iTMS for Canada [Archive] - MacRumors Forums

MacRumors

Jul 12, 2003, 09:04 PM

Globe and Mail (http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030711.rmusi0711/BNStory/Technology/) reports on the online music services and the Music Industry in Canada. It appears Canadian readers will have to wait until September at least before Apple's iTunes Music service arrives:

By mid to late September, the CRIA will have completed negotiations to set up a framework for paying music publishers and composers whose music is downloaded on pay-for-play systems, Mr. Robertson said.
That will allow Canadian-based services to start operations, he said, and allow U.S. systems such as Apple Computer Inc.'s iTunes "music store" to expand into Canada.

The article expects that Apple will add Canada to the iTunes Music store after these negotiations are complete.

Wonder Boy

Jul 12, 2003, 09:10 PM

Oh Canada.

Pedro Estarque

Jul 12, 2003, 09:18 PM

Apple must run before everybody gets into this "music store" business. If they don't, iTunes will be only one more Music Store.

Docrjm

Jul 12, 2003, 09:45 PM

Not soon enough. Hopefully they will have signed up some independants in Canada by then.

zim

Jul 12, 2003, 09:45 PM

what will be sad is if everyone, msn, aol, ect..., is sitting back waiting for apple to open up the flood gates, making it easier to negotiate other music services.

Freg3000

Jul 12, 2003, 09:51 PM

This is good news for Apple. The sooner they get this to go international the better. However, I see this as a double edge sword. Although I am sure Apple has enough resources to do both at once, I worry that apple is not focusing all its energy on iTunes for Windows, and rather spreading it out. While an international iTunes is especially good to spur sales in-between the hype of the music store as it stands and the Windows version, it might slow development of the Windows version, unfortunately. So it's a sticky situation. Develop the international versions of the music store at the risk of slowing down the Windows version, or speed it up in order to tie over sales before windows is ready?

I know that what I said was confusing (very, very confusing) but hopefully I threw so much out there that something made sense.

Nermal

Jul 12, 2003, 10:12 PM

Good to see it starting to go international. Sony NZ and Universal NZ have granted permission to Apple over here, but they're not expecting a launch until January.

rickvanr

Jul 12, 2003, 10:20 PM

how much will it cost up north? like $1.49 a song? or do u think itd still be 99 cents...

Chealion

Jul 12, 2003, 10:31 PM

About freaking time! With the Canadian Dollar rising and if Apple really wants to sell songs, they should definitely sell songs for 99 cents

MasterX (OSiX)

Jul 12, 2003, 10:41 PM

I'm willing to believe that Apple has a team for negotiating with the RIAA/Big5 etc, and they have their MacOS X team, software teams and windows apps team (for quicktime, apple works and not much else - thankfully :D)

So I think what apple does with negotiating for Mac iTunes will also work for Windows iTunes

adamfilip

Jul 12, 2003, 11:01 PM

bout time.

i bet it will be $1.50 CDN per song
but it should be $1.25

Jerry Spoon

Jul 12, 2003, 11:18 PM

I just hope the windows version in Canada is soon to follow...along with the windows version in the US.

Squire

Jul 12, 2003, 11:52 PM

I have my one-click account set up with my address in Canada, but I live in Korea. Will I be able to buy tunes?

Originally posted by Chealion
About freaking time! With the Canadian Dollar rising and if Apple really wants to sell songs, they should definitely sell songs for 99 cents

I wonder if they'll just stick to $ 0.99 US everywhere in the world?

Squire

zim

Jul 13, 2003, 12:00 AM

hum, that is an interesting question, what if one was to travel out of their own country. say if i, i live in the us, traveled to canada right now, would i be able to still buy music? never thought about that.

found my answer:
10. Territory. The Service is available only in the United States, and is not available in any other location. You agree not to use or attempt to use the Service from outside of the available territory, and that Apple may use technologies to verify your compliance.

BaghdadBob

Jul 13, 2003, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Wonder Boy
Oh Canada.
You know...I was just thinking that...of course "Not Without My Anus" was the edition I was thinking of.... :D

What can be said about this that hasn't been said already? Hurry the hell up everyone and get out of Apple's way, let them peddle their freaking wares already.

In fact, since we all have faith in Apple Corp, just don't regulate them at all and let them do whatever they need to to make as much money as possible. Go capitalism!

Docrjm

Jul 13, 2003, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by Freg3000
This is good news for Apple. The sooner they get this to go international the better. However, I see this as a double edge sword. Although I am sure Apple has enough resources to do both at once, I worry that apple is not focusing all its energy on iTunes for Windows, and rather spreading it out. While an international iTunes is especially good to spur sales in-between the hype of the music store as it stands and the Windows version, it might slow development of the Windows version, unfortunately. So it's a sticky situation. Develop the international versions of the music store at the risk of slowing down the Windows version, or speed it up in order to tie over sales before windows is ready?

I know that what I said was confusing (very, very confusing) but hopefully I threw so much out there that something made sense.
Bollocks, get iTMS out for international users ASAP. I believe that Apple has enough Programmer reserve to do both simultaneously. How do I know?
Well iTMS for windows requires programmers and iTMS international requires negotiation, two separate skills. iTMS for mac is already available, they just need to be able to accept funds other than us. :p

Abstract

Jul 13, 2003, 12:59 AM

I'm just happy to have a rough date. I was hoping it was before Jan 2004, but I didn't know when it would come. September......2004.......okay......gotcha.

Oh Canada.

...our home and native land...

Nermal

Jul 13, 2003, 01:31 AM

Originally posted by zim
hum, that is an interesting question, what if one was to travel out of their own country. say if i, i live in the us, traveled to canada right now, would i be able to still buy music? never thought about that.

found my answer:
10. Territory. The Service is available only in the United States, and is not available in any other location. You agree not to use or attempt to use the Service from outside of the available territory, and that Apple may use technologies to verify your compliance.

Huh? So why does it say somewhere that international users can use it if they've got a US credit card?

lynnpye

Jul 13, 2003, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by Freg3000
This is good news for Apple. The sooner they get this to go international the better. However, I see this as a double edge sword. Although I am sure Apple has enough resources to do both at once, I worry that apple is not focusing all its energy on iTunes for Windows, and rather spreading it out. While an international iTunes is especially good to spur sales in-between the hype of the music store as it stands and the Windows version, it might slow development of the Windows version, unfortunately. So it's a sticky situation. Develop the international versions of the music store at the risk of slowing down the Windows version, or speed it up in order to tie over sales before windows is ready?

I know that what I said was confusing (very, very confusing) but hopefully I threw so much out there that something made sense.

To be honest, I don't see that there would be much overlap here. Most of the work to get iTMS to go international is likely licensing, legal and accounting issues. The work to get iTunes on Windows is probably mostly technical. So I see developers doing the Windows port and lawyers, accountants, marketers doing the iTMS international push.

dguisinger

Jul 13, 2003, 02:44 AM

Personally, I'm not going to use iTunes anymore. After a mishap with Panther erasing both partitions of my drive, I don't feel I owe apple another $0.99 for every song I had. Luckily I only had 10 songs, but I don't think they deserve to get paid for their bugs.

I wouldn't mind paying $2 to redownload all purchased music, but paying full price to replace, no way.

BaghdadBob

Jul 13, 2003, 03:09 AM

kanaka

Jul 13, 2003, 04:28 AM

Vonnie

Jul 13, 2003, 04:41 AM

Great, now the rest of the world!

Come on Apple, try to show a little bit of respect for the non-us customers.. We already pay a hefty premium on hard and software and don't get the same services (book printing in iPhoto for example).

hvfsl

Jul 13, 2003, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by kanaka
Ummm, riiight. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Panther still only a developer preview release? If you're using a beta operating system you shouldn't be surprised to find bugs, even serious ones (you are a developer, right?). And if you are using a beta operating system, wouldn't you deem it prudent to back up your stuff? I hope I don't sound like too much of a jerk, but your post just doesn't make any sense to me!

But iTMS should have a system where the user can re-download the music if they have already bought it and it has been erased. Of cource you can also get the song again for Kazaa, but the quality is not always as good as the songs on iTMS because they are in MP3. Lots of other companies that offer download software for sale let you download it again if it has been erased from your HD.

Also it is very hard to back the music up, since you first need to de-authorize it and then copy it to another disk. However you may not then be able to play it on your Mac. You can't back it up on an ipod ether, because you can't copy it back to your Mac.

This is why I will be keeping to buying CDs for the time being since there are too many restrictions of iTMS music (although Apple is still the most relaxed in terms of what you can do with your music, compared to other music download shops.)

Squire

Jul 13, 2003, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by Nermal
Huh? So why does it say somewhere that international users can use it if they've got a US credit card?

Well, you see, I think I can order prints through iPhoto with my Korean credit card and Canadian address. (I haven't gone through the whole procedure yet but just about.) The iTunes Music Store, on the other hand, shoots me down as soon as I log in. "Sorry, it's not available in your country yet...blah, blah, blah."

Squire

Stella

Jul 13, 2003, 07:34 AM

It doesn't matter what country you live in - the key is having a US credit card registered to a US address...

[i]The iTunes Music Store, on the other hand, shoots me down as soon as I log in. "Sorry, it's not available in your country yet...blah, blah, blah."

Squire [/B]

Stella

Jul 13, 2003, 07:37 AM

Canada will be $1.50 + Tax

European users get to pay extra - EU1.50 + TAX.

The UK will get the extra special premuim price of 2 pounds.

The record companies will ensure that non US customers get ripped off - just because they can - especially in the UK where its "Rip Off Britain".

Squire

Jul 13, 2003, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Stella
Canada will be $1.50 + Tax

European users get to pay extra - EU1.50 + TAX.

The UK will get the extra special premuim price of 2 pounds.

The record companies will ensure that non US customers get ripped off - just because they can - especially in the UK where its "Rip Off Britain".

If it's $1.50 + tax, the Limewire/Kazaa Music Store will be getting my business. ;)

Squire

Postal

Jul 13, 2003, 08:40 AM

If you converted the US store prices over to Canadian currency, right now we'd be paying about $1.36 CDN per song. As for tax... well, maybe Apple will make it $1.50 per song with tax already included (probably just GST), so you know exactly how much you're paying. $15 per album in most cases.

What I'm sincerely hoping is that Apple manages to sign a lot of Canadian labels/artists in one fell swoop, especially if they can nab electronic artists. I don't remember them having a lot of the more Canadian-oriented Nettwerk artists on the US iTunes store, for example. BT? Delerium? I'd love to see them there, if they aren't already. I'd also like to see artists like The New Deal (http://www.thenewdeal.ca) or Misstress Barbara (http://www.relentlessmusic.com/flash.html) on the store.

Dave K

Jul 13, 2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by Stella
Canada will be $1.50 + Tax They won't have much luck if it is.

While MSRP may be $21/$22 or so, new CD's can be purchased for $14.99 CDN on a fairly regular basis at anywhere other than HMV, the worlds leading music retailer for suckers..

rjwill246

Jul 13, 2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by Squire
I have my one-click account set up with my address in Canada, but I live in Korea. Will I be able to buy tunes?

Squire

The answer is 'yes' you can. My son who is in Australia with a US bank account, has used it from day one just as if he were here.

Phazer80s

Jul 13, 2003, 09:32 AM

$1.50 sounds about right. Well, close to the price point Apple will probably ask. I see it at $1.49, because that extra penny means so darn much. Whatever.

A buck and a half is still too much given the lower price of music in Canada. New release albums regularly cost $14.99; an encoded version should sell for less. The absence of physical media, album art and liner notes/lyrics alone should reduce the price. Don't forget usage restrictions and any sound loss from encoding. IMHO $1.25 is more reasonable with $12.99 per album of 11 songs or more.

But on another tangent, the iTMS' pricing scheme is too rigid. I still think Apple should sell some of it's 128 kbps AACs at $0.75 U.S. ("a cut for 3 quarters.") Considering the sometimes flaky quality of the encoding (check out the tinny, quavering chorus of Rhiannon on Fleetwood Mac's Greatest Hits, for one example-- uugh) it makes no sense to buy a track or album so inferior to a CD at comparable price. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of examples of great encoding on the Store (just about late 1990s-or-later album will do.) It's the broad inconsistency that makes the lone rate bothersome.

I noticed the iTMS' album rate is especially exorbitant on Universal's 20th Century Masters collections. Here in Canada they sell for $7.99-$8.99; that's ~$5.80-$6.50 U.S. And the iTMS wants $9.99 U.S.? Please. I know Apple's in a bit of a bind considering regualtions and contracts, but it's pricing scheme needs flexibility. It doesn't account for discount compilation albums or quantity-purchase discounts retailers offer. Perhaps something closer to the Amazon model (various prices with plenty of sub-retail discounts) would be more reasonable.

JD!

Jul 13, 2003, 10:02 AM

So it's a sticky situation. Develop the international versions of the music store at the risk of slowing down the Windows version, or speed it up in order to tie over sales before windows is ready?

I know that what I said was confusing (very, very confusing) but hopefully I threw so much out there that something made sense.

Confusing? No. Dumb? You bet! What a programmer does and what Apple legal does with the record companies are so totally seperate I would be surprised if they even knew where each others offices are, if they are even in the same building. Yes....that's it....I'll program and do my own legal!! Sheesh.

asim

Jul 13, 2003, 10:26 AM

With regard to pricing once iTMS goes to canada and beyond, is it common practice in other countries to use slightly less than whole unit increments?

For instance, a $1 item in the USA is often priced $0.99. Heck, gas is priced using 0.9 cents ontop of the base price (e.g. $1.299/gallon...). Do other countries do the same, or is it common to have an item for exactly 1 euro, 1 pound, 10,000 lira (in italy before the euro)... will we be buying songs in turkey for 999,999 lira, or will they round it off to a cool million?

Freg3000

Jul 13, 2003, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by JD!

Confusing? No. Dumb? You bet! What a programmer does and what Apple legal does with the record companies are so totally seperate I would be surprised if they even knew where each others offices are, if they are even in the same building. Yes....that's it....I'll program and do my own legal!! Sheesh.

First off, I'll refrain from making this a personal attack. :)

I understand that my idea is obviously flawed, as pointed out by many already. The connections between developing the Windows iTMS and the international legal situation are almost none, so I see how what I said was wrong.

On the subject of the pricing, especially in Canada, I think it will be $1.49.

P.S. If you would like to quote a post, click the quote button. That will allow you to respond in that forum while quoting a particular post.

Docrjm

Jul 13, 2003, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by Squire
Well, you see, I think I can order prints through iPhoto with my Korean credit card and Canadian address. (I haven't gone through the whole procedure yet but just about.) The iTunes Music Store, on the other hand, shoots me down as soon as I log in. "Sorry, it's not available in your country yet...blah, blah, blah."

Squire
No. Apple requires billing and shipping addressess to both be in the same country. I know , having moved to Canada, tried a uk card to purchase powermac and was told not possible. I had to contact a third party retailer.

dguisinger

Jul 13, 2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
Ah, I believe you just have to hit "Check for purchased music" and it replaces all of it for you. Have you tried that? I'm pretty sure it works like that.

Unfortunately no, it says you have already downloaded all purchased music.

If you go to purchase the music you already own, it says you already own this music, do you wish to purchase it again.

Lousey design. I can understand if they have bandwidth costs, but the recording industry should not take their share out of it if I have to pay for their bandwidth costs of downloading music I already own.

dguisinger

Jul 13, 2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by kanaka
Ummm, riiight. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Panther still only a developer preview release? If you're using a beta operating system you shouldn't be surprised to find bugs, even serious ones (you are a developer, right?). And if you are using a beta operating system, wouldn't you deem it prudent to back up your stuff? I hope I don't sound like too much of a jerk, but your post just doesn't make any sense to me!

Of course I'm a developer. I'm also an experienced beta tester. I have beta tested Windows since Windows 95 OEM SR 2. However normally I wouldn't expect that type of bug during formatting a partition, that it formats another as well. Maybe Disk Utility was messed up, as I did not know I had a blank 4.8GB partition....maybe it just decided that it wanted one and adjusted the size of my other partition and displayed it as if it was the current valid partition map, I dont know. All I did was change the format of the blank partition and bam, both got erased. The closest thing I ever had from MS was a Fat32 bug in a beta of Windows 2000 that caused Windows 2000 installer to erase a Fat32 hard drive.

But getting back to the point....what should I backup on a computer? I had a few projects on here, most not so important. My cocoa apps, backed up and I stopped developing them a long time ago. My video projects? too bad, werent that important. My music? never though of it. Shouldn't have had to think of it.

dguisinger

Jul 13, 2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by hvfsl
But iTMS should have a system where the user can re-download the music if they have already bought it and it has been erased. Of cource you can also get the song again for Kazaa, but the quality is not always as good as the songs on iTMS because they are in MP3. Lots of other companies that offer download software for sale let you download it again if it has been erased from your HD.

Also it is very hard to back the music up, since you first need to de-authorize it and then copy it to another disk. However you may not then be able to play it on your Mac. You can't back it up on an ipod ether, because you can't copy it back to your Mac.

Exactly. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has this view.

zsmooth

Jul 13, 2003, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by hvfsl
Also it is very hard to back the music up, since you first need to de-authorize it and then copy it to another disk. However you may not then be able to play it on your Mac. You can't back it up on an ipod ether, because you can't copy it back to your Mac.

You certainly don't need to de-authorize anything to backup your music files. De-authorizing affects your computer, the files themselves never change. Just copy them onto a CD and they can still be played on any computer you authorize. It's not that difficult.

BaghdadBob

Jul 13, 2003, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by dguisinger
Unfortunately no, it says you have already downloaded all purchased music.

If you go to purchase the music you already own, it says you already own this music, do you wish to purchase it again.

Lousey design. I can understand if they have bandwidth costs, but the recording industry should not take their share out of it if I have to pay for their bandwidth costs of downloading music I already own.
Well, I've had it work for me in the instance of a single song. I don't know what to tell you, except contact customer service. They've been pretty good to me in the one or two problems I've had.

aethier

Jul 13, 2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Chealion
About freaking time! With the Canadian Dollar rising and if Apple really wants to sell songs, they should definitely sell songs for 99 cents

Actually the dollar isnt really rising, it onlly seems to go up, because we compaire it to the u.s dollar witch is falling. if you compaire it to the euro, it isnt realy gaining or loosing value

aethier

AppleMatt

Jul 13, 2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by dguisinger
Personally, I'm not going to use iTunes anymore. After a mishap with Panther erasing both partitions of my drive, I don't feel I owe apple another $0.99 for every song I had. Luckily I only had 10 songs, but I don't think they deserve to get paid for their bugs.
Panther is not even alpha yet, the fact that you would consider installing it on your main system is beyond me. It clearly states the condition of the software and that you should backup, it's not Apple's fault.

Originally posted by dguisinger
I wouldn't mind paying $2 to redownload all purchased music, but paying full price to replace, no way.

This is something I agree with, Apple should have a system to re-download.

Originally posted by dguisinger
Of course I'm a developer. I'm also an experienced beta tester. I have beta tested Windows since Windows 95 OEM SR 2. However normally I wouldn't expect that type of bug during formatting a partition, that it formats another as well. Maybe Disk Utility was messed up, as I did not know I had a blank 4.8GB partition....maybe it just decided that it wanted one and adjusted the size of my other partition and displayed it as if it was the current valid partition map, I dont know. All I did was change the format of the blank partition and bam, both got erased. The closest thing I ever had from MS was a Fat32 bug in a beta of Windows 2000 that caused Windows 2000 installer to erase a Fat32 hard drive.

I seriously doubt the fact you claim you are a developer, but anyone can be a Microsoft beta tester. Anyone with the smallest amount of understanding in computers would know that changing the format of a drive will destroy everything, that includes partition tables. (Except FAT and FAT32 on one drive)

Originally posted by dguisinger
But getting back to the point....what should I backup on a computer? I had a few projects on here, most not so important. My cocoa apps, backed up and I stopped developing them a long time ago. My video projects? too bad, werent that important. My music? never though of it. Shouldn't have had to think of it.

This is a very closed view. As I said, the fact you installed Panther on your main system without a backup is beyond me. However, lets assume all OS's were perfect and never destroyed your data. Not even a full format with zero all data destroyed your data. What happens if your hard-drive fails? What happens if your computer is stolen? Saying you shouldn't have to backup makes it sound like it is Apple's fault, when it is entirely your own.

Originally posted by hvfsl

Also it is very hard to back the music up, since you first need to de-authorize it and then copy it to another disk. However you may not then be able to play it on your Mac. You can't back it up on an ipod ether, because you can't copy it back to your Mac.

The first part is not entirely accurate, but as many people have already pointed it out no doubt, I'll just add that if you make your music folder on your iPod visible...voila you have the ability to copy your music back. There are even programs that will do this for you.

AppleMatt

dguisinger

Jul 13, 2003, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by AppleMatt

I seriously doubt the fact you claim you are a developer, but anyone can be a Microsoft beta tester. Anyone with the smallest amount of understanding in computers would know that changing the format of a drive will destroy everything, that includes partition tables. (Except FAT and FAT32 on one drive)

AppleMatt

You doubt that I am a developer? Check all my .NET threads on MacRumors pointing out why .NET is better than Java.

I have 2 years history with .NET, 10 years with C++, I have worked in Pascal, x86 assembly, Cocoa, Apple Basic, and GW Basic, along with JavaScript, ActionScript, and PHP3 and 4. I have worked with Linux, MacOS, MacOS X, BeOS, OS/2, Windows, and several flavors of DOS and CPM. I have changed partition types many times on my PCs without affecting other existing partitons.

Second, I didn't say anything about formatting my main partition. I said Panther's disk utility said I had a second partition that wasnt being used of 4GB, and I formatted that partition expecting only that partition to be touched (Infact, I locked the Macintosh HD partition first to prevent the utility from changing it, which from what I understand, is the correct way to do it).

Third, this is a personal computer, I would of course backup my XServes (which I own two of). I would not classify Panther as an alpha. It is technically close to feature complete, with only bugs being worked out, according to the latest rumors. That is more of a beta.

cbrantly

Jul 13, 2003, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by dguisinger
Of course I'm a developer. I'm also an experienced beta tester. I have beta tested Windows since Windows 95 OEM SR 2. However normally I wouldn't expect that type of bug during formatting a partition, that it formats another as well. Maybe Disk Utility was messed up, as I did not know I had a blank 4.8GB partition....maybe it just decided that it wanted one and adjusted the size of my other partition and displayed it as if it was the current valid partition map, I dont know. All I did was change the format of the blank partition and bam, both got erased. The closest thing I ever had from MS was a Fat32 bug in a beta of Windows 2000 that caused Windows 2000 installer to erase a Fat32 hard drive.

But getting back to the point....what should I backup on a computer? I had a few projects on here, most not so important. My cocoa apps, backed up and I stopped developing them a long time ago. My video projects? too bad, werent that important. My music? never though of it. Shouldn't have had to think of it.

But are you part of Apple's Developer Connection or did you go get Panther off of LimeWire or something? If you are an experienced mac user or beta tester, you should know that you cannot erase one partition on a drive. Partitions cannot be resized or reformatted without initializing the entire drive. My guess is that Disk Utility even told you that (as it does in Jaguar) and you blindly clicked Continue without even reading it.

adamberti

Jul 13, 2003, 03:01 PM

As others have said, if its $1.49 CDN per song, forget it. I can buy CD's for about $13 usually (A&B sound) It better be $0.99 a song, or I'm taking my business elsewhere.

I was watching the National I think a few weeks back and there was a Toronto Company that was starting a Canadian Music Store online that would be available in the Fall. Anyone know the name of it? It sounded fairly competitive. The good thing was it wasnt tied to a US company that would need to convert dollars. It could set the market price according to Canadian dollars.

dguisinger

Jul 13, 2003, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by cbrantly
But are you part of Apple's Developer Connection or did you go get Panther off of LimeWire or something? If you are an experienced mac user or beta tester, you should know that you cannot erase one partition on a drive. Partitions cannot be resized or reformatted without initializing the entire drive. My guess is that Disk Utility even told you that (as it does in Jaguar) and you blindly clicked Continue without even reading it.

Actually it did, but it didn't say what you say, and the online help is not available during the install process.

I didn't resize any partitions, I just changed the partition format for the small 4GB partition. Disk Utility did say it could not be undone, but without stating the entire drive would be wiped out, I went with the assumption of no-duh, the partition I am working on will be cleaned off. Which is standard operating procedure on most UNIX and intel based machines I may add.

dguisinger

Jul 13, 2003, 03:11 PM

hvfsl

Jul 13, 2003, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by AppleMatt
The first part is not entirely accurate, but as many people have already pointed it out no doubt, I'll just add that if you make your music folder on your iPod visible...voila you have the ability to copy your music back. There are even programs that will do this for you.

AppleMatt

Thanks I did not know about that, I read in my MacWorld mag that you could only copy music to an ipod, not from it, to stop people copying other peoples music.

Phinius

Jul 13, 2003, 04:59 PM

Since software and services have much higher potential gross margins than computer hardware for Apple, an expansion of music sales will enable Apple to decrease the average price of Macs sold to consumers. Apple has already stated previously that the company is willing to sacrifice some gross margins to increase unit volume. Well, without an increase in higher margin service or software that will be very difficult to do since the company has been losing money on sales for most of the fiscal quarters in the last two years from (Apple made a profit in most fiscal quarters from interest on savings).

To illustrate the potential gross margin differences between computer sales and software, Apple has about 28% overall gross margins, Dell has slightly more than 18% overall gross margin on sales and Microsoft has 81%. It's obvious that as Apple rapidly increases sales from fee based software and services that the overall gross margins for the company will rise unless margins are cut somewhere. The most logical place to cut margins is in computer sales since much lower prices on computers should increase unit sales and that will enable Apple to sell more software and services. For every computer that Apple sells there is also now the potential for annually selling a $129 OSX update, a $99 .Mac subscription and songs at 99 cents each. Over the expected ownership of 2-3 years for a computer, that would add increased sales and gross margins for every computer purchase. Neither HP nor Dell has a counter to Apple's advantage in this. Potentially this should enable Apple to match or beat Dell in prices on computers in the near future. Along with lower prices and increased features this should also bring increased marketshare for Apple.

Apple's music store is only available in the U.S. and only to those that use OSX. So, music sales are limited to less than 1/2 of all Mac users. With Mac sales running at about 2.3% of worldwide PC sales, then the expansion of music sales to Windows users will increase the potential customers of the service by 100X from what it is now. Instead of 500,000 sales a week it should be several times that by the end of the year when the service becomes available to Windows users.

Look for Apple to announce lower prices on consumer computers this week in New York and probably another round of cuts in the last quarter of this year just before the Christmas season starts. That could potentially bring the base price of a entry level Mac to $599 or less by the end of the year. Since Apple seems to be moving back into BestBuy in August, these additional 500 stores will also enable Apple to cut prices since the increased volume of sales will spread out Apple's fixed costs over more unit sales.

JD!

Jul 13, 2003, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Freg3000
First off, I'll refrain from making this a personal attack. :)

I understand that my idea is obviously flawed, as pointed out by many already. The connections between developing the Windows iTMS and the international legal situation are almost none, so I see how what I said was wrong.

On the subject of the pricing, especially in Canada, I think it will be $1.49.

P.S. If you would like to quote a post, click the quote button. That will allow you to respond in that forum while quoting a particular post.

Take the critisizing as constructive. Conjecture without forethought becomes incoherent rambling. If you want to blow off steam with a personal attack, knock yourself out! I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. Hey...kidding! C'mon!

Conjecture on pricing is premature. Wherever the dollar has settled in Sept/Oct will dictate an initial price point. Apple and the public will then have to live with the give and take of a fluctuating American buck for a year at least. The price can't keep jacking around and no matter how you slice it, we get it up the wazoo due to our weak dollar. Feel sorry for the Brits with the pound. Those poor souls are screwed regardless!

MasterMac

Jul 13, 2003, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by dguisinger
I didn't resize any partitions, I just changed the partition format for the small 4GB partition. Disk Utility did say it could not be undone, but without stating the entire drive would be wiped out, I went with the assumption of no-duh, the partition I am working on will be cleaned off. Which is standard operating procedure on most UNIX and intel based machines I may add.
Ok well I just tested disk utility in Jaguar and I was able to change the volume format on one partition and it didn't affect the other at all, so either there's a bug in Panther's disk utility, or you accidentally clicked the main drive instead of the partition.

As for the parts about backing up... unless you have absolutely nothing on your hard disk that you care about, or you have some other way of replacing them, then you should always have a backup. Especially when you're a developer and you do testing of beta software and that stuff, you should know better than to not have any backup of any sort. It's not that hard to buy an external HD or something and do a nightly backup of your entire HD or specific folders/files once you're finished for the night... hell you could even do it in the background while you're still doing other things (which I do frequently). I'm sorry, but you have nobody to blame but yourself for losing your music. I myself can't count the number of times I've accidentally deleted a file or messed something up on my computer and had I not had a backup I would have been in deep trouble, but since I do have one I have been able to fix most problems in just a few minutes by doing simple drag and drops from my latest backup.

dguisinger

Jul 13, 2003, 11:24 PM

MasterMac

Jul 13, 2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by dguisinger
The Erase tab was grayed out, the only one I was able to do it through was the Partition tab......and in the Partition tab I had checked Lock Partition from Editing for the existing Macintosh HD partition, so one would figure it wouldn't have let me do accidently do anything to it.

Hmm... well I'm still in Disk Utility and I pressed the Partition tab, and the first thing it told me was to select a single disk in order to set it up (I couldn't have a single partition selected). That should have been a big clue that any change made to it would affect the entire disk, not just the partition ;). And I'm pretty sure that the locking part just keeps you from editing the values that you are able to change (such as disk size, format, and volume name), and not from keeping the disk untouchable at all. Ah well, this should be a good learning experience for those reading this :p

MacCoaster

Jul 13, 2003, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by MasterMac
Ok well I just tested disk utility in Jaguar and I was able to change the volume format on one partition and it didn't affect the other at all, so either there's a bug in Panther's disk utility, or you accidentally clicked the main drive instead of the partition.
How could he have accidentally clicked the main partition. He locked it for God's sake. It is a bug.
As for the parts about backing up... unless you have absolutely nothing on your hard disk that you care about, or you have some other way of replacing them, then you should always have a backup. Especially when you're a developer and you do testing of beta software and that stuff, you should know better than to not have any backup of any sort. It's not that hard to buy an external HD or something and do a nightly backup of your entire HD or specific folders/files once you're finished for the night... hell you could even do it in the background while you're still doing other things (which I do frequently). I'm sorry, but you have nobody to blame but yourself for losing your music. I myself can't count the number of times I've accidentally deleted a file or messed something up on my computer and had I not had a backup I would have been in deep trouble, but since I do have one I have been able to fix most problems in just a few minutes by doing simple drag and drops from my latest backup.
Blah blah blah. So what if he's a developer? He has stated that nothing on his machine was important except the music. I do agree that iTMS should have let him redownload his licensed music. What's so hard about implementing that feature. Not everyone can backup everything all the time, ya know.

MasterMac

Jul 13, 2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by MacCoaster
How could he have accidentally clicked the main partition. He locked it for God's sake. It is a bug.

Blah blah blah. So what if he's a developer? He has stated that nothing on his machine was important except the music. I do agree that iTMS should have let him redownload his licensed music. What's so hard about implementing that feature. Not everyone can backup everything all the time, ya know.

As I already stated above, simply locking it via the disk utility window does not mean you've locked the drive from anything and everything.

My main point about the backup part is that if you have important stuff on your hard disk, even if it's only a small amount of data, and you don't have a backup and it gets lost somehow, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Putting the blame on someone else in that situation is wrong. That's like blaming a company for not replacing a CD you bought from them if it gets scratched up or whatever later for some reason, you just don't do that.

dguisinger

Jul 13, 2003, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by MasterMac
As I already stated above, simply locking it via the disk utility window does not mean you've locked the drive from anything and everything.

My main point about the backup part is that if you have important stuff on your hard disk, even if it's only a small amount of data, and you don't have a backup and it gets lost somehow, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Putting the blame on someone else in that situation is wrong. That's like blaming a company for not replacing a CD you bought from them if it gets scratched up or whatever later for some reason, you just don't do that.

Actually if I scratch or lose a CD, Microsoft will replace it for $5. I never said free replacement, I'd be willing to pay a fraction of it to cover bandwidth.

MacCoaster

Jul 13, 2003, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by MasterMac
As I already stated above, simply locking it via the disk utility window does not mean you've locked the drive from anything and everything.
Ah I must have replied [edit: as in clicked the reply button] before you posted that particular post.

Why shouldn't it mean that I've locked the partition? Isn't that the point?
My main point about the backup part is that if you have important stuff on your hard disk, even if it's only a small amount of data, and you don't have a backup and it gets lost somehow, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Putting the blame on someone else in that situation is wrong. That's like blaming a company for not replacing a CD you bought from them if it gets scratched up or whatever later for some reason, you just don't do that.
No, it was a bug in Apple software that caused him to lose the data. Apple should compensate him. It's like someone buying a surge protector and it didn't live up to it's promise, they will compensate you. I mean, seriously, unless the underlying code to the partitioning software was changed majorly, which I doubt, but please feel free to prove me wrong, it shouldn't have reported that he had a 4 GB partition free to use and screw up later.

Edit: Oh yes, he's even willing to pay a fraction! Apple definitely should do it for free or a minimal fee like Microsoft.

MasterMac

Jul 13, 2003, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by dguisinger
Actually if I scratch or lose a CD, Microsoft will replace it for $5. I never said free replacement, I'd be willing to pay a fraction of it to cover bandwidth.

I can agree to that :p

Edit: And FYI, I just now submitted a request to them via the iTMS requesting just that, functionality to re-download music for the cost of covering the bandwidth :)

MasterMac

Jul 13, 2003, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by MacCoaster
Ah I must have replied before you posted that particular post.

Why shouldn't it mean that I've locked the partition? Isn't that the point?

No, it was a bug in Apple software that caused him to lose the data. Apple should compensate him. It's like someone buying a surge protector and it didn't live up to it's promise, they will compensate you. I mean, seriously, unless the underlying code to the partitioning software was changed majorly, which I doubt, but please feel free to prove me wrong, it shouldn't have reported that he had a 4 GB partition free to use and screw up later.

The option for the lock is in the area enclosed with the volume name, format, and size, and the name of the checkmark is "Lock for editing". If it had said "Lock disk" and had been placed somewhere not directed towards those 3 options, then I would expect it to do what you say it should.

As for the second part, I disagree. He installed a pre-release OS, and that comes with risks. That's why you take precautions like having a backup. Even installing gold-master software has its risks. I haven't read the liscence agreements lately, but I believe there's a part in there saying that the company in question is not responsible for any damages resulting from installing the software (feel free to look it up if you want I'll gladly be proven wrong if I am :p). It was his decision to install the software, not Apples, so it is not their fault and they are not responsible for replacing his lost data.

Edit: spelling corrections

SilvorX

Jul 14, 2003, 05:20 AM

i got a dialog asking me for my apple username/password or whatever as soon as i clicked on "music store" on itunes :S, this hasnt happened yet lol
i think it should be about $1.38/song or so, in canada it's legal to burn audio cd's made from MP3s since each cd/media storage device (such as an mp3 player) have levies for compensation to musicians, some people in canada are thinking "why pay even more if i'm legally allowed to burn cds already?", iTMS needs songs/albums that wont be available to download off the net nor buy in a store, but that's already starting

Squire

Jul 14, 2003, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by SilvorX
i think it should be about $1.38/song or so, in canada it's legal to burn audio cd's made from MP3s since each cd/media storage device (such as an mp3 player) have levies for compensation to musicians, some people in canada are thinking "why pay even more if i'm legally allowed to burn cds already?", iTMS needs songs/albums that wont be available to download off the net nor buy in a store, but that's already starting

That's the first time I've heard that. Very interesting.

Squire

pbooker

Jul 14, 2003, 09:38 AM

i think it should be about $1.38/song or so, in canada it's legal to burn audio cd's made from MP3s since each cd/media storage device (such as an mp3 player) have levies for compensation to musicians, some people in canada are thinking "why pay even more if i'm legally allowed to burn cds already?",

This isn't true - the levy is there because of piracy and an attempt to curb it - but it by no means makes it legal to copy cd's/mp3's that you don't already own.

Docrjm

Jul 14, 2003, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by pbooker
This isn't true - the levy is there because of piracy and an attempt to curb it - but it by no means makes it legal to copy cd's/mp3's that you don't already own.

I accept that that is the reason for the levy. However, as it is already there why should I then pay a further levy for the same material. AS to the cost oniTMS, I believe that it should be 99c. After all music CD's are cheaper in Canada cf the US.

robcj

Jul 15, 2003, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by pbooker
This isn't true - the levy is there because of piracy and an attempt to curb it - but it by no means makes it legal to copy cd's/mp3's that you don't already own.

Actually, the original poster was somewhat correct. Technically, it's a tariff, and it's called the Private Copying Tariff. It's administered by the Canadian Private Copying Collective. The Canadian Copyright Act entitles Canadians to make personal copies of tracks, or substantial portions of tracks, they already own. You are legally entitled to make, for example, a personal compilation disc of music which you already own. The tariff is collected, pooled, and intended to be distributed to artists in lieu of royalties which would have been collected on additional purchased copies of music. It has absolutely nothing to do with piracy.

Having said that, in a philosophical and political context, it has absolutely everything to do with piracy. Although it's intent is to compensate artists for losses due to personal copying, it has instead become a not-so-thinly veiled attempt at recouping losses due to piracy.

Abstract

Jul 15, 2003, 02:23 AM

@The people who are still blitzing the guy about his HD:

He lost some data that he didn't really care about, some photos, and some music. He doesn't really care. He only wants a way to recoup what he lost by suggesting that he should be able to d/l his songs again for little or no cost. That's the point.

Squire

Jul 15, 2003, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by Abstract
@The people who are still blitzing the guy about his HD:

He lost some data that he didn't really care about, some photos, and some music. He doesn't really care. He only wants a way to recoup what he lost by suggesting that he should be able to d/l his songs again for little or no cost. That's the point.

Amen.

Apple would probably suggest that he get a .Mac membership and regularly schedule backups.

Speaking of which, I just checked the .Mac page where it says, "See .Mac pricing in other countries." It's 159 BUCKS CANADIAN!? Which currency converter are they using? Does that mean tunes will be $1.59? Hope not.

Squire

Jagga

Jul 16, 2003, 04:03 PM

After reading Jonathan Seff's article in Macworld, July 2003 issue and this announcement in the Globe & Mail this week, its evidence that Apple isn't just sitting around.But other than missing features such as: order a CD of mixed tracks & artists for yourself or being sent to another user as a gift, or purchasing albums pre-saved on an iPod for someone as a gift, or tracks/albums/artists with arcane names & spellings to be searchd as long as the user came close to it--can all be improvements.

I feel there is something missing and might carry the Apple Music Store as a standard for the next few digital generations. The Following ideas struck me while reading the article. People of older generations are used to buying LPs or .45s or 12". Don't get me wrong I'm 30 yrs old and I mean no disrespect, but quite the contrary. First off the music store should support all great artists of any genre.

However I remember back in 1987 when house music began on "white-Label" 12" records at bargain prices in Starsound (or Tracks) in Toronto. There where so many artist in House or Hip-Hop that are now the godfathers or their genre (ex. Derrick May, Grandmaster Flash). Although mix-tapes are still alive and well as CDs on the black market of New York, cuts of club tunes are nono-existent. I would be extatic to see a new source headings and titles appear