Macworld NY Rumors

[MacRumors]

Infoworld (http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/07/10/hnApplerumors_1.html) writes an article regarding the rumors surrounding "Macworld NY". They reference this site as well as Spymac.com (http://www.spymac.com).

The focus of the article, however, appears to be the Xserve and does contain some new information. One anonymous reseller reports that Xserve sales halted after the PowerMac G5 was announced.

The article also confirms previous rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030626231908.shtml) of deep discounts for developers on Xserves, hinting that Apple is trying to clear the channel.

The only rumors available have been relatively unconfirmed rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/07/20030701045553.shtml) regarding Xserve updates by September. One additional anonymous report that came in provides similar information with claims that there will be no Mac OS X 10.2.7 Server version... and instead the new G5 Xserve's will require Panther Server. According to these rumblings, Panther Server is expected shortly after Panther Client.

[ZildjianKX]

No new PB news? :(

[AtariST]

Nice being mentioned, but I don't remember us publishing anything about PowerBooks at NY. :)

[arn]

Originally posted by AtariST
Nice being mentioned, but I don't remember us publishing anything about PowerBooks at NY. :)

heh... it's funny what they pick out to reference. :)

arn

[jbomber]

Originally posted by arn
heh... it's funny what they pick out to reference. :)

arn

what are your thoughts arn? 15" powerbooks on wednesday or just a room full of disappointed boys and girls?

[fred]

I'd still like to know if Panther is going to be a 64 bit operating system ..... MacWorld recently posted a story to the effect it wasn't going to be 64 bit..... but nobody else seems to care

[fred]

I'd still like to know if Panther is going to be a 64 bit operating system ..... MacWorld recently posted a story to the effect it wasn't going to be 64 bit..... but nobody else seems to care

[jbomber]

no one's really concerned because there are no 64bit apps yet.

(shrug)

theres still a lot of time before it becomes an actual issue.

[tgrundke]

I find the report that XServe sales have all but stopped to be interesting. My greater concern is how the G5 announcement will impact other Apple sales, specifically iMacs and eMacs.

I think Apple finds itself in a precarious situation at the moment because the speed gap is so wide at the moment between Macintoshes and their Wintel counterparts. Anyone with half a brain knows that with a little bit of time, the G5 will make its way into all of Apple's products - and if demand slackens much for iMacs and such, we'll find the G5 in there sooner rather than later.

With that in mind, unless someone absolutely, positively *must* have a new computer, they're going to wait until the entire product line moves to the G5. I sure as hell know that I will.

[vniow]

Originally posted by fred
I'd still like to know if Panther is going to be a 64 bit operating system ..... MacWorld recently posted a story to the effect it wasn't going to be 64 bit..... but nobody else seems to care

The Register cares. (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31600.html)

[fred]

Originally posted by vniow
The Register cares. (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31600.html)


Thanks ....that's a valuable article....just curious as to why Apple downplayed the issue so much and it seems to have floated below the radar of the multitude of Apple news and rumor sites

[mymemory]

I just placed a post around here... where is it?:(

[ColdZero]

How can it be 64-bit and run on a G4 or G3? It can't. Panther will be a 32-bit OS with code to allow calls to 64 bit addressing and stuff. It better be 32 bit otherwise Apple isn't going to be able to honor the OS Maintanaince agreement for the Xserve at work.

[Bear]

Originally posted by ColdZero
How can it be 64-bit and run on a G4 or G3? It can't. Panther will be a 32-bit OS with code to allow calls to 64 bit addressing and stuff. It better be 32 bit otherwise Apple isn't going to be able to honor the OS Maintanaince agreement for the Xserve at work.
What general happens when an OS runs on both 32 and 64 bit processors is that there are different versions of the binaries that need to be different.

Boot code, memory management and interupts are the major subsystems with differences.

The OS can be 64 bit capable, yet run on a 32 bit processor. You just get different binaries for a few bits.

[pyrotoaster]

Sure, the Xserve is all nice and stackable, but we want the freakin' Powerbook updates!
Then again, the you can stack Powerbooks, too...

Edit: I just actually read the article, and these people think Steve Jobs is delivering a keynote. They also mis-capitalize Xserve over and over again.

[jbomber]

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
Sure, the Xserve is all nice and stackable, but we want the freakin' Powerbook updates!
Then again, the you can stack Powerbooks, too...

Hehehe. I just want one...

WHY CAN'T I HAVE JUST ONE!

WHY GOD, WHY!?!

[sacrilicious]

I've been pulled into this site and this forum just because I'm so anxious for the PowerBook to be updated. WHERE IS IT? :confused:

[newworldempire]

I'd like to see something on a competative level to IBM's own blade servers, but I can't imagine getting the new pmac's down to 1u without reducing the tempature down to absolute zero -_-'
On a humorous note, the Blade servers are the only thing my PC using friend ever tries to compare to the new powermac's. Too bad they are in separate markets.

[wizard]

The issue with panther is to be expected to a certain extent. People are looking at this as an applications issue, its not the PPC should be able to support 32 bit and 64 bit applications at the same time. It appears that they just hacked panther enough to permit booting of tthe 970. The reality is that Apple really needs to be a little more forth coming as to what is really happening here.

I'm still wondering if Panther is a bridge implementation. That is will it allow the use of the extended addressing capabilities of the G4 in a way that is also compatable with the G5. A G4 powerbook capable of handling large memory systems would be nice. That is until a good implementation of the 970 in a portable can be offered.

Honestly apple isn't doing themselves any favors with this slow trickel of information. Hopefully they can open the flood gates next week.

Dave


Originally posted by Macrumors
Infoworld (http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/07/10/hnApplerumors_1.html) writes an article regarding the rumors surrounding "Macworld NY". They reference this site as well as Spymac.com (http://www.spymac.com).

The focus of the article, however, appears to be the Xserve and does contain some new information. One anonymous reseller reports that Xserve sales halted after the PowerMac G5 was announced.

The article also confirms previous rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030626231908.shtml) of deep discounts for developers on Xserves, hinting that Apple is trying to clear the channel.

The only rumors available have been relatively unconfirmed rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/07/20030701045553.shtml) regarding Xserve updates by September. One additional anonymous report that came in provides similar information with claims that there will be no Mac OS X 10.2.7 Server version... and instead the new G5 Xserve's will require Panther Server. According to these rumblings, Panther Server is expected shortly after Panther Client.

[Docrjm]

Want a new PB. 12" too small 17" too big. Why oh why no new 15".
Hopefully mwNY or whatever its called now will improve on the goods. I am holding out until sig new tech is there. I don't want to be obsolete tomorrow:p

[pilotgi]

No Steve = no PowerBook.

Maybe the following week. They're bound to be upgraded soon.

[Dragonneyes]

Originally posted by pilotgi
No Steve = no PowerBook.


In the middle of Joswiak's keynote, a suspiciously large quintuple-deckered cake is wheeled out on stage. A trumpet fanfare plays, and...

Out jumps Steveo, amidst much falling confetti and balloons, holding a brand new 15" AlBook!

Whoohoo! Dreams can come true.

[Mudbug]

Originally posted by Dragonneyes
In the middle of Joswiak's keynote, a suspiciously large quintuple-deckered cake is wheeled out on stage. A trumpet fanfare plays, and...

Out jumps Steveo, amidst much falling confetti and balloons, holding a brand new 15" AlBook!

Whoohoo! Dreams can come true.

And this is all fun and games unless Steveo is wearing a thong. Then all bets are off.

Seriously, I think that Joswiak has just as much reason to intro the new 15" pBook as Jobs - he is the head Hardware guy, and this is hardware, and a hardware UPDATE at that... Steve already had his fun with the 12 & 17" models.

[jamilecrire]

Originally posted by tgrundke
I find the report that XServe sales have all but stopped to be interesting. My greater concern is how the G5 announcement will impact other Apple sales, specifically iMacs and eMacs.

I think Apple finds itself in a precarious situation at the moment because the speed gap is so wide at the moment between Macintoshes and their Wintel counterparts. Anyone with half a brain knows that with a little bit of time, the G5 will make its way into all of Apple's products - and if demand slackens much for iMacs and such, we'll find the G5 in there sooner rather than later.

With that in mind, unless someone absolutely, positively *must* have a new computer, they're going to wait until the entire product line moves to the G5. I sure as hell know that I will.

I just bought a G3 iBook so my thought is no effect. Since the platforms are binary compatable there is really no concern in the short term. Once the Software Manufacturers stop shipping the Fat Binaries (which they will hopefully do) then I will be concerned. Hell, OS X 10.3 isn't even going to be 64bit. Then again what is 64bit?

Just like the UltraSPARCs IBM/Apple/Moto did an excellent job designing this processor for the next generation.

[ryan]

Originally posted by pilotgi
No Steve = no PowerBook.

Maybe the following week. They're bound to be upgraded soon.
I disagree, if all Apple does is bring the 15" PB in line with the 12" & 17" models (bluetooth, aiport extreme, etc.) and bump up the speeds, that doesn't make for a very big announcement so Steve isn't really needed.

[bigdog]

Originally posted by AtariST
Nice being mentioned, but I don't remember us publishing anything about PowerBooks at NY. :)

Well...

PowerPage indicates that according to one of their sources, the 15" Aluminum PowerBook may make an appearance during the Apple's Feature Presentation at MacworldExpo (New York City, NY).

Greg Joswiak, Apple's VP of Hardware and Product Marketing, will be giving a speech on Wednesday, July 16 between 9:30am-10:30am EST.

Link to comments (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=31772)

[rpkrajewski]

Anybody who is wondering why Panther is not going to be 64-bit (whatever THAT means) needs to be schooled:

- 64-bitness is not going benefit most applications, and can in fact bloat the memory footprint of a program
- EVERY OS service need to be ported to 64-bit. Not only does the code need to work, but all the external data formats (especially the binary ones) need to be supported carefully. In addition, 64-bit code often performs differently depending on the way structures are laid out in memory.
- All or at least certain classes of device drivers MUST be ported to 64-bit.
- If Apple is not going to force everybody to compile two versions of their program, then they've got to implement a coexistence scheme where 32- and 64- bit applications that need to share things (streams, memory, locks, etc.) can actually do so. It's not easy ! Anybody who programmed Windows during the 16 to 32-bit transition knows this is true.

Apple will have to address 64-bit address and API for user space eventually, but I wouldn't expect anything under 2005. Maybe they'll take an incremental step and do a 64-bit ABI for the BSD layer and a few things like Core Foundation, so that people can port their server apps that would actually benefit (like Oracle !) to 64-bit.

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by wizard
The issue with panther is to be expected to a certain extent. People are looking at this as an applications issue, its not the PPC should be able to support 32 bit and 64 bit applications at the same time. It appears that they just hacked panther enough to permit booting of tthe 970.

To support 64-bit applications, there has to be support for 64-bit memory spaces. That requires the entire system to be able to handle 64-bit pointers which involves verifying that lots of code is 64-bit clean. I doubt that support for the 970 was just 'hacked' in, but that the job of fully supporting a 64-bit environment is a tough one.

I'm still wondering if Panther is a bridge implementation. That is will it allow the use of the extended addressing capabilities of the G4 in a way that is also compatable with the G5. A G4 powerbook capable of handling large memory systems would be nice. That is until a good implementation of the 970 in a portable can be offered.

A Powerbook simply isn't going to have more than 4 memory slots, and that itself is a stretch. And AFAIK 1GB SO-DIMMs in the profile required for the PowerBook still aren't available and probably won't be for a while. So if they are able to engineer 4 slots into a PowerBook you may see 4GB by next year. But I doubt that, so I wouldn't expect huge memory systems regardless of the processor on the PowerBook.

Regardless, it's often the memory controller that has more to do with the amount of RAM that a system supports than anything else.

Originally posted by rpkrajewski
- 64-bitness ... can in fact bloat the memory footprint of a program

Not that much, at least not on the PowerPC. The only bloat you would see would be that function entry points and other pointers would double in size. Assuming the average program has about 4000 functions that's 16K on disk. Assuming about 10,000 pointers makes for 40K in memory. Neither bit of bloat is particularly mind blowing.

- Not only does the code need to work, but all the external data formats (especially the binary ones) need to be supported carefully. In addition, 64-bit code often performs differently depending on the way structures are laid out in memory.

External data formats are not a big concern, and neither is the way that data is laid out in memory because the same smaller sized memory loads are all available. The only performance impact would have to do with alignment and that hit is already being taken on 32-bit PowerPCs. The bigger concern is code that assumes that a pointer is 32-bits and stuffs one into a 32-bit integer. This and other issues comprises how 64-bit clean a section of code is (anyone who was around 10 years ago may have heard the phrase 32-bit clean when the Mac was moving from 24-bit addressing to 32-bit addressing).

- All or at least certain classes of device drivers MUST be ported to 64-bit.

Everything in the kernal must be 64-bit clean. Anything running in user land can stay 64-bit ignorant (but only run in 32-bit programs).

- If Apple is not going to force everybody to compile two versions of their program, then they've got to implement a coexistence scheme where 32- and 64- bit applications that need to share things (streams, memory, locks, etc.) can actually do so. It's not easy ! Anybody who programmed Windows during the 16 to 32-bit transition knows this is true.

First I doubt that Apple will force developers to compile their programs as 64-bit, that would be absurd given that 90+% of the programs out there would make no use of the extra memory space.

Second, anything that is shared between programs has to go through the kernal, and thus it can be handled there, once. The difference between MacOS X 32/64 and Windows 16/32 is that MacOS X never had an implicit shared memory space. By default all applications have their own unique memory space and cannot touch each other at all, while on Windows the upper 2GB of each programs' memory space is shared. So for two prorgams to share something there has to be arbitration through the kernal which is the only entity that knows about other memory spaces. Basically, sharing under MacOS X (and I presume other unicies) doesn't involve direct pointer access, or even the same memory address in each memory space for the shared resource.

[ZildjianKX]

Originally posted by rpkrajewski
Anybody who is wondering why Panther is not going to be 64-bit (whatever THAT means) needs to be schooled:

- 64-bitness is not going benefit most applications, and can in fact bloat the memory footprint of a program
- EVERY OS service need to be ported to 64-bit. Not only does the code need to work, but all the external data formats (especially the binary ones) need to be supported carefully. In addition, 64-bit code often performs differently depending on the way structures are laid out in memory.
- All or at least certain classes of device drivers MUST be ported to 64-bit.
- If Apple is not going to force everybody to compile two versions of their program, then they've got to implement a coexistence scheme where 32- and 64- bit applications that need to share things (streams, memory, locks, etc.) can actually do so. It's not easy ! Anybody who programmed Windows during the 16 to 32-bit transition knows this is true.

Apple will have to address 64-bit address and API for user space eventually, but I wouldn't expect anything under 2005. Maybe they'll take an incremental step and do a 64-bit ABI for the BSD layer and a few things like Core Foundation, so that people can port their server apps that would actually benefit (like Oracle !) to 64-bit.

I agree with you on your 640bit discussion. The fact that Apple is making such a big deal about 64-bit processors and not using this is kind of *yawn*... a 64-bit version of Windows XP Pro will probably be out long before Jaguar/Panther that is 64-bit optimized.

[MhzDoesMatter]

Originally posted by ZildjianKX
I agree with you on your 640bit discussion. The fact that Apple is making such a big deal about 64-bit processors and not using this is kind of *yawn*... a 64-bit version of Windows XP Pro will probably be out long before Jaguar/Panther that is 64-bit optimized.

But the mass market of Window's users wont care, and probably won't upgrade.

-Hertz

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by ZildjianKX
a 64-bit version of Windows XP Pro will probably be out long before Jaguar/Panther that is 64-bit optimized.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/default.asp

64-bit XP Pro is already shipping, it is called Microsoft® Windows® XP 64-Bit Edition Version 2003, and was released to manufacturing in March (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/mar03/03-28WinXP64BitPR.asp).

Note that this is not the same product as Windows Server 2003, which also has 64-bit versions.

[ogun7]

Originally posted by jbomber
Hehehe. I just want one...

WHY CAN'T I HAVE JUST ONE!

WHY GOD, WHY!?!
I'll get you one jbuddy. Heck I'm in brooklyn too,....but there's a catch...

[sonofslim]

Originally posted by ogun7
Heck I'm in brooklyn too

I can see it now, somewhere way, way down on 4th Avene: "Psst... hey... hey buddy... you wanna buy a G5? Top quality. Yeah, it's real. It fell off the back of a truck. You want it or not?"

[Abstract]

Originally posted by Mudbug

Seriously, I think that Joswiak has just as much reason to intro the new 15" pBook as Jobs - he is the head Hardware guy, and this is hardware, and a hardware UPDATE at that... Steve already had his fun with the 12 & 17" models.

Agreed. Steve would only come out if he was making a major product announcement. An update to the 15" PB model so that it looks like the other 2 models in it's line isn't a major announcement. Joswiak isn't announcing a new design. It's really just a product update. Everybody has already seen the design of the 12" and 17" PB's. There is nothing new to announce for the 15" other than that it has finally caught up with the others in terms of casing.

[jbomber]

Originally posted by ogun7
I'll get you one jbuddy. Heck I'm in brooklyn too,....but there's a catch...

Deal! Who do we have to bury?

[thebossisback]

is anyone hoping that a new iBook will come out!!????

[jbomber]

Originally posted by thebossisback
is anyone hoping that a new iBook will come out!!????

I think the majority of people are more shocked/concerned/hopeful about the current state of the 15" powerbook. it's WAAAAAY overdue for a revision. Everyone's hoping that Wednesday is the day.

[Docrjm]

Originally posted by jbomber
Deal! Who do we have to bury?
Can I get one too!!!!:D

[Dragonneyes]

Originally posted by jbomber
Everyone's hoping that Wednesday is the day.

*crosses fingers...then another set...then some toes...*

Wow, I didn't know toes were that flexible.

Come on, Apple, don't let me down now! 'Cuz we all know that they never let down their loyal fans. *cough, cough*

[10 Goto 10]

Disclaimer should at minimum read:
Disclaimer: Posts are so often filled with such eviscerating sarcasm that little attention or detail is exercised i.e. spelling, grammar, and simple respect for the English language.

Or where you trying to be funny?

[thebossisback]

to me its sounding that MW may be good if they anounce new PB, but otherwise its gonna suck

[jbomber]

Originally posted by thebossisback
to me its sounding that MW may be good if they anounce new PB, but otherwise its gonna suck

Cross your fingers for Apple to release something today - tuesday. I have a feeling that they're willing to let MWNY come and go without a big announcement.

[MacsomJRR]

Here is a theory... Maybe Jobs is thinking about leaving Apple in order to relax or start a new company perhaps due to the recent success of iTunes and possibly the upcoming iMovies software (note:iMovies not iMovie). Soooooooooooooo Joswiak needs some practice at giving exciting new hardware annoucements and will therefore be doing so in New York at Macworld Creative Pro. :eek:

[MacsomJRR]

What in the blazes happened to "The Year of The Powerbook!" Seriously? I am distressed by this. I really am. I think I'm shedding.

[jbomber]

Originally posted by MacsomJRR
What in the blazes happened to "The Year of The Powerbook!" Seriously? I am distressed by this. I really am. I think I'm shedding.

Guess we'll find out in a day or 2


I hope we don't end up heartbroken again...

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by ryan
I disagree, if all Apple does is bring the 15" PB in line with the 12" & 17" models (bluetooth, aiport extreme, etc.) and bump up the speeds, that doesn't make for a very big announcement so Steve isn't really needed.

sure it's not as big as panther or the G5

but for us laptop fiends, this would be a great announcement

of course, the big announcement of the future will the the G5 powerbook:D

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by MacsomJRR
Here is a theory... Maybe Jobs is thinking about leaving Apple in order to relax or start a new company perhaps due to the recent success of iTunes and possibly the upcoming iMovies software (note:iMovies not iMovie). Soooooooooooooo Joswiak needs some practice at giving exciting new hardware annoucements and will therefore be doing so in New York at Macworld Creative Pro. :eek:

high tech is a fast moving world and nobody hangs around for long

after a major boost in 98 and 99 with imac/ibook/g4, apple has kind of stalled out on major growth or switchers

i can see steve starting a new company and being hailed as the great innovator, again:D

mid 70s - cofounder of apple inc
late 90s - great savior of apple and return to greatness
2000s - founder of some yet unnamed multimedia empire which will again change the way we live

one can only hope