

I wish I could share your confidence on invulnerable Software. if you subscribe to any Open source Security newsletter, you will soon find out that your security feeling is based on nothing but thin air.
I had a worm on my system already. It creaped in via - mind the irony - the SSL socket of apache.
The debian newsletter had 5 security anouncements only this week.

[ffakr]

Originally posted by Macurious
If the bus is at 1 Ghz then would it not make sense to install PC4000 DDR RAM that runs at 500 MHz on the dual 2 GHz model for optimal performance? It should be available when the G5 ships.
Kingston just announced PC4000 today. It wasn't available a couple weeks ago (Kingston claims they are the first to market)
PC4000 costs about twice what PC 3200 costs and it's currently only been announced in modules up to 512MB ...

No, it wouldn't have been good to ship the dual G5 with PC4000. Maybe next year.

[ffakr]

Originally posted by Frohickey
Its not going to fit, physically.

No, it will fit. The main difference between AGP 4x and AGP 8x is the fact the AGP 4x supports 3 volt and 1.5 volt cards while AGP 8X only supports 1.5 volt cards.
For this reason, AGP 4x slots can support older 2x (3 volt) cards, while AGP 8x slots only support 8x and 1.5 volt 4x cards.

The only physical differences in AGP cards are the Pro variety which draw more power from the motherboard. Pro slots can accept Pro cards or regular cards.

AFAIK, the G5 ships with AGP 8X pro allowing it to support 4x 1.5 volt, 4x Pro 1.5 volt, 8x, and 8x Pro cards.

[ffakr]

Originally posted by Rico
With the G5 code name of Neo ('The One'; 'The Messiah'; etc.

Um, little too much Matrix... too little culture.

from Webster.com:
One entry found for ne-.

Main Entry: ne-
Variant(s): or neo-
Function: combining form
Etymology: Greek, from neos new -- more at NEW
1 a : new : recent <Neogene> b : new and different period or form of <Neoplatonism> : in a new and different form or manner <Neoplatonic> c : New World <Neotropical> d : new and abnormal <neoplasm>

[ffakr]

Originally posted by Phinius
Apple has stated that the G5 will go to 3 GHz within a year. That means a bus that runs at 1.5 GHz, which translates into requiring dual channel 666 MHz DDR-II memory running at 1.33 GHz to keep pace with a 2-1 ratio of cpu to bus speed.

No one every said the CPU to Bus ratio MUST be 2:1. It's only 2:1 now because they can do it.
I'm pretty sure the 970 supports .5 increments for bus multipliers.
A 2.5:1 or 3:1 multiplier would allow a 2.5GHz and 3GHz part on a 1GHz bus.

Given the current Apple's bus spread [800, 900, 1GHz]... We could see chips at:
2.25GHz, 2.4GHz, 2.5GHz, 2.8GHz, 3GHz

If Apple could push out a 1.1 GHz (or maybe 1.2 GHz) bus down the line, the options increase even more.
The only down side would be that you may have a faster clocked machine with a slightly slower bus.

[Phil Of Mac]

I know exactly what "neo" means. I'm just saying that it's more likely that Apple engineers, being as in tune with pop culture (or at least popular sci-fi) as they are, would code name a processor after Neo, from The Matrix.

If you don't believe me, consider that past code names at Apple had similar references (the Mac Plus was Mr. T, the PowerBook Duo was BOB W after the Star Trek: TNG episode "Best of Both Worlds", etc.)

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by visor
I wish I could share your confidence on invulnerable Software. if you subscribe to any Open source Security newsletter, you will soon find out that your security feeling is based on nothing but thin air.
I had a worm on my system already. It creaped in via - mind the irony - the SSL socket of apache.
The debian newsletter had 5 security anouncements only this week.

Sorry I didn't reply to the earlier response. Sarcasm is sometimes difficult to convey in written communication.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by ffakr
No, it will fit. The main difference between AGP 4x and AGP 8x is the fact the AGP 4x supports 3 volt and 1.5 volt cards while AGP 8X only supports 1.5 volt cards.
For this reason, AGP 4x slots can support older 2x (3 volt) cards, while AGP 8x slots only support 8x and 1.5 volt 4x cards.

The only physical differences in AGP cards are the Pro variety which draw more power from the motherboard. Pro slots can accept Pro cards or regular cards.

AFAIK, the G5 ships with AGP 8X pro allowing it to support 4x 1.5 volt, 4x Pro 1.5 volt, 8x, and 8x Pro cards.

I tell you that it will NOT fit, but it has nothing to do with whether is 1.5v, 3.3v or AGP 4x or AGP 8x.

The AGP in the G5s are AGP 3.0, with an AGP Pro connector.

Sure enough, AGP 4x runs at 1.5v only, and could either follow the AGP 2.0 or AGP 3.0, which is a subset of AGP 2.0.

AGP 8x runs at 1.5v only, and only follows AGP 3.0.

Since a picture is worth a few hundred words (damn inflation ;), check this out...
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/geforce4_ti/Geforce4_ti_mac_card.jpg (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/geforce4_ti/geforce4_titanium_Mac.html)

Do you see that small little piece of board with copper at the back behind the AGP contacts? Its above the letters Fo of GeForce4. That little piece of board with copper contacts is going to hit the plastic on the AGP Pro connector.

BTW, your comment about AGP 4x running at 3.3v and 1.5v is wrong. AGP 2.0 supports 3.3v and 1.5v, but 3.3v is only for 1x and 2x, 4x HAS TO BE 1.5v.

Check it out for yourself.
AGP 2.0 Spec (ftp://download.intel.com/technology/agp/downloads/agp20.pdf), page 166.
AGP 2.0 Spec (http://www.intel.com/technology/agp/downloads/agp30_final_10.pdf), page 39.

The G5 is either a AGP3.0 Motherboard or a Universal 1.5V AGP3.0 Motherboard (Universal 1.5V AGP3.0). These two are the only choices for 1.5v (and no 3.3v) and goes up to 8x.

Why can't Intel come up with a handy cheatsheet as to what the various flavors of AGP are.... lets see... 3.3v PCI mode, 3.3v AGP 1.0 1x, 3.3v AGP 1.0 2x, 3.3v AGP 2.0 1x, 3.3v AGP 2.0 2x, 1.5v AGP 2.0 1x, 1.5v AGP 2.0 2x, 1.5v AGP 2.0 4x, 1.5v AGP 3.0 4x, 1.5v AGP 3.0 8x. There maybe more that I forgot about.

[jaedreth]

Originally posted by stingerman
RAM does not need to equal the FSB. In fact it is better for the FSB to always outpace RAM since the processors also communicate over their FSB's with each other and with other devices. That way the FSB can handle the Aggregate of the fast RAM and the other devices also competing for the processor's time. The G5 brings us into a new architectural world, were all the old limits have been shattered. The G5's architecture is perfectly balanced with the entire system and not just the RAM. What a far cry from the G4 and really almost all Wintel architectures.

I know it is hard, but we have to erase from our minds the old way of measuring the peformance of the system. The G5 is a radically new design and the industry hasn't fully digested it yet. It's OK that the fastest RAM out there is still slower than the FSB. Who would have ever thought that that would have been a problem, what a nice problem to have :) !


Thank you so much for shedding the light. (Saved me the trouble.) The entire archtecture of the computer, it's case design, cooling, dual controllers designed by apple but built in the same high tech IBM facilities as the G5 itself; there is nothing that can compete with this feat of engineering. At this point, it doesn't even *matter* if the PCs have machines that with their archaic archetectures that are faster... They can't compete with this, and this archetecture is still in its infancy. See the writing on the wall?

Macs will start competing with SGI's and unix workstations, leaving the *consumer* macs to compete with the PCs, if Apple plays this trend to its potential. It's only a matter of time.

And to compete with the Unix Servers, there will be XServe. Apple is finally *starting* to get serious about Professional and Enterprise markets, instead of just Consumer and Education. Let's hope this keeps up and has great follow through.

[ffakr]

Originally posted by Frohickey

Do you see that small little piece of board with copper at the back behind the AGP contacts? Its above the letters Fo of GeForce4. That little piece of board with copper contacts is going to hit the plastic on the AGP Pro connector.


That 'little piece of board with copper' is the 28 volt power stub required for ADC video connectors. That's required to power the monitor.

That tab is not part of the AGP standard, it's an Apple addition [hack].

It is, however, in the location of the other pins used for the 'Pro' extension to AGP [as shown here]http://images10.newegg.com/productimage/14-102-277-04.JPG

The card you showed isn't available for the G5 though. It is an AGP 4x card with the Apple ADC power stub.
If the new systems support AGP 8x PRO and ADC as the G5 spec site (http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html) indicates, they must have moved the ADC power stub.

Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to look inside a G5 well. I should have asked to have it opened. :-(

[ffakr]

Originally posted by jaedreth
Macs will start competing with SGI's and unix workstations, leaving the *consumer* macs to compete with the PCs, if Apple plays this trend to its potential. It's only a matter of time.

As far as performance is concerned, Macs and PCs have been stomping on Unix workstations for a while.. at least in raw CPU power. The only advantage that workstations had were 64bit integer resolution and larger memory addresses.
:-)

SGI hasn't come up with a truely revised MIPS based machine in ages...they just wait till the fabrication process shrinks and they rename the new processor, making it look like they actually got an updated architecture.
Sun's UltraSPARC is actually quite a bit less powerful than Fujitsu's SPARC64 clone processor and that isn't really impressive either by todays standards.
Personally, if I didn't need huge memory or 64bit integer math, I'd pick a P4, Athlon, or even a dual G4 over any single processor Unix workstation. Even the previous bandwidth advantages of workstations have pretty much disappeared (unless you are using a many cpus).

Now, if I needed 8 processors, max uptime, and tons of bandwidth... I wouldn't buy a PC... but that's another story.

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by ffakr
That tab is not part of the AGP standard, it's an Apple addition [hack].

It is, however, in the location of the other pins used for the 'Pro' extension to AGP [as shown here]http://images10.newegg.com/productimage/14-102-277-04.JPG

The card you showed isn't available for the G5 though. It is an AGP 4x card with the Apple ADC power stub.

The original question was about the gf4ti card, and the one shipped in Macs is identical to the picture. The tab is in the way of the plastic. Wanna bet $5? :D