Latest palestinian infighting; what's it all about then?

[dogbone]

It's been brewing for a while and now Abbas' and Haniya's chaps are targetting each other and their leaders.

Notwithstanding that it's all Israel's fault as the default position for the Palestinians who cause all this chaos, is that they are not responsible for their actions, I am genuinely wondering if the fighting is about anything other than the right to wage continuous war with Israel.

Abbas wants peace and Hamas are clear in their ultimate aim.

Is there some other fundamental difference they are fighting over?

link1 (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1923755.ece)
link2 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6747207.stm)

[SMM]

I doubt if you can have any regional peace, when the desert is covered in refugee camps. Regardless of what first put them there, a child born in the first camps would be over 50 years old today. That is one hell of a way to spend your life. While much of the world lives in relative prosperity, most of those poor people have never known anything but the camp. The one hope they carry, is someday they will win their homeland back.

We do not see many documentaries about life there. It must be terrible. These people seem to be the ones that escape our attention. When the world accepts the injustice done to these people, and makes amends, then peace may have a chance.

[dogbone]

@SMM

I refer you to my second sentence, for a quick re read.

And to the last sentence, with special emphasis on "other"

[skunk]

@SMM

I refer you to my second sentence, for a quick re read.

And to the last sentence, with special emphasis on "other"You don't really do "empathy", do you?

[dogbone]

You don't really do "empathy", do you?

Aw gee, that's not very nice. I have a lot of empathy for posters like you who'd really like to have an answer to my question, intead of treating it rhetorically.

[.Andy]

Aw gee, that's not very nice. I have a lot of empathy for posters like you who'd really like to have an answer to my question, intead of treating it rhetorically.
The last thing you want is answers to your question.

[solvs]

Why do all of your threads here seem to be about Palestine?

[dogbone]

The last thing you want is answers to your question.
Thanks for that useful contribution.

Why do all of your threads here seem to be about Palestine?

Er, I just did a quick count of the front page on the Political Board and this thread appears to be the only one out of the 50 I scanned that is about the 'Palestinians'. So maybe this is an indication of the difficulty you are having in coming up with a plausible answer to my original question. Or maybe not.

Edit: Whoops misread that my threads? Er could the answer be that they are the only ones you look at, perhaps?

[.Andy]

Edit: Whoops misread that my threads? Er could the answer be that they are the only ones you look at, perhaps?
I think, perhaps, you might have a nauseating bone with Palestine/Muslims/Islam.

[Swarmlord]

Frankly, their ability to vent their frustration with their situation at the Israelis has been severely curtailed, so they end up turning against each other.

[obeygiant]

I think Hamas is Islamic Jihad and Fatah is secular. They both want to be the face of the palestinians.

[Swarmlord]

I think Hamas is Islamic Jihad and Fatah is secular. They both want to be the face of the palestinians.

Both are better at generating hostilities than building governments or infrastructure.

[BoyBach]

Is it not a 'classic' struggle for power within a failing 'State'?

[SMM]

@SMM

I refer you to my second sentence, for a quick re read.

And to the last sentence, with special emphasis on "other"

Not sure I am tracking with you here. I did not quote you. I thought I was just adding to the subject, by expressing what I see as the 'brick wall' to peace in the region. The was a period of time when I was trying to keep current with the events there. Eventually I concluded that all groups, Israelies, Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, etc, were the perpetrators of autraucities, and the victims of them. And, as I posted earlier, until the refugee problem is solved, this fighting will continue.

[Queso]

My take? The mistakes have come from two locations. Washington by arming the Fatah leadership and thereby giving the impression that Abbas is a tool of the West, and; Cairo for not securing the Gaza/Egyptian border and thereby allowing Hamas to smuggle in as many weapons as they like. Notice how once again people are selling these groups weapons. Same story all over the world :rolleyes:

The big question is what to do now. I've always advocated Israel allowing troops from other Arab powers such as Egypt to police the Palestinian territories and stop these political militias from having official power. Maybe what they need is a benevolent dictator (like Gaddafi appears to have become), someone who won't suffer dissent but has the best interests of the people at heart. What is certainly not needed is Israel sending in the troops to try and sort it out, but I guess that's the most likely outcome.

[Swarmlord]

<snip>The one hope they carry, is someday they will win their homeland back.<snip>.

I found that comment funny. They ARE living in their homeland. Their homeland is where they were born and are currently living. They have a flag, a government, etc.

What are they waiting for? Maybe they just need an Olympic team or something so that they feel like they are a real country.

[skunk]

I found that comment funny. They ARE living in their homeland. Their homeland is where they were born and are currently living. They have a flag, a government, etc.

What are they waiting for? Maybe they just need an Olympic team or something so that they feel like they are a real country.Oh really? I suppose that if someone stole your land and let you live on a reservation under armed guard and constant humiliation at checkpoints, imprisoned members of your family and rocketed your streets, you'd be happy, would you? You are totally lacking in empathy. You will never find a solution while you are standing waist-deep in denial.

[obeygiant]

Both are better at generating hostilities than building governments or infrastructure.

You've got to have priorities y'know. :rolleyes:

I wonder when the media will call this conflict a civil war?

[dogbone]

I think Hamas is Islamic Jihad and Fatah is secular. They both want to be the face of the palestinians.

Well, that's another explanation. So is this a battle then for secularism over fundamentalism then? If it is that rather than the issue of peace with Israel, then surely this puts a different flavour on the Palestinian struggle. Do Fatah represent the true will of the people that has been supressed, by the overly zealous Hamas.

[Macky-Mac]

Well, that's another explanation. So is this a battle then for secularism over fundamentalism then? If it is that rather than the issue of peace with Israel, then surely this puts a different flavour on the Palestinian struggle. Do Fatah represent the true will of the people that has been supressed, by the overly zealous Hamas.

Fatah had been more or less the main Palestinian party for years and years but over time developed a reputation for extensive corruption and incompetent administration while in control of the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinians seemed to have tired of that. Hamas won the last elections fairly easily, unseating Fatah from power.

Unfortunately for the Palestinians, they seem to have traded the corruption of Fatah for Hamas' agenda of war instead of peace

[Swarmlord]

Oh really? I suppose that if someone stole your land and let you live on a reservation under armed guard and constant humiliation at checkpoints, imprisoned members of your family and rocketed your streets, you'd be happy, would you? You are totally lacking in empathy. You will never find a solution while you are standing waist-deep in denial.

Stole it? So, are the Palestineans Ottomans, Romans, Canaanites or what? Must have owned it sometime between the dinosaurs and those empires (I'm sure I left some out too.)

The armed guards are at the borders between them and Israel. If they are living under armed guard in the center of their own country, seems like an internal problem to me.

Who's rocketing whom did you say? Are you saying that Israelis just wake up in the morning and shell Palestine unprovoked? Who's in denial? The only people I empathize with in this situation is the Israelis and their patience with Palestineans.

[Eraserhead]

If they are living under armed guard in the center of their own country, seems like an internal problem to me.

Well yes that would be true, except the troops doing the guarding are Israeli.

[Swarmlord]

Well yes that would be true, except the troops doing the guarding are Israeli.

Every armed troop within the West Bank and Gaza (not at the borders) is Israeli. News to me. Must be hard to find good men from the native population then. Recurring theme in that region though.

Should make it easier to police then. Just target any Arab men with guns since they couldn't possible be police or security since that's all done by Israelis.:rolleyes:

[Eraserhead]

Every armed troop within the West Bank and Gaza (not at the borders) is Israeli.

Well obviously not, but the ones controlling the Palestinians movement around their country with checkpoints are.

[Queso]

Stole it? So, are the Palestineans Ottomans, Romans, Canaanites or what? Must have owned it sometime between the dinosaurs and those empires (I'm sure I left some out too.)
So are you basically saying that colonialism and ethnic cleansing are okay in the modern world then? What happened in Palestine is akin to the South African homelands under Apartheid. It wasn't acceptable to the world down in Bophutaswana or Transkei, so why is it deemed acceptable in Palestine? Are you saying the South African National Party did the right thing all those years?

The only people I empathize with in this situation is the Israelis and their patience with Palestineans.
Did you empathise with the 9/11 victims? They were just minding their own business when suddenly a plane came through the window. For most of the people in Palestine it's the same when the rockets come flying in. They're just trying and go about their daily lives. Surely you can empathise with them, trapped as they are between a militia on one side and the Israeli Army on the other.

[BoyBach]

Must be hard to find good men from the native population then. Recurring theme in that region though.


Yeah, the 'theme' started with Jesus. Oh wait, you didn't mean that though did you?

By the way, are you still advocating mass death through the denial of basic amenities as a solution to the Palestine Problem?

[Swarmlord]

Well obviously not, but the ones controlling the Palestinians movement around their country with checkpoints are.

The key word is "around". I already said that the Isrealis have security forces at the border. I fail to see how that affects life deep within the Palestinean land itself.

[Swarmlord]

So are you basically saying that colonialism and ethnic cleansing are okay in the modern world then? What happened in Palestine is akin to the South African homelands under Apartheid. It wasn't acceptable to the world down in Bophutaswana or Transkei, so why is it deemed acceptable in Palestine? Are you saying the South African National Party did the right thing all those years?


Did you empathise with the 9/11 victims? They were just minding their own business when suddenly a plane came through the window. For most of the people in Palestine it's the same when the rockets come flying in. They're just trying and go about their daily lives. Surely you can empathise with them, trapped as they are between a militia on one side and the Israeli Army on the other.

You forget to mention which direction the first volley of rockets come from.

Also, I make no comparisons with any other current or historical situation whether Africa or whatever.

[Swarmlord]

Yeah, the 'theme' started with Jesus. Oh wait, you didn't mean that though did you?

By the way, are you still advocating mass death through the denial of basic amenities as a solution to the Palestine Problem?

Better check your history book. The Arabs in the region have been battling with each other and the Israelites LONG before Jesus was ever born.

What basic ammenities are being denied to Palestineans that their government itself isn't imposing on their people? It's not a valid argument. There is so much aid flowing in to the Palestinean authority that their leaders can't even transfer it to their Swiss bank accounts fast enough.

They ever get their hands on the money their "savior" Arafat pillaged all those years? I think the Israelis are the least of the Palestineans problems.

[skunk]

The key word is "around". I already said that the Isrealis have security forces at the border. I fail to see how that affects life deep within the Palestinean land itself.I can't believe you are unaware that the fragmented and discrete configuration of Palestinian reservations makes it impossible for them to move between most of their towns without going through several Israeli checkpoints. You are either being remarkably obtuse or showing remarkable ignorance.

[Queso]

You forget to mention which direction the first volley of rockets come from.
That no longer matters. Even if the first of the day comes from Gaza it's in response to one from Israel the day before, which is in response....., which is in response.....etc etc.

And please don't kop out of my comparison between Israel and Apartheid South Africa. Did you think that the Afrikaaners were right to demand that native tribes in the area be relocated into homelands? It's a very close parallel with Palestine, complete with colonial rulers, riots, violence, the works. So I'm interested in what your thoughts on that matter were.

[Swarmlord]

I can't believe you are unaware that the fragmented and discrete configuration of Palestinian reservations makes it impossible for them to move between most of their towns without going through several Israeli checkpoints. You are either being remarkably obtuse or showing remarkable ignorance.

Geez, sounds like the guys in the Gaza strip don't want the other guys from the West Bank travelling over there anyway. If the Palestineans could enforce their own security the Israeli wouldn't be there in the first place. Think man.

[skunk]

Better check your history book. The Arabs in the region have been battling with each other and the Israelites LONG before Jesus was ever born.No, this won't do: you've made several assertions like this on which I have challenged you, and you have failed every time to explain what you are referring to. Either provide examples or shut up.

What basic ammenities are being denied to Palestineans that their government itself isn't imposing on their people? It's not a valid argument. There is so much aid flowing in to the Palestinean authority that their leaders can't even transfer it to their Swiss bank accounts fast enough.They are being denied equitable access to water, freedom of movement and the use of tax receipts. The Israelis are holding back hundreds of millions, as are the EU, the US and others.

[Swarmlord]

That no longer matters. Even if the first of the day comes from Gaza it's in response to one from Israel the day before, which is in response....., which is in response.....etc etc.

And please don't kop out of my comparison between Israel and Apartheid South Africa. Did you think that the Afrikaaners were right to demand that native tribes in the area be relocated into homelands? It's a very close parallel with Palestine, complete with colonial rulers, riots, violence, the works. So I'm interested in what your thoughts on that matter were.

I don't know enough about the Afrikanns to comment. I do know that the term apartheid as it applied to South Africa is not what is happening in the Middle East.

[BoyBach]

The key word is "around". I already said that the Isrealis have security forces at the border. I fail to see how that affects life deep within the Palestinean land itself.


Could it be that the Israeli 'Security Fence' being built within and surrounding Palestinian territory is responsible for blocking your view of "life deep within the Palestinian land itself"?

[Swarmlord]

No, this won't do: you've made several assertions like this on which I have challenged you, and you have failed every time to explain what you are referring to. Either provide examples or shut up.

They are being denied equitable access to water, freedom of movement and the use of tax receipts. The Israelis are holding back hundreds of millions, as are the EU, the US and others.

Lol! Are you telling me that the Arab Israelite conflict didn't exist before Christianity or Islam was established? You're kidding, right?

As for your second assertion. Of course their freedom of movement is restricted. Just like we restrict access of dangerous felons and even wildlife for that matter to people they can harm.

As for the money, look to the Arabs that stole it. There's a lot more of it. Any money's we restrict have been traced to terrorist groups. It wasn't being used to purchase aspirin and diapers.

If you think the world should just lay back and enjoy it while the Palestinean terrorists ride roughshod, you're welcome to your opinion.

[Swarmlord]

Could it be that the Israeli 'Security Fence' being built within and surrounding Palestinian territory is responsible for blocking your view of "life deep within the Palestinian land itself"?

Within where it's required to follow the terrain? How's that different from the way our Department of Highways determines the route of a road? Again, it surrounds the territory, it's not paving over the center of it.

The Palestineans know how they can get all that removed and could have avoided having it built a long time ago. They want to fight and kill and keeping them caged until the fight goes out of them is the only solution that has worked to date.

New ideas are always welcomed.

[Queso]

I don't know enough about the Afrikanns to comment. I do know that the term apartheid as it applied to South Africa is not what is happening in the Middle East.
Really? Apartheid was just a policy of Separate Development, but cleverly implemented to make sure that all the best farm and mining land was in the hands of the whites. The black homelands were also often non-homogenous territory, meaning they were dependent on the white South African state to link their many enclaves together. Nelson Mandela and many others who protested this system, violently or otherwise, were either killed or imprisoned as terrorists.

Sounds very much like Israel/Palestine to me. Another interesting parallel. During the Boer Wars, the Afrikaaners were rounded up into concentration camps by the British, where many of them died of disease and starvation. It made them determined to always fight their corner and never give an inch.

[skunk]

Lol! Are you telling me that the Arab Israelite conflict didn't exist before Christianity or Islam was established? You're kidding, right?"Lol!" doesn't answer the question either. Which conflict are you referring to?

As for your second assertion. Of course their freedom of movement is restricted.Please read this before you spout any more of your ill-informed and bigoted rubbish:Fence/Wall
Imagine a wall that cut your world apart…separating you from your family, land, water, school.

How would you survive if you were a farmer cut-off from your farmland because of the construction of a wall you had no say in?

The fence/wall in the West Bank cuts deep inside Palestinian land. The Israeli government claims that it is a ‘defensive measure, designed to block the passage of terrorists, weapons and explosives into the State of Israel’. Why then is the fence/wall not built between the West Bank and Israel and not inside the West Bank?

The fence/wall is now twice the length the Berlin Wall was.

The fence/wall encircles Palestinian towns and villages, cutting off communities and families from each other, separating farmers from their land and Palestinians from workplaces, education and health facilities and other essential services.

Access through the fence/wall is restricted by a network of gates and a system of special permits. Palestinians must obtain these permits from Israeli authorities in order to access their homes and any of their land that is located behind the fence/wall.

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled in an advisory opinion that the construction of the fence/wall by the Israeli army inside the West Bank, including in and around East Jerusalem, violates international human rights and humanitarian law and that "Israel also has an obligation to put an end to the violation of its international obligations flowing from the construction of the wall in Occupied Palestinian Territories".

Amnesty International believes that Israel must immediately halt construction of the fence/wall inside the occupied West Bank, dismantle the sections already built there, and make reparation for the damage caused. The Opinion of this world court underscores that Israel’s right and duty under international law to take measures to stop potential attackers from entering Israel does not justify building such a fence/wall inside the West Bank. The construction has destroyed agricultural land and the livelihood of tens of thousands of Palestinians for the benefit of unlawful Israeli settlements. The security measures that Israel takes must respect international human rights and humanitarian law, including in particular the rights of the Palestinian population.

Where the fence/wall has already been built, the Palestinian population is living under virtual siege in towns and villages surrounded by fences, walls, barbed wires, gates and checkpoints. Farmers are separated from their land and water supply while communities are cut off from each other and from schools, healthcare facilities, and other essential services.

However, most of the fence/wall is not being constructed on the Green Line between Israel and the West Bank. Close to 90% of the route of the fence/wall is on Palestinian land inside the West Bank, encircling Palestinian towns and villages and cutting off communities and families from each other, separating farmers from their land and Palestinians from their places of work, education and health care facilities and other essential services. The total route of the fence/wall runs for more than 650 kilometres, more than double the length of the Green Line, and has an average width of 60 to 80 meters, including barbed wire, ditches, large trace paths and tank patrol lanes on each sides of the fence/wall, as well as additional buffer zones/no-go areas of varying depths.

More than 200,000 Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem will also be cut off from the West Bank and hundreds of thousands of other Palestinians living in towns and villages to the east of the fence/wall will also be affected as they need access to the areas on the other side of the fence/wall to reach their land and their workplaces, schools and health care facilities and other services, and to visit their relatives.
http://www.amnesty.ie/amnesty/live/irish/action/article.asp?id=9922&page=7777

[Eraserhead]

The key word is "around".

:rolleyes: Skunk has covered this pretty well but you are clearly being obtuse. Clearly my choice of words wasn't brilliant however this isn't an English Class :rolleyes:


throughout, all over (the place), everywhere


All of which describe exactly what I mean.

The Palestinian territory isn't in a single block you can travel throughout and there are Israeli checkpoints throughout, mainly guarding the (illegal) settlements Israel has built in the West Bank.

[BoyBach]

The Palestineans know how they can get all that removed and could have avoided having it built a long time ago.


The Palestinians have tried. The Israel Supreme Court has twice found against the route of 'the Fence', as has the United Nation's International Court of Justice.

Mara’abe v. The Prime Minister of Israel (http://elyon1.court.gov.il/files_eng/04/570/079/a14/04079570.a14.pdf)

Beit Sourik Village Council v. The Government of Israel (http://elyon1.court.gov.il/files_eng/04/560/020/a28/04020560.a28.pdf)

Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (http://domino.un.org/UNISPAl.NSF/85255e950050831085255e95004fa9c3/3740e39487a5428a85256ecc005e157a!OpenDocument)


New ideas are always welcomed.


Not always it appears.

[Dont Hurt Me]

I bet the PLO wish they would have taken the agreement that was given to them when Arafat was around. Hate vs Hate I wonder which one will win?Im sure Israel will be the one blamed by both while they kill each other. How long will it take these primitives to figure out more can be accomplished by working together then constant fighting? Another 1,000 years? On a side note Iran is now making it legal to kill anyone making a porn movie:eek: Muslim religious fanatics, just amazing how killing is so important.

[IJ Reilly]

I can't imagine defending the wall, which is an abomination against any conception of justice. But it seems to me that the actual subject of this thread has been left behind in all of the debate about the wall, and it's an important subject. The grim joke going around among Palestinians these days is that they now have their "two state solution." Unfortunately both states are Palestinian. Sadly, they have never been further from an ability to govern themselves, and achieving that ability is the first crucial step towards solving their many problems with Israel, including the wall.

[Swarmlord]

The Palestinians have tried. The Israel Supreme Court has twice found against the route of 'the Fence', as has the United Nation's International Court of Justice.

Mara’abe v. The Prime Minister of Israel (http://elyon1.court.gov.il/files_eng/04/570/079/a14/04079570.a14.pdf)

Beit Sourik Village Council v. The Government of Israel (http://elyon1.court.gov.il/files_eng/04/560/020/a28/04020560.a28.pdf)

Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (http://domino.un.org/UNISPAl.NSF/85255e950050831085255e95004fa9c3/3740e39487a5428a85256ecc005e157a!OpenDocument)





Not always it appears.

They've tried to stop the building of the fence, not the behavior that required its construction in the first place.

[Swarmlord]

I can't imagine defending the wall, which is an abomination against any conception of justice. But it seems to me that the actual subject of this thread has been left behind in all of the debate about the wall, and it's an important subject. The grim joke going around among Palestinians these days is that they now have their "two state solution." Unfortunately both states are Palestinian. Sadly, they have never been further from an ability to govern themselves, and achieving that ability is the first crucial step towards solving their many problems with Israel, including the wall.

If today's developments between Hamas and Fatah are any indication of the direction this is going, there's not going to be a single Palestinean country. Looks like the Gaza folks want to follow their own drummer now.

As far as the wall goes, it's cut down on suicide bombings within Israel itself and until another viable solution is found I see no reason to remove something that is working. Without it neither side is better off and with it at least one side is.

[Eraserhead]

They've tried to stop the building of the fence, not the behavior that required its construction in the first place.

:rolleyes:

Both sides are clearly pretty much equally at fault, they have both retaliated against each other so many times, it is simply naive to place the Israelis as innocent victims.

If today's developments between Hamas and Fatah are any indication of the direction this is going, there's not going to be a single Palestinean country. Looks like the Gaza folks want to follow their own drummer now.

That's because the Israeli's (and the world) didn't allow the democratically elected Palestinian government from operating.

[Blue Velvet]

Both are better at generating hostilities than building governments or infrastructure.


Wrong. One major reason why Hamas has a great deal of support on the ground is due to its ongoing infrastructure projects. I'm linking to Wikipedia here, but any cursory glance of reputable sources (e.g. the BBC, the UN) will say more or less the same thing. You may quibble about the motives, but the actions and results are clear and undeniable.


The organization is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, though it also has a following in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent in other Middle Eastern countries. Since its formation in 1987, Hamas has conducted numerous social, political, and military actions. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare and social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories, including school and hospital construction. The group devotes much of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities".[47] These programs are viewed variously as part of a sincere social development agenda, an integrated para-state policy, as propaganda and recruitment exercises, or both. In fact, by providing these services they succeeded in acquiring popularity among the Palestine people and gaining their political allegiance. Their funds come from the OPECers in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, as well as charitable donations from local and international community

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Activities

[BoyBach]

I can't imagine defending the wall, which is an abomination against any conception of justice. But it seems to me that the actual subject of this thread has been left behind in all of the debate about the wall, and it's an important subject. The grim joke going around among Palestinians these days is that they now have their "two state solution." Unfortunately both states are Palestinian. Sadly, they have never been further from an ability to govern themselves, and achieving that ability is the first crucial step towards solving their many problems with Israel, including the wall.


But surely the ability of the Palestinian Authority to govern over its 'State' is being seriously curtailed by the withdrawal of aid from the EU and US? Add to that the continued restrictions imposed upon the Palestinians by the Israeli border crossings and security fence and is it any wonder that the Palestinian people feel so hopeless that violence seems the only logical outlet of their grievances?

Whilst it is obvious that Hamas and Fatah seem more interested in annihilating each other than in serving the Palestinian people, surely the more 'moderate' members of the PA have been severely let down by those who should be helping them bring about peace.

[IJ Reilly]

But surely the ability of the Palestinian Authority to govern over its 'State' is being seriously curtailed by the withdrawal of aid from the EU and US? Add to that the continued restrictions imposed upon the Palestinians by the Israeli border crossings and security fence and is it any wonder that the Palestinian people feel so hopeless that violence seems the only logical outlet of their grievances?

Whilst it is obvious that Hamas and Fatah seem more interested in annihilating each other than in serving the Palestinian people, surely the more 'moderate' members of the PA have been severely let down by those who should be helping them bring about peace.

I'm not sure I get your point. Poor and even oppressed people do not automatically start slitting each other's throats. The PA under Arafat was incredibly corrupt. Aid money ended up in offshore bank accounts. Real differences exist among the groups struggling for power in Gaza today, differences they are apparently unprepared to work out politically. My point being, the blameology theory goes only so far. If the Palestinians can't find a way to govern themselves even minimally, then they have no hope of working out their problems with Israel. That just stands to reason, I think.

[Dont Hurt Me]

I can't imagine defending the wall, which is an abomination against any conception of justice. But it seems to me that the actual subject of this thread has been left behind in all of the debate about the wall, and it's an important subject. The grim joke going around among Palestinians these days is that they now have their "two state solution." Unfortunately both states are Palestinian. Sadly, they have never been further from an ability to govern themselves, and achieving that ability is the first crucial step towards solving their many problems with Israel, including the wall.What was that?

[IJ Reilly]

What was that?

What was what?

[Dont Hurt Me]

Everything you said in laymans terms.;)

[obeygiant]

That's because the Israeli's (and the world) didn't allow the democratically elected Palestinian government from operating.

They didn't allow them to operate how? By not giving them millions of dollars. Too bad for them. I'm not surprised the United States makes things difficult for an organization that the entire world regards as terrorist and criminal. As they should.

[IJ Reilly]

Everything you said in laymans terms.;)

Hey, I'm a layman. The main point was, if the Palestinians can't manage to govern themselves then they'll have no success dealing with Israel on issues like the wall.

[solvs]

You are either being remarkably obtuse or showing remarkable ignorance.
What else is new.

It's pretty obvious that all sides involved have made mistakes (and done some pretty horrible things), and if they all keep blaming each other and infighting like we are, they'll never get things worked out. Can't help but feel we're making things worse though. Then we wonder why we're caught in the crossfire. :rolleyes:

[Queso]

They didn't allow them to operate how? By not giving them millions of dollars. Too bad for them. I'm not surprised the United States makes things difficult for an organization that the entire world regards as terrorist and criminal. As they should.
Considering the amount of debate in this thread, your assertion that the entire world shares your views is baseless. As for the views of the United States, history shows that they'll deal with just about anyone providing there's money to be made.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/rumsfeld_saddam.gif

[BoyBach]

I'm not sure I get your point. Poor and even oppressed people do not automatically start slitting each other's throats. The PA under Arafat was incredibly corrupt. Aid money ended up in offshore bank accounts. Real differences exist among the groups struggling for power in Gaza today, differences they are apparently unprepared to work out politically. My point being, the blameology theory goes only so far. If the Palestinians can't find a way to govern themselves even minimally, then they have no hope of working out their problems with Israel. That just stands to reason, I think.


My point is if you remove any sense of hope what is left? Rejection? Anger? Fear?

If you systematically destroy an economy and the means of feeding a family and then remove the food aid that these people become reliant upon, what is left?

If a people are constantly abused and oppressed is it any wonder that they will fight the oppressor?

If a 'moderate' party fails in improving living conditions is it any wonder that the oppressed turn to a group that has tried to improve their lives or preaches the destruction of the perceived oppressor?

Civil wars are not uncommon throughout history. Neither is the idea of rival factions killing each other for power.

Including Israel or the West in these discussions is not "blameology", it would be like having a discussion about the causes of the Amercian Civil War and not mentioning slavery.

[Eraserhead]

They didn't allow them to operate how? By not giving them millions of dollars. Too bad for them. I'm not surprised the United States makes things difficult for an organization that the entire world regards as terrorist and criminal. As they should.

Well not exactly, the Israeli's withheld tax revenue (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4669266.stm) from the government too.

The aid also was being withheld from the democratically elected government on the basis of who won the election. I can hardly see that as fair, they could have added additional controls to make sure the money wasn't funnelled into arms (not that we care elsewhere in the world), but they should have been given the money.

[dogbone]

What is certainly not needed is Israel sending in the troops to try and sort it out, but I guess that's the most likely outcome.
But they'll always be damned if they do and damned if they don't won't they?

... But it seems to me that the actual subject of this thread has been left behind...
Thanks for noticing I'll see what I can do.

...Unfortunately both states are Palestinian...
Funny but sadly true.


My point is if you remove any sense of hope...
Oh, phuleeeease, gimme a break. The Western world has been falling over itself trying to help the Palestinians, and but for the intransigent desire of their leaders to destroy Israel no matter how futile, impossible, pointless, or counterproductive, their lot would be vastly improved.


...If you systematically destroy an economy and the means of feeding a family and then remove the food aid that these people become reliant upon, what is left?

The "you" that you refer to is in fact the previous Fatah led by Arafat, and the current Hamas. All Hamas has to do is recognise Israel, which basically means acknowledging their right to peaceful existence. You can't blame Israel for Hamas' choice here.

If a people are constantly abused and oppressed is it any wonder that they will fight the oppressor?

Well this is not a bad explanation for the cause of the current conflict between Hamas who are certainly oppressing the Palestinian people, and Fatah. Thanks.

I've read the whole thread and it's just been the usual I/P stuff, we may as well just have a single ongoing thread seeing as no single issue is able to be discussed for more than 5 minutes before someone mentions "they stole their land" and we're off....

We haven't drifted off topic, the topic was never discussed.

My assumption is that the conflict is about the right to wage continuous war with Israel (Hamas) against Fatah's two state solution. But I'm willing to listen to other explanations. Surely their must be a deep ideological position rather than tit for tat revenge. If it is the latter then the Palestinians have not shown an iota of ability to run their own state. If it is the former then, heaven help them because they can't help themselves. We've seen in Iraq that religion and bombs are a potent weapon against the will of the people.

[Queso]

My assumption is that the conflict is about the right to wage continuous war with Israel (Hamas) against Fatah's two state solution. But I'm willing to listen to other explanations. Surely their must be a deep ideological position rather than tit for tat revenge. If it is the latter then the Palestinians have not shown an iota of ability to run their own state. If it is the former then, heaven help them because they can't help themselves. We've seen in Iraq that religion and bombs are a potent weapon against the will of the people.
I'm going to bring up the South Africa parallel again. The battle between Inkhata and the ANC was mostly that Inkhata wanted to work within the presented system (the two-state) whereas the ANC outright rejected it.

Until the states of Israel and Palestine are merged into one country with equality under the law for all, there will be no progress. Not between what Fatah and Hamas represent, and not between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

[dogbone]

@=dynamicv

"Until the states of Israel and Palestine are merged into one country with equality under the law for all, there will be no progress."

But there is some irony there surely? In Israel there there are at least (probably more) than a million Arab/Israeli citizens who, enjoy the freedoms of a democratic country including serving in parliament and the judiciary. Also women in Israel are generally considered to have quite a bit more freedom, on the whole, and I believe the women of Gaza have already expressed their fear of oppression as Hamas forces the fundamentalist line with regards Sharia law.

It's difficult to see either side willing to go the way of the other.

[Queso]

But there is some irony there surely? In Israel there there are at least (probably more) than a million Arab/Israeli citizens who, enjoy the freedoms of a democratic country including serving in parliament and the judiciary. Also women in Israel are generally considered to have quite a bit more freedom, on the whole, and I believe the women of Gaza have already expressed their fear of oppression as Hamas forces the fundamentalist line with regards Sharia law.

It's difficult to see either side willing to go the way of the other.
At the moment they don't even need to try to, there's the problem. You force them to live together and they'll do it, but only on an equal footing. Even then it'll take a couple of decades before all the problems are ironed out, but that's not justification for not attempting a reconciliation in the first place.

There were Arabs, Christians and Jews living together in that region for centuries before the state of Israel was created. Treat it as a temporary aberration and who knows, maybe they could return to how they were.

[BoyBach]

We haven't drifted off topic, the topic was never discussed.

My assumption is that the conflict is about the right to wage continuous war with Israel (Hamas) against Fatah's two state solution. But I'm willing to listen to other explanations. Surely their must be a deep ideological position rather than tit for tat revenge. If it is the latter then the Palestinians have not shown an iota of ability to run their own state. If it is the former then, heaven help them because they can't help themselves. We've seen in Iraq that religion and bombs are a potent weapon against the will of the people.


How do you propose we conduct a discussion about the current situation in the Palestinian territory if we cannot include Israel, the EU and the US as part of an explanation?

After all, your "assumption is that the conflict is about the right to wage continuous war with Israel..." with which I partly agree. In so much as it is a power struggle for control of the failing 'State' of Palestine being played out with violence as the main - some might argue, only - currency these groups/parties have.

Also, in spite of your insistence on your "willing[ness] to listen to other explanations" you still managed to dismiss me in a derogative manner when I suggested that the rise of support for Hamas could be related to a sense of hopelessness that pervades throughout Palestinian society.

My question is do you want to have a serious, all encompassing discussion on the plight of the Palestinians and the repurcussions for Israel and the wider region? Or do you want to have a narrow discussion - the type that Swarmlord is so adept in?

[IJ Reilly]

My point is if you remove any sense of hope what is left? Rejection? Anger? Fear?

If you systematically destroy an economy and the means of feeding a family and then remove the food aid that these people become reliant upon, what is left?

If a people are constantly abused and oppressed is it any wonder that they will fight the oppressor?

If a 'moderate' party fails in improving living conditions is it any wonder that the oppressed turn to a group that has tried to improve their lives or preaches the destruction of the perceived oppressor?

Civil wars are not uncommon throughout history. Neither is the idea of rival factions killing each other for power.

Including Israel or the West in these discussions is not "blameology", it would be like having a discussion about the causes of the Amercian Civil War and not mentioning slavery.

This is really just the blameology theory restated. According to this theory, once a people have been assigned "no hope" status, anything they might do is now fully excused. In fact there has never been less hope for Palestinians than there is right now, with the Syrian and Iranian backed Hamas taking over in Gaza, the "two state solution" is effectively dead -- and it wasn't Israel that killed it. We've entered a new phase here, one that promises even less hope for the Palestinians achieving self-governance than the ones before. That much at least has to be recognized.

[Eraserhead]

I think the current Fatah vs Hamas thing is because Fatah are hopelessly corrupt and Hamas are less so, thats why the won the election, I don't think the Palestinians like that they are terrorists too, but I think that's the real issue here.

Merging Israel and Palestine into one democratic country is probably the most sensible option at this stage as currently the West Bank/Gaza Strip isn't really a viable country.

[skunk]

The people of Gaza elected Hamas to represent them by a clear majority because Hamas had been putting huge efforts into social services, health and education, and because Hamas was not corrupted by the US, the EU and Israel as Fatah was. The US then began arming Fatah against the elected government, supported Abbas at Hamas' expense, and allowed Israel to withhold millions in tax revenues, thus rendering Hamas unable to operate in the role for which they were elected. The Israelis also arrested and locked up forty elected Hamas representatives, including the speaker of their parliament - precisely those people who were most likely to moderate Hamas' stance and reach a workable compromise with respect to Israel. In other words, this crisis has been engineered by the "Quartet" and Israel in order as they see it to marginalise Hamas. They describe Hamas taking the power which they were elected to exercise as a "coup d'&#234;tat", which is a bit bloody rich, and continue to ignore the expressed democratic will of the people of Gaza. So much for democracy. More asinine and arrogant political hubris from "the West", which will come and bite them in the arse for years, as will so many other examples elsewhere in the Middle East.

[Eraserhead]

More asinine and arrogant political hubris from "the West", which will come and bite them in the arse for years, as will so many other examples elsewhere in the Middle East.

Hmm, In general (with some notable exceptions, like Iraq) seem to be fairly good at keeping ourselves at the top of the heap. But I suppose we wouldn't really lose anything by stabilising the middle east, and would in fact stabilise the main region our fuel comes from for the future.

I think one major problem is that finding a solution to this is very difficult especially when the current US government doesn't really seem to understand how to conduct itself on a world stage.

[skunk]

Hmm, In general (with some notable exceptions, like Iraq) seem to be fairly good at keeping ourselves at the top of the heap. But I suppose we wouldn't really lose anything by stabilising the middle east, and would in fact stabilise the main region our fuel comes from for the future.We could do a lot better by refusing to defend the indefensible: the EU at least should be engaging with Hamas instead of driving them into a corner.

[IJ Reilly]

Also, the Gaza Palestinians are more religiously conservative than the West Bank Palestinians which led them to elect Islamist leaders. Sadly the Palestinians now have a choice between a corrupt/innefectual Fatah or a violent Hamas. In Gaza they've chosen the latter, and the ultimate solution there was violent not political. The way forward has probably never been less clear.

[BoyBach]

This is really just the blameology theory restated. According to this theory, once a people have been assigned "no hope" status, anything they might do is now fully excused. In fact there has never been less hope for Palestinians than there is right now, with the Syrian and Iranian backed Hamas taking over in Gaza, the "two state solution" is effectively dead -- and it wasn't Israel that killed it. We've entered a new phase here, one that promises even less hope for the Palestinians achieving self-governance than the ones before. That much at least has to be recognized.


At what point did I "fully excuse" the behaviour? I am merely airing my opinion and using empathy in relation to the original question.

[Eraserhead]

We could do a lot better by refusing to defend the indefensible: the EU at least should be engaging with Hamas instead of driving them into a corner.

True, that would make a lot of difference, if you don't try you can't possibly get what you want.

[IJ Reilly]

At what point did I "fully excuse" the behaviour? I am merely airing my opinion and using empathy in relation to the original question.

We're all airing our opinions. I was responding to your suggestion that oppressed people should be expected to fight. What you believe are the limits of this behavior or its anticipated results is not clear to me. My other point has been that the Palestinians have created a deep internal divide. This is a problem they have to address, and until they do, they are going to have even greater problems than before in dealing with Israel. In a way, Hamas has done Israel a great favor. The irony is hard to miss.

[BoyBach]

We're all airing our opinions. I was responding to your suggestion that oppressed people should be expected to fight. What you believe are the limits of this behavior or its anticipated results is not clear to me.

When did I suggest that oppressed people should be expected to use violence? I am merely pointing out that I am not surprised that oppressed people would chose violence, or would support a violent group. Are there not a multitude of examples throughout human history of such behaviour?


In a way, Hamas has done Israel a great favor. The irony is hard to miss.


Absolutely. A pertinent comment from today's Independent:

Sami Abdel Shafi: Amid this chaos, suffering will get worse

Published: 15 June 2007

Gaza is a place of captivity. Yet, when the violent clashes between Fatah and Hamas erupted on our streets this week, my wife and I wanted to defy them. We did not want to be held hostage again in our home, which happens every time these so-called titans clash. So we went to see friends.

Shortly after crossing an intersection on our way back, there was a deafening explosion followed by the crackle of gunfire. Not daring to look back, I put my foot down. When I did look back, I could see that a minivan had been blown up with what we later learnt was a rocket-propelled grenade.

Four days on, the Gaza Strip has seen acts of appalling slaughter and brutality. Nearly 30 are dead and hundreds have been wounded. These shameful events, and the almost total breakdown of Palestinian leadership and governance we are now seeing, have not come out of the blue. All the while, Israel's government has avoided dealing with the renewed Arab and Palestinian peace initiative of earlier this year. The Palestinian unity government has been kept in a state of bankruptcy because Israel is withholding hundreds of millions of dollars in Palestinian tax and customs monies.

The Gaza Strip has long been a virtual prison where the movement of goods and people in and out is unbearably difficult. What is under-publicised is how disastrous the siege imposed on Gaza's 1.4 million inhabitants by air, land and sea is, when coupled with the overwhelming sense of uncertainty about the future felt by most of us here. We feel isolated, stowed away on the edge of the earth.

Peace initiatives have gone nowhere, a new government with a peaceful programme has been incapacitated, and the agonies of daily life grow harsher with an absence of medical care, municipal services and any semblance of normal civil life.

Now it is clear that the factional fighting in Gaza will serve no advantage but to Israel. Israel will not only claim it has a weak partner, or none, for peace but it will have more room to further its military policy against Palestinians, in the Gaza Strip particularly, by claiming it now has no functional partner.

The suffering for civilians here can only grow worse. We have not abandoned hope for an eventual peaceful outcome, but right now it feels as if Gaza is staring into an abyss.

Sami Abdel-Shafi is co-founder and senior partner at Emerge Consulting Group, LLC, a management consultancy in Gaza City

http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article2659666.ece

[obeygiant]

Considering the amount of debate in this thread, your assertion that the entire world shares your views is baseless. As for the views of the United States, history shows that they'll deal with just about anyone providing there's money to be made.


Im not sure what youre trying to say here. Is it that the US had dealt with criminals before or is that Hamas isn't a terrorist organization? BTW, the assertion that Hamas is terrorist isn't just my assertion, and to imply that theyre not is a little wacko. They themselves say "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad".Hamas on Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas)

[IJ Reilly]

When did I suggest that oppressed people should be expected to use violence? I am merely pointing out that I am not surprised that oppressed people would chose violence, or would support a violent group. Are there not a multitude of examples throughout human history of such behaviour?

I'm still having a bit of trouble working out these distinctions, at least in the current context, but never mind, we seem to agree on the net impact, which is not good and may have given Israel a political break in the short run.

One thing the article doesn't seem to mention is the background for the embargo. Arms and support for Hamas have been flowing into Gaza by sea and also by land through Egypt. With Hamas now having eliminated their political opposition in Gaza, they have not only left the West Bank twisting in the wind, they're potentially setting off a new confrontation which could involve Syria, Iran and Egypt. Not a happy situation, and not one which can be seen as having improved from the point of view of many Palestinians, and probably not for Israel in the long run.

[BoyBach]

One thing the article doesn't seem to mention is the background for the embargo. Arms and support for Hamas have been flowing into Gaza by sea and also by land through Egypt. With Hamas now having eliminated their political opposition in Gaza, they have not only left the West Bank twisting in the wind, they're potentially setting off a new confrontation which could involve Syria, Iran and Egypt. Not a happy situation, and not one which can be seen as having improved from the point of view of many Palestinians, and probably not for Israel in the long run.


I also read today that the Hamas militia may be trying to strike an early and decisive blow against Fatah before the Israeli/US arms and funding shifts the military power firmly in favour of Fatah.

Another theory was that the more extremist elements of Hamas are fighting - literally - to reclaim the party following the conciliatory language that was adopted towards Israel by it's leader earlier in the year.

Both appear perfectly plausible to me.

[skunk]

Im not sure what youre trying to say here. Is it that the US had dealt with criminals before or is that Hamas isn't a terrorist organization?Both stances have some merit. That the US deals and has dealt with criminals - and indeed that many within the US Administration are themselves guilty of criminal behaviour - is beyond reasonable doubt, as is the fact that therte are those within Hamas who would use terrorism as a tactic; however, neither no useful purpose is served by characterising the US Administration as a whole, nor Hamas as a whole, by reference to their constituent parts, any more than it is useful to assert that "all" Republicans are insane, war criminals, selfish bastards or hypocritical.

[Macky-Mac]

...Until the states of Israel and Palestine are merged into one country with equality under the law for all, there will be no progress. Not between what Fatah and Hamas represent, and not between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

you mean like Lebanon? Or perhaps you're thinking of Yugoslavia as a model? Even the peaceful Czechs and Slovakians couldn't stand living as one country.....so while the idea of one country with equality for all is emotionally appealing, the problem with that idea is that very few people on either side are in favor of such a solution.

Since we haven't tried giving the Palestinians a country of their own, then that seems like the best place to start.

Although maybe a 3 state solution would work better.....maybe Gaza and the West Bank should be different entities

[IJ Reilly]

I also read today that the Hamas militia may be trying to strike an early and decisive blow against Fatah before the Israeli/US arms and funding shifts the military power firmly in favour of Fatah.

Another theory was that the more extremist elements of Hamas are fighting - literally - to reclaim the party following the conciliatory language that was adopted towards Israel by it's leader earlier in the year.

Both appear perfectly plausible to me.

Yes, and neither bodes particularly well for the future.

[dogbone]

A picture says a thousand words...from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6759269.stm)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43052000/jpg/_43052659_desk_ap203body.jpg

Somehow I find it difficult to muster much empathy for a society that has a government that looks like this. You get the government you deserve, as the saying goes.

OK call me a pessimistic but this..."The Arab League agreed to form a committee that would support efforts by Saudi Arabia and Egypt to mediate between Fatah and Hamas." from the above bbc link, just sounds like the same old same again...

Get this, form a "commitee" that would "support", "efforts". Sounds a bit Woody Allenish to me...

"Right now it's only a notion, but I think I can get the money to make it into a concept, and later turn it into an idea." – Woody Allen.

[BoyBach]

You get the government you deserve, as the saying goes.


Sadly true.

[dogbone]

Sadly true.

You need to illustrate the concept with John Howard (on the right) not Tony and Shrub :)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,1658,5528089,00.jpg

But I'm damned sure who I'd pick to govern me if the choice was between Tony Blair and whoever runs Hamas.

Yes I agree that greedy self interested Australians deserved the Howard government who then took away their unfair dismissal rights, refused to build infrastructure and reaped the rewards produced by Keating's deregulated economy. Nevertheless neither the US, UK or Australia political factions are at war with each other, in the literal sense.

I'll be making a more thorough post soon.

[skunk]

Somehow I find it difficult to muster much empathy for a society that has a government that looks like this. You get the government you deserve, as the saying goes.This situation has been brought about by those outside Gaza who have ignored the democratically expressed wishes of the people of Gaza and who have done their damnedest to undermine the Hamas government and make it impossible for them to govern. Forty elected Hamas representatives have been locked up by the Israelis. How can they possibly either act as a government or moderate the actions of their followers?

[skunk]

You need to illustrate the concept with John Howard (on the right) not Tony and Shrub :)All three of them are certifiable War Criminals. Not much of a choice there.

[dogbone]

Merging Israel and Palestine into one democratic country is probably the most sensible option

Problem is that Islamic fundamentalist governments like Hamas, and Iran have declared that democracy is "anti-islam". In fact I suspect that this is the real problem that Hamas has with Israel. I don't think it's that they hate Jews so much as they hate democracy.

Iraq is an example that somehow comes to mind, when the notion of forcing deomcracy onto Islamic fundamentalists will work out.

The US then began arming Fatah against the elected government...
Abbas is the elected president who has constitutional powers to disolve the government, I presume that Hamas must have agreed to this when it was drawn up. So you'd have to support Abbas if you want to quote 'democracy'.

...allowed Israel to withhold millions in tax revenues, thus rendering Hamas unable to operate in the role for which they were elected.

I don't think that Israel or anyone else is required to fund people who openly aim to destroy them. It's a pretty basic concept. So it appears to *me* that any suggestion that they do fund Hamas *seems* to be antisemitic, but that is just my warped perception I fully understand that you are not antisemitic in any way and I don't suggest it, I'm just explaining how the suggestion that Israel should fund Hamas, comes across to me personally.

The Israelis also arrested and locked up forty elected Hamas representatives...
Government ministers in the West are also not above the law. Neither of us can make any meaningful comment about ministers being locked up unless we were privy to *all* the facts, I'm sure you must agree. Otherwise court expenses could be reduced by deciding cases on public forums.:)

How do you propose we conduct a discussion about the current situation in the Palestinian territory if we cannot include Israel, the EU and the US as part of an explanation?
I thought it would expedite discussion if the topic was generally limited to this incredible feud between Hamas and Fatah.

Let me put it this way, I can certainly understand fellow countrymen killing each other in a bloody conflict if the political difference warrants it, for example the Civil War in the America, the principle that African Americans should be enslaved is an abhorent political stance that is well worth killing for. And with that little segue I usher us back onto the topic by asking...

What mighty principle is worth this much bloodshed and horror, is actually being fought over?

[dogbone]

All three of them are certifiable War Criminals. Not much of a choice there.

I notice that the Human Rights Watch has warned Hamas that executing Fatah prisoners under their control is in fact a war crime.


My question is do you want to have a serious, all encompassing discussion on the plight of the Palestinians and the repurcussions for Israel and the wider region? Or do you want to have a narrow discussion

Narrow. Focussing on the fundamental political difference that is so great as to cause the country to be split apart and a hundred killed in the past two days.

[skunk]

Abbas is the elected president who has constitutional powers to disolve the government, I presume that Hamas must have agreed to this when it was drawn up.No, actually, they did not. Both Hamas and Islamic Jihad boycotted the presidential election, which shared the distinction with that in Iraq of being a "democratic" election held under military occupation, with a turnout of only around 40&#37;. I don't think that Israel or anyone else is required to fund people who openly aim to destroy them. It's a pretty basic concept. So it appears to *me* that any suggestion that they do fund Hamas *seems* to be antisemitic, but that is just my warped perception I fully understand that you are not antisemitic in any way and I don't suggest it, I'm just explaining how the suggestion that Israel should fund Hamas, comes across to me personally.How scrupuiously fairminded of you. However, I feel this is a fairer picture of the situation:Palestinians Are Being Robbed by Israel
by Amira Hass

It is evidently difficult to scrub off the sticker that is glued onto the front window. That's why when a new car from Germany or South Korea or the United States rolls onto the packed streets of Gaza or Ramallah, it generally has the big label with thick, red Hebrew letters forming the word "Checked" stuck on its windshield for several months.

The label is a mark of the special customs and security checks conducted at the Israeli seaports of Ashdod or Haifa, which serve as the main entrances for most of the foreign goods bound for the West Bank and Gaza. Palestinians import all sorts of products: water pumps from Sweden, bulldozers and boxes of corn flakes from the United States, plastic toys from China, washing machines from France and cheese from Denmark — and virtually all of them reach their destinations only after they've been through Israeli port authorities and Israeli security checks.

At the ports, Palestinian importers are required to pay the Israeli authorities the value-added tax of 17%, as well as whatever custom taxes are due on goods that come in on their way to the West Bank or Gaza. These transactions (along with direct Palestinian transactions with Israeli firms and merchants) last year yielded revenues of $711 million.

But whose revenues are they?

To judge by the actions of the Israeli Cabinet on Sunday, the money belongs to Israel. The Cabinet announced that it was going to withhold Palestinian tax and customs revenues, at least for the moment, as a response to Hamas' electoral victory. Until the money is released — if it is released — the Israeli treasury will earn the interest.

But it's not supposed to work this way. According to the Oslo accords (and by any standards of common sense and basic justice), the revenues should serve the people who ultimately buy the goods. These tax receipts are not donations of goodwill from Israel; they are not charity. This is not like, say, Dutch foreign aid money, which is given freely by the Dutch people and can be withheld if the Dutch choose to stop giving it. These are tax revenues that are due to the people in the territories where the goods are headed, and the Israelis have no right to hold them up.

Since 1994, these revenues, transferred each month from the Israeli Ministry of Finance, have made up a critical portion of the Palestinian Authority budget. When Israel briefly stopped transferring the revenues in 2001, pressure from the EU and other countries — including the U.S. — forced Israel to reverse its decision. Unfortunately, after the Hamas victory, such pressure seems unlikely.

Last year, the $711 million constituted almost two-thirds of the Palestinian Authority's revenues. (Only $383 million was collected in income and sales taxes within the West Bank and Gaza.) Even with all those revenues, there was still an $800-million shortfall in the Authority's $1.9-billion budget. Why are domestic tax receipts so low? Because the economy is in constant recession and "operates well below its potential," according to the World Bank.

What debilitates and cripples the Palestinian economy is Israel's heavy, systematic restrictions on movement within the occupied territories — hundreds of roadblocks and military checkpoints that delay, prolong and sabotage normal economic activity and, hence, potential tax revenues.

The Palestinian Authority cannot compensate for the "lost" — or perhaps it would be more accurate to say "stolen" — tax revenues.

Its Ministry of Health, for example, has been unable to pay its contractors for hospital food, equipment or medicine for three months, and is $22 million in debt. Now, with Israel hijacking an additional $50 million or so each month, the ministry will not be able to pay the salaries of its 13,000 employees. The same is true with the approximately 40,000 employees of the Ministry of Education.

In the Palestinian territories, 35% of residents between the ages of 20 and 24 were unemployed during the third quarter of 2005. About 43% live below the World Bank's poverty line, and 15% live in deep poverty — which means, according to the World Bank, that they are unable to meet subsistence needs.

By taking their meager — but undoubtedly their own — revenues, Israel does not punish Hamas or persuade it to change its positions. It simply gives the Palestinians another reason to regard Israel as an aggressive and repressive occupying power.http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0221-29.htm

Government ministers in the West are also not above the law. Neither of us can make any meaningful comment about ministers being locked up unless we were privy to *all* the facts, I'm sure you must agree. Otherwise court expenses could be reduced by deciding cases on public forums.:) Your terribly witty response unfortunately fails to address the substance of my point, which is that by imprisoning forty elected members of the Hamas government, Israel is wilfully sabotaging any chance of meaningful negotiation with those who might actually be able to inflence opinion in Gaza.

[Macky-Mac]

This situation has been brought about by those outside Gaza who have ignored the democratically expressed wishes of the people of Gaza and who have done their damnedest to undermine the Hamas government and make it impossible for them to govern. Forty elected Hamas representatives have been locked up by the Israelis. How can they possibly either act as a government or moderate the actions of their followers?

the same elections that put Hamas representatives into office also brought people from other parties into office and these are the same people that Hamas' gunmen have now turned on. The idea that you seem to be supporting, that the elected members of the opposition to Hamas must be jailed and surpressed in order to save "democracy" is nothing more than the usual claim that any totalitarian regime puts forward when it moves to crush its opposition.

It isn't only elected opposition politicians that Hamas is arresting and killing, but the Palestinian bureaucrats that facilitate programs such as the UN Food Aid program that provides food to something like 1/3 of Gazans. That's been halted as a result of the Hamas attacks.

[obeygiant]

Abbas Told Foreign Aid Embargo Will Be Lifted Once New Government Installed

RAMALLAH, West Bank — Embattled Mahmoud Abbas got a major boost in his increasingly bellicose showdown with Hamas on Saturday, with a U.S. diplomat saying he expects a crippling 15-month-old foreign aid embargo to be lifted once the Palestinian president appoints an emergency government without the Islamic militants.

The new Cabinet, to be headed by internationally respected economist Salam Fayyad, is to be sworn in Sunday, just three days after Hamas seized control of Gaza and Abbas dismantled the Hamas-Fatah coalition government in response.

In Gaza, panicked residents lined up at bakeries to stock up on bread, fearing growing shortages of food, fuel and other staples as the crossings of the fenced-in strip with Israel and Egypt remained closed. Hundreds of other Gazans rushed to the border crossing with Israel to try to escape Hamas rule, but found gates locked. Israeli troops briefly fired warning shots.

Senior officials of Abbas' Fatah movement, who had fled Gaza, started reaching the West Bank. The head of Palestine TV said he had crawled for several hundred meters to evade gunfire at the Gaza-Israel crossing before making it to safetyuh oh, fox news ("http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,283275,00.html)

Those pesky islamic militants seem to complicate things don't they?

[Macky-Mac]

No, actually, they did not. Both Hamas and Islamic Jihad boycotted the presidential election, which shared the distinction with that in Iraq of being a "democratic" election held under military occupation, with a turnout of only around 40%. ...

it seems even Hamas doesn't agree with you concerning Abbas being the legitimately elected president.

from a BBC report on friday;
"Hamas' exiled political chief, Khaled Meshaal, meanwhile said his movement will work with Mr Abbas.

"He is an elected president, and we will co-operate with him for the sake of national interest," he said.

[skunk]

the same elections that put Hamas representatives into office also brought people from other parties into office and these are the same people that Hamas' gunmen have now turned on. The idea that you seem to be supporting, that the elected members of the opposition to Hamas must be jailed and surpressed in order to save "democracy" is nothing more than the usual claim that any totalitarian regime puts forward when it moves to crush its opposition.Are you purposely misrepresenting what I said, or do you simply not understand? I have nowhere supported jailing or suppressing elected representatives: quite the opposite.

The US and the EU have sought to deny the Gazans that principle of self-determination which they have used in the past as a pretext for war, simply because the Palestinians did not vote the way they required them to, and now they are saying that in effect they will starve the Palestinians into submission by denying them aid until they reverse their vote. This is a travesty which the UN should be protesting about instead of conniving in.
it seems even Hamas doesn't agree with you concerning Abbas being the legitimately elected president. Again, you misrepresent my position. Nowhere have I said that Abbas was not "legitimately elected". I said that Hamas and Islamic Jihad boycotted the election.

I look forward to you dealing with what I am saying, as opposed to what I am not.

[Macky-Mac]

I have nowhere supported jailing or suppressing elected representatives: quite the opposite.


ah well, all's good then....it's just that the net effect of your posts seemed to suggest that you were supporting Hamas in their use of their private militias to get rid of their Palestinian opponents as part of a greater struggle against israel. It seemed that you were suggesting that Hamas are the only democratically elected representatives of the Palestinians and that all the rest are just puppets of outsiders, and thus it was perfectly reasonable for Hamas to get the others out of the way.


Again, you misrepresent my position. Nowhere have I said that Abbas was not "legitimately elected". I said that Hamas and Islamic Jihad boycotted the election.

well, it certainly seemed that you were suggesting to dogbone that these various issues you brought up meant that Abbas wasn't to be considered as having been elected president in an election that you thought was legitimate...... so I was pointing out that Hamas doesn't agree with you on that one......but if that wasn't your point, then I guess I got the wrong impression

[dogbone]

@Skunk,

Here's a direct question for you, remembering my earlier analogy about the civil war in the US, what principle is Hamas and Fatah, fighting over that is worth this much suffering to their people?


EDIT:

It seems that Gaza may split from the West Bank as a separate entity. This has some insidious implications. The first that comes to mind is the image of Islamic Fundamentalism as a cancer. For example if the Gaza became a hotbed of fundamentalism like Iran (who is Hamas' major sponsor) then Israel could form a peaceful two state solution with the West Bank only to find that there was still an organisation whose aim was the elimination of Israel. Nothing would change.

The current events indicate why the the rest of the world, bar Iran and it's satellites, refuse to deal with a terrorist government. And I think capturing and murdering your fellow cabinet ministers, does qualify them as a terrorist government.

[skunk]

what principle is Hamas and Fatah, fighting over that is worth this much suffering to their people?Presumably in Hamas' case, the principle that those who have been elected in free elections should be allowed to govern. Is this not a principle you would find worth fighting for?
The current events indicate why the the rest of the world, bar Iran and it's satellites, refuse to deal with a terrorist government. And I think capturing and murdering your fellow cabinet ministers, does qualify them as a terrorist government.Which fellow cabinet ministers have been murdered? Haniyah, the Hamas PM, has expressed a willingness to keep an indefinite truce with Israel if they return to the 1967 borders as required by the UN. The people calling them terrorists are those who have imprisoned their elected representatives and are withholding their tax receipts, thereby making it impossible for them to govern and causing huge difficulties to the Palestinian population. If you connive in abusing the English language in order to present a completely false image of the situation, you will not help anyone to understand anything.

[dogbone]

Presumably in Hamas' case, the principle that those who have been elected in free elections should be allowed to govern.

Unless of course it's the elected President.

In other words the principle as you put it, appears to be that democracy is like a pick a choose bag.

[skunk]

Unless of course it's the elected President.

In other words the principle as you put it, appears to be that democracy is like a pick a choose bag.I think you'll find that the president is elected to preside, the government to govern. Making pronouncements about picking and choosing while being so partisan in your analysis is more than a little ironic. I notice you haven't answered my question: which cabinet ministers has Hamas murdered? Or was this just a little invented decoration?

[dogbone]

@skunk,

If you want to talk about irony, then my civil war analogy would be applied in this situation, where Hamas is the enslaver. Hamas' does not care one whit about keeping the Palestinians in a state of constant war, until their aim of a single Islamic state is achieved. In other words permanent war.

Fatah are in principle against this, a worthy cause to fight for.

[skunk]

@skunk,

If you want to talk about irony, then my civil war analogy would be applied in this situation, where Hamas is the enslaver. Hamas' does not care one whit about keeping the Palestinians in a state of constant war, until their aim of a single Islamic state is achieved. In other words permanent war.

Fatah are in principle against this, a worthy cause to fight for.I expect that in other circumstances you would decry this as appeasement. Fatah is utterly corrupted, the more so by their acquiescence to the terms by which the "Quartet" accept them.

[dogbone]

No one has come up with an alternative explanation for this horrific level of violence and bloodshed other than the basic political position of Hamas and Fatah, one want's a two state solution and the other wants a single Islamic Sharia state.

It's pretty damned obvious why Hamas couldn't give a rats about their people. Let them live in squalor, it breeds exactly the discontent that they thrive on, in order to manipulate these poor people. Couple that with relentless religious propaganda and there's not much hope for the Palestinians as long as Hamas are in charge.

Sort of makes Fatah's corruption pale in comparison.

[skunk]

No one has come up with an alternative explanation for this horrific level of violence and bloodshed other than the basic political position of Hamas and Fatah, one want's a two state solution and the other wants a single Islamic Sharia state.Ignore my posts if you wish, but don't tell me I have not come up with any explanation.

It's pretty damned obvious why Hamas couldn't give a rats about their people. Let them live in squalor, it breeds exactly the discontent that they thrive on, in order to manipulate these poor people. Couple that with relentless religious propaganda and there's not much hope for the Palestinians as long as Hamas are in charge.This is a ridiculous assertion, considering that the very reason Hamas won the election was by all accounts because of their social welfare efforts. You are making dishonest statements which flatly contradict the facts. Is that not the very definition of propaganda? Your prejudice is pretty damned obvious, that is all.

[solvs]

This is a ridiculous assertion, considering that the very reason Hamas won the election was by all accounts because of their social welfare efforts.

And because of the tough talk (and actions) coming from us and Israel. They threaten us, so we elect people who say they'll protect us (well, in 2002 and '04, not so much in '06). So they of course do the same thing. Hamas is seen as the anti-us (and very anti-Israel, which they really see as a threat) so why wouldn't they support them? I kinda don't blame them. This just goes back to the whole "reap what you sew" thing we're doing in Iraq as well with "the enemy of my enemy". See how well thats worked out:

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/wpnan/2007/wpnan070612.gif

[skunk]

I notice that dogbone does not have the good grace to admit he was making up his allegation that Hamas were "murdering Fatah ministers". After all, who needs facts when you have a baseless prejudice to reinforce?