Are Apple's notebooks generally of low quality?

[dingdongbubble]

I have heard a lot about Macbooks heating up and all that stuff. Now is it true that in general Apple's notebooks are made using low quality material or something? Can the notebooks be classed as unreliable? Is Apple known for making cheap notebooks? Or is this all just in SOME notebooks like other manufacturers.

[psychofreak]

No, the original Core Duos had abnormally high defect rates, but they're good now...

[bartelby]

You'll hear more from people who have problems than those who have no problems. This gives a false impression of the quality of the products.
It's a small percentage of products that have problems.

[dingdongbubble]

So is this defect rate normal for the current Macbooks lineup or is it still higher than other manufacturers?

[bartelby]

So is this defect rate normal for the current Macbooks lineup or is it still higher than other manufacturers?

No idea, I don't pay any attention to other manufacturers.

[psychofreak]

So is this defect rate normal for the current Macbooks lineup or is it still higher than other manufacturers?

No figures here, but they seem about the same - and Apple support is a LOT easier to deal with if you do have a problem (I have had experiences of being passed for ages between Dell and Microsoft about PCs problems)

[dingdongbubble]

In my opinion Apple Support IS easier to handle than other manufacturers.

[netdog]

Actually, while Rev. B MBPs seem to have had few issues, the new SR MBPs seem to be acting more like Rev. A machines. Very hot with display problems. I am sure they will get these issues sorted though. MBPs and MBs are FAR from low quality.

[Scarlet Fever]

the Rev A MBPs were terrible, but Apple fixed all the issues in the second revision.

Rev A MBs had some problems. I had the staining and random shutdowns , but after getting a replacement heatsink and keyboard, its working like a charm. I hear they are of fantastic quality now.

I've used a C2D MBP, and it's a lot better than the CD ones. Apple don't make cheap computers, so when a problem comes along, they usually get on top of it pretty quickly.

[FleurDuMal]

I have one of them 'notorious' Rev A Macbooks and it's fine. It's only natural that those with problems shout louder than those who don't.

[Erasmus]

HAHAHA! Low Quality!!!

Apple's notebooks are of the highest quality. Why else would they bother using aircraft grade aluminium to build a sub 2.5kg 1" thick notebook with the fastest available parts, when they could make a 1.5" plastic 3.5kg ugly brick like everyone else?

Dodgy screens is not Apple's fault. Heating issues caused by too much thermal paste may or may not be Apple's fault, but it does not affect the performance of the computer anyway, so it's not really much of an issue.

MBPs are designed to be what I would say is the best all-round notebook you can buy for Professionals. MBs are designed to be the best all-round notebooks for price minded average consumers. They are in no sense of the word "low quality", and are entirely the opposite.

The vast, vast majority of Apple notebooks are pretty much perfect, as many threads here will attest to.
A poll I made a while ago that seems somewhat appropriate:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=281823
The results speak for themselves, really. Even though Core Duo Macs were supposedly "terrible".

And people should go vote, post, and resurrect this thread! ;)

[Eraserhead]

So is this defect rate normal for the current Macbooks lineup or is it still higher than other manufacturers?

The impression I get is that in terms of quality it goes like this:

$400 eMachines/ACER < Dell Inspiration/HP Mid Range < Apple < Thinkpad/Dell Latitude/Other Business Laptop.

So Apple's quality is pretty good, and excellent for a consumer machine, but if you are prepared to spend enough you can get better quality hardware elsewhere.

[Sbrocket]

(Wait, I'm still on Mac Forums, right? Yes that does seem to ask if Apple notebooks are low quality... :confused: :confused: )

No, Apple computers are the farthest thing from low quality. I'd go in-depth more, but I'm still not exactly sure what possessed you to think that Apple notebooks are low quality and so I'm confused...

[Jamiephofe]

I find it worrying when members post how amazingly perfect apple's notebooks (or computers in general) are.

I have lectures every day which are run using mac pro's and macbooks and they are far from reliable.

Even when I went into university last week to ask my tutor his opinion on the notebooks and he used his SR 17" macbook pro to access apples website, each time he clicked on the macbook pro section, his macbook pro froze. In the end we had to give up....

Reliable? Hardly. Better than a Dell running Vista? I'd say about the same, although it's worth mentioning that I have at least 1 class a week where a mac freezes several times. My university is also a digidesign protools and apple logic pro training facility, so we don't exactly have bad gear.

Please don't flame though, I'm actually spending &#163;2000 on a notebook and logic this winter. :P

- Jamie

[psychofreak]

HAHAHA! Low Quality!!!
The first CD macbooks had a 1/12 defect rate !!!

[Eraserhead]

I have lectures every day which are run using mac pro's and macbooks and they are far from reliable.

It depends how they are looked after, our Linux machines are far less reliable than our Windows machines even though they run the same hardware, and Linux is generally very stable, simply because the Windows machines get more love.

[Jamiephofe]

It depends how they are looked after, our Linux machines are far less reliable than our Windows machines even though they run the same hardware, and Linux is generally very stable, simply because the Windows machines get more love.

Very true. I was under the impression that Mac OSX didn't need quite as much attention as a windows machine though. I'm not too concerned about the random freezing in lectures as I won't be buying a Mac Pro. What worries me is having the Apple website consistently freeze a Macbook Pro. It's only safari ffs, doesn't look good for 32 track mixes. :p

It makes me concerned when I'll be investing $4000+

I'm also not liking what I'm hearing about Apple stores refusing replacements after the third time, seems fairly illegal to me.

- Jamie

[maverick808]

Ugh, I hate the blinkered viewpoint you get on this forum. I love Macs, but I believe it is a fact that Apple have serious quality problems with their notebooks. Let's look at the list of defects that have been widely reported, and that I have seen on every single recent notebook revision.

1.67GHz PowerBook (Rev E I believe): Horizontal line issue on screen of all machines.

2GHz MacBook Pro (Rev A): Whine from motherboard, overheating, battery swelling, display flicker at low brightness settings. MagSafe power cables fraying and breaking. Noisy right fans.

1.83GHz MacBook: Top case discoloring, extreme overheating leading to widespread random shutdowns and even case fracturing. MagSafe power cables fraying and breaking. Noisy "moo-like" fan.

2.33GHz MacBook Pro (Rev B): Grainy displays, Apple used an extremely cheap display instead of a premium one.

2.4GHz MacBook Pro (Rev C): Cheap displays used again. Yellow tint at bottom of screen is widespread problem. Overheating seems to be a problem on these too. And again, flicker at low brightness settings returns on some machines.

In short, Apple's notebook releases since 2005 or earlier have generally suffered widespread problems due to abysmal quality control, cheap components and design flaws. Now, before someone replies saying "well mine is perfect!!!!!" please note that I am saying these issues are extremely widespread, but not on every single machine. It is possible to get the odd machine that doesn't have flaws. But you only have to look around these forums, Apple's own forums, and generally around the Web to see that the issues I have stated have indeed affected a massive number of Apple's notebook customers.

Please, I think Apple make superb software and DESIGN amazing machines. However, let's be honest, their quality control currently just plain sucks.

[odaiwai]

Even when I went into university last week to ask my tutor his opinion on the notebooks and he used his SR 17" macbook pro to access apples website, each time he clicked on the macbook pro section, his macbook pro froze. In the end we had to give up....


I don't believe this for a second. I've often experienced plenty of odd behaviour from Safari and Firefox, but freezing the entire machine? Never. And doing it on Apple.com? If there's one site which is going to work on a mac it's that one.

[Jamiephofe]

Please, I think Apple make superb software and DESIGN amazing machines. However, let's be honest, their quality control currently just plain sucks.

It's a shame they spend so much time designing the perfect notebook then get a Chinese infant to build it.

[Jamiephofe]

I don't believe this for a second. I've often experienced plenty of odd behaviour from Safari and Firefox, but freezing the entire machine? Never. And doing it on Apple.com? If there's one site which is going to work on a mac it's that one.

Believe me, it happened. My tutor tried accessing the macbook pro area of the website 3 times and it froze all 3 times. Obviously he could do the apple equivalent of ctrl + alt + del to fix it, but it shouldn't happen in the first place.

True, we didn't spend the time restarting the machine, but for that price should we have to?

- Jamie

[Sopranino]

The first CD macbooks had a 1/12 defect rate !!!

If you are going to post 'actual' statistics please post the source. Otherwise it is nothing more than a fictitious number.

Sopranino

[andiwm2003]

apples notebooks in general have superb design and quality for the prize. i compared them to the pc notebooks in our company (sony, ibm/lenovo, acer, dell).

they appear to be crappy for two reasons:

revision A problems. apple throws out core duos or LED screens or new case designs and of course there are initially problems that get widely reported. but usually after 3-4 month production gets better and the notebooks are fine.

apple users are anal. many things they complain about like yellow tinted LED screens, bent cases happen in other PC notebooks as well. people just accept it and do not complain. note that most complains of apple users are fully justified. however PC users seem to accept a lower standard.

my two cents derived from my experience in a company with ~200 people. generalizitions are of course always a bit arbitrary. but in general apples notebooks are great, sometimes they could be better.

[Eraserhead]

Very true. I was under the impression that Mac OSX didn't need quite as much attention as a windows machine though.

Well yes, but when they receive no attention (like our Linux machines) then problems will develop.

Safari crashing on Apples website sounds weird though, could be a hardware issue or a reinstall could be in order.

[Jamiephofe]

revision A problems. apple throws out core duos or LED screens or new case designs and of course there are initially problems that get widely reported. but usually after 3-4 month production gets better and the notebooks are fine.


That's all well and good, but what about people like yourselves on the forum who have paid for one of the Revision A machines. When production is at a good standard I'm sure Apple won't replace your machines for you.

That's why I'm thinking of buying this revisions notebook just before it is updated, I'm more likely to good a very nice quality machine then.

[Sopranino]

I have heard a lot about Macbooks heating up and all that stuff. Now is it true that in general Apple's notebooks are made using low quality material or something? Can the notebooks be classed as unreliable? Is Apple known for making cheap notebooks? Or is this all just in SOME notebooks like other manufacturers.

Apples notebooks are made using very high quality materials (high quality aluminum enclosures for example). They are NOT unreliable. I've been using a PB G4 1GHz machine for 4 years straight (and I'm not terribly gentle with it either), the only problem that has surfaced occurred in October of 2006 and that was the lower memory slot going bad which has effectively reduced me to just 512 MB. The machine still runs great, and if after 4 years of use that is the only thing to have gone bad then I think that it shows the overall high quality of the build. (I've just recently ordered the new MBP)

I don't believe that you would regret purchasing an Apple. Have fun, good luck.

Sopranino

[Jamiephofe]

Well yes, but when they receive no attention (like our Linux machines) then problems will develop.

Safari crashing on Apples website sounds weird though, could be a hardware issue or a reinstall could be in order.

Yup, could have been anything to be honest, I wasn't meaning to be anal about it. I'm sure a simple restart would have solved the problem. Firefox crashes way more on my PC. I just thought it was worth mentioning while on the topic of reliability.

- Jamie

[maverick808]

apples notebooks in general have superb design and quality for the prize. i compared them to the pc notebooks in our company (sony, ibm/lenovo, acer, dell).

they appear to be crappy for two reasons:

revision A problems. apple throws out core duos or LED screens or new case designs and of course there are initially problems that get widely reported. but usually after 3-4 month production gets better and the notebooks are fine.

apple users are anal. many things they complain about like yellow tinted LED screens, bent cases happen in other PC notebooks as well. people just accept it and do not complain. note that most complains of apple users are fully justified. however PC users seem to accept a lower standard.

my two cents derived from my experience in a company with ~200 people. generalizitions are of course always a bit arbitrary. but in general apples notebooks are great, sometimes they could be better.

I agree that Apple users are generally more anal (they are paying a higher price for their machines so that can often be excused). However, I use an awful lot of PC laptops too and I don't agree that they have more problems. I believe that Apple machines generally suffer more problems than Dell, HP, Sony or IBM laptops.

Furthermore, I find it unacceptable that everyone just knows that Apple's Rev A machines are going to be riddled with problems. No company should be firing out any machine, be it the first or 100th revision, without thorough testing. To compare, I've bought and used many Rev A Dells and never had problems with those. We should not put up with the fact that Apple's first revisions always suck, especially at the prices we pay for them.

Finally, I don't believe the problems are isolated to revision A machines. Look at the list of problems I gave earlier. They show widely acknowledged problems on Rev B, C and E machines. It doesn't matter what revision you buy, with Apple there's a high chance of problems regardless.

[Maxiseller]

Ugh, I hate the blinkered viewpoint you get on this forum. I love Macs, but I believe it is a fact that Apple have serious quality problems with their notebooks. Let's look at the list of defects that have been widely reported, and that I have seen on every single recent notebook revision.

1.67GHz PowerBook (Rev E I believe): Horizontal line issue on screen of all machines.

2GHz MacBook Pro (Rev A): Whine from motherboard, overheating, battery swelling, display flicker at low brightness settings. MagSafe power cables fraying and breaking. Noisy right fans.

1.83GHz MacBook: Top case discoloring, extreme overheating leading to widespread random shutdowns and even case fracturing. MagSafe power cables fraying and breaking. Noisy "moo-like" fan.

2.33GHz MacBook Pro (Rev B): Grainy displays, Apple used an extremely cheap display instead of a premium one.

2.4GHz MacBook Pro (Rev C): Cheap displays used again. Yellow tint at bottom of screen is widespread problem. Overheating seems to be a problem on these too. And again, flicker at low brightness settings returns on some machines.

In short, Apple's notebook releases since 2005 or earlier have generally suffered widespread problems due to abysmal quality control, cheap components and design flaws. Now, before someone replies saying "well mine is perfect!!!!!" please note that I am saying these issues are extremely widespread, but not on every single machine. It is possible to get the odd machine that doesn't have flaws. But you only have to look around these forums, Apple's own forums, and generally around the Web to see that the issues I have stated have indeed affected a massive number of Apple's notebook customers.

Please, I think Apple make superb software and DESIGN amazing machines. However, let's be honest, their quality control currently just plain sucks.

Ive got to agree here.

I mean, I'm not a great fan of all the moaning that goes on, but the sheer volume of issues of late does point to QC issues.

Function in Apples case does indeed come after Form which is not a precept which will produce excellent products in terms of QC issues, but I don't think I'd have it any other way.

For instance; my MBP. Love it, Love it, Love it! But...boy do I have to treat it gentle. It's like a high maintenance bad relationship; you love it, you love to look at it - heck sometimes you even want to lick it but you know that one tiny foot wrong and you're done for.

My tiny foot wrong was dropping a solitary small cash-box key on the top and now I have a scratch that drives me nuts. This wouldn't be a problem on a ugly Dell plastic machine (or admittedly on the macbooks) but I still wouldn't trade the looks of this thing!

[Henri Gaudier]

Ha ha ha. A very naive question to ask here.

Apple have made lots of stinkers. My worst experience was a G3 iBook. It just never ********* worked. After 11 months of hell they exchanged it for a G4 800 which was much better for 2 years and then it died. The cost of repair was more than the entry level iMac! 1500€ = 2 years. Brilliant.

I'm worried to hear all the problems with the latest laps as well. Including the SR's. Christ these things are too expensive to have these issues. I bought an Apple first and have stuck with it and so I can't say if anyone else is better. But Apple really aren't that great in their decisions of who makes their stuff. Remember Apple make bugger all they design it.

Hearing all these Rev A stories has put a dampener on the new iMac. I've been waiting for 6 months now and when it gets here it will probably be a 2.2Ghz pile of ****. 12 months wait for this one ... so will it be August 2008 for a Rev B worth buying?

[Sopranino]

I find it worrying when members post how amazingly perfect apple's notebooks (or computers in general) are.

I have lectures every day which are run using mac pro's and macbooks and they are far from reliable.

Even when I went into university last week to ask my tutor his opinion on the notebooks and he used his SR 17" macbook pro to access apples website, each time he clicked on the macbook pro section, his macbook pro froze. In the end we had to give up....

Reliable? Hardly. Better than a Dell running Vista? I'd say about the same, although it's worth mentioning that I have at least 1 class a week where a mac freezes several times. My university is also a digidesign protools and apple logic pro training facility, so we don't exactly have bad gear.

Please don't flame though, I'm actually spending £2000 on a notebook and logic this winter. :P

- Jamie

Which university are you at? I would love to talk to the prof with the MBP that freezes on a website click.....

Macs are used in pro audio applications precisely because they DON'T have a habit of freezing, let alone freezing several times in one class.

Sopranino

[Jamiephofe]

Which university are you at? I would love to talk to the prof with the MBP that freezes on a website click.....

Macs are used in pro audio applications precisely because they DON'T have a habit of freezing, let alone freezing several times in one class.

Sopranino

http://www.don.ac.uk/

http://www.don.ac.uk/mini_sites/arts/faculty_of_arts/music,_music_technology.aspx

Lee Sullivan


I'm sure he'll be very surprised to hear from you. :)

If you mention the meeting I told you about, I'm sure he will remember. It was only last week.

By the way, I'm the guy on the "Harvey Theatre" picture staring at a monitor, or possibly sleeping standing up.

- Jamie

[Sopranino]

....apple users are anal. many things they complain about like yellow tinted LED screens, bent cases happen in other PC notebooks as well. people just accept it and do not complain. note that most complains of apple users are fully justified. however PC users seem to accept a lower standard. ....

Very insightful comment. I don't think that I would have thought of it quite like that but I think you've pretty much nailed it on the head...... anal ........ *chuckle*

Sopranino

[Phil A.]

We've got 2 Rev. A MBPs (15") and a Rev A BlackBook. Not had a single problem with any of them.

[iW00t]

http://www.don.ac.uk/

http://www.don.ac.uk/mini_sites/arts/faculty_of_arts/music,_music_technology.aspx

Lee Sullivan


I'm sure he'll be very surprised to hear from you. :)

If you mention the meeting I told you about, I'm sure he will remember. It was only last week.

By the way, I'm the guy on the "Harvey Theatre" picture staring at a monitor, or possibly sleeping standing up.

- Jamie



Which university are you at? I would love to talk to the prof with the MBP that freezes on a website click.....

Macs are used in pro audio applications precisely because they DON'T have a habit of freezing, let alone freezing several times in one class.

Sopranino

What are you going to say to him?

[Jamiephofe]

Which university are you at? I would love to talk to the prof with the MBP that freezes on a website click.....

Macs are used in pro audio applications precisely because they DON'T have a habit of freezing, let alone freezing several times in one class.

Sopranino

It may be worth mentioning logic pro + synthesis and sampling classes. That's if you consider Logic Pro and ESX24 Pro Audio applications.

- Jamie

[Sopranino]

What are you going to say to him?

Part of the problem with getting a second hand report on an issue or having the problem reported by somebody who may not understand what was occurring is that it can lead to information getting skewed. With that in mind I would like to find out from him exactly what he was doing when trying to access the site, what other apps he had loaded at the time, what exactly occurred just prior to the 'freeze'. Has he experienced this problem with other sites and has the problem reoccurred since.

Should be interesting, I'll post back the results of any correspondence.

Sopranino

[elithrar]

If you're posting on a Mac forum you're generally going to see a large amount of complaints about Apple products. Personally, as I've said in a few threads, my 15", 2.4Ghz SR MBP is literally perfect.

[Sopranino]

It may be worth mentioning logic pro + synthesis and sampling classes. That's if you consider Logic Pro and ESX24 Pro Audio applications.

- Jamie

Well to be totally honest I don't consider Logic Pro to be an industry standard DAW (that honor belongs to ProTools). I personally use Motu's Digital Performer for recording and processing classical music recitals.

Are you studying sound engineering?

Sopranino

[Jamiephofe]

Part of the problem with getting a second hand report on an issue or having the problem reported by somebody who may not understand what was occurring is that it can lead to information getting skewed. With that in mind I would like to find out from him exactly what he was doing when trying to access the site, what other apps he had loaded at the time, what exactly occurred just prior to the 'freeze'. Has he experienced this problem with other sites and has the problem reoccurred since.

Should be interesting, I'll post back the results of any correspondence.

Sopranino

I would like to point out 2 things if I may.

First, Lee is a tutor at a University, it may be possible that he will not reply in the helpful manner that you are asking the questions. He simply doesn't have the time.

Second, be aware this is an Apple certified training centre. This basically means the staff act the same as Apple fans in denial. When we have issues the tutor simply says "er...hm....how did this happen, I don't understand."

With those 2 points in mind, I hope you get the information you are looking for. I would also like to know why this happened, but if I went into detail with him about it, he would have told me he doesn't have the time.

- Jamie

[Jamiephofe]

Well to be totally honest I don't consider Logic Pro to be an industry standard DAW (that honor belongs to ProTools). I personally use Motu's Digital Performer for recording and processing classical music recitals.

Are you studying sound engineering?

Sopranino

I use Logic Pro and Pro Tools together for my studies.

To be honest I prefer Pro Tools for my work, that's why I have a Pro Tools setup at home on a PC.

The only reason I'm buying the macbook pro is for logic. I also used DP and I also prefer it to Logic.

- Jamie

[PDE]

Ive got to agree here.

I mean, I'm not a great fan of all the moaning that goes on, but the sheer volume of issues of late does point to QC issues.

Function in Apples case does indeed come after Form which is not a precept which will produce excellent products in terms of QC issues, but I don't think I'd have it any other way.

For instance; my MBP. Love it, Love it, Love it! But...boy do I have to treat it gentle. It's like a high maintenance bad relationship; you love it, you love to look at it - heck sometimes you even want to lick it but you know that one tiny foot wrong and you're done for.

My tiny foot wrong was dropping a solitary small cash-box key on the top and now I have a scratch that drives me nuts. This wouldn't be a problem on a ugly Dell plastic machine (or admittedly on the macbooks) but I still wouldn't trade the looks of this thing!

I agree too. To those who have old powerbook G4s - that doesn't count! Apple's qualty control has gone downhill for years, but it seems to have accelerated since the end of 2005 with the last generation of powerbooks. My old powerbooks were generally great, but it's not like they didn't have issues too. I had a rev A titanium powerbook G4 and it was replaced several times (in those days Apple didn't seem to ever replace anything so I was lucky) for various issues - like flickering screen, no audio out. The wallstreet powerbook G3 had a few issues too when it first was introduced, like overheating, thin rubber that would peel off, a graphics glitch, poorly design hinges etc. And then the powerbook G4s with white spots all over the display -

Apple has always been lousy at quality control, but these last few years seem have been particularly bad both for macbooks and macbook pros. What do we mean by quality? Materals? Components? Reliability? I think Apple computers are VERY reliable in terms of general functioning. You seldom hear of people whose machines completely stopped working! But everything else I think is pretty poor: keyboards that stop working properly, keys that break off, macbook plastics that spontaneously crack, defect inverters that cause screen flickering, MBP bulging/warping aluminum, displays that are grainy with poor viewing angles and unevcen illumination, macbook plastics that scratch the minute you look at them - I mean, the list of stuff goes on and on. Luckily, even with these problems the computers continue to work! it's more an issue of Apple not living up to its own design/quality goals, but continuing to charge the customer a premium for a quality that only really exists in teh minds of their design team.

Maybe Apple's design ambitions cannot be properly realised in the consumer market of today? It would just be too expensive.

[BlackMax]

So is this defect rate normal for the current Macbooks lineup or is it still higher than other manufacturers?

If you look at the customer satisfaction ratings published in PC Magazine or several other computer publications you will see that Apple notebooks are consistently rated very high in quality and customer satisfaction.

For example, PC Magazine's August 2006 Reader's Choice Notebook Survey (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2006499,00.asp) which has Apple at the top of the pack.

Apple is at the top. Its overall score, 9.1, is significantly better than the average for Windows notebooks—and a full seven-tenths of a point better than Lenovo's overall score, 8.4. Its scores for reliability (9.2), tech support (8.5), and likelihood of recommending (9.4) are also significantly better than average. Yes, its score on percentage needing repair is merely average, but at 16 percent, it's the lowest of the survey (alongside Sony's 16 percent).

Is this a function of that unique passion Apple users have for the company's products? Perhaps. But, again, it's hard to question the number of units needing repair. Among first-year systems, only 7 percent needed repair—2 points better than Sony.

Lenovo's notebook scores nearly match Apple's. Manufacturer of the popular IBM ThinkPad computers as well as a new line under its own brand name, Lenovo garners an overall score of 8.4—significantly better than average, as are its scores for reliability (8.6), tech support (7.8), repair (7.6), and likelihood of recommending (8.3).

Over the past ten years between home and work I have owned Apple, IBM, Dell and HP notebooks. My experience mirrors those of PC Magazine's survey with my Apple and IBM notebooks being the best machines I have owned.

As others have noted, all notebooks can have problems and folks who encounter problems with their notebooks are usually more vocal than those who encounter no problems. Just be sure you have a good warranty for whatever you choose to purchase and you'll have piece of mind.

[odaiwai]

Believe me, it happened. My tutor tried accessing the macbook pro area of the website 3 times and it froze all 3 times. Obviously he could do the apple equivalent of ctrl + alt + del to fix it, but it shouldn't happen in the first place.

True, we didn't spend the time restarting the machine, but for that price should we have to?

- Jamie

There is a pretty substantial difference between Safari freezing and the entire machine freezing. I've had occasions when Firefox will randomly crash, but it seems to sort itself out after a while and not do it again. Maybe after a reboot, not sure, as I rebooted once or twice during my trip below.

I've had a new MacBook which went from the Box to a five week work trip around Queensland. Apart from some hassle with Firefox (which required just using Safari to workaround), it's been incredibly reliable and really robust. I would have half a dozen documents open in Word/Excel and just close the lid and travel to the next location. I never lost a single document.

Just about the only issues I really had were the seething jealousy of my colleagues at the size of the power brick, the fact that it would reliably sleep and wake up on a lid close, and the silence of it. (Once an office fell deeply silent. I thought the aircon had turned off, but it was just my colleague turning off his HP Laptop.)

[Jamiephofe]

There is a pretty substantial difference between Safari freezing and the entire machine freezing. I've had occasions when Firefox will randomly crash, but it seems to sort itself out after a while and not do it again. Maybe after a reboot, not sure, as I rebooted once or twice during my trip below.

I've had a new MacBook which went from the Box to a five week work trip around Queensland. Apart from some hassle with Firefox (which required just using Safari to workaround), it's been incredibly reliable and really robust. I would have half a dozen documents open in Word/Excel and just close the lid and travel to the next location. I never lost a single document.

Just about the only issues I really had were the seething jealousy of my colleagues at the size of the power brick, the fact that it would reliably sleep and wake up on a lid close, and the silence of it. (Once an office fell deeply silent. I thought the aircon had turned off, but it was just my colleague turning off his HP Laptop.)

The only thing I'm genuinely worried about is the QC of the screens, but I think I've ranted enough in this thread :D

- Jamie

[Sbrocket]

Believe me, it happened. My tutor tried accessing the macbook pro area of the website 3 times and it froze all 3 times. Obviously he could do the apple equivalent of ctrl + alt + del to fix it, but it shouldn't happen in the first place.

True, we didn't spend the time restarting the machine, but for that price should we have to?

- Jamie

I dunno, that sounds awfully like user error to me. It could be any number of things like something the computer owner interfering third-party software that destabilized WebKit or some other component. There wasn't some widespread Safari bug that caused everyone's machine to crash when they visited websites, so obviously it was specific to that machine's setup. Yeah, that just screams user error and you can't blame Apple for not making a mistake-proof (or idiot-proof) operating system.

[Taylor C]

As said before, the original Core Duo models were quite buggy, but the newer one's are very well built.

[Foxglove9]

Apple's are generally higher quality I notice. Just from experience over the last 5 years, other than a hard drive dying out over time all my friends ibooks and powerbooks have lasted years with no problems.

My PC laptop friends are always experiencing troubles. For example: 2 coworkers of mine bought 2 pc laptops in the last year. They had to return both of them in the first month because of hardware issues. Just about everyone else has major issues with their PC laptops in their first year of ownership (mostly due to software issues).

[CRAZYBUBBA]

I just had this discussion.

In my experience, Performa, iMac G3, Powerbook G4 its been excellent.

[jklps]

The impression I get is that in terms of quality it goes like this:

$400 eMachines/ACER < Dell Inspiration/HP Mid Range < Apple < Thinkpad/Dell Latitude/Other Business Laptop.

So Apple's quality is pretty good, and excellent for a consumer machine, but if you are prepared to spend enough you can get better quality hardware elsewhere.

Dell Latitude's are hit or miss...

[anirban]

......
2.4GHz MacBook Pro (Rev C): Cheap displays used again. Yellow tint at bottom of screen is widespread problem. Overheating seems to be a problem on these too. And again, flicker at low brightness settings returns on some machines.
.....

I have a 2.4GHz MBP, and it has been the most flawless thing I have ever owned.

I have no complaints, and based on this machine, I will say that Apple Inc. makes great machines, and does have an industry standard QC. Ofcourse there are bound to be some duds in the production line which will slip through, and Apple gladly replaces them.

[dingdongbubble]

I didnt expect so many replies to this question. We have two sides to the argument, one saying that Apple's quality is excellent and the other the opposite.

What I want to know in the end is that is the expected defect rate normal or lower than other manufacturers. Is the defect rate so high that when considering an Apple, the defects might be a minor possible con? Or is the defect rate normal so that if you get a defected Apple, then you are just considered unlucky?

[drumforfun19]

You'll hear more from people who have problems than those who have no problems. This gives a false impression of the quality of the products.
It's a small percentage of products that have problems.

EXACTLY. My MBP is rock solid. I have yet to have ANY problem with it.

[Henri Gaudier]

I have a 2.4GHz MBP, and it has been the most flawless thing I have ever owned.


And how old is it?;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bartelby
You'll hear more from people who have problems than those who have no problems. This gives a false impression of the quality of the products.
It's a small percentage of products that have problems.

This still doesn't disprove that it's a significant minority who have problems and therefore there is a serious problem. I've had multiple problems with every machine I've had (Around 8) and they were all new. I've had dozens of synths from Roland, Korg, Akai that have never gone wrong. My Akai S900 is 20 years old same drive ,floppy, LCD. And I've others, 25 years plus and still faultless. And they were cutting edge in their day and they got it right.

[haiggy]

2.4GHz MacBook Pro (Rev C): Cheap displays used again. Yellow tint at bottom of screen is widespread problem. Overheating seems to be a problem on these too. And again, flicker at low brightness settings returns on some machines.


Maybe I'm just lucky, but my machine is perfect. I know everybody has their own opinions but this display is far from yellow at the bottom and doesn't get very hot at all unless I am playing a game and the GPU heats up. Case is perfect, MagSafe has yet to fray and blow up. Wireless is 100x better than it was on my iBook G4. I love this machine - it's worth every penny. I'd say Apple's quality control is great, just most people voice their opinions when they are unhappy. In the end it all comes down to being unlucky if you happen to get a machine that is a lemon or doesn't fuction properly (and of course you can return it and get a new one).

I'm not exactly sure but I thought a while ago MR posted some stats on quality control from most competitors and Apple ranked either first or second (next to IBM).... can somebody back this up?

[flopticalcube]

I didnt expect so many replies to this question. We have two sides to the argument, one saying that Apple's quality is excellent and the other the opposite.

What I want to know in the end is that is the expected defect rate normal or lower than other manufacturers. Is the defect rate so high that when considering an Apple, the defects might be a minor possible con? Or is the defect rate normal so that if you get a defected Apple, then you are just considered unlucky?

I recall a survey that said that while Apple desktops had overall very low defect rates, Apple laptops where "unremarkable", i.e. about average. The real question is not if you will get a problem but how it is handled when you do.

[Ibjr]

Yes. They have problems that Apple refuses to acknowledge. I have a reproducible sound that can be captured by iMovie (if i record from my isight) and Applecare's 1-800 line told me to take it to the closest Applestore (4 hours away). Interestingly, this was a replacement for a faulty Ibook

My father's macbook has had two replacements (c2d) after three repair tries each.

I love Apple but their QC sucks right now.

[BlackMax]

I didnt expect so many replies to this question. We have two sides to the argument, one saying that Apple's quality is excellent and the other the opposite.

What I want to know in the end is that is the expected defect rate normal or lower than other manufacturers. Is the defect rate so high that when considering an Apple, the defects might be a minor possible con? Or is the defect rate normal so that if you get a defected Apple, then you are just considered unlucky?

As mentioned above, look at the publicly published customer satisfaction and failure rates for Apple and other notebook manufacturers and you will see that Apple notebooks are better than most (or the highest rated) as it pertains to failure rates and always rated very highly for customer satisfaction.

[PDE]

Yes. They have problems that Apple refuses to acknowledge. I have a reproducible sound that can be captured by iMovie (if i record from my isight) and Applecare's 1-800 line told me to take it to the closest Applestore (4 hours away). Interestingly, this was a replacement for a faulty Ibook

My father's macbook has had two replacements (c2d) after three repair tries each.

I love Apple but their QC sucks right now.

Yes, absolutely agreed. Apple makes potentially the greatest computers, but their potential is frequently let down by their implementation, assembly and component choices.

[dingdongbubble]

Can someone help me get to a conclusion?:confused:

[opticalserenity]

Having worked at one of the top 3 electronics big box stores as a manager, I can tell you that we carried IBM/Lenovo, Sony, HP, Toshiba, etc etc, and they have a ton of problems. I would sign off on many of those higher end ($2500-$3500) laptops to be returned to vendor or what not every day.

I have more faith in Apple products than those other brands. And besides, its a moot point. Those other products cannot legally run OS X.

[aquajet]

Can someone help me get to a conclusion?:confused:

Have you read the thread? There is this (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2006499,00.asp). Consumer Reports have also rated Apple at or near the top. Does that sound like a company with generally low quality products?

[dingdongbubble]

Maybe I should put up a poll.

[xpovos]

Yes, absolutely agreed. Apple makes potentially the greatest computers, but their potential is frequently let down by their implementation, assembly and component choices.

I think this hits the nail right on the head.

I also think it's important, when discussing quality control, to distinguish between actual "quality control" issues (defects) and just "quality" issues (general sources of dissatisfaction). For example, the grainy screen on many 15" C2D MBPs (like the one I have) has always been a source of dissatisfaction for me, giving me a perception of lower-than-expected quality---but it's not a quality control issue per se. Rather, it's a bad component choice on Apple's part. That doesn't mean I'm any less dissatisfied by the poor quality of the display or that I excuse Apple for its poor choice, just that I acknowledge it for what it is.

I think most quality-related complaints on this and any other forum are predominantly quality issues rather than quality control issues.

Between myself and various family members combined, we've purchased 11 Macs in the last 12 months, nine of which are notebooks. If we were to restrict our estimate to the number of actual quality control issues encountered, the defect rate would be about 27%. On the other hand, if we include all other issues leading to dissatisfaction or a perception of lower-than-expected quality, the "failure" rate goes to about 64%.

Both numbers are probably unacceptably high (for the price)---and I, in particular among my family members, am way too anal about this stuff---but I think it's an important distinction.

[dpaanlka]

Maybe I should put up a poll.

We have a poll. Here it is. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=318588) There are also like sixty million threads about this same thing recently.

You're "hearing" about problems because thats what people talk about. Nobody talks about how their computers work exactly as expected. Except for at linked poll.

[Pandayo]

here check out this old consumer report:



http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/laptops-are-built-like-crap-210853.php

excerpt:

"Everyone's products suck. Great. But at least it's good to know that the companies with the best reputations rose to the top, even if it's only by a margin of 1% in some cases. I guess we recommend buying that overpriced extended warranty after all"


I'm still getting my first mac soon though :)

[aquajet]

This still doesn't disprove that it's a significant minority who have problems and therefore there is a serious problem.

Not that the handful of anecdotal evidence around here is proof of serious QC problems to begin with. :rolleyes:

Good grief, people. Get more critical eyes.

[icecone]

Have you read the thread? There is this (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2006499,00.asp). Consumer Reports have also rated Apple at or near the top. Does that sound like a company with generally low quality products?

Not really. This survey counts not only reliability. Apple definitely wins in other criteria. Also, I think apple fans give higher marks to mac than it deserves:(

[aristobrat]

PC Magazine's last owner satisfaction survey last rated several notebook/desktop manufacturers, including Apple:
Once again, Apple is at the top. Its overall score, 9.1, is significantly better than the average for Windows notebooks—and a full seven-tenths of a point better than Lenovo's overall score, 8.4. Its scores for reliability (9.2), tech support (8.5), and likelihood of recommending (9.4) are also significantly better than average. Yes, its score on percentage needing repair is merely average, but at 16 percent, it's the lowest of the survey (alongside Sony's 16 percent).
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2006499,00.asp

[anirban]

And how old is it?;)



About a week- I agree this may not be long enough to establish a consensus of how the quality of the product is, but so far, it has been exceeding my expectations. :)

[Alloye]

apple users are anal. many things they complain about like yellow tinted LED screens, bent cases happen in other PC notebooks as well. people just accept it and do not complain. note that most complains of apple users are fully justified. however PC users seem to accept a lower standard.

I'll second that. My company just bought some Dells that I think are abysmal, but our sales team loves 'em. They don't even notice the squeaky hinges, mushy keyboards, or cheap displays.

On the other hand, the average Dell does cost a lot less than a MBP, so...

[Ibjr]

Have you read the thread? There is this (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2006499,00.asp). Consumer Reports have also rated Apple at or near the top. Does that sound like a company with generally low quality products?

That is satisfaction not reliability. Don't knock us for our logic skills, you are in a glass house throwing stones.

Mac reliability is awful right now but I am stuck using the HW to get the SW. I will say when a computer breaks i'd rather deal with Applecare than Dell's support but a mac shouldn't have all these issues in the first place.

[aristobrat]

I'll second that. My company just bought some Dells that I think are abysmal, but our sales team loves 'em. They don't even notice the squeaky hinges, mushy keyboards, or cheap displays.

On the other hand, the average Dell does cost a lot less than a MBP, so...

I think many Apple users have a more "emotional" connection to their Apple product than many PC users do.

Things that wouldn't bother them on a Dell notebook would simply unacceptable to them on their Apple notebook.

[aristobrat]

That is satisfaction not reliability. Don't knock us for our logic skills, you are in a glass house throwing stones.
So if your Mac is unreliable, exactly how high are you going to rate your overall satisfaction?

Satisfaction and reliability go hand-in-hand.

[icecone]

I'll second that. My company just bought some Dells that I think are abysmal, but our sales team loves 'em. They don't even notice the squeaky hinges, mushy keyboards, or cheap displays.

On the other hand, the average Dell does cost a lot less than a MBP, so...

Dell isn't a lot cheaper, but using cheap stuff isn't what we are worrying about, the QC is the problem. The displays are cheap, but they still work, no yellowing/flickering....

[aquajet]

That is satisfaction not reliability. Don't knock us for our logic skills, you are in a glass house throwing stones.

The question was: is it generally low quality? People wouldn't be satisfied if the the products were of general low quality.

[Ibjr]

No.

When my ibook first had trouble I thought it was a fluke, they took my machine and fixed it and had it back to me in two days. Why wouldn't I rate my satisfaction as high? The speed of Applecare makes a lot of people very happy.

Then I worked at an ad agency and found the same problem with most of the deployed G4 laptops. Now that i know my logic board issue wasn't uncommon, I am happy they fixed it (even if i needed a replacement each subsequent year) but not as happy with Apple.

So if your Mac is unreliable, exactly how high are you going to rate your overall satisfaction?

Satisfaction and reliability go hand-in-hand.

[PDE]

Not that the handful of anecdotal evidence around here is proof of serious QC problems to begin with. :rolleyes:

Good grief, people. Get more critical eyes.

My ten defective macbook pros last year and my two defective SR macbook pros (plus a repair that is now resulting in a replacement -the third unit in two weeks!) tells me that Apple has some pretty serious quality problems. They were purchased at different times from different sources so it wasn't just a bad batch. Statistically, what are the chances of me having all those problems over time and place unless there were more widespread issues?

Of course, some of the issues are just poor component choices, such as the displays with grain and uneven illumination. But, there are a lot of people out there who have had issues out of the box. The 17% repair rate in the first year is really not great, even if it may be industry standard. MY personal defect rate last year was nearly 100% in that out of the box none of the units I got was defect-free. I'm sure a lot of people can't be bothered to get things fixed, or they can't afford to be without their computers while they're in repair.

Anyway, it's neither here nor there. It's where we are now in terms of quality in the computer industry. At least Apple tries to make nice products!

[Ibjr]

The question was: is it generally low quality? People wouldn't be satisfied if the the products were of general low quality.

The three macbooks (C2D bought in Nov, Jan, and June) all have a high pitched whine where the macsafe plugs in. My friend who works for IBM-ISS has a thinkpad assigned to him (he uses a macbook at home) with similar specs but no whine. After talking to engineer we've come to accept it is a cheap capacitor. Apple stores claim it is within spec, i have to play music or run photobooth just to drown out or quiet the sound.

[Gav]

It looks bad in the eyes of the press.

If you were an editor of a site or a magazine, would you write about perfect working Macbooks, or ones that blow up and melt?

[Ibjr]

It looks bad in the eyes of the press.

If you were an editor of a site or a magazine, would you write about perfect working Macbooks, or ones that blow up and melt?

If you were an editor of a site or a magazine, would you write about perfect working Windows XP, or ones that blue screens and dies?

Oh, you counter, you've seen it blue screen.

Well a bunch of us on MR, many who have been here for years, are complaining about QC that has gone to hell. We've received lemons to replace lemons and are getting really tired of it.

[66217]

Well a bunch of us on MR, many who have been here for years, are complaining about QC that has gone to hell. We've received lemons to replace lemons and are getting really tired of it.

And a much bigger bunch of Mac owners have no problems. MacRumors is not a good way to judge the QC of Apple, since most users come here because of problems, not because they have a perfect Mac.

[Ibjr]

And a much bigger bunch of Mac owners have no problems. MacRumors is not a good way to judge the QC of Apple, since most users come here because of problems, not because they have a perfect Mac.

Again, that is unsupported logic. I've already conceded that these posts about issues will always be over-represented on forums but it doesn't follow that most users don't post here because they have perfects macs. For your argument to be true you'd need the premise that all mac users know to complain on Mac Rumors when they have a problem. That premise can't be reasonably assumed.

Many of you are basing your experience on your own personal computers, many of the complainers are basing it on what they have seen with schools and businesses. I thought all my problems were a fluke until I talked to friends who ran majority mac ad/pr agencies.

[Smoothie]

I just bought a new 2.4 GHz 15 inch SR MBP after waiting in the wings for over a year. I've owned one Dell and two ThinkPad notebooks. My most recent ThinkPad is the X60, which I absolutely love. I use it for traveling since it's so small and light. None of my machines have had any hardware-related issues. My older ThinkPad is still working after five years. The ThinkPads are very solidly built, have great keyboards, and the X60 has a very bright and uniformly lit screen. And I've found Windows XP to be a solid OS, despite all of the usual jokes.

I've wanted a Mac for a long time, and I was really excited when the MBPs were introduced. But all of the problem posts about the earlier versions kept me away. I understand how forums can magnify problems, but the sheer number of complaints on the Apple forums was a big concern to me. Anyway, I decided to take a chance with the new LED backlight version. I've only had it for a couple of days, but so far so good. No crashes, it passed the hardware test, the screen doesn't appear yellow (a Toshiba LCD), it doesn't make any weird noises, it idles at about 48 to 50 degrees (10 degrees more than my X60 with a 2.0 GHz chip), and I'm having fun learning a new OS. I've had a few incidents with AirPort occasionally not associating with my router, but I'll try to solve that.

If I had to pick between my ThinkPad and my MBP, at this point I'd pick the ThinkPad. But I think the MBP will grow on me as I get more used to it and the Mac OS.

[Ibjr]

If I had to pick between my ThinkPad and my MBP, at this point I'd pick the ThinkPad. But I think the MBP will grow on me as I get more used to it and the Mac OS.

Welcome to the other side and it will grow on you. Do get Applcare, I bitch a lot about Apple but it is a fantastic deal. I'm glad you didn't get a lemon.

[aquajet]

My ten defective macbook pros last year and my two defective SR macbook pros...

That's unfortunate and I feel for you. I've had problems with my rev. A MBP, purchased refurbished. Thankfully, Apple has fixed the problems and the computer has been working flawlessly now for several months, aside from the battery issues which have been corrected since Apple released Battery Update. I am curious to see a breakdown of all the issues you've experienced with all your machines.

[katorga]

The Apple hardware I've used in generally in the top 10&#37; in terms of quality. It is an order of magnitude better than the multitude of Dell's and IBMs I've used at work. Apple laptop LCD's always seem to be a cut above the others with the closest competitor being Sony.

I'd say the top 10% consists of Apple, Asus (premium models only), and Lenovo (falling fast).

Remember that all computer vendors are basically using the same parts made by the same few companies. Laptops are generally made by the same OEM manufacturers for everyone. The only difference is really how tight the quality tolerances written into the contracts/SLA's are.

[Ibjr]

The Apple hardware I've used in generally in the top 10% in terms of quality. It is an order of magnitude better than the multitude of Dell's and IBMs I've used at work. Apple laptop LCD's always seem to be a cut above the others with the closest competitor being Sony.

I'd say the top 10% consists of Apple, Asus (premium models only), and Lenovo (falling fast).

Interesting, I haven't seen a decline in Lenovo. I thought they would (esp after they called and said they'd offer the same great products as IBM but for much less!) but Asus has been terrible. I do agree that Apple screens are usually top notch. I don't know about Asus.

[zioxide]

According to consumer reports, Apple notebooks are the best in the industry. So the few issues they have is a lot less than other manufacturers like Dell.

[Ibjr]

According to consumer reports, Apple notebooks are the best in the industry. So the few issues they have is a lot less than other manufacturers like Dell.

That was from 2002 to mid-2006. The complainers (myself included) contend that with the switch to intel and explosive growth Apple's QC has been unable to keep up. The study is useless to refute our points unless it had a specific breakdown of how many problems Apple had at the tail end of the study.

[Smoothie]

I'd say the top 10% consists of Apple, Asus (premium models only), and Lenovo (falling fast).



My Lenovo X60 ThinkPad is as well-built as my IBM T23 ThinkPad, and the keyboard and screen on the X60 are even better. I don't think that Lenovo's purchase of the business from IBM has resulted in lower quality. Apple does deserve credit for what appears to be responsive service -- at least from what I can see reading this forum.

[Smoothie]

Welcome to the other side and it will grow on you. Do get Applcare, I bitch a lot about Apple but it is a fantastic deal. I'm glad you didn't get a lemon.

Thanks! I'm going to get AppleCare. I just wanted to see if this new MBP was a keeper.

[luminosity]

I've been very pleased with my 2.33 C2D MBP. No heat issues at all, very reliable, etc. etc.