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View Full Version : Pictures of SR MBP high CPU temp due to poor thermal paste application (56k ok)




chem
Jun 14, 2007, 11:43 AM
My concerns about the high running temp under full dual-core CPU load for the new SR MBPs ( http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=3737495 ) appear to be validated.

An owner of one of these machines opened it up, and found sloppy thermal paste application throughout the machine:
http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=4722630#4722630

He removed the old paste, and reapplied some of his own. His idle temps dropped by about 10C, and load temps dropped by about 15C.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1142/544386383_337feecde7_b.jpg (before)
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1281/544280522_aba5a3c267_b.jpg (after)

It appears that the rush to assemble and ship SR MBPs has led to poor build quality, which will ultimately affect the reliability and lifetime of the machine you buy from Apple. This is a really old problem, having previously been observed in Apple's notebooks. And supposedly fixed. But, it's back. Quality control in Shanghai needs some work.



PimpDaddy
Jun 14, 2007, 12:20 PM
My concerns about the high running temp under full dual-core CPU load for the new SR MBPs ( http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=3737495 ) appear to be validated.

An owner of one of these machines opened it up, and found sloppy thermal paste application throughout the machine:
http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=4722630#4722630

He removed the old paste, and reapplied some of his own. His idle temps dropped by about 10C, and load temps dropped by about 15C.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1142/544386383_337feecde7_b.jpg (before)
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1281/544280522_aba5a3c267_b.jpg (after)

It appears that the rush to assemble and ship SR MBPs has led to poor build quality, which will ultimately affect the reliability and lifetime of the machine you buy from Apple. This is a really old problem, having previously been observed in Apple's notebooks. And supposedly fixed. But, it's back. Quality control in Shanghai needs some work.

Daaamn. I really hope that I will NOT get a machine with this kind of "flaw"

dusanv
Jun 14, 2007, 12:51 PM
This sucks. Mine is reporting the exact same temperatures as yours before modification. So it voids the warranty? How many stickers did you have to remove?

Eidorian
Jun 14, 2007, 12:53 PM
Here we go again...

shieldyoureyes
Jun 14, 2007, 01:01 PM
This sucks because I have to buy a Macbook Pro within the next few weeks and I really don't want to have to deal with this. Hopefully if enough people complain...

chem
Jun 14, 2007, 01:02 PM
This sucks. Mine is reporting the exact same temperatures as yours before modification. So it voids the warranty? How many stickers did you have to remove?

To be clear; those are not my pictures or MBP. I was the original poster in the apple.com thread, and the investigator was a nice guy who responded. You could post in the apple.com thread that I linked and ask that person directly.

I have load tested a SR MBP in an Apple store and observed extremely high CPU temps (see my first link). I thought thermal paste may be the problem. Looks like that may be right.

dusanv
Jun 14, 2007, 01:09 PM
Oh, OK. I'm assuming yellow stickers he's referring to are for warranty purposes. How many did he have to remove and why couldn't he just put them back?

I'm wondering about another thing. It keeps reporting the bottom of the enclosure at 36 C (which is the normal body temperature) but it definitely feels a fair bit warmer than that (I'd say ~45). If anyone could take a measurement with one of those IR temperature sensors, it'd be great.

msharpmu
Jun 14, 2007, 01:13 PM
What are you using to read the temp?

Eidorian
Jun 14, 2007, 01:14 PM
What are you using to read the temp?http://www.islayer.com/index.php?op=item&id=7

mopppish
Jun 14, 2007, 01:22 PM
Geez.
The highest I've seen my MBP's CPU go is 76C after ripping several CDs into itunes using an external firewire CD drive (which removes the internal drive's bottleneck and gets average ripping speeds of 30-40X, sometimes higher!). And I also do pretty heavy duty audio work. itunes ripping with the external drive seems to be the most intensive thing I ask it to do.
These things are rated to run at much higher temps than that. Granted, opening up and meddling with the insides may net you around a 10C drop, but what's the benefit of the POSSIBILITY of a longer life for your laptop when
#1. a voided warranty is just as likely to shorten your laptop's life (when there's a real problem, Apple will no longer fix it!)
#2. most people with the know-how to open up a MBP and reapply thermal paste are fooling themselves if they think they'd be willing to put up with it's "outdated technology" over three years from now! :rolleyes: These are the same guys that scream "MEROM!" or "SANTA ROSA!" or "PENRYN!"
A cooler machine for your lap might be nice, but if you're asking it to do things that you know will make the temp soar, then what the hell are you doing with it on your lap anyway? :p

andiwm2003
Jun 14, 2007, 01:29 PM
Geez.
The highest I've seen my MBP's CPU go is 76C after ripping several CDs into itunes using an external firewire CD drive (which removes the internal drive's bottleneck and gets average ripping speeds of 30-40X, sometimes higher!). And I also do pretty heavy duty audio work. itunes ripping with the external drive seems to be the most intensive thing I ask it to do.
These things are rated to run at much higher temps than that. Granted, opening up and meddling with the insides may net you around a 10C drop, but what's the benefit of the POSSIBILITY of a longer life for your laptop when
#1. a voided warranty is just as likely to shorten your laptop's life (when there's a real problem, Apple will no longer fix it!)
#2. most people with the know-how to open up a MBP and reapply thermal paste are fooling themselves if they think they'd be willing to put up with it's "outdated technology" over three years from now! :rolleyes: These are the same guys that scream "MEROM!" or "SANTA ROSA!" or "PENRYN!"
A cooler machine for your lap might be nice, but if you're asking it to do things that you know will make the temp soar, then what the hell are you doing with it on your lap anyway? :p

i think you're missing the point.

i don't think they suggest we should fix our MBP's ourselves. I think the point is that apples manufacturing (or their contractor) is sloppy and if you wait a while before you buy the problem may go away because apple will apply the correct thermal paste amount.

chem
Jun 14, 2007, 01:37 PM
Yeah, you're paying over $2000 or $2500 for the machine. Opening it up voids your warranty. Therefore, demanding that something so simple yet so important such as thermal paste application be performed correctly is perfectly reasonable.

That extra 15-20C under load may lead to a kernel panic or hardware failure one day. When you're doing something you consider important.

Sopranino
Jun 14, 2007, 01:51 PM
My concerns about the high running temp under full dual-core CPU load for the new SR MBPs ( http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=3737495 ) appear to be validated.

An owner of one of these machines opened it up, and found sloppy thermal paste application throughout the machine:
http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=4722630#4722630

He removed the old paste, and reapplied some of his own. His idle temps dropped by about 10C, and load temps dropped by about 15C.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1142/544386383_337feecde7_b.jpg (before)
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1281/544280522_aba5a3c267_b.jpg (after)

It appears that the rush to assemble and ship SR MBPs has led to poor build quality, which will ultimately affect the reliability and lifetime of the machine you buy from Apple. This is a really old problem, having previously been observed in Apple's notebooks. And supposedly fixed. But, it's back. Quality control in Shanghai needs some work.

I've just read the posting at discussions.apple.com that is referred to above. I've copied a portion of that message here:

Well, my stock system used to idle around 45-54°C, for a system that's not doing much other then surfing the web; that's pretty hot >< and that's without the SMCfanControl software running.

Currently, it's kinda idle, with photoshop running in the background.., the temp is floating around 38-44°C mark. For experimental purpose the fans are still on the lowest setting (about 1998-2003RPM).

I'd would say there's definitely some improvement, though under heavy load it does peak around 60-65°C, which is a load more healthy than the average 78-90°C that other people seems to be getting. Setting the SMC software to 2200-3000RPM seems to keep the system much cooler, even under load, but I assume one would be sacrificing battery life for a cooler mac. Personally, I'd like my machine enjoy a longer life!

Although he is showing a modest drop in temperature after the mod he also says that he is running the fans as well. Unfortunately we don't know if the fans were running at the higher reported idle temperature, prior to the mod, or not. If they weren't then this test is flawed. I wonder if the individual could retest this mod with the fans turned off if the before mod test also had the fans not running.

Just an observation, and I'm by no means criticizing the work that the OP has done. Pulling apart a MBP and cleaning up the thermal paste application is no easy task.

Sopranino

chem
Jun 14, 2007, 02:07 PM
Although he is showing a modest drop in temperature after the mod he also says that he is running the fans as well. Unfortunately we don't know if the fans were running at the higher reported idle temperature, prior to the mod, or not. If they weren't then this test is flawed. I wonder if the individual could retest this mod with the fans turned off if the before mod test also had the fans not running.


Well, in the tester's post, he uses the phrase "still on the lowest setting (about 1998-2003RPM)". That implies that prior to his mod, the fans were on that setting. It also corresponds with what I observed about fan rpm testing a model in-store (stated in the same apple.com post) -- the Apple default appears to be to run the fans at 2000 rpm. Having the fans off during a load test would certainly be a no-no. I think he's saying that he has also used SMCFancontrol to increase fan rpm and look at CPU temp, independent of the thermal paste question.

Hope that helps.

zioxide
Jun 14, 2007, 02:25 PM
And this is why companies shouldn't be outsourcing all of their work to China to have little 7-year-olds applying thermal paste in order to save some money...

aquajet
Jun 14, 2007, 02:36 PM
People, disassebling your computer does not necessarily void your warranty. As long as you do it correctly and don't damage anything, there's nothing to worry about.

Sopranino
Jun 14, 2007, 03:12 PM
Well, in the tester's post, he uses the phrase "still on the lowest setting (about 1998-2003RPM)". That implies that prior to his mod, the fans were on that setting. It also corresponds with what I observed about fan rpm testing a model in-store (stated in the same apple.com post) -- the Apple default appears to be to run the fans at 2000 rpm. Having the fans off during a load test would certainly be a no-no. I think he's saying that he has also used SMCFancontrol to increase fan rpm and look at CPU temp, independent of the thermal paste question.

Hope that helps.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that he should run a load test with the fans off. What I was attempting to say (somewhat poorly) is that if the fans were off during idle, prior to the mod, then he should be making sure that the fans are off during the idle test after the mod.

I may be getting confused by the statement about the fans being on their lowest setting. Do I interpret that as the fans were running at their lowest setting during the idle portion of the test or was the fan settings still at their lowest but they were not running during the test?

Sopranino

chem
Jun 14, 2007, 03:36 PM
I may be getting confused by the statement about the fans being on their lowest setting. Do I interpret that as the fans were running at their lowest setting during the idle portion of the test or was the fan settings still at their lowest but they were not running during the test?

My understanding is that the fans were running at 2000 rpm the entire time. At idle, under full load, pre-mod, and post-mod. Then, after all that, the user raised the rpm using SMCFancontrol, because he wants his MBP to run with higher fan rpm. His "lowest setting" is the 2000 rpm, which is the default fan speed for the SR MBP. The SR MBP I tested in-store also had the fans running at 2000 rpm regardless of load.

shipdestroyer
Jun 14, 2007, 03:41 PM
If I remember correctly, the lower temps are because he forgot to reattach a sensor cable and the fans remained at 100% speed as a result.

jstad
Jun 14, 2007, 03:41 PM
People, disassebling your computer does not necessarily void your warranty. As long as you do it correctly and don't damage anything, there's nothing to worry about.

True most apple stores have no idea if something is tampered with when they see it in the store to replace it. So just dont be an idiot when you disassemble the thing. Kind of like my friend who wanted a new ipod and put his in the microwave while playing mp3's. :D

chem
Jun 14, 2007, 03:43 PM
If I remember correctly, the lower temps are because he forgot to reattach a sensor cable and the fans remained at 100% speed as a result.

Uh, source/evidence for this comment? There's nothing about that in the thread. At all. Maybe you're thinking of someone else's experiment, on a different notebook?

kingofkolt
Jun 14, 2007, 08:54 PM
Well, I've installed Vista and Battlefield 2 on my new MacBook Pro and it's frozen twice, and I'm pretty sure the problem is overheating. It was VERY hot underneath while I was playing but I didn't actually think it would crash. But it did. I don't know if it's a defect of the laptop or if I just had the settings on too high. But if I did, shouldn't it just take a performance hit, as opposed to staying at full speed and then just crashing when it overheats?

Sbrocket
Jun 14, 2007, 09:12 PM
People, disassebling your computer does not necessarily void your warranty. As long as you do it correctly and don't damage anything, there's nothing to worry about.

I'd be willing to bet that if its readily visible that you opened the computer, even to just look around, the Apple service person would say that you voided the warranty under Section 1.b.ii of the AppleCare Terms of Service. You can look it up if you want.

Edit: Actually, you don't even have to look it up.

(ii) Damage to the Covered Equipment caused by accident, abuse, neglect, misuse (including faulty installation, repair, or maintenance by anyone other than Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider), unauthorized modification, extreme environment (including extreme temperature or humidity), extreme physical or electrical stress or interference, fluctuation or surges of electrical power, lightning, static electricity, fire, acts of God or other external causes;

benlee
Jun 14, 2007, 09:16 PM
this is unrelated but what does (56k ok) mean? it's in the post title

Sbrocket
Jun 14, 2007, 09:20 PM
this is unrelated but what does (56k ok) mean? it's in the post title

The 56k refers to people with dialup modems.

mbp657
Jun 14, 2007, 09:20 PM
this is unrelated but what does (56k ok) mean? it's in the post title

that mean people with 56K connection can "safely" view the image without waiting for a long load time.

dimme
Jun 14, 2007, 09:21 PM
I have a MBP SR and no overheating issues. But looking at the before picture I think even a good pst job is going to look bad when you pull it apart. I think if someone suspects a problem they should take it to the manufacture for a repair.

Sopranino
Jun 14, 2007, 09:22 PM
My understanding is that the fans were running at 2000 rpm the entire time. At idle, under full load, pre-mod, and post-mod. Then, after all that, the user raised the rpm using SMCFancontrol, because he wants his MBP to run with higher fan rpm. His "lowest setting" is the 2000 rpm, which is the default fan speed for the SR MBP. The SR MBP I tested in-store also had the fans running at 2000 rpm regardless of load.

Thanks Chem I appreciate the clarification. Basically this means that the OP did achieve a measurable change to the temperature, quite impressive. This will be something to watch for in the new MBP as they are delivered.

Sopranino

chem
Jun 14, 2007, 09:28 PM
I have a MBP SR and no overheating issues. But looking at the before picture I think even a good pst job is going to look bad when you pull it apart. I think if someone suspects a problem they should take it to the manufacture for a repair.

Glad to hear you have no overheating issues. Could you install the istat widget and report back your CPU temp under full dual core load (perhaps by looping a few hi-res QT vids?)?

Re: the good thermal paste job looking bad when you pull it apart. Not really. I can speak from experience on this, having built literally dozens of PCs for home and lab. It only looks like crap (as in the pics) if you apply both too much, and then don't smooth it properly. I've seen this when replacing CPUs in existing machines (you often have to take off the heat sink first, in Athlon64 installs). There was way too much coming out the sides in those pics, and the remaining paste on the CPU was too uneven.

Lastly, agreed about taking it back to the manufacturer and complaining. Most people should not attempt to redo their own thermal paste job. This is Apple's job to fix.

dusanv
Jun 14, 2007, 10:18 PM
I'd be willing to bet that if its readily visible that you opened the computer, even to just look around, the Apple service person would say that you voided the warranty under Section 1.b.ii of the AppleCare Terms of Service.

They put all sorts of things in EULAs these days and something beeing in there doesn't mean it's legal or enforcable. That's not to say I have the time to bother with Apple in court over their terms of service.

dimme
Jun 14, 2007, 10:41 PM
[QUOTE=chem;3761417]Glad to hear you have no overheating issues. Could you install the istat widget and report back your CPU temp under full dual core load (perhaps by looping a few hi-res QT vids?)?

My temp reading is 55 to 60 running system load and 4 other apps CPU's pretty maxed out fans run about 2000 rpm

onejed1
Jun 15, 2007, 08:54 AM
Well, I've installed Vista and Battlefield 2 on my new MacBook Pro and it's frozen twice, and I'm pretty sure the problem is overheating. It was VERY hot underneath while I was playing but I didn't actually think it would crash. But it did. I don't know if it's a defect of the laptop or if I just had the settings on too high. But if I did, shouldn't it just take a performance hit, as opposed to staying at full speed and then just crashing when it overheats?

My MBP SR is running at the same temps on average that people are posting here, but I really don't think i'm having any problems with the heat. I did notice though, that CoD2 crashes soon after you load a level, but I'm pretty sure it's because of the video card drivers or so (seems that many apps dont support the card yet) because the soldiers' body textures don't even load up. I get a kernel panic about 10 seconds after the level loads. Again, i really don't think it's heat. In my case anyway.

Another app that doesn't seem to support the card yet is OmniDazzle from the Omni Group.

A little off topic, i know, but i don't think we should be attributing all the problems to heat just yet.

Animalk
Jun 15, 2007, 09:43 AM
I am very aware of Apple's extremely poor thermal paste application.

When I first got my MBP, it was running quite hot(65C just surfing the web). Well I am not taking my MBP apart untill warranty is over so and I couldn't afford not having it while they fixed it. So i toughed it out.

Low and behold, my patience pays off. Just like my warped screen that straightened itself out. My MBP now runst at 50C with Safari, itunes, MSN, Mail and a bunch of other applications open. It runs at 64C when i play World of Warcraft.

I would recommend waiting a little for the paste to settle for people not experiencing extreme heat on their machines like I had. Anything more then that would necessitate reapplication of thermal paste in my opinion. These machines are well designed and work like porsches when they are assembled and built properly. I have opened up a 1st gen MBP and several MB and the cooling design from an engineering point of view is 1st class.

eb3604
Jun 15, 2007, 10:01 AM
Every laptop my brothers parents or me have owned has had poor thermal paste application. Dells, compaq, Sony, IBM. It's across the board

o and if you want to do this lil diy mod. get some arctic silver5 and 91% rubbing alcohol. and some q tips.

I was just thinking. Pretty much all thermal paste has a curing time of 1-2 weeks around 200 hours. Yes I agree looking at the pictures, there is way to much paste on the chips, but give it some time. Temps may/should get better. Leave your mbp on during the day and turn it off at night.

aquajet
Jun 15, 2007, 10:34 AM
Edit: Actually, you don't even have to look it up.

Thanks for posting that. :)

Like I said, follow the take-apart directions and be careful. Also make sure you use the proper tools -- don't try to cheat with an incorrect size phillips screwdriver for example. And if you doubt yourself, don't do it!

kingofkolt
Jun 15, 2007, 10:45 AM
My MBP SR is running at the same temps on average that people are posting here, but I really don't think i'm having any problems with the heat. I did notice though, that CoD2 crashes soon after you load a level, but I'm pretty sure it's because of the video card drivers or so (seems that many apps dont support the card yet) because the soldiers' body textures don't even load up. I get a kernel panic about 10 seconds after the level loads. Again, i really don't think it's heat. In my case anyway.

Another app that doesn't seem to support the card yet is OmniDazzle from the Omni Group.

A little off topic, i know, but i don't think we should be attributing all the problems to heat just yet.

But Battlefield 2 worked just fine other than when it crashed. The textures loaded just fine (it looked fantastic, in fact. At one point I was playing with every single setting at its highest and it was smooth. But when I played online with other people, I had to turn down the settings a little). I'm pretty sure my computer crashed from the heat. Either way, it's been twice now that it's crashed and I am going to call AppleCare and find out what the heck is going on...

shiato storm
Jun 15, 2007, 10:45 AM
if you're asking it to do things that you know will make the temp soar, then what the hell are you doing with it on your lap anyway? :p

seeking alternative birth control methods?

e12a
Jun 15, 2007, 11:48 AM
if you want to see if you have this problem, there is no need to open the computer. Just look through the rear vents with a light and you will see thermal paste oozing out between the heatsinks.

if you see stuff oozing out, thats already way too much thermal paste.

chem
Jun 15, 2007, 01:02 PM
if you want to see if you have this problem, there is no need to open the computer. Just look through the rear vents with a light and you will see thermal paste oozing out between the heatsinks.

if you see stuff oozing out, thats already way too much thermal paste.

That's an interesting tip. I will have to check that in-store SR MBP and see if this tip works. Thanks!

kingofkolt
Jun 15, 2007, 01:05 PM
That's an interesting tip. I will have to check that in-store SR MBP and see if this tip works. Thanks!

*Pictures chem in an Apple store, crouched down with a keychain LED flashlight, peering into the back of a display MBP as sales reps watch, bewildered*

*Laughs hard* :D

whateverandever
Jun 15, 2007, 01:12 PM
Oh, OK. I'm assuming yellow stickers he's referring to are for warranty purposes. How many did he have to remove and why couldn't he just put them back?

I'm wondering about another thing. It keeps reporting the bottom of the enclosure at 36 C (which is the normal body temperature) but it definitely feels a fair bit warmer than that (I'd say ~45). If anyone could take a measurement with one of those IR temperature sensors, it'd be great.

It's yellow tape to hold down wires. It has nothing to do with the warranty.

There's probably 4 or 5 pieces of tape in there, if it's anything like the CD machines.

robvia
Jun 15, 2007, 02:54 PM
Great thread.

In the picture after the paste was applied, the person spread it evenly all over the chip. I've heard that putting a single dot in the center of the chip and letting it spread out is the better thing to do. The pressure from the heat sink makes the dot spread evenly in a circle.

What does everyone think of this?
Spread the paste all over the chip, or use the single dot method?

chem
Jun 15, 2007, 03:14 PM
What does everyone think of this?
Spread the paste all over the chip, or use the single dot method?

From my experience building desktop machines, I find that using a razor blade to create an extremely thin layer across the entire top of the CPU's heat spreader (top of the chip) works well. The safest procedure is simply to follow whatever instructions come with your thermal paste. Check the product's manual or website.

robvia
Jun 15, 2007, 03:31 PM
Someone replied to my question in another forum and posted this link.

http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions.htm

So it appears that applying a straight line, placing the heat sink, then turning it sink 2 degrees each way is the answer.

md63
Jun 15, 2007, 04:13 PM
What is the most relavent temperature? The CPU? What is considered a good temperature under light load conditions? My CPU is running at 47C with light load and fan RPM at 2000.

kingofkolt
Jun 15, 2007, 04:26 PM
What is the most relavent temperature? The CPU? What is considered a good temperature under light load conditions? Thanks,.

These are my questions exactly. I've pretty much been just looking at CPU A (which is now at 48C) and comparing my temperature to others' based on that. I don't know if this is the correct reading to be looking at. The GPU is a little warmer, and the Enclosure Bottom is usually considerably cooler.

chem
Jun 15, 2007, 04:47 PM
What is the most relavent temperature? The CPU? What is considered a good temperature under light load conditions? My CPU is running at 47C with light load and fan RPM at 2000.

You should look at the CPU temperature under full (100%) CPU load. After it's been at that load level for a few minutes. Easily accomplished by looping several hi-res quicktime videos. You can use the istat or istat pro dashboard widget to monitor this.

If this CPU temp is 80 degrees Celsius or above, something is wrong. The system may be working fine, but it should be running cooler.

Slen
Jun 17, 2007, 07:11 AM
I tried CPUtest (http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/23935/cputest) on my new MBP and got 90degress Celsius after just some minutes. That cant be good!
Should i contact apple so they can fix my thermal paste?

Erasmus
Jun 17, 2007, 07:22 AM
I tried CPUtest (http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/23935/cputest) on my new MBP and got 90degress Celsius after just some minutes. That cant be good!
Should i contact apple so they can fix my thermal paste?

Yowch!!! Yes, definitely. Get it fixed!
Although it probably won't damage the CPU, it will probably cause the CPU to lower its clock speed to try and cool down, therefore making your computer slower!

daneoni
Jun 17, 2007, 07:31 AM
Tried the CPU test on my C2D non SR MBP and temp never exceeded 87C before the fans kicked it.....lowering it to 74C max.

thehype31
Jun 17, 2007, 07:48 AM
Yowch!!! Yes, definitely. Get it fixed!
Although it probably won't damage the CPU, it will probably cause the CPU to lower its clock speed to try and cool down, therefore making your computer slower!

I just ran a test on my SR MPB, and the CPU temp went up into the 90's(C) after a few minutes, however the fans didnt ramp up until the CPU temp reached 93 degrees C. If the fans aren't coming on until the CPU is that hot, then it seems obvious that the CPU is perfectly capable of dealing with those kind of temperatures, right?

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 07:55 AM
And this is why companies shouldn't be outsourcing all of their work to China to have little 7-year-olds applying thermal paste in order to save some money...

Actually your completely wrong and your post demonstrates your absolute ignorance. A complete and comprehensive review was carried out on the Apple manufacturing compunds and they were found to be of very sound quality, facillities and employees were treated well. Contrary to your ignorance.... it is no sweat shop and they certainly do not employ 7 yr olds!

On to the thermal issues....what is peoples problem? since when is 60C hot?

There is resarch going on at the moment that i have access to that is looking at the relationship between temperature of components, use and their failure rate. It looks at the moment that the components that are running cooler or the ones running in extreme temps 95+ hae higher failure rates than those running 45-95. Google also produced a white paper with similar reulsts from the hard drive world.

dimme
Jun 17, 2007, 08:07 AM
It looks at the moment that the components that are running cooler or the ones running in extreme temps 95+ hae higher failure rates than those running 45-95. Google also produced a white paper with similar reulsts from the hard drive world.

So what is the normal and or safe operating temperature of macbooks Pros?

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 09:37 AM
So what is the normal and or safe operating temperature of macbooks Pros?

You quoted your answer!

chem
Jun 17, 2007, 12:08 PM
I just ran a test on my SR MPB, and the CPU temp went up into the 90's(C) after a few minutes, however the fans didnt ramp up until the CPU temp reached 93 degrees C. If the fans aren't coming on until the CPU is that hot, then it seems obvious that the CPU is perfectly capable of dealing with those kind of temperatures, right?

If you're at 93C, your CPU is only 7C away from automatic hardware shutdown in order to prevent permanent and immediate processor damage.

If your MBP had been properly designed AND assembled, it simply should not be running in the high 80s or 90s. Your desktop does not do that. Other laptops do not do that. It is most likely due to sloppy quality control + thermal paste application by Apple.

Take your MBP back and demand repair or replacement.


On to the thermal issues....what is peoples problem? since when is 60C hot?


If you read the rest of the thread, you'd see that the SR MBP CPUs are running, oh, about 50% higher than the 60C number here (when tested under full load, as they should be tested). If they ran at 60C, this thread would not be 3 pages long.

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 12:19 PM
If you read the rest of the thread, you'd see that the SR MBP CPUs are running, oh, about 50% higher than the 60C number here (when tested under full load, as they should be tested). If they ran at 60C, this thread would not be 3 pages long.

I read the thread..... my mbp is at 90C now encoding a video but you don't see me crying like a little girl. IF YOU read my post you would see its fine.

at the end of the day your sticking the latest greatest cpu and gpu in a mobile device into under 1" thick enclosure..... if its too hot for you go buy a desktop or a thicker laptop from another manufacturer.

Your temperatures are within spec..... go cry elsewhere or return your laptops and buy something else.

chem
Jun 17, 2007, 12:29 PM
I read the thread..... my mbp is at 90C now encoding a video but you don't see me crying like a little girl. IF YOU read my post you would see its fine.

I guess you shouldn't have set up that straw man about 60C then. I believe you that your MBP works. Defend Apple all you want -- I like their products too -- but running at 90C means that it's not working as their engineers had intended. I bet you have a crappy thermal paste job too. That will take time off the life of your system. It's hotter than any other laptop out there, and Apple should repair it. Enjoy!

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 12:30 PM
I believe you that it works. Defend Apple all you want -- I like their products too -- but running at 90C means that it's not working as their engineers had intended. I bet you have a crappy thermal paste job too. That will take time off the life of your system. It's hotter than any other laptop out there, and Apple should repair it. Enjoy!

This laptop coud be from any manufacturer and i will say the same thing! As for reading, your clearly incapable....the latest reseach shows that these temps DO NOT cause shortening of life!

EDIT: as a newbie here you need to learn to show your edits and stop making them when people are posting! I have already explained to you why these laptops are hotter than others....if you dont like it buy a brick from Dell and get the temps you want.

EDIT2: Apple like me will also say its within spec.....which it is.

chem
Jun 17, 2007, 12:38 PM
This laptop coud be from any manufacturer and i will say the same thing! As for reading your clearly incapable....the latest reseach shows that these temps DO NOT cause shortening of life!


I really don't care how high your postcount is; you've provided no documentation at all to support that these laptops are operating "within spec" or that about how the high temps aren't shortening the life of the product. Your vague references mean nothing.

I bet you defended Apple the last time there was a big outrage about thermal paste application and MB/MBP temperature. Yet, Apple responded to those problems. Because, the fact is, THIS IS A PROBLEM. 1" form factor or not, the CPU should not be hitting 90+ degrees C. Sorry. Keep defending, fanboy. Sometimes, even Apple gets it wrong.

taphil
Jun 17, 2007, 12:41 PM
I just ran a test on my SR MPB, and the CPU temp went up into the 90's(C) after a few minutes, however the fans didnt ramp up until the CPU temp reached 93 degrees C. If the fans aren't coming on until the CPU is that hot, then it seems obvious that the CPU is perfectly capable of dealing with those kind of temperatures, right?
Mine does the same thing too, the fans don't rev up until 90 C. However, that's only the CPU temp whereas the laptop itself doesn't feel extraordinarily hot compared to my CD MBP or C2D MBP which ramps up the fan at about 70 C. It actually is about as cool as the C2D, and much cooler than the CD. If anything is needed to improve the fan speed, it'll be thru software, either an update to OS X or a firmware update. I have noticed that the fans spin up more quickly under Windows Vista though.

Anyway, I don't think it's a problem. The computer doesn't shut down due to heat, nor does the speed throttle down. I'm not worrying about it.

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 12:51 PM
I really don't care how high your postcount is; you've provided no documentation at all to support that these laptops are operating "within spec" or that about how the high temps aren't shortening the life of the product. Your vague references mean nothing.

I bet you defended Apple the last time there was a big outrage about thermal paste application and MB/MBP temperature. Yet, Apple responded to those problems. Because, the fact is, THIS IS A PROBLEM. 1" form factor or not, the CPU should not be hitting 90+ degrees C. Sorry. Keep defending, fanboy. Sometimes, even Apple gets it wrong.

I cannot quote you references as it confidential research.....you see if you read my profile you will see i am a research engineer....i specialise in Condition Monitoring....do you know what that means? Sit comfortably let me explain.... It means every day of my life i experiment and research condition monitoring of all the little components that make up your little laptops. Therefore i can tell you your point is mute and crap. Sorry i cannot provide you with documentation.....i will post the thesis when it is finished!

Secondly i referred you to a google white paper on hard drives. If you are enept enough not to be able to use google to find it then sorry for you.

Regarding specifications:

http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sspec=sla43

upto 100C is within specification....though obviously it would be common sense to say that 99C is the limit....if like me your CPU is at 90C at 100% load your laptop is within spec. If its like that at idle then sure you have an issue.

By the way. Your new to this forum, bit of advice. Don't cry apple fan boy to people it doesn't go down well, you don't know me. I have been through 5 Rev A macbooks and pulled apple through the dirt on it. I brought in the papers/press and websites. I even had a call of the VP! So i am no apple fanboy and am happy to say they get things wrong....leopard is a prime example. Oh and that proves your point wrong about me defending them last time.

However i can tell you for a fact being heavily involved in the Macbook issues back in Rev A days Apple will tell you it is within spec.

kingofkolt
Jun 17, 2007, 03:12 PM
I have noticed that the fans spin up more quickly under Windows Vista though.

That's weird... For me, Vista seems to take longer to turn up the fans. And the computer always feels hotter overall when I'm running Vista, too. Like, I'll just be using Firefox or something, and it gets very hot, both underneath in back, and between the keyboard and the screen where there's a strip of metal. It gets hot to the point where it almost hurts to touch it for any period of time. Also, as I mentioned earlier, my computer has frozen (now 3 times) when I was playing Battlefield 2 on Vista.

Right now I'm running CPU Test. My settings are: Test type: Big, Repetitions: 1000, Instances: 2 (for dual-core). I'm monitoring my CPU temp on the iStat Pro widget. And at first, it started heating up fast and the fans weren't even kicking in. Then it reached about 93C and the fans really started up then (they were around 2000-2500 rpm before that). It reached 94C at one point and then started to cool off. Right now, it's at 79C. It was staying at about 83C consistently for a while a few minutes ago. I don't have it on a cooling tray or anything, it's just flat on my desk. What do you guys think? Does that sound like a faulty laptop to you?

EDIT: What's weird is, when I felt underneath my computer just now, it still didn't feel as hot as it did when I played Battlefield 2 on Vista. Of course, the CPU temp has been reduced to around 80C by the fans so it's not still at 94C, but still... :eek:

4np
Jun 17, 2007, 03:13 PM
So i am no apple fanboy and am happy to say they get things wrong....leopard is a prime example.

I am actually quite dissapointed by the lack of improvements in Leopard. I would have expected some more interesting secret features but as far as I'm concerned it's a minor upgrade from Tiger...

Probably they have put too much time and resources in developing the stripped down OS X for mobile devices (like the Apple TV and the iPhone). While this mini OS X is nice they should have put the same effort in Leopard development.

chem
Jun 17, 2007, 03:30 PM
more silly blathering

1. Your 'research' credentials mean nothing here. You don't work for Apple, and you can't even spell "inept."

2. A widely circulated Google paper on hard drives has nothing to do with CPU temperature in MacBook Pros.

3. I had previously mentioned that the CPU would run until 100C, at which point it goes into automatic hardware shutdown. That is not the operating temperature for which the MBP is designed. If you look at the data from some people with apparently decent paste jobs, or the person from the original post who reapplied his paste, CPU temperature under load should be near 70-75C, tops. Temperatures of 90C or higher indicate a problem. Apple engineers design the cooling system for the MBP, and you can bet your bank they didn't intend on the CPU being at 90-95C under load.

EDIT: kingofkolt, if your CPU gets up to 93-94C before the fans bring it down to 79-80C, I wouldn't want to own your laptop. I bet you can open it up and discover a crappy thermal paste job.

kingofkolt
Jun 17, 2007, 03:36 PM
If you look at the data from some people with apparently decent paste jobs, or the person from the original post who reapplied his paste, CPU temperature under load should be near 70-75C, tops. Temperatures of 90C or higher indicate a problem. Why you can't seem to get that through your skull is beyond comprehension. Apple engineers design the cooling system for the MBP, and you can bet your bank they didn't intend on the CPU being at 90-95C under load.

Do you think it should never reach 90-95C, or never stay at that temperature? As I said, my computer reached 94, but it quickly went down once the fans kicked in. I'm running CPU Test and the CPU usage says 96%, and the temperature 78C. Do you think that's abnormal? (You said 70-75C under load, but do you mean under 96% load, or around 50% load, as a game might use?)

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 03:43 PM
1. Your 'research' credentials mean nothing here. You don't work for Apple, and you can't even spell "inept."

No but i do work for relevant people to the contents of this thread


2. A widely circulated Google paper on hard drives has nothing to do with CPU temperature in MacBook Pros.

WRONG. A hard drive is a component of a PC/laptop as is a capacitor, CPU, GPU etc etc. Again research a colleague is doing is based directly on the google work and confirms those results on components such as CPUs and GPUs hence a CPU running at 90C is not having its life shortened as you so vermontly swear!


3. I had previously mentioned that the CPU would run until 100C, at which point it goes into automatic hardware shutdown. That is not the operating temperature for which the MBP is designed. If you look at the data from some people with apparently decent paste jobs, or the person from the original post who reapplied his paste, CPU temperature under load should be near 70-75C, tops. Temperatures of 90C or higher indicate a problem. Why you can't seem to get that through your skull is beyond comprehension. Apple engineers design the cooling system for the MBP, and you can bet your bank they didn't intend on the CPU being at 90-95C under load.

No where in this thread has anyone posted that their MBP has run up to 100C and shudown so your point is not valid. I have not once said there is not a poor paste job, infact i believe there is, machines do this task in a factory, **** happens. Apple engineers will have recieved these machines from the producion line months before release ad apple will test hundreds in their labs prior to release. There is nothing wrong with a MBP running at 90C under prolonged 100% load.

I can't get it through my supposedly thick skull becasue i do this for a living i know there is nothing wrong....aparently you just troll forums for a living slating apple and posting about macbooks you dont appear to own.

chem
Jun 17, 2007, 03:54 PM
A hard drive is a component of a PC/laptop as is a capacitor, CPU, GPU etc etc. Again research a colleague is doing is based directly on the google work and confirms those results on components such as CPUs and GPUs hence a CPU running at 90C is not having its life shortened as you so vermontly swear!

Okay, well, research a colleague of mine is doing says your colleague is wrong. What a great way to conduct an argument! Unsubstantiated claims to mysterious research! A hard drive is very different from a CPU, sorry.


I have not once said there is not a poor paste job, infact i believe there is, machines do this task in a factory, **** happens. ... There is nothing wrong with a MBP running at 90C under prolonged 100% load.


I'm glad we agree that there are poor paste jobs out there. Apple should fix the problem. That's the point of this thread. As for the 90C comment, you're still wrong. Further, I imagine the thermal paste application is done by hand. Sloppy, inexpensive labor. Poor quality control.

Does this not bring back memories for people?
http://home.sc.rr.com/mixedbag/MBP/Photos.html

This is an old problem. It was supposedly fixed. It's back.

EDIT: by the way, "engineer", if you actually read that google paper (I have), it has no data on hard drives for temperatures above 50C. It's still totally irrelevant to this discussion.
http://209.85.163.132/papers/disk_failures.pdf

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 04:02 PM
Okay, well, research a colleague of mine is doing says your colleague is wrong. What a great way to conduct an argument! Unsubstantiated claims to mysterious research! A hard drive is very different from a CPU, sorry.

Oh yes must be wrong because it doesn't agree with you :rolleyes:

Funny as all the data appears to prove he is correct. It also backs up the google data. Will let you live in your own little fantasy world, all you have done is provide a few members with some entertainment.

Oh and if you did anything meanigful in life except trolling then you would probably appreciate NDA's and confidentiality agreements.... :rolleyes:

Apple should fix the problem.

Agreed

As for the 90C comment, you're still wrong.

No i just don't agree with you. I have far more years experiance in this field and know far more people in industry to know what i am saying is correct. Again if you want to live in your bubble so be it.

Further, I imagine the thermal paste application is done by hand. Sloppy, inexpensive labor. Poor quality control.

WRONG. It is applied by a machine. Has nothing to do with the labour but agreed better QC is needed.

Shadow
Jun 17, 2007, 04:08 PM
There is nothing wrong with a MBP running at 90C under prolonged 100% load.

While it may be uncomfortable if its on your lap (although Apple say to not use MB/MBPs on your lap-I'm running my MacBook at 100% on my desk now); there is technically nothing wrong with a 90C CPU at 100%. At 100% its not gonna get any hotter, and 90C is within specification. And besides, the CPU has a temp. diode in which shuts down the machine if it gets too hot.

rev316
Jun 17, 2007, 04:33 PM
Unless these computers start having negative drawbacks (performance) from running that hot; I wouldn't spend to much time ranting about Apple's MBP heat issues.

chem
Jun 17, 2007, 04:34 PM
It should be noted that according to Intel's own specs, the CPU temp should be below 50 degrees C or 35C in order to "sleep", or "deep sleep", respectively. A sufficiently crappy thermal paste application could prevent your CPU from accessing its power saving "deep sleep" feature.

Yet another reason the target temperature set by Apple for the CPU of the MacBook Pro is an important quantity, apart from the maximum possible operating temperature before thermal shutdown as defined by Intel.

http://download.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/31674502.pdf

Proper MBP paste jobs see CPUs under load operating near 70C. That would seem to be Apple's design. In my opinion, anything else is defective.

quiqueck
Jun 17, 2007, 04:41 PM
Just ran two 1080p HD Trailers on my SR MBP, and the CPU Temp went up to 95°C, with Fans spinning at 2800rpm. Then they started to spin up to 6000rpm, and the temperature was stable at 81°C.

Btw. I was running the MBP with the power cord connected to it.

Edit:
When stopping QT for a while, and starting the two movies again, after the CPU temp did get lower, the fans immediately started spinning with 6000rpm. So that initial delay mght be to prevent fan on/off behaviour?

Edit:
The room temperature was 27°C

applehero
Jun 17, 2007, 04:48 PM
1. CPU temperature under load should be near 70-75C, tops.

I find it interesting that this information is based on a study that came out in 1999.

Temperatures vary by processor and type of hardware. This is an interesting read...

http://users.erols.com/chare/elec.htm

From my experiences, just about everything with a circuit runs on the higher side of normal, there are too may factors and environmental differences to determine that running 90c means there's a problem. I find it very hard to believe that you'll be running between 70-75c most of the time, unless your just watching your screen saver all day. Anyone who actually uses their MBP for something productive for any extended period of time (meaning more than an hour) is going to notice it is heating up, that's perfectly normal. Now if you see smoke coming out of the air vents, yeah, you have a problem, but don't go running up the red flag just cause your laptop feels a little warm in your lap.

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 04:52 PM
It should be noted that according to Intel's own specs, the CPU temp should be below 50 degrees C or 35C in order to "sleep", or "deep sleep", respectively.

Please quote page references.


The document does however quote a temp i forgot to earlier and that is the damage temp of 125C..... so even if you macbook did run to 99C it would not experiance damage and according to research no significance in life span....though that is what i have been trying to say all along :rolleyes:

chem
Jun 17, 2007, 04:52 PM
I find it interesting that this information is based on a study that came out in 1999.

huh? Who's talking about a 1999 study of CPU temps?


don't go running up the red flag just cause your laptop feels a little warm in your lap.

Nobody's doing that. If you read the thread, compare reports of good paste jobs (and specifically the links in the original post), to things like the previous post (95C while playing video, which forces an emergency fan kick up to 6000 rpm)... you may be able to figure out why this thread is 4 pages long.

Please quote page references.


pages 75-76 in the pdf I linked, look it up. After all your posts you haven't given any evidence in support. I give Intel .pdf's and experimental reports from people who've changed their paste jobs, pictures of obviously horrible paste jobs from past and present. It would be so nice if people didn't feel compelled to defend Apple.

applehero
Jun 17, 2007, 04:56 PM
It should be noted that according to Intel's own specs, the CPU temp should be below 50 degrees C or 35C in order to "sleep", or "deep sleep", respectively. A sufficiently crappy thermal paste application could prevent your CPU from accessing its power saving "deep sleep" feature.

Yet another reason the target temperature set by Apple for the CPU of the MacBook Pro is an important quantity, apart from the maximum possible operating temperature before thermal shutdown as defined by Intel.

http://download.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/31674502.pdf

Proper MBP paste jobs see CPUs under load operating near 70C. That would seem to be Apple's design. In my opinion, anything else is defective.

Did you even read the document, especially the parts where the type is smaller than everything else? It says all over the place about not being 100% tested, temp varying between 50-100c, based on specific design....

In a perfect, controlled environment I'm sure you get the 70-75c temps, but in the real world, they're going to be higher.

Shadow
Jun 17, 2007, 04:57 PM
Basically, if its under 100C, its fine. Just dont use it on your lap :P

My MacBook runs at around 70C, and thats fine.

chem
Jun 17, 2007, 05:00 PM
Did you even read the document, especially the parts where the type is smaller than everything else?


Yes. Read what I said about the sleep / deep sleep modes.

EDIT: if you're having trouble being convinced, please go back and look at the original pictures of poor thermal paste application. There isn't much room for argument.

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 05:02 PM
pages 75-76 in the pdf I linked, look it up. After all your posts you haven't given any evidence in support. I give Intel .pdf's and experimental reports from people who've changed their paste jobs, pictures of obviously horrible paste jobs from past and present. It would be so nice if people didn't feel compelled to defend Apple.

You need to learn to read for 2 reasons!

1. "Not 100% tested. These power specifications are determined by characterization of the processor currents
at higher temperatures and extrapolating the values for the temperature indicated."

- In response to your quoted temps

2. My posts have had an intel link in.... so your clearly not reading....

applehero
Jun 17, 2007, 05:05 PM
Basically, if its under 100C, its fine. Just dont use it on your lap :P

My MacBook runs at around 70C, and thats fine.

Well said.

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 05:06 PM
Basically, if its under 100C, its fine. Just dont use it on your lap :P

My MacBook runs at around 70C, and thats fine.

Yeah i agree with you and Apple Hero! WELL SAID!!!

chem
Jun 17, 2007, 05:09 PM
You need to learn to read for 2 reasons!

1. "Not 100% tested. These power specifications are determined by characterization of the processor currents
at higher temperatures and extrapolating the values for the temperature indicated."


Speaking of learning to read, that footnote (repeated many times in the text, cited as item 2 on page 75), refers to power specifications (wattage), not temperature. If you look at footnotes 7 and 8 on page 75-76, you see that sleep and deep sleep specify a max Tj (junction, or CPU, temperature) of 50 and 35 degrees C, respectively.

If you have a really crappy paste job, your CPU will not reach 35C, even when idle. Hence, it is a problem for Apple to fix.

Seriously people: have you ever built a system of your own? I have. Dozens. Has its thermal paste job ever looked like this?

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1142/544386383_337feecde7_b.jpg

Mine hasn't. Because I want things to work properly.

applehero
Jun 17, 2007, 05:10 PM
Yes. Read what I said about the sleep / deep sleep modes.

EDIT: if you're having trouble being convinced, please go back and look at the original pictures of poor thermal paste application. There isn't much room for argument.

Yes, and it's making me go to sleep/deep sleep. All you have provided are generic test results.

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 05:10 PM
So chem, you told me i was a fanboy and that this only exist with Apple laptops....

So how do you explain that fact that Dells, Sony's and Acers are all coming from the same factory and same production lines with the same staff?

To be honest i couldn't care less if we were talking Dell or Sony i would be saying the same thing. Think its about time the mods sorted this out.

applehero
Jun 17, 2007, 05:11 PM
Speaking of learning to read, that footnote (repeated many times in the text, cited as item 2 on page 75), refers to power specifications (wattage), not temperature. If you look at footnotes 7 and 8 on page 75-76, you see that sleep and deep sleep specify a max Tj (junction, or CPU, temperature) of 50 and 35 degrees C, respectively.

If you have a really crappy paste job, your CPU will not reach 35C, even when idle. Hence, it is a problem for Apple to fix.

Seriously people: have you ever built a system of your own? I have. Dozens. Has its thermal paste job ever looked like this?

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1142/544386383_337feecde7_b.jpg

Mine hasn't. Because I want things to work properly.

Well, since you have a picture it must be true.

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 05:12 PM
power specifications (wattage), not temperature.

Oh silly me! and here was me thinking that power usage/output was directly related to temperature! :rolleyes:

chem
Jun 17, 2007, 05:14 PM
So how do you explain that fact that Dells, Sony's and Acers are all coming from the same factory and same production lines with the same staff?


1. I am not sure of the truth of the statement that (these brands) "are all coming from the same factory and same production lines with the same staff". If you have any evidence of this, I would welcome it.

2. I have not seen any reports of any Santa Rosa based laptops, other than Apple's, running at 90 degrees C or higher under full CPU load. If you have any links to reports of this, I would welcome them.

Well, since you have a picture it must be true.

Does this post even have a point? Are you suggesting that I paid someone off on apple.com's support forums to fake a picture of poor thermal paste application? Do you think that's a good paste job? haha.

applehero
Jun 17, 2007, 05:21 PM
I think it's time we agree to disagree. There are several of us that are operating above 75c for periods of time and we're not having problems. I think it is safe to say that we are safe up to the 100c mark. Even running at 90c for an extended period of time (meaning a couple of hours) is still not hitting 100c and not in any danger. Let's move on and stop wasting time on this.

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 05:24 PM
I think it's time we agree to disagree. There are several of us that are operating above 75c for periods of time and we're not having problems. I think it is safe to say that we are safe up to the 100c mark. Even running at 90c for an extended period of time (meaning a couple of hours) is still not hitting 100c and not in any danger. Let's move on and stop wasting time on this.

I agree, there is no telling some people.

Shadow
Jun 17, 2007, 05:41 PM
I think it's time we agree to disagree. There are several of us that are operating above 75c for periods of time and we're not having problems. I think it is safe to say that we are safe up to the 100c mark. Even running at 90c for an extended period of time (meaning a couple of hours) is still not hitting 100c and not in any danger. Let's move on and stop wasting time on this.

100% agree. Learn to live with your hot laptop, and deal with it. That or get a desktop. Simple as that.

DaveTheGrey
Jun 17, 2007, 05:48 PM
basically i don't care how warm my cpu gets, but if it gets hotter than it would have to, the fans will turn faster and make a louder noise which i would really hate.

surfing, email: 40C
heavy load up to 55C
fans become noticeable at 47C
12" 1GHz PB

my dad will receive his mbp this week and i hope it won't get close to 100C :(

we'll see

DoFoT9
Jun 17, 2007, 06:07 PM
1. Your 'research' credentials mean nothing here. You don't work for Apple, and you can't even spell "inept."

.

mate you do know that pointing out spelling mistakes is a suspendable offense!



If you have a really crappy paste job, your CPU will not reach 35C, even when idle. Hence, it is a problem for Apple to fix.

i believe we are talking about laptops here, or am i just a n00b and cannot tell the diff in mobos?? how many laptops would chill at 35 degrees when running idol?? not many

100% agree. Learn to live with your hot laptop, and deal with it. That or get a desktop. Simple as that.

that or move to windoze....

chem
Jun 17, 2007, 06:27 PM
that or move to windoze....

no joke. no other santa rosa laptop runs this hot. only the MBP.

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 06:29 PM
no joke. no other santa rosa laptop runs this hot. only the MBP.

No other santa rosa laptop with this power of CPU and GPU is 1" thin!

filman408
Jun 17, 2007, 06:34 PM
Question:
If you can see the paste thru the rear vents, is that a good or bad thing? Should the paste not be visible if it was applied correctly?
I pointed my flashlight thru the vents and can see [excess] paste on all three processing units. I dont see any "spilling over" from this vantage point.
Ona full load, it registers around 85C.

On the side, what is the third processor unit for? I know CPU, GPU, ???
Refering to this image: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1142/544386383_337feecde7_b.jpg

Thanks

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 06:38 PM
Question:
If you can see the paste thru the rear vents, is that a good or bad thing? Should the paste not be visible if it was applied correctly?
I pointed my flashlight thru the vents and can see [excess] paste on all three processing units. I dont see any "spilling over" from this vantage point.
Ona full load, it registers around 85C.

On the side, what is the third processor unit for? I know CPU, GPU, ???
Refering to this image: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1142/544386383_337feecde7_b.jpg

Thanks

No that doesnt sound right although your temp at full load is ok.

I am guessing the third chip is the chipset.... northbridge chip.

DoFoT9
Jun 17, 2007, 06:39 PM
no joke. no other santa rosa laptop runs this hot. only the MBP.

yea thats if your using some SR 1.8ghz thingo. that has ssoooo much power. </sarcasm>

chem
Jun 17, 2007, 06:46 PM
yea thats if your using some SR 1.8ghz thingo. that has ssoooo much power. </sarcasm>

Or the Thinkpad T61... which can have the same CPU as the MBP, runs at less than 70C under load, and is only 1.1" thick. The MBP has other advantages (video, Mac OS X), but c'mon, let's be fair: nothing but good things have been said about the T61's cooling system.

eenu
Jun 17, 2007, 06:48 PM
Or the Thinkpad T61... which can have the same CPU as the MBP, runs at less than 70C under load, and is only 1.1" thick. The MBP has other advantages (video, Mac OS X), but c'mon, let's be fair: nothing but good things have been said about the T61's cooling system.

Then buy it but as you say it doesn't have the gpu of the macbook pro

Erasmus
Jun 17, 2007, 06:52 PM
Grrargh!

What a shockingly stupid argument!

1) It is pretty clear that a CPU running at anywhere up to 100˚C isn't going to be damaged, or have its life shortened. It can take it, no problems.
2) If the heat isn't exiting as well as it should through the heat sink, then a large portion of it is obviously going somewhere else. A CPU running at 95˚C is not going to be good for other bits of the computer close by.
3) The computer may or may not drop to a lower clock speed to try and avoid getting any hotter, so your computer might not be running as fast as it should.
4) Take it to a bloody Apple Store, and get it checked out. If they are willing to fix it, which I think they quite likely will, then that's the end of that!

qksilver
Jun 17, 2007, 10:17 PM
let's get back on topic. If the thermal paste is not on properly as observed through looking through the rear vents will apple fix it????

DoFoT9
Jun 17, 2007, 10:18 PM
3) The computer may or may not drop to a lower clock speed to try and avoid getting any hotter, so your computer might not be running as fast as it should.
d of that!

all mac laptops do this. they change their clock frequencies to suit the requirements.

chem
Jun 18, 2007, 01:02 AM
There are additional pictures up in the apple.com link from my original post. UltraNeo opened up another MBP (scroll up from that link to see new pics, which are directly in the thread). Same thermal paste problem.

mavere
Jun 18, 2007, 04:04 AM
With some undervolting in Windows (can you do the same in OSX?) I get 68C with both cores at 100% load after 10 minutes. And this is on a wood table and with a ~75F room temperature.

Not 95C like some of you, thank god, but still quite a bit higher than the competition, though the 1 inch thickness more than makes up for it. Still the bottom gets uncomfortably warm sometimes, so I'll eventually crack this thing open to look at the thermal paste.

otispunkmeyer
Jun 18, 2007, 04:41 AM
wow three of the most heat producing chips... the CPU, northbridge and GPU are pretty much side by side. concentrated heat source FTL.

id say thats not a terribly good design.

i like the way dell do it in their XPS1710, by placing the two biggest heat sources, the CPU and GPU basically at opposite ends of the machine with their own HSF so that they cant affect each other heat wise.

i know apple have a space premium to work around though but entrusting heat removal from all 3 major chips to just 2 heat pipes sound like a recipe for a hot lap. i mean if the CPU gets hot when its crunchin video files, then by no fault of its own the GPU and NB are gonna get hot as well...just from radiating heat. and if your playing games well...

i see they epoxied the chips the PCB, good thing too, we dont want whats happening to xbox360s where they get so hot the PCB warps and the BGA mounting points disconnect from the board.

the temperatures arent something to be overly concerned about, i mean GPU's regularly run and can handle 80-90 degrees, so id imagine CPU's can too. but when the chassis of the machine is made from aluminium and inherently acts like a big heatsink, its not desirable...especially on your lap.

i havent tested mine really yet, ive had it on my lap a few times doing stuff in parallels mainly and the CPU goes up to about50 and the gpu 65. it can get uncomfortable at times i must admit.

mayoko185
Jun 18, 2007, 06:27 AM
Stupid question here... how did ya guys get your CPU maxed? I tried to loop QT trailers off apples site but the most I got was play 4 videos at once before QT crashed (and istat said the cpu was only at 75% at that point..) is there a better way to stress the CPU? like a program prime95 (a windows stress program) for mac?

EDIT: I looked in the heat vent and I can see all thee chips, however I dont see any extra thmeral paste. Its just where the chips are.

DoFoT9
Jun 18, 2007, 06:30 AM
Stupid question here... how did ya guys get your CPU maxed? I tried to loop QT trailers off apples site but the most I got was play 4 videos at once before QT crashed (and istat said the cpu was only at 75% at that point..) is there a better way to stress the CPU? like a program prime95 (a windows stress program) for mac?

just run seti@home (boinc) or something for a night or 2 lol. thatl fix him right up!

eenu
Jun 18, 2007, 06:40 AM
In terminal:

To max out userspace CPU time
yes > /dev/null

To max out kernel CPU time
cat /dev/zero > /dev/null

If you run the appropriate commnad twice it will load both cores....once will do a single core.

mayoko185
Jun 18, 2007, 06:55 AM
thanks eenu.

OK I guess I got a good thermal paste job, maxed out at now for a few min and it went up to almost 80C then the fans kicked in full blast and now im holding steady between 69-71C still going at 100% BTW my nermal web serfing/idle temps are around 40-55C depending on what im doing. I took a brighter flashlight to my back port and I dont see any excessive paste at all. and im doing this with the MBP laying on my bed next to me :D not the best place I know but more realistic. Also like to add that iv noticed when im running of battary power the temps drop down in the mid-high 30C range.

uicandrew
Jun 18, 2007, 07:53 AM
is everyone just using istat pro to find out that cpu temp/fan speed?

without any mods, my 17" SR (hi-res) is 44 degrees for "CPU A" and 54 degrees for "GPU Diode" and both fans are at 2000rpm

only mail and safari is open.

should i consider myself lucky, or would it be worth it to get the thermal paste redone? (ie - what should i expect for a laptop at idle?)

eenu
Jun 18, 2007, 08:02 AM
is everyone just using istat pro to find out that cpu temp/fan speed?

without any mods, my 17" SR (hi-res) is 44 degrees for "CPU A" and 54 degrees for "GPU Diode" and both fans are at 2000rpm

only mail and safari is open.

should i consider myself lucky, or would it be worth it to get the thermal paste redone? (ie - what should i expect for a laptop at idle?)

its fine! its panic mongorers like chem you need to ignore.

quiqueck
Jun 18, 2007, 08:22 AM
My full load temp is above 90°C for about 5sec, and then constant at about 80°C. Need to worry?

I mean, since we do not have any apple store in germany, fixing/replacing it would probably mean, sending the MBP away for a couple of weeks.

Something I do not look forward to.

kusanagi
Jun 18, 2007, 08:26 AM
its fine! its panic mongorers like chem you need to ignore.


Eenu,

I've been following this thread quite a bit, and being a SR MBP owner i must agree with what you are saying.. these items are now designed with quite a bit of threshold, not to mention design delta/T limits well above any normal running conditions.. and wherever it exceeds, there's always safety cutoff measures.

From personal experience with my SRMBP i've found that temps were going well past 90c when on full load encoding or rendering images.. however a simple fix.. get a laptop stand with active fans! Seriously, my temps at load are down and using the notebook feels more anatomically correct. Not to mention running lower running temps (around 75-80 on load). They're cheap (round $20AUD here) and they also place the keyboard in a better position for typing.

chem
Jun 18, 2007, 09:23 AM
its fine! its panic mongorers like chem you need to ignore.

Or you could tell that person how to properly load test their machine (looping multiple hi-res videos, running Prime95, etc).

Throughout this thread, we see many examples of people whose MBP runs near 70-80C under full load, and others' MBPs which run at 90+ degrees C under full load. We also have pictures of poor thermal paste jobs, and stories of how redoing the paste job caused temps to drop 10-15C. You can also spend extra $$$ on a nice little stand with LED-lit external fans to get the same effect, of course.

Put 2+2 together. eenu says they equal 5. I say they equal 4. If you're hitting 90C or higher, your MBP's paste job was a sloppy one. The MBP is not operating as Apple engineers had intended and Apple should fix it. You paid over $2000 for a laptop: demand proper assembly.

eenu
Jun 18, 2007, 09:23 AM
Eenu,

I've been following this thread quite a bit, and being a SR MBP owner i must agree with what you are saying.. these items are now designed with quite a bit of threshold, not to mention design delta/T limits well above any normal running conditions.. and wherever it exceeds, there's always safety cutoff measures.

From personal experience with my SRMBP i've found that temps were going well past 90c when on full load encoding or rendering images.. however a simple fix.. get a laptop stand with active fans! Seriously, my temps at load are down and using the notebook feels more anatomically correct. Not to mention running lower running temps (around 75-80 on load). They're cheap (round $20AUD here) and they also place the keyboard in a better position for typing.

Thats a nice stand! What make is it? I'm looking for one like that for my desk and another for my knees (without fans :) ) for when i am in bed.

My full load temp is above 90C for about 5sec, and then constant at about 80C. Need to worry?

I mean, since we do not have any apple store in germany, fixing/replacing it would probably mean, sending the MBP away for a couple of weeks.

Something I do not look forward to.

Nope thats absolutely fine. Don't worry about it.

eenu
Jun 18, 2007, 09:25 AM
Or you could tell that person how to properly load test their machine (looping multiple hi-res videos, running Prime95, etc)

Post #108 tells people how to properly load their CPU

chem
Jun 18, 2007, 09:32 AM
Post #108 tells people how to properly load their CPU

...and does nothing for the GPU right next to it. Looping multiple hi-res videos is a better test as far as heat is concerned.

Animalk
Jun 18, 2007, 09:37 AM
My recommendations to all experiencing temps above 70C:
Thermal paste requires a certain amount of time of usage before optimal performance. My MBP was hitting 78C on full load when i got it. It now hits 68C.
It used to idle at 60C and now it idles at 50C.

Facts:
The CPU will function normally under 100C without any damage. Only extremely long periods of time (thousands of hours) under a temp close to 100C may diminish your processors life span. Your CPU will not fail unless it runs at temps higher then 125C. Apple does throttle the CPU depending on the ambient temperatures inside the laptop.

Suggestion:
If the laptop is too hot to work with because you absolutely need it on your laps or for whatever reason, it is your right to bring it in simply because it is not performing its intended task properly even if its within specification.

eenu
Jun 18, 2007, 09:38 AM
Suggestion:
If the laptop is too hot to work with because you absolutely need it on your laps or for whatever reason, it is your right to bring it in simply because it is not performing its intended task properly even if its within specification.

Be careful there as Apple will tell you to sod off if you say your using it on your knees

applehero
Jun 18, 2007, 09:41 AM
chem...

this is getting crazy! This is all about personal comfort with your machine. If hitting 90c periodically is too warm for your liking, then take it in and have someone look at it. When they tell you, nothing wrong, there designed to handle the heat, then what do you do....say they're lying and this is a massive conspiracy?!? LET IT GO!!! You've given your opinion, with overwhelming conviction, some will agree some will not.

mmccaskill
Jun 18, 2007, 09:59 AM
The MBP is not operating as Apple engineers had intended and Apple should fix it.
Sorry but please provide documentation from Apple specifying what they intended. Otherwise this is just your subjective opinion.

gnasher729
Jun 18, 2007, 10:00 AM
Basically, if its under 100C, its fine. Just dont use it on your lap :P

My MacBook runs at around 70C, and thats fine.

What someone needs to explain to me: Thermal paste doesn't cool the processor down, it just lets it move heat to other parts of the computer more easily. While I can understand that poor thermal paste = hot processor = bad, how would this affect the outside temperature?

chem
Jun 18, 2007, 10:00 AM
If hitting 90c periodically is too warm for your liking, then take it in and have someone look at it. When they tell you, nothing wrong, there designed to handle the heat, then what do you do....say they're lying and this is a massive conspiracy?!?

I ask them to open it up and look at the thermal paste job. If it looks like it was applied by a zoo monkey on ritalin, I ask for it to be fixed. I then enjoy the MBP running at the temperature I paid for. If it looks like it was applied as per instructions you would see on a third party thermal paste vendor's website, I shrug my shoulders and say "thanks for your time."

It's about standards, I guess. If I spend $2000+ on something (which comes with a warranty!), I expect proper assembly. Others may expect "good enough." It just irks me that some people believe Apple should be able to get away with this. To each their own.

eenu
Jun 18, 2007, 10:03 AM
What someone needs to explain to me: Thermal paste doesn't cool the processor down, it just lets it move heat to other parts of the computer more easily. While I can understand that poor thermal paste = hot processor = bad, how would this affect the outside temperature?

Errr because your CPU/GPU is in a 1" thin enclosure therefore heat is bound to be transmitted to the casing and hence why its hot on your knees


I then enjoy the MBP running at the temperature I paid for.

@CHEM, what temperature did you pay for? Sorry is it in the apple specs page for the mahines on the apple site? Sorry i was not aware laptops came with temp specs like hardware components:

2.4Ghz C2D
8600MGT
No higher than 70C at 100% load
160GB HDD
.........

:rolleyes:

gnasher729
Jun 18, 2007, 10:10 AM
Errr because your CPU/GPU is in a 1" thin enclosure therefore heat is bound to be transmitted to the casing and hence why its hot on your knees

But wouldn't better thermal paste move the temperature to the outside even better, meaning it gets hot outside but not so hot inside?

applehero
Jun 18, 2007, 10:20 AM
It's about standards, I guess. If I spend $2000+ on something (which comes with a warranty!), I expect proper assembly. Others may expect "good enough." It just irks me that some people believe Apple should be able to get away with this. To each their own.

I bet you're the kind of guy that goes to a restaurant, orders a cheeseburger, and has to send it back a dozen times because the cheese isn't properly centered on the burger, or there isn't an equal amount of condiments...

This is getting boring, if you're so concerned about quality, build your own!

czeluff
Jun 18, 2007, 10:21 AM
I ask them to open it up and look at the thermal paste job. If it looks like it was applied by a zoo monkey on ritalin, I ask for it to be fixed. I then enjoy the MBP running at the temperature I paid for. If it looks like it was applied as per instructions you would see on a third party thermal paste vendor's website, I shrug my shoulders and say "thanks for your time."

It's about standards, I guess. If I spend $2000+ on something (which comes with a warranty!), I expect proper assembly. Others may expect "good enough." It just irks me that some people believe Apple should be able to get away with this. To each their own.

lol you're the type of customer I hated when I worked in retail. This is the ENTIRE computer industry. Hell, we should start petitioning Apple to test EVERY laptop rather than 1 out of every 1000 that leaves the warehouse if we're going to these extremes in quality control.

You pay $2000 because the MBP is the best laptop on the market. 99% of people will never complain about heating issues. A company is not going to cater to the 1% that loves to gripe. That 1% is not worth spending lots more time producing the machines. They'd rather just give you a new notebook (ie. what they do when someone complains).

Other companies that come to mind with the same mentality: most car manufacturers, all pc manufacturers, Western Digital, Seagate, the list goes on and on. It's cheaper and easier to give new free components to the 1%. It's a built-in component the the capitalist market: maximizing your profits.

eenu
Jun 18, 2007, 10:22 AM
But wouldn't better thermal paste move the temperature to the outside even better, meaning it gets hot outside but not so hot inside?

In theory yes but given the enclosure is only 1" thick not really. Heat is alwas going to transmit well to a thin metal enclosure no matter how good the thermal paste. I think what you really mean is would it not transmit better to the heatsink.

Thermal paste is the interface between the chip and the heatsink. It is merely there to ensure good contact. Then the heat is removed from the heatsink via fans....

There is more than one issue here, i dont think the fans are really programmed correctly. They need to kick in earlier and run faster at higher temps. I've not seen the fans operating at a consistant level. For exapmple.

Last night i ran at 100% load 90C constant with fans at 4500RPM. Today word crashed and CPU went to 100% but before it even reached 60C my fans kicked in at 6000RPM. Hardly a consistant effort.

Chem is right that the paste jobs aint great and that doing a proper personal job will lower your temps a tad. The only issue is that his argument is mute in terms of there is no negative effect to the machine as has been said over and over, though he can't grasp. If you think it is an issue take it to apple. Through personal experiance they will tell you its in spec so good luck.

chem
Jun 18, 2007, 10:25 AM
This is getting boring, if you're so concerned about quality, build your own!

Heh, I build all my own desktops. Building your own laptop is a bit more tricky. Care to point me towards where I can purchase, in quantity (1) and at a reasonable price, all the components that go into a MBP or Thinkpad? Their case, their logic boards, their screens?

I would prefer to build my own. :)

eenu
Jun 18, 2007, 10:33 AM
Heh, I build all my own desktops. Building your own laptop is a bit more tricky. Care to point me towards where I can purchase, in quantity (1) and at a reasonable price, all the components that go into a MBP or Thinkpad? Their case, their logic boards, their screens?

I would prefer to build my own. :)

Nowhere could supply you because according to you the places these things are made are shoddy and crap. There would be no point you buying the cases since these clearly don't meet your temperature standards and well good luck designing a laptop that is as thin as a macbook with all its components since you think apple engineers do a crap job i'd love to see your effort.

applehero
Jun 18, 2007, 10:35 AM
I would think there would be a surplus of components available from all the returned units due to heat damage from bad thermal paste jobs, oh wait, they don't exist....

applehero
Jun 18, 2007, 10:37 AM
Nowhere could supply you because according to you the places these things are made are shoddy and crap. There would be no point you buying the cases since these clearly don't meet your temperature standards and well good luck designing a laptop that is as thin as a macbook with all its components since you think apple engineers do a crap job i'd love to see your effort.

Not to mention how much more it would cost in time, effort, replacement components from doing your own bad thermal paste jobs. Better off taking the chance on the professionals....at least they give you a warranty.

robrose20
Jun 18, 2007, 10:59 AM
My MBP runs about 50 C when doing normal operations, when I was converting a DVD to MPG (handbrake) file it ran between 72 to 76 degrees, when it was done it quickly dropped. Also I noticed the fan speed goes as high as 4000 rpm, and makes some noise (not that loud, but noticible.).

I have 3 years of applecare, if people complain enough maybe apple will fix the paste issue. Otherwise for most of what I do it seems to run within a reasonable temperature. I do not want to void the warrenty, if I notice it running hotter I will take it back and complain.

Overall I am really impressed with its performance. It is very fast, the display is amazing.

chem
Jun 18, 2007, 11:01 AM
you think apple engineers do a crap job

I never said this. I am glad we agree that:


Chem is right that the paste jobs aint great and that doing a proper personal job will lower your temps


Anyway,

Not to mention how much more it would cost in time, effort, replacement components from doing your own bad thermal paste jobs.

Applying thermal paste correctly is not rocket science. It just takes a little care. I'd prefer to have that right, instead of cooling a scorching hot MBP CPU with all the hot air blown by a fanboy. I kid, I kid...

chem
Jun 18, 2007, 11:02 AM
My MBP runs about 50 C when doing normal operations, when I was converting a DVD to MPG (handbrake) file it ran between 72 to 76 degrees, when it was done it quickly dropped. Also I noticed the fan speed goes as high as 4000 rpm, and makes some noise (not that loud, but noticible.).


This report sounds like a properly assembled MBP. Good to hear, and hopefully the norm. It's the discrepancy between reports like this, and reports where MBP CPUs are hitting 90+C, which started this whole investigation.

mmccaskill
Jun 18, 2007, 12:26 PM
This report sounds like a properly assembled MBP. Good to hear, and hopefully the norm. It's the discrepancy between reports like this, and reports where MBP CPUs are hitting 90+C, which started this whole investigation.
Again, please provide documentation from Apple that specifies what the acceptable and normal ranges are for temperature. Otherwise you are discussing your subjective opinion on the matter, which wastes people's time and possibly confuses other people.

ryan42
Jun 18, 2007, 12:34 PM
Someone replied to my question in another forum and posted this link.

http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions.htm

So it appears that applying a straight line, placing the heat sink, then turning it sink 2 degrees each way is the answer.

Actually go back and click on one of the exposed core links. The C2D in MBPs are exposed core and artic silver recommends just what our OP's link showed for that.

chem
Jun 18, 2007, 12:51 PM
Again, please provide documentation from Apple that specifies what the acceptable and normal ranges are for temperature.

It should suprise nobody that Apple has specifically not released information that says what should be the CPU core temp under load. If they released that information, many more people would be bringing back their MBPs for repair / replacement, which hurts Apple's bottom line. Corporations hide information which may cost them money.

Fortunately, many users are willing to use their critical thinking skills. If the only difference between two MBP's construction is that one has a good thermal paste job, and the other has a sloppy one, and then you see the only operating difference between the two is a 20C difference in CPU core temp... it stands to reason that the sloppy paste job is making the MBP run hotter than Apple intended.

Unless you think the company whose first engineer was Steve Wozniak, who put out the incredible original Macintosh, whose MacBook Pro blows away its competition in all other areas of design... actually intended to assemble their premier MBP line with sloppy thermal paste jobs, after all the bad press they received for this problem in previous MB/MBPs. That doesn't seem credible to me. It would be the day I stopped buying Apple products.

mmccaskill
Jun 18, 2007, 01:00 PM
It should suprise nobody that Apple has specifically not released information that says what should be the CPU core temp under load. If they released that information, many more people would be bringing back their MBPs for repair / replacement, which hurts Apple's bottom line. Corporations hide information which may cost them money.

Fortunately, many users are willing to use their critical thinking skills. If the only difference between two MBP's construction is that one has a good thermal paste job, and the other has a sloppy one, and then you see the only operating difference between the two is a 20C difference in CPU core temp... it stands to reason that the sloppy paste job is making the MBP run hotter than Apple intended.

Unless you think the company whose first engineer was Steve Wozniak, who put out the incredible original Macintosh, whose MacBook Pro blows away its competition in all other areas of design... actually intended to assemble their premier MBP line with sloppy thermal paste jobs, after all the bad press they received for this problem in previous MB/MBPs. That doesn't seem credible to me. It would be the day I stopped buying Apple products.
None of which validates anything you have said thus far. You are talking about nothing but your subjective opinion on how you think they intended the machines to run. Nothing more. Unless documentation is provided, nothing else that you say in this matter should be considered by anyone.

chem
Jun 18, 2007, 01:08 PM
Unless documentation is provided, nothing else that you say in this matter should be considered by anyone.

You're amusing. Any corporation would love to have you as a phone support rep. I suppose that yellow gradient in some SR MBP displays (another defect reported on these forums) is okay with you too. After all, Apple provides no documentation stating that all screens should have the same uniform display of color. heh.

If a can of tennis balls was flat and the balls didn't bounce, would you say the customer had no right to complain because degree of bounce was not a specified behaviour, may vary over time, and at any rate they had no documentation to back them up?

Critical thinking provides consumer protection.

eenu
Jun 18, 2007, 01:09 PM
It should suprise nobody that Apple has specifically not released information that says what should be the CPU core temp under load. If they released that information, many more people would be bringing back their MBPs for repair / replacement, which hurts Apple's bottom line. Corporations hide information which may cost them money.

No apple have withheld nothing. As Intel states the operating temp for the CPU is anything upto 100C where it auto shutsdown for protection. Damage does not occur until 125C.

That means the Chip can operate anywhere within those boundaries, the costraint that controls this factor is manufacturer design. Taking a desktop box with the MBP components it is going to run cooler than the MBP.

Therefore any manufacturer can run their machins at any temp between 0-99C and be within spec.

Fortunately, many users are willing to use their critical thinking skills. If the only difference between two MBP's construction is that one has a good thermal paste job, and the other has a sloppy one, and then you see the only operating difference between the two is a 20C difference in CPU core temp... it stands to reason that the sloppy paste job is making the MBP run hotter than Apple intended.

As a qualified engineer let me explain manufacturing tolerances to you. When we design equipment everything has a tolerance be it cut panel components or the amount of glue used. This is mainly for one of two reasons, firstly there is bound to be minute variations on tooling and manufacturing. The second is cost cutting. Why would any manufctuerer want to place too much thermal paste on? It costs money thats why manufatuers use machines with measured 'doses' to apply things such as paste and glue. The only variance for apple and other manufactuers is the way the components is placed on top of the paste. I have no doubt that the same paste is being used on all these machines where the variance in temp is down to the mating of the sinks on the chips. With machines being pulled from the production line as well as hundreds of test machines prior to release there is no doubt in my mind that apple knows this is the case and accepts it as a manufacturing tolerance, thus no issue.


actually intended to assemble their premier MBP line with sloppy thermal paste jobs, after all the bad press they received for this problem in previous MB/MBPs. That doesn't seem credible to me. It would be the day I stopped buying Apple products.

Exactly they know about the issue yet the same factory is doing the same thing.....rubbish! Its tolerances and for the number of machines that run hotter there are the same amount that run cooler..... If you don't like it dont buy it.

If your going to not buy apple great..... how about you don't use the forum too since all you have done so far is annoy, abuse, insult and condescend people?

EDIT: In regards to tennis balls. I would expect every ball to have different 'bounce' and for its performance to vary over time. Thanks for that analagy it just backed up everything everyone is trying to say to you.

chem
Jun 18, 2007, 01:23 PM
No apple have withheld nothing. As Intel states...

Apple hasn't said anything. Their engineers knew what they were doing when they designed the MBP - they had target temps. The information is not released; the assembly quality control is allowed to slip.


As a qualified engineer let me explain manufacturing tolerances to you.


Yawn. You already admitted "Chem is right that the paste jobs aint great and that doing a proper personal job will lower your temps" and you totally ignored my analogy to the yellow gradient defect in the LCD displays. I suppose those are just within tolerances too. You must have some wide ranging tolerances, to allow for a 20C difference under load (between two otherwise identical MBPs).


EDIT: In regards to tennis balls. I would expect every ball to have different 'bounce' and for its performance to vary over time. Thanks for that analagy it just backed up everything everyone is trying to say to you.

This is an especially amusing reply, considering what players expect from a fresh can of tennis balls. Penn's advertising slogan for years was "Penn: you've seen one, you've seen them all."

applehero
Jun 18, 2007, 01:30 PM
No documentation to back up your alleged issue, then you have nothing more than an opinion. We've all heard it, and heard it, and heard it, and heard it...nobody is jumping on your bandwagon.

Good day!

eenu
Jun 18, 2007, 01:32 PM
Yawn. You already admitted "Chem is right that the paste jobs aint great and that doing a proper personal job will lower your temps" and you totally ignored my analogy to the yellow gradient defect in the LCD displays. I suppose those are just within tolerances too. You must have some wide ranging tolerances, to allow for a 20C difference under load.

Yes its not great but its the same amount per machine.

20C so what? Its still within spec.

I guess your LCD analagy was another post post edit you snuck in there..... and if your referring to the screens having the bottom 1/3 discolured then no that is a blatant fault.

This is an especially amusing reply, considering what players expect from a fresh can of tennis balls. Penn's advertising slogan for years was "Penn: you've seen one, you've seen them all."

Ah, to take pride in engineering...

I'm glad it amuses you - you seem to take things very literally though for a kid thats normally the case.... you are a kid right? Sorry if i have presumed its just everything you have shown on this forum shows you to be a 14 yr old troll who is bored in their summer holiday.

Not that you deserve a response on this, but, my point is even tennis balls will have bounce tolerancs and no two are the same. Some will bounce more than others converseley some MBP will run hotter than others except applying a heatsink on top of thermal paste is far more variable than making a tennis bal in a fixed process.

mmccaskill
Jun 18, 2007, 01:35 PM
Apple hasn't said anything. Their engineers knew what they were doing when they designed the MBP - they had target temps. The information is not released; the assembly quality control is allowed to slip.
Read your quote that I bolded and resized for you. This shoots down your entire argument. Since nothing is released it is pure speculation on your part. Now, does that mean you are wrong? Maybe not. But that is irrelevant at the moment.

aquajet
Jun 18, 2007, 01:36 PM
Just thought I'd post this for fun... :)

MBP 2.0ghz Core Duo

eenu
Jun 18, 2007, 01:39 PM
Just thought I'd post this for fun... :)

WOW 102C!!! Good going..... well since its meant to shut down at 100C you either have something wrong there or istat is not accurate

chem
Jun 18, 2007, 01:39 PM
This is simply the same old problem, coming back. It got some press last year:

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2006/05/23/thermal-paste-question.html
http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/01/macbook-pros-overheating-due-to-thermal-grease/
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=199840
http://www.macgeekery.com/hacks/hardware/the_definitive_macbook_pro_thermal_roundup
http://www.appledefects.com/wiki/index.php?title=MacBook_Pro#Improperly_applied_thermal_grease

How are those issues different than the 90+C temps reported in this thread? Or do the Apple defenders think those past complaints had no merit?

EDIT: dang, Aquajet, 102C? That's a new high. His fans were running faster than the standard 2000 rpm too, so can't blame it on fans not revving up.

synth3tik
Jun 18, 2007, 01:45 PM
So just dont be an idiot when you disassemble the thing. Kind of like my friend who wanted a new ipod and put his in the microwave while playing mp3's. :D


you smacked your friend after you told them you would ridicule them for at least 5 years, right?

jsw
Jun 18, 2007, 01:47 PM
I grow weary of the many post reports for this thread, and it seems unikely anyone in here is going to have their minds changed.

Please move on to other topics.