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Veldek
Jul 12, 2003, 06:01 AM
MacBidouille (http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-07-12#181) posts the following:

Here are some informations we have just received concerning the G5 :

- Keyboard and mouse will not be ones from eMac, they will be specially dedicated for G5
- Displays will have a slight change, there will no longer be horizontal stripes (as shown on Mac4ever)
- Mono-Processor G5 will be ready for the 1st week of August and the 3rd for the Dual-Processors
- Superdrive will be a Sony, and shall not be bridled

adamfilip
Jul 12, 2003, 08:51 AM
sounds good.. i cant wait till i get to see one in store

really hope they release a new keyboard..

i want backlit keys like on the 17" pb also how bout a built in finger print reader for secure login's :)

Veldek
Jul 12, 2003, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by adamfilip
i want backlit keys like on the 17" pb also how bout a built in finger print reader for secure login's :)

Wow, this would be amazingly cool, indeed! I still hope they introduce Bluetooth peripherals, but I don't think that they will ship them with the G5, but make them available as an extra buy for those who want them.

Schiffi
Jul 12, 2003, 01:07 PM
ugh, I've had problems with Sony DVD burners under Windows. Let's hope installing them under a Mac fixes it.

XnavxeMiyyep
Jul 12, 2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Schiffi
ugh, I've had problems with Sony DVD burners under Windows. Let's hope installing them under a Mac fixes it.
The keyword here is Windows.:D

ZildjianKX
Jul 12, 2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Veldek
3rd for the Dual-Processors
- Superdrive will be a Sony, and shall not be bridled

What is bridled?

tpjunkie
Jul 12, 2003, 03:06 PM
firmware not allowing the recording of both DVD-R/W and DVD+R/W...i sure hope its unbridled!

WM.
Jul 12, 2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
What is bridled?
Good question. :)

My guess is they mean that DVD-RW and DVD+R[W] won't be disabled like they are on the Sony drives in some new iMacs. (I don't have a Mac with a SuperDrive, so don't crawl up my ass if DVD-RW is supported already :) ; I know you can force iDVD to burn to one, but I'm not sure about the Finder.)

But I don't know how likely this is, considering that DVD+R[W] would probably require support in the OS, and there haven't been any indications that Panther has any changes in this department.

FWIW
WM

edit: Looks like tpjunkie beat me to the punch!

Freg3000
Jul 12, 2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by tpjunkie
firmware not allowing the recording of both DVD-R/W and DVD+R/W...i sure hope its unbridled!

I like everything of mine unbridled..... :)

This all seems to be good for Apple.

bikertwin
Jul 12, 2003, 04:09 PM
A thread on the Power Mac G5 forum on Apple's site (see the "Pioneer dvr-106" thread on the "G5 Comments & Questions" forum) suggests that the drive is the Pioneer A06/106 (the G5 specs supposedly match the A06/106 specs better than the Sony specs). And an Apple Helper there suggests that it will in fact be bridled (e.g., DVD+R/RW disabled in ROM).

***BEGIN QUOTE***

Dave Sawyer
(Helper)
RE: Pioneer dvr-106
(msg # 1.: Posted Jul 8, 03 3:42 pm)

Posts: 12555

The SuperDrive in the G5 will remain a DVD-R drive, not a combination DVD-R/DVD+R as the DVD-106 is. Whether the mechanism will be based on the DVR-106 or not we probably won't know until the units start shipping.

=======

Krishna Kant
RE(1): RE: Pioneer dvr-106
(msg # 1.1: Posted Jul 8, 03 4:13 pm)

Posts: 39

Dave:

If the mechanism is the Pioneer 106, how would +R recording be disabled?

From the specs listed in the developer doc, it would appear that the superdrive in the G5 is indeed the 106. Neither the Pioneer 105 nor any of the Sony drives match the listed specs, while the 106 matches those specs spot-on.

***END QUOTE***

I sure hope MacBidoulle is correct.

Nebrie
Jul 12, 2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by ZildjianKX
What is bridled?

restrained, restricted

Squire
Jul 12, 2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Schiffi
ugh, I've had problems with Sony DVD burners under Windows. Let's hope installing them under a Mac fixes it.

My iMac has a Sony Superdrive and (knock on wood) I haven't experienced any problems with it.

Squire

Kermit
Jul 12, 2003, 07:04 PM
Could someone please explain to me why, oh why, Apple would do such a thing as disable the DVD+RW function of its Superdrives?

MisterMe
Jul 12, 2003, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Kermit
Could someone please explain to me why, oh why, Apple would do such a thing as disable the DVD+RW function of its Superdrives? Apple supports only DVD-R[W]. By disabling DVD+R[W] on drives with dual format capability (DVD-R[W]/DVD-R[W]), Apple can transparently intermingle various model drives in its product lines.

bosskxx1
Jul 12, 2003, 08:14 PM
The DVD-R competes with DVD+R. They are virtually identical, with the only notable exception that DVD+R has a special transfer mode for future versions of Windows (Longhorn?). Plus Microsoft supports DVD+R, and the standard according to the DVD forum is the DVD-R. So it is logical that Apple goes with standards and supports only the DVD-R. If you really want to burn a DVD+R disk, I think you can do it with Toast 5.

Really this only competition format is just confusing for consumers.

While I would really like my Power Mac G5 on the first week of August, I think that is a premature guess. According to Apple, it says it won't be available until or before 9/2/03. So I am guessing more or less the last week of August.

However I hope that I am wrong and do get it on the first week of August.

pyrotoaster
Jul 12, 2003, 08:21 PM
"Will be ready..."
People with pre-orders have confirmed that Apple's pushed back the shipping dates into early September. I don't see how the machines could be "Ready" in the first week of August, then.
Of course, what's MacBidouille definition of the word "Ready"?

Sayhey
Jul 12, 2003, 08:36 PM
I will make a trip over to Emeryville to see one of these close up. Glad to hear that those rumors of delays into September probably aren't true. Now if I could get a firm release date on Panther and iTMS for windows I'd be happy. The combination should help Apple's sales tremendously.

Kermit
Jul 12, 2003, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by bosskxx1
The DVD-R competes with DVD+R. They are vertically identical, with the only notable exception that DVD+R has a special transfer mode for future versions of Windows (Longhorn?). Plus Microsoft supports DVD+R, and the standard according to the DVD forum is the DVD-R. So it is logical that Apple goes with standards and supports only the DVD-R. If you really want to burn DVD+R disk, I think you can with Toast 5.

Hearing it that way I agree with your conclusion. Staying with standards is a good thing. But then why does not Apple officially support the full DVD-RW specification? It only support DVD-R when, as you say, there is DVD-RW and DVD-RAM also. I know you can burn DVD-RW with Toast but why no official support from Apple?

[Edit: CD/DVD mixup]

WM.
Jul 12, 2003, 09:33 PM
Couple things:

There are no "rumors" of G5 shipping dates being pushed back to September. To my knowledge, people who have ordered G5s have been told that their orders will ship on or before September 2nd. Please note that this does not rule out an earlier ship date! Both MacBidouille and the conventional wisdom (early September) can simultaneously be right. There are *possible* delays into September, but they are *not* rumors.

Also, I'm curious how Apple doesn't support CD-RW. I personally haven't tried burning one yet (only CD-Rs), and I guess I haven't paid attention to discussions of incompatibility/lack of support. So I'd appreciate if anyone could shed any light on that situation.

Or did Kermit make a typo/brain fart and mean DVD-RW instead? :)

WM

Jeff Harrell
Jul 12, 2003, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by WM.
Also, I'm curious how Apple doesn't support CD-RW. I personally haven't tried burning one yet (only CD-Rs), and I guess I haven't paid attention to discussions of incompatibility/lack of support. So I'd appreciate if anyone could shed any light on that situation.

Or did Kermit make a typo/brain fart and mean DVD-RW instead?
Doesn't matter. In either case, the answer is "no." Or "yes," depending on which way you look at it.

Both CD-RW and DVD-RW are supported in current-generation SuperDrive Macs. (I don't know about previous generations firsthand, but I think it's the same.) Insert a blank CD-RW or DVD-RW, and you can burn it with the Finder or iTunes or iPhoto or whatever. Insert a written CD-RW or DVD-RW and it comes up as a read-only volume, but pop open Disk Utility and behold as the "Erase" button lights up. Erase the CD-RW/DVD-RW, and you're ready to roll.

I do all of these operations on a daily basis on my MDD G4 with SuperDrive and 10.2.

WM.
Jul 13, 2003, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
Doesn't matter. In either case, the answer is "no." Or "yes," depending on which way you look at it.

Both CD-RW and DVD-RW are supported in current-generation SuperDrive Macs. (I don't know about previous generations firsthand, but I think it's the same.) Insert a blank CD-RW or DVD-RW, and you can burn it with the Finder or iTunes or iPhoto or whatever. Insert a written CD-RW or DVD-RW and it comes up as a read-only volume, but pop open Disk Utility and behold as the "Erase" button lights up. Erase the CD-RW/DVD-RW, and you're ready to roll.
OK, thanks for clearing that up. So I think we could all agree that there should be support for erasing already-written -RWs in the Finder.

As for Apple support of +R[W], I guess I'm of two minds about it--on the one hand, it's bad for the DVD Forum to be circumvented. Official standards are good. On the other hand, if something's relatively unproprietary and a lot of people use it, it might as well be an official standard anyway, plus the consumer can only benefit from a drive that reads and writes all the formats seamlessly--and an OS that fully supports that drive.

WM

bikertwin
Jul 13, 2003, 09:21 AM
Apple DOES NOT support ANY external CD-R/RW drive, using the Backup app that comes with .Mac. Apple DOES NOT support any internal CD-R/RW that it did not factory install--even if that CD-R/RW says "fully supported" in System Profiler.

Likewise, it looks like they're only going to support Apple-installed, internal, original SuperDrives.

This in spite of the fact that the entire industry is moving to dual-format drives. So there's no excuse that they need to disable +R/RW in order to source the drives from multiple OEMs. That simply isn't true. Sony, Pioneer, TDK, Iomega ... *everybody* is moving to dual format.

Everybody beats up on Microsoft for the whole Palladium thing, and yet no one in the Mac community cares that Apple is forcing users to use only original, Apple-installed hardware in order to use its software.

I may de-switch.

Jeff Harrell
Jul 13, 2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by bikertwin
Apple DOES NOT support ANY external CD-R/RW drive, using the Backup app that comes with .Mac. Apple DOES NOT support any internal CD-R/RW that it did not factory install--even if that CD-R/RW says "fully supported" in System Profiler.
Define "support." Do you mean, it won't work? Wrong. I have a QPS CD-RW that I back up to with Backup regularly. I had it on the FireWire bus for a while, then I removed it from its case and moved it to the second slot in my G4.

On the other hand, will Apple promise that it will work, and provide technical support if it doesn't? Of course not. That's what "third-party" means.
So there's no excuse that they need to disable +R/RW in order to source the drives from multiple OEMs.
Excuse? Who said anything about making an excuse? Apple's selling a product. If you don't like it, buy somebody else's.
Everybody beats up on Microsoft for the whole Palladium thing, and yet no one in the Mac community cares that Apple is forcing users to use only original, Apple-installed hardware in order to use its software.
First of all, I personally couldn't care less about Palladium. Microsoft sees a demand in the marketplace for a secure computing platform. This is certainly the case. How often are we seeing new security-related warnings come from the major vendors? Once a week? Twice? It's completely out of hand.

So there's this demand, and Microsoft is working to meet it. Good for them. I wish them success.

But here's the thing. What do Microsoft's plan to develop a secure computing platform and Apple's decision to fully support only factory-installed peripherals have in common?

That's not a rhetorical question. I really want to know. 'Cause I'm drawing a blank here.

simX
Jul 13, 2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by bikertwin
Apple DOES NOT support ANY external CD-R/RW drive, using the Backup app that comes with .Mac. Apple DOES NOT support any internal CD-R/RW that it did not factory install--even if that CD-R/RW says "fully supported" in System Profiler.

Likewise, it looks like they're only going to support Apple-installed, internal, original SuperDrives.

This in spite of the fact that the entire industry is moving to dual-format drives. So there's no excuse that they need to disable +R/RW in order to source the drives from multiple OEMs. That simply isn't true. Sony, Pioneer, TDK, Iomega ... *everybody* is moving to dual format.

Everybody beats up on Microsoft for the whole Palladium thing, and yet no one in the Mac community cares that Apple is forcing users to use only original, Apple-installed hardware in order to use its software.

I may de-switch.

Actually, Backup supports third-party CD-RW drives. The latest versions (1.2.2 and 1.2.3) have a problem with them that disable the functioning of third-party drives, from what I've heard, but it seems to be just a PROBLEM, not an intentional disabling, since 1.2.1 and before supported third-party drives (as pointed out by Jeff Harrell).

Also -- how is Apple was forcing you to use Apple-installed hardware? The only restriction I know of is iDVD. Backup supports (see caveat above) third-party CD-RW drives, the Finder supports third-party CD-RW drives, iTunes support third-party CD-RW drives. What's this lack of third-party support of which you speak?

... this is not to mention all the built-in support for things like FireWire drives, printers, scanners, etc., etc.

It seems to me like Apple, more often than not, is going out of its way to support any third-party peripherals in order to make the Mac a plug-and-play platform in every single case. That's much more than I can say for Windows.

If you want to "de-switch" and get Palladium forced down your throat, then be my guest. Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

bikertwin
Jul 13, 2003, 04:49 PM
Define "support." Do you mean, it won't work? Wrong.

Then don't upgrade to Backup 1.2.2 or 1.2.3, because it won't work. See Apple's .Mac support forums for more details. I don't make this stuff up.

The latest versions (1.2.2 and 1.2.3) have a problem with them that disable the functioning of third-party drives, from what I've heard, but it seems to be just a PROBLEM, not an intentional disabling

If it was a "problem" and not "intentional" why wasn't it fixed in 1.2.3? I suggest you re-read Moderator-Mark's postings in Apple's .Mac support forum. When people complain about it, he doesn't say "it's a known problem and their working on it," he says, "Apple has never officially supported ..." blah blah blah.

Excuse? Who said anything about making an excuse?

"MisterMe", actually. I was responding to this comment of his/hers:
Apple supports only DVD-R[W]. By disabling DVD+R[W] on drives with dual format capability (DVD-R[W]/DVD-R[W]), Apple can transparently intermingle various model drives in its product lines.


But here's the thing. What do Microsoft's plan to develop a secure computing platform and Apple's decision to fully support only factory-installed peripherals have in common?

That's not a rhetorical question. I really want to know. 'Cause I'm drawing a blank here.

Technology is neither good nor bad. It's the application of the technology that is good or bad. My comment has to do with control. After I buy something, what can I do with it? I paid for it; I want control over what I can do with it (well, OK, short of killing or robbing people :-)

Palladium is all about "security" and that sounds good. It locks down your machine. But the question is, who has control? Can a software company lock down your PC or an application if you fail to pay annual support fees, if you don't want support (you just want to continue using the product)? It's a real possibility. Others have discussed this at length better than I can.

It's the same thing with Apple's optical drive policy. It's one thing for Apple to say "other brands may or may not work, we don't guarantee it". It's something completely different to say, "we are rewriting the ROM so it is physically impossible to write to a particular format even though the hardware manufacturer fully supports it." Or, like in Backup, to remove all non-Apple CD and DVD writers from the list of available writers to, again, make it physically impossible to write to them.

The worst Windows will do is to pop up a dialog that states that a particular product is not certified, and ask if you want to install or use it. I am not aware of Windows or PC manufacturers disabling access to competitors products.

Does Windows only write to HP-brand CD's or CD drives if you have an HP PC? No, there's no limitation like that that I am aware of. If you call HP Support, they might say it's not an HP product so they don't guarantee compatiblity; but they never physically disable access to competing products.

And that's exactly what Apple is doing with the DVD-R-only SuperDrive and now again with the Apple-only CD/DVD-writers in Apple (.Mac) Backup.

See the difference? It's all about control.

And people are worried that Apple is killing off software developers by copying and improving their products (Watson/Sherlock, and Premiere/FinalCutPro). Are they now doing the same thing with hardware? If you were LaCie or TDK or Memorex, would you bother with Mac OS X support if Apple didn't allow your products to be used?

Think about it.

Tiauguinho
Jul 13, 2003, 05:37 PM
I was with a Powermac G5 this past Friday and the Superdrive was a Sony.

JBracy
Jul 14, 2003, 08:24 AM
I don't get the problem. Apple GIVES you software. This FREE software may or may not work with your third party peripherals.

If you really want a backup that works with your third party CD-RW pay $80 for Retrospect Express.

If you need to burn to DVD+R[W] then spend $90 on Toast.

Apple is GIVING you FREE software. It's up to them to decide what hardware they will support. And what features of that hardware they will support.

solvs
Jul 14, 2003, 10:29 AM
That's a good point.

They should let you do more, but it is free (well, built in to the cost of the computer). How good is M$' backup? Even their built in CD burner sucks. That's why most retail drives come with burner software, and why most people buy third party utilities. Buy Toast if you don't like it.

Apple could support DVD+, and better implementation of RW, and they might. But why waste the resources. Choice? They picked a format, they seem to be going with it. Again, if you want something else, no one is stopping you. This is NOTHING like Palladium.

Besides, the issue is moot until we actually se what Apple does with Pather.

We may all be pleasantly surprised...

edit: it'd be cool if Apple went with the Sony drives. Faster CD-Burning. But according to the specs, it does look like it's a Pioneer A06. With the ones that come with Sony, do they somehow make it run slower? 16x vs. 24x? That would suck. Doesn't make sense.

Do the iMacs with the Sony drives have 24x cd-r?

WM.
Jul 14, 2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by solvs
With the ones that come with Sony, do they somehow make it run slower? 16x vs. 24x? That would suck. Doesn't make sense.

Do the iMacs with the Sony drives have 24x cd-r?
Yes, I think they do. There was some discussion about this on Macintouch back when people first noticed that (1 GHz) iMacs were coming with Sony drives, and I think it was determined that they were burning at full speed.

WM

Lanbrown
Jul 14, 2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by bikertwin
Palladium is all about "security" and that sounds good. It locks down your machine.

Microsoft and security don't go together. Look at how many security patches they have released. Think about that.

bikertwin
Jul 14, 2003, 07:01 PM
JBracy & solvs,

Your posts suggest that I haven't made myself clear.

1. Toast isn't the answer because Apple physically disables DVD+R/RW in the drive's ROM. You will never be able to use that functionality with any software, whether it's Apple's or a third party's. Even though the manufacturer of the DVD drive designed, built, and tested both DVD-R and DVD+R, Apple is physically disabling your ability to use +R/RW.

2. Neither iDVD ($49) nor Backup ($99/yr for .Mac) is free.

The question is how far will Apple take this control? Will iTunes be next? How about OS X itself? If OS X only recognized Apple-installed drives, no software on earth would let you read them.

Alarmist? Perhaps. But then the question is: Well, why is Apple doing this to Backup and the SuperDrive? Where are they going with it? What if no one complains? What's their next step?

solvs
Jul 14, 2003, 11:20 PM
106 drives are DVD+R compatible with Toast, and A06 drives are not in any Macs that are shipping. If they went out of their way to disable this somehow, it seems kind-of pointless. But it would be disappointing. I haven't heard of this, though. I think this is a software issue more than a hardware one. Not going out of their way to support something they don't support.

iDVD is not meant to work with external drives. I wish it did, but it doesn't. You can always buy DVD StudioPro. Or use other third party software. More expensive yes, but it works fine with externals. And iDVD is free to new computer buyers. Backup has it's alternatives as well. Who ever said Apple HAD to support unsupported drives?

Other drives work fine with Apple software, especially internal. Even if they did stop letting you use other drives, which would be asine BTW (internal or external), especially when all new Apples have only 1 cd drive (G4 Tower notwithstanding), go to XLR8YourMac (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/) and apply a hack. If you want external drive support, you may have to use other software.

It's not like Apple sells drives, or that they expect you to buy a new computer every time you want a faster drive.

I'm hoping they fix the Backup issue, as many have complained. If this IS being done for some other nefarious purpose, then we can complain. And we will. If you don't like the options Apple is giving you, you can buy other software and/or hardware. Vote with your dollars. If Apple wants you to pay for things you don't like or want, don't buy it.

Believe me, if things go too far, WE WILL COMPLAIN.

Maybe they just have issues with some external drives.

bikertwin
Jul 15, 2003, 07:32 AM
106 drives are DVD+R compatible with Toast, and A06 drives are not in any Macs that are shipping. If they went out of their way to disable this somehow, it seems kind-of pointless. But it would be disappointing. I haven't heard of this, though.

Did it ever occur to you that this is in fact what I'm trying to say?

iDVD is not meant to work with external drives. I wish it did, but it doesn't. You can always buy DVD StudioPro. Or use other third party software

Hmmm. Re-read point #1 from my previously reply. It's not a software issue, it's a hardware issue.

Do you read or do you just reply?

Believe me, if things go too far, WE WILL COMPLAIN.

Maybe it would help more if we complained at the beginning, rather than when it's too late. Sorta like the frog in the pot of hot water that doesn't realize it's too hot until it's too late...

solvs
Jul 16, 2003, 06:43 AM
I read what you said, and I don't completely disagree.

IF the G5 ships with A06 drives and Toast cannot burn DVD+Rs, then you are right. If they refuse to listen to the complaints NOW that Backup cannot do EXTERNAL drives, a lot of people will not be renewing their .Mac subscriptions. But it is still not the end of the world, just stupid for them to do. They never have supported it. Since you can use other software, this is not about hardware.

You do know that the latest upgrade to iDVD lets you run it without a DVD burner, right? It still won't burn to external drives, but it'll still work, with other internal drives too. As can Backup. If this was a mistake, and they "fix" it, you will also have a lot of angry people, WHO WILL COMPLAIN!

Most of this does seem to be software, not hardware. And it's not that bad yet. Apple is moving away from proprietary, remember. It's more like being a frog complaining about... you know, I'm not going to even finish that. We have to wait and see, otherwise you are being reactionary. Apple's not going to disable support for other drives, they just still won't officially support it.

You're upset about something that hasn't happened yet, that might not even happen. Your basing your entire assumption on a vague statement. Before you tell me to read your posts, you might want to reread your first post. If this is the basis of your arguement, we don't have anything to worry about. This is a software issue, not hardware. Sucks that you have to buy something else if Apple's software doesn't work for you, but you can. So what's the problem?

Since when do all these drive manufacturers support Macs anyway (maybe a few)?

Read XLR8YourMac (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/). It's got some good info.

bikertwin
Jul 16, 2003, 09:11 AM
You're upset about something that hasn't happened yet

So, do you wait for the train to hit you, and only then get upset?

Or should you get upset when you see it coming at you, and warn others to step out of harm's way?

All I can say is that I see Apple's actions with regard to Backup, iDVD, and non-Apple drives, and I get scared. They own the hardware, the software, and the OS (which we all know), so they can do anything they want. They haven't seemed to have abused that power in the past (we don't need Apple-installed video cards or hard drives, for example), so I'm just curious as to why they do it with optical drives. That's all.

It's like a benevolent dictatorship gone bad.

solvs
Jul 16, 2003, 10:21 AM
I understand, and you're not wrong. I would agree... if it went that far.

The problem is, we're standing next to the tracks looking all directions. We know there could be a train, there might be a train. But there hasn't been a train in a really long time (if ever). And you're wanting us all to run. I'm not going to lay down on them and take a nap, but I'll walk over them if I have to (looking both ways of course).

If you turn out to be right, believe me, I'll be right there complaining with you. Very loudly. I like my 52x Lite-On. ;) And choice is always good, even if I have to use other software (or hacks).

I just wouldn't worry about it, especially since Apple seems to be trying really hard to adhere to standards lately.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/storage.html