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NoVi
Jul 7, 2003, 03:20 PM
Today I've been reading an interesting article from the Dutch Consumer Organization, de Consumentenbond.

They perform regularly test on all sorts of equipment and this time they tested ink jet printers.
De Consumentenbond has some harsh and shocking conclusions with respect to the cartridges that come along with the Epson printers.

The cartridges that Epson deliver have a chip that 'shuts down' the cartridge after a certain amount of print outs. So even if there is ink in the cartridge it simply won't print while up to 100 extra pages might have been printed!

De Consumentenbond says that Epson is operating with "cheating methods" and gives the advice "NOT to buy ink jet printers from Epson". (quote).

The whole article in Dutch can be read from this link:
http://www.consumentenbond.nl/nieuws/nieuws/273830?ticket=nietlid

Abstract
Jul 7, 2003, 03:22 PM
Really!?!?!? Wow. From the title of this thread, I was going to come in here and say not to buy from Epson because their printer's suck, but your reason is MUCH better. :D

iGav
Jul 7, 2003, 03:26 PM
Epsons do indeed have this chip in them (it's no secret) it allows you to monitor the amount of ink left... and they shut down before they're totally empty, although normally if you take them out, give it a very gentle shake and replace it, you can usually get a few more print out of it.

I doubt you'd get 100 extra pages though, unless each page contains only text, and a small amount of it, at really small point size, but you're unlikely to get 100 A4 colour prints from it...

tazo
Jul 7, 2003, 03:33 PM
hp > epson :) mybrother has had nothing but problems with his epson

jefhatfield
Jul 7, 2003, 03:45 PM
when i first started as a computer tech, epsons were good for macs, and hp printers were good for ibm pcs, and lexmark, formerly with ibm, sucked pond water

but lexmark has gotten their act together, then they got glowing reviews, then i bought one for my ibook (18 months ago)

apple likes to sell ibooks with lexmarks, so do catalogs

the lexmark is just as good as an hp or epson, but it's cheaper

reliability wise, it is better than the hp and epson printers i have seen as a 1) warranty tech, 2) company tech, and 3) self employed tech

but overall, most printers can get the "job" done and in many cases, it's just what you get used to in your uses or business

MacFan25
Jul 7, 2003, 03:45 PM
I got a free Epson printer when I got my iMac from MacMall, and I have had no problems with it. I've only had to replace the black cartridge once.

Abstract
Jul 7, 2003, 03:51 PM
I got a Canon S520. It was the fastest printer when I first bought it, and it used very little ink. Its still a great printer, and I wouldn't switch back to my Epson if you gave it to me for free. :) I know that there is an Epson printer that would wipe the floor with my Canon, but I have always had great luck with Canon printers, so why bother switching ever again?

King Cobra
Jul 7, 2003, 03:54 PM
Epson quality printers...

The older ink cartrigs. had a chip, counting each page you printed and estimating (not accurately) how much ink was used.

Newer cartrgs. have a digital device to more accurately measure ink. That should be obvious, too.

I have two Epson printers, the 740i and the 880. I often use the 880, and it works like last year, but it's just not that new.

job
Jul 7, 2003, 04:07 PM
I've found HP printers to be far superior in physical build quality and ink cartridge life than Epsons. Just my simple opinion though.

bousozoku
Jul 7, 2003, 04:58 PM
I usually buy business class inkjets and find my Epson SC900 isn't a thief although the cartridges are more expensive that those for the consumer printers. My Lexmark Z42 has good colour for photographs but definitely pours out the ink and those cartridges are more expensive still.

I think my next printer will be a Canon i9100.

scem0
Jul 7, 2003, 05:19 PM
I say don't buy an inkjet at all.

I couldn't imagine living without my laser printer. I got mine for $130.00 - laser printers are going down in price.

I guess some people require color printing though, in which case you can get a color laser printer ;).

scem0

King Cobra
Jul 7, 2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by bousozoku
...the cartridges are more expensive that those for the consumer printers.

Ink cartridge prices also depend on which model printer (of one particular company) you have.

Epson 740i ink catridges can cost $20.

Down at the bottom of this page (http://www.dealtime.com/xCP-Cartridges_and_Toners~KW-epson_880_ink~FD-352~DIL-1~CR-1) lists Epson 880 ink cartridges for about $8 to $12.

Different companies also like to charge more... http://www.thetechpub.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/new_snipersmilie.gif

wdlove
Jul 7, 2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by scem0
I say don't buy an inkjet at all.

I couldn't imagine living without my laser printer. I got mine for $130.00 - laser printers are going down in price.

I guess some people require color printing though, in which case you can get a color laser printer ;).

scem0

I'm shocked by that price scem0. The last laser printer price I saw was for $999. What kind of output do you get for $130?

Lyle
Jul 7, 2003, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by wdlove
I'm shocked by that price scem0. The last laser printer price I saw was for $999. What kind of output do you get for $130? I doubt that you're going to find a color laser printer in that price range, but there are definitely some affordable B & W laser printers available for $200.00 or less.

I bought a Hewlett-Packard LaserJet 5L three or four years ago for around $400.00, and it's turned out to be a very reliable B & W printer. For comparison purposes, I just checked buy.com (http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/category.asp?loc=257)'s laser printer selection and they have several nice-looking monochrome laser printers in that price range. Now mind you, these are for home/personal use and aren't going to be as fast as some of the higher-cost printers targeted at business users. But our LaserJet, which only prints at about 6 pages per minute (IIRC), is just fine for your typical letters, reports, etc.

This is not an anti-inkjet post, by the way. ;) Ink jet printer quality has progressed tremendously since we bought this LaserJet a few years back, and if I were to buy a new printer today it would likely be an inkjet. For my purposes, the quality from the current crop of inkjet printers is "good enough", plus you get the bonus of color printing when you want it.

QCassidy352
Jul 7, 2003, 09:31 PM
I've had nothing but good results with espon inkjet printers. Fast, long-lasting ink cartridges, great quality, instant compatibility. I wouldn't buy anything else.

Freg3000
Jul 7, 2003, 10:18 PM
I guess I am the odd man out, but I absolutely love Epson printers. I just love Epson in general. I have no idea why too. I just do. It's weird. All my printers have been Epsons and I have never had any problems.

Last month I got their all-in-one CX 5200, and it is great. It is great. The only thing that doesn't work is the one touch scan button, because of OS X drivers. but all the other one-touch buttons work. GO EPSON! :)

technocoy
Jul 7, 2003, 10:42 PM
I'm a graphic designer, and when it comes to doing a quality comp print, i'm doing it on an epson. period. I've owned high end printers from HP, epson, and canon, and canon and HP (in that order) are better for consumers, but epson makes the best professional printers, hands down. some HP large-formats are nice though.:)

zarathustra
Jul 7, 2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by technocoy
I'm a graphic designer, and when it comes to doing a quality comp print, i'm doing it on an epson. period. I've owned high end printers from HP, epson, and canon, and canon and HP (in that order) are better for consumers, but epson makes the best professional printers, hands down. some HP large-formats are nice though.:)

I'll have to agree.

I had many EPSON printers: 740, 900, 3000, 820, etc. I LOVED them. I even have an EPSON scanner after going through UMAX hell. Professionally we have LinotypeHell and Heidelberg scanners though.

I think CANON is about the only printer that might tempt me to ditch EPSON. The performance/price ratio is a tad better and the color is great.

But where EPSON shines is professional output to EPSON stock. Have you seen the new 90 year inks printed by the 2 picoliter printers on the 97 brightness photo papers? Wow! It makes dye-sublimation an awkward old-timey relic!

zarathustra
Jul 7, 2003, 11:22 PM
BTW, I thought it was ironic that above this thread there was an ad for EPSON ink cartridges. :p

Sorry to double post, but couldn't edit to include image in my first message.

SilvorX
Jul 8, 2003, 12:16 AM
lol it says that for me 2, i find that all the epson printers ive ever used are totally cruddy, my hp printer works fine, i used to love hp's products until about a year and half ago, but my hp printer works fine, but i wish it was a little faster and better quality

pianojoe
Jul 8, 2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by job
I've found HP printers to be far superior in physical build quality and ink cartridge life than Epsons. Just my simple opinion though.

Yes, and I'm waiting for a decent driver for HP my LJ3300m all-in-one which never worked since the first "driver" for OS X beta was released. At least, since it is a post script printer, basic printing is built into OS X without HP getting involved. But don't ask me about scanning faxing etc.

MacBandit
Jul 8, 2003, 01:51 AM
Okay to start off I absolutely love HP printers. Also to answer another persons statement some of us have to have inkjets so we can print affordable photos.

Well just so everyone doesn't think Epson is alone in this I just have to let you know that HP does the same thing. They measure the ink in the cartridge and then most of the time prematurely shut them down. This is done because HP guarantees the quality of your prints an they don't want to run the risk of you having a poor print. Also something else that isn't mentioned here is that both Epson and HP have a time stamp on the chip in the cartridges and if you don't use them in like a year and a half after they were produced the printer will refuse to use them. This is also done to ensure print quality.

There has been another side affect to this. Any printer manufacturer who uses this new chip can now sue to prevent 3rd party manufacturors from making printer cartridges for there printers. This is because to produce printer cartridges to work in the printer the company would have to reverse engineer the chip on them and in affect would be committing copy right infringement. I don't remember which company sued over this but it wasn't HP or Epson.

pseudobrit
Jul 8, 2003, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by MacBandit
There has been another side affect to this. Any printer manufacturer who uses this new chip can now sue to prevent 3rd party manufacturors from making printer cartridges for there printers. This is because to produce printer cartridges to work in the printer the company would have to reverse engineer the chip on them and in affect would be committing copy right infringement. I don't remember which company sued over this but it wasn't HP or Epson.

It was Lexmark. They did this for laser toner cartridges, which is scarier than a suit over inkjet cartridges. Toner cartridges are remanufactured at an incredible rate; most businesses will use reman'd to save money. To lockout the aftermarket in this way is inviting exploitation and fleecing.

They used DMCA, actually. Quite not what the authors of that law had in mind.

The Reg has the scoop:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/28811.html

And here's another piece about how OEM inkjet ink is over 7 times more expensive than Dom Perignon in the UK:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/31569.html

That means if inkjet ink were in a standard 750mL bottle, it would cost over $800.

tazo
Jul 8, 2003, 03:14 AM
dell is selling laser printers for 299 i believe.

rt_brained
Jul 8, 2003, 03:31 AM
I have a couple Epsons, incl. the 740i and Photo 1200, but if I were to buy another ink jet, I'd take the Canon i950 for its great price ($249), amazing print quality and 6 separate ink cartridges.

The brushed metal finish looks sharp too.

MacFan25
Jul 8, 2003, 07:38 AM
Last night on The Screen Savers, a guy called in asking if ink cartridges really are empty when they say they are empty. Leo got all worked up, because of it. I guess he doesn't want to get screwed out of some ink either. Pretty funny. :D

I thought it was ironic that someone called in about it when I had just read this thread. ;)

Groovsonic
Jul 8, 2003, 08:05 AM
I MUST AGREE...

When we got our Epson 820 when we bought out FP iMac, It was on one of those "free with rebate" deals, so we figured, How could we not buy it? Well, I wish we hadn't.
This thing has been almost nothing but trouble since the day we got it. Sure, it prints photos out nicely on the shiny paper, but, it wont feed paper properly, so when you have 20 sheets in the tray, it tries to pull them all down, and they get stuck inside the printer. It goes through ink like crazy. We don't print very much at all, but this thing is rediculous.

I am (probably) getting an iBook for college, and I was in wal-mart a few days ago, and I saw this HP PSC1210 sitting there, and it looks like it was designed to sit next to a consumer mac. It is a printer/scanned/copier thing, but it looks like it is actually smaller than our epson. It was only $99. I think I'll get it.

Has anyone here tried this printer? Any thoughts/warnings?

Wardofsky
Jul 8, 2003, 08:09 AM
Well Epson do have some good printers and ink consumption is large and putting in chips to cut down print outs seems a bit dodgy.

Oh well.

morlium
Jul 8, 2003, 08:16 AM
i have the Epson Stylus Photo 2200, which I mainly use for final proofing at a small publishing company, and I would recommend it to anyone.

dynamicd
Jul 8, 2003, 12:13 PM
I have the Epson 820 and also got it free with my imac last year. It has troubles loading paper and leaves streaks of ink when it prints. I've tried all the printint utilites and still have no luck with it. I guess I can't complain too much since it was free.

rainman::|:|
Jul 8, 2003, 12:36 PM
i bloody hate epson printers. when my 740i finally kicked the bucket, i got a $50 HP Deskjet 3320, and the damn thing is twice the printer the epson was, for less than half the original price.

HP has never let me down before. Epson has done nothing but. Screw ink levels...

pnw

mactastic
Jul 10, 2003, 07:33 PM
I got a C82 when I bought my powerbook in November, it prints great, but I do sorta wonder about ink consumption. Seems to go through cartridges faster than I would like, but then again, I do print photos occasionally. I'm waiting till my dad does a bunch of his professional photography prints on the epson Stylus Photo 2200 to see how much ink that uses. It will be all large-area coverage at the highest quality settings, so I am very interested to see how much he spends on ink. Quality-wise, I have no complaints so I'm not too upset about ink costs. Would be nice to get a cheap-o laser printer for all the text stuff though...

XnavxeMiyyep
Jul 10, 2003, 10:41 PM
I've had 2 Epson printers, one from 8 years ago, and one from last year. They both suc|<ed arse. They were both loud, slow(I timed last years model at one page in 70 secs), full of problems, and would run out of color ink every three months even when I didn't use color ink more than once a month. I bought a Lexmark this year. It's fast, quiet, and cuts off the edges of all my text. Only HP seems to be able to make good printers.

scem0
Jul 10, 2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by wdlove
I'm shocked by that price scem0. The last laser printer price I saw was for $999. What kind of output do you get for $130?

grrrrrrrrrreat text output.

****ty picture output.

That's good for me because i never print pics.

scem0

Zero
Jul 31, 2003, 07:01 AM
Epson printer technology has not improved since I last bought Epson Stylus in 1995. The printhead keeps clogging every now and then. The only difference I can see with their current printers is in speed. Otherwise it is the same old technology and hack with some serious disadvantages for the user.

Apart from the unethical use of a microchip on the catridge to lock up the printer when one of the 2 catridges run out, there is also another equally serious problem with them.

Epson printers guzzles up the ink like anything. Everytime you switch an Epson printer on, it cleans the printhead. Do you hear the sound of money going the drain. That's exactly the sound of printhead cleaning.

I bought this C61 few months back and had to get rid of it because it finished off the whole tank of color ink just by head cleaning. And you know how expensive that is. I only printed a few small graphics measuring 1 X 1 inches and all the ink ran out.

You can see on the software the ink level sinking everytime you switch on the printer even though you use only black ink. My calculation tells me that such small color graphic costs me around US$10 each. But really it was not the printing of color graphics. It's the printhead cleaning that did the dirty job for Epson.

Therefore if you are facing the same ink-guzzling problem, try not to switch off the printer because everytime you on it, it will happily at the expense of your misery go through the motion of printhead cleaning. Not switching will reduce printhead cleaning but not entirely because the bloody Epson technology is so backward it has to keep on cleaning the printhead every now and then even when nothing is amiss.

Not satisfied with this robbery by Epson, I called up their service center and was told that IF my printer uses more than 70% of ink for head cleaning it is not normal, so please send it in for repair.

I put down the phone and then suddenly it hit me: What up to 70% of ink usage just for printhead cleaning is NORMAL !

I quickly got rid of the Epson printer and settled for a new laser printer. I can live without color.

Don't buy Epson printers unless you want a hole in your pocket and becoming a frustrated user with clogged printheads every now and then.

Inkjet printers like that have less than 3 years to survive in the market because laser printers prices are dipping like anything and soon their color ones will be close to those of inkjet printers.

Let these inkjet manufacturers die, they deserve to because they are commercial robbers of the hard earned money of users.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

big
Jul 31, 2003, 08:19 AM
Epson bites the big one, none of their products are ment to last longer than say 3 years.

they are cheap throw away products. After my 2nd Epson, I broke down and spent $600 on a canon that I am very very very pleased with

(and happy not to have another epson)

bousozoku
Jul 31, 2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra
Ink cartridge prices also depend on which model printer (of one particular company) you have.

Epson 740i ink catridges can cost $20.

Down at the bottom of this page (http://www.dealtime.com/xCP-Cartridges_and_Toners~KW-epson_880_ink~FD-352~DIL-1~CR-1) lists Epson 880 ink cartridges for about $8 to $12.

Different companies also like to charge more... http://www.thetechpub.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/new_snipersmilie.gif

I looked at what was available for the SC900 and the prices were a couple of dollars off what the office supply stores charge. I even saw some claiming to be brand new Epson cartridges for $2.99 and $4.99 which is $30 off each.

In the meantime, I got an Epson CX5200 all-in-one and found that it's about as economical as the SC900 (3 picolitre vs 2 picolitre for the SC900) but the ink is longer-lasting and costs less. Of course, the enhanced resolution 1440x5760 vs. 720x1440 is sure to use more ink. :D

andrewh
Aug 4, 2003, 09:53 PM
Someone in here was commenting about the Canon i9100. I picked mine up a couple of weeks ago. It does 13"x19" Borderless photos at 4800x1200. The printer is excellent.

I also like Epson printers. But one thing that frustrated me was that they can't seem to create a driver for OSX that can print to the edges. Even with the most expensive model (for consumers), the Stylus 2200 you can't use all the features like the paper roll and borderless printing. Epson blames OSX but Canon figured out how to do it. Maybe Apple fixed something in 10.2, but even so it has been out for a long time. No excuse Epson!

I'm very happy with this Canon. Highly recommended. Not cheap at $500 though.

Gus
Aug 4, 2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by big
Epson bites the big one, none of their products are ment to last longer than say 3 years.

they are cheap throw away products. After my 2nd Epson, I broke down and spent $600 on a canon that I am very very very pleased with

(and happy not to have another epson)

I owned an Epson 740 that worked like a horse for 5 years. The only reason I sold it was because the wife wanted something that would print borderless photos. It still worked when I sold it.

Regards,
Gus

P.S. I bought another Epson, by the way, and I love it. No problems in OS X, and the ink lasts forever in it. I really don't know about the problems everyone is reporting. Sorry yours isn't as nice of an experience.

MrMacMan
Aug 4, 2003, 10:31 PM
Omg... I've had such a damn problem with my Epson Printers...

So much damn problems that I gave them my number at Mac World Expo This year and they have

REFUSED to call me back.

I AM SO ANGRY that I JUST REMEMBERED they were suppose to CALL ME BACK!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

ARRRGGGG.

andrewh
Aug 4, 2003, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by Gus
I owned an Epson 740 that worked like a horse for 5 years. The only reason I sold it was because the wife wanted something that would print borderless photos. It still worked when I sold it.

Regards,
Gus

P.S. I bought another Epson, by the way, and I love it. No problems in OS X, and the ink lasts forever in it. I really don't know about the problems everyone is reporting. Sorry yours isn't as nice of an experience.

Your new epson will print to the edges in OSX? Cool. They must have released new drivers. I must be mistaken, as I thought I read on their driver download page that it was still an issue for the 2200. Anyway my Photo 820 is a fantastic little printer for $99. I just needed large format.

mymemory
Aug 4, 2003, 10:46 PM
Ok, I got a new epson C60, it ran out of ink a month later just after printing about 30 pages.

We went to a refill place to insert new ink, the guy told us the cartiges still heavy, he reset the chip and vuala! my girlfriedn just printed 120 pages for her tesis and there still ink inside.

This are not rumors, this is true, the chips are programed to send false signals of the ink level.

bousozoku
Aug 4, 2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by andrewh
Someone in here was commenting about the Canon i9100. I picked mine up a couple of weeks ago. It does 13"x19" Borderless photos at 4800x1200. The printer is excellent.

I also like Epson printers. But one thing that frustrated me was that they can't seem to create a driver for OSX that can print to the edges. Even with the most expensive model (for consumers), the Stylus 2200 you can't use all the features like the paper roll and borderless printing. Epson blames OSX but Canon figured out how to do it. Maybe Apple fixed something in 10.2, but even so it has been out for a long time. No excuse Epson!

I'm very happy with this Canon. Highly recommended. Not cheap at $500 though.

I'm the one who likes the i9100 but hasn't come up with the money. I should have bought the Epson SC1200 years ago when I had the money for a tabloid printer.

By the way, I don't think that Epson are completely responsible for what seem to be drivers failures running with 10.2. My SC900 didn't print from 10.2 until 10.2.4 and still had the same driver that I used before 10.2 arrived. Epson have had lots of problems with the 2200 though.

MrMacMan
Aug 4, 2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by mymemory
Ok, I got a new epson C60, it ran out of ink a month later just after printing about 30 pages.

We went to a refill place to insert new ink, the guy told us the cartiges still heavy, he reset the chip and vuala! my girlfriedn just printed 120 pages for her tesis and there still ink inside.

This are not rumors, this is true, the chips are programed to send false signals of the ink level.

You got the 'inside' scoop, How can you reset the chip?

Did you see the procedure? Is it easy?

:hopes for the best:

andrewh
Aug 5, 2003, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by bousozoku
I'm the one who likes the i9100 but hasn't come up with the money. I should have bought the Epson SC1200 years ago when I had the money for a tabloid printer.

By the way, I don't think that Epson are completely responsible for what seem to be drivers failures running with 10.2. My SC900 didn't print from 10.2 until 10.2.4 and still had the same driver that I used before 10.2 arrived. Epson have had lots of problems with the 2200 though.

Yes, it seems Epson did get the drivers out fully featured for OSX. I'll cut them some slack. Probably was OS limitations then.

I just downloaded the one for my Photo 820. I have both printers hooked up since I have so much Epson paper to use up. Epson make such great printers, I thought I was taking a bit of a gamble getting the Canon i9100 but I'm sooo happy with it.

Anyway I'm not sure what to think about this ink cartridge controversy. I'm skeptical but if it's true I hope Canon isn't up to the same tricks!

Gus
Aug 5, 2003, 01:26 AM
I know everyone says not to do it, but I order my ink form www.ink4art.com, and I never have a problem with "heavy cartidges". I've also never had a problem with the catridges themselves working in my Epson printers. That said, my mother ruined her Stylus 820 Silver with after-market cartidges, although I'm still not convinced she ordered the right ones. Anyway, she called Epson, they scolded her for buying those cartridges, and then sent her out a new printer. Not too shabby.

Regards,
Gus

ihateepson
Sep 29, 2005, 12:55 AM
i hate epson so much i hired a web developer to build a site dedicated to all epson haters. i have a 2200 that i almost went postal trying to get to work. also spent 200 with the factory to unclog it.

feel free to bash a way on my site. i need haters.

*how much time can a person waste with a printer? buy an epson and find out

ihateepson dot us

epson aready parked ihateepson dot com and net... wonder why

bousozoku
Sep 29, 2005, 01:07 AM
I think resurrecting a 2 year old thread is probably not the best of ideas, so I'll give this a close.