Panther at Apple Expo?

[MacRumors]

MacBidouille (http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-07-09#6093) has received reports that Panther will be made available in its final form at Jobs' Keynote at Apple Expo on September 16th, 2003.

This correlates with an old report (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,993505,00.asp) from eWeek back in April, 2003:

Now that Apple Computer Inc. has let the cat halfway out of the bag about the next major revision to Mac OS X, sources report that the "Panther" release will reach end users in mid-September.

According to sources familiar with the forthcoming revisions to the Unix-based OS, Apple will freeze development on new features in May and finalize enhancements to the user interface in July.

[serpicolugnut]

If September was the date in mind, Jobs would have said so at WWDC. He didn't. MOF, he stated "before the end of the year", which means sometime in December.

The part about Panther being feature frozen in May seems inaccurate as well, since what was demoed at WWDC seemed like it was missing some key features for a major release.

I'd love to be wrong and have it available in Sept., but I seriously doubt it.

[Sonofhaig]

All I can say is YAY! Ya got to wonder though...
They've made OSX so inovative, what could they
possibly do in the next version after Panther?

[Fitzcaraldo]

Surely a coupon for G5 Owners then?

[msassman]

Well, at least the purchasers of the New Powermac G5s will be eligable for the Mac OS Up To Date program :)

I can't wait!!

[yossele]

I guess I'll fly down to pick up my copy!

[MacMarino]

Well thats great. Hopefully it comes out then instead of at the end of the year. I hope there are great improvements to iChat 2 for the final version. I can wait to try it all out!

Macmarino:D

[soosy]

I certainly hope so! Can't wait! I'm still hoping they include appearance themes....

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by Sonofhaig
All I can say is YAY! Ya got to wonder though...
They've made OSX so inovative, what could they
possibly do in the next version after Panther?

More snappiness™.
Better versions of new things announced for Longhorn.

AppleMatt

[CrackedButter]

The sooner it comes out the better. I want a new PBook and would prefer if it came with 10.3 pre installed, saving me the extra in having to purchase it off the shelf.

Hopefully before the new college year starts as well.
A new 15" Alubook with 10.3 mmm...

[lilpig8]

September would be great but I also think that Jobs would have said that Pather would be released in September, at the WWDC.
Either way I will be buying myself a copy and the sooner the better.

[kansast]

I would have to count myself among those who believe that September would be too early. Don't get wrong, I wish it was ready today!
But on the other hand, seems like MacBidouille had some pretty good calls lately ?? Only time will tell.

[Rincewind42]

I seriously doubt that Panther will be delivered in September. Mostly because I think that if that were going to be the case, Apple would have said so at WWDC and the G5s wouldn't ship until Panther was ready. Why make 10.2.7 production quality if 10.3 will be ready to go by then?

[nuckinfutz]

MacDoobie says September so you know that's wrong. Kinda like them saying the G5's were boxed up and ready to ship for WWDC right. Hey where's the "Rolling on the floor laughing my arse off" smiley when I need it.

[Timelord03]

I think Jobs was playing safe by saying "by the end of the year". That means it could be delivered in September/October, no later than December 31. If things fall behind, he gave Apple programmers a nice cushion to get everything up to par.

Remeber 10.1 beta was giving out at WWDC in 2001 and the final was haned out at Seybold Seminar that September. The same could happen here, except Seybold is a couple of weeks ealier this year and Paris Expo has the better date this time.

I don't expect many more features to be added, if any do.

The real question is will the 64-bit version be ready at the same time? And do G5 owners get a free upgrade to it when it ships?

[alandail]

There's not a chance it's shipping in september. There's just still too much work to get done and tested to ship that soon. It hasn't even been seeded to all developers yet, but rather only those who attended WWDC.

[pkradd]

According to some reports from WWDC and a comment made by Phil Schiller G5 owners will get a free update for Panther. There will be an update card in the box. This is standard procedure for Apple.

[MacKid]

Originally posted by serpicolugnut
If September was the date in mind, Jobs would have said so at WWDC. He didn't. MOF, he stated "before the end of the year", which means sometime in December.

The part about Panther being feature frozen in May seems inaccurate as well, since what was demoed at WWDC seemed like it was missing some key features for a major release.

I'd love to be wrong and have it available in Sept., but I seriously doubt it.

You know how Stevie said 3.0GHz for the G5 by WWDC next year? Since he's always one for the wow factor, what do you bet that they have new G5's by next MWSF, and either international iTMS or Windows (urrgh) iTMS (OR BOTH!! not likely. . .) along with Panther for the Apple Expo?

Then I looked at my post and said to myself: Hey, since the 3.0 GHz isn't a new computer or anything. . .just an upgrade, it will probably happen between MWSF and the next WWDC.

[pgwalsh]

Nice... Available in it's final form on my b-day... :P

[MacKid]

Originally posted by Timelord03
I don't expect many more features to be added, if any do.

The real question is will the 64-bit version be ready at the same time? And do G5 owners get a free upgrade to it when it ships?

The only reason I'm buying 10.3 is because it has Exposé. . .


and it's a new OS.

But that's beside the point, why would Apple give G5 owners free upgrades? They wouldn't. I'm 100% sure.


They won't.

I'm pessimistic today.

But they still won't.

[aikomhoch]

I still wonder why this book (which was reported here months ago) would be listed on amazon. Of course, it's now July, and it still says the book isn't out.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/190434464X/qid=1057762082/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-1431687-6363036?v=glance&s=books#product-details

What I mean is, why is a 10.3 book scheduled to be released this month?

[MacKid]

Originally posted by Rincewind42
I seriously doubt that Panther will be delivered in September. Mostly because I think that if that were going to be the case, Apple would have said so at WWDC and the G5s wouldn't ship until Panther was ready. Why make 10.2.7 production quality if 10.3 will be ready to go by then?

Why would Apple have said so in the first place? At MWSF did they tell you that they were making G5's and to expect them at the next WWDC? Did they tell you at the Thanksgiving Sale that shortly new PowerBooks would be announced? If not, why tell you about Panther?

Seriously?

[Dunepilot]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
MacDoobie says September so you know that's wrong. Kinda like them saying the G5's were boxed up and ready to ship for WWDC right. Hey where's the "Rolling on the floor laughing my arse off" smiley when I need it.

Okay, so MacBidouille didn't get everything right about the WWDC, but they do have some good contacts, and most of the interesting, pertinent (and damn it, exciting) information preceding WWDC came from either them or from Thinksecret.

When you've finished "Rolling on the floor laughing my arse off", why not set up your own rumours site, if you think you can do better :rolleyes:

[MacKid]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
More snappiness™.
Better versions of new things announced for Longhorn.

AppleMatt

What is Longhorn?

This is pretty stupid, there was this whole debate a few months ago and I remember arguing with a bunch of people. . .

And now I've forgotten what it is.

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by Rincewind42
I seriously doubt that Panther will be delivered in September. Mostly because I think that if that were going to be the case, Apple would have said so at WWDC and the G5s wouldn't ship until Panther was ready. Why make 10.2.7 production quality if 10.3 will be ready to go by then?

Perhaps 10.2.7 also contains bug fixes/improvements to 10.2.6, so it will eventually be released to everyone (like 10.2.3 was even though that was thought to just include PowerBook support)

AppleMatt

[lilpig8]

If the operating system comes out in September as this article say Apple will give free upgrades. It is too close to the release of the G5 not to include it. But I would assume that if it ships in December there will not be a FREE upgrade but rather a discounted upgrade for anyone who bought a computer after a certain date. Which is how they did Jaguar.

[MacKid]

Originally posted by CrackedButter
The sooner it comes out the better. I want a new PBook and would prefer if it came with 10.3 pre installed, saving me the extra in having to purchase it off the shelf.

Hopefully before the new college year starts as well.
A new 15" Alubook with 10.3 mmm...

Well, you're going to get a VERY new 15" pretty soon. . .

[MacKid]

Originally posted by lilpig8
If the operating system comes out in September as this article say Apple will give free upgrades. It is too close to the release of the G5 not to include it. But I would assume that if it ships in December there will not be a FREE upgrade but rather a discounted upgrade for anyone who bought a computer after a certain date. Which is how they did Jaguar.

What makes you so sure Apple wouldn't want the money? They can't just go out giving away free operating systems, when average people are charged $129 for them. . . :cool: ;)

[frozenstar]

Originally posted by MacKid
What is Longhorn?

This is pretty stupid, there was this whole debate a few months ago and I remember arguing with a bunch of people. . .

And now I've forgotten what it is.

It is the codename for the successor to Windows XP.

[lilpig8]

Originally posted by MacKid
What makes you so sure Apple wouldn't want the money? They can't just go out giving away free operating systems, when average people are charged $129 for them. . . :cool: ;)

I am sure they want the money but I am just going by past experience. I bought my ibook in June of last year and recieved Jaguar for on ly $29 when it came out in Aug.

[nuckinfutz]

When you've finished "Rolling on the floor laughing my arse off", why not set up your own rumours site, if you think you can do better

God ..I need that smiley again. I didn't make the rules. I was told Page 2 was for "shakey" rumors and Macdoobie is pretty damn shakey. I wouldn't rely on a damn thing they say. Hell a broken clock is right twice a day. They go lucky on the past and now their biking 'info starved" Mac users and playing us like chumps.

At any rate Sept could be the day but it could go later depending on a variety of issues. Personally I'd like to see a Nov/Dec timeframe. I'd like to see a few more architectural changes. Panther in it's current form is nice but there just seems to be something missing.

[jcontonio]

I seriously doubt September. It seems like there is just too many more features that need to be implemeneted, bugs tracked, and spit and polish.

I want to see more in this OS than just Expose and Fast User Switching. The finder is great but I'd like a little more for my 129 bucks.

[frozenstar]

I highly doubt it will be released in September. It's just way too unstable right now. Forget features; they need to focus on stability and speed.

[jouster]

Originally posted by Timelord03
The real question is will the 64-bit version be ready at the same time? And do G5 owners get a free upgrade to it when it ships?

What 64 bit version? Panther is a 32 bit OS. Apple has stated this. It can use some 64 bit calls, but it is not a 64 bit OS.

[JoeRadar]

Originally posted by serpicolugnut
The part about Panther being feature frozen in May seems inaccurate as well, since what was demoed at WWDC seemed like it was missing some key features for a major release.
The CDs given out at WWDC were probably burned several weeks prior to WWDC. All too frequently a WWDC presenter would show something really cool and then say "the seed you have does not have this feature". So there were a lot of features Apple had and were stable enough for demos but did not make it into the seed.

Although, in general I agree. I think Apple needs more time.

I'd love to be wrong and have it available in Sept., but I seriously doubt it.
My guess: Jobs will announce the ship date in September.

[macnews]

Why do I feel like most of the posts on here are saying:

"Maybe Panther will come out in Sept. but I doubt it, it might come out in Jan or maybe December but maybe between Sept or Dec."

No logical reasoning. Not being out to developers? How many companies had versions BEFORE WWDC? Then everyone at WWDC got a copy (I think there were what, 1000 attendees? I could be way off here - can anyone confirm?). I would think if you were a developer not at WWDC you would have gotten a copy by now - anyone fall in that category that can confirm/deny? Plus, didn't Apple do something similar with Safari back in March? They pulled all developer copies, or only gave out limited ones. Made some fixes, then released to developers again in April/May to release the "full" version in June? I know there is a major difference between a program and an OS but I think this goes to show Apple tends to have their ducks in a row better than some other OS releasing companies. Also, 10.2 was shown in July and shipped by mid August. Lastly, if 10.3 is not 64 bit then why the reason for the major delay? There were not THAT many new features in 10.3 that would require taking until Dec to release. If we were talking 64 bit, I could understand. Look at how fast we were getting Jaguar updates - WITH a special version for the G5!

So, my prediction - if 10.3 is not 64 bit I think a Sept. release date is reasonable. If it will be 64 bit (still a rumor, I haven't seen a statement from Apple confirming this) then I would say Dec or even Jan a more likely time frame.

As to price, based on what they did last year for Jaguar I would expect a Sept release to cost G5 buyers a $29 upgrade - to cover some pretty friggin expensive "shipping" costs. If it is a Dec release, expect to pay full cost unless you bought your G5 within the past 90 days.

[cubist]

I think MacBidouille isn't doing that badly lately, for a rumors site.

Steve Jobs is doing the keynote at the Apple Expo? (Does he speak French?) I didn't know that. If that's so, he'll probably use that to announce...
15.4" Aluminum Powerbook!
New displays with iMac arms!!
European iTunes Music Store!
Big price cuts for European customers!!!

[Trekkie]

Originally posted by MacKid
Windows (urrgh) iTMS

Don't urrgh it. If Apple can get it out on Windows prior to MS coming out with something of theirs Apple will get traction that they need.

The more user base they have the more labels will sign up the more of a defacto 'standard' it will become.

Windows is pushing hard to own all the media from DVDs, to CDs, etc.

If Apple has something better & available earlier, they have a better chance of winning.

[Trekkie]

Originally posted by jouster
What 64 bit version? Panther is a 32 bit OS. Apple has stated this. It can use some 64 bit calls, but it is not a 64 bit OS.

Nor does it need to be. The G5 is a great 'step stone' chip to move us from 32 to 64bit. Better than anything Intel has. AMD Opteron is the closest chip to the G5 as far as features/upgrade foot path.

[jouster]

So perhaps the 980 will see the intro of a full 64 bit OS.

But we can speculate about that later!

[kb9000]

I used the WWDC Panther seed and it became my primary OS because it works that much better for me. Exposé is, in my opinion, the greatest user interface addition I have ever seen and that alone was enough for me to use Panther (despite the few bugs I encounter). Usability has gone up in the same fashion as from 10.0.x to 10.1 which is phenomenal. I wasn't even this excited about Jaguar last summer!

[mustang_dvs]

Originally posted by macnews
Not being out to developers? How many companies had versions BEFORE WWDC? Then everyone at WWDC got a copy (I think there were what, 1000 attendees? I could be way off here - can anyone confirm?). I would think if you were a developer not at WWDC you would have gotten a copy by now - anyone fall in that category that can confirm/deny?

I am an Apple Developer Connection Member, but did not attend WWDC. No, I have not yet received a copy of Panther, in fact, although Apple intends to include a developer seed to all ADC select and premier members, as of 5 minutes ago, it has not yet made a decision about when that seeding of Panther will ship. So, honestly, September seems very very soon for a final release, if the main corps of Apple developers have not yet received their copy of the developer preview.

[simX]

While I have no real knowledge of whether Apple will be able to ship Panther by September, I do know that when I went to the Palo Alto Apple Store to watch the WWDC keynote, the salesperson announced (at the end of the keynote) that Panther was expected around a September timeframe (along with the usual blah blah blah about the Apple Pro Card).

Take that as you will.

I'm really excited about Panther, though.. I want expose (how in the world do you write accented characters in Windows, anyway? -- stupid Windows machine at work :mad: )!

[fabsgwu]

Originally posted by Timelord03
The real question is will the 64-bit version be ready at the same time? And do G5 owners get a free upgrade to it when it ships?

No it's not, Panther will be a 32 bit, app! Haven't you been keeping up with the news lately?! :confused:

[u2mr2os2]

10.3 will not be 64 bit. It will allow 64 bit features to be utilized, but this type of migration is not easy, and doing it in one big flip of the switch would be prone to problems.

It is a common strategy to no make major hardware changes at the same time as major software changes. First change hardware to 64 bit, get that working, then later change the OS to 64 bit. 10.3 is mostly other UI/feature/stability updates.

Wintel only knows the other way. This makes the transition jolting, and they want it that way because they think the only way you'll move to the new stuff is if the old stuff (32 bit) suddenly is a pain to use.

[Dale Sorel]

Panther will be out around September, just like Jaguar was last year :cool:

[MacFan25]

September seem like a reasonable date for it to go on sale. And having it go on sale at the Apple expo seem even better, since it'll get more publicity.

[fpnc]

I think September __was__ the generally agreed upon (or even pre-announced by Apple) ship date for Panther. However, that was before WWDC when Steve Jobs said "before the end of the year." Thus, I took Steve's statement as an admission of a slip in the schedule. Therefore, I do __not__ believe that we'll see a final release of Panther in September. I suspect that it will be much closer to the end of the year. And, of course, it will not be a true 64-bit OS, I made that observation even before WWDC.

[dongmin]

Originally posted by macnews
Why do I feel like most of the posts on here are saying:

"Maybe Panther will come out in Sept. but I doubt it, it might come out in Jan or maybe December but maybe between Sept or Dec."

No logical reasoning. Not being out to developers? How many companies had versions BEFORE WWDC? Then everyone at WWDC got a copy (I think there were what, 1000 attendees? I could be way off here - can anyone confirm?). I would think if you were a developer not at WWDC you would have gotten a copy by now - anyone fall in that category that can confirm/deny? Plus, didn't Apple do something similar with Safari back in March? They pulled all developer copies, or only gave out limited ones. Made some fixes, then released to developers again in April/May to release the "full" version in June? I know there is a major difference between a program and an OS but I think this goes to show Apple tends to have their ducks in a row better than some other OS releasing companies. Also, 10.2 was shown in July and shipped by mid August. Lastly, if 10.3 is not 64 bit then why the reason for the major delay? There were not THAT many new features in 10.3 that would require taking until Dec to release. If we were talking 64 bit, I could understand. Look at how fast we were getting Jaguar updates - WITH a special version for the G5!

So, my prediction - if 10.3 is not 64 bit I think a Sept. release date is reasonable. If it will be 64 bit (still a rumor, I haven't seen a statement from Apple confirming this) then I would say Dec or even Jan a more likely time frame.

As to price, based on what they did last year for Jaguar I would expect a Sept release to cost G5 buyers a $29 upgrade - to cover some pretty friggin expensive "shipping" costs. If it is a Dec release, expect to pay full cost unless you bought your G5 within the past 90 days.

if it's gonna reach end-users by mid-September, then it has to go GM before September. Seems a bit too soon to get all the bugs out. Two months to beta test a major update? What was the timeframe before?

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by MacKid
Why would Apple have said so in the first place? At MWSF did they tell you that they were making G5's and to expect them at the next WWDC? Did they tell you at the Thanksgiving Sale that shortly new PowerBooks would be announced? If not, why tell you about Panther?

Seriously?

But they did announce a ship date for Panther - by the end of the year. If Apple really thought they could get it out by September then Steve would have said 'by the end of Summer' or 'by the end of September' but he didn't. So between that and other things I've heard I'd say that September is very unlikely.

Originally posted by AppleMatt
Perhaps 10.2.7 also contains bug fixes/improvements to 10.2.6, so it will eventually be released to everyone (like 10.2.3 was even though that was thought to just include PowerBook support)

I think the general assumption is that the 15" AlBook will be very similar to the 12" & 17" AlBooks. I've also heard that 10.2.7 will only appear on G5 machines.

Originally posted by macnews
Why do I feel like most of the posts on here are saying:

"Maybe Panther will come out in Sept. but I doubt it, it might come out in Jan or maybe December but maybe between Sept or Dec." No logical reasoning.

Maybe because that is what Steve J said? He said on stage by the end of the year, which means by the end of July, August, September, October, November or December. Since September is the end of summer, and since developers only got a 'better version' at the end of June, I think we can rule out July & August. September is hard to rule out because of all the trade shows and the historical evidence (10.1 & 10.2 both out before the end of summer). But since Steve did say 'End of the year' it is easier to give Sept a 'Not Likely'.

Not being out to developers? How many companies had versions BEFORE WWDC? Then everyone at WWDC got a copy (I think there were what, 1000 attendees? I could be way off here - can anyone confirm?). I would think if you were a developer not at WWDC you would have gotten a copy by now - anyone fall in that category that can confirm/deny?

Before WWDC, I can probably be pretty correct in there being fewer than a dozen devs that had seen Panther (and likely only Apple had it). There were nearly 4000 attendies iirc, and each of them got a copy of Panther, Panther Server, and XCode. As far as developers who didn't goto the conference, I'm not certain if any of them have gotten, but I'd presume they would get their copy next month wwith their ADC mailings.

Also, 10.2 was shown in July and shipped by mid August. Lastly, if 10.3 is not 64 bit then why the reason for the major delay? There were not THAT many new features in 10.3 that would require taking until Dec to release. If we were talking 64 bit, I could understand. Look at how fast we were getting Jaguar updates - WITH a special version for the G5!

Yes 10.2 was shown in July - but it was given to WWDC attendies in May. Last year's WWDC keynote was not a public event like this years' was so you really can't compare MWNY last year to WWDC this year. And no, 10.3 will not be 64-bit but it must support running more code in 64-bit mode. I wouldn't be surprised if 10.2.7 had a LOT of glue code in the kernal so that 10.2.x kernal extensions would run unmodified. 10.3 will require 64-bit clean kernal extensions however.

So, my prediction - if 10.3 is not 64 bit I think a Sept. release date is reasonable. If it will be 64 bit (still a rumor, I haven't seen a statement from Apple confirming this) then I would say Dec or even Jan a more likely time frame.

As to price, based on what they did last year for Jaguar I would expect a Sept release to cost G5 buyers a $29 upgrade - to cover some pretty friggin expensive "shipping" costs. If it is a Dec release, expect to pay full cost unless you bought your G5 within the past 90 days.

10.3 will not be 64-bit, but if you use what they consider as a 'developer complete' version as a mile stone, then 10.3 is already a month 'later' than 10.2 was, so if it does come in September it will probably be very late in September.

As for G5 buyers, their plight will likely depend on when they buy and when Panther ships. The up-to-date program lets you get the update for $19.95 (which isn't unreasonable if they ship it next day post). But no one will know until someone gets their G5 and posts here if there is some special offer in the box.

Edit: Oops, nearly 4000 devs, not 400 devs :D.

[wms121]

like we have a real choice here.

Current 64 bit apps on AIX 5.1:

Java

LDAP

mathematica (smp version)

Maya

some HDTV editing programs..

and lots of old IBM code

Get your lists ready...its gonna be a long summer in 2004..

[alandail]

as I pointed out on page one of this thread - there just isn't enough time to ship it in september. The only developers who have it are the ones at WWDC, which Steve said represented only 1% of all developers. Does anyone really think they can release a major upgrade to the OS in Sept that they haven't even seeded to all developers in mid July? In order to release in Sept, they have to go GM 2-3 weeks before that so they ahve something to ship. Does that even leave a month to get multiple builds into developers hands and to the required testing and bug fixes?

What will likely happen in Sept is the ship date will be announced. Apple will then do plenty of promotion to hype that ship date.

[wms121]

a few more tidbits..

64 bit Fortran and 64 bit BASIC (check your AIX catalog)

Some stuff at SGI

http://techpubs.sgi.com

Erlang/OTP - R8B-2

http://www.erlang.org/ml-archive/erlang-questions/200208/msg00109.html

64 bit Apache

http://tyachiv.com.ua

64 bit Linux odds and ends

http://www2.linuxbase.org/spec/ELF/ppc64/spec/book1.html

http://www.advogato.org/article/97.html

7.1RC3

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2001-04/msg00252.php

and.....

HAL 9000 type stuff for you people with research grants..

OPEN CYC

http://www.opencyc.org

..ask me about 256 bit apps...

WW

[DHagan4755]

My interpretation of the Apple Expo is that is when they will announce Panther's availability, say late October. I don't think it will be on sale or shipping at the Expo.