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e²Studios
Jun 15, 2007, 08:49 AM
"How can they design products that aren't too derivative?"
Scott Steinberg, vice president of marketing for SEGA US, has said he is "concerned" about the future of the Wii - suggesting that PS3 is more likely to be the market leader in this console cycle.
"I am a little concerned about the creative depth of the Wii pool," he told Reuters. "I'm not sure if they will top out in 2008 or 2007."
According to Steinberg, Nintendo's console could be left behind as developers begin to exploit the full potential of rival machines. "The Wii will start to look really dated in a couple years when developers get more value from the 360 and learn more and more about the PlayStation 3," he predicted.
"How much value can developers and creative folks get out of this wrist motion two years from now, or 5 years from now, or 10 years from now?" Steinberg said.
"How can they design products that aren't too derivative of what's already out there?"
Reuters reports that Sega believes PlayStation 3 will ultimately win this console battle. Steinberg said, "We know the PS3 pool is pretty deep. There's a lot to exploit there."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=25831

He makes a very good point. I don't think this Wii hype will last much past this year or in to 2Q of next. The media will find a new "fad" to exploit by then too.

Ed



Dagless
Jun 15, 2007, 09:27 AM
Lollipops. "fad". As Wii sales figures accelerate and PS3 sales level out. Is the DS a "fad" too? A lot of the SDF claimed Pokemon was a "fad".

Thing is I'm playing Smash Bros Melee, Metroid Prime 2 and Rogue Leader 1 again. These don't look dated? And 2/3 of them are from 2002 ;)

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/map_nile2nubia.JPG

Sky Blue
Jun 15, 2007, 09:28 AM
Luckily, you're on my ignore list...but *yawn* anyway.

e²Studios
Jun 15, 2007, 09:52 AM
Lollipops. "fad". As Wii sales figures accelerate and PS3 sales level out. Is the DS a "fad" too? A lot of the SDF claimed Pokemon was a "fad".

Thing is I'm playing Smash Bros Melee, Metroid Prime 2 and Rogue Leader 1 again. These don't look dated? And 2/3 of them are from 2002 ;)



Yes, its a media created fad. Just like many other things have been. Soon enough the next fad will come along and then the Wii will actually have to work for sales. Do you really thing Grandma and Auntie really want to go out and buy Metroid or SSBM? I think they must have spiked your kool aid with something if you acutally think sales will stay this way ;)

Those games do look dated when compared to the X360 or PS3 software, also known as CURRENT generation software. When compared to the Wii there may not be too much difference since most Wii games out are GCN or PS2 ports. The Wii is basically a GCN with waggle... Last generations technology at a rip off price.

Ed

pcypert
Jun 15, 2007, 10:08 AM
There's just no market research that can accurately predict these things because this is something pretty new. My aunt hasn't played games since the NES and she's getting a Wii after seeing mine. Another friend of mine's parents have been playing Mario Party on the 64 every week since it came out and are finally moving on system wise.

The Wii is dated a bit for hard core gamers. I constantly go back and forth on mine. I love the games now, but am quickly running out of stuff to do...would be the same on PS3 though for me....but a lot of folks out there aren't the hard core gamers. Folks that will love Rabids, Brain Age, once a tetris comes out with folks contorting their bodies...etc.

Also if they can keep doing more releases like the upcomming Res 4 (30 bucks on release) they'll do even that much better.

Most gamers don't play the best games out there...like me as a kid on the NES, Super NES/Sega, PS, 64...I bought crap and sometimes stumbled on the good games. Lots of young gamers who buy movie franchise games (spiderman 3 in the top 10 this month for PS2!!!)...they don't realise these things people talk about...they buy a couple games and play them for whatever they have.

Plus they're not trying to go 10 years with their product. They'll build off the profit they've made this gen and go further in a few years...whereas PS3 is stuck with the same stuff and infastructure so they better hope their online stuff works well.

Paul

whooleytoo
Jun 15, 2007, 10:34 AM
Well, he has a valid point. The Wii will look very dated; if developers release ports of FPS, RTS games etc. But they're not the Wii's strength.

If developers concentrate on simpler games which better exploit the Wii's unique features, it has a (very, very large) niche all to itself.

Dagless
Jun 15, 2007, 10:40 AM
Can someone show me the statistical data where these "non-dated" games are selling better than "dated" Wii games? It sure sounds like the public officially don't give a rats arse :D

Since Xmas the Wii has outsold the PS3 and 360 combined. If that doesn't scream the public don't care then I don't know what does :cool:

Ps. What's Kool aid? I keep hearing that from Americans. Is it a drink over there or just some term or what?

SilentPanda
Jun 15, 2007, 10:53 AM
Lollipops. "fad". As Wii sales figures accelerate and PS3 sales level out. Is the DS a "fad" too? A lot of the SDF claimed Pokemon was a "fad".

Thing is I'm playing Smash Bros Melee, Metroid Prime 2 and Rogue Leader 1 again. These don't look dated? And 2/3 of them are from 2002 ;)


Maybe I'm dense but... what is that image for?

Dagless
Jun 15, 2007, 10:56 AM
It's a rubbish joke I stole from Neogaf :( it's the Nile.

LethalWolfe
Jun 15, 2007, 11:01 AM
I'm not going to say that the Wii is a fad and will drastically fall off after a year or so, but that's a viable possibility. After we got our first test Wii in the office (and everyone played Wii sports constantly leaving the poor PS3 alone in the corner) I wondered if the Wii could maintain it's popularity after the novelty of the controls wore off. I still think that's a valid concern.

But I think right now developers are still figuring out how best to utilize the controls (just like w/the DS when it firs launched). If the controls stay more in the realm of "gimmicky" (seriously, how many mini-game compilation games do we really need... even FIFA '08 is getting a Wii specific mini-game mode) then the Wii is going to stagnate. But if the controls can "mature" and offer the same level of control you get w/a gamepad plus meaningful integration of the motion sensors the Wii is going to do very well.

Even though it's a simple UI, one of the best examples of the Wii controls is the Trauma Center port, IMO. You can't play that game on any other console besides a DS (and it's not a freakin' mini-game collection). Those types of unique games are what the Wii needs to thrive just like they made the DS thrive. Of course there are always going to be ports of super popular titles, but the ports are probably always going to have the weakest integration of the Wii controls and should be seen as desert, not the main dish.


Lethal

SilentPanda
Jun 15, 2007, 12:05 PM
It's a rubbish joke I stole from Neogaf :( it's the Nile.

Oh... guess it's an inside joke or something...

ChrisK018
Jun 15, 2007, 12:24 PM
Kool Aid is concentrated sugar/fruit flavored drink mix invented in the USA. It took a rather macabre turn in the 70's when a religious cult of US ex-pats in Guyana all drank Kool Aid committing mass suicide. Story here. (http://www.raptureready.com/rr-kool-aid.html)

The Wii already 'looks' dated with its graphics compared to the others, but it's not like there still can't be good games for it. The Wii is doing just fine, and the 5wii-1ps3 sales in Japan, will mean that lots of Japanese gamers will be getting 'dated' looking games.

Saying something is a fad is totally subjective.

BoyBach
Jun 15, 2007, 12:41 PM
"I am a little concerned about the creative depth of the Wii pool"

A developer complaining about the lack of creativity? 'Tis a bit rich, no?

:rolleyes:

zap2
Jun 15, 2007, 12:50 PM
I don't think that will slow the Wii down...however I will be picking up atleast one of the other 2 system. I like nice graphics, in HD. However I also LOVE Super Smash Brothers, Metriod and Mario Galaxy, BWii, RE:UC, etc

SamIchi
Jun 15, 2007, 12:52 PM
Oh... guess it's an inside joke or something...

The Nile -> TheNile -> Denial! Get it? Oldest joke in the book, also corniest.

I think the Wii will do Fine. You have this new demographic of "non gamers" who will be looking for quirky games here and there. Then you have the Nintedo fanatics who will undoubtely buy up everything Nintendo puts out. Wii has already proven that a game like Zelda can be a great experience. I expect nothing less from the upcoming Metroid release. As soon as developers hit that one AAA game, others will follow suit. I see big potential with the Wiimote and first person shooters.

Coded-Dude
Jun 15, 2007, 01:33 PM
:rolleyes:

Some of you guys sure are quick to Doom&Gloom the PS3 because of current sales....
Seems like you don't think sales trends will change for any console ever.

If Nintendo fails to deliver third party games, sales will start to decline.
And yes, I think this is up to Nintendo. They can open the flood gates and let everyone make anything, but that also equals failure. Nintendo needs to do everything in their power to embrace 3rd party, but also give them direction, help them innovate game play, among other things. If all we get is garbage from third party, just to make a quick buck, then I agree with Sega's stance. Come one Ninty! ;)

jdechko
Jun 15, 2007, 02:07 PM
But I think right now developers are still figuring out how best to utilize the controls (just like w/the DS when it firs launched). If the controls stay more in the realm of "gimmicky" (seriously, how many mini-game compilation games do we really need... even FIFA '08 is getting a Wii specific mini-game mode) then the Wii is going to stagnate. But if the controls can "mature" and offer the same level of control you get w/a gamepad plus meaningful integration of the motion sensors the Wii is going to do very well.

Even though it's a simple UI, one of the best examples of the Wii controls is the Trauma Center port, IMO. You can't play that game on any other console besides a DS (and it's not a freakin' mini-game collection). Those types of unique games are what the Wii needs to thrive just like they made the DS thrive. Of course there are always going to be ports of super popular titles, but the ports are probably always going to have the weakest integration of the Wii controls and should be seen as desert, not the main dish.


Lethal


Personally, though, I don't mind companies (like EA) adding additional modes / minigames provided they don't completely botch the main gameplay, and from screenshots I've seen (kotaku (http://kotaku.com/gaming/party-time/fifa-08-wii-gets-mii-minigames-268990.php)) the actual game looks pretty good for what it is. Sure you won't have sweatstains under the players' armpits during stoppage time, but it doesn't look that bad, and the shadows do look pretty nice (hopefully the character animations look good too).

As far as the second part, I think this has always been the voice of Wii owners (and part of my fear in general). Don't give us ports with tacked on controls, we're not stupid. Developers need to (and seem to) leverage the strengths of the console and use it to produce great looking games. We know that the Wii is capable of producing great looking games based on some of the later GC titles: RE4, Metroid. Twilight Princess, which I don't believe was even close to being completely optimized for the Wii, looked great and probably didn't tap close to the limits of the system.

applekid
Jun 15, 2007, 03:02 PM
"I am a little concerned about the creative depth of the Wii pool"

A developer complaining about the lack of creativity? 'Tis a bit rich, no?

:rolleyes:

That was the VP of marketing talking.

BoyBach
Jun 15, 2007, 03:08 PM
That was the VP of marketing talking.


And your point is?

AppleGuy08
Jun 15, 2007, 03:41 PM
Perhaps Sega should be more worried about actually producing a game system or games rather than what other companies systems will look/perform like in the future. Seeing that the last system they produced was the Dreamcast in '99 (available in Japan in '98) Sega has no room to talk.

JNB
Jun 15, 2007, 03:50 PM
That was the VP of marketing talking.

How can you tell if Marketing is lying? Their lips are moving...

rockthecasbah
Jun 15, 2007, 03:56 PM
Reuters reports that Sega believes PlayStation 3 will ultimately win this console battle. Steinberg said, "We know the PS3 pool is pretty deep. There's a lot to exploit there."

Ya okay, so a console that has so much playable depth will die off and a console that is outsold by its predecessor per month by nearly double and hardly anyone can afford will "win" ?!?! That makes a whole lot of sense :mad:


Believe me i'm not disagreeing with the graphics bit about the Wii, I do feel they may be too old in the future, but i feel that part of it is not just hardware and also developer based because people ARE ACCEPTING games with low grade graphics! There has got to be so much power left untapped, look at RE4 for the gamecube which came out how many years ago and is STILL one of the most beautiful games in my opinion?

Dagless
Jun 15, 2007, 04:51 PM
Exactly. Graphics on the Wii (just like the 360 and PS3) can only get better. I've yet to play a Wii game with a drop in frame rate, so there's enough power there to get Excite Truck, Zelda and co running at a constant rate.

What I don't understand though, is how anyone can say the graphics look dated. It's almost as if people here haven't played a PC game before, which I'm sure isn't the case. In 2004 I was playing Half Life 2 and Doom 3 etc, in super high resolutions. I didn't go play Mario Galaxy or Metroid and say "You know what, this looks dated". The 200 or so million people who bought video games consoles last gen didn't seem to mind the huge drop in visual quality from PC to console?

Something I've always wondered is what did the SDF play before Sony had the graphical upperhand? Did you side with the most powerful console then?

Corrosive vinyl
Jun 15, 2007, 05:04 PM
ed, where is that dapper chap with the hat?

anyways, the way I see is that after a few years nearly everything looks dated, that is why companies come out with updated products.

Chone
Jun 15, 2007, 06:03 PM
The Nile -> TheNile -> Denial! Get it? Oldest joke in the book, also corniest.

I think the Wii will do Fine. You have this new demographic of "non gamers" who will be looking for quirky games here and there. Then you have the Nintedo fanatics who will undoubtely buy up everything Nintendo puts out. Wii has already proven that a game like Zelda can be a great experience. I expect nothing less from the upcoming Metroid release. As soon as developers hit that one AAA game, others will follow suit. I see big potential with the Wiimote and first person shooters.

I don't think you should expect the Wii to ever be a good shooter console simply because shooters are very visual experiences, the Wii is too techinically limited to make a good shooter by today's standards and its not like the control scheme is that great currently for Wii FPS. The PC IS and will always remain the best platform for FPS and Strategy games (real time or turn based).

I think Wii developers should focus more on the unique characteristics of the Wii and create new exciting games instead of releasing the same old things with tacked on Wii controls... I mean, if you release The Godfather on PS2 and then on Wii, making comparisons between the two is inevitable especially since they look the same... what Wii games need are new interesting concepts and games, something like Elebits or Warioware.

In any case, what good game does the Wii have thats not of the usual Nintendo franchises? Elebits? That is all I can think of and what are your most expected games? They are probably same ol Nintendo. This is the biggest issue I have with the Wii and Nintendo consoles, the fact Nintendo wants to have complete control over their console and if its not their way then its the highway for the 3rd party. Really, 1st party right now is the only thing worth on the Wii.

I honestly think that better processing power will actually open up more game ideas than motion control will and that the 360 and PS3 will have an edge because of that, the Wii is popular right now because its innovative and it has fun and quirky games but honestly I don't know how much that will last, I just feel the Wii will suffer the same fate as the Cube that is have quite a few AAA titles here and there but not enough to compete with the other consoles. I really think the Wii's technical limitations will come back and bite Nintendo in the ass a few years from now.

Dagless
Jun 15, 2007, 06:29 PM
In any case, what good game does the Wii have thats not of the usual Nintendo franchises? Elebits? That is all I can think of and what are your most expected games? They are probably same ol Nintendo.

Metal Slug? SSX Blur? Sonic? And they're just the ones in my small library.
Excite Truck and Metroid Prime 3 aren't actually developed by Nintendo...

I honestly think that better processing power will actually open up more game ideas than motion control will and that the 360 and PS3 will have an edge because of that, the Wii is popular right now because its innovative and it has fun and quirky games but honestly I don't know how much that will last, I just feel the Wii will suffer the same fate as the Cube that is have quite a few AAA titles here and there but not enough to compete with the other consoles. I really think the Wii's technical limitations will come back and bite Nintendo in the ass a few years from now.

You'd think so, but you're wrong. Look at any PC library. There is nothing new being brought out on these "power computers". Nobody wants that. Hardcore games all seem to gravitate towards the Lost Planets and Gears style games.
Not only has the Wii got the radically different control method, but also has the basis of a new ideology in the market due to the new people playing these games. They don't have to cater for the hardcore crowd as much, course they have Smash Bros, Metroid etc. for that crowd. It's very easy to create a new genre in a new market. Take a look at the DS. It was very much a bog standard system until Touch Generations hit, and now you're getting waves of unusual games and new genres.
Sorry. I know you're very keen on these big CPU speeds but if you look at the PC market - it just doesn't happen. As usual it's small studios who take risks to get noticed with inventive and original design, be it on PC in the indy scene or DS.

zap2
Jun 15, 2007, 07:08 PM
.

In any case, what good game does the Wii have thats not of the usual Nintendo franchises? Elebits? That is all I can think of and what are your most expected games?

Excite Trucks(based on Excite Bikes, but that was NES era), Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Music, Resident Evil:UC,Soul Cailbur Legends, "A Wii game that lets players wield virtual light sabers is on the horizon.", Rayman Raving Rabbits, Manhunt 2.....not to mentiion muilt platform makes that will be different from other system because of controls(Madden '07, The Gofather etc)...also the games Jimmie said


(Source for Wii lightsaber game http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/companies/display_article.aspx?Nav=ns&lvl2=comp&ArticleID=1518-1783_2119756)

JackAxe
Jun 15, 2007, 10:01 PM
I don't think you should expect the Wii to ever be a good shooter console simply because shooters are very visual experiences, the Wii is too techinically limited to make a good shooter by today's standards and its not like the control scheme is that great currently for Wii FPS. The PC IS and will always remain the best platform for FPS and Strategy games (real time or turn based).

Maybe if I hadn't been playing FPS games since the DOS days, I might be more prone to agree with your opinion. Today's standards are a major step backwards overall, thanks to dumbed down enemies and controls that leave quite a bit to be desired. Having to accommodate a console's gimped controls has done more to hurt FPS games than the fact it's a tired-repetitive-genre. One that still calls for me on my PC and now my Wii.

Behold, still one of the best FPS games made to date; "CounterStrike." Even when played at a 640x480, a lower resolution than the Wii's firmware locked rez. And to go down this tired route again, a DVD looks 10 fold better at its Wii resolution than anything the PS360 can spew out in real-time, besides a movie of course.

Given that the Wii's sensor bar is placement is good in relation to the TV, it's the best alternative to a mouse I've used, since it works the same... Well, not when some lazy PS2 developer ports their game to the Wii with the same thumb-twiddling movement, as in the Wiimote pushes the camera, not pulls it.

And the best thing Sony can do for FPS games IMO, is to ship all new PS3s with a mouse and keyboard. This would give the developers no excuse not to support it. MS should really do the same...


I think Wii developers should focus more on the unique characteristics of the Wii and create new exciting games instead of releasing the same old things with tacked on Wii controls... I mean, if you release The Godfather on PS2 and then on Wii, making comparisons between the two is inevitable especially since they look the same... what Wii games need are new interesting concepts and games, something like Elebits or Warioware.

Aren't you tired of developers releasing the same old things for the PS360, but with HD graphics tacked on? I certainly am. At least with the Wii there have been some truly new things, not just more of the same, but purdier.

Nintendo needs developers that aren't PS2 eccentric in their mind-set. It's the lazy-devs whom are doing nothing more than porting sub-par PS2 games (even by a Cube's standards) to the Wii. Fortunately there are several games on the horizon that are breaking the PS2-mold, so I have only high hopes for the Wii's future.


In any case, what good game does the Wii have thats not of the usual Nintendo franchises? Elebits? That is all I can think of and what are your most expected games? They are probably same ol Nintendo. This is the biggest issue I have with the Wii and Nintendo consoles, the fact Nintendo wants to have complete control over their console and if its not their way then its the highway for the 3rd party. Really, 1st party right now is the only thing worth on the Wii.

The same thing can be said for Sony, especially now.


I honestly think that better processing power will actually open up more game ideas than motion control will and that the 360 and PS3 will have an edge because of that, the Wii is popular right now because its innovative and it has fun and quirky games but honestly I don't know how much that will last, I just feel the Wii will suffer the same fate as the Cube that is have quite a few AAA titles here and there but not enough to compete with the other consoles. I really think the Wii's technical limitations will come back and bite Nintendo in the ass a few years from now.

Better developers make all of the difference. More proccessing power my arse. The best games I've played would easily run on my phone. It's because of more power that so much innovation has been lost, since it takes way more resources and a bloated budget to get things done, so publishers are far less prone to take a chance.

Madden isn't quirky, and it's way better on the Wii with even its PS2 ported graphics than the PS360 version. And what I like about the Wii, is the fact developers are focusing on innovation, the idea. Not more proccessing power or higher-rez-graphics that really don't help the visual style of the game, let alone gameplay.

<]=)

ReanimationLP
Jun 15, 2007, 11:05 PM
Marketing people always talk out of their ass.

Since hes the VP, he must really like talking out of his ass.

The Wii is a nifty machine, with some good games, and some more good stuff coming down the pipeline.

Fahrwahr
Jun 15, 2007, 11:21 PM
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=25831

He makes a very good point. I don't think this Wii hype will last much past this year or in to 2Q of next. The media will find a new "fad" to exploit by then too.

Ed

And? I don't really understand why it's that out of the ordinary for a console to begin to appear dated a couple of years after its release. Are we assuming that Nintendo is going to sit on its hands and pretend that the Wii is the end-all be-all? Rest assured, we'll probably see a "Wii Deluxe Edition" or a "Slightly Less Wii" in the time frame that we're talking about here, and not far from that, the focus will be on the PlayStation 4, the XBox uhh… 540? (The 360 name doesn't lend itself to succession), and the Nintendo Ooo! (Sorry -- couldn't resist playing on the name.)

This is just some guy who wants to make big news with prognostications, just like the analysts we see here on MR from time to time. If the Wii does turn out to be a fad, it wouldn't have been a bad fate for it, as it will only be superseded in due time anyway.

(More of a comment aimed at the Sega guy, not you, Ed.)

MacRumorUser
Jun 16, 2007, 06:26 AM
** too everyone **

Things never change in this forum section do they? :rolleyes:

The same tired rhetoric, clichés and lambasting and exactly the same folks churning it out.

You all need 50 lashes in the dungeon ;) :o :)

Dagless
Jun 16, 2007, 07:24 AM
Thing is Jackaxe, not everyone has had access to PC's for games. Sure it's a overwhelming majority, but us previously PC gamers know the market and what studios do and don't. We're lucky enough to not get cheap giggles from higher resolutions, which again are so 1990's and didn't make 1/100th of the games better. Faster computers haven't brought more inventive gaming to the masses. What have we had in the past few years, Half Life? The Sims? World or Warcraft. Since when were FPS, Sim or MMORPG games new and original?

Meh. These young whipper snappers will see soon mate ;)

I'll go back to playing Knytt or Alex Adventure for some gameplay goodness now.

XNine
Jun 16, 2007, 09:09 AM
graphically, the system already looks dated. Nintendo may think the majority of gamers don't care about graphics, but that's where they're wrong. It's been one of the major selling points ever since the NES killed the atari.

zap2
Jun 16, 2007, 09:37 AM
graphically, the system already looks dated. Nintendo may think the majority of gamers don't care about graphics, but that's where they're wrong. It's been one of the major selling points ever since the NES killed the atari.

Nintendo is try to expand their market....I'm willing to bet Nintendo's hardcore fans(most of the NGC owners) already were going to pick up the next NGC no questions asked, so Nintendo lost few owners them. They could pick up some Xbox/PS2 owners with the Wii, but those numbers won't be massive. Certianly not enough people to see the sales we are seeing from the Wii currently. Nintendo is looking elsewhere to sell their system, because they know the current market was leaving a huge amount of people not gaming. Nintendo is hoping for growth from nongamers

Chone
Jun 16, 2007, 09:53 AM
You'd think so, but you're wrong. Look at any PC library. There is nothing new being brought out on these "power computers". Nobody wants that. Hardcore games all seem to gravitate towards the Lost Planets and Gears style games.
Not only has the Wii got the radically different control method, but also has the basis of a new ideology in the market due to the new people playing these games. They don't have to cater for the hardcore crowd as much, course they have Smash Bros, Metroid etc. for that crowd. It's very easy to create a new genre in a new market. Take a look at the DS. It was very much a bog standard system until Touch Generations hit, and now you're getting waves of unusual games and new genres.
Sorry. I know you're very keen on these big CPU speeds but if you look at the PC market - it just doesn't happen. As usual it's small studios who take risks to get noticed with inventive and original design, be it on PC in the indy scene or DS.

Well yeah but that is for a different reason altogether, PCs are expensive stuff and actually if you'd notice you'd see there ARE a few developers keen on innovating but yes you are right, on the PC we see no innovation because shooters and strategy games is pretty much the only genres that work on PCs, or at least the only ones PC gamers want along with RPG/MMORPG and simulators or whatever (The Sims, flight simulators, etc).

You guys seem to believe that I think graphics make a game when I really don't, I'm just looking at the facts... I mean, Grand Theft Auto was a pretty revolutionary game wouldn't you think? Do you think GTA could have been done on the N64 and PSX? THIS is what I mean by better processing power and this generation will really allow the development of better and more interactive physic models.

Maybe if I hadn't been playing FPS games since the DOS days, I might be more prone to agree with your opinion. Today's standards are a major step backwards overall, thanks to dumbed down enemies and controls that leave quite a bit to be desired. Having to accommodate a console's gimped controls has done more to hurt FPS games than the fact it's a tired-repetitive-genre. One that still calls for me on my PC and now my Wii.

Well I've been playing FPS games since the DOS days (though that would actually be System 7 since I was exclusively on Macs then) and I loved FPS for different reasons as well but I've been playing FPS recently now and apart from very particular cases (TimeSplitters 2, Half Life 2, maybe, just maybe Halo, Counter Strike, most valve games) I enjoy FPS for their atmospheric and immersing appeal. The truth the FPS genre is like you say a tired-repetitive genre and wii controls will not help much.


Behold, still one of the best FPS games made to date; "CounterStrike." Even when played at a 640x480, a lower resolution than the Wii's firmware locked rez. And to go down this tired route again, a DVD looks 10 fold better at its Wii resolution than anything the PS360 can spew out in real-time, besides a movie of course.


I'm not talking about resolutions or this rather stupid HD craze that has gotten into people, by better processing power I'm actually talking about other things. And yes Counter Strike is a great game but try playing most other FPS at 640x480 and you'll see why FPS are pretty much useless without their atmospheric and immersing traits.


And the best thing Sony can do for FPS games IMO, is to ship all new PS3s with a mouse and keyboard. This would give the developers no excuse not to support it. MS should really do the same...

I agree.


Aren't you tired of developers releasing the same old things for the PS360, but with HD graphics tacked on? I certainly am. At least with the Wii there have been some truly new things, not just more of the same, but purdier.

Nintendo needs developers that aren't PS2 eccentric in their mind-set. It's the lazy-devs whom are doing nothing more than porting sub-par PS2 games (even by a Cube's standards) to the Wii. Fortunately there are several games on the horizon that are breaking the PS2-mold, so I have only high hopes for the Wii's future.

Actually I am, the whole HD graphics craze is really bugging me to be honest, this is why I don't have a 360 or PS3 yet. But it is not like there has been much innovation on the Wii either, I'm really out of the loop here so I might be playing with fire but last time I checked the Wii was a fun console but did not exactly save from the "tack on" trend.

I mean look at the DS, yes its wildly succesful handheld but... I mean come one what are you playing on it right now? Most likely Pokemon, an incredible game yes, but can that game really not be done on the PSP for example? Is Pokemon really exploiting the DS in ways that its revolutionizing the industry? Mario Kart DS, same thing, New Super Mario Bros, same thing, Final Fantasy games, same thing. You really shouldn't confuse the fact that Nintendo makes downright awesome games with the DS's hardware. I'm not saying there aren't games that don't use the DS's capabilites, I'm just saying great games can be made on any console regardless of its capabilites, the games that draw me the most to the DS could probably be done on the PSP with hardly any significant tradeoffs.


The same thing can be said for Sony, especially now.


Yeah I agree, I never said I was pro-Sony now did I?


Better developers make all of the difference. More proccessing power my arse. The best games I've played would easily run on my phone. It's because of more power that so much innovation has been lost, since it takes way more resources and a bloated budget to get things done, so publishers are far less prone to take a chance.

Madden isn't quirky, and it's way better on the Wii with even its PS2 ported graphics than the PS360 version. And what I like about the Wii, is the fact developers are focusing on innovation, the idea. Not more proccessing power or higher-rez-graphics that really don't help the visual style of the game, let alone gameplay.

Yeah developers make all the difference so the difference between the Wii and the PS3/360 is not that one has motion control and the other has good hardware, the difference is developers and you have to admit, without Nintendo the Wii would be nothing so what are we arguing about here? It all comes down to what I said and always say, great games can be made on any damn platform but you can't deny the fact that better hardware DOES open the possibility of new gameplay ideas, take for example Grand Theft Auto from the last generation, don't be an ass about it.

Thing is Jackaxe, not everyone has had access to PC's for games. Sure it's a overwhelming majority, but us previously PC gamers know the market and what studios do and don't. We're lucky enough to not get cheap giggles from higher resolutions, which again are so 1990's and didn't make 1/100th of the games better. Faster computers haven't brought more inventive gaming to the masses. What have we had in the past few years, Half Life? The Sims? World or Warcraft. Since when were FPS, Sim or MMORPG games new and original?

Meh. These young whipper snappers will see soon mate ;)

I'll go back to playing Knytt or Alex Adventure for some gameplay goodness now.

I'm with you Jimmi, I'm not impressed with the console graphics because I played Half Life 2 in 2004 and that still looks better than most next gen games out there I'm also irked heavily by this "HD craze", wow 720p, big deal. And you don't need to create a new genre to be innovative... in any what matters is how much fun the game provides, WoW brought nothing new to the table, I myself hated WoW but I know tons of people who have had a lot of fun playing it. What really matters is how much a game can entertain you and it certainly doesn't need innovation to do that.

Haoshiro
Jun 16, 2007, 09:57 AM
graphically, the system already looks dated. Nintendo may think the majority of gamers don't care about graphics, but that's where they're wrong. It's been one of the major selling points ever since the NES killed the atari.

I'm really not sure how you can make a statement like that in confidence.

The NES was a generation beyond the 2600, and was graphically inferior to the Sega Master System, yet still came out ahead.

PS1 was arguably graphically (and in almost every other hardware aspect) inferior to N64.

PS2 games didn't even beat Dreamcast graphically when it launched, and Xbox and GameCube beat it out in the graphics, but it still remained the dominant platform.

Wii is outselling everything, it's obviously working just fine. DS outsells PSP, yet is graphically inferior.

Evidently graphics don't matter near as much as you are suggesting. Even if they did, the majority still use non-HD TV sets that just don't benefit that much from these high-res games on 360/PS3.

I just bought a Wii within the week, and honestly I expect it to be worse then it is graphically, as did everyone that played it - yet the consensus is that it's great fun. Nintendo took a gamble, and it's paying off in the truck loads.

Xeem
Jun 16, 2007, 12:22 PM
If Nintendo fails to deliver third party games, sales will start to decline.
And yes, I think this is up to Nintendo. They can open the flood gates and let everyone make anything, but that also equals failure. Nintendo needs to do everything in their power to embrace 3rd party, but also give them direction, help them innovate game play, among other things. If all we get is garbage from third party, just to make a quick buck, then I agree with Sega's stance. Come one Ninty! ;)

I agree. I'm very worried for the Wii right now not because of hardware limitations, but because I haven't seen too many third party titles that aren't gimmicky. On the other hand, the DS started off in a similar fashion, with many third party titles releasing games that relied purely on supposedly innovative and impressive ways to use the sylus, but third party support has solidified and the DS is loaded with great games now, many of which don't even use the stylus. Personally, I want to see some great third party games on the Wii that don't rely on the Wiimote; this would be a major sign of legitimacy for the Wii.

XNine
Jun 16, 2007, 12:52 PM
I'm really not sure how you can make a statement like that in confidence.

The NES was a generation beyond the 2600, and was graphically inferior to the Sega Master System, yet still came out ahead.

PS1 was arguably graphically (and in almost every other hardware aspect) inferior to N64.

PS2 games didn't even beat Dreamcast graphically when it launched, and Xbox and GameCube beat it out in the graphics, but it still remained the dominant platform.

Wii is outselling everything, it's obviously working just fine. DS outsells PSP, yet is graphically inferior.

Evidently graphics don't matter near as much as you are suggesting. Even if they did, the majority still use non-HD TV sets that just don't benefit that much from these high-res games on 360/PS3.

I just bought a Wii within the week, and honestly I expect it to be worse then it is graphically, as did everyone that played it - yet the consensus is that it's great fun. Nintendo took a gamble, and it's paying off in the truck loads.

I can say it with confidence because it's true. The graphical capability of the Wii is years beyond the other two consoles on the market. The Wii is a generation up on the PS2, but only has the same graphical capabilities.

The gaming market has expanded since the NES days, and back then they had 95% of developers working for them. It wasn't until the PS that Nintendo lost a huge amount of developers. The developers for the PS platform were very innovative and they pulled major feats with the system, that the N64 was not willing or capable of pushing. Sure, Nintendo is trying to reach out to non-gamers, and that's fine. But for those already establishing themselves as hardcore gamers, those you can depend on to continually buy the newest platforms and games, graphics do matter.

What it really boiles down to is who your developers are, and what they can do. I quote Steve Ballmer: "Developers, developers, developers, developers!" Ingenuity wise, there are none better than those that work for the Konami division that works on the Metal Gear series. Graphically, none better than those that work on the Gran Turismo franchise. Neither of them work for Nintendo exclusively (or perhaps at all, even) and these are two franchises that pull a huge majority of the gamers.

You might be okay with a system not trying to push graphical capabilities, and there are those who share the same opinion, but there's also the majority of people who care about immersing themselves and finding the limits of current graphics technology. The first thing that comes out of people's mouths when talking about a new game is "have you seen the graphics?!" It's a very detrimental part of the industry, and ignoring that fact is a bad thing.

Haoshiro
Jun 16, 2007, 12:52 PM
I agree. I'm very worried for the Wii right now not because of hardware limitations, but because I haven't seen too many third party titles that aren't gimmicky. On the other hand, the DS started off in a similar fashion, with many third party titles releasing games that relied purely on supposedly innovative and impressive ways to use the sylus, but third party support has solidified and the DS is loaded with great games now, many of which don't even use the stylus. Personally, I want to see some great third party games on the Wii that don't rely on the Wiimote; this would be a major sign of legitimacy for the Wii.

Third Parties, and all publishers, simply follow the money - they go where the profit is. That's why I'm not worried about the Wii, as you said, DS had a similar start.

Nintendo created a platform that is cheaper to develop on then any other system. It has had huge sales success which means it has a very large install base. And for publishers, that means there are a lot of potential customers - which in turn means a lot of potential profit.

Just as the DS is now getting huge support. The next Dragon Quest ditching consoles in favor of DS? Why? Install base. They stand to make far more money on a DS version of the game then any others. Square-Enix is big, and they aren't the only big companies backing DS with big support.

It'll take a while for it to happen, but the huge success of Wii at retail will make it look like a money tree, and everyone will want to make games for it. Which is smart, because it will cost them less money and net them more profit.

I believe Wii is here to stay, and third party software is set to take off better then anyone expects - even Nintendo themselves.

SamIchi
Jun 16, 2007, 01:24 PM
I can say it with confidence because it's true. The graphical capability of the Wii is years beyond the other two consoles on the market. The Wii is a generation up on the PS2, but only has the same graphical capabilities.

...

Did you mean behind?

Does the PS2 and Wii have the same capabilities? Cause the PS2 graphics look like crap even compared to GC graphics. If they do have the same capabilities, the developers put it to crap use. Which brings up another point, like Miyamoto has said (I think), we have reached a level of graphical ability where it's just shooting numbers out and it's starting to plateau out. Personally I hope developers put more thought into the art style and direction than how many textures and polygons a game can push.

zap2
Jun 16, 2007, 01:47 PM
" Ingenuity wise, there are none better than those that work for the Konami division that works on the Metal Gear series. Graphically, none better than those that work on the Gran Turismo franchise. Neither of them work for Nintendo exclusively (or perhaps at all, even) and these are two franchises that pull a huge majority of the gamers.
.



Graphicly, none better thne Gran Turismo? Please! Gears of War tooking graphics to level! And Haze Devs are also master of graphics. The people who work on GT are good...not doubt about it, but Nintendo has some skilled devs for working for or with them. RE4 for the gamecube, that game was amazing graphicly(for the hardware they were using)

Ingenuity wise Nintendo has tons. Mario 64 took platforming to a new level. Legend of Zelda games are always epic. The seemless switch from 2D to 3D Metriod games.

As far as GT and Metal Gear pulling a large number of fans...true, but Halo pulls more and Super Smash Brother Brawl, Mario Galaxy, Metriod Prime 3, Legend of Zelda...all big games, which pull tons of fans as well.


Each system has more then enough games to justifiy the purchase of it, and tons of talented devs

2nyRiggz
Jun 16, 2007, 02:40 PM
I'm not worried about Nintendo at all...they have a large install base and it is growing. I do believe the wii thing will simmer down soon enough but as things are going now...Nintendo already scored big

Whats left?....The devs bringing some interesting titles to the wii not just the stupid ports but original stuff that take advantage of the controls for example...Elibiets(sp)

This is the time Nintendo needs to push those devs into making great games and not half arse gimmicks we've seen so far. I think year two will be better game wise.



Bless

LethalWolfe
Jun 16, 2007, 02:59 PM
You might be okay with a system not trying to push graphical capabilities, and there are those who share the same opinion, but there's also the majority of people who care about immersing themselves and finding the limits of current graphics technology. The first thing that comes out of people's mouths when talking about a new game is "have you seen the graphics?!" It's a very detrimental part of the industry, and ignoring that fact is a bad thing.

If the majority of people care about gfx above all else how do you explain the huge success of graphically inferior systems that Haoshiro mentioned in his post? How do you explain the popularity of the downloadable games Sony, MS, and Nintendo sell? People talk about gfx because they are easy to quantify and compare. The same reason people talk about CPU speed in computers and megapixel count in cameras. The marketing people push these things because bigger numbers are easier to sell than abstract things like fun. GFX are "a" factor, not "the" factor. I do agree that focusing only GFX is "detrimental" to the industry. ;)


Lethal

XNine
Jun 16, 2007, 03:33 PM
Graphicly, none better thne Gran Turismo? Please! Gears of War tooking graphics to level! And Haze Devs are also master of graphics. The people who work on GT are good...not doubt about it, but Nintendo has some skilled devs for working for or with them. RE4 for the gamecube, that game was amazing graphicly(for the hardware they were using)

GOW was a piece of crap. Great graphics, I suppose, though they used the same lighting effects throughout the entire game. But gameplay wise, and story wise this game was garbage. Apparently you haven't seen the impressive effects of GT HD yet. Or realize the level of detail and cleverness of the MGS team and Hideo Kojima. They after all made the best boss-fight in history in MGS for the PS. Why? Details. I would also like you to find me one game for the Wii that will be nearly as graphically impressive as GT HD will be. You won't. And that's because the system can't handle it.

Ingenuity wise Nintendo has tons. Mario 64 took platforming to a new level. Legend of Zelda games are always epic. The seemless switch from 2D to 3D Metriod games.

Perhaps, but the N64 was a tremendous failure. The console itself only had 394 titles worldwide. That counts exclusive titles. The system also killed numerous franchises, such as Earth Worm Jim.


Did you mean behind?

Yes, yes I did.

Does the PS2 and Wii have the same capabilities? Cause the PS2 graphics look like crap even compared to GC graphics. If they do have the same capabilities, the developers put it to crap use. Which brings up another point, like Miyamoto has said (I think), we have reached a level of graphical ability where it's just shooting numbers out and it's starting to plateau out. Personally I hope developers put more thought into the art style and direction than how many textures and polygons a game can push.

Don't get me wrong, not all games are great simply great because graphically for the period they're great. We've all seen this. FF8 and 9, GOW, Halo 2, absolutely not great games, though the graphics were great for the time. I love games like Katamari and Okami, Lunar: SSSC, and others that weren't graphically superior, but were great games none the less. Great graphics do help push great games, though.

If the majority of people care about gfx above all else how do you explain the huge success of graphically inferior systems that Haoshiro mentioned in his post? How do you explain the popularity of the downloadable games Sony, MS, and Nintendo sell? People talk about gfx because they are easy to quantify and compare. The same reason people talk about CPU speed in computers and megapixel count in cameras. The marketing people push these things because bigger numbers are easier to sell than abstract things like fun. GFX are "a" factor, not "the" factor. I do agree that focusing only GFX is "detrimental" to the industry. ;)


Lethal

There are still those that support Nintendo as hardcore fans. I haven't since the SNES. Plus, the price point makes a lot of people think it's worth it. The numbers will increase for the other two consoles are more titles are released.

And yes, focusing ONLY on graphics is bad. Not focusing on them is bad as well. There is definitely good and bad amongst both sides. A fine line that a lot of devs walk.

Dagless
Jun 16, 2007, 04:00 PM
So what you're saying is, despite MGS's original release on the PS1 no boss battle has come close to it? And the Wii doesn't stand a chance because it can't produce that level of detail found in a system from 1996?

I think you just proved that you don't need super consoles for detail.

zap2
Jun 16, 2007, 04:10 PM
But gameplay wise, and story wise this game was garbage.

I loved it, though it was tons of fun...and I highly doubt you'll be able to change my mind about it.
Apparently you haven't seen the impressive effects of GT HD yet.

I have...in all its glory, highest resolution, HDMI cable, Sony Bravia 55'' LCD screen(friends set up)....looked very nice....started to play it, and got bored. Turned it off, and went back down stairs. I care very liittle about graphics...game play is far more important to me. GT:HD isn't my type of games.

Or realize the level of detail and cleverness of the MGS team and Hideo Kojima. They after all made the best boss-fight in history in MGS for the PS. Why? Details.

I'm not a fan of Metal Gear...just not my type of games.

I would also like you to find me one game for the Wii that will be nearly as graphically impressive as GT HD will be. You won't. And that's because the system can't handle it.

That was worth saying :rolleyes: I really thought the Wii could, and it was just a matter of time :rolleyes: But the Wii could have games like say..MGS, which you said was some of the best boss battles ever.


Perhaps, but the N64 was a tremendous failure. The console itself only had 394 titles worldwide. That counts exclusive titles. The system also killed numerous franchises, such as Earth Worm Jim.

That doesn't make Mario 64 bad....and that was my point.

JackAxe
Jun 17, 2007, 04:33 AM
I need to add a point about the topic since my prior post was just my usual rants.

Why is Sega worrying about the Wii's potential in 5 or 10 years? In about 5 years Nintendo will be introducing their next big thing. By that time the tech that makes up a PS360 now will be dated. It already is by PC's standards. Whatever Nintendo introduces then, even if it's another green-to-a-degree-console, it will be much more capable than any of the current systems now.

In a couple of years as developers learn the tricks of the current system, they'll only take what they know and apply it to all 3 where possible. If the Wii's current trend continues, where as it becomes the dominant system replacing the PS2, it will not be the one that suffers do to technical limitations. Compromises will be made for the other consoles as developers focus primarily on the Wii for their money making games.

The games I enjoy right now aren't the latest and greatest spewing out art that's similar to PCs of yesteryear. They're games like Paper Mario which have strong stylized art that fits the story/mood. I still like the lo-rez pixelated art found in "The Digg" better than practically any 3D generated game.

Sega is guilty of not doing all they can for current console and delivering dated art. Look at Sonic on the 360 or PS3...

And like this all matters, because in 2 years, even 5 years, I'll STILL be playing StarCraft 2, which already has technically dated visuals from about 4 years back. Dated art hasn't effected my WC3 Dota playtime when it consumes me and my friends about once a year for a month. :)

<]=)

Dagless
Jun 17, 2007, 06:04 AM
The games I enjoy right now aren't the latest and greatest spewing out art that's similar to PCs of yesteryear. They're games like Paper Mario which have strong stylized art that fits the story/mood. I still like the lo-rez pixelated art found in "The Digg" better than practically any 3D generated game.

You should check out a game my mates working on. It's a sequel to one I made a few years back and this guy is phenomenal! Very addictive game. Only it won't be out for a long time :) in a way it puts even R-Type to shame :eek:
http://imagehost.ensellitis.com/imagesv2/8703457214TE2_shot1.PNG

To flip this whole discussion round, I wonder when these folk who never played PC games are going to have the HD fad wear out. I know it took me a month or so when I was about 11, you know the style. Shoving up the AA, reaching for the highest res whilst still going for smooth frame rates (something a lot of "next gen" games I've played can't seem to do). The question being "without these graphics is this game still worth playing?".

It looks like my prediction was right. I wish I bookmarked it too :mad:
Anyone else remember me saying "The Wii is going to surpass everything - though gamers won't accept it because the majority of sales will be to casual and non-gamers". Silly stuck up gamers :p

BoyBach
Jun 17, 2007, 06:29 AM
Perhaps, but the N64 was a tremendous failure.


A failure? :eek:

The N64 had the 'Holy Trinity' of Super Mario 64, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time & Goldeneye.

Any system would kill for three such revolutionary titles.

Dagless
Jun 17, 2007, 07:35 AM
A failure? :eek:

The N64 had the 'Holy Trinity' of Super Mario 64, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time & Goldeneye.

Any system would kill for three such revolutionary titles.

I think "Quality over quantity" is a term we're going to see resuscitated for the PS3.

But you're right. OoT is the highest rated game of all time, any system would kill for that privilege.

Chone
Jun 17, 2007, 10:58 AM
The N64 was not bad, I owned very few games for the 64 (OoT, Mario 64, Mario Kart, Mario Tennis, World Cup 98 and some Formula 1 game which was quite fun actually) but I rented and borrowed from friends often, it was a nice console, it just need more games but the quality was definitely there, Conker Bad Fur Day is still one of the best games I've played and I don't think much needs to be said about GoldenEye :)

pcypert
Jun 17, 2007, 12:01 PM
I owned the PS first due to wanting to play FF7 and Tomb Raider. I loved those and the system and played quite a few games on it. The only games that got any long term play though were Crash Bandicoot and Parrapa the Rapper. Not the gleaming graphical powerhouses of the system :)

I bought the 64 later and in college played that system quite a bit more due to Diddy Kong, Mario Kart, etc...games with "cartoony" graphics but solid fun.

Same these days. Had a 360 and loved GeOW and others...but the games took way too long to get into if you had some friends pop over and wanted to play something for thirty minutes or so. The Wii is perfect there...and a lot of people want that.

Paul

takao
Jun 18, 2007, 02:52 AM
a guy from sega predicting console sales... :rolleyes:

they better should concentrate on making their games better

Dagless
Jun 18, 2007, 05:45 AM
they better should concentrate on making their games better

They did. They made Sonic the Hedgehog and it flopped, then they made Sonic and the Secret Rings and it didn't do so badly :D So much for dated hardware!

JackAxe
Jun 18, 2007, 06:11 AM
Sega... Bleh, I miss the old days when they rocked. I'm glad to see peeps like you and your friend still pursuing pixel games. :) Even though no game in any way can ever be better than the greatness that is R-Type. It's a shooter religion now, so your comment is blasphemy. :p

I played Mario Party 8 yesterday. Loads of fun with lot of fun dated graphics. I really like Nintendo's use of 8-bit art in their newer games. In MP8 one of the candy powerups makes your character into a 3D version of their 8-bit counterpart. :)

I've also notice that like pixel art, lower-poly art is growing in to its own style, not just a technical limitation.

<]=)

Dagless
Jun 18, 2007, 06:26 AM
That's very true. It's becoming an art style in itself, a few pixel art portfolio sites I visited years ago now host low poly galleries. I think it's great and only hope for a future less obsessed with forcing as many polygons out of a GPU.

jdechko
Jun 18, 2007, 08:44 AM
I played Mario Party 8 yesterday. Loads of fun with lot of fun dated graphics. I really like Nintendo's use of 8-bit art in their newer games. In MP8 one of the candy powerups makes your character into a 3D version of their 8-bit counterpart. :)

I got it for father's day and my wife and I played it for a couple of hours. I noticed that the graphics weren't as smooth as they could have been, but that didn't stop us from having a great time (after my wife finally got the hang of it all).

That's very true. It's becoming an art style in itself, a few pixel art portfolio sites I visited years ago now host low poly galleries. I think it's great and only hope for a future less obsessed with forcing as many polygons out of a GPU.

I think that's becoming a key idea in the gaming industry, and it's been mentioned in this thread a few times. Graphics (overall) are becoming less of the focus, and it's becoming more about the art style. The industry, though, will be segmented on this, but that's fine. You're always going to have people obsessed with numbers (like how many polygons you can squeeze out of a GPU, CPU clock speet, RAM, etc) and the results that are associated with them. And that's fine, it's a large enough market that it's profitable for companies to pursue them. Then there are markets that like great graphics, but also like the art style associate with them (Okami is one of them, Wind Waker is another).

I guess my point here is that the market is expanding. There are many more people playing video games today then last generation, and the generation before, and the generation before (you get the point). So what's the harm in catering to these specific markets (that don't appreciate 1080p/60, or don't even know what it means)? Heck, it seems like Microsoft (http://kotaku.com/gaming/xtreme/microsoft-doesnt-want-hardcore-rep-anymore-267580.php), who was disinterested in this market is now scratching their heads trying to come up with a strategy to take some of this market (away from Nintendo).

JackAxe
Jun 18, 2007, 03:40 PM
You had to wait for Father's day. Bummer. :p

There are some areas that maybe could have been done better, but overall MP8 has been improved noticeably over the previous games. The characters and many background elements have been polished up, where as others have obviously been left quite simple, which goes back to my earlier low-poly style comment.

I've only noticed that the games not as smooth on HD sets. On a good CRT the game looks good and doesn't suffer from the roughness. Well given one likes this type of style. :o And speaking of HD, I was surprised that Nintendo simply framed the game into a 4:3 aspect when viewing on a widescreen.

Nintendo was still too nice this time around. I really miss some of the harsh chance events of earlier games like MP4. But MP8 overall is better than MP5 - MP7 IMO. I miss the repetitive button mini-games though, since I was king at these event.

Buy the taunting feature if you haven't already. :)

<]=)

JackAxe
Jun 18, 2007, 03:51 PM
That's very true. It's becoming an art style in itself, a few pixel art portfolio sites I visited years ago now host low poly galleries. I think it's great and only hope for a future less obsessed with forcing as many polygons out of a GPU.

And if you're expecting low-poly art, it's not an eye sore. On some of these uber-games that make heavy use of the realistic-plastic look, low polys only add to the eye sore. Nothing says realism like a photo mapped on to a hexagon shaped head. :)

I personally like working with in constraints for my art. OK, not my paintings. I spend much time fretting over details. And I know you do also, or you wouldn't be working with pixel art. :) Tis why I personally would like to develop for the DS and prior to its release the GBA.

<]=)

zero2dash
Jun 18, 2007, 05:47 PM
IMO Nintendo and their 3rd party developers need some ground breaking things to go along with their ground breaking console; enough with the motion based mini games that everyone is doing. I think that's where the Wii will succeed or fail - when they ultimately do or do not deliver more than just mini games and ports with motion controls. Give me something worth owning the system for. Nintendo aside - let's see some other developers come up with something. I loved my Gamecube for RE4 but by in large, RE4 was the only successful game for the Gamecube that wasn't from the house of Mario. I don't want to see a repeat of that.

As for the DS being a fad or not being a fad...it started out as such and since then other developers have come up with their own stuff for the DS that made it a worthwhile system; which is precisely what I want to see happen with the Wii.

I agree with what the guy said though because he's absolutely right. People (even the drones and casuals) will only digest so much of the same rehash games before they get sick of the system and trade them in droves. Developers need to quit with the 'make a fast buck' ideas and start actually putting some thought into the games and ideas that they come up with. What also kills me is people act like a company like EA supporting the system is a knight in shining armor, when I see it as a sharpening of the blade on the guillotine. :o No one needs EA...no one. EA is the king of the halfassed game releases.

JackAxe
Jun 18, 2007, 07:07 PM
Ground breaking and good 3rd party support are great for any system. They all need this. :) Sorry, but like my convoluted rants about thumb-twiddling, this point is getting a bit cliché. I say this only because the Wii like the PS3 is still in its infancy and developers are still busy at getting their better stuff ready.

The Wii is sitting strong right now and already has a healthy list of developers working away on new ideas for it, not just rehashes. But like anything, it takes time, not just 8 months. It took the DS a year and it's a simpler systems in terms of development.

3rd party developers don't seem to be given the chance to shine these days, mainly because the required budgets are astronomical in comparison to earlier game development costs. This forces them to rely on publishers like EA, whom won't give them as much freedom, because it's more of a risk. The only system that has been able to avoid this is the DS. This is only because of its much lower development cost. The Wii is really the only current TV console that has this to a degree and that alone will almost guarantee it succeeds. Small 3rd party development studios have sprouted up just to focus on the Wii and DS, so things are changing for the better. Even the fact that E3 scaled back so much says to me that the industry is tired of its current bloated-marketing-state.

EA has made some uber-crap over the past decade. This is sad, since they've aquired so many great studios. I think they've finally come around though, well partially, because they seem to be rethinking their strategies. I have nothing but praises when it comes to Madden on the Wii, but not so much for any of their other games. You can tell by the interviews which development teams at EA actually cared to make a good game. The director peep that made Tiger Woods, which is an OK game with some good points, really didn't have the same kind of enthusiasm as the team that made Madden.

Mini games bring friends and family together, there's allot to be said about that. Motion works better for these games than just pressing a button, so there's little chance will see that going away anytime soon. ;) I can't see people trading their systems in droves. This seems to be something younger gamers do, where as more recent polls have shown that the majority of gamers are people my age. People my age have less time for games, so mini games, quick games like WC3 DOTA, or quick death matches are the best solution for me and my friends.

<]=)

zero2dash
Jun 18, 2007, 07:40 PM
Ground breaking and good 3rd party support are great for any system. They all need this. :)

True, but the Wii needs it the most because it has the least to offer consumers, and Nintendo's last two home consoles had pathetic 3rd party support so they also need it to save face in the eyes of most gamer consumers.

The Wii is sitting strong right now and already has a healthy list of developers working away on new ideas for it, not just rehashes. But like anything, it takes time, not just 8 months.

Agreed. I hope that for everyone's sake, we're not complaining about a lack of interesting Wii titles by this time next year otherwise the system will be in a heap of trouble.

Mini games bring friends and family together, there's allot to be said about that. Motion works better for these games than just pressing a button, so there's little chance will see that going away anytime soon. ;)

Is it good to bring people together? Sure.
Does it need to become an integral part of the system's library? No. Enthusiastically - no.

If you want me to ballpark it or put a number out there - IMO no more than 10% of the console's library should be comprised of minigames. As it stands now...it's well over 10%. I won't argue semantics or compare game lists, but I know when I go into Blockbuster to look over the games they have for rent, the majority of the Wii titles I see I would classify as a minigame collection, and that's not a good thing (at least in my book).

I can't see people trading their systems in droves. This seems to be something younger gamers do, where as more recent polls have shown that the majority of gamers are people my age. People my age have less time for games, so mini games, quick games like WC3 DOTA, or quick death matches are the best solution for me and my friends.

This is a fine idea, and a fine sentiment, but when we're talking about a minigame collection being $20 or $30 as opposed to a full $50 or $60 dollars, then that's when I draw the line and say "there's a problem".

If I pay $50 or $60 for a game, I expect things like features I can take advantage of. I'm not saying multiplayer or online play is a deal breaker, but two games stacked side by side, one of which includes online play, multiplayer, online leaderboards, updates, patches, expansions, HD graphics and sound, etc. for the same $50 as another game that has local multiplayer and nothing more (ie outdated graphics and sound)- well I won't be purchasing that latter $50 that is missing all of those other features of game #1. I want more bang for my buck, period.

I'm sorry, but the Wii has one thing going for it in terms of hardware, and that's motion-based control (which is practically an all-or-nothing idea that they've thrown their hats into). There's nothing wrong with that, but if they (Nintendo and their 3rd parties) cannot grasp more ideas than what they have now, then the system is doomed. At least with the other two consoles, you get a lot more for your money, and you can usually count on other things remaining constant, which is high end graphics/sound and online support.

I've been gaming a long time (I'm 29) and I'm not jaded on Nintendo anymore. They screwed up quickly with the last two consoles of theirs I owned (and I've owned every Nintendo console except the Virtual Boy) and it's not something I'll just shrug off and say "that's ok, I grew up on Mario". I hope for their sake they turn things around, but if they don't...well don't expect me to be defending their actions this time around when people bring up a "why Nintendo f'd up" list. :o

Dagless
Jun 18, 2007, 08:22 PM
This is a fine idea, and a fine sentiment, but when we're talking about a minigame collection being $20 or $30 as opposed to a full $50 or $60 dollars, then that's when I draw the line and say "there's a problem".
If I pay $50 or $60 for a game, I expect things like features I can take advantage of. I'm not saying multiplayer or online play is a deal breaker, but two games stacked side by side, one of which includes online play, multiplayer, online leaderboards, updates, patches, expansions, HD graphics and sound, etc. for the same $50 as another game that has local multiplayer and nothing more (ie outdated graphics and sound)- well I won't be purchasing that latter $50 that is missing all of those other features of game #1. I want more bang for my buck, period.

Would it not matter if the games were good? Frankly I've had more fun in some minigames than full price games. I like Warioware (£30) so much I played through to completion and still play from time to time, on the same hand I played Gears of War (£50) and didn't play past the 2nd level. Even if Warioware was full price I wouldn't fret about spending that much. I measure games on level of enjoyment. I wouldn't mind paying £50 for a game so long as it's got replay levels of the Gods, heck since I lost Smash Bros Brawl once (and stolen once too) I've unregrettably spent a good £90 right there.


I've been gaming a long time (I'm 29) and I'm not jaded on Nintendo anymore. They screwed up quickly with the last two consoles of theirs I owned (and I've owned every Nintendo console except the Virtual Boy) and it's not something I'll just shrug off and say "that's ok, I grew up on Mario". I hope for their sake they turn things around, but if they don't...well don't expect me to be defending their actions this time around when people bring up a "why Nintendo f'd up" list. :o

Screwed up? In some respects. They screwed up the Virtual Boy completely. They gave me 3 of the highest rated games ever. Who's eyes are you looking at this through? The N64 was a huge failure, but from a gamers PoV it had 3 of the highest rated games ever. The Cube wasn't too big a failure, from a financial stand point it netted them total profit and to the gamer it gave them Zelda and the Prime series. Sales wise it was just behind the considerably more powerful, HDD and online capable and well marketed Xbox 1.

And the Wii and DS are evidence that Nintendo has taken all their prior mistakes on board. Kiddy system? Give them Manhunt 2, RE4 and Mortal Kombat updates, Killer 7 sequel.
No 3rd party support? Make it cheap and easy for anyone to develop for it.
No marketing? Let's knock them for six.
Then throw in some bonus points like a much lower price point for folks who can't afford the other systems and open it up to non-gamers.

I just hope the whole gaming market doesn't become a monopoly to Nintendo. They own the handheld and the monthly sales show the Wii is doing the same for consoles. I don't like monopolies :( *Microsoft*

They've still to learn about online. Still, at least its free and doesn't have me buying clothes for my Mii :D

sonarghost
Jun 18, 2007, 08:31 PM
Sega... Bleh, I miss the old days when they rocked. I'm glad to see peeps like you and your friend still pursuing pixel games. :) Even though no game in any way can ever be better than the greatness that is R-Type. It's a shooter religion now, so your comment is blasphemy. :p


<]=)

Man, I miss the good ol' Sega Genesis that system rocked.. I too was a really big shooter fan, loved R-Type (hard as hell though)

MacRumorUser
Jun 19, 2007, 04:27 AM
The N64 was a failure - not in the quality of some of its titles but in this sense.

Nintendo was the leader of the pack. It had outsold it's competitor Sega and others like Atari.

Yet due to complacency and it's insistence on sticking to a format that whilst allowing some years of copy protection and instant loading, hindered a lot of the development community who were woooed by the new kid on the block.

Sony came in - the naughty little upstart. "What did it know about gaming consoles ?" Nintendo laughed... But in the end it's marketing, new maturer format, and ability to attract developers who were looking for new ways of moving their games on - but hindered by size restrictions / cost of cartridge based medium.

In the space of 1 generation of consoles... Nintendo had lost the top spot in regards to home consoles.

That indeed can be seen as a massive failure. And it goes to show what happens when you become complacent in a marketplace. You dont decide what the consumer buys - the consumer does.

This was re-inforced with the incredible failure of the virtual boy. A sign that lessons were still being learned.




In many ways if it had not been for the mammoth success of the gameboy handhelds - Nintendo may not be with us now. Another possible Sega. Thankfully they did and they are still here.


Now...

However if we look at today.... That situation has almost gone the direct opposite, and the once jumpy little upstart 'Sony' who took on and became the giant of home consoles - is now looking a little sad.

It too has become complacent. It too said 'you will buy' dictate methodology rather than listening to what the consumers actually want.

And now it finds itself in the unenviable task of being in current 'third place'

If in 5 years the PS3 is still bottom of the sales pile, I'm sure it too in 10 years time will be seen as a 'failure'....





But....

Nintendo do need to get those bloody games out. The games that attract as much enthusiasm as Wii Sports. I mean where is Wii Sports 2 ? Why are games like BrainAge taking SO long to come out of the burner. These are not overly complex games, but they are the games that have attracted 'new audiences' - the very same new audiences who for the last 8 months have been criminally ignored.

And as for releasing PAL versions 6 or months later. I question if they really understand the European market, especially in 2007, when we are used to near identical cinema / dvd / cd releases. When the age of waiting for stuff has been done away with thanks to the digital medium.

Nintendo have done an amazing job getting the Wii into peoples homes. They have done a god damn awful job so far of following that up.

Apart from gamers - I know very few of the original people who bought the Wii at christmas for wii sports fun - who are still using the machine. It has in many ways become the Breville Sandwich Toaster, every home has one.... but who's using them ? ;)

So complacency is still there.

A follow up to a free 'demo' which is still the pinacle of 'wii gaming' is still not here. That is BAD in anyones books.




-----


Only time will tell.

takao
Jun 19, 2007, 05:01 AM
yeah gotta agree with MRU, the public conception of failure is always a relative one, after all the the xbox sold less than the n64 and is considered a success simply because they started at zero and not with 50 million

also with the industry learning from errors: i think the next one will be blockbuster bubble bursting
seriously... a game which did cost 20 mio to develop and having a promotion and marketing budget of another 20 millions simply not gonna work out over the long terms.. how much do they have to sell to break even ? 1,5 millions ?
and that's for a game like Lost Planet

just look at take2 who had the most successful game series of the last generation with GTA with more than 36 millions sold just for ps2 and PC hits like civ4, pirates! etc. yet they barely survive financially

edit: on the euro delay.. boy i wished they would finally sort that out without sacrificing on the translation but on the other side it's understandable why for _some_ titles it's very difficult especially for japanese developed games... sure the Uk and ireland have to pay the biggest price of course ;)
that said i'm rather happy that they finally translate nearly all games released and not like 10-15 years ago where you could be happy if you had 2-3 on the console games shelf
actually the slowest translators of today Nintendo and Square where best known for actually offering their games translated to german
and overall it helped the console industry a lot for catching more of the game market from the PC

actually it's really difficult for japanese developers to even find native speaking testers for translated versions especially for italian or german.. jobs listing which read like "native german/italian speaker, english, passion for video games, willing to work in japan for 4-8 months" are regularly showing up and i actually know somebody who did such a thing

Haoshiro
Jun 19, 2007, 08:25 AM
Sure, it could be called a "relative" failure, but that is besides the point.

It wasn't a market failure, it still sold well. It wasn't even a failure in terms of games. There are many great games on the system.

I suppose you could say it wasn't a "complete" failure, but honestly, the only thing it really failed at was selling more then the PlayStation.

I don't even think the hardware bad, and it certainly didn't much limit developers. What's the big deal with CD media? What did it bring to games? Besides lowering media cost, all it really did was allow FMV and CD Audio. Two things games can exist just fine without.

Look at XBLA and PSN games. These games are often extremely small compared to the full disc games, and people love them... most could have easily been done on older systems like N64. Look at DS and GBA games... minus the touch controls (which only a handful use really well), these games would have been perfect for N64/SNES.

PS may have given developers CDs, but the benefits weren't more then what Sega did with it's horrid "Sega CD", FMV and CD Audio... ooh ahh. I'd take an N64 with it's 32MB OoT anyday, along with Starfox, Goldeneye, etc. :D

zero2dash
Jun 19, 2007, 08:56 AM
When I say "failure", my argument is that the N64 and Gamecube were decent systems in their own right, when you take into fact the Nintendo games released for the system. But that's all they really had in the latter lifecycle of each system, respectively. 3rd parties jumped ship rather quickly with both systems. Now, it's fine and dandy that they have the support now and 3rd part devs are talking up the Wii as the second coming, but...let's see how devoted these companies are in a few years. That's my problem with the Wii. Maybe I'm apprehensive to throw my "Wii love" into the mix, but...I'm quite apprehensive because I've been burned by the last two Nintendo home consoles I bought.

At the end of their lives, the only reason to own either system was because of Nintendo's games; that's not something I want to happen as a Wii owner. The DS is the lone exception to the rule, because there's still a huge amount of 3rd party support for the system that I don't think will fade away like it did with the last two home consoles. But what about the Wii? How long will these companies keep their interest and see it as a viable platform? Sure, they can say "well, we're in it for the long haul" but IMO that's only because it's the sales king right now. What if that doesn't hold up after a year? Two years? Will they stick around?

I applaud Nintendo for being a little "out there" and pushing the envelope, but at what expense? Go against the grain to satisfy the needs and urges of some gamers, but don't alienate the people who would like to still be able to play with a traditional control scheme. Granted, I knew that when going in and buying a Wii; that I was buying a console centered around a newfangled control scheme.

Something I was thinking about the other day...in relation to console power and how I used to think it didn't matter. I was watching the video for Splinter Cell: Conviction and while the graphics were really good, all I kept thinking was "wow, the power of the 360 will enable the world inside the game to be more lifelike than ever" and I think that's the point I've missed up until now. Power doesn't necessarily mean pretty visuals or framerates; power can also be equally as important in terms of constructing the world or story that you're playing in. It was at that moment that I was proud to own a 360 and realize that I could look forward to some games that really showcased the cpu power that is now available to developers and gamers alike.

I'm not trying to piss on the Wii (no pun intended, I swear :p), but like MRU said...where's the games? Wii Sports was/is huge. Where's a sequel? With online play, if you would be so kind, Nintendo? People can say "well, Mario Galaxy is coming, so is Metroid Prime 3: Corruption", to which I say...and...what's after that? It's almost like they're putting enough out there to keep people moderately interested, but their long term vision just isn't there yet. And, couple that in with the "burn" factor of 2 prior Nintendo consoles, and I think you can now understand why I'm a little leery of jumping for joy into the "Wii party". :o

sikkinixx
Jun 19, 2007, 09:06 AM
Sure, it could be called a "relative" failure, but that is besides the point.

It wasn't a market failure, it still sold well. It wasn't even a failure in terms of games. There are many great games on the system.

I suppose you could say it wasn't a "complete" failure, but honestly, the only thing it really failed at was selling more then the PlayStation.



But for most it will still be a 'failure' because it didn't win. Just like now when people look at the PSP and say "well, Sony is d00med in the handheld market! the DS sells 10x as many!" but the PSP is still selling a lot of units, in May is was in 3rd place ater the DS/Wii no?

Dagless
Jun 19, 2007, 09:14 AM
I'm not trying to piss on the Wii (no pun intended, I swear :p), but like MRU said...where's the games? Wii Sports was/is huge. Where's a sequel? With online play, if you would be so kind, Nintendo?

Funny. I thought SSX Blur, Metal Slug, Mario Football, Mercury Revolution and Excite Truck were good games.
Wii Sports 2 better not have online play, or they had better take very good steps to ensure against lag. It all but destroys any of the 360 or PC games I play now. I try to avoid any games with a ping more than 20. And LOL, the Wii has been out 7 months and you want a sequel to it's flagship sports game? It isn't coming anytime soon. But Wii Music and Wii Motorsports are.

People can say "well, Mario Galaxy is coming, so is Metroid Prime 3: Corruption", to which I say...and...what's after that? It's almost like they're putting enough out there to keep people moderately interested, but their long term vision just isn't there yet. And, couple that in with the "burn" factor of 2 prior Nintendo consoles, and I think you can now understand why I'm a little leery of jumping for joy into the "Wii party". :o

I don't get this comment. Doesn't this apply to every video game system? After Halo 3 what will I have to look forward to? After HL2 Episode 2 what PC game have I got left? What about Zelda and Sim City on the DS?
I tell you what I normally do - buy games now. Look forward to upcoming games, and not worrying whats happening beyond them since games get announced all the time.
After Prime/Smash Bros/Galaxy I have the true Wii Zelda game to look forward to. After that? Who knows. Wii Sports 2 in late 2008? Who cares at that expanse.

Dagless
Jun 19, 2007, 09:18 AM
But for most it will still be a 'failure' because it didn't win. Just like now when people look at the PSP and say "well, Sony is d00med in the handheld market! the DS sells 10x as many!" but the PSP is still selling a lot of units, in May is was in 3rd place ater the DS/Wii no?

Answer me these questions 3 - is the system making a profit yet? What's the attach rate? Will Sony pull a MS in that despite the catastrophic loss of the Xbox 1, they continue in the market?

zero2dash
Jun 19, 2007, 10:10 AM
Funny. I thought SSX Blur, Metal Slug, Mario Football, Mercury Revolution and Excite Truck were good games.

I have no experience with any of those games and honestly I'm not really that interested in them. SSX went downhill after Tricky IMO, Metal Slug I've played since the NeoGeo days, and Excite Truck looks like a rental to me. Mario Soccer may be a good game, but playing against the computer in multiplayer sports games is not something I like doing, so most likely I won't bother with that one for that reason.

Wii Sports 2 better not have online play, or they had better take very good steps to ensure against lag. It all but destroys any of the 360 or PC games I play now. I try to avoid any games with a ping more than 20.

I haven't had lag in 360 or PC games in god knows how long.

And LOL, the Wii has been out 7 months and you want a sequel to it's flagship sports game?

Would it really take that long to make?
Is Wii Sports complex or deep? No. It's a glorified tech demo.
They could put together a sequel with at least double the sports or activities in a few months and release to retail by Christmas.

And referring to Wii Sports as a "flagship sports game" does not bode well for the future. ;)

Doesn't this apply to every video game system? After Halo 3 what will I have to look forward to? After HL2 Episode 2 what PC game have I got left? What about Zelda and Sim City on the DS?

I tell you what I normally do - buy games now. Look forward to upcoming games, and not worrying whats happening beyond them since games get announced all the time.

Sorry, but that's a foolish way of thinking when it pertains to a Nintendo console.

And no, it doesn't apply to every video game system, because I have no worries about continued 3rd party support on those other systems.

The Wii's announced future lineup, sans Nintendo's titles, leaves a lot to be desired IMO.

Dagless
Jun 19, 2007, 10:50 AM
I have no experience with any of those games

Discussion over. You can't criticise the games and not play them. Anyone got that Paper Mario screenshot to hand? Hell, I was castrated and my opinion disregarded for putting only a few hours into Oblivion. So I'm sorry. Without experience you can't talk about games being rentals or whatever. Go out and play them if you like games so much.

Oh, and Excite Truck 2 is rumoured to be in the making. Be silly not to make a sequel for that going off how fun the original was.

The Wii's announced future lineup, sans Nintendo's titles, leaves a lot to be desired IMO.

IMO I'm looking forward to Mercury Revolution, Manhunt 2, BWii, Final Fantasy, Tomb Raider, Tony Hawks, that EA dance game, Guitar Hero 3, Guilty Gear, Midnight, NiGHTS 2, RE4 Wii, Sadness and Soul Calibur are all under my radar and they're not Nintendo developed games. If none of them take your fancy then fair play. But 3rd parties are bringing stuff out for the Wii and as the system continues to soar there will be more devs joining the party.

Not to mention the Nintendo stuff like Mario Kart, F-Zero, Smash Bros, Metroid, Mario, Zelda, Kirby, Fire Emblem... and I want to limit my game purhcases now I'm 21.

MacRumorUser
Jun 19, 2007, 11:02 AM
edit: on the euro delay.. boy i wished they would finally sort that out without sacrificing on the translation but on the other side it's understandable why for _some_ titles it's very difficult especially for japanese developed games... sure the Uk and ireland have to pay the biggest price of course ;)

That's true for japanese text heavy RPG's - but most games are not like that.
Why do microsoft and sony offer near simultaneous release schedules in moat teritories ? Language translation for most games is done during development as an ongoing thing - and not somthing grafted on after the game is finished.

So there's still no excuse. Super Paper Mario, Trauma Center, Elebits ? Can they justify the 6 month or more delay ?



Would it really take that long to make?
Is Wii Sports complex or deep? No. It's a glorified tech demo.
They could put together a sequel with at least double the sports or activities in a few months and release to retail by Christmas.

And referring to Wii Sports as a "flagship sports game" does not bode well for the future. ;)



Exactly my point.

e²Studios
Jun 19, 2007, 11:10 AM
Discussion over. You can't criticise the games and not play them.

Why can't he? You do the same exact thing. ;) Excite truck while somewhat fun lost my interest in about 2 hours of play, there is nothing groundbreaking nor revolutionary about the Wii. I have a feeling if Nintendo released a steaming pile of cow dung you would be here telling us how innovative and revolutionary it is. :p

Zero & MRU have nailed it spot on imo, good posts from both of you.

Ed

Dagless
Jun 19, 2007, 11:45 AM
Hold up, so Z2D can say the Wii's lineup is pants without playing the games on it. Where have I ever said the same? I have all systems under my roof and play them when free time arises.
Heh, I remember a while ago I joked about taking photographic evidence of me playing these games ;) I didn't know you'd actually want that.

And if revolutionary isn't being addicted to a genre I previously didn't care about due only to the controls - then I don't know what is. What would you call it Ed?

Aaaand why do the SDF not answer my questions regarding their gaming tastes and system requirements whilst Sony was on the back end of the power systems? :(

takao
Jun 19, 2007, 11:53 AM
That's true for japanese text heavy RPG's - but most games are not like that.
Why do microsoft and sony offer near simultaneous release schedules in moat teritories ? Language translation for most games is done during development as an ongoing thing - and not somthing grafted on after the game is finished.

you mean sony and it's kingdom hearts and god of war .. remember those EU, and with god of war german, delays ? or how about namco's katamari ?



So there's still no excuse. Super Paper Mario, Trauma Center, Elebits ? Can they justify the 6 month or more delay ?

one is Nintendo, one is Atlus, one is Konami

if they can justify it: i don't know ...i haven't asked them

that said i take a delayed but good translation over a simultaneous but crappy translation

edit: about wii sports 2: if they had announced it i guess quite a few would complain about that too being already announced
i'm actually quite happy they don't pull a call of duty and already anounce the 7 while the 6. isn't even released yet ..(yep it's actually seven and not 4)

MacRumorUser
Jun 19, 2007, 12:12 PM
you mean sony and it's kingdom hearts and god of war .. remember those EU, and with god of war german, delays ? or how about namco's katamari ?

one is Nintendo, one is Atlus, one is Konami

if they can justify it: i don't know ...i haven't asked them

that said i take a delayed but good translation over a simultaneous but crappy translation

Takao :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Now your being pedantic and it doesn't suit.


Kingdom Hearts is Square Enix / Disney if your going to be like that ;)



When I said nintendo - I clearly meant games on that format. Also nintendo do control the manufacture of all Wii games.

Furthermore what I meant was - With the current generation of game machines PS3 / 360 there is pretty much same or next week release between their western release.

This is how all the formats should be these days. Wii is no exception.

So taking Wii games like the ones I mentioned, I find it very hard to justify the 7 month delay - especially with the Pal lineup so utter crap as it is.

And the point which you missed was not who published the bleeding games, but the fact that you would hardly call Elebits a majestic tour de force for reading material would you ?

If SplinterCell can be released throughout the world in the same month, with full localisation - why cant this be the defacto standard.

In 2007 it's simply not acceptable in my book - except under cases such as the Jap RPG problems.

Now I have little more to add on the subject, but to keep saying that it's ok to accept this shoddy treatment, because it gives us better translations - well have you read the dialog in Animal Crossing.. Wow there's obviously script writing talent gone into that epic to cause nintendo to release the game 18 months after its USA release ;)

localisation as I have already stated - for the most part is an ongoing process throughout the development of a game, and not somthing that is simply started at the end of production.

So the extra development time for localisation issue whilst applicable in some circumstances, for the most part is irrelevant these days.

BoyBach
Jun 19, 2007, 01:10 PM
Nintendo was the leader of the pack. It had outsold it's competitor Sega and others like Atari.

Yet due to complacency and it's insistence on sticking to a format that whilst allowing some years of copy protection and instant loading, hindered a lot of the development community who were woooed by the new kid on the block.


Thus proving the videogame truism that nobody can dominate three successive 'generations'.

pcypert
Jun 19, 2007, 01:47 PM
I think the Wii is just as solid as anything else out there and offers some unique options for folks who love classic gameplay. So far it fits perfectly into my schedule and lifestyle. I have the mini games and simpler games (VC, Brain Age, Wii Sports, etc) for times when I have a few mintues to sit down and game and I have an epic or two for when I want to spend a couple hours playing a game.

The first one of those was quite good...Zelda...a different game than Oblivion but as good in its own ways.

Beat it and this week ResWii comes out. So now I have another longer story line game to play. I don't need 40 such games.

FPS's to me are about the "twitch" or the quick movements and surprises more than the visuals. Especially first time through...I'm so tense I'm hardly looking at anything. It was a long time before I knew what the bad guys looked like in GeOW...so I could be just as happy playing a well made, great level shooter than an ultra life like one.

Paul

zero2dash
Jun 19, 2007, 02:56 PM
Discussion over. You can't criticise the games and not play them.

I didn't criticize any of them, short of saying I'm not interested in them. That is a perfectly acceptable thing to say to fellow open minded individuals, is it not? :p

Anyone got that Paper Mario screenshot to hand?
/snip
Without experience you can't talk about games being rentals or whatever.

1) I've only rented Paper Mario, and I had fun with it while I had it. Purchasing the game long term will not happen because it has little to no replayability. I'll probably rent it again, finish it, and that'll be the end of that.

2) Without experience I can call any game a "rental" because that's my own personal opinion. If a game doesn't look jaw-dropping interesting or has little to no long-term features, then by all means, at $60 a pop, I'll rent every damn game 'til my heart's content. Most of the games you mentioned are either sequels to something I've already played, or an idea I've already witnessed, just with a different control style. Is that worth $60 to you? Because it isn't worth $60 to me. Therefore = rental.


IMO I'm looking forward to Mercury Revolution, Manhunt 2, BWii, Final Fantasy, Tomb Raider, Tony Hawks, that EA dance game, Guitar Hero 3, Guilty Gear, Midnight, NiGHTS 2, RE4 Wii, Sadness and Soul Calibur are all under my radar and they're not Nintendo developed games. If none of them take your fancy then fair play. But 3rd parties are bringing stuff out for the Wii and as the system continues to soar there will be more devs joining the party.

The majority of those titles are also multiplatform and available with better graphics and sound and online support for the competitor's consoles. Sorry...Wii loses out on that aspect. Ones that you mentioned that are exclusives...I'll check out Sadness; I was already planning on that much. RE4Wii I may buy despite beating the Gamecube version 7x on Normal and 4x on Pro and doing everything else possible in the game. Given the Wii version vs. the Ps2 one (for the Ada add-on missions), I'll get the Wii one...if I don't get rid of my Wii first.

Not to mention the Nintendo stuff like Mario Kart, F-Zero, Smash Bros, Metroid, Mario, Zelda, Kirby, Fire Emblem... and I want to limit my game purhcases now I'm 21.

Again...after those games, what's left?
Take out what Nintendo has and what is multiplatform.
What is a Wii exclusive? What's coming?
Sadness is one, fair enough.

See my point? ;)

Zero & MRU have nailed it spot on imo, good posts from both of you.

Ed

Thanks Ed. :D

Hold up, so Z2D can say the Wii's lineup is pants without playing the games on it.

Again, I fairly criticized a few things and asked a few questions; I never said the library was "pants". "It leaves a lot to be desired" is far different than saying "the Wii's library is ****".

In a nutshell, these are my problems with the Wii:

Long term exclusive wise - it's scary.

Online support - is poor to lackluster (ignoring the fact that it's not "active" yet...Friend Codes are the bastardization of DS WiFi and despite public outcry, Nintendo's too scared to shield little children from trash talking [despite no voice chat features being available], so they roll on with Friend Codes which is dumb.

Reasons to own the system - once you get past the first few weeks of play (or even months, which is where I ended up)... if they don't start churning out new games with new ways to play (as they intended and advertise) as opposed to minigame gimmick fests, the Wii is doomed. Sorry, but it is. Game wise, the Wii right now has a few games that push the envelope, a bunch of minigame compilations, and a ton of multiplatform titles. Nintendo's offerings are few and far between thus far (which is sad considering it's their system), multiplatform titles are the weakest on the Wii, and the minigame stuff I've already given my two cents on those.

[Anyone can] badmouth the 360/Ps3 all you want (Ps3 moreso because the library is still in infant stages), but you cannot deny the other areas both systems excel in. Online features, downloads, other features (dvd/blu-ray), HD support...those are things I can always count on being a constant and 'being there' with the 360 and Ps3. The Wii is a wild card with a huge take off but the end question remains...will the Wii take off and remain a force like a space shuttle, or will it fizz out and pop like a bottle rocket? Only time will tell.

Haoshiro
Jun 19, 2007, 03:30 PM
Does a game have to be exclusive to count as third-party? No, of course not.

Same goes for GameCube, it had plenty of good third-party titles. MGS: Twin Snakes, Chibi-Robo, Beyond Good and Evil, Resident Evil 4, Time Splitters 2, Soul Calibur 2, Viewtiful Joe, Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles... and plenty more.

It always seems like the people complaining don't actually pay attention to the systems they are complaining about.

Let's infuse some facts into this thread, neither Zero or MRU (respect) have this going for them right now, at least not in this thread it seem! :)

Wii - List of Wii Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wii_games)

- 277 Total Games
- 24 published by Nintendo
= <9%

So far, that's 91% of the games coming to the system being published by third-parties.

GameCube - List of GameCube Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GameCube_games)

- 648 Total Games
- 59 published by Nintendo
= <10%

90% of the software was third-party.

Nintendo 64 - List of N64 Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N64_games)

- 396 Total Games
- 56 published by Nintendo
= <15%

85% of the software was third-party.

Coded-Dude
Jun 19, 2007, 03:46 PM
Yes, but then lets post Wii game sales to compare.

Games that made Monthly/Weekly Top Ten sellers:
Wii Play
Wii Sports
Super Paper Mario
WarioWare Smooth Moves
Legend of Zelda
*The games listed below are from JPN weekly numbers, and only made it on the list for one or two weeks*
Biohazard 4: Wii Edition
Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree
One Piece: Unlimited Adventure

So while we can all agree that the percentage of 3rd party games is definitely greater, sales are far worse.

zero2dash
Jun 19, 2007, 03:47 PM
Same goes for GameCube, it had plenty of good third-party titles. MGS: Twin Snakes, Chibi-Robo, Beyond Good and Evil, Resident Evil 4, Time Splitters 2, Soul Calibur 2, Viewtiful Joe, Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles... and plenty more.

I'm not saying previous Nintendo consoles have had nothing but bad third party titles, and most of those games you mentioned (albeit multiplatform) were good games. However - this is my point - ignore multiplatform and ignore Nintendo.

Case in point - let's look at Sega systems of the past (and especially the import market, something I know about).

The majority of the great Saturn games, for instance...all imports - were 3rd party. Capcom, Treasure, SNK. Most of the Sega branded Saturn games were crap.

Most of the great Dreamcast games, also mainly imports...3rd party. Lots of Capcom and SNK. Sega had better success with their own Dreamcast titles than they did with their Saturn offerings, but still.

Move on to a Nintendo system. (any of them recently...post-SNES)

They had good third party titles, but not an overabundance of them. Sorry - that's what I'm looking for. There's only so much that Nintendo can do and only so much Nintendo can come up with on their own. Ignore Nintendo for a minute, leaving third party only.

Third party only - the Wii compared to the competition is incredibly weak.
Does it have a sizeable library? Sure. That really doesn't mean squat though. You can argue that back in the day, for every 1 great Playstation 1 game on the shelves, you'd fine 30 that were utter trash. I'm not saying Nintendo consoles suffer the same fate, but let's be honest with each other...in terms of software, there is no "strength in numbers".

Let's infuse some facts into this thread, neither Zero or MRU (respect) have this going for them right now, at least not in this thread it seem! :)

Wii - List of Wii Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wii_games)

- 277 Total Games
- 24 published by Nintendo
= <9%

So far, that's 91% of the games coming to the system being published by third-parties.

...and again, I can appreciate that. Thanks for posting the numbers, Hao.

But [following my preceding argument], out of those third party published titles, which are exclusives? 40%? 30%? 20%? Less than 20%?

Microsoft has a pretty fairly good amount of exclusives, third party. So does Sony. Nintendo...not so much. I'm not saying "third party exclusives determine a console's fate", but what I am saying is that a clear abundance of third party exclusives shows a) the support is there and b) it looks like it will be longterm support. As of this moment, coupled with the past history of Nintendo's consoles and their 3rd party problems...as well as practically everything the Sega exec said (getting back OT) - I do not have faith in the Wii as a long term viable game system. I hope one or two or even three years from now I eat my words and there's 50 Wii games I own that are all incredible. But I'm not holding my breath on those dreams...

ChrisK018
Jun 19, 2007, 03:52 PM
Haoshiro-- interesting percentages there. Are the numbers for X-box/360 PS 1,2 and 3 similar?

Coded-Dude
Jun 19, 2007, 03:58 PM
Top Game Sales:
PS:

1. Gran Turismo - 10.84 million (Japan 2.55, NA 3 .99, Euro 4.30)
2. Final Fantasy VII - 9.72 million (Japan 3.93, NA 3.09, Euro 2.70)
3. Gran Turismo 2 - 9.34 million (Japan 1.71, NA 3.96, Euro 3.67)
4. Final Fantasy VIII - 7.86 million (Japan 3.64, NA 2.34, Euro 1.88)
5. Crash Bandicoot 2: Cortex Strikes Back - 7.61 million (Japan 1.33, NA 3.91, Euro 2.37)
6. Crash Bandicoot 3 - 7.13 million (Japan 1.45, NA 3.77, Euro 1.91)
7. Tekken 3 - 6.91 million (Japan 1.40, NA 3.09, Euro 2.42)
8. Metal Gear Solid - 6.6 million *
9. Crash Bandicoot - 6.54 million (Japan 0.90, NA 3.32, Euro 2.57)
10. Driver - 6.17 million (Japan 0.02, NA 3.09, Euro 3.06)
11. Resident Evil 2 - 5.82 million (Japan 2.28, NA 1.93, Euro 1.61)
12. Tekken 2 - 5.45 million (Japan 1.37, NA 2.02, Euro 2.06)
13. Final Fantasy IX - 5.30 million (Japan 2.80, NA 1.66, Euro 0.84)
14. Resident Evil - 5.05 million (Japan 1.68, NA 2.10, Euro 1.27)
15. Tomb Raider II - 4.94 million (Japan 0.20, NA 2.05, Euro 2.69)
16. Spyro the Dragon - 4.74 million (Japan 0.07, NA 3.35, Euro 1.49)
17. Driver 2 - 4.73 million (Japan 0.02, NA 2.42, Euro 2.29)
18. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2 - 4.56 million (Japan 0.02, NA 3.02, Euro 1.54)
19. Tomb Raider - 4.45 million (Japan 0.14, NA 2.16, Euro 2.15)
20. Dragon Quest VII - 4.33 million (Japan 4.12, NA 0.21, Euro 0.00??)


PS2:

1. Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec - 14.36 million (Japan 1.89, NA 6.88, Euro 5.59)
2. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City - 13.63 million (Japan 0.47, NA 7.81, Euro 5.35)
3. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas - 13.44 million (Japan 0.00, NA 7.36, Euro 6.08)
4. Grand Theft Auto III - 11.42 million (Japan 0.36, NA 6.48, Euro 4.58)
5. Final Fantasy X - 7.93 million (Japan 3.02, NA 2.72, Euro 2.19)
6. Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty - 7.01 million *
7. Gran Turismo 4 - 6.58 million (Japan 1.09, NA 2.00, Euro 3.49)
8. Need for Speed Underground - 6.47 million (Japan 0.08, NA 2.97, Euro 3.42)
9. Medal of Honor: Frontline - 6.22 million (Japan 0.17, NA 2.73, Euro 3.32)
10. Need for Speed Underground 2 - 6.12 million (Japan 0.08, NA 2.37, Euro 3.67)
11. Kingdom Hearts - 5.21 million (Japan 1.24, NA 3.16, Euro 0.81)
12. Final Fantasy X-2 - 5.14 million (Japan 2.41, NA 1.75, Euro 0.98)
13. Crash Bandicoot: The Wrath of Cortex - 4.93 million (Japan 0.24, NA 1.91, Euro 2.78)
14. Dragon Quest VIII - 4.68 million (Japan 3.61, NA 0.47, Euro 0.60)
15. Medal of Honor: Rising Sun - 4.61 million (Japan 0.13, NA 1.77, Euro 2.71)
16. Spider-Man - 4.28 million (Japan 0.03, NA 2.46, Euro 1.79)
17. The Lord of the Rings: Two Towers - 4.24 million (Japan 0.08, NA 1.80, Euro 2.36)
18. Madden NFL 2004 - 4.08 million (Japan 0.00, NA 3.97, Euro 0.11)
19. The Simpsons Hit & Run - 4.01 million (Japan 0.00, NA 1.54, Euro 2.47)
20. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 - 3.95 million (Japan 0.01, NA 2.43, Euro 1.51)


PSP

1. Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories - 2.85 million (Japan 0.00, NA 1.16, Euro 1.69)
2. Ridge Racer - 1.04 million (Japan 0.34, NA 0.31, Euro 0.39)
3. Hot Shots Golf: Open Tee - 1.00 million (Japan 0.54, NA 0.21, Euro 0.25)


N64:

1. Super Mario 64 - 11.89 million (Japan 1.92, NA 6.87, Euro 3.10)
2. Mario Kart 64 - 9.87 million (Japan 2.24, NA 5.52, Euro 2.11)
3. GoldenEye 007 - 8.09 million (Japan 0.13, NA 5.77, Euro 2.19)
4. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - 7.60 million (Japan 1.46, NA 4.08, Euro 2.06)
5. Super Smash Bros. - 5.55 million (Japan 1.97, NA 2.93, Euro 0.65)
6. Pokémon Stadium - 5.46 million (Japan 0.95, NA 3.16, Euro 1.35)
7. Donkey Kong 64 - 5.27 million (Japan 1.10, NA 3.31, Euro 0.86)
8. Diddy Kong Racing - 4.88 million (Japan 0.91, NA 2.89, Euro 1.08)
9. Star Fox 64 - 4 million (Japan 0.61, NA 2.76, Euro 0.63)
10. Banjo-Kazooie - 3.65 million (Japan 0.56, NA 1.86, Euro 1.23)
11. Pokémon Snap - 3.63 million (Japan 0.67, NA 2.22, Euro 0.74)
12. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask - 3.36 million (Japan 0.74, NA 1.89, Euro 0.73)
13. Star Wars: Episode I Racer - 3.10 million (Japan 0.12, NA 2.30, Euro 0.68)
14. Wave Race 64 - 2.94 million (Japan 0.34, NA 1.97, Euro 0.63)
15. Yoshi's Story - 2.85 million (Japan 0.99, NA 1.28, Euro 0.58)
16. Mario Party - 2.70 million (Japan 0.88, NA 1.24, Euro 0.58)
17. Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire - 2.60 million (Japan 0.07, NA 1.99, Euro 0.54)
18. Pokémon Stadium 2 - 2.54 million (Japan 1.14, NA 1.01, Euro 0.39)
19. Perfect Dark - 2.52 million (Japan 0.16, NA 1.54, Euro 0.82)
20. Mario Party 2 - 2.49 million (Japan 1.07, NA 1.27, Euro 0.15)


GameCube:

1. Super Smash Bros. Melee - 6.05 million (Japan 1.39, NA 3.60, Euro 1.06)
2. Mario Kart: Double Dash!! - 6.01 million (Japan 0.87, NA 3.36, Euro 1.78)
3. Super Mario Sunshine - 5.56 million (Japan 0.85, NA 3.42, Euro 1.29)
4. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker - 4.32 million (Japan 0.86, NA 2.41, Euro 1.05)
5. Luigi's Mansion - 3.27 million (Japan 0.42, NA 2.13, Euro 0.72)
5. Metroid Prime - 2.77 million (Japan 0.12, NA 1.92, Euro 0.73)
6. Pokémon Colosseum - 2.50 million (Japan 0.71, NA 1.17, Euro 0.62)
7. Mario Party 4 - 2.43 million (Japan 0.91, NA 1.13, Euo 0.39)
8. Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - 2.33 million (Japan 0.23, NA 1.46, Euro 0.64)
9. Animal Crossing - 2.24 million (Japan 0.66, NA 1.43, Euro 0.15)
10. Mario Party 5 - 2.01 million (Japan 0.69, NA 0.96, Euro 0.36)
11. Star Wars Rogue Squadron II: Rogue Leader - 1.88 million (Japan 0.03, NA 1.03, Euro 0.82)
12. Star Fox Adventures - 1.85 million (Japan 0.32, NA 0.95, Euro 0.58)
13. Sonic Mega Collection - 1.80 million (Japan 0.07, NA 1.29, Euro 0.44)
14. Pikmin - 1.61 million (Japan 0.56, NA 0.78, Euro 0.27)
15. Mario Party 6 - 1.54 million (Japan 0.58, NA 0.85, Euro 0.11)
16. Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door - 1.51 million (Japan 0.46, NA 0.79, Euro 0.26)
17. Soul Calibur 2 - 1.48 million (Japan 0.14, NA 0.99, Euro 0.35)
18. Resident Evil 4 - 1.44 million (Japan 0.22, NA 0.81, Euro 0.41)
19. Sonic Heroes - 1.43 million (Japan 0.06, NA 0.89, Euro 0.48)
20. Resident Evil - 1.40 million (Japan 0.36, NA 0.63,Euro 0.41)


DS

1. Nintendogs - 6.91 million (Japan 1.34, NA 2.61, Euro 2.96)
2. Animal Crossing: Wild World - 4.44 million (Japan 3.06, NA 0.71, Euro 0.67)
3. Mario Kart DS - 4.43 million (Japan 1.52, NA 1.59, Euro 1.32)
4. New Super Mario Bros. - 3.93 million *
5. Super Mario 64 DS - 3.72 million (Japan 0.99, NA 1.67, Euro 1.06)
6. Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day - 2.88 million (Japan 2.66, NA 0.22, Euro 0.00)
7. Dr. Kawashima’s Brain Training 2 - 2.80 million (Japan 2.80, NA 0.00, Euro 0.00)
8. WarioWare: Touched! - 1.97 million (Japan 1.04, NA 0.51, Euro 0.42)
9. Big Brain Academy - 1.27 million (Japan 1.27, NA 0.00, Euro 0.00)
10. Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time - 1.27 million (Japan 0.47, Na 0.55, Euro 0.25)
11. Tamagotchi Connection: Corner Shop - 1.18 million (Japan 1.10, NA 0.08, Euro 0.00)
12. English Training - 1.18 million *
13. Tetris DS - 1.06 million (Japan 0.80, NA0.16, Euro 0.10)

* Global breakdown figures for New Super Mario Bros and English Training were not current but total sales are current.


Xbox:

1. Halo 2 - 7.75 million (Japan 0.11, NA 5.81, Euro 1.83)
2. Halo: Combat Evolved - 6.61 million (Japan 0.10, NA 4.92, Euro 1.59)
3. Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell - 3 million (Japan 0.00, NA 1.78, Euro 1.22)
4. Fable - 2.39 million (Japan 0.00, NA 1.77, Euro 0.62)
5. Grand Theft Auto: Double Pack - 2.26 million (Japan 0.00, NA 1.62, Euro 2.26)
6. Project Gotham Racing - 2.14 million (Japan 0.05, NA 1.40, Euro 0.69)
7. Need for Speed: Underground 2 - 2.05 million (Japan 0.00, NA 1.19, Euro 0.86)
8. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic - 1.95 million) (Japan 0.00. NA 1.46, Euro 0.49)
9. Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon - 1.70 million (Japan 0.00, NA 1.18, Euro 0.52)
10. Need for Speed: Underground - 1.64 million (Japan 0.00, NA 1.02, Euro 0.62)
11. Star Wars: Battlefront - 1.59 million (Japan 0.00, NA 1.08, Euro 0.51)
12. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six 3 - 1.58 million (Japan 0.00, NA 0.93, Euro 0.65)
13. Project Gotham Racing 2 - 1.56 million (Japan 0.04, NA 0.85, Euro 0.67)
14. Dead or Alive 3 - 1.54 million (Japan 0.15, NA 1.06, Euro 0.33)
15. Madden NFL 2005 - 1.45 million (Japan 0.00, NA 1.42, Euro 0.03)
16. Madden NFL 2006 - 1.44 million (Japan 0.00, NA 1.41, Euro 0.03)
17. ESPN NFL 2K5 - 1.41 million (Japan 0.00, NA 1.39, Euro 0.02)
18. Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow - 1.41 million (Japan 0.00, NA 0.74, Euro 0.67)
19. Medal of Honor: Frontline - 1.40 million (Japan 0.00, NA 0.91, Euro 0.49)
20. Star Wars: Battlefront II - 1.36 million (Japan 0.00, NA 0.94, Euro 0.42)


Xbox360:

1. Call of Duty 2 - 1.32 million (Japan 0.00, NA 0.98, Euro 0.34)
2. Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter - 1.28 million (Japan 0.00, NA 0.81, Euro 0.47)
3. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion - 1.13 million (Japan 0.00, NA 0.71, Euro 0.42)
Wii/PS3 haven't been out long enough to post legitimate software trends.
Thanks go to our local bean counter over at E-mpire, who likes to keep tabs on the industry! (http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=59593)

pcypert
Jun 19, 2007, 04:23 PM
The list above is interesting to me as there's rubbish (for my playing style) for the other systems. If the software trends posted above prove anything to me it's that Nintendo makes lasting games that you can come back to...even when you didn't fully appreciate them the time before. On the PS2 list there's maybe one or two games I'd go back to play.

I BEGGED for the PS1 and did all kinds of stuff to get it...but wouldn't do the same for some of those games listed.

Just for me that list of third party and varied games is uninteresting. I mean Simpsons Hit and Run? Need for Speeds? These are games I could buy for any system...and are far from classic.

With the lists people have mentioned for the Wii we're well over 10 quality titles by the year end with sequels and many other things to look forward to. What do folks really need? Can you name me 30 must have games for the 360 that you actually own and play regularly? I'm betting no. I owned 24 for mine by the end and played Crackdown. The rest were different versions of the same (except the Rare offerings and Oblivion).

Paul

Vidd
Jun 19, 2007, 04:25 PM
Wii/PS3 haven't been out long enough to post legitimate software trends.

Yes, that's true. I remember being disappointed with the GBA because I had very few games initially. Now I have loads and still play them on my DS. :)

atszyman
Jun 19, 2007, 04:40 PM
I do love the "no more mini-game compilations" sentiment in this thread followed almost immediately by "where's Wii Sports 2?"

Let's face it. Nintendo broke from the mainstream and decided to court the non-gamer with an affordable system. The graphics will never compete with the 360 and PS3 and they don't need to. For the non-gamers their biggest concerns will be seeing the numbers in Sudoku like games or are the balls used in this game round.

There will be games the push graphics and epic stories, the Zeldas and Metroids, hey, it's a Nintendo system and you need to appease the base. But the Wii's bread and butter will prove to be if it can keep the "non-gamer" hooked and unfortunately for the non-gamer the mini-game compilations will probably be the key, although I'm sure some will venture into the other games as well just to see "what the fuss is about" but most of that won't happen until the games hit the $20 rack at Target.

What the Wii really needs right now is a Game Preview channel where people can go and play 5 minute demos of some of the games to decide if they like them. Without this the "non-gamer" market is lost and the Wii, while selling decent numbers will collect dust in many homes. Face it most of us know what's out there just because we're gaming geeks, but for those who mentioned their parents and grandparents buying Wiis, do they know what Mario Party games are about? or Wario Ware? or any of the games we might take for granted on the shelves? Give us playable demos and you'll see some of these people venture out and try some of these other games.

Third party support is nice but unfortunately if the people with Wiis aren't buying the games then this could very well following a path similar to the N64 and GameCube, while not completely a bad place for Nintendo, not the dominance they are currently showing or that they once had.

Haoshiro
Jun 19, 2007, 04:48 PM
zero2dash:

Of those third-party GameCube games, half were exclusives. Later RE4 and VFJ came to other systems, but originally they were exclusive.

The point I would argue, is simply that Nintendo is a great developer. It's not so much that the third party stuff is bad, it's that they are highly outclassed by Nintendo's own software.

To make sense of that point, if Nintendo were to become a third party for 360/PS3, even PSP, the same thing would happen. I think Nintendo would top the charts, and make a lot of other games look worse in comparison.

It would be interesting to look at exclusive games across the systems, but my money would be that it's not a larger percentage on the other systems then it is on Nintendo.

Like you are saying, it's not so much the support (exclusive or not), what you are looking at is quality and production values. You're looking at popularity of those exclusives and other third party software.

Personally, I don't think that is a great indicator. Nintendo systems have had plenty of really good third party exclusives. Chibi-Robo is one of those, picked it up this year on a whim and found it to be great. I-Ninja is supposed to be great too. Viewtiful Joe is some of the freshed stuff I've played from Capcom.

Just because people haven't heard of the games don't mean they aren't there and aren't great. Some of the best games barely sell (I'm thinking of Psychonauts and Beyond Good & Evil), I think people are just ignoring the games they haven't played or weren't popular just to pretend they never existed (or you really haven't heard of them).

I'll give you one point, that Nintendo systems don't often get the exclusives that make all the noise. No Final Fantasy 13, no MGS4, no Gears of War. That doesn't mean support isn't there, it just means what is there people are ignoring in favor of what they've heard of, their attention is being drawn to those games being shouted the loudest.

seenew
Jun 20, 2007, 10:48 AM
but for those who mentioned their parents and grandparents buying Wiis, do they know what Mario Party games are about? or Wario Ware?

there are TV ads, for both of those games... Which is where (my) grandparents get most of their info...

But I do agree, a preview channel would rock.

synth3tik
Jun 20, 2007, 10:52 AM
Sega, the people who no longer exist. Don't get me wrong. I loved Sega, but when you disband your hardware division and sell the software division you have little ground to make statements about others products. It's like Packerd Bell telling Dell they have it wrong.

ChrisK018
Jun 20, 2007, 11:54 AM
^Nintendo exec reminds SEGA that they "died" a few years ago.

kuebby
Jun 20, 2007, 08:20 PM
I don't get this comment. Doesn't this apply to every video game system? After Halo 3 what will I have to look forward to? After HL2 Episode 2 what PC game have I got left? What about Zelda and Sim City on the DS?
I tell you what I normally do - buy games now. Look forward to upcoming games, and not worrying whats happening beyond them since games get announced all the time.
After Prime/Smash Bros/Galaxy I have the true Wii Zelda game to look forward to. After that? Who knows. Wii Sports 2 in late 2008? Who cares at that expanse.

I'll drag the PS3 into this. I'm looking forward to so many games coming out just this year. There's GTA4, Time Crisis 4, Uncharted, Rainbow 6: Vegas (yeah it came out for 360 but I want to play online and I refuse to pay for XBL), Stranglehold, Haze, Warhawk, MOH: Airborne and Assassin's Creed.

Those are all big titles and there's more there than I could even afford. And those are all 2007 games. PS3 started slow but it picking up steam. Wii blew their whole load in the first year. I agree with the OP, Wii's days on top are numbered.

pcypert
Jun 20, 2007, 11:42 PM
So the guy above me said that 7 games is more than he can afford. So he's not going to buy all 7 of those this year. The Wii has this many coming out with more still on the horizon (Mario Kart and others) but for some reason they've shot their wad already?

It's not like people that buy their Wii four months from now will not find the games that have been available no longer decent. You guys are being a bit odd in your logic and reasoning. 7 games is 350 dollars give or take in games. Quite a bit of scratch. Most will buy maybe 5 a year at most. I guarantee there will be enough viable options for the Wii....this isn't even counting games that people buy and don't care if they are exclusive such as the Need for Speeds and EA Sports titles. Average gamers are actually far from as educated and sophisticated as some on these boards...you know the kinds of folks that make Spiderman 3 a top selling PS3 game...

All will have enough games for the folks that want them. Maybe the 360 will have less platformers and maybe the Wii will have less realistic shooters...but they'll all have plenty of options.

Paul

takao
Jun 21, 2007, 03:30 AM
gotta agree with pcypert for some part.. it all depends on which games you place most focus.. after all there are 12 (or 13?) releases for the wii in june and that's here in a PAL country

sure perhaps not much high profile games people talk about online and also quite some games i hope i never have to play but all those games have their market

i for example know a guy who went completely crazy for mercury meltdown

also my younger brother is totally waiting for resident evil since he haven't played it (partly because i didn't buy it 2 years ago ;) )

sure there are plenty of people informing themselves but there are still plenty people who still buy games without reading gazillion of reviews first, which i guess, most people here do
sure they have the risk of getting a lemon but also the chance of getting a game which might have failed at reviews but they totally love

XNine
Jul 5, 2007, 09:55 PM
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I've been gone and didn't get to reply.

That was worth saying :rolleyes: I really thought the Wii could, and it was just a matter of time :rolleyes: But the Wii could have games like say..MGS, which you said was some of the best boss battles ever.


That doesn't make Mario 64 bad....and that was my point.

My point is that this is exactly what the Sega guy is saying. So it was worth saying. It will and already does look dated.

And while Gran Turismo is not my kind of game either, actually, I don't like any racing sims.... It's still very, VERY impressive both mechanically and graphically.

So what you're saying is, despite MGS's original release on the PS1 no boss battle has come close to it? And the Wii doesn't stand a chance because it can't produce that level of detail found in a system from 1996?

I think you just proved that you don't need super consoles for detail.

No, I don't think any boss battle has been nearly as good as the Psychomantis battle. And I wasn't saying that the Wii couldn't provide such an experience, but the developers for it. Hell, I don't even think the MGS team will ever pull off a battle that awesome again, but like I was saying, it comes down to how much your developers care and what kind of effort is put into it. And really, while there are some amazing devs out there, I don't think anyone puts as much thought or complexities into their games as Konami's MGS team does. If you find someone that does, I'd like to know cos I'm sure it'd be a game worth buying.

GFLPraxis
Jul 6, 2007, 12:32 AM
Thus proving the videogame truism that nobody can dominate three successive 'generations'.

You know, when video games have only been around for like 7 generations it's really hard to accurately state that :)

GFLPraxis
Jul 6, 2007, 12:39 AM
Honestly, I think people are judging way too much way too early. The first six months will not provide an accurate reflection of the Wii's third party support. Prior to E3 2006, nobody cared about Nintendo because their previous consoles had been on downhill spirals and the GameCube was last place. Suddenly, E3 happened and a lot of developers jumped on board at the last possible moment, a few months before launch.

As such, other than the VERY few third parties Nintendo partnered with (Ubisoft, for example, with Red Steel), most Wii third parties had under six months to come up with games before the system launched. It's been six months since the Wii launched and most third party games have been ports with waggle.

And this makes sense. Nintendo came out of nowhere and jumped in the lead. Third parties are diving onboard a train that is already in motion. The DS did the same thing, with third party developers sitting it out until the last minute because they thought the interface was strange and the PSP would dominate; when the DS took off, all the third parties came on board, and it took a year before third party games became decent.


Third party games have not had enough development time to be good yet, because 90% of them began development within the last 12 months!

Have people totally forgotten the DS's history? How the first year was filled with entirely Nintendo 64 ports with added touchscreen control and minigames, or touchscreen buttons for GBA up-ports? It was almost identical to the Wii's current situation.

If by this time next year the Wii library doesn't look WAY better, I'll eat my hat. And that's the first time I've made a prediction like that on this board; I'm usually really, really careful not to make predictions in stone (I predicted PS3 would beat 360 prior to Sony announcing the price, if you recall, but never promised to eat my hat :) ).

Mr. MacBook
Jul 6, 2007, 05:07 PM
last time i checked sega sucked and has been trying to claw their way to the top for ages until 2003 so WHO cares about their opinions

lag1090
Aug 15, 2007, 11:05 AM
I find it odd that a SEGA exec would say this. Ever since SEGA ceased production of hardware, the majority of their software has been distributed via Nintendo for its consoles. I cannot see how this comment is beneficial to SEGA's interests, as it only harms the current vehicle for their sales.

bousozoku
Aug 15, 2007, 01:01 PM
I find it odd that a SEGA exec would say this. Ever since SEGA ceased production of hardware, the majority of their software has been distributed via Nintendo for its consoles. I cannot see how this comment is beneficial to SEGA's interests, as it only harms the current vehicle for their sales.

They never were too smart, always painting themselves into corners.

I can only see the Wii leading to better things for Nintendo. Those who only want higher resolution versions of the same, old games will buy Sony consoles.

Dagless
Aug 15, 2007, 01:29 PM
I wonder if this will have any effect on Mario & Sonic at the Olympics, or any future F-Zero game?