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gauchogolfer
Jun 18, 2007, 12:51 AM
From engadget:

In a huge blow to Toshiba, Universal, and the rest of the HD DVD devotees, rental giant Blockbuster has decided to stock only Blu-ray discs in the vast majority of its nationwide locations, although HD DVD titles will continue to be offered online and in the 250 (out of 1,450) stores that have been testing both formats since last year. Blockbuster VP Matthew Smith revealed to the AP that the decision to go with Blu-ray -- which will reportedly be announced tomorrow -- stemmed from an overwhelming customer preference for those titles in the test markets, accounting for over 70% of all HD discs rented.

Engadget.com (http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/17/blockbuster-chooses-blu-ray-is-the-war-over/)

So, is the format war over?

SkyBell
Jun 18, 2007, 12:57 AM
I seriously doubt it (In fact, not by a longshot) but if so, they'd better drop those Blu-Ray player prices fast.

bluebomberman
Jun 18, 2007, 01:14 AM
Does anybody know who's winning at this point? I'm just waiting for one format to die a violent death.

SkyBell
Jun 18, 2007, 01:41 AM
Does anybody know who's winning at this point? I'm just waiting for one format to die a violent death.

I think it's just because Blu-Ray has the "cool" factor, while HD-DVD is far more practical at this point.

Aea
Jun 18, 2007, 01:48 AM
Based on Tech Specs, Blu-Ray is ahead (20GB more storage on dual-layer for example) and it looks like it's having a lot more support right now.

jamdr
Jun 18, 2007, 01:50 AM
yeah blu-ray won because it has a cooler sounding name

EricNau
Jun 18, 2007, 01:50 AM
This war is far from over (unfortunately).

There is too much money supporting each format and there is too much to be lost for Toshiba and Universal to give up anytime soon.

mrkramer
Jun 18, 2007, 01:51 AM
Does anybody know who's winning at this point? I'm just waiting for one format to die a violent death.
I don't think either side is winning. I think that either we will end up with dual format players, or people will just move to digital downloads/stay with DVD.

siurpeeman
Jun 18, 2007, 01:51 AM
i don't think either format is doing exceptionally well, as the adoption to hd media has been slow. who here has a blu-ray or hd-dvd player?

SkyBell
Jun 18, 2007, 01:56 AM
Maybe people who have a PS3 and a few other rich jerks. :p

A commercial for a movie just played on the TV behind me "Coming soon to Blu-Ray disc and DVD" (No mention of HD-DVD). At this point, Blu-Ray has a small lead, but HD-DVD is a little cheaper.

dartzorichalcos
Jun 18, 2007, 02:02 AM
I hope Blu-ray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_disc) will win. Blu-ray is ahead of HD-DVD and more companies will probably just choose Blu-ray because of it's lead and it's better than HD-DVD (at least in some parts). I can see Blu-ray being standard in 2009-2010 timeframe.

irmongoose
Jun 18, 2007, 02:06 AM
Most people aren't even aware of the HD formats - which is usually true of any new technology. It's usually up to the geeks to buy up the initial stock and drive prices down. But with the whole format war going on, even they are wary of putting their money in the market. I know I am. In the end though, that just makes things worse. Competition is good in most respects, but I really hope they just give up this nonsense soon so we can all enjoy cheap HD media. The technology is there, but not in our hands. It's just dumb.



irmongoose

nuckinfutz
Jun 18, 2007, 02:13 AM
I hope Blue-ray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-ray_disc) will win. Blue-ray is ahead of HD-DVD and more companies will probably just choose Blue-ray because of it's lead and it's better than HD-DVD (at least in some parts). I can see Blue-ray being standard in 2009-2010 timeframe.

Drop the "e" it's "Blu-ray"

Blockbuster is a strong ally for Blu-ray however it certainly doesn't mean the end of any war. I don't personally rent discs at Blockbuster I dislike the company. I'll resume my Netflix account instead.

Neither format is really gaining much traction against a consumer base for DVD that is huge. It's looking like a stalemate is coming and both formats will be relegated to niche status.

Although as an HD DVD owner I'll readily admit that if the war can be won it'll be won by Blu-ray based solely on DRM. DRM is the only thing that is keeping Disney and Fox locked in. So in essence...I know that a Blu-ray win is a win for DRM (both formats have AACS encryption but Blu-ray adds another layer of DRM called BD+)

dartzorichalcos
Jun 18, 2007, 02:16 AM
Drop the "e" it's "Blu-ray"

Oh thanks. I just realized I spelled it wrong. When did it change from Blue-ray to Blu-ray? I didn't realized this.

siurpeeman
Jun 18, 2007, 02:17 AM
Why? It's not the correct spelling used for Blue-ray. It's Blue-ray not Blu-ray.

it is blu-ray. look at the logo.

Oh thanks. I just realized I spelled it wrong. When did it change from Blue-ray to Blu-ray? I didn't realized this.

it never changed. it's always been blu-ray.

irmongoose
Jun 18, 2007, 02:18 AM
Did you even read the Wiki article you linked to? Not once does it say "Blue-ray". It's Blu-ray.

As an aside... leave it up to the Japanese to name a crisp, high-definition format "blurry". ;)



irmongoose

dartzorichalcos
Jun 18, 2007, 02:20 AM
Did you even read the Wiki article you linked to? Not once does it say "Blue-ray". It's Blu-ray.

Sorry, I am just so used to Blue-ray name. Sorry once again.

irmongoose
Jun 18, 2007, 02:22 AM
Cheer up, everyone has his/her honest mistakes. :)



irmongoose

nuckinfutz
Jun 18, 2007, 02:32 AM
Oh thanks. I just realized I spelled it wrong. When did it change from Blue-ray to Blu-ray? I didn't realized this.

No sweat man I was just pointing it out..didn't want to sound condescending or anything. Sony tried to trademark Blueray but you cannot trademark a color so they dropped the "e". That's my useless trivia of the day.

dartzorichalcos
Jun 18, 2007, 02:37 AM
No sweat man I was just pointing it out..didn't want to sound condescending or anything. Sony tried to trademark Blueray but you cannot trademark a color so they dropped the "e". That's my useless trivia of the day.

Thanks for clearing it up. From now on, I will always call it Blu-ray not Blue-ray. Also, of course I read the article but didn't pay too much attention to name changes. There is always something new to learn every day. :)

siurpeeman
Jun 18, 2007, 02:42 AM
Thanks for clearing it up. From now on, I will always call it Blu-ray not Blue-ray. Also, of course I read the article but didn't pay too much attention to name changes. There is always something new to learn everyday. :)

if you really want to learn something new, "every day" is different from "everyday." example: you don't always wear your everyday shoes every day.

mfacey
Jun 18, 2007, 03:35 AM
I haven't seem any recent figures but a few months ago Blu-ray was outselling HD-DVD (in discs) and also had a larger release rate of new titles. I'm sure part of the reason is from PS3 sales. I think a lot of people are justifying the exorbitant price of the PS3 but using it as a Blu-ray disc player, so they're motivated to buy movies in HD :rolleyes:

I, for one, don't want to take the plunge until there's a lot more certainty as to what the standard is going to be. I don't want to end up with a modern Betamax player :eek:

killerrobot
Jun 18, 2007, 03:46 AM
Wait...just because Blockbuster decided to start carrying more Blu-ray discs it's won? Doesn't it say it's still going to be offering the HD as well (the 250 in the stores)? I do think it's probably all the people that bought the PS3 renting them trying to justify if it's worth it. I don't know (and I know I don't know everyone, but my friends are generally the first to jump on these sort of bandwagons) anyone with a Blu-ray player other than those that have a computer or a PS3. They're gonna have to gain a lot of ground (either one) in order to be standard by 2009.

Belly-laughs
Jun 18, 2007, 05:11 AM
Soon we´ll have full HD movie downloads at good speed from iTMS and others. I know I´d rather have a disk with all my movies than a shelf full of plastic covers.

So yes, the format war is over. Didn´t you know? The disc is dead.

edesignuk
Jun 18, 2007, 05:59 AM
Soon we´ll have full HD movie downloads at good speed from iTMS and others. I know I´d rather have a disk with all my movies than a shelf full of plastic covers.

So yes, the format war is over. Didn´t you know? The disc is dead.Not a chance. Not for a good while yet anyway. I don't know how things are in the rest of the world but here in the UK virtually everyone's broadband is capped one way or another. Be it actually stopping you after a certain limit is reached or seriously reducing your speeds. Downloading vast amounts of HD content (namely movies) by the masses is just not viable, the internet as it stands would be brought to a stand still.

Cabbit
Jun 18, 2007, 05:59 AM
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CD-049-PO&groupid=701&catid=10&subcat=925 this will help blu-ray the first blu-ray combo drive without the expencive writing parts. I cant find any HD-dvd drives to compare it to sorry.

Cooknn
Jun 18, 2007, 07:28 AM
Since bought my PS3 I've been getting my BD movies from Netflix - that is until about two weeks ago when I ventured back in to my local Blockbuster. Much to my surprise they had every Blu-Ray title that was still 'Long Wait' on Netflix.

Combine that with Blockbuster's on-line Total Access and it's a great deal. Every time I finish watching a movie I received from the on-line store I can swap it for another BD title at the brick and mortar. Plus I get two coupons per month for free game rentals (they have PS3 titles). Unlimited rentals (one at a time) for $9.99 per month. Needless to say, I dropped Netflix. Oh, and my Blockbuster does Blu-Ray almost exclusively from what I've seen. I've only spotted one HD-DVD title available on the shelf - it was a DVD/HD-DVD combo. Don't remember the title though...

Grimace
Jun 18, 2007, 08:09 AM
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CD-049-PO&groupid=701&catid=10&subcat=925 this will help blu-ray the first blu-ray combo drive without the expencive writing parts. I cant find any HD-dvd drives to compare it to sorry.

That is fantastic! I'd buy that and use it as a player far before plunking down hundreds more for a unit that also writes. Nice find!

GFLPraxis
Jun 18, 2007, 08:51 AM
Not a chance. Not for a good while yet anyway. I don't know how things are in the rest of the world but here in the UK virtually everyone's broadband is capped one way or another. Be it actually stopping you after a certain limit is reached or seriously reducing your speeds. Downloading vast amounts of HD content (namely movies) by the masses is just not viable, the internet as it stands would be brought to a stand still.

Out where I live, a very large number of my friends live out where broadband is not available without spending several hundred dollars for a satellite dish and $80 a month for minimal speeds.

GFLPraxis
Jun 18, 2007, 08:57 AM
To the original topic: This hurts HD-DVD, badly. I'd rather see HD-DVD win for various reasons (one being that historically Sony has always been like Microsoft when it comes to formats; anyone remember the Sony BMG "copyright protection" in the form of rootkits?). But honestly either disk can hold 5-6 hours of HD content easily, so I really don't care that badly who wins. If I had a choice I'd go for HD-DVD as the winner.

I think a lot of people here are picking Blu-ray just for the fact that Apple announced support for it onstage and are quietly ignoring the fact that Apple has always silently been supporting HD-DVD as well (they are part of the DVD Forum) and all their software supports both.

I chose not to purchase anything because I don't want to be stuck with the loser. HD-DVD was winning by a vast margin initially, but Blu-ray sales started surpassing HD-DVD after the PS3 launch. It's kind of funny really; the amount of people who have bought a PS3 is VERY small compared to other consoles, only around 3 million or so, but even that is larger than the amount of people who bought HD-DVD.

Neither format is selling well at all, when a game console outsells one of the formats.

I'd attribute the pitiful sales of both formats to customer confusion and high price. And a lot of people don't have HD yet.

Belly-laughs
Jun 18, 2007, 11:11 AM
Out where I live, a very large number of my friends live out where broadband is not available without spending several hundred dollars for a satellite dish and $80 a month for minimal speeds.

Not to worry. Soon they will be getting their HD content via their iPhones.

edesignuk
Jun 18, 2007, 11:21 AM
Not to worry. Soon they will be getting their HD content via their iPhones.A miracle, considering the iPhone has nothing like a HD capable screen :rolleyes:

2nyRiggz
Jun 18, 2007, 11:28 AM
Glad to hear it...now we can get past all of this HD-DVD Vs. Blu-Ray crap. It made sense for BB to pick up BR since they state over 70% of their HD rentals are blu-ray.

I rather blu-ray myself with the storage/interactive menus etc. although I see no difference in picture quality..I have both player so I know whats going on.

PS3 pushed those sales right up which is what Sony was hoping for.




Bless

Rodimus Prime
Jun 18, 2007, 12:06 PM
I see the war ending differently and it ending like the DVD -R+ amd DVD-R- war. End up the burners became duel formate and the DVD drives all where dual formate. I have a feeling the same thing will happen here.

~Shard~
Jun 18, 2007, 12:09 PM
I see the war ending differently and it ending like the DVD -R+ amd DVD-R- war. End up the burners became duel formate and the DVD drives all where dual formate. I have a feeling the same thing will happen here.

Or things could go the VHS/Betamax way...

janstett
Jun 18, 2007, 12:11 PM
Wow, a lot of the early posts are way off base.

I have players for both. The two formats are 90% identical, the differences are the physical disk format, the interactivity layer, Blu-Ray can hold more and has a 2nd level of content encryption beyond AACS. What really matters are the codecs and they both support the same ones -- the best being Microsoft's VC1 for video and Dolby True HD for audio.

Personally I hoped HD-DVD would win because Sony and Philips tried to hijack the format and started this format war. But it's pretty clear Blu-Ray has the momentum now and HD-DVD would need a miracle. New releases have slowed to a trickle, and Toshiba is the only company making players. Microsoft makes a drive for the 360, but they'd rather see you download over XBox Live than get a disc.

At first HD-DVD had the lead as the Blu-Ray launch went horribly wrong (Samsung had the only player, a buggy one at that, at $1000). Then all the PS3 delays. HD-DVD had the momentum.

Then it swung completely the other way. In the end, as I predicted it comes down to the movies, and thus the studios that support which formats.

Warner, Toshiba's biggest ally, does both formats. The only studio exclusive to HD-DVD is Universal. There are several other studios exclusive to Blu-Ray, notably Fox, Sony, and Disney. Given that, Blu-Rays success was all but inevitable. The rest of the studios do both formats.

This format war was completely unneccessary. I'm not happy to see Sony win given their hijacking of the format, but somebody's got to win so let's get it over with. It's over as soon as Universal says it will do both. Blockbuster's decision will help nudge them in this direction.

janstett
Jun 18, 2007, 12:22 PM
Soon we´ll have full HD movie downloads at good speed from iTMS and others. I know I´d rather have a disk with all my movies than a shelf full of plastic covers.

So yes, the format war is over. Didn´t you know? The disc is dead.

Never! I'll always want to rip, but downloading HD movies just isn't there yet. (I have XBox live and have done it; have you?). It's fine for rentals (assuming you can wait hours/days for a download). But I want to own some movies. And take them from room to room (or home to home). Not so easy to do that with a download, especially when oppressive DRM is factored in.

Then let's gaze into the future, when a movie is ONLY available for limited viewings and no other way. When they go download-only, they can start putting draconian rules on how and when you can watch a movie you "own". Anybody remember the original "Divx", the pay-per-view DVD?

So I think wonks like me will always want a physical format. But the masses may settle for downloads.

Belly-laughs
Jun 18, 2007, 03:09 PM
A miracle, considering the iPhone has nothing like a HD capable screen :rolleyes:

It has a built-in sarcasm detector, though ;)

jono_3
Jun 18, 2007, 03:12 PM
the hd war was over a long time ago.....

SkyBell
Jun 18, 2007, 03:19 PM
the hd war was over a long time ago.....

It's nowhere NEAR over. Blockbuster isn't the only movie renting franchise in the world, you know...

Counterfit
Jun 18, 2007, 03:46 PM
Meh, just buy this (http://us.lge.com/superblu/).

dukebound85
Jun 18, 2007, 06:37 PM
It's nowhere NEAR over. Blockbuster isn't the only movie renting franchise in the world, you know...

but they are the biggest. who else, hollywood video and a bunch of small mom and pop stores?

this is meaningful i think

Dagless
Jun 18, 2007, 07:43 PM
Not a chance. Not for a good while yet anyway. I don't know how things are in the rest of the world but here in the UK virtually everyone's broadband is capped one way or another. Be it actually stopping you after a certain limit is reached or seriously reducing your speeds. Downloading vast amounts of HD content (namely movies) by the masses is just not viable, the internet as it stands would be brought to a stand still.

I concur. However I do see neither format performing very well, maybe it's me and my upscaling DVD player but I'm not too keen on paying double for a film on a HD format than regular DVD. What's the extra detail giving me? A better film?

Anyroad. I do believe downloads are the future. The first company to bring out a set top box that downloads HD films is going to win. I say this with a 512kbps internet connection.

DVD is here till the next big thing. And that's neither HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

GFLPraxis
Jun 18, 2007, 08:46 PM
A miracle, considering the iPhone has nothing like a HD capable screen :rolleyes:

Nor of course the bandwidth or storage space.

GFLPraxis
Jun 18, 2007, 08:48 PM
But it's pretty clear Blu-Ray has the momentum now and HD-DVD would need a miracle. New releases have slowed to a trickle, and Toshiba is the only company making players.


Now now...I wouldn't put it quite that way.

Blu-ray is kicking HD-DVD all over the place right now, but BOTH have pitiful sales. The majority of Blu-ray players is the poorest-selling console. More people watch movies than play games, so the fact that the game systems are selling better means adoption rates are still extremely low.

I think the first player to hit sub-$200 or sub-$100 is going to take off rapidly. The vast majority of people have simply not invested in either format. I don't know anybody with a HD-DVD or Blu-ray player.

janstett
Jun 19, 2007, 11:51 AM
Meh, just buy this (http://us.lge.com/superblu/).

It's a half-assed solution. Not only does it cost $1299, it isn't certified as an HD-DVD player (note the lack of an HD-DVD logo) because it's completely missing the interactivity layer and menus on HD-DVDs.

janstett
Jun 19, 2007, 12:18 PM
I concur. However I do see neither format performing very well, maybe it's me and my upscaling DVD player but I'm not too keen on paying double for a film on a HD format than regular DVD. What's the extra detail giving me? A better film?

If that's the case, watch VHS. Having better resolution makes the same movie better than on an inferior format. I've done the upscaling DVD players, the HD formats are simply better. You can't create detail that isn't there. Movies being constant, why wouldn't you want the highest quality presentation?




Anyroad. I do believe downloads are the future. The first company to bring out a set top box that downloads HD films is going to win. I say this with a 512kbps internet connection.

DVD is here till the next big thing. And that's neither HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.


Right now you can download HD movies on XBox 360. Today. One problem is the abymsally small 20 gig hard disk. You can't store many HD movies with that.

I'm sure iTunes will follow suit with HD movie downloads... But iTunes is also geared towards BUYING movies, not renting them. Then there's Amazon's Unbox service w/ Tivo. Then there's the PC companies Starz and MovieLink.

But I don't think downloads will meet my needs as a Home Theater enthusiast, due mostly to the download time and DRM involved. For ordinary people, it might work. But I don't think they will like waiting hours/days for downloads to finish. Then there are the net neutrality issues (ISPs wanting us to pay more for certain traffic).

Saying neither format is the future isn't the wisest thing, either. It may turn out to be true, but I'll give you an example -- HD-DVD and Blu Ray combined have outpaced DVD's first year on the market in 1997. See www.thedigitalbits.com for the story. I think both formats are hurt by the format war, and the step up from DVD to HD-DVD/Blu-Ray isn't as radical as the step up from VHS to DVD.

I will say again, the format with studio backing will win, and that's Blu-Ray. HD-DVD only has Universal as an exclusive studio, Blu-Ray has Sony/Columbia, Fox, and Disney. Look at this summer's blockbusters and which studios are involved, and it's clear HD-DVD's surrender is a matter of when, not if.

GFLPraxis
Jun 19, 2007, 12:38 PM
If that's the case, watch VHS. Having better resolution makes the same movie better than on an inferior format. I've done the upscaling DVD players, the HD formats are simply better. You can't create detail that isn't there. Movies being constant, why wouldn't you want the highest quality presentation?



A good quote someone posted on another board:


The thing about the HD formats is that their backers want to believe it will be like DVD dethroning VHS all over again. However, when DVD took down VHS, you could see the difference in picture quality on any TV set, not just special high-priced bleeding-edge TV sets. You also got a ****load of new features, like menus and onscreen games and multiple soundtracks and 5.1 channel surround sound, all of which were impossible with VHS. Not to mention no longer having to rewind the damned tape: something that us old-timers will remember without fondness.

There's nothing like that to drive people to adopt either HD format. The leap from "no features" to menus and other fancy features was done already with DVD. The addition of digital surround sound was done already with DVD. The extra picture quality is totally academic unless you have a special TV. Hell, even if you do have an HDTV, will you really want to buy a special HD version of a movie unless you're a hardcore movie purist? Suppose your wife says she wants to take it upstairs and watch it on the little bedroom TV? Oops, that's a regular TV with a regular DVD player! Can't watch it there!

janstett
Jun 19, 2007, 12:39 PM
Now now...I wouldn't put it quite that way.

Blu-ray is kicking HD-DVD all over the place right now, but BOTH have pitiful sales. The majority of Blu-ray players is the poorest-selling console. More people watch movies than play games, so the fact that the game systems are selling better means adoption rates are still extremely low.

Both formats are new. Sure they are hampered by the format war, but The Digital Bits pointed out that they have outsold DVD's first year on the market in 1997.

I bought my first DVD player in March 1998, an RCA for $350. Back then nobody I knew had a DVD player either, and stores didn't rent them either. I'm an early adopter -- just like I am now with Blu Ray and HD-DVD.


I think the first player to hit sub-$200 or sub-$100 is going to take off rapidly. The vast majority of people have simply not invested in either format. I don't know anybody with a HD-DVD or Blu-ray player.

HD-DVD will hit the low price point first, Toshiba is slashing prices to prop up the format, and cheap knock-off Chinese players are on the way. But the fact remains that Toshiba's the only name brand behind HD-DVD, and Universal the only studio supporting it exclusively.

It will be good in that it will drive the demand for cheap Blu-Ray players, but with poor hardware and studio support, HD-DVD is on the losing end.

Regarding the previous post ^, there is merit to the argument. The leap isn't as gigantic, I said so myself. Convincing the masses will be difficult. However, as someone who presumably understands the difference, do you want 480p or 1080p?

leekohler
Jun 19, 2007, 12:47 PM
Having seen both BR and HD-DVD and owning an HDMI upload DVD player myself- there really isn't enough of a difference in quality for me to care. The picture isn't that much better when you're sitting on the couch.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 19, 2007, 12:59 PM
A good quote someone posted on another board:

I think the quote you did says it all. There is not anything out there that is pushing me to want to get a blu-ray or HD-DVD player beside just the geek in me and well that voice is no where near strong enough to make me want to do it.

DVD had a lot of reasons that pushed me to want to go that way.
1. Noticeable picture quality increase on any TV
2. Menus and sense selection
3. Easier to just move to another part of the movie. not FF and guessing and checking. I can get with in a few mins of where I was very quickly
4. no rewinding. No finding a tape that needed to be rewound.
5. They are smaller and easier to store than VHS
6. I can watch DVDs on my laptop and computer


Lets see for blu-ray and HD have what advages does it have over DVD.
1. Slight picture quality increase that is hard to notice on even the HD TVs
2. Maybe can be put on one disk compared to what was on 2 DVDs (not a big deal considering it only special features on the 2nd DVD disk normally)

I think even if the price gets sub 200 I just do not see Blu-Ray or HD-DVD taking off. It just lacks the punching power DVD's had over VHS. DVD's took what a year or 2 to take off and hear we have blu-ray that had over a year and it still just getting off the ground.

GFLPraxis
Jun 19, 2007, 01:01 PM
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1

Now THAT'S an interesting video. They interview the bigshots from BlockBuster and the HD-DVD and Blu-ray camps.

I loved the HD-DVD guy.

"Why did blockbuster make this decision? Are you worried?"
"No, I think it was pretty logical. Most Blu-ray owners are people who bought PS3's, and there are no good games for the PS3 so they're resorting to renting games. Blu-rays actual sales numbers are nowhere near as good, but all the PS3 owners are renters because there's no games for them to play and so Blockbuster's decision makes sense."

(not word for word but that's the gist of it)

FoxyKaye
Jun 19, 2007, 01:07 PM
yeah blu-ray won because it has a cooler sounding name
That, and James Bond used Blu-Ray DVDs to review security camera footage in Casino Royale.

Zwhaler
Jun 19, 2007, 03:38 PM
I've liked BluRay from the start, I want it to win!

dextertangocci
Jun 19, 2007, 03:55 PM
Not a chance. Not for a good while yet anyway. I don't know how things are in the rest of the world but here in the UK virtually everyone's broadband is capped one way or another. Be it actually stopping you after a certain limit is reached or seriously reducing your speeds. Downloading vast amounts of HD content (namely movies) by the masses is just not viable, the internet as it stands would be brought to a stand still.

I'll have to agree with Belly-laughs on this one. The war was over before it started. I even download HD content and movies from the ITS. I live in South Africa and don't have a download cap. We pay more for it, but you get unlimited downloads. I'm sure you have that in a 1st world country:rolleyes:

aquajet
Jun 20, 2007, 01:01 AM
Having seen both BR and HD-DVD and owning an HDMI upload DVD player myself- there really isn't enough of a difference in quality for me to care. The picture isn't that much better when you're sitting on the couch.

I think this is ultimately why both formats will fail and go the way of the quadraphonic audio formats of the 1970s. The vast majority of people won't be convinced it's really worth it.

Here (http://p2pnet.net/index.php?page=comment&story=9163&comment=51704) is a good analysis which examines the parallels between these two format wars.

Nermal
Jun 20, 2007, 01:06 AM
A local news site ran this story and attached a poll for which format the readers prefer. HD DVD is still winning 1.7 to 1 (although the majority still chose "Wake me up when dual format players fall under $300").

srobert
Jun 20, 2007, 10:17 AM
Like many, I'm hoping one of the two format (either one) will quickly and clearly emerge as the accepted standard.

One thing that could sway me more quickly to one side or the other is a better experience for the user. So far, I'm not impressed by the boot-up times and responsiveness of the players available. The players I've tried in stores seemed to take almost a minute and a half to boot and load the discs. I hope this is something that can be improved and not a limitation of the format.

janstett
Jun 20, 2007, 10:45 AM
A local news site ran this story and attached a poll for which format the readers prefer. HD DVD is still winning 1.7 to 1 (although the majority still chose "Wake me up when dual format players fall under $300").

A much more accurate poll would be sales. DVDEmpire.com, where I have bought my DVDs from since 1998, gives people an insight into their sales figures here: http://www.dvdempire.com/Content/Features/hidef_wars.asp

Blu-Ray is outselling HD-DVD 70% to 30% this month.

janstett
Jun 20, 2007, 10:50 AM
Like many, I'm hoping one of the two format (either one) will quickly and clearly emerge as the accepted standard.

One thing that could sway me more quickly to one side or the other is a better experience for the user. So far, I'm not impressed by the boot-up times and responsiveness of the players available. The players I've tried in stores seemed to take almost a minute and a half to boot and load the discs. I hope this is something that can be improved and not a limitation of the format.

I have the RCA HDV5500 HD-DVD player (Toshiba 1st gen in reality) and it's basically a Pentium computer. The load time is attrocious. The XBox 360 (HD-DVD) and PS3 (Blu-Ray) are much more responsive, it's something that will become a non-issue.

I mentioned before that one of the big DVD sites, The Digital Bits, has been neutral for more than a year. They finally chose sides, and they chose Blu-Ray (for many of my reasons). You can read their thoughts here: http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/soapbox/soap060107.html


HD-DVD is not going to win this format war. In fact, one of two things is possible right now: Either Blu-ray will win, or neither format will win. But the best HD-DVD can hope for is to just keep hanging in the game as long as possible.
...
We simply CANNOT and WILL NOT recommend to our readers that they adopt a format that only has the full support of just a HANDFUL of major hardware manufacturers and ONLY A HANDFUL of the Hollywood studios - no matter how cheap the price - when a format of EQUAL quality and FAR GREATER studio and manufacturer support exists.
...
Simply put: If you're still not quite ready to get into high-def discs, then sit tight a little longer. The prices, selection and features of both hardware and software will all improve in the months ahead. On the other hand, if and when you ARE ready to get into high-def discs... we say Go Blu. It's really a no brainer, folks.

e˛Studios
Jun 20, 2007, 10:57 AM
HD DVD should just throw in the towel, basically its toshiba vs everyone else, they are bound to fail.

Seems a couple big box retailers are thinking to take HD DVD off their shelves already too from lacking sales. This news is yet another nail in the coffin for HD DVD.

Blockbuster's decision to support Blu-ray in all of its 1,450 stores is having a bigger impact than it seems. A tipster at an unnamed retailer tells us they've had more HD DVD player orders canceled over the last few days than they've seen over the entire life cycle. The kicker? All of them were canceled because of the Blockbuster announcement.

Not only that, new sales of HD DVD players are nonexistent, with Blu-ray being the only things moving now.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/hd-dvd-on-the-way-out%3F/blockbusters-blu+ray-endorsement-having-major-impact-on-hd-dvd-player-sales-270313.php

Ed

mrgreen4242
Jun 20, 2007, 11:46 AM
Personally I hoped HD-DVD would win because Sony and Philips tried to hijack the format and started this format war. But it's pretty clear Blu-Ray has the momentum now and HD-DVD would need a miracle. New releases have slowed to a trickle, and Toshiba is the only company making players. Microsoft makes a drive for the 360, but they'd rather see you download over XBox Live than get a disc.

It's not going to take a miracle... It will start to swing back the other way pretty soon, imo. By the holiday season there should be some <$200 HDDVD players at Walmart, etc. If that's the case, and BluRay doesn't have something competitive out by then I predict a lot of HDDVD players getting opened up on Dec. 25th.

Now, the main reason we're seeing a spike in BD sales is the PS3. While it's not been overly successful as a console, it has led to more BD players being in homes than HDDVD, and so it's natural to see a jump in disc sales. However, if an HDDVD player is released that is cheap enough ($199, maybe $149 on special sales, etc) and the cheapest BluRay player is twice that, we'll see a spike in HDDVD player household penetration and sales will start to swing the other way.

This will keep things profitable enough for both sides so they can keep going until the <$200 combo players are announced and they can both just "give up" trying to win... that's my guess anyways.

iGav
Jun 20, 2007, 12:43 PM
It's not going to take a miracle... It will start to swing back the other way pretty soon, imo. By the holiday season there should be some <$200 HDDVD players at Walmart, etc..

But will that make a difference if there is hardly any content available in that format?

Content is king.

Abstract
Jun 20, 2007, 08:57 PM
yeah blu-ray won because it has a cooler sounding name

HD-DVD is just awkward to say, and I really do feel the same way you do.

Now if HD-DVD was called DVD Xtreme like it should have been initially, it'd be more successful.

SkyBell
Jun 20, 2007, 09:18 PM
HD DVD should just throw in the towel, basically its toshiba vs everyone else, they are bound to fail.

Seems a couple big box retailers are thinking to take HD DVD off their shelves already too from lacking sales. This news is yet another nail in the coffin for HD DVD.



http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/hd-dvd-on-the-way-out%3F/blockbusters-blu+ray-endorsement-having-major-impact-on-hd-dvd-player-sales-270313.php

Ed

Ah, thats too bad. I really love Toshiba, and I really hate Sony. Still, Sony lost with Betamax, so I guess It's time for them to win with Blu-Ray.

Hope Toshiba, makes it out ok though, they're a great company. :(

Nermal
Jun 21, 2007, 02:21 AM
HD DVD should just throw in the towel, basically its toshiba vs everyone else, they are bound to fail.

Toshiba, Microsoft, Intel, Universal and probably a few more big names.

JFreak
Jun 21, 2007, 02:53 AM
I hope Blu-ray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_disc) will win. Blu-ray is ahead of HD-DVD and more companies will probably just choose Blu-ray because of it's lead and it's better than HD-DVD (at least in some parts). I can see Blu-ray being standard in 2009-2010 timeframe.

If the wikipedia article has the facts right, that proves BR will win. Why? According to the wiki article format comparison, HD-DVD is region-free (which means movie industry will not use it).

I only hope Apple will begin offering BTO drives as soon as possible. High cost has never prevented early adopters from buying and the more the early adopters buy the bigger the chance of factories upping the production capacity thus bringing the cost down.

Nermal
Jun 21, 2007, 02:57 AM
As soon as a developer confirms that Leopard can play HD DVD, I'm going to buy a drive (they're cheap here). If the movies are on HD DVD then I'll buy them on HD DVD. If not, I'll get them on regular DVD. If Blu-ray "wins" then I'll still be able to play all my movies; my drive won't mysteriously cease to function.

killerrobot
Jun 21, 2007, 04:49 AM
If the wikipedia article has the facts right, that proves BR will win. Why? According to the wiki article format comparison, HD-DVD is region-free (which means movie industry will not use it).


I see your point, but people are more mobile today than they were when the DVD came out. More international business trips, more international vacations... more people taking there laptops with them and watching DVD's on the flights.

I think it would be a great marketing idea to sell region-free HDDVD at airports. Jacked up prices. Travelers get to watch what they want and can buy them in any country and watch them to wherever they are going and not have to preload videos before the leave.

As far as the content theory--the PS3 had nothing developed when people started buying it (I think 3 games maybe). So not so sure about that.

I think the key is really whoever makes the first affordable player, like many others have said.

BTW, Blockbuster has been way wrong before on many things--hence all the other people that started doing it better and creating competition for them.

JFreak
Jun 21, 2007, 08:42 AM
II think it would be a great marketing idea to sell region-free (HD)DVD.

I think so too, but obviously movie industry thinks differently. After all, it was them who dictated the region system to the DVD in the first place! Everyone now thinks that 6 regions is too much (movie industry too) so the BR spec only has three. But I believe that movie industry will choose BR because it gives them a reasonable level of control.

Whatever movie industry chooses, that will win. I hope it's BR because spec-wise it's superior. I don't mind the cost, because HD content will be priced higher anyway, no matter the format.

e˛Studios
Jun 21, 2007, 09:47 AM
As soon as a developer confirms that Leopard can play HD DVD, I'm going to buy a drive (they're cheap here).


Considering that Apple is on the Blu Ray Disc Association Board of Directors just as Sony is i highly doubt Leopard will natively get anything but BD playback & recording.

Universal will crack soon, then its really over ;)

Ed

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/mar/10blu-ray.html

janstett
Jun 21, 2007, 09:50 AM
If the wikipedia article has the facts right, that proves BR will win. Why? According to the wiki article format comparison, HD-DVD is region-free (which means movie industry will not use it).

That's a good reason which I forgot about. There are a few more:

- AACS (the HD-DVD & Blu-Ray equivalent of DVD's CSS encryption) has already been cracked. That leaves HD-DVD wide open to piracy, which will scare off any studios not already committed to it. Blu-Ray offers an additional layer of encryption above AACS, so to the studios Blu-Ray still has some defenses that aren't breached.
- Sony will never support HD-DVD because it owns the format *AND* it owns Columbia Tri-Star. So forget about ever seeing Spider-Man, etc. on HD-DVD. Nobody is really that committed to HD-DVD. As I said before, Warner and Toshiba are very tight and were instrumental in advocating DVD. In this round, Warner is playing both sides of the fence and supporting both formats.

ReanimationLP
Jun 21, 2007, 02:26 PM
That's a good reason which I forgot about. There are a few more:

- AACS (the HD-DVD & Blu-Ray equivalent of DVD's CSS encryption) has already been cracked. That leaves HD-DVD wide open to piracy, which will scare off any studios not already committed to it. Blu-Ray offers an additional layer of encryption above AACS, so to the studios Blu-Ray still has some defenses that aren't breached.
- Sony will never support HD-DVD because it owns the format *AND* it owns Columbia Tri-Star. So forget about ever seeing Spider-Man, etc. on HD-DVD. Nobody is really that committed to HD-DVD. As I said before, Warner and Toshiba are very tight and were instrumental in advocating DVD. In this round, Warner is playing both sides of the fence and supporting both formats.

The only one thats playing kissy face with HD-DVD is Universal.

And a lot of Universal movies recently sucked. Fast and the Furious anyone? Gee Bob, lets encourage the riceboys. I swear, ever since that movie came out, I've seen a lot more people street racing their crappy cars that have all these flashy lights and big mufflers and stuff, and a bunch of teenagers wrapping themselves around poles in the process.

GFLPraxis
Jun 21, 2007, 03:43 PM
I'll have to agree with Belly-laughs on this one. The war was over before it started. I even download HD content and movies from the ITS. I live in South Africa and don't have a download cap. We pay more for it, but you get unlimited downloads. I'm sure you have that in a 1st world country:rolleyes:

...What are you talking about? ITS has no HD content.

And large parts of the world, including large parts of the U.S., still have no broadband access.


Whatever movie industry chooses, that will win. I hope it's BR because spec-wise it's superior. I don't mind the cost, because HD content will be priced higher anyway, no matter the format.


Spec-wise it is superior. But it's also more expensive, has more DRM (bad for consumers), region-locked, and controlled by Sony (who has a VERY bad record with this kind of thing, almost as bad as Microsoft when it comes to trying to forcibly control industries).

Have you really thought things through when proclaiming which you want to win, or are you just jumping at the bigger number?

GFLPraxis
Jun 21, 2007, 03:46 PM
Considering that Apple is on the Blu Ray Disc Association Board of Directors just as Sony is i highly doubt Leopard will natively get anything but BD playback & recording.


Considering Apple is ALSO on the DVD Forum backing HD-DVD I'd expect to see both.

e˛Studios
Jun 21, 2007, 04:29 PM
Considering Apple is ALSO on the DVD Forum backing HD-DVD I'd expect to see both.

So is Sony, whats your point again? Exactly ;)

Coded-Dude
Jun 21, 2007, 04:40 PM
Blu-ray Disc The BD+ Technologies, LLC is now issuing specifications for use by movie studios to begin using the BD Plus (BD+) content protection system. Essentially, BD+ is now ready for studio use on new releases. BD+ is a very fluid content protection system which allows many levels of protection from piracy, ensuring that studio content isn't copied for financial gain.

Most will note that Fox/MGM has been silent for the past few months while waiting for this technology to mature, so we should be seeing an announcement from them shortly in regards to new releases. Other studios, including those who currently don't support Blu-ray, have shown some interest as well, though it is unknown if any other studio besides Fox will make use of this technology at this time."
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=268


Its looking rather gloomy for HD DVD.

If the blockbuster announcement doesn't budge Universal.....this may
Anybody want to bet one how long it takes to get "cracked."

janstett
Jun 22, 2007, 09:26 AM
If Blu-ray "wins" then I'll still be able to play all my movies; my drive won't mysteriously cease to function.

Of course, you won't be able to get any new movies. And while your drive won't cease to function, your content will get stale. I have a MiniDisc player while my MiniDiscs still work, I don't really listen to them anymore. And even home theater enthusiasts will laugh at you if you pull out your LaserDisc collection.

Toshiba, Microsoft, Intel, Universal and probably a few more big names.

Toshiba The only company 100% behind the format.

Microsoft Would rather see you download an HD movie from XBox Live. Speculation now is that Microsoft is ONLY propping up HD-DVD to keep the HD disc war going long enough for both of them to lose.

“I don’t know that [HD] will be delivered on an optical disc in five to 10 years,” he said, pointing to downloads and broadband delivery. “At Microsoft, we’d rather it wasn’t [on a disc].”

You're counting on them to HELP HD-DVD?

What we've found most puzzling about this format war, is why Microsoft - a company that makes neither movies and TV shows or home theater hardware, is arguably the single biggest corporate supporter of the HD-DVD format outside of Toshiba and Universal. And though no one will say it on the record (though many industry insiders admit, off the record, that they believe it), we'd be surprised if Microsoft wasn't subsidizing both Toshiba's hardware losses and Universal's exclusive commitment to HD-DVD in some way. That's just our gut feeling. We can't prove it. But even Warner, which has a significant financial stake in the disc structure patents for DVD (and thus HD-DVD) has opted to support both high-def formats. Meanwhile, Microsoft has an office of "HD-DVD Evangelism" in house.

So why would Microsoft do this? The are three reasons why it makes good business sense for the company. First, having HD-DVD playback capability on their Xbox 360 (via the add-on drive) is a smart strategic move to counter-balance Sony's having Blu-ray playback capability built into their PS3 system. Second, HD-DVD uses Microsoft's VC-1 video compression codec almost exclusively. For a variety of reasons - not the least of which is that it's a great codec - this has encouraged a number of Blu-ray Disc studios to adopt VC-1 as well, so more and more Blu-ray releases utilize it too. This again benefits Microsoft. But more importantly, Microsoft's real long-term goal is to dominate the content downloading arena - particularly the downloading of entertainment content to devices in living rooms. That's what many industry observers, including many in Hollywood, see as the ultimate future of the home video industry. Selling lots of Xbox 360s and having everyone adopt the VC-1 codec (not to mention their iHD interactivity spec) both work to further Microsoft's goals in this area by helping to drive the growth of Xbox Live. According to the company's own recent press releases, Xbox Live is already "the number one online distributor of television and feature film content in the living room where it's most easy for consumers to access." In addition, "the service has quickly become the number two online distributor of television and feature film content, second to iTunes." Finally, Xbox Live is currently "the ONLY online distributor of major feature films and television programming in high definition (HD) resolution."

Intel Yeah, let me know when you see Intel HD-DVD players on the shelf at Best Buy. Hell, they aren't even strong arming PC manufacturers to include HD-DVD drives (again, Toshiba is the only one doing it). With many failed Intel initiatives such as Viiv, do you expect anything out of them?

Universal The only studio going it alone. You have to admit, Universal is screwed. It would be bad enough if the one studio supporting the format was a big one like Sony, Fox, or Disney. But for it to be a minor player like Universal, well, good luck.