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TheBusDriver
Jun 29, 2007, 08:30 PM
My iPhone won't connect to my encrypted Wifi it will connect to my neighbors unprotected wifi but not mine I put in the pass word and still no dice, also tried putting a $ in front of it but still no good any help appreciated I called apple and they haven't been of help.

Thanks Steve



mkrishnan
Jun 29, 2007, 08:36 PM
EDIT: okay, I won't be mean... Please provide more details, so we can help you. What router do you use? What encryption standard? Do you use MAC filtering? What error do you get when you try to join?

TheBusDriver
Jun 29, 2007, 09:16 PM
EDIT: okay, I won't be mean... Please provide more details, so we can help you. What router do you use? What encryption standard? Do you use MAC filtering? What error do you get when you try to join?

actiontec router, I don't know the encryption standard and I don't know about MAC filtering. It says unable to join network

skubish
Jun 29, 2007, 09:20 PM
actiontec router, I don't know the encryption standard and I don't know about MAC filtering. It says unable to join network
Well if you expect help you need to figure those out.
Go to the router settings and find out what encryption you are running.

You may want to turn off encryption temporary first to confirm you can connect to the router.

rdrr
Jun 29, 2007, 09:54 PM
Just a thought cause I forgot I locked down the mac addresses... and was swearing, then ding... :o

luckystephens
Jun 29, 2007, 10:08 PM
I was able to join my wep encrypted network after a few attempts. The problem I had was that I was typing my hex key into the password field. There is a box to specifically enter your hex key. Hope that helps.

JonboyDC
Jun 29, 2007, 10:41 PM
I was able to join my wep encrypted network after a few attempts. The problem I had was that I was typing my hex key into the password field. There is a box to specifically enter your hex key. Hope that helps.

That's funny, I couldn't log into my wifi until I thought to try the hex key -- the regular password kept getting rejected.

TheBusDriver
Jun 29, 2007, 10:43 PM
That's funny, I couldn't log into my wifi until I thought to try the hex key -- the regular password kept getting rejected.

whats the hex key?

glxyjones
Jun 29, 2007, 11:29 PM
I'm having a similar problem...

It found my network, I typed in my password (WEP 64-bit HEX) and it wasn't rejected. However, the iPhone constantly wants to connect to the EDGE network and not my wi-fi. I constantly see the "E" in the top left of the screen instead of the MAC wi-fi symbol.

When I go to settings it sees my network and says I'm connected. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Maybe I should try retyping the password in, but I don't know how.

Thanks.

marksman
Jun 29, 2007, 11:31 PM
I'm having a similar problem...

It found my network, I typed in my password (WEP 64-bit HEX) and it wasn't rejected. However, the iPhone constantly wants to connect to the EDGE network and not my wi-fi. I constantly see the "E" in the top left of the screen instead of the MAC wi-fi symbol.

When I go to settings it sees my network and says I'm connected. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Maybe I should try retyping the password in, but I don't know how.

Thanks.


I am having the same problem.

I had a problem with the key at first, but when I used the $ on the hex it worked, but my iPhone refuses to use my home wifi network. It is always using the Edge. And I can not figure out why. For about 2 minutes once it used the wifi but that is it.

sportseye@mac.c
Jun 30, 2007, 07:29 AM
That's funny, I couldn't log into my wifi until I thought to try the hex key -- the regular password kept getting rejected.

This was the difference for me! Thanks!

seamuskrat
Jun 30, 2007, 08:52 AM
Actiontec Verizon Fios here and same issue. i do use WEP and no go.

I use the key id 10 digits. In the Actiontec I have no means to get the longer hash id.

But I am sure its an issue with the router, but sucks all the same.

My iPhone won't connect to my encrypted Wifi it will connect to my neighbors unprotected wifi but not mine I put in the pass word and still no dice, also tried putting a $ in front of it but still no good any help appreciated I called apple and they haven't been of help.

Thanks Steve

TheBusDriver
Jun 30, 2007, 01:02 PM
ok got it to connect to the Wifi but now it says server not found when i try to go anywhere.

iprincess
Jun 30, 2007, 01:05 PM
make sure you are entering the password correctly. unfortunately it does not tell you if you enter the wrong password. i had trouble last night i had to enter a long hex code and it was a challenge to get it entered correctly. what i did notice is that once the password is entered correctly, the wifi icon shows up top but also the spinning circle next to the wifi setting does not spin. when the password is wrong, it sits there and spins. try to keep re-entering your password. use your pinky if you have to so you can be really precise. it's annoying but once it's in you are done. good luck!

iprincess
Jun 30, 2007, 01:05 PM
ok got it to connect to the Wifi but now it says server not found when i try to go anywhere.

that means it's the wrong password

TheBusDriver
Jun 30, 2007, 01:12 PM
that means it's the wrong password

I'll check that.

TheBusDriver
Jun 30, 2007, 01:15 PM
that means it's the wrong password

I love you, Thanks for all the help its working now. After a router refresh putting it in the hex key and makeing the password right.:D

iPhone yaaaaaa!:p :apple:

Steve

Rangerdeputy
Jun 30, 2007, 01:20 PM
I do not have a password for my router and it still says server not found whenever I try to browse anywhere.

I have a netgear router I bought a few weeks ago from best buy. Works great for everything else.

daveporter
Jun 30, 2007, 01:38 PM
I also had a problem getting my iPhone to see my Wi-Fi network. Believe it or not, the problem is that the brand new, high tech, flagship Apple iPhone DOES NOT SUPPORT 802.11n!!!!!

See my post here:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=322733

Dave

sprocket003
Jun 30, 2007, 01:52 PM
I have no encryption at all at home but iPhone doesn't even see ANY networks that are active nearby. Wifi worked for a bit yesterday but now can't see a thing. I have still found no solution and it seems the iPhone tech support is closed.

My About settings show that Wifi has a MAC address but it simply shows no list of available networks. Any solutions?

Flowbee
Jun 30, 2007, 01:58 PM
Very strange. I bought two phones. My wife's connected to our Airport Express right away, no problems. Mine won't connect. I've tried entering the regular password and the hex password. No love. I'm currently restoring my iPhone software and will try again.

plumbingandtech
Jun 30, 2007, 02:03 PM
since for some strange reasons they keep your password as **** when you type it is VERY EASY to make a mistake.

I had to type mine twice and the 2nd time i was VERY careful.

they should change this to plain text.

mkrishnan
Jun 30, 2007, 03:05 PM
since for some strange reasons they keep your password as **** when you type it is VERY EASY to make a mistake.

The worst example of this is when WAP sites expect you to enter an alphanumeric password, using T9 / predictive input on a cell, without seeing what you're typing. Yeah, that'll work out great. :rolleyes:

tribe3
Jun 30, 2007, 03:16 PM
I'm having a similar problem...

It found my network, I typed in my password (WEP 64-bit HEX) and it wasn't rejected. However, the iPhone constantly wants to connect to the EDGE network and not my wi-fi. I constantly see the "E" in the top left of the screen instead of the MAC wi-fi symbol.

When I go to settings it sees my network and says I'm connected. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. Maybe I should try retyping the password in, but I don't know how.

Thanks.

Same here. An "E" and not the Airport "fan". I can send emails from the .mac account; Internet is so slow that it's impossible.; youtube says that EDGE failed or "movie can not be played.

I have an Airport extreme to a cable modem and 6 computers (5 Macs and 1 peecee) connected wireless. My connection speed on the computers is FAST (9300kbps!!)

EDIT: Now it's connected to wi-fi but it can't open page or send emails because "It cannot connect to the server"

Anyone in the same situation?

seany916
Jun 30, 2007, 03:38 PM
I enter my WEP password, the E for Edge turns into the WiFi fan, then when I try to connect it to anything, it switches back to Edge even though it accepts the WEP password. Haven't tried it in any free WiFi networks yet though.

2allbeefpatties
Jul 1, 2007, 10:32 PM
Hey newbie first post here! I was able to connect to my wifi at first but then it stopped working after I accidently went into airplane mode. Even after leaving airplane mode, I could only get edge. So I tried going in an out of that mode a few times including waiting the 10 seconds that is suggested in the manual but I could never get back onto wifi. It would show my wifi was connected in the settings menu but outside of that I would only have edge. The fix for me was:
Settings->General->Reset->Reset Network Settings

...no problems since, hope this helps.

eddietr
Jul 1, 2007, 10:41 PM
For me, I didn't want to enter the long hex code into the popup, so I went to the wifi option under settings instead. There I could use the ascii code instead.

Also, when you are entering a hidden password on the iphone, it helps to hold down each key that you touch until you see and confirm the exploded key. If you have the wrong key pressed, you can move to the correct one before you let go. Makes entering hidden passwords on websites and such totally foolproof.

Hope that helps.

Sal510
Jul 2, 2007, 12:04 AM
Wow I'm super irritated right now!

OKay, so I can connect to all WiFi's The one @ work the one at the Mexican restaurant but i can't connect at my own house!?!? WTF? I've RESET the Network Stting and Power Cycled it plenty of times and it hasn't worked! It connected once yesterday for a few seconds then it dropped me. I'm sure I've typed the correct NetKey... I don't know what to do AHHHHH!!!!! :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

brasscat
Jul 2, 2007, 12:10 AM
Wow I'm super irritated right now!

OKay, so I can connect to all WiFi's The one @ work the one at the Mexican restaurant but i can't connect at my own house!?!? WTF? I've RESET the Network Stting and Power Cycled it plenty of times and it hasn't worked! It connected once yesterday for a few seconds then it dropped me. I'm sure I've typed the correct NetKey... I don't know what to do AHHHHH!!!!! :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Just to make sure the bases are covered...

1) make sure you're assigning the correct authentication method (PKI, WEP, etc) in your iPhone...

2) make sure you're DHCP on your wireless router has enough range to add your device (and you're not overlapping IPs with another computer).

3) make sure your router isn't also filtering on MAC addresses

4) make sure you're using your iPhone in an area where you're getting a signal strength more than 1 or 2 bars.

5) try cold rebooting your router (or clearing it's cache via another method).

6) try hard resetting your iPhone.


Just a few suggestions --- good luck!

Sal510
Jul 2, 2007, 12:46 AM
Ok Now I got it to work. Instead of typing in the password under "WEP Password", I clicked on WEP Password and took me to Security I Selected "WEP hex or ASCII" instead of "WEP Password" pressed the "Enter Password" button on the top left hand corner and typed my password under Security now "WEP hex ASCII" and VOILA it worked!

Than watched The Simpsons Clips from YouTube and took my headache away!

::Deep Sigh::


Thanks for your help!

Hope this helps someone out there.

DreaminDirector
Jul 2, 2007, 01:43 AM
I'm having the same problem with the WiFi.

I'm using a netgear wireless router with 128bit WEP encryption. I can connect and surf the net for about 10 seconds, then it seems the phone's connection stalls out and I just get the spinning thing until it times out and says there's no server.

What could be the problem with everyone having so much trouble with the WiFi?

brasscat
Jul 2, 2007, 01:46 AM
I'm having the same problem with the WiFi.

I'm using a netgear wireless router with 128bit WEP encryption. I can connect and surf the net for about 10 seconds, then it seems the phone's connection stalls out and I just get the spinning thing until it times out and says there's no server.

What could be the problem with everyone having so much trouble with the WiFi?

Only connect for 10 seconds? Sounds like you may have a conflicting IP. iPhone won't tell you if you're conflicting, it'll just stop working.

DreaminDirector
Jul 2, 2007, 01:56 AM
Only connect for 10 seconds? Sounds like you may have a conflicting IP. iPhone won't tell you if you're conflicting, it'll just stop working.

i did notice that it assigns (or is assigned) the IP 192.168.0.9 even through I have only 4 other things connected to the router. What's the solution? Assigning an IP for the iPhone in the router and manual set it in the phone as well?

brasscat
Jul 2, 2007, 02:01 AM
i did notice that it assigns (or is assigned) the IP 192.168.0.9 even through I have only 4 other things connected to the router. What's the solution? Assigning an IP for the iPhone in the router and manual set it in the phone as well?

You should be able to manually set your IP just outside your DHCP IP range and it should work. Like 192.168.0.22 or something. OR just turn off all your other devices to test this theory.

DreaminDirector
Jul 2, 2007, 02:15 AM
You should be able to manually set your IP just outside your DHCP IP range and it should work. Like 192.168.0.22 or something. OR just turn off all your other devices to test this theory.

holy crap, that worked! Thank you Brasscat! I just set my iphone's IP outside the DHCP range and it worked. You rule!

This is why I love the macrumors community. Someone always as a answer to everything.

brasscat
Jul 2, 2007, 02:21 AM
Glad I could help.... however ---

Conflicting DHCP really should never happen if all devices on your network were setup with automatic addressing. If your devices are all set to automatic addressing (via DHCP), then it's likely someone is scamming your wifi signal. If you have an open wifi network, then I blame your neighbor for the problem in the first place!

Anyway, have fun!:)

djo01
Jul 2, 2007, 02:23 PM
I enter my WEP password, the E for Edge turns into the WiFi fan, then when I try to connect it to anything, it switches back to Edge even though it accepts the WEP password. Haven't tried it in any free WiFi networks yet though.

I had the same problem until I noticed the problem in the iPhone WIFI settings. My wireless router uses a WEP Hex Password. I was trying to access the router with a WEP Password (not Hex). So what I did is I typed my router password in my iPhone in the WEP Hex field and it join my router network. Now it chooses WIFI over EDGE. Hope this helps.

kman34
Jul 2, 2007, 03:27 PM
Having problem with a PUBLIC WIFI area with no password...

My wife works at a hospital with a public, free wifi, with no password...she has not been able to access it at all.

I went up with my IPHONE and had no problem at all...I checked to make sure her setting were the same as mine (they were)...still her phone would just spin & spin until it times out (while mine is surfing away).

Any ideas or troubleshooting that I haven't tried yet?

Thanks in advance!

kman34
Jul 2, 2007, 05:35 PM
anything?

missing
Jul 3, 2007, 12:48 AM
I got my wife's to connect to my Airport Extreme N network fine after entering the password like normal. My iPhone shows WI-FI is greyed out. Any help here? Thanks.

brasscat
Jul 3, 2007, 12:51 AM
I've read that if a wifi is setup incorrectly, best course of action is to "forget it" (a setting in wifi) and start over. Try that.

kman34
Jul 3, 2007, 10:08 AM
I tried "starting over" and hers still timed out...I even tried accessing the Edge network, but it was yesterday when the Edge was down.

I'll try again later today and see if anything changes...

Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated!

GnarleyMarley
Jul 3, 2007, 10:32 AM
Couldn't connect to my home network all weekend. Finally disabled WEP and my wifi is working fine on the iPhone.

kman34
Jul 3, 2007, 03:49 PM
I did a hard reset on wife's IPhone, and that did the trick! Her wifi is working fine now...

hateiphonewifi
Jul 3, 2007, 11:41 PM
My iphone connected with no problems to my apple extreme when I first got it. Then I connected to my other Belkin wireless router and it was not working. I found some advice that said to try some DNS servers and this helped. Now connecting back to the apple extreme will not work and I have tried everything from the DNS to putting a $ in front of the password. My Powerbook switches back and forth to a ton of different networks with no problems so how come they couldn't do this with the iPhone? There is obviously a problem that Apple needs to address. And EDGE sucks for internet.

imbmc
Jul 4, 2007, 09:34 AM
I enter my WEP password, the E for Edge turns into the WiFi fan, then when I try to connect it to anything, it switches back to Edge even though it accepts the WEP password. Haven't tried it in any free WiFi networks yet though.

This is my first post (anywhere), so I hope I'm on target here.
I am having the same problem connecting to my 1st gen airport. The iPhone says it is connected and I get he airport icon for about a minute and then it returns to using the Edge connection. I entered my WEP password and set the DNS to the same settings as the information for my router. I checked the IP address on the iPhone and it appears to be a "self assigned" address (169.xxx.xxx.xxx). I will try to connect to a free hot spot later today and see what kind of results I get then. :confused:

brasscat
Jul 4, 2007, 09:38 AM
This is my first post (anywhere), so I hope I'm on target here.
I am having the same problem connecting to my 1st gen airport. The iPhone says it is connected and I get he airport icon for about a minute and then it returns to using the Edge connection. I entered my WEP password and set the DNS to the same settings as the information for my router. I checked the IP address on the iPhone and it appears to be a "self assigned" address (169.xxx.xxx.xxx). I will try to connect to a free hot spot later today and see what kind of results I get then. :confused:

You may have an IP conflict (the iPhone won't tell you there's a conflict, just won't work after about a minute). Or you may need to adjust your airport settings... might be too restrictive for your phone to get a clean ip / dns settings. Also, hard-resetting seems to help some with network issues (home+sleep buttons). Good Luck!

pugnut
Jul 8, 2007, 10:32 PM
Tried for a day or so, I have FIOS and was being told it was a specific Verizon problme, however that was crap, becuase this worked. Thanks. I have to beleive this is the issue with most


Ok Now I got it to work. Instead of typing in the password under "WEP Password", I clicked on WEP Password and took me to Security I Selected "WEP hex or ASCII" instead of "WEP Password" pressed the "Enter Password" button on the top left hand corner and typed my password under Security now "WEP hex ASCII" and VOILA it worked!

Than watched The Simpsons Clips from YouTube and took my headache away!

::Deep Sigh::


Thanks for your help!

Hope this helps someone out there.

billfarm
Jul 20, 2007, 12:05 AM
Wifi (thru actiontec/quest router) gives my iphone an ip address, dns servers, 3 bars, a route and even pings from another ip address on the wireless network and still no network connection apparent in the apps.

Being out in the country, I run my wifi with no password at all.

I can't figure it out. The Edge network works fine, a heck of a lot faster than I thought but no wifi. I tried other free wifi networks with the same result - get an ip address assigned and no connectivity with wifi turned on.

So I have reset the network settings but not the whole thing.
Also I'm having sync problems but that is a whole other...

DrVest
Jul 20, 2007, 08:30 AM
I'm about to throw this phone against the wall.

I've tried everything recommended here and I still can't get the phone to choose WIFI over EDGE. Both at home and the office.

At home I have no security whatsoever and it still chooses EDGE even though my condo is the lower level where I get zero bars. I was standing the same room as my router and still nothing. It was working fine for days and then just quit. I tried "renew lease", reset my router, and "forget network". The funny thing is that I can connect to a neighbors network and it works just fine. Sure I could piggyback off of him but that's not how it should be.

At the office, it accepts my password, says I'm connected to the network, but EDGE is still being chosen. I have full bars on my phone and my laptop connects just fine. I'm the only one here with the phone and it sucks azz when someone wants me to show it off and it falls on its face.

nacengineer
Sep 11, 2007, 08:54 PM
I stumbled across this thread after resetting my passwords. Just making my router more secure etc as I live in a congested neighboorhood.

I am using an Apple Airport Extreme basestation with RDS to an Airport Express unit. I am using WPA encryption of course because this is a MUCH more secure wireless method. You might remember WEP being abandoned years ago in the lead up to the Winter Olympics because of this insecurity.

If you are stuck in WEP hell then you'll have to deal with the hexadecimal mess. Remember (going off of memory here) hex only takes alpha number A-F and numbers 1-8 so watch what you enter as your password!! If you are erroring out in the password phase its more than likely a HEX issue or an issue with your router config or hardware. Especially so if your iPhone's wireless works fine off of other networks. 'Nuf said.

OK so I was having problems all of a sudden connecting to the wireless network. I had no problem before when my password was 8 character (WPA) but now I went to a 20 some alphanumeric password. iPhone wouldn't connect. Interesting that my shorter 8 digit password worked fine... so I'm just theorizing that there must be a threshold on this. If I was better at binary I could probably tell you a definate on this but I'm guessing it's probably 16 characters. I changed the password to a 15 character password (BTW this was an arbitrary number that popped into my head) and lo' and behold it worked fine. This is most likely a binary thing. So try shortening your password and see how that goes. It should be noted that I've tried connecting to a long password network at a friends and had the same problem. Didn't feel like troubleshooting it as their network sucked and I didn't want them blaming everything on me when all I did was tweak one little thing...

Also as a side note I noticed some of you were complaining about the phone not connecting to wireless... and staying on Edge. Personally I notice mine disconnects from wireless when not needed. Makes sense if you're trying to prevent the battery draining wireless from killing the phone. Smart move on Apple's part IMHO.

But if the phone continually stays on Edge given some of the replies I read I wonder if the problem isn't on the router side. (While this is probably a firware or software problems the though occurred.) The problem might be packet collision. Have you tried tweaking the channel of your router? Remember 1, 6, & 11 are main channels. The other ones are in between those. (Another reason for Net Neutrality anyone?). Chances are you might have the defualt settings and so does your neighbor... his router might be kicking the dust out of yours. Most people unwisely don't change this... or their default password... you might want to change that too! :)

Hope this helps!

Rowen23
Mar 8, 2008, 02:17 AM
My iPhone won't connect to my encrypted Wifi it will connect to my neighbors unprotected wifi but not mine I put in the pass word and still no dice, also tried putting a $ in front of it but still no good any help appreciated I called apple and they haven't been of help.

Thanks Steve

So after a few annoying minutes with my iPhone being unable to reconnect to my NetGear Wireless router, I had a "D'oh" moment and just power cycled the router. The iPhone connected to it on the first attempt once it was back up. Remember your Windows Networking basics - if at first you don't fix it, reboot it.

atomicparker
Mar 8, 2008, 08:45 PM
I know this problem has been addressed in countless ways since it came up over the past year, but I have to say after trying several ways to fix 'connected but not really due to DNS problems' wifi, only one seems to work, and that one is very temporary.

To fix my home wifi issue (it seems to work more reliably elsewhere, but still flakey sometimes) I change my IP manually to something out of the DHCP range. Other methods, such as using WEP and a Hex password, using only one DNS, using OpenDNS, rebooting everything a billion times, using no encryption on the router, using WPA on the router etc don't work at all. And the IP change only works until the phone goes back into 'sleep' mode. Pretty annoying but livable I guess...do you think this will ever get fixed? Is the problem limited to unlocked phones? You'd think it would be something fixable if every other device on my home network works fine. PC laptop, iMac, Wii, PS3, PSP, DS... But not the iPhone :(

Any other ideas to possibly fix? I'm not holding out much hope at this point, but if I get a reply that helps I'd be thrilled.

nm8rdave
Jan 7, 2010, 01:27 AM
I've read so many reports of this happening to other iPhone owners and have read hundreds of fixes. None seem to work. I have reset, erased and restored, manually set DNS IP and lots more. Nothing seems to work. The phone will locate and acknowledge WiFi wherever I go, but when I try to connect I get a pop up that states "Unable to join the network [whatever the network is called]" with a Dismiss button at the bottom. I even went to the Apple Store and they tried to get it up and running with no success. They told me I could back up the phone and try a special DNS reset, which was kind of hard to do, if I recall. I can't really remember how the guy said to do it. Again, I cannot access any WiFi at home or anywhere and this just happened suddenly. Any new ideas as to what I might do to get this thing using WiFi again? I'm game to try anything I haven't already tried.

Dave

FT Chief
Apr 10, 2011, 09:03 PM
I had the same issue (verizon iphone4)... Use other and add your network manually... That's what worked for me.

engr.fawad
Jul 4, 2011, 05:02 AM
my iphone is not connecting with the laptop windows 7 adhoc wirelss network. it says connection not supported. what is the problem.




Wi-Fi & Wi-Fi Networking, Wi-Fi Standards (http://www.enggpedia.com/computer-engineering-encyclopedia/dictionary/mobile-networks/1706-wi-fi-a-wi-fi-networking-wi-fi-standards)
http://www.daenotes.com

rocketboy66
Aug 18, 2011, 06:54 AM
I had the same problem. The wifi network appears on the iPhone, and it claims to be connected, but cannot be used as the iPhone doesn't get allocated a valid IP address on the network. I have an iPhone 4 and an extreme base station. After many resets and following suggestions on various forums, nothing worked.
It appears that the problem is that the Airport Extreme is failing to correctly allocate a private IP address to the iPhone using DHCP - an automated connection protocol. No idea why this isn't working, it ought to be straight forward - possibly a bug in the latest iPhone iOS?
The way I solved it was to use the Airport Utility to change the connection setting on the airport Extreme from automatic allocation of IP addresses, to only allocating a range of IP addresses from 2 to 200.
On the iPhone I then change from DHCP to Manual and set the IP address to xxx.xxx.xxx.201 (where the x's are the private IP address range chosen by Airport Utility). If needed, another device could be set to 202 etc.
All very ugly, sorry, but at least it works if nothing else does. Best of luck. I hope Apple finds out why it is happening and fixes it, it seems a lot of people are also struggling with this.