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aidanpendragon
Jun 12, 2007, 01:18 PM
After many years, the point where I could use a true video iPod (long commute) is moving from abstract to actuality.

Going by just the Buyer's Guide here - and by the initial iPhone peek from Jan. - I'd love to wait until an iPhone-form-factor, widescreen video iPod comes out "soon." And in that case, I know the standard advice from these forums: "if you can wait, wait, if not buy it now."

But in the last day or so, I've started wondering if Apple will ever release an iPhone-style video iPod.

1. All of the marketing materials/copy are referring to the iPhone in part as "the best iPod we've ever made." It's not an iPhone with video; it's AN iPOD. Why then would the iPod need to be updated with widescreen video? It "already" will have that video on June 29! So would go the Apple logic.

2. Apple is generally loath to encroach on its high-end products with mid-range ones. Thus no headless prosumer iMac. You get 24" or you get a Mini.

3. In this specific case, a video iPod anytime in the next 6 months might poach iPhone sales. "I already have a phone, and this cheaper model does almost everything else!"

4. Practically, a music player with only visual controls (not physical buttons) would be very hard to use in your pocket, on your belt, on an armband, etc.

So...hmm, I don't know...any thoughts? It's not just "buy now or wait"; it's "buy now or wait for something that may well never exist." The likelihood of that last part - will it ever exist? - is what I'd like comment on.

On the plus side, there are at least two things working in favor of a video iPod:

1. 8 whole gigs of memory for watching videos (for only $599!) is a 10-fold step back from what's already sold.

2. What the hell else will they do with the product line to justify new revisions & new sales? 80gb of flash memory? Thumbnail-sized? Do people want an iPod that can be fitted nasally?



ebouwman
Jun 12, 2007, 01:25 PM
What i think is that they'll probably wait a while for the iPhone to be established and then release it, how well the iPhone does will probably determine when they release somthing like that.

Also they won't make a new vid iPod that looks exactly like the iPhone because they'll want there to be a clear distinction

66217
Jun 12, 2007, 01:55 PM
I think they'll wait for the iPhone to reach the 2 generation and then come out with a wide-screen iPod.

It would be hard for them to make an iPod that does not compete directly with the iPhone. As I see it, the iPhone is going to be the premium product. So maybe the new iPod would only have widescreen and able to play movies and all. But you won't be able to have 3rd party apps, no internet, etc.


I really don't like much the idea of the iPhone. I prefer to have a small phone, I mean, if I go to the movies I don't want to carry a giant phone in my pocket. That's why I think that the idea of three-in-one device (phone, camera, and mp3 player) is still very far from being a viable option. The two limitations are size and battery performance. Maybe nanotechnology would help us with this in the future.:)

speakerwizard
Jun 12, 2007, 02:00 PM
bit of a catch22 situation for apple, eat into iphone sales or fall behind other daps, they have to keep the ipod competitive at least, lot of dissapointments over the 5.5, they have to upgrade this time around (sept/oct) so in europe we will see ipods and iphone around the same time, and with leopard, gonna be busy

zap2
Jun 12, 2007, 02:08 PM
No....the iPod will most likely get the iPod part of the iPhone, but not Wi-Fi or EDGE.


Maybe Wi-Fi one day, but even that might be kept away from the iPod for fear of eating iPod sales.

Osarkon
Jun 12, 2007, 02:50 PM
No....the iPod will most likely get the iPod part of the iPhone, but not Wi-Fi or EDGE.


Maybe Wi-Fi one day, but even that might be kept away from the iPod for fear of eating iPhone sales.

I agree, but by now I don't particularly care what they do, as long as some sort of new iPod comes out. They haven't had a proper update in ages!

Yvan256
Jun 12, 2007, 02:54 PM
First of all I'm hoping Apple knows and understands that a lot of people are bound by contracts and cannot switch carriers without facing contract-breaking penalties fees.

Second, I'm also hoping Apple realize that some people might not like AT&T/Rogers, or won't have access to them where they live. I, for one, am moving back to my hometown in about a month, and Rogers doesn't offer any service there. Yes it's a very small town, but all the other carriers work there except Rogers.

So, given these two facts, Apple needs to release the 6th generation iPod very soon, i.e. the iPhone without the phone part. Yes, keep Wi-Fi and all the internet apps in there, you have no choice. You've shown us it can and has been done. All the R&D has been done too, all the parts are already bought and the design is done and tested. Just remove the phone circuitry and software, make a different outer casing (different color without the mic hole, etc) and they're ready to launch the 6th generation iPod.

I'm guessing a lot of people won't be buying the 5th gen. iPod after seeing what the iPhone can do, and some people can't buy the iPhone at all. What are they supposed to upgrade to?

This seems to be headed to the same mistake as dropping the Mac mini without offering an upgrade path. A lot of people don't want to buy an all-in-one like the iMac and can't afford or even need a Mac Pro, just like some people would rather have their phone and iPod as two devices and/or can't afford/use the iPhone.

66217
Jun 12, 2007, 03:00 PM
So, given these two facts, Apple needs to release the 6th generation iPod very soon, i.e. the iPhone without the phone part. Yes, keep Wi-Fi and all the internet apps in there, you have no choice. You've shown us it can and has been done. All the R&D has been done too, all the parts are already bought and the design is done and tested. Just remove the phone circuitry and software, make a different outer casing (different color without the mic hole, etc) and they're ready to launch the 6th generation iPod.


But then many people won't buy the iPhone.

Apple has to decide which is going to be the premium product, which I think will be the iPhone.

The iPods is just a music player with video and photos. You don't need internet nor anything that complicated. I would agree it must have widescreen and maybe multi-touch, but no Wi-Fi or Safari. They need to keep it simple, that's what makes the iPod so great.

Alphy
Jun 12, 2007, 04:24 PM
After learning about there being no SDK as well as no Flash on the iPhone, I feel that for quite a few people, this was a huge deal-breaker and will translate in lower sales.

For some time, I was rather confident that we wouldn't see a true video iPod in '07, but if iPhone sales are sluggish, then I can see the new iPod being introduced later this year.

I'm giving a 75/25 in favor of us getting a new iPod this year.

Alphy
Jun 12, 2007, 04:25 PM
But then many people won't buy the iPhone.

Apple has to decide which is going to be the premium product, which I think will be the iPhone.

The iPods is just a music player with video and photos. You don't need internet nor anything that complicated. I would agree it must have widescreen and maybe multi-touch, but no Wi-Fi or Safari. They need to keep it simple, that's what makes the iPod so great.

People would absolutely kill for an iPod w/iPhone features ;) (Internet via Wifi)

I'm hoping that iPhone sales are crap for that single reason; it would force Apples hand into releasing the iPod that so many people are waiting for.

kuebby
Jun 12, 2007, 04:45 PM
I agree that Apple pretty much has to release a 6G iPod seperate from the iPhone line, they really have no choice. The iPhone is not a mass market product, they have proven that the iPod is. Millions of iPod owners would never consider buying an iPhone but would put a touch-screen iPod on their Christmas list in a second.

66217
Jun 12, 2007, 05:20 PM
How much does producing an iPhone should cost?

Or, how much would producing an iPhone like iPod cost?

Yvan256
Jun 12, 2007, 07:33 PM
But then many people won't buy the iPhone.

Apple has to decide which is going to be the premium product, which I think will be the iPhone.

So what if people don't buy the iPhone? It's not like they get money from the phone part, after all. All they have to do is offer a phone-less iPhone with 100GB of capacity and still sell it at the same price with the same profit margin. And I'm pretty sure Apple would rather get our cash for a 6th gen. iPod than zero since a lot of us won't buy an iPhone. By your logic they should kill the Mac mini because I should be looking at a Mac Pro instead. And even if Steve called me and offered me an iPhone for free, I wouldn't use the phone part.


The iPods is just a music player with video and photos. You don't need internet nor anything that complicated. I would agree it must have widescreen and maybe multi-touch, but no Wi-Fi or Safari. They need to keep it simple, that's what makes the iPod so great.

At the beginning the iPod only played music. Then, displayed photos. Then, played movies in 4:3. This is only the natural progression. And if the iPhone is not complicated with all these features and more, then an iPod with all the iPhone features minus the phone parts will be less complicated.

Also, putting a real web browser and email on the iPod has the added bonus that it would help push the competition back to playing catch-up with the iPod. All the R&D is done, all the parts suppliers are in place, etc. It's a no-brainer, they have to do it. If they strip Wi-Fi and all, then 5th gen. iPod owners won't have any real reason to upgrade their iPod.

iPhone: US$599
6th gen. iPod, 100GB: US$599
6th gen. iPod, 60GB: US$499
6th gen. iPod, 40GB: US$399

I don't see how this would lower iPhone sales. As I said in my previous post, not everyone can have an iPhone because of carriers problems.

Genghis Khan
Jun 12, 2007, 08:33 PM
just a question...could you have the iPhone technology with a disk instead of flash memory?

because if so, the solution is simple...iPhone without the phone or internet (leaving music, video, photos and maybe camera) but with a 30Gb disk

DopestGingah
Jun 13, 2007, 01:03 AM
Yes they have to release a true video iPod. Sure the iPhone has the iPod function it and it might be the future eventually, but we are not there yet. Not everybody has AT&T and those people want a touchscreen iPod within the next 5 years. And space is an issue. 8gb is pathetic.

Shaduu
Jun 13, 2007, 06:32 AM
just a question...could you have the iPhone technology with a disk instead of flash memory?

because if so, the solution is simple...iPhone without the phone or internet (leaving music, video, photos and maybe camera) but with a 30Gb disk

Yes, it's possible but very unlikely to see the light of day via Apple.

In my view, the iPhone would never kill a video iPod. The iPod is a music player (first and foremost) and the iPhone is a phone. These are two different markets and the customers for each are, or course, different.

Furthermore, there's the capacity issue. 8GB is a paltry amount of storage for widescreen video. Ideally you'd be looking be looking for at least 60GB which is something the iPod can, and most probably will, offer.

I'm also willing to bet we'll see a revamped iPod design in time for the holiday season. Maybe not with multi touch, but a significant enough change to satisfy desperate parents begging for an easy Christmas present.

rosalindavenue
Jun 13, 2007, 08:59 AM
I've been thinking about this issue for quite a while. I can't get an iphone-- I'm 5 months into a 2 year verizon contract with a treo 700p (kind of a caveman's iphone :rolleyes: that I need for work-- all of our software is tied to palm OS). I have been looking for a reason to upgrade my three year old 3G ipod for a while. I don't care about video at all, but I'd take it if I had to. I need 40 gigs at least, so even a disconnected iphone is not attractive to me. I don't get the impression that Apple is in a hurry to take care of this need because they want to force iphones on everyone. So I just ordered a new battery for my 3G ipod-- maybe it'll last another three years.

Lara F
Jun 13, 2007, 09:01 AM
I'm guessing a lot of people won't be buying the 5th gen. iPod after seeing what the iPhone can do, and some people can't buy the iPhone at all. What are they supposed to upgrade to?


That's me. I'd love to upgrade from my old 10Gb 3G iPod, but I refuse to get a 5.5G version after seeing how awesome the iPhone is. The iPhone itself though isn't an option as I'm under contract with Verizon till next year, and don't want to switch anyway (the no extra long distance fees to Canada is a huge deal for me). And for $600 I'd want more than the paltry 8Gb space.

So - new release (preferably with Wifi) :) or Apple gets no money from me. If my 3G ever dies I'll get a Nano somehow to tide me over, but it's still ticking away fortunately.

atszyman
Jun 13, 2007, 09:33 AM
All the R&D is done, all the parts suppliers are in place, etc. It's a no-brainer, they have to do it. If they strip Wi-Fi and all, then 5th gen. iPod owners won't have any real reason to upgrade their iPod.


That's no reason to include Wifi. By that logic MacBooks should all have the same features as the Pros because all the R&D and parts suppliers are in place. But they don't have backlit keyboards, FW800, or dedicated graphics, partly due to price points, mostly due to keeping the lines distinct.

I see the iPod remaining a media player only for the near future. Basically and iPhone without the phone or WiFi. Keep the Bluetooth for wirelessly syncing (something that would be nice for those of us who like to run the battery down between charging, but would like to get the latest tunes/shows/podcasts to our iPods without initiating a re-charge).

The differentiation would be capacity and connectivity. I don't need an iPod to connect to the web since it's purpose is not communication, it's an entertainment device. The iPod is meant to be a passive entertainment device, kick off a movie/show or some tunes and go about your business. No need for web type stuff. The iPhone is about communication, with low capacity storage for some passive entertainment.

I see the high capacity iPods with no WiFi hanging out at their current price points (with a storage upgrade). Basically a $200 price difference for the added internet/phone capabilities.

gkarris
Jun 13, 2007, 10:21 AM
I'm hearing that Apple wants to go with all flash-based iPods. Hence the long wait until the prices for memory goes down...

nplima
Jun 13, 2007, 10:46 AM
erm... from the apple website:

«iPhone is a widescreen iPod with touch controls that lets you enjoy your content — including music, audiobooks, videos, TV shows, and movies — on a beautiful 3.5-inch widescreen display. It also lets you sync your content from the iTunes library on your PC or Mac.»

I believe iPhone will be a relevant contender on the Smartphone market and that there is room for a widescreen iPod video, at least because there are workplaces where cameras cannot be used or carried. So far, I've only seen Nokia producing high-end phone models with the camera as an extra (see the smartphone E61 for an example).
Since I'm one of many people complaining about feature-bloat on mobile phones, I'd be happy to see Apple acting as the manufacturer that "gets it" and produces good specialized devices instead of all-in-one geeky stuff.

aidanpendragon
Jun 13, 2007, 10:55 AM
erm... from the apple website:

«iPhone is a widescreen iPod with touch controls that lets you enjoy your content — including music, audiobooks, videos, TV shows, and movies — on a beautiful 3.5-inch widescreen display. It also lets you sync your content from the iTunes library on your PC or Mac.»



erm...exactly my point. If Apple thinks/claims the iPhone "is" the video iPod, will they ever release an "actual" video iPod?

I agree with atszyman and some others - Wifi, web, etc. are all non-starters on the iPod, probably forever. That's iPhone market-segmentation there! Still, I'm not heartened about the chances to see a just-video iPod anytime soon. Although, you'd think they'd need a line refresh by maybe Aug/Sept, for the back-to-school/off-to-college crowd?

savar
Jun 13, 2007, 11:12 AM
After many years, the point where I could use a true video iPod (long commute) is moving from abstract to actuality.

Going by just the Buyer's Guide here - and by the initial iPhone peek from Jan. - I'd love to wait until an iPhone-form-factor, widescreen video iPod comes out "soon." And in that case, I know the standard advice from these forums: "if you can wait, wait, if not buy it now."


This is the best breakdown I've seen yet. Nicely done.

One point I'd like to add to the top part, related to #2.

Cost. If they remove the cell phone transmitter and the wifi card, but put in a 80GB hard drive, how much does the cost change? The top ipod has been $350 for some time now, and the iphone is $600. Where would an ipod only device fit into that spectrum?

aidanpendragon
Jun 13, 2007, 11:54 AM
This is the best breakdown I've seen yet. Nicely done.

One point I'd like to add to the top part, related to #2.

Cost. If they remove the cell phone transmitter and the wifi card, but put in a 80GB hard drive, how much does the cost change? The top ipod has been $350 for some time now, and the iphone is $600. Where would an ipod only device fit into that spectrum?

Thanks.

On cost: assuming no cell transmitter/wifi as you (rightly) do, what new components WOULD an iPhone-form-factor video iPod have?

-Widescreen that takes up the whole front of the unit.
-Multitouch. Given the widescreen, how else will you implement controls? I suppose you could put it at the crown/chin of the unit, but that would clutter up the design aesthetic in a very un-Apple way.
-Processor? You won't be running OS X, Safari, apps, keyboard input, or voice. One would think you could get away with cheaper chips; but who knows what Multitouch requires?

Personally, I'd figured they'd either keep the $350 price point or go no higher than $400. It's a market-tested and -proven price; any more and you'd be too close to the iPhone with fewer features; and Apple has a history (5G iPod) of putting in more while charging about the same. The components list seems to bear that out, although it's unclear how much the phone guts (which you'd ditch) cost vs. the display (which you'd keep).

gr8ful
Jun 13, 2007, 01:40 PM
I don't think Apple is that worried about a true video widescreen iPod robbing sales from the iPhone. I believe the iPhone is designed to cater to the one device crowd who refuses to carry two devices. If I'm Apple, I want "everyone" to have one of my devices, either an iPhone or an iPod. I don't think they expect people to carry both, which means they have to continue to innovate the platform that brought them back to life (the iPod).

The iPod has been slowly moving toward becoming a personal media player (PMP). This is the direction the industry is headed in and the iPod, not the iPhone, is Apple's bread-and-butter product. The audio side of the iPod is top-notch but the video side is lagging behind. I think this is why we will see a true widescreen video iPod this year in both a 40GB & 100GB option.

If Apple really wants to score a home run, they’d offer a third option, 100GB widescreen video iPod with wifi and Bluetooth. Now can you see millions of people who are currently under contract with other carriers buying this premium iPod capable of accessing the internet through their existing phone via BT? I doubt I will buy an iPhone, but I would buy this premium iPod in a heartbeat.

Hunts121
Jun 13, 2007, 01:55 PM
an 8 GB video iPod? (the iPhone) wow thats pretty useless. For a phone its pretty amazing, but if its to be primarily used as an iPod/Video iPod, its not for me. If I'm getting any sort of iPod it has to be 30Gb at the very least. There is no way the iPhone is the video iPod we've been waiting on. Its another product altogether.

However, lets assume it is, I'm not paying 600 bucks for a video iPod with 8GB of space..I don't care what else it does there just isn't enough space for it to be my sole iPod nevermind one with music and video on it.

gkarris
Jun 13, 2007, 02:01 PM
an 8 GB video iPod? (the iPhone) wow thats pretty useless. For a phone its pretty amazing, but if its to be primarily used as an iPod/Video iPod, its not for me If I'm getting any sort of iPod it has to be 30Gb at the very least. There is no way the iPhone is the video iPod we've been waiting on. Its another product altogether.

However, lets assume it is, I'm not paying 600 bucks for a video iPod with 8GB of space..I don't care what else it does there just isn't enough space for it to be my sole iPod nevermind one with music and video on it.

Yea, my 60 Gig is fast becoming full. I'd like to see a 120 Gig... maybe even a 160 Gig to match the :apple:TV.

rockthecasbah
Jun 13, 2007, 02:08 PM
I believe that is why Apple limited the iPhone to the 4GB or 8GB, to prevent canabalization. There will always be a desire for more space and by limiting the one, they keep the standard iPod alive longer. Hopefully they release it with similar characteristics to the iPhone (touch screen but no WiFi or Edge) and give a slight bump in capacity while still keeping prices around that $250-400 mark.

66217
Jun 13, 2007, 02:25 PM
I'm hearing that Apple wants to go with all flash-based iPods. Hence the long wait until the prices for memory goes down...

But if they are going to make a widescreen iPod, you would want to have a lot of space for videos. And flash drives of 100GB are still a long way to become cheap.

evanrousso
Jun 13, 2007, 02:34 PM
Some people may be forgetting that at&t may have a say in this too. They certainly don't want a new ipod to come out and undercut their two year service agreements required to purchase an iPhone. Maybe part of their deal with Apple was for Apple to hold off on a similarly functioning ipod until next year.

Out of the two companies, at&t and Apple, who do you think has the power in the iPhone situation anyways? Apple may have introduced the device and built the hype, but they need at&t (for some reason) to bring it to the market. Why they couldnt have released it unlocked is beyond me, but that is neither here nor their.

If I had to guess I would say that at&t wants Apple to hold off on a new iPod. Any thoughts?

evanrousso
Jun 13, 2007, 02:37 PM
One more thing...

If at&t isn't an issue, I don't see a new iPod cutting into iPhone sales either. Take the MacBook and the MacBook Pro for example. There aren't huge differences between the two, when the Pro gets an upgrade, the MacBook gets it a few months later. Aside from the screen size, extra usb port , and backlit keys, you can get the same MacBook BTO as a MacBook Pro.

atszyman
Jun 13, 2007, 02:45 PM
Some people may be forgetting that at&t may have a say in this too. They certainly don't want a new ipod to come out and undercut their two year service agreements required to purchase an iPhone. Maybe part of their deal with Apple was for Apple to hold off on a similarly functioning ipod until next year.

I doubt it would be til next year, at most a few months, once the hype dies down. at&t doesn't necessarily care which phone people buy their 2 year contract with. Their job is to (over)charge for the network services. Any phone they can sell a 2 year contract with voice and data plans is their goal. In fact it might be in their better interest to not have the iPhone sold on the plans since they will be many people's first line of tech support on a rev A product that is likely to have a few bugs.

Out of the two companies, at&t and Apple, who do you think has the power in the iPhone situation anyways? Apple may have introduced the device and built the hype, but they need at&t (for some reason) to bring it to the market. Why they couldnt have released it unlocked is beyond me, but that is neither here nor their.

They needed at least one provider to modify their voicemail system to support the iPhone's voice mail features. Also, they needed a network to test on, and I'm sure any part of the agreement for using the network for testing required some exclusivity on distribution.

If I had to guess I would say that at&t wants Apple to hold off on a new iPod. Any thoughts?

I don't think at&t cares much other than the initial wave. If the press and reviews are good and word of mouth is strong, people will keep coming for the iPhone. If reviews are bad or there are some massive bugs then they are in better shape if Apple releases the iPod to try to push people toward more reliable phones along with the new iPod. Since at&t is likely making little to no money off the phone itself their primary goal will be to get people into the stores and signed up for contracts, iPhone or not.

mhuk01
Jun 13, 2007, 02:53 PM
personally I am 99% certain i'll buy the iphone when it is released at the end of the year in the UK (provided vodafone get the deal as i'm tied into their contract :mad: )

although it doesn't have nearly enough space (i am over my 20gig ipod limit and thats just music!) - i love the idea of having this all in one device with internet etc.

If apple replicate the iphone with a hard drive based non-phone hard drive version, i don't think it'll include any internet for the simple fact that it would then be an iphone with huge capacity, just no phone. This WOULD take sales away from the iphone for sure. However, i could see the potential for apple to release a touch ipod with just video and music.

By the end of the year? wouldn't that be great! :) but if they do this, it would only be a US launch which would piss everyone but the US off bigtime! A worldwide launch simply wouldn't be possible as the iphone would only just be getting released in europe, it would be marketing suicide.

To conclude, i'm sure it'll come, but probably not until '08, or marketed very differently from the iphone to avoid loss of sales.

Yvan256
Jun 13, 2007, 02:56 PM
That's no reason to include Wifi. By that logic MacBooks should all have the same features as the Pros because all the R&D and parts suppliers are in place. But they don't have backlit keyboards, FW800, or dedicated graphics, partly due to price points, mostly due to keeping the lines distinct.

What you just said contradicts what I said above. Your logic assumes the prices are different, which I've listed above as a 100GB 6th gen. iPod (with Wi-Fi and all) being the same price as the iPhone. What I meant was that the R&D was done, all the work for getting the parts was done, etc. There's no real work involved, all they have to do is take the iPhone and remove things from it.

Maybe only the high-end model of iPod could include the Wi-Fi and programs part, but as I said above, the competition isn't standing still either. Adding the software doesn't add anything to the cost of the iPod, and Wi-Fi ICs can't cost that much if they can fit them inside 20$ Wi-Fi Network Finder keychains.

Now that we've seen what Apple can fit inside a case the side of an iPod, we want those features. And a 8GB iPhone is useless for someone who needs, say, 60GB of storage space.

Edit: I really don't understand why so many of you think that Apple should not include the Wi-Fi, Safari, Mail, Google Maps and all on the next iPod. Saying "but it's not what an iPod is for" is a weak argument. Imagine saying that about videos when the 1st or 2nd gen. iPod came out. You would have been the ones saying "but the iPod is for music, movies have nothing to do with an iPod." It's the progression of the iPod, and now that Apple has shown it for the iPhone, we know it exists, we know it can be done and we want it for the next iPod too. It's as simple as that.

Why would the high-end iPod be tied to a phone carrier, it makes absolutely no sense. And that high-end iPod is limited to 8GB of storage, which makes it a pretty weak iPod IMHO. That's like being forced to get dial-up AOL internet access with your Mac Pro. Oh, and that Mac Pro only has 40GB of drive space too, by the way. :rolleyes:

atszyman
Jun 13, 2007, 03:12 PM
What you just said contradicts what I said above. Your logic assumes the prices are different, which I've listed above as a 100GB 6th gen. iPod (with Wi-Fi and all) being the same price as the iPhone. What I meant was that the R&D was done, all the work for getting the parts was done, etc. There's no real work involved, all they have to do is take the iPhone and remove things from it.


I just don't see them raising the price of iPods so that they can include WiFi. I don't think I've ever seen an iPod that costs more than $400 and the usual model is to update/add features while cutting the price not raising it. I'm not saying iPods will never have it but I would almost be willing to bet that the first generation widescreen/touchscreen video iPods won't have WiFi. Possibly a similar interface to the iPhone music/movie/photo browsers but without all the underlying OS required to do web browsing and email.

As for WiFi being cheap, Bluetooth has always been fairly cheap chipset wise but I remember when it was a BTO option only on iBooks while standard on PowerBooks. Just because it's cheap doesn't mean that the designers/builders want to add another chipset that might malfunction or affect design yields or add more time to functional/verification testing.

Time will tell who is right here, but I just don't see the iPods getting WiFi in the near term.

As for just removing things from the iPhone it's not always that simple. They have to make room for the HD which is going to be bigger than the flash memory without greatly increasing the size. They also have to put together the whole HD interface circuitry and make work with the (new?) CPU. And why have the bloated iPhone OS when all you really need are the photo/music/video browsers?

jdechko
Jun 13, 2007, 03:15 PM
I can see this happening:

iPhone
iPod (like iPhone but without phone/web/email)

and ONE MORE THING...

Introducing the iNewton!

iPod + WiFi :D

(**Ducks**)

gkarris
Jun 13, 2007, 03:20 PM
I can see this happening:

iPhone
iPod (like iPhone but without phone/web/email)

and ONE MORE THING...

Introducing the iNewton!

iPod + WiFi :D

(**Ducks**)

iDon'tThinkSo...

with the iPhone, Steve said that the whole "writing stylus" thing is passe...

Yvan256
Jun 13, 2007, 03:23 PM
I just don't see them raising the price of iPods so that they can include WiFi. I don't think I've ever seen an iPod that costs more than $400 and the usual model is to update/add features while cutting the price not raising it. I'm not saying iPods will never have it but I would almost be willing to bet that the first generation widescreen/touchscreen video iPods won't have WiFi. Possibly a similar interface to the iPhone music/movie/photo browsers but without all the underlying OS required to do web browsing and email.

You seem to be under the impression that including Wi-Fi costs a lot. But it doesn't. You can get USB Wi-Fi devices for about 30$US. That's the selling price for a single unit and it includes all the USB stuff.

Also, don't forget the discounts when buying in quantities. Yes, the CPU for the iPhone may cost more, however maybe including a different CPU in the next iPod would end up costing the same price since they would be buying X CPUs model 1 for the iPhone and Y CPUs model 2 for the iPod instead of X*2 CPUs model 1 for both the iPhone and iPod.


As for WiFi being cheap, Bluetooth has always been fairly cheap chipset wise but I remember when it was a BTO option only on iBooks while standard on PowerBooks. Just because it's cheap doesn't mean that the designers/builders want to add another chipset that might malfunction or affect design yields or add more time to functional/verification testing.

There also was a customer demand reason. I've never used Bluetooth in my life, even though my 12" PowerBook has it. Bluetooth has always been more "business-oriented", with the phone headsets, syncing and all. There was no point in including it in the early iBooks. But now that we have Bluetooth keyboards and mouses, the MacBook has it. As simple as that.

Now, everybody uses the internet, email and all those Internet Communicator programs that are included on the iPhone. They're not only for businessmen. They're not even tied to the phone part, aside from being able to click a link that was detected as being a phone number just like email links that can be clicked, which opens the Mail program.

Time will tell who is right here, but I just don't see the iPods getting WiFi in the near term.

And I don't see the next iPod without Wi-Fi.

In any case, I think that most people will agree that the next iPod should be widescreen.

The question is: when is it coming out? :confused:

atszyman
Jun 13, 2007, 04:07 PM
You seem to be under the impression that including Wi-Fi costs a lot. But it doesn't. You can get USB Wi-Fi devices for about 30$US. That's the selling price for a single unit and it includes all the USB stuff.

I know that WiFi is cheap but just because a feature is cheap does not mean it needs to be included as one more feature to test and/or break or cause yield issues.

Also, don't forget the discounts when buying in quantities. Yes, the CPU for the iPhone may cost more, however maybe including a different CPU in the next iPod would end up costing the same price since they would be buying X CPUs model 1 for the iPhone and Y CPUs model 2 for the iPod instead of X*2 CPUs model 1 for both the iPhone and iPod.

But if the iPod and iPhone use the same processor (which I don't doubt will happen) it now has a flash memory interface running which will have to now work with a HD. The interface and drivers may be very similar but not necessarily identical.

There also was a customer demand reason. I've never used Bluetooth in my life, even though my 12" PowerBook has it. Bluetooth has always been more "business-oriented", with the phone headsets, syncing and all. There was no point in including it in the early iBooks. But now that we have Bluetooth keyboards and mouses, the MacBook has it. As simple as that.

Now, everybody uses the internet, email and all those Internet Communicator programs that are included on the iPhone. They're not only for businessmen. They're not even tied to the phone part, aside from being able to click a link that was detected as being a phone number just like email links that can be clicked, which opens the Mail program.

How many places do you use your iPod where you wished it had internet functions? The gym, in your car? People already use their phones for browsing emailing and messaging, I just don't see that driving consumer demand for the iPod. The places I'm near a hotspot and need access I usually have my laptop or a computer handy with a much bigger screen for browsing emailing.

And I don't see the next iPod without Wi-Fi.

In any case, I think that most people will agree that the next iPod should be widescreen.

The question is: when is it coming out? :confused:

That is the question. There is almost always a fall update around the beginning of the school year so I'd expect it by then, or at the latest October/November to cash in on Xmas.

aidanpendragon
Jun 13, 2007, 04:33 PM
Edit: I really don't understand why so many of you think that Apple should not include the Wi-Fi, Safari, Mail, Google Maps and all on the next iPod. Saying "but it's not what an iPod is for" is a weak argument.

Simple: too close to, and too much competition for, the much pricier iPhone. It's one thing to have a widescreen video iPod. Same basic product, looks a little nicer, has improved video. But an iPod that has everything but the Phone part - at surely a lower price - is competition they don't need. If you already have a phone, and like all the flashy iPhone features BUT the phone part, you'd just buy a Wifi'd, Safari'd, etc. iPod, and iPhones would rot on shelves.

I don't agree with an earlier poster that AT&T has massive veto power over much of anything, but neither they nor Apple would want to compete with themselves like that.

It's not that we think Apple shouldn't include those components, nor are we saying "that's not what an iPod's for." It's that Apple won't do it out of their own concern for product differentiation and purpose.

Once upon a time, there were two computers. The Lisa cost thousands and thousands of dollars. The Macintosh did everything the Lisa could at a fraction of the cost. Guess which one sold, and which one withered? Steve may be stubborn, but he probably remembers that lesson.

Yvan256
Jun 13, 2007, 04:46 PM
Simple: too close to, and too much competition for, the much pricier iPhone.

Higher price doesn't equal more profit. We don't know how much it costs for the phone parts. There's also probably FCC license fees in that price too. Removing the phone costs may very well lower the cost to 399$US, we simply don't know.

Once upon a time, there were two computers. The Lisa cost thousands and thousands of dollars. The Macintosh did everything the Lisa could at a fraction of the cost. Guess which one sold, and which one withered? Steve may be stubborn, but he probably remembers that lesson.

So what. Would you rather sell 10M iPhones with a 200$ profit on it, or 100M iPods with a 100$ profit on it? Remember, the potential customer base for the iPhone is extremely small compared to the iPod.

As for current phones having a browser, email and messaging, well, they all suck. No real browser on most phones, and the crappy numeric keypad is the worst possible way to enter an URL, type an email or reply to IMs.

Also, we carry our iPods all the time. This is about "I wish I had internet access right now", not "I'll bring my big, heavy, 1000$ 13 inch laptop with me just in case I need internet access".

And my last point still stands: the iPod needs to take another major leap ahead of the competition. A widescreen display alone just doesn't cut it anymore, even with a touch-screen interface.

atszyman
Jun 13, 2007, 04:52 PM
Simple: too close to, and too much competition for, the much pricier iPhone. It's one thing to have a widescreen video iPod. Same basic product, looks a little nicer, has improved video. But an iPod that has everything but the Phone part - at surely a lower price - is competition they don't need. If you already have a phone, and like all the flashy iPhone features BUT the phone part, you'd just buy a Wifi'd, Safari'd, etc. iPod, and iPhones would rot on shelves.

Exactly. I see the options as follows (assume Hard Drive based iPods 80-100 GB capacity)

iPod with WiFi at current price points would lead to most people buying an iPod and a cheap/free cell phone.

iPod with WiFi at iPhone price point would yield many to forsake the iPod, sure the capacity is greater but I can definitely force myself to live on 4-8 GB if it means I have one less device to carry, especially since my laptop is always with me and I can re-sync if there's something I need.

To many of us the only option that makes sense is an iPod without WiFi at the current price point. You get greater capacity for less money but you lose connectivity (please keep bluetooth for syncing though).

Now the killer iPhone companion would be a ~$100, 60-100GB NAS Hard Drive (with replaceable batteries) for carrying media files and accessing via the iPhone. Load your entire library on it and you can re-sync/fetch what you need without having to use your PC or laptop. If reliable enough these could also be sold as Time Machine disks....

So what. Would you rather sell 10M iPhones with a 200$ profit on it, or 100M iPods with a 100$ profit on it? Remember, the potential customer base for the iPhone is extremely small compared to the iPod.

I thought when Steve first introduced the iPhone he pointed out that a tiny fraction of the Cell phone market would eclipse total iPod sales? Or was I hallucinating again?

aidanpendragon
Jun 13, 2007, 05:25 PM
So what. Would you rather sell 10M iPhones with a 200$ profit on it, or 100M iPods with a 100$ profit on it? Remember, the potential customer base for the iPhone is extremely small compared to the iPod.

All the buzz I've been hearing is not "can they sell the iPhone" but "how many hours/days will it take to go through the initial 10 million (?) supply." Some are saying Steve's goal of 45 million sold through 2008 could be reached much earlier. EVERYONE is saying "this isn't like the iPod that will take years to reach big sales." Whether they pan out or not, those expectations are what Apple will base its plans, iPod included, on.

And let's rephrase your question: would you rather sell 10M iPhones or 100M iPods, or 10M iPhones AND 100M iPods? If you have devices too similar to each other, you're in the first scenario. If they are sufficiently different - iPhone and 5G/6G with "just" widescreen video iPod - you're in the second scenario. That's surely where Apple is aiming.

jdechko
Jun 14, 2007, 10:43 AM
iDon'tThinkSo...

with the iPhone, Steve said that the whole "writing stylus" thing is passe...

Who said anything about a stylus? :)

Basically the iPhone form factor across all 3 product lines, but each has varying levels of functionality going from iPod (music/movies/photos) to iNewton (music/movies/photos/WiFi+Safari) to iPhone (music/movies/photos/WiFi+Safari/Phone)

atszyman
Jun 14, 2007, 01:40 PM
I thought when Steve first introduced the iPhone he pointed out that a tiny fraction of the Cell phone market would eclipse total iPod sales? Or was I hallucinating again?

I found it in the keynote.

2006 MP3 player sales ~130 million
2006 Cell phone sales ~987 million

1% of Cell phone market ~10 million units

The cell phone market is a much bigger playing field but I'd really like to see stats on the 987 million phones as to how many of them were "smartphones" with functions similar to the iPhone where it's going to be competing. I don't see pulling in a lot of the "free phone" market, like myself (at least not this early).

Thomas421
Jun 15, 2007, 07:28 AM
erm... from the apple website:
«iPhone is a widescreen iPod with touch controls that lets you enjoy your content — including music, audiobooks, videos, TV shows, and movies — on a beautiful 3.5-inch widescreen display. It also lets you sync your content from the iTunes library on your PC or Mac.»


iPhone is a widescreen iPod
vs
iPhone is the widescreen iPod

I think theres a huge difference here..


[just my 0.02€]

killerrobot
Jun 15, 2007, 10:22 AM
I don't think Apple was ever trying to make a true Video iPod. I think they would have by now but instead put all their focus over the last I don't know how many months into making the iPhone (the widescreen ipod). I think the iPhone has killed the video star (ipod) and taken its place.

aidanpendragon
Jun 15, 2007, 11:58 AM
I don't think Apple was ever trying to make a true Video iPod. I think they would have by now but instead put all their focus over the last I don't know how many months into making the iPhone (the widescreen ipod). I think the iPhone has killed the video star (ipod) and taken its place.

Although I didn't mention this initially as a by-intent reason, it certainly fits compellingly with a "plans change" situation. We've seen how Leopard has taken a hit from the iPhone. Or, maybe they started on the video iPod, got the interface, and realized they could do so much more with it?

Anyone have May iPod sales numbers? Unless there's a big drop-off recently, the player is still selling and Apple may be loathe to mess with it anytime soon.

Me, I'll probably hold out until the next iPod revision, see if it's video or not, and buy one depending on how badly I feel like I need it. In MOST cases, revisions are not one on top of the other, so if the next one isn't video, it'll probably be a while before there is. (I can't tell from the Buyer's Guide when the iPod Photo came out & how long before it was replaced by the 5G...)

milo
Jun 15, 2007, 12:15 PM
It won't kill a video ipod, but it may delay it a bit.

I wouldn't expect a video ipod until a few months after the iPhone ships and is established, maybe not until after the first iPhone price drop.

While there is some overlap, there are many consumers who would only buy one or the other. They need to have both, the challenge will be figuring out the balance of features versus pricing.

And while a new ipod may have a few more features, I'd expect it to not have internet browsing or similar things at the iPhone level. That would definitely cross the line of being too similar to iPhone.

killerrobot
Jun 15, 2007, 06:47 PM
Although I didn't mention this initially as a by-intent reason, it certainly fits compellingly with a "plans change" situation. We've seen how Leopard has taken a hit from the iPhone. Or, maybe they started on the video iPod, got the interface, and realized they could do so much more with it?



That's exactly what I mean. I also think the iPhone is still going to be the major product under development because they have to do a lot of work with it still in order to be able to release it in Euro by 4Q. And with Leopard coming out around the same time, I just feel they're gonna drop the whole Videopod.

roland.g
Jun 15, 2007, 08:07 PM
As flash storage goes up and prices go down, the Nano can begin to approach the 16 and 32 gig size. This makes the Nano an attractive and small form factor iPod. I think Apple may elect to keep the existing video iPod in a 60 or 80 gig size for say $299 or $349 for those who want larger storage but the original functionality. Then they can offer the touch-screen iPhone like iPod with Music, Photo and Video, utilizing coverflow and turning over album covers to see song lists, etc, in a slightly thicker than iPhone variant with no phone like functions, no browsing, no mail for $399 or $449, probably using a flash/hdd mix.

FF_productions
Jun 15, 2007, 08:21 PM
I can totally see a touch screen iPod out of Apple. They have the patents to put together a touch screen iPod together. Sure it will still be a hard drive based iPod, but it will have a big capacity.

Yes, Apple did say the iPhone is the best iPod they've ever made and that is true, come on look how cool it is!

Whenever the apple special event is (sept oct) we will see a new iPod.

That is why the free iPod deal is going on right now so they can sell off all the iPods.

Royale w/cheese
Jun 15, 2007, 11:01 PM
Doesn't anyone think that the next generation iPod would have to have some sort of wifi capability, maybe not a full browser, but for syncing or sharing like the zune or a small number of other players out there? Even if it is not a highly touted feature as is seems it is with the zune, I would think apple would do it just because others have it and they wouldn't want to be left behind in that respect. But then again, maybe they wouldn't want to anger people by releasing a crippled product. I don't know, but I have a $300 gift certificate that is just waiting to be in Steve's pocket. :)