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MacRumors
Jul 2, 2007, 11:46 AM
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Apple has posted (http://www.apple.com/support/iphone/service/battery/) an iPhone Battery Replacement FAQ and policy.

The replacement program costs $79 plus $6.95 in shipping and takes three business days for service. All daya will be cleared from your phone so it is important to sync your iPhone with iTunes prior to service.



Rychiar
Jul 2, 2007, 11:55 AM
that **** is crazy. this is gonna make me miss verizon. my battery starts gettin old and i just walk into my mall, they swap a new one for free and im set

graymccarty
Jul 2, 2007, 11:57 AM
If you have 'applications' on your phone, do they get cleared as welll?

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 12:02 PM
Apple WILL also provide a loaner iPhone which assumes your telephone number and looks and behaves exactly like your own iPhone after one sync with your computer) while your phone is being serviced:

http://www.apple.com/support/iphone/service/faq/#faq11

All of these questions are also answered here, for reference:

http://ipodbatteryfaq.com/#iphone (Disclaimer: this is my web site)

Anyone complaining about the battery needs to remember that the iPod has been this way for four years, and it's not as if it needs to be replaced frequently.

Further, the phone WOULD be bigger if it had the mechanisms to allow for a user accessible battery, even if by only a couple of millimeters, and the battery would also probably be smaller (equating to lower capacity and less life). This is because the battery would need to be segregated from other components and so on.

Having the iPod sealed was an engineering decision, and it's the same with iPhone.

Squonk
Jul 2, 2007, 12:04 PM
that **** is crazy. this is gonna make me miss verizon. my battery starts gettin old and i just walk into my mall, they swap a new one for free and im set

I hear you! That phone insurance is really nice! Sprint replaced my wifes 2 year old phone that was falling apart with a brand new one and threw in another wall charger too.

I like Apple stuff, but I just don't think I'm willing to pop for 500/600 for one of these.

Wasn't there some talk out there of battery swaps being able to be done in Apple stores? Or something about loaner phones during service?

[EDIT: Thanks David for this information...]

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 12:04 PM
If you have 'applications' on your phone, do they get cleared as welll?

How would you have any applications on your phone?

(And the answer is, since they don't return your iPhone, yes, everything gets cleared. But since everything is synced with iTunes, when you get the replacement phone back, one sync and you're done. "What??? They don't even return my iPhone??" you say? No, they return a factory-tested "refurbished" iPhone in a completely new enclosure and a new battery, with its own factory 90-day service warranty. Just exactly the way it has been with iPod since November of 2003.)

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 12:05 PM
I hear you! That phone insurance is really nice! Sprint replaced my wifes 2 year old phone that was falling apart with a brand new one and threw in another wall charger too.

I like Apple stuff, but I just don't think I'm willing to pop for 500/600 for one of these.

Wasn't there some talk out there of battery swaps being able to be done in Apple stores? Or something about loaner phones during service?

Yes. Read my above post. It's all online, even though all of the articles about the iPhone battery seem to ignore it. Some are even saying that once the battery dies, you have no choice but to get a new iPhone. It's like the "iPod's Dirty Secret" crap all over again.

krimedog
Jul 2, 2007, 12:06 PM
I've replaced 3-4 batteries myself in an iPod for <$20. I'd be shocked to learn we can't obtain a battery off eBay when the replacement is necessary.

3 business days is just silly. I'm going to crack it open and change it myself.

Anyone agree/disagree?

bignumbers
Jul 2, 2007, 12:07 PM
If you have 'applications' on your phone, do they get cleared as welll?

Since there's no way (yet) to load "applications" onto the iPhone, this is a somewhat imaginary question.

But it's safe to assume the phone comes back to you essentially in factory-new state.

Hopefully iTunes will eventually handle backup of any user-created data, similar to how Missing Sync does this with my Treo (retired three days ago). Just sync with the factory-reset unit and everything is reinstalled.

If you load anything onto the iPhone's disk mode (which doesn't exist yet of course), I would not anticipate that to be backed up by iTunes. That's disk data, up to the user to back up.

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 12:10 PM
I've replaced 3-4 batteries myself in an iPod for <$20. I'd be shocked to learn we can't obtain a battery off eBay when the replacement is necessary.

3 business days is just silly. I'm going to crack it open and change it myself.

Anyone agree/disagree?

Disagree.

If you're so inclined and are capable, sure, crack it open. But it looks a lot more difficult than iPods from the disassemblies I've seen so far, for what it's worth.

Since Apple provides a loaner iPhone (http://www.apple.com/support/iphone/service/faq/#faq11) that will essentially become your own phone with one sync while yours is in for service, I don't see it being an issue for the very infrequent occurrence of replacing the battery.

bignumbers
Jul 2, 2007, 12:13 PM
I've replaced 3-4 batteries myself in an iPod for <$20. I'd be shocked to learn we can't obtain a battery off eBay when the replacement is necessary.

3 business days is just silly. I'm going to crack it open and change it myself.

Anyone agree/disagree?

Yep. I'll bet we'll have iPhone replacement batteries available online within a few weeks (or less if it's a simple stock battery).

If the installed battery lasts 18 months, I'm happy, and have no real complaint about either the $80 Apple fix or the $20 self-install if I feel adventurous.

I'm definitely of the camp that a non-replacable battery is better since it reduces the size of the unit.

Plus, anytime I carried my Treo around without a carrying case the battery door would fall off, and occasionally the battery would fly out too.

Sideonecincy
Jul 2, 2007, 12:17 PM
I dont think this is that crazy...my razr battery costs $50 from verizon.

I am just getting sick of hearing "dude, wait 3 years, the iphone will be $50 w/ service contract"...dumb people

Ubuntu
Jul 2, 2007, 12:36 PM
I'd love to see the fanboys defend this one. It's pathetic to the level that Apple announces it after launch.

Unless it was posted before, but it seems now.

arn
Jul 2, 2007, 12:39 PM
I'd love to see the fanboys defend this one. It's pathetic to the level that Apple announces it after launch.

Unless it was posted before, but it seems now.

Defend what? Is it a surprise that Apple is offering a battery replacement program? They have an ipod one.

arn

plumbingandtech
Jul 2, 2007, 12:45 PM
I'd love to see the fanboys defend this one. It's pathetic to the level that Apple announces it after launch.

Unless it was posted before, but it seems now.

Defend the fact that if you do not want to do the service yourself you pay apple $90 for a whole super long lasting battery and service and shipping?

Sure.

Things in life cost money.

Unless one believes everything in life should be free and in beer and nuts or whatever the credo is for less then user friendly OSs like linux.

Multimedia
Jul 2, 2007, 12:45 PM
That is a very high price. Does anyone know what mAh rating the iPhone battery has and if it's Lithium Polymer or not?

Maxx Power
Jul 2, 2007, 12:48 PM
Some money making tactic.

Darkroom
Jul 2, 2007, 12:48 PM
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?!!! you can spend $600+TAX on an iPhone that requires a monthly service rate, and THEN you complain about this? would you rather buy a new iphone when your battery dies?

and it's called a LANDLINE by the way... *snap*

plumbingandtech
Jul 2, 2007, 12:49 PM
That is a very high price. Does anyone know what mAh rating the iPhone battery has and if it's Lithium Polymer or not?

If as mentioned razor batteries cost $50 (and I bet one has to do self service) I really don't think this is much worse considering the longer it lasts.)

But I bet there will be clone batteries for $29... only problem is opening it up yourself.

I have opened a mac mini to add ram. I have been thru HELL :D

I'll pay the extra fee.

macklos
Jul 2, 2007, 12:49 PM
isn't there an apple care protection plan available for the iphone as there is for all other apple hardware?

JSmoove05
Jul 2, 2007, 12:53 PM
Ok so AFTER we spend out 500+ tax and 600+tax which is alot to begin with. They now tell us that the batter replacement is gong to cost us 80 dollars + this is ridculous. Apple is trying to milk its customers for everything its worth. The phone itself is overprice for what it can do right now and they wanna charge nearly 20% of phone price for a battery replacement. This is seriously making consider switching back to old my carrier.

G4scott
Jul 2, 2007, 12:53 PM
My razr has a replaceable battery, but I'll tell you what, whenever I open up the battery cover to get the memory card out, the whole compartment is full of dust and dirt. I would honestly have a sealed battery that requires some disassembly or service to repair than have to worry about all this crap getting into my phone and ruining it.

Also, whenever I see a razr, or any other phone for that matter, hit the ground, it always breaks into no less than 4 pieces. I've seen this happen dozens of times on campus.

If I had the $$$, I'd prefer an iPhone, but for now, I have to be careful not to drop my phone, and I'll clean it out every two weeks or so.

slffl
Jul 2, 2007, 12:55 PM
Negative for the iPhone Rental Program!

I already need to send in my iPhone for repair, and no way am I paying for a rental! That should be provided, or at least a cheap loaner phone.

BKF
Jul 2, 2007, 12:56 PM
It would have been nice if Apple had bit the bullet on this and made the battery replacement so inexpensive that it would be a non-issue. Even if the company lost a little money on it, it would be a big reassurance to people on the fence about dropping $500/$600 on a phone, and it would have clammed up a lot of critics quite nicely. A bit of missed opportunity here, I think.

ajhill
Jul 2, 2007, 12:58 PM
I've replaced 3-4 batteries myself in an iPod for <$20. I'd be shocked to learn we can't obtain a battery off eBay when the replacement is necessary.

3 business days is just silly. I'm going to crack it open and change it myself.

Anyone agree/disagree?


Yes, there are kits for under $20 to replace iPod batteries, including the tools to crack the case.

More importantly, if I can change the subject, my iPhone has been unable to connect to the EDGE Network for the last hour. No google maps, no safari, no stock quotes, nothing?

Anyone else having trouble with EDGE today? I'm in Los Angeles.

slffl
Jul 2, 2007, 12:58 PM
I'd love to see the fanboys defend this one. It's pathetic to the level that Apple announces it after launch.

Unless it was posted before, but it seems now.

So a person is a 'fanboy' if they see no problem with this? Well then, you're an anti-Apple zealot for thinking there is a problem with it.

I'm fine with the price of the battery replacement.

Maxx Power
Jul 2, 2007, 01:00 PM
That is a very high price. Does anyone know what mAh rating the iPhone battery has and if it's Lithium Polymer or not?

It is Li-Ion Polymer, it says so on the back of it. As for the mAh rating, it looks like its a bit bigger but thinner than a standard 3700 mAH common to the cellphone market, so judging from its size, maybe around 5000 mAH.

Which, considering its not even manufacturered to be in a replaceable package (raw battery with solder leads), Apple is charging a lot, once again, for a battery.

I suppose I know who this iPhone is targeted toward - rich people.

Rooskibar03
Jul 2, 2007, 01:00 PM
Wait just a friggen minute.

Does this mean if the battery in my brand new iPhone is bad and will not hold a charge from day 1, I'm out $86 bucks?

WTF

Headed to Apple Store right now.

NevadaJack
Jul 2, 2007, 01:03 PM
isn't there an apple care protection plan available for the iphone as there is for all other apple hardware?

Will be available in July and will include the battery. $69 for the additional year of warranty. Check the Warranty tab on the iPhone site.

For those thinking of "popping the lid" and doing it on their own with a battery from eBay I just laugh. Take a look at Think Secret and the disassembly of the iPhone...that should make $80 look pretty good. I understand that it will last from 300-400 charges.

SirOmega
Jul 2, 2007, 01:04 PM
I suppose I know who this iPhone is targeted toward - rich people.

You got any other insightful comments?

Seriously, what'll happen in a year is that I'll pay $86 or whatever for the battery replacement and then it'll last for another year, then I'll sell the phone to someone I know for cheap ($200), they'll pay for the battery replacement and have a cheap iPhone. I'll buy a new iPhone and be OK.

macenforcer
Jul 2, 2007, 01:07 PM
LAME. Biggest negative about apple is no user replaceable batteries. COME ON APPLE! Enough is enough.

Yankees 4 Life
Jul 2, 2007, 01:09 PM
Will be available in July and will include the battery. $69 for the additional year of warranty. Check the Warranty tab on the iPhone site.

For those thinking of "popping the lid" and doing it on their own with a battery from eBay I just laugh. Take a look at Think Secret and the disassembly of the iPhone...that should make $80 look pretty good. I understand that it will last from 300-400 charges.

i will most definitely buy that plan when it comes out in mid july

CormacMaclaggan
Jul 2, 2007, 01:11 PM
Yeah the Battery Life is pretty bogus its noon and my battery is half dead...
maybe im using it to much hmmmmm:confused:

ajhill
Jul 2, 2007, 01:14 PM
Yes, there are kits for under $20 to replace iPod batteries, including the tools to crack the case.

My iPhone has been unable to connect to the EDGE Network for the last hour. No google maps, no safari (cannot find the server), no stock quotes, (haven't set up the visual voicemail yet but would this be down too?) nothing?

Anyone else having trouble with EDGE today? I'm in Los Angeles.

Maxx Power
Jul 2, 2007, 01:17 PM
You got any other insightful comments?

Seriously, what'll happen in a year is that I'll pay $86 or whatever for the battery replacement and then it'll last for another year, then I'll sell the phone to someone I know for cheap ($200), they'll pay for the battery replacement and have a cheap iPhone. I'll buy a new iPhone and be OK.

You are expecting your costs to trickle down the market, along with what you perceive as a bargain ?

If the iPhone still works as new, you might be able to get something for it. Plus if Apple doesn't release any updated versions that might spoil your resale value.

CormacMaclaggan
Jul 2, 2007, 01:17 PM
Yes, there are kits for under $20 to replace iPod batteries, including the tools to crack the case.

My iPhone has been unable to connect to the EDGE Network for the last hour. No google maps, no safari (cannot find the server), no stock quotes, (haven't set up the visual voicemail yet but would this be down too?) nothing?

Anyone else having trouble with EDGE today? I'm in Los Angeles.



Mine occasionally says cannot find edge but it usually finds it in a few seconds. I'm in Salt Lake

WestonHarvey1
Jul 2, 2007, 01:24 PM
Ok so AFTER we spend out 500+ tax and 600+tax which is alot to begin with. They now tell us that the batter replacement is gong to cost us 80 dollars + this is ridculous. Apple is trying to milk its customers for everything its worth. The phone itself is overprice for what it can do right now and they wanna charge nearly 20% of phone price for a battery replacement. This is seriously making consider switching back to old my carrier.

You are an insane, rambling lunatic. The battery costs about the same as an OEM replacement for my Sprint PPC-6700. Overpriced for what it can do? Are you kidding? What were you expecting it to "do"? Oh, and HOW would you like it done? Would you have been satisfied with a few more features if the phone ran Windows Mobile?

The difference between what the phone can do and how it does it is 2.5 years of R&D, hundreds of millions of dollars and one genuine Silicon Valley visionary. But you can stick with your Treo if that makes you happy.

ajhill
Jul 2, 2007, 01:26 PM
Mine occasionally says cannot find edge but it usually finds it in a few seconds. I'm in Salt Lake


Mine hasn't connected to EDGE since 10:11am according to the stocks widget. I tried turning off and on the phone and placing it into airplane mode to turn off EDGE. When I turned airplane mode off it said it could not connect to EDGE.

Any EDGE FAQs out there? Any ideas?

nagromme
Jul 2, 2007, 01:26 PM
I don't think I've ever known anyone who replaced their cell phone battery. My years-old iPod still plays for over 6 hours while powering an FM transmitter. And the iPhone STARTS with a massive battery life--lots of cushion to stay useful even when that life is eventually halved.

In short, I don't expect to have to change my iPhone battery for a LONG time, if ever. But it's good to know it can be done. Third-party options will surface as well I'm sure.

SirOmega
Jul 2, 2007, 01:29 PM
Anyone else having trouble with EDGE today? I'm in Los Angeles.

A good friend of mine also reported this. Too many users it seems.

WestonHarvey1
Jul 2, 2007, 01:31 PM
Wait just a friggen minute.

Does this mean if the battery in my brand new iPhone is bad and will not hold a charge from day 1, I'm out $86 bucks?

WTF

Headed to Apple Store right now.

To do what... return it?

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 01:33 PM
Wait just a friggen minute.

Does this mean if the battery in my brand new iPhone is bad and will not hold a charge from day 1, I'm out $86 bucks?

WTF

Headed to Apple Store right now.

Um, no. Where did you get that idea? This is an out-of-warranty battery replacement service, which is why it's called the iPhone Out-of-warranty Battery Replacement Program (http://www.apple.com/support/iphone/service/battery/).

A defective battery is covered under warranty or AppleCare.

ajhill
Jul 2, 2007, 01:33 PM
A good friend of mine also reported this. Too many users it seems.


So, I'm paying $20 a month for network that I cannot use?

Before it went out it was at 80kbps. Yesterday at the Apple Store EDGE was almost 200kbps.

Now 0kbps :(

Not, good. Does this mean that my $20 will be prorated?

Life on the bleeding EDGE!

bigandy
Jul 2, 2007, 01:37 PM
I don't think I've ever known anyone who replaced their cell phone battery. My years-old iPod still plays for over 6 hours while powering an FM transmitter. And the iPhone STARTS with a massive battery life--lots of cushion to stay useful even when that life is eventually halved.

In short, I don't expect to have to change my iPhone battery for a LONG time, if ever. But it's good to know it can be done. Third-party options will surface as well I'm sure.

I agree. I've had many different phones, but always usually kept them the 12 month duration of the contract. In this time, none have required replacement. Currently, I've got a phone that's 12 months in to an 18 month contract and the battery is as good as the day it was purchased. And I use it all day, every day, on WiFi, EDGE, and Bluetooth.

All this crying over iPhone batteries isn't quite like the iPod thing, however - mobile phones are much more disposable - traditionally - than the music players, they go out when the contract is up (certainly in this part of the world)...

So why is everyone complaining? If the damn thing's only designed to last 2 years, what's the big deal?

*waits for thinksecret-proof battery replacement kit on eBay* :rolleyes:

WestonHarvey1
Jul 2, 2007, 01:39 PM
So, I'm paying $20 a month for network that I cannot use?

Before it went out it was at 80kbps. Yesterday at the Apple Store EDGE was almost 200kbps.

Now 0kbps :(

Not, good. Does this mean that my $20 will be prorated?

Life on the bleeding EDGE!

Welcome to the world of mobile communications. My sprint EVDO service supposedly got over a megabit, but I rarely saw anything above 200kbps when I could connect at all in the Chicago suburbs.

EDGE doesn't seem that slow by comparison, and so far I've had perfect coverage so it is actually an improvement over Sprint's "3G". I'm sure you're just having intermittent issues with the towers near you.

Yankees 4 Life
Jul 2, 2007, 01:41 PM
Yes, there are kits for under $20 to replace iPod batteries, including the tools to crack the case.

My iPhone has been unable to connect to the EDGE Network for the last hour. No google maps, no safari (cannot find the server), no stock quotes, (haven't set up the visual voicemail yet but would this be down too?) nothing?

Anyone else having trouble with EDGE today? I'm in Los Angeles.

hey im in houston and i'm having the same problem too :(

visual voicemail works fine though

smt1192
Jul 2, 2007, 01:42 PM
I assume Apple Care would automatically cover this. Am I correct?

SirOmega
Jul 2, 2007, 01:44 PM
If the iPhone still works as new, you might be able to get something for it. Plus if Apple doesn't release any updated versions that might spoil your resale value.

As long as apple doesnt release any cheap versions of the phone that might spoil my resale value. Which I dont see. If apple ends up selling a 300-400 phone that is similar to the first gen, maybe except for faster internet speeds in two years, then I figure I can sell mine for about half that price.

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 01:47 PM
I assume Apple Care would automatically cover this. Am I correct?

Q: What is the iPhone warranty? Does it cover the battery? Is there any way to extend it? (http://ipodbatteryfaq.com/#22.2)

Q: When does Apple consider the battery defective for purposes of warranty replacement? (http://ipodbatteryfaq.com/#8)

Yankees 4 Life
Jul 2, 2007, 01:48 PM
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?!!! you can spend $600+TAX on an iPhone that requires a monthly service rate, and THEN you complain about this? would you rather buy a new iphone when your battery dies?

and it's called a LANDLINE by the way... *snap*

yea enjoy that landline in canada while im chattin on my iphone... haha:apple:

Yankees 4 Life
Jul 2, 2007, 01:49 PM
Q: What is the iPhone warranty? Does it cover the battery? Is there any way to extend it? (http://ipodbatteryfaq.com/#22.2)

Q: When does Apple consider the battery defective for purposes of warranty replacement? (http://ipodbatteryfaq.com/#8)

very true.. spend 70 bucks, buy the warranty and you save yourself the extra hassle...

Ubuntu
Jul 2, 2007, 01:51 PM
Defend what? Is it a surprise that Apple is offering a battery replacement program? They have an ipod one.

arn

No, no, not the replacement programme itself, but the price. I find it sad that the iPhone cannot be opened by the user... but I'd hope that they'd have a decent price on the battery.

My SE phone lasts soooooooooo long, even with moderate use, and I can buy spare batteries, for barely anything. It's also quicker. I'm just wondering how the people who think that I'm mad for disliking the iPhone can defend this. It looks quite sinister, especially with the release of information timing.

And yeah, they have an iPod one, I recall the prices being even worse.

Defend the fact that if you do not want to do the service yourself you pay apple $90 for a whole super long lasting battery and service and shipping?

Sure.

Things in life cost money.

Unless one believes everything in life should be free and in beer and nuts or whatever the credo is for less then user friendly OSs like linux.

Why should the service cost so much though? I mean, it's a fault that the battery can't be removed (that's ridiculous, my main phone is a samsung u600 and that packs so much inside - including a 3.2mp cam - and still allows the user to remove the battery), but why should the user have to pay so much to fix it?

And how do you know that the battery is super long lasting? Or that it has a significantly better lifetime? We don't know that yet, but my point is that other phone companies seem to handle the problem better.

And I know that things cost money. I don't mind paying for things, please don't think that I expect everything thing to be free, because I don't, as I never actually said that.

But I do find it odd that being a user who has a contract phone that will total up to £0.00 (and the phone is free), I can easily get a new battery, for free in warranty and buy one for about £10 if needs be. I can also do it myself, so there is no risk of damage to the phone.

It's bad enough that the iPhone costs so much (although the contract is quite extensive it seems), I'd just expect a better price on the battery. But hey, this is Apple...

nemaslov
Jul 2, 2007, 01:53 PM
You got any other insightful comments?

Seriously, what'll happen in a year is that I'll pay $86 or whatever for the battery replacement and then it'll last for another year, then I'll sell the phone to someone I know for cheap ($200), they'll pay for the battery replacement and have a cheap iPhone. I'll buy a new iPhone and be OK.

This is simply the first generation of something so completely different than what is out there. It will always be more expensve at the git go. Like the original iPod. Not many could afford one at 500 bucks five years ago but now there are various price and size levels. The iPhone had to start somewhere and soon it will not be for just the "rich people." This is a amazing devise and the half miilion people using it now will help make it even better quickly with their comments, suggestions and complaints. Even if it does 80% of what it is suppose to do, it will be a huge success. Probably already satified 90% of the buyers or more.

oscuh
Jul 2, 2007, 01:53 PM
Ok so AFTER we spend out 500+ tax and 600+tax which is alot to begin with. They now tell us that the batter replacement is gong to cost us 80 dollars + this is ridculous. Apple is trying to milk its customers for everything its worth. The phone itself is overprice for what it can do right now and they wanna charge nearly 20% of phone price for a battery replacement. This is seriously making consider switching back to old my carrier.

A lot compared to what? The subsidised cost of your higher-end PDA Smartphones can easy approach $500-$600. Is it a lot of money? Yes, but Apple certainly isn't alone in the field of expensive gadgetry. This goes back to the PC/Windows argument that their machines are better than Apple because they're cheaper. Riiiiight. Just like a stripped down Chevy Cavalier is sooo much better than a Cadillac CTS-V. :rolleyes:

If they were trying to milk their customers, they'd charge $800 for the low-end and $1000 for the high-end ... and people would still buy them because of the Cult-of-Apple mentality a lot of us have. Just look at them go on eBay for $800 and more.

Do you really think you'll have to change the battery in it all that much? I've had numerous cellphones, all for 2-3 years at a time, and have not ONCE needed a replacement battery. If you have to swap the iPhone battery, it'll be rare.

Lastly, it sounds like you bought an iPhone? If so, WHY??? If you think they're so expensive, etc etc, why would you spend the money?

lazyrighteye
Jul 2, 2007, 01:55 PM
I've replaced 3-4 batteries myself in an iPod for <$20. I'd be shocked to learn we can't obtain a battery off eBay when the replacement is necessary.

3 business days is just silly. I'm going to crack it open and change it myself.

Anyone agree/disagree?

I tentatively agree: meaning, I replaced the batt and HD in my 1st gen iPod. Easy as pie. But that was 1st gen which was practically analog compared to the iPhone.

Still, I feel pretty confident by the time people are needing new batteries, all the pieces of the puzzle will be in place for users to do it themselves.

My ¢2

freediverdude
Jul 2, 2007, 01:58 PM
I saw a video of two people actually taking apart an iphone outside of an apple store with everybody watching......when they got to the battery (which was with great difficulty, the guy couldn't just pry it apart, he needed a tiny screwdriver to take off some teeny teeny screws), it became apparent that it would be difficult to change the battery yourself. The battery is actually attached via soldering to two wires. So unless you're real handy with electronic parts and soldering, I wouldn't attempt it, just pay the 90 bucks.

Ubuntu
Jul 2, 2007, 01:59 PM
So a person is a 'fanboy' if they see no problem with this? Well then, you're an anti-Apple zealot for thinking there is a problem with it.

I'm fine with the price of the battery replacement.

Okay... no. Nice assumption, though. By the logic I used in my original post, I was merely wondering how the fanboys would defend this. That does not make everyone who defends it a fanboy.

Consequently, I guess that makes your statement about me being a zealot somewhat incorrect. It's only correct if your assumption is correct, but here's the fun part... it isn't! Yay! :D

Overall, I am pretty much anti-apple. I think the mac ads are insulting to consumers because they are incredibly bias and remind me of the sort of propaganda I heard in Iraq (seriously, check www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com), I think they were stupid to actually declare that macs never crash on their switch campaign (has been removed, I think), and generally I think they hype up a lot of things sooooooooooooooo much.

But on the other hand, I like the more personal side of Apple. The side that let me keep a macbook battery they sent to me by accident, as well as the replacement charger. Not bad, right? I've got Applecare, though.

And also I recall hearing about a lady who dropped her iPhone and cracked it. I'm not going to be stupid and say "OMFG SEE?! IT SUCKS!!!" because that stuff happens, I'm actually delighted to hear that her local apple store emailed her and replaced it for free.

So, for the digression, I am kinda anti-apple. Kinda.

macnews
Jul 2, 2007, 02:02 PM
Anyone complaining about the battery needs to remember that the iPod has been this way for four years, and it's not as if it needs to be replaced frequently.

Further, the phone WOULD be bigger if it had the mechanisms to allow for a user accessible battery, even if by only a couple of millimeters, and the battery would also probably be smaller (equating to lower capacity and less life). This is because the battery would need to be segregated from other components and so on.

Having the iPod sealed was an engineering decision, and it's the same with iPhone.

Just because the iPod was this way doesn't mean the iPHONE must be this way. After all, Apple and Steve have said it ISN'T an iPod. 99% of cell phones have user replaceable batteries and I think the iPhone should be this way as well. I'm sure it was sealed as an engineering decision but why? Space? Not too likely IMHO. To keep dust out? That I could understand but still pretty weak and not something which couldn't be overcome.

One poster mentioned the battery should last 300-400 charges. I SERIOUSLY hope this is not the case. Think about this, most people likely charge their cell phone EVERY DAY. Given 365 days in a year, the iPhone battery would barely last a year. Granted, these maybe full discharge and charge cycles which then would last two years. That is significantly better but I don't think I have changed the battery in my phone in 3 years.

oscuh
Jul 2, 2007, 02:03 PM
Overall, I am pretty much anti-apple.

Um, so why are you involved in MacRumors?

Karpfish
Jul 2, 2007, 02:10 PM
A good friend of mine also reported this. Too many users it seems.
well on my Crackberry in LA edge works just fine, its an iPhone thing I guess.

ZrSiO4-Zircon
Jul 2, 2007, 02:10 PM
Okay... no. Nice assumption, though. By the logic I used in my original post, I was merely wondering how the fanboys would defend this. That does not make everyone who defends it a fanboy.

Consequently, I guess that makes your statement about me being a zealot somewhat incorrect. It's only correct if your assumption is correct, but here's the fun part... it isn't! Yay! :D

Overall, I am pretty much anti-apple. I think the mac ads are insulting to consumers because they are incredibly bias and remind me of the sort of propaganda I heard in Iraq (seriously, check www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com), I think they were stupid to actually declare that macs never crash on their switch campaign (has been removed, I think), and generally I think they hype up a lot of things sooooooooooooooo much.

But on the other hand, I like the more personal side of Apple. The side that let me keep a macbook battery they sent to me by accident, as well as the replacement charger. Not bad, right? I've got Applecare, though.

And also I recall hearing about a lady who dropped her iPhone and cracked it. I'm not going to be stupid and say "OMFG SEE?! IT SUCKS!!!" because that stuff happens, I'm actually delighted to hear that her local apple store emailed her and replaced it for free.

So, for the digression, I am kinda anti-apple. Kinda.

Thumbs up to you for being able to take both sides, even if you're mostly on one side. Too many people these days polarize themselves and shut themselves out from the otherside. *applause*

Anywho, I have to say, I've replaced my iPod battery... and my other iPod battery, and my friend's iPod battery and flash... Next Macbook I get, I'll be replacing the hard drive myself. I think I'll be confident enough to replace the iPhone battery. Of course, I need to get an iPhone first.... On the other hand, if I decide I don't want to do it myself, I don't mind shelling out $80 to get my battery replaced.

Sure, $80 for a battery replacement is kinda steep. But if I read correctly before, the AppleCare is going to be like $70, yea? Just get that, and you get coverage and a battery replacement. IMO, extended warranty is great. Even if you don't use it.

Like someone said earlier, we'll most likely see 3rd party replacement services go for maybe as low as $30 like we do with the iPods.

WestonHarvey1
Jul 2, 2007, 02:12 PM
well on my Crackberry in LA edge works just fine, its an iPhone thing I guess.

LA is a pretty big place. Its not safe to assume it is an iPhone problem based on your device working properly. There are cell towers everywhere.

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 02:13 PM
Just because the iPod was this way doesn't mean the iPHONE must be this way. After all, Apple and Steve have said it ISN'T an iPod. 99% of cell phones have user replaceable batteries and I think the iPhone should be this way as well. I'm sure it was sealed as an engineering decision but why? Space? Not too likely IMHO. To keep dust out? That I could understand but still pretty weak and not something which couldn't be overcome.

Space is the number one reason. There are actually a lot of reasons (not having to have a battery door and access panels/mechanisms, etc.), but space is the primary reason. It's not as simple as people imagine to just have the back panel be able to slide off. For user-replaceable components, they have to be segregated from the rest of the components, and that adds size and weight even for just a few small pieces of plastic. The door and access mechanisms add size and weight, no matter how miniscule. The phone would probably be a minimum of 2mm thicker. Some people say "2mm? What's the big deal?" When the dimensions of the product are measured in millimeters, 2mm matters. 0.5mm would make it thicker than a Blackjack, whereas it isn't now. It all comes down to engineering for looks, size, and battery capacity.

One poster mentioned the battery should last 300-400 charges. I SERIOUSLY hope this is not the case. Think about this, most people likely charge their cell phone EVERY DAY. Given 365 days in a year, the iPhone battery would barely last a year. Granted, these maybe full discharge and charge cycles which then would last two years. That is significantly better but I don't think I have changed the battery in my phone in 3 years.

ALL lithium ion batteries last that many charges. iPhone doesn't use some magic battery type. It's lithium ion (actually li-ion polymer) like anything else in this class. So if your usage style meant you didn't need to change your existing phone's battery for 3 years, you likely won't have to with iPhone either.

These questions have already been asked and answered for years with the iPod.

blueflame
Jul 2, 2007, 02:13 PM
working fine for me in studio city.
A


also....
when they clone batteries come out, i bet they have their own program, where you send it in the first time, they add a little connector to the soldered wires, so for future batteries, you just upon it up and disconnect. I dont think most people would have too much trouble opening the phone, but soldering wires is another thing. my guess is there IS a way to make this easy coming. sans the apple replacement. although.... im still going apple certified until warranty is up..
Yes, there are kits for under $20 to replace iPod batteries, including the tools to crack the case.

More importantly, if I can change the subject, my iPhone has been unable to connect to the EDGE Network for the last hour. No google maps, no safari, no stock quotes, nothing?

Anyone else having trouble with EDGE today? I'm in Los Angeles.

hardcastle
Jul 2, 2007, 02:16 PM
You are an insane, rambling lunatic. The battery costs about the same as an OEM replacement for my Sprint PPC-6700. Overpriced for what it can do? Are you kidding? What were you expecting it to "do"? Oh, and HOW would you like it done? Would you have been satisfied with a few more features if the phone ran Windows Mobile?

The difference between what the phone can do and how it does it is 2.5 years of R&D, hundreds of millions of dollars and one genuine Silicon Valley visionary. But you can stick with your Treo if that makes you happy.

Bravo.

ajhill
Jul 2, 2007, 02:18 PM
Good news. I called customer service and eventually got through to the service department (by the way, the Keypad doesn't work in speakerphone mode, another thing for the first firmware update).

They had people looking into the 2 hour outage. Apparently a statewide (California) problem with EDGE network logins. Or that's the Att line.

It's back up and working now. Maybe it will be faster now that no one could use it since 10:11am. Testing now... 132.3kbps, 1MB download time 1.1 minutes.

Let hope that never happens again!

hardcastle
Jul 2, 2007, 02:21 PM
No, no, not the replacement programme itself, but the price. I find it sad that the iPhone cannot be opened by the user... but I'd hope that they'd have a decent price on the battery.

My SE phone lasts soooooooooo long, even with moderate use, and I can buy spare batteries, for barely anything. It's also quicker. I'm just wondering how the people who think that I'm mad for disliking the iPhone can defend this. It looks quite sinister, especially with the release of information timing.

And yeah, they have an iPod one, I recall the prices being even worse.



Why should the service cost so much though? I mean, it's a fault that the battery can't be removed (that's ridiculous, my main phone is a samsung u600 and that packs so much inside - including a 3.2mp cam - and still allows the user to remove the battery), but why should the user have to pay so much to fix it?

And how do you know that the battery is super long lasting? Or that it has a significantly better lifetime? We don't know that yet, but my point is that other phone companies seem to handle the problem better.

And I know that things cost money. I don't mind paying for things, please don't think that I expect everything thing to be free, because I don't, as I never actually said that.

But I do find it odd that being a user who has a contract phone that will total up to £0.00 (and the phone is free), I can easily get a new battery, for free in warranty and buy one for about £10 if needs be. I can also do it myself, so there is no risk of damage to the phone.

It's bad enough that the iPhone costs so much (although the contract is quite extensive it seems), I'd just expect a better price on the battery. But hey, this is Apple...

If you can't afford the phone, don't buy it. If you like your current phone better, do not buy the iPhone. Why are you making this so hard on yourself? It could be worse. You could be in Darfur. iPhones aren't even available there.

ajhill
Jul 2, 2007, 02:22 PM
working fine for me in studio city.
A


also....
when they clone batteries come out, i bet they have their own program, where you send it in the first time, they add a little connector to the soldered wires, so for future batteries, you just upon it up and disconnect. I dont think most people would have too much trouble opening the phone, but soldering wires is another thing. my guess is there IS a way to make this easy coming. sans the apple replacement. although.... im still going apple certified until warranty is up..


Yes, they fixed it, probably just before you tried it. I was told it was a statewide condition. And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have said that if it weren't.

Let's hope it keeps working, all of a sudden 132kbps seems fast! :p

Let's also hope that they knew about the problem BEFORE I called. I hate to always have to be the one who leaves the movie theater to tell the manager that the movie is out of focus, or up too loud.

I wish companies cared about quality still. 132kbps? We're going to need more Fibre!!!

Al

Mac21ND
Jul 2, 2007, 02:22 PM
You are an insane, rambling lunatic. The battery costs about the same as an OEM replacement for my Sprint PPC-6700. Overpriced for what it can do? Are you kidding? What were you expecting it to "do"? Oh, and HOW would you like it done? Would you have been satisfied with a few more features if the phone ran Windows Mobile?

The difference between what the phone can do and how it does it is 2.5 years of R&D, hundreds of millions of dollars and one genuine Silicon Valley visionary. But you can stick with your Treo if that makes you happy.

Amen!

oscuh
Jul 2, 2007, 02:22 PM
If you can't afford the phone, don't buy it. If you like your current phone better, do not buy the iPhone. Why are you making this so hard on yourself? It could be worse. You could be in Darfur. iPhones aren't even available there.

...and we thought the genocide was bad enough!

This gets my vote for POTD :D

starlabs
Jul 2, 2007, 02:26 PM
Guys, let's keep the talk to the battery. There's plenty of other threads to talk about EDGE, etc...

Now, as freediverdude has mentioned - and if you look at any of the disassembly pics on the intertubes - you will see that the battery will not be user-replaceable for anyone (unless you're comfortable with soldering as the leads are soldered directly to the battery, etc).

I wish the rental program came with the battery replacement. Charging extra just to be able to use a phone while yours is out for work sucks.

Yankees 4 Life
Jul 2, 2007, 02:30 PM
Guys, let's keep the talk to the battery. There's plenty of other threads to talk about EDGE, etc...

Now, as freediverdude has mentioned - and if you look at any of the disassembly pics on the intertubes - you will see that the battery will not be user-replaceable for anyone (unless you're comfortable with soldering as the leads are soldered directly to the battery, etc).

I wish the rental program came with the battery replacement. Charging extra just to be able to use a phone while yours is out for work sucks.

hey buy the applecare plan... it'll save you lots of money in the future...

Um, so why are you involved in MacRumors?

I am still wondering the same exact thing...

Good news. I called customer service and eventually got through to the service department (by the way, the Keypad doesn't work in speakerphone mode, another thing for the first firmware update).

They had people looking into the 2 hour outage. Apparently a statewide (California) problem with EDGE network logins. Or that's the Att line.

It's back up and working now. Maybe it will be faster now that no one could use it since 10:11am. Testing now... 132.3kbps, 1MB download time 1.1 minutes.

Let hope that never happens again!

It's still out in htown texas...

If you can't afford the phone, don't buy it. If you like your current phone better, do not buy the iPhone. Why are you making this so hard on yourself? It could be worse. You could be in Darfur. iPhones aren't even available there.

that guy who wrote that message lives in the UK, so um he has no iphone, so how can an honest opinion be made by an apple hater?

Consultant
Jul 2, 2007, 02:48 PM
IPhone is similar to iPod, so the process for iPhone is probably similar.


-----------
COST TO REPLACE BATTERY
If it's under warranty, it's FREE, zero dollars.

-----------
TIME TO REPLACE BATTERY

Currently, if you need your iPod battery replaced under warranty,

APPLE STORE
Make Appt with Apple Store Genius Bar, walk in, you will walk out the same day with an essentially new iPod. Same day, not 1 day, not 2 days, not 3 days. SAME DAY.

BY MAIL
Well it takes a few days because it takes time to ship a package. Are you expecting that Apple will teleport you a new device?

-----------

Eough said.

BKF
Jul 2, 2007, 02:52 PM
Overall, I am pretty much anti-apple. I think the mac ads are insulting to consumers because they are incredibly bias and remind me of the sort of propaganda I heard in Iraq (seriously, check www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com), I think they were stupid to actually declare that macs never crash on their switch campaign (has been removed, I think), and generally I think they hype up a lot of things sooooooooooooooo much.Kinda.

So, look, I'm not the biggest fan of the ads, either. But you're compaining because the Apple ads are biased toward Apple? Are you joking or trolling?

slughead
Jul 2, 2007, 02:53 PM
That is a very high price. Does anyone know what mAh rating the iPhone battery has and if it's Lithium Polymer or not?
Yes
http://stream.ifixit.com/Parts/images/stream/images_large/10-21.jpg

The battery couldn't cost more than $20. In 6 months I predict 3rd party services charging $40 plus shipping to replace iPhone batteries.

Too bad it'll almost certainly void the warranty.

The main problem is that Apple solders the battery in there--doubling the replacement time.

Lame.

poopooplatter
Jul 2, 2007, 02:55 PM
So, I'm paying $20 a month for network that I cannot use?

Before it went out it was at 80kbps. Yesterday at the Apple Store EDGE was almost 200kbps.

Now 0kbps :(

Not, good. Does this mean that my $20 will be prorated?

Life on the bleeding EDGE!

You paid $600 to be a guinea pig. My apple stock loves people like you!

OutThere
Jul 2, 2007, 02:56 PM
Will be available in July and will include the battery. $69 for the additional year of warranty. Check the Warranty tab on the iPhone site.

For those thinking of "popping the lid" and doing it on their own with a battery from eBay I just laugh. Take a look at Think Secret and the disassembly of the iPhone...that should make $80 look pretty good. I understand that it will last from 300-400 charges.

Looks pretty straightforward to get to the battery....pry off the black back part, unscrew 4 screws, slide off the black. Done. There's the battery. I don't see what the big deal is. If you've taken apart any electronics before, taking apart the iPhone would not be very difficult.

http://thinksecret.com/archives/iphonetakeapart/source/iphone19.html

oscuh
Jul 2, 2007, 02:57 PM
Yes
http://stream.ifixit.com/Parts/images/stream/images_large/10-21.jpgThe main problem is that Apple solders the battery in there--doubling the replacement time.

I wouldn't be surprised if Gen 2 iPhone batteries plug in. Still internally housed, so as not to screw with the gorgeous casework, but it would make them more easily user-replaceable, WHEN and IF you needed to.

WestonHarvey1
Jul 2, 2007, 02:58 PM
Yes

The battery couldn't cost more than $20. In 6 months I predict 3rd party services charging $40 plus shipping to replace iPhone batteries.

Too bad it'll almost certainly void the warranty.

The main problem is that Apple solders the battery in there--doubling the replacement time.

Lame.

Doubling the replacement time? The work is in getting the thing open. That's a 2 minute solder job at most. Those joints are huge.

Cybergypsy
Jul 2, 2007, 03:00 PM
I have no problem with the price for the batt. or the 3 day turn around.......people who do should buy a nextel......

Maccus Aurelius
Jul 2, 2007, 03:00 PM
All this hubbub over non-user replaceable batteries? :rolleyes:

Anyone out there with a T-Mobile Wing that can can easily remove the battery? Cuz I sure as heck can't.

My Sony Ericsson T-610 has been in use since 2004 and I have yet to actually replace the battery. But, then again, it's not a smart phone, so doesn't have the power-sucking gizmos that these new-fangled whatchamadoozits have. But anyway, the iPhone is not alone with this user replaceable battery stuff. If anyone is familiar with the Samsung Upstage, they'd see that it too lacks this. Of course, it's Samsung, so big deal right? :rolleyes:

krimedog
Jul 2, 2007, 03:05 PM
I saw a video of two people actually taking apart an iphone outside of an apple store with everybody watching......when they got to the battery (which was with great difficulty, the guy couldn't just pry it apart, he needed a tiny screwdriver to take off some teeny teeny screws), it became apparent that it would be difficult to change the battery yourself. The battery is actually attached via soldering to two wires. So unless you're real handy with electronic parts and soldering, I wouldn't attempt it, just pay the 90 bucks.


Although I was not aware of this, I still feel I would do it on my own. It's important to remember;

Soldering a battery is different than soldering a circuit board.

Meaning that soldering in components on the main logic board would risk total damage, but soldering a battery would risk.........ummm....practically nothing.

Macmaniac
Jul 2, 2007, 03:11 PM
Always buy AppleCare. If you are going to drop $500-$600 on a device buy the warranty.

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 03:14 PM
Yes
http://stream.ifixit.com/Parts/images/stream/images_large/10-21.jpg

The battery couldn't cost more than $20. In 6 months I predict 3rd party services charging $40 plus shipping to replace iPhone batteries.

Too bad it'll almost certainly void the warranty.

The main problem is that Apple solders the battery in there--doubling the replacement time.

Lame.

Why do people always talk about "voiding the warranty" with iPod, and now iPhone, battery replacements?

First, you probably will NEVER need to replace the battery while the unit is still under warranty. And second, even if you do, the battery is COVERED under the warranty. So why would you replace it yourself? If the answer is "because I don't want to wait" or something similar, you can either use the loaner program or do the replacement at an Apple Retail store.

Ubuntu
Jul 2, 2007, 03:16 PM
Um, so why are you involved in MacRumors?

Kinda.

Are you seriously suggesting that the entire community is monotone? That we're all here for the same reason? Because if you are, me thinks ye be wrong, arrrgh!

I'm involved because I like to help people (even if I barely can), I like to read news about macs, because I won't touch Vista until it actually stops telling me that it needs to authorise Windows Live Messenger, and even after I doubt I'll ever buy a PC. I also like the community, because I like talking to other mac enthusiasts.

I think macs are awesome, and if anything annoys me about them, it's the people who use the old, lame arguments which are based on iMac G3s, and the others who just jump on the bandwagon.

Apple is a cool company, I'd actually like to work for Apple, as odd as it is. I just think that they're a bit too arrogant. And sometimes the arrogance doesn't pay off. It's like a psychological thing, when I got my first Powerbook, I was all like "Gooooooooooooodbye crashes!" and then it crashed over time, it froze, etc, it's inevitable, but the fact that I purchased the machine mainly because Apple sold it to me as if it was a vaccination for the world's most evil disease was now like a sting in my side. It still doesn't crash as much as my PC (which is better spec), and my macbook crashes a fair bit too.

I just don't expect it to happen. I'm engineered to expect it to not show the beachball every time I click System Preferences. But it does. And I cry. Not really. :D

lamina
Jul 2, 2007, 03:17 PM
I've replaced 3-4 batteries myself in an iPod for <$20. I'd be shocked to learn we can't obtain a battery off eBay when the replacement is necessary.

3 business days is just silly. I'm going to crack it open and change it myself.

Anyone agree/disagree?

The iPhone battery is soldered to the mainboard, so it's not nearly as easy as the iPod battery replacement which is akin to changing the battery on a cordless phone.

If you have even the most basic soldering experience, you can do it yourself though.

Ubuntu
Jul 2, 2007, 03:20 PM
If you can't afford the phone, don't buy it. If you like your current phone better, do not buy the iPhone. Why are you making this so hard on yourself? It could be worse. You could be in Darfur. iPhones aren't even available there.

My friend, that's the argument I'm sure anyone would dread. I realise it could be worse, I think we all must do, at one point. But we continue with our lives. I could be spending all my money on things at my age (19, and believe me, I'd love to, just gimme a credit card), but I'm not. I'm donating a small, minimal amount to local charities. I don't have a debit card yet so I can't really do anything official. But why are we all not helping the situation enough? Why are we sat at our computers, expletive about how they screw us around, interrupting our second-to-second coverage of the next Apple keynote... I guess it's a question we're too afraid to answer. :)


This is a forum, a place for discussion, right? I don't really think I'm making it hard on myself. :)

Maccus Aurelius
Jul 2, 2007, 03:21 PM
Kinda.
I just don't expect it to happen. I'm engineered to expect it to not show the beachball every time I click System Preferences. But it does. And I cry. Not really. :D

Crash-free macbook here.....and no beachball when I click system preferences. In fact, it starts up so quickly it's almost as if I had it open already :D

Ubuntu
Jul 2, 2007, 03:25 PM
So, look, I'm not the biggest fan of the ads, either. But you're compaining because the Apple ads are biased toward Apple? Are you joking or trolling?

My apologies for not making myself clear enough.

Of course an advert will be biased, but to a level, I'd hope. Apple basically trashes the competition, and yet depends on them for certain programs. Kinda harsh. I don't know if MS does the same, because I'm not an MS fan, I don't post on MS forums, and the only time I go on the site is when I want to get my head around the idea of the Surface thing.

It's great to say that macs come with iLife, but they make it out like Windows has NOTHING of the sort. They make it out like macs are more fun, but then, PCs are much better for games, and a lot of windows laptops are using Quickplay, which means that users can play DVDs without launching Windows. I know that DVDs and games aren't the whole picture, but they're still something big.

Mac21ND
Jul 2, 2007, 03:26 PM
Here's my 2 cents on the whole thing.....

No matter what Apple will make or charge, someone will always complain. If Apple wanted to 'milk' it's customers, they wouldn't offer an exchange program. They would simply insists you buy a new iPhone. "Sorry, you're warranty is up. You can buy a new iPhone for $499."

At least they're giving users an option. Sure, the option may be more expensive than some of you may like, but if it was $50, someone would want $25...

As for costs, I always love the argument of "I can get a replacement battery for $20." If you can, that's cool. The reason you can get a battery for that cost is because you're performing the labor and assuming the risk if you screw up the install. If you're Apple, you're paying for not only the battery, but labor and overhead - neither of which are cheap. I'm not saying Apple isn't making a good margin on such a program (they're a company afterall and companies are supposed to make money - how quickly we forget) but they could have gone much higher on the costs or given you no option at all.

As for replacement verses non-replacement, the replacement battery for my LG phone from Verizon is $49.99. That's not exactly cheap compared to $79 for the iPhone and I have to install it (yeah, it's not hard, but that's not the point). Take a look through At&t's (Cingular's) website at their battery costs. A few are $20. On average, they're between $40-$50. Some are even $85! Blackberry phones are $44.99 it appears. I'll certainly give you that Apple's battery is more expensive, but the difference $20-$30 difference in price helps pay for things like labor and overhead.

Kwill
Jul 2, 2007, 03:28 PM
VOCE costs $1500 to activate and $500 per month. (I'll bet battery replacement is included though.) It is the real phone for real rich people.

http://www.informationweek.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=173602486

irun5k
Jul 2, 2007, 03:29 PM
It is amazing to me how this single device has created such a polarized, vocal community!

This phenomenon is worthy of a study in itself. There are so many dynamics going on here, it is just crazy. You have so many different camps:

1) The "iPhone can do no wrong" camp. These are people who would have evangelized the device no matter what, no exceptions.

2) The "my current rate plan, my current phone, etc." camp. These are people who automatically discount the iPhone by posting information about what their current phone can do or what their current rate plan is like. For this group, cheaper and more raw features is always better, no matter what.

3) The "I don't care (but actually I do)" camp. This group claims to be annoyed with all the publicity involved with the launch of the iPhone, yet they are obviously spending time lurking on the forums that discuss it.

4) The "Apple can burn in hell" camp. These people are so annoyed at the iPhone for undisclosed reasons that they want Apple to go out of business and they want the world to know it. These people are the more ill tempered, almost violent version of the ""I don't care (but actually I do)" crowd.

5) The "Realist" camp. Okay, so this is my camp, and why I refer to it favorably. This group sees the iPhone as a big step for cell phones and the first major shift in the way people think about cell phones. This group realizes that this is currently a solid, unique product that has appeal to specific groups, and it will probably get better as time goes on. This group won't hesitate to point out limitations or things they'd like to see in future versions, which makes them different from camp #1.

I've just enjoyed observing all of this. I'm not sure what exact combination of factors led to all of this. Whatever it is though, maybe we could figure out what it is and use the same combination of things to get kids interested in school or adults interested in politics and government? Ha. wishful thinking :)

kadajawi
Jul 2, 2007, 03:32 PM
Oh my... the price is a bit high, but never mind. The main thing that bugs me is that I can't bring along a spare battery.

lazyrighteye
Jul 2, 2007, 03:34 PM
One poster mentioned the battery should last 300-400 charges. I SERIOUSLY hope this is not the case. Think about this, most people likely charge their cell phone EVERY DAY. Given 365 days in a year, the iPhone battery would barely last a year. Granted, these maybe full discharge and charge cycles which then would last two years. That is significantly better but I don't think I have changed the battery in my phone in 3 years.

Dude, it's "cycles," not "charges." Big difference - and a common misunderstanding, especially on these forums.

"Cycles" mean from a full charge down to completely drained.
Most people do not cycle a battery in a single day. Like me, most users charge their devices on a daily basis (before going to bed?). Thus, they are not hitting the equivalent of a cycle until 3-4 days (roughly). That's where they get the 3-4 year battery life claim.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

HTH

lazyrighteye
Jul 2, 2007, 03:36 PM
I've just enjoyed observing all of this. I'm not sure what exact combination of factors led to all of this. Whatever it is though, maybe we could figure out what it is and use the same combination of things to get kids interested in school or adults interested in politics and government? Ha. wishful thinking :)

Steve '08™? :p

oscuh
Jul 2, 2007, 03:38 PM
Kinda.

Are you seriously suggesting that the entire community is monotone? That we're all here for the same reason? Because if you are, me thinks ye be wrong, arrrgh!

I'm involved because I like to help people (even if I barely can), I like to read news about macs, because I won't touch Vista until it actually stops telling me that it needs to authorise Windows Live Messenger, and even after I doubt I'll ever buy a PC. I also like the community, because I like talking to other mac enthusiasts.

I think macs are awesome, and if anything annoys me about them, it's the people who use the old, lame arguments which are based on iMac G3s, and the others who just jump on the bandwagon.

Apple is a cool company, I'd actually like to work for Apple, as odd as it is. I just think that they're a bit too arrogant. And sometimes the arrogance doesn't pay off. It's like a psychological thing, when I got my first Powerbook, I was all like "Gooooooooooooodbye crashes!" and then it crashed over time, it froze, etc, it's inevitable, but the fact that I purchased the machine mainly because Apple sold it to me as if it was a vaccination for the world's most evil disease was now like a sting in my side. It still doesn't crash as much as my PC (which is better spec), and my macbook crashes a fair bit too.

I just don't expect it to happen. I'm engineered to expect it to not show the beachball every time I click System Preferences. But it does. And I cry. Not really. :D


No, this is a place for discussion, but I don't see how in one post you can say you're Anti-Apple, in the next say your Kinda Anti-Apple and then the one after that say you'd like to work at Apple! In order to have a viable discussion, you first need to determine what your position is. You can't seem to decide what you think, and that is what leads to others' confusion and frustration. You come off like Apple is a horrible company and they are to be loathed. Talk like that on MR will bring down considerable response, as it clearly has. It'd be like try preaching the virtues of being a vegan on a hunting-related forum.

Is Apple a little arrogant? Absolutely. Do they have a right to be? Yes. Why? Because, IMO, no other company can do the things they do. Do you really think MS could come out with something like the iPhone for all the money and programmers, etc they could throw at it? Apple is something special. They are JUST a company, however, and are their products perfect? No, but they're certainly more perfect than anyone else's.

oscuh
Jul 2, 2007, 03:46 PM
The "Realist" camp. Okay, so this is my camp, and why I refer to it favorably. This group sees the iPhone as a big step for cell phones and the first major shift in the way people think about cell phones. This group realizes that this is currently a solid, unique product that has appeal to specific groups, and it will probably get better as time goes on. This group won't hesitate to point out limitations or things they'd like to see in future versions, which makes them different from camp #1.

Great post! I like to think I'm in Group 5 as well. Granted, I lean more towards being an "Apple Can Do No Wrong" guy than I should at times, but when you compare what they do to what other people do, it's hard to not see the virtues.

Back to costs, your categorization applies ... could the battery be cheaper? Yes, but could the process be more expensive? Yes. Will it probably be "made better" in the future? I'd imagine so. Apple rarely sits on it's laurels for too long. You know they have a team of engineers already working on version 2, and probably watching threads like this to see what people have to say.

macsforme
Jul 2, 2007, 03:54 PM
Of course an advert will be biased, but to a level, I'd hope. Apple basically trashes the competition, and yet depends on them for certain programs. Kinda harsh. I don't know if MS does the same, because I'm not an MS fan, I don't post on MS forums, and the only time I go on the site is when I want to get my head around the idea of the Surface thing.

Apple ads are more anti-PC (i.e. the hardware manufacturers, like Dell, HP, IBM, Gateway) than anti-Microsoft, although PC hardware and Windows is hard to separate.

A Pittarelli
Jul 2, 2007, 03:59 PM
hmm i dunno, sound like a solid program to me

Maccus Aurelius
Jul 2, 2007, 04:07 PM
Apple ads are more anti-PC (i.e. the hardware manufacturers, like Dell, HP, IBM, Gateway) than anti-Microsoft, although PC hardware and Windows is hard to separate.

If Michael Dell said that I should "close up shop and give the investors their money back", I'd probably take shots at 'em too. :p

cliffjumper68
Jul 2, 2007, 04:14 PM
The edge network drops or limits data when it is busy with voice calls. They get priority. It is the same with all the networks, so unless you are in a very well covered area do not expect data coverage during high demand times (i.e. mother's day ect.)

davidh_la
Jul 2, 2007, 04:15 PM
85 is fine.

Not great, but fine.

This is better than any other cell phone period, so stop whining. Stop comparing it to crappy phones.

I love the iPhone -- and my Visual Voicemail (still) isn't working correctly yet!

I've never updated my battery on any phone. I always end up upgrading before it needs replacement. I'm sure the iPhone will be no exception.

coolfactor
Jul 2, 2007, 04:20 PM
Some money making tactic.

Hardly. In 18 months, wages will have gone up a tad. There's no room in this $89 for Apple to be making any money. It's just covering the cost of the service.

coolfactor
Jul 2, 2007, 04:24 PM
Is Apple a little arrogant? Absolutely. Do they have a right to be? Yes. Why? Because, IMO, no other company can do the things they do. Do you really think MS could come out with something like the iPhone for all the money and programmers, etc they could throw at it? Apple is something special. They are JUST a company, however, and are their products perfect? No, but they're certainly more perfect than anyone else's.

Bravo! Well said.

irun5k
Jul 2, 2007, 04:27 PM
Back to costs, your categorization applies ... could the battery be cheaper? Yes, but could the process be more expensive? Yes. Will it probably be "made better" in the future? I'd imagine so. Apple rarely sits on it's laurels for too long. You know they have a team of engineers already working on version 2, and probably watching threads like this to see what people have to say.

Right, I agree...the prospect of having to pay almost $90 for a battery replacement doesn't sound too good when you first consider it. I remember spending almost $400 on a Sony Clie (615-T I think) a few years ago. It was super thin, nice metal enclosure, with a non-serviceable battery. It is still working today (my Mom has it now), but it isn't in daily use. Even a percentage of iPods probably aren't used daily- I don't use mine except at the gym 3 times a week. So, it will be interesting to see how this plays out, with a device that almost everyone will be using daily.

One guess is that in 2 years, many people will be glad if they're only paying 90 bucks instead of giving in to the temptation of the latest and greatest iPhone that just came out. It is kind of like my car- occasionally it needs expensive repairs but I'm glad to not have a car payment. I'm curious how long the average phone stays in service? And how this compares to other gadgets, like PDAs.

Yankees 4 Life
Jul 2, 2007, 04:33 PM
hmm i dunno, sound like a solid program to me

i agree... its just apple being apple

85 is fine.

Not great, but fine.

This is better than any other cell phone period, so stop whining. Stop comparing it to crappy phones.

I love the iPhone -- and my Visual Voicemail (still) isn't working correctly yet!

I've never updated my battery on any phone. I always end up upgrading before it needs replacement. I'm sure the iPhone will be no exception.

hey, the visual voicemail you have to set it up yourself using settings in the iphone when you go to settings>>phone>>voicemail... its there somewhere how to set it up :) Good luck

DrEwe
Jul 2, 2007, 04:47 PM
I've replaced 3-4 batteries myself in an iPod for <$20. I'd be shocked to learn we can't obtain a battery off eBay when the replacement is necessary.

3 business days is just silly. I'm going to crack it open and change it myself.

Anyone agree/disagree?

The battery is soldered in - so it wouldn't be as easy as an iPod battery replacement

KurtangleTN
Jul 2, 2007, 04:52 PM
Wow, there goes me wanting an iPhone.

Ubuntu
Jul 2, 2007, 04:55 PM
No, this is a place for discussion, but I don't see how in one post you can say you're Anti-Apple, in the next say your Kinda Anti-Apple and then the one after that say you'd like to work at Apple! In order to have a viable discussion, you first need to determine what your position is. You can't seem to decide what you think, and that is what leads to others' confusion and frustration. You come off like Apple is a horrible company and they are to be loathed. Talk like that on MR will bring down considerable response, as it clearly has. It'd be like try preaching the virtues of being a vegan on a hunting-related forum.

Is Apple a little arrogant? Absolutely. Do they have a right to be? Yes. Why? Because, IMO, no other company can do the things they do. Do you really think MS could come out with something like the iPhone for all the money and programmers, etc they could throw at it? Apple is something special. They are JUST a company, however, and are their products perfect? No, but they're certainly more perfect than anyone else's.

Maybe you are blind?

Overall, I am pretty much anti-apple.

Oh look, I said pretty much, and overall. Isn't that just outstanding? I thought I'd pick out those words because you decided to pick out my language. :D


I love macs. I am a mac enthusiast. I'd love to talk about macs all day, and I do. I'd love to work with macs... and hey, fancy that, working for Apple would be one stellar job! I'd say that this discussion is pretty viable, albeit for the digressive nature. I'm pretty certain on what I think, thank you.

The response has been pretty good, it's been respectable, and clean. Please, please please don't treat me like some naive idiot, because I'm not.

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist :)

Chupa Chupa
Jul 2, 2007, 05:11 PM
For a company that stresses simplicity this is just crazy insane. I think 100% of the population 5 years old and up know how to change a battery. Why does Apple make this more difficult and expensive than necessary. Sorry but you can't say this isn't pure greed equal to anything M$ has ever done. The battery should be user replaceable or at least not soldered in so a savvy user could do the replacement himself.

Its not just about the money. Think of all the resources used to replace one stinking battery (man power, gas , electricity, shipping boxes -- which may get recycled or may just end up in the dump). It's pure waste. Please don't talk about Apple or Al Gore being environmentally conscience with this policy in place. At the very least they should have designed the phone so that the battery could be replaced in-store.

That said, I wonder if the forthcoming AppleCare for iPhone for $69 will cover batteries, and if so, what criterion/criteria will Apple use to determine a battery should be replaced?

oscuh
Jul 2, 2007, 05:35 PM
Maybe you are blind?



Oh look, I said pretty much, and overall. Isn't that just outstanding? I thought I'd pick out those words because you decided to pick out my language. :D


I love macs. I am a mac enthusiast. I'd love to talk about macs all day, and I do. I'd love to work with macs... and hey, fancy that, working for Apple would be one stellar job! I'd say that this discussion is pretty viable, albeit for the digressive nature. I'm pretty certain on what I think, thank you.

The response has been pretty good, it's been respectable, and clean. Please, please please don't treat me like some naive idiot, because I'm not.

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist :)

What's sad here is you don't see the irony on your own statements. You can't LOVE Macs and be Anti-Apple all at the same time. And using "Pretty Much" as a qualifier doesn't change what you're saying.

And I wasn't treating you like a naive idiot. If you felt that way, I apologize, but maybe you're feeling that way because you made certain statements (and seem to continue to make statements that don't make sense), got called on it, and are now backing water. Calling me "blind" not only doesn't make sense, it serves no purpose in this context. Oh, and don't you see that I'm not the only one who seems to be questioning your line of reasoning? If one person thinks your off, it's no big deal, but when lots do, maybe there's something to it ... keep that in mind, and maybe try to be a bit more concise in your posts. You may know what you're saying, but apparently the rest of us don't.

At any rate, this has gotten waaay off topic, so I shall retire.

poe diddley
Jul 2, 2007, 05:48 PM
seriously? apple made the iphone with a battery you have to send in to get replaced? that's majorly retarded. i'm sure they did it so they could make a few bucks off the replacement service but what kind of crapola is that?
you want me to send my phone in and not have it for THREE FULL DAYS in order to switch the battery?
omg that's reason #1 why i probably won't get an iphone now. if i pay $500 for a phone and have to send it in to get the battery switched and go without a phone for 3 days or pay to rent one or whatever, then it's worthless to me.
sorry it looks cool, but that's a major obstacle in my opinion. if i can't pop in a new battery myself, and i have to use AT&T which is terrible in my area, then i for sure won't be getting one.

gimme a call in two years when i can get one on verizon, and the battery can be switched out by the user.

Draelius
Jul 2, 2007, 05:52 PM
seriously? apple made the iphone with a battery you have to send in to get replaced? that's majorly retarded. i'm sure they did it so they could make a few bucks off the replacement service but what kind of crapola is that?
you want me to send my phone in and not have it for THREE FULL DAYS in order to switch the battery?
omg that's reason #1 why i probably won't get an iphone now. if i pay $500 for a phone and have to send it in to get the battery switched and go without a phone for 3 days or pay to rent one or whatever, then it's worthless to me.
sorry it looks cool, but that's a major obstacle in my opinion. if i can't pop in a new battery myself, and i have to use AT&T which is terrible in my area, then i for sure won't be getting one.

gimme a call in two years when i can get one on verizon, and the battery can be switched out by the user.

...so they can get the phone numbers off your contact list for marketing purposes.

JUST KIDDING....or am I?!?!?!

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 06:01 PM
seriously? apple made the iphone with a battery you have to send in to get replaced? that's majorly retarded. i'm sure they did it so they could make a few bucks off the replacement service but what kind of crapola is that?
you want me to send my phone in and not have it for THREE FULL DAYS in order to switch the battery?
omg that's reason #1 why i probably won't get an iphone now. if i pay $500 for a phone and have to send it in to get the battery switched and go without a phone for 3 days or pay to rent one or whatever, then it's worthless to me.
sorry it looks cool, but that's a major obstacle in my opinion. if i can't pop in a new battery myself, and i have to use AT&T which is terrible in my area, then i for sure won't be getting one.

gimme a call in two years when i can get one on verizon, and the battery can be switched out by the user.

Wow.

Did you read ANYTHING in this thread?

- You probably won't even need to replace the battery in the life of the phone (i.e., how long you keep it before replacing it). But if you do:

- You can get a loaner iPhone while your battery is being replaced, which will look, act, and behave exactly like your own iPhone, with all its data, after one sync with iTunes...no downtime and no time without your iPhone.

- You can receive a replacement phone via an Apple Retail store on-demand; again, one sync with iTunes and it's "your" phone.

- What's that? They don't even give you your own phone back?!?! No; calm down. They give you a replacement phone that is either new, or a factory-refurbished phone in a brand-new enclosure (so it looks brand new) with its own 90-day service warranty.

- This service is only needed once the phone is out of warranty or AppleCare, otherwise the battery is covered.

- This is the way it's been on iPods since November 2003.

- This isn't so Apple can "make a few bucks" on battery replacements. They'd prefer to never have to replace the batteries at all. It also isn't so people are forced to get new iPhones. It's an engineering decision, pure and simple, that allows for the phone to be considerably thinner (likely by a couple millimeters or more, and yes, that is a big difference) and allows for its sleek, untarnished appearance. Obviously some people will insist it's a way for Apple to make money or that this is planned obsolescence, or that they only reason they offer a battery replacement is for PR purposes. (Sigh.)

- As to your "pay to rent one" comment, just pretend that the battery replacement service is $108 instead of $79, then. Simple. If you think it's too expensive, that's one thing. But so are many OEM batteries. The bottom line is Apple WILL replace your battery, and you DO NOT have to go without a phone. It's not like you have to replace the battery every other month. If anything, it's more like every other year (if that). The iPod battery replacement service was $99 for years. Yeah, people complained. But then, it didn't stop 100 million iPods from being sold, did it? Has it occurred to you that part of the reason things like iPods and the iPhone are so desirable is that they're not covered with battery compartment doors and screwholes and bulked up with all the crap needed to get at the battery? Even if it's a half an ounce or a couple millimeters thicker, that's a lot in these devices.

Next time, try reading the thread before you respond.

LimeiBook86
Jul 2, 2007, 06:04 PM
I think the price of the battery replacement is pretty high. But, I believe that other companies may start offering the same thing. iPodResQ.com has battery replacement services for around $50. So it may only be a matter of time until we start seeing battery replacement services from other companies. :D

The iPhone is still very new, so we just have to wait a while and see what happens. But, still, Apple's battery replacement price is very high in my opinion. :rolleyes:

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 06:12 PM
I think the price of the battery replacement is pretty high. But, I believe that other companies may start offering the same thing. iPodResQ.com has battery replacement services for around $50. So it may only be a matter of time until we start seeing battery replacement services from other companies. :D

The iPhone is still very new, so we just have to wait a while and see what happens. But, still, Apple's battery replacement price is very high in my opinion. :rolleyes:

Well, the iPod battery replacement was $99 for two years. Now it's $59. Third parties have always been cheaper.

But through Apple, you don't have to be without your phone if you send it in. Perhaps third parties will also offer loaner iPhones like Apple does, and at a cheaper price.

Do-it-yourself kits will probably also become available, but the iPhone looks considerably more difficult to take apart than iPods, and the battery is soldered to boot.

The bottom line is there will be ways to replace the battery, and ways to do it without giving up your phone. I don't know why this is such a big deal for something that is done so infrequently.

For people who want to SWAP batteries (e.g., with a charged one), that's a different argument entirely. But that's just not how iPhone is. Besides, anywhere there is a USB port, you have a "charger".

mustang_dvs
Jul 2, 2007, 06:19 PM
I hear you! That phone insurance is really nice! Sprint replaced my wifes 2 year old phone that was falling apart with a brand new one and threw in another wall charger too.

...

Wasn't there some talk out there of battery swaps being able to be done in Apple stores?24 months of phone "insurance" will run you $120-150 at Verizon or Sprint.

iPhones are only serviced at the depot level, according to the Geniuses I've asked.

3 business days is just silly. I'm going to crack it open and change it myself. As far as I can tell it's: Drop off & ship out (day 1), depot receive and ship back (day 2), deliver/pick-up (day 3).

ThinkSecret "cracked" open their iPhone and destroyed the circuit board in the process.

isn't there an apple care protection plan available for the iphone as there is for all other apple hardware?1 year hardware warranty included, additional year of coverage via AppleCare is $69, later this month.

I already need to send in my iPhone for repair, and no way am I paying for a rental! That should be provided, or at least a cheap loaner phone.Take it back to the Apple Store for an inspection -- if you haven't damaged it, they'll perform an even exchange for a new unit, in-store, for free.

Does this mean if the battery in my brand new iPhone is bad and will not hold a charge from day 1, I'm out $86 bucks?DOA units or units that fail from defect within 14 days (return period) are replaced on-site via even-exchange. Non-damaged defective units between days 15-365 are covered by warranty for free repair/replacement.

Yeah the Battery Life is pretty bogus its noon and my battery is half dead...
Considering the ones in the Apple Stores are getting used pretty much constantly from 10am-9pm and spend nearly 0 time in the dock charging, I was pretty impressed to pick one up at 8pm Saturday and still see battery life remaining.

And also I recall hearing about a lady who dropped her iPhone and cracked it. I'm not going to be stupid and say "OMFG SEE?! IT SUCKS!!!" because that stuff happens, I'm actually delighted to hear that her local apple store emailed her and replaced it for free.I call shenanigans -- considering that the guys at PC World were throwing an iPhone against concrete repeatedly, and it didn't "crack", or even scratch, I don't see how a "fall" would destroy an iPhone.

IPhone is similar to iPod, so the process for iPhone is probably similar.

....

Make Appt with Apple Store Genius Bar, walk in, you will walk out the same day with an essentially new iPod. Same day, not 1 day, not 2 days, not 3 days. SAME DAY.I'm not so sure that there will be replacement/refurb iPhones in-store, according to what I was told by a Genius -- that all replacements come from the depot.

The battery couldn't cost more than $20. In 6 months I predict 3rd party services charging $40 plus shipping to replace iPhone batteries.

Too bad it'll almost certainly void the warranty.

The main problem is that Apple solders the battery in there--doubling the replacement time.The battery is covered by the warranty. Furthermore, you're probably one of those people who'd complain if the battery wasn't soldered because dropping it or bumping it could disconnect or weaken the contacts.

Looks pretty straightforward to get to the battery....pry off the black back part, unscrew 4 screws, slide off the black. Done. There's the battery. I don't see what the big deal is. If you've taken apart any electronics before, taking apart the iPhone would not be very difficult.Considering that 80% of people look at you funny when you tell them to right-click something (yes, this includes PC-users), I wouldn't assume that Joe Schmo can, should, or would even want to crack open their $600 iPhone and attack it with a soldering iron.

When I got my first Powerbook, I was all like "Gooooooooooooodbye crashes!" and then it crashed over time, it froze, etc, it's inevitable, but the fact that I purchased the machine mainly because Apple sold it to me as if it was a vaccination for the world's most evil disease was now like a sting in my side. It still doesn't crash as much as my PC (which is better spec), and my macbook crashes a fair bit too.WTF are you doing to your Macs?!? Or, when Firefox crashes, do you blame Apple for it? I run Final Cut Studio 1, the CS2 suite, a couple of high-spec games and a bunch of other demanding apps on my MacBook Pro, usually at least a couple of them simultaneously and I haven't had a kernel panic in more than a year, according to my system logs.

I think you simply enjoy trolling.

LimeiBook86
Jul 2, 2007, 06:21 PM
Well, the iPod battery replacement was $99 for two years. Now it's $59. Third parties have always been cheaper.

Yes, that is true. I don't think the price of the battery replacement for the iPhone will always be that high. It will probably (and hopefully) go down. Also there are third-party dock connector adapters which work on the iPod where you can put in four AA batteries and it will charge the device. I have tested one of these from Maxell and it works with my iPhone, I'll be talking about it in my blog shortly. :D

poe diddley
Jul 2, 2007, 06:44 PM
yeah actually i DID read the thread.
and i still don't want one.
nothing you said about my post debunked anything i said.
yes, ipod batteries are the same way.
but if you had actually read the thread you would see that other people brought up the fact that ipods aren't used the same way. i personally haven't used my ipod in over a month, so i could care less about it's battery. if it goes bad, i'll send it off for a new one.
but a phone is a very personal device that many people rely on for daily things. most people i know don't have a land line that they can use while they wait on their battery to get switched.
and if you have to rent a phone then that's $30 extra dollars. and yes, i think $108 is a silly price to pay to switch your battery and have a temporary phone.
i personally don't like the idea of sending my phone off anywhere, and i doubt i'm the only one that feels that way.
i have been a mac lover for over 12 years, and i will probably prefer apple products for many years to come, but i feel like the battery issue is a real one. i wouldn't buy a phone that i can't switch the battery out myself no matter how cool it is. yes the iphone is awesome, but i doubt i'm the only one that feels like the battery issue is no good.
it's a telephone, not an ipod. i don't want to send my phone off for any amount of time. if my phone that i use now breaks, i take it to verizon and they give me a new one. i don't have to be without or pay for a rental phone while i wait for mine to be fixed.
and it's great that i probably won't have to replace the battery in the life of the phone, but how do you know that for sure? how can you guess anyone's usage and individual circumstances?
and yes, i think it's silly that apple designed it that way. and you're not really thinking if you believe that it wasn't designed that way on purpose. why make it easy to swap out the battery when we can make a few dollars off the replacement? the ipods are like that so no one will care. people like you will defend the fact that the ipod is the same way, but almost 90% of all other cell phone batteries can be switched by a child.
9 times out of 10 i agree with apple's designs, and i don't think it's that big of a deal on the ipod, but i do think it's a big deal on a phone.
i'm sorry that you don't agree with my reasons for thinking the battery issue is absurd, but this is a discussion forum for everyone to voice their ideas on this new product. i think it could be better. it's awesome that apple designs such sleek and functional products. and to some degree i agree that part of it comes from the fact that there aren't screwholes and clips and such. i agree the battery should be internal instead of a normal plastic popout. however, i DON'T think that it's such a great idea that a user with hardware knowledge be forced to send theirs off to swap the battery. if apple spent the $ it could be offered in house at an apple store or any at&t phone store. they would just need to supply the necesary tools and instructions to the employees of each store.
i dunno the solution. but i don't think you really realize why it's a problem or why most people don't like the idea.

NEXT TIME try not being such a smart alek when you reply to someone's post

Wow.

Did you read ANYTHING in this thread?

- You probably won't even need to replace the battery in the life of the phone (i.e., how long you keep it before replacing it). But if you do:

- You can get a loaner iPhone while your battery is being replaced, which will look, act, and behave exactly like your own iPhone, with all its data, after one sync with iTunes...no downtime and no time without your iPhone.

- You can receive a replacement phone via an Apple Retail store on-demand; again, one sync with iTunes and it's "your" phone.

- What's that? They don't even give you your own phone back?!?! No; calm down. They give you a replacement phone that is either new, or a factory-refurbished phone in a brand-new enclosure (so it looks brand new) with its own 90-day service warranty.

- This service is only needed once the phone is out of warranty or AppleCare, otherwise the battery is covered.

- This is the way it's been on iPods since November 2003.

- This isn't so Apple can "make a few bucks" on battery replacements. They'd prefer to never have to replace the batteries at all. It also isn't so people are forced to get new iPhones. It's an engineering decision, pure and simple, that allows for the phone to be considerably thinner (likely by a couple millimeters or more, and yes, that is a big difference) and allows for its sleek, untarnished appearance. Obviously some people will insist it's a way for Apple to make money or that this is planned obsolescence, or that they only reason they offer a battery replacement is for PR purposes. (Sigh.)

- As to your "pay to rent one" comment, just pretend that the battery replacement service is $108 instead of $79, then. Simple. If you think it's too expensive, that's one thing. But so are many OEM batteries. The bottom line is Apple WILL replace your battery, and you DO NOT have to go without a phone. It's not like you have to replace the battery every other month. If anything, it's more like every other year (if that). The iPod battery replacement service was $99 for years. Yeah, people complained. But then, it didn't stop 100 million iPods from being sold, did it? Has it occurred to you that part of the reason things like iPods and the iPhone are so desirable is that they're not covered with battery compartment doors and screwholes and bulked up with all the crap needed to get at the battery? Even if it's a half an ounce or a couple millimeters thicker, that's a lot in these devices.

Next time, try reading the thread before you respond.

ChrisA
Jul 2, 2007, 07:27 PM
Ok so AFTER we spend out 500+ tax and 600+tax which is alot to begin with. They now tell us that the batter replacement is gong to cost us 80 dollars + this is ridculous. Apple is trying to milk its customers for everything its worth. The phone itself is overprice for what it can do right now and they wanna charge nearly 20% of phone price for a battery replacement. This is seriously making consider switching back to old my carrier.

The phone is not that expensive. Other phones seem cheap because the phone company is selling them at a loss so they can sell you a service plan. People are signing contracts for $60 per month for 24 months. That's $1,440.00 just for the "cheap" plan many will sign up for the $2,400 plan. If you spend $90 for a new battery every 18 months. it adds just over a buck a week to the package. Pocket chance to a guy who is tied to a $2,400 contract. In fact the whole phone is "pocket change" compared to the contract.

wWho cares what a battery replacement price it today. No one will need to buy a battery for some time. By then the price will be different and there will be many other options, some walk-in services will spring up, some eBay stores will offer the battery and so on. Apple only sets the high end of the price of thebattery.

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 07:30 PM
yeah actually i DID read the thread.

Apparently not good enough.

You keep saying you don't want to send your phone off somewhere because it's such a personal thing (which is debatable, but whatever).

Well, you don't even get your own phone back. You get a new one, or one in a new enclosure.

I imagine you'll think that's even worse, but it kind of proves to me you either aren't reading or aren't comprehending what's going on here.

and i still don't want one.

I don't care if you don't want one; that wasn't the purpose of my response.

It was to point out to others that:

1. There is a way to get the battery replaced, and

2. Many OEM battery replacements are expensive, and

3. There will be mechanisms for third parties to replace the battery.

Yeah, I "get it"...people want to freak out because the battery is sealed in, as if they'll be replacing the battery once a month. Most people won't replace it AT ALL in the time the own the product, and if they do, you get what is essentially a new phone back. I've already heard the bazillion tired arguments about this with iPod.

I just think it's humorous that the only reason, or the primary reason, some people aren't getting the phone is because of this, when chances are they will never replace the battery. Sure, everyone can come up with a counterargument. But the reasons for making the iPhone AND iPod this way is a tradeoff for size and appearance, and it has paid off with the iPod in spades.

Yes, the iPhone is a different product than iPod...so if iPod's battery replacement program is acceptable to you, it doesn't follow that iPhone's isn't, especially since there is a way for you to have a phone that looks, acts, and appears exactly like your own phone, with all the data intact (after one sync with iTunes) in the meantime, and then immediately swap back when the replacement arrives. I'm sorry, your logic simply doesn't follow.

Your only argument, then, is that the battery replacement is too expensive. Any other arguments (you'd send an iPod off, but not an iPhone...? or that a phone is somehow more sentimental or personal than an iPod) don't follow your own chain of logic.

If you don't want the phone, don't get it. If you don't want an iPhone because it's doesn't have a user replaceable battery, great. But at least understand that your reasoning makes no sense IF the battery replacement is acceptable for iPod. (I can hear it now: "But the iPod is a music player...this is my phone!" Yeah. Which is why you get a loaner that will be exactly like your own phone in every way in the meantime. "But I want my own phone back!!" Well, you don't get your own iPod back, either, yet that's ok, but not with a phone? Jeez. It's no wonder I feel like I'm repeating myself.)

BrianKonarsMac
Jul 2, 2007, 07:33 PM
I suppose I know who this iPhone is targeted toward - rich people.

5-600 for a cell phone wasn't enough of a tip to begin with?

Cedars1974
Jul 2, 2007, 07:33 PM
You know maybe it's just me but what percentage of you really have ever kept a cellphone for 2 years or longer? I mean I really don't see not upgrading within 2 years.

carfac
Jul 2, 2007, 07:33 PM
Since Apple provides a loaner iPhone (http://www.apple.com/support/iphone/service/faq/#faq11) ...

I find your word chose just a bit disingenuous... Apple provides a rental service, but they certainly do not provide a loaner. You are already paying a hefty fee for the battery service , and are required to be under Apple Care too. I think the notion that Apple is "providing a loaner" implies they are furnishing something gratis, which is certainly not the case. Battery replacement with loaner is 120 buck!

DiamondMac
Jul 2, 2007, 07:37 PM
Dude, it's "cycles," not "charges." Big difference - and a common misunderstanding, especially on these forums.

"Cycles" mean from a full charge down to completely drained.
Most people do not cycle a battery in a single day. Like me, most users charge their devices on a daily basis (before going to bed?). Thus, they are not hitting the equivalent of a cycle until 3-4 days (roughly). That's where they get the 3-4 year battery life claim.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

HTH

Great post. Answered my questions.

carfac
Jul 2, 2007, 07:38 PM
You know maybe it's just me but what percentage of you really have ever kept a cellphone for 2 years or longer? I mean I really don't see not upgrading within 2 years.

Most cel phones do go through a less than 2 year cycle, because you can easily get a new one for free. I do not see ATT giving iPhones away free. I think the more premium phoines- craberrys and such- are kept a bit longer than the trow aways, on the whole (but I have NO data to back that up. I just know if I paid 2, 3 or 600 for something, I wuld not throw it out in 1.5 years just to drop 2,3 0r 6 bills on a new one when all that is wrong is a battery).

If this were a cel phone, that might be a good argument. But it is an iPod, too... how many people keep their iPods longer than two years?

My 2cents

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 07:44 PM
I find your word chose just a bit disingenuous... Apple provides a rental service, but they certainly do not provide a loaner. You are already paying a hefty fee for the battery service , and are required to be under Apple Care too. I think the notion that Apple is "providing a loaner" implies they are furnishing something gratis, which is certainly not the case. Battery replacement with loaner is 120 buck!

I've already said that the fee for this service is $29. Whether someone in an informal forum setting is calling it a "loaner" or a "rental" is beside the point if the service isn't being misrepresented as free. I've said several times that it costs $29, and the web site cited in the story summary, which I operate, also says it is $29. I don't think that's disingenuous.

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 07:47 PM
Most cel phones do go through a less than 2 year cycle, because you can easily get a new one for free. I do not see ATT giving iPhones away free. I think the more premium phoines- craberrys and such- are kept a bit longer than the trow aways, on the whole (but I have NO data to back that up. I just know if I paid 2, 3 or 600 for something, I wuld not throw it out in 1.5 years just to drop 2,3 0r 6 bills on a new one when all that is wrong is a battery).

If this were a cel phone, that might be a good argument. But it is an iPod, too... how many people keep their iPods longer than two years?

My 2cents

I think that the point is valid: many people won't even need to replace the battery at all in the time they personally keep the product. Some will. For those with a need to do so, there is a way to replace the battery. I'm having a hard time understanding the people who are outraged about this.

Again, the desire to be able to swap batteries daily is a different issue entirely, but often that concern isn't even valid (i.e., people *think* they need to be able to do this, and in fact never would need to). The only argument that really makes sense is for people who legitimately need to swap the battery in between charges. Any other other argument for not getting the phone is fine, but some of the battery replacement arguments make little to no sense.

carfac
Jul 2, 2007, 07:55 PM
I've already said that the fee for this service is $29. Whether someone in an informal forum setting is calling it a "loaner" or a "rental" is beside the point if the service isn't being misrepresented as free. I've said several times that it costs $29, and the web site cited in the story summary, which I operate, also says it is $29. I don't think that's disingenuous.

I just took issue with your word "loaner". Loaner IMPLIES free, which this is definitely not.

From Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loaner):

something, as an automobile or appliance, that is lent esp. to replace an item being serviced or repaired

(Lent, btw, is defined as "to grant the use of (something) on condition that it or its equivalent will be returned")

I see that cost in NOT in either official definition, so I am perhaps off base; I apologize Dave.

I appreciate that you spelled out the cost of the Loaner, I just think- to my mind- loan is an improper word in this instance- this is a rental.

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 07:57 PM
I just took issue with your word "loaner". Loaner IMPLIES free, which this is definitely not.

From Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loaner):

something, as an automobile or appliance, that is lent esp. to replace an item being serviced or repaired

(Lent, btw, is defined as "to grant the use of (something) on condition that it or its equivalent will be returned")

I appreciate that you spelled out the cost of the Loaner, I just think loan is an inproper word in this instance- this is a rental.

Fair enough; I thought you were saying that I was personally trying to imply the service was free by glossing over the cost. I do agree that loaner usually implies free (though sometimes there are service or handling fees for loaners).

carfac
Jul 2, 2007, 08:02 PM
Fair enough; I thought you were saying that I was personally trying to imply the service was free by glossing over the cost. I do agree that loaner usually implies free (though sometimes there are service or handling fees for loaners).

Dave- Thanks for understanding. I just took issue with the word. Sorry, a bit picky I guess... so so many people here are sometimes! :D

Regarding the other issue- I guess we shall just disagree on that.

D

chatin
Jul 2, 2007, 08:09 PM
Poor battery replacement is a part of Apple culture... all the way back to the Apple Lisa, where the battery was welded on.

daveschroeder
Jul 2, 2007, 08:22 PM
Poor battery replacement is a part of Apple culture... all the way back to the Apple Lisa, where the battery was welded on.

"Part of Apple culture" ... *Chuckle*

No, this was not an oversight or an accident. It was a conscious design decision. (And no, it's not to make people buy new equipment.) Judging from the success of the iPod, it is a fine choice. No, not directly because the battery isn't user replaceable, but because of what not having a user replaceable battery allows iPod to be from an engineering and design perspective.

mustang_dvs
Jul 2, 2007, 09:34 PM
I find your word chose just a bit disingenuous... Apple provides a rental service, but they certainly do not provide a loaner. You are already paying a hefty fee for the battery service , and are required to be under Apple Care too. I think the notion that Apple is "providing a loaner" implies they are furnishing something gratis, which is certainly not the case. Battery replacement with loaner is 120 buck!Stop spreading FUD.

If you are under warranty (i.e., in the first year of ownership), there is no fee for battery replacement. If you are under AppleCare (i.e., you paid $69 and are in the second year of ownership) there is no fee for battery replacement.

Yes, the Service iPhone costs $29. If you can live without a cell phone for up to 3 days, your under warranty replacement is free. If you can't live without a cell phone for 3 days (presumably, a business user) it'll cost you $29 for a temporary iPhone, or just hold onto your old GSM/GPRS phone and use that for 3 days.


Most cel phones do go through a less than 2 year cycle, because you can easily get a new one for free. I do not see ATT giving iPhones away free. I think the more premium phoines- craberrys and such- are kept a bit longer than the trow aways, on the whole (but I have NO data to back that up. I just know if I paid 2, 3 or 600 for something, I wuld not throw it out in 1.5 years just to drop 2,3 0r 6 bills on a new one when all that is wrong is a battery).

If this were a cel phone, that might be a good argument. But it is an iPod, too... how many people keep their iPods longer than two years?I haven't bought a phone under contract in 6 years. In that time, I've purchased two V60's, and an E815, all at full price. Not a single one of them broke or needed service. The only reason I replaced them was for additional features in the new model.

I've bought five iPods, (a 1st Gen 5GB, 3rd Gen 20GB, 4th Gen 60GB photo, a 1GB 1st Gen Shuffle and a 1st Gen 4GB Nano), all of them still work, all of them still have their original batteries and all of them still hold at least 90% of their original charge. All of them, at some point or another, were used daily, in an urban environment (D.C.). Oddly enough, take care of stuff and it keeps working.

Yankees 4 Life
Jul 2, 2007, 10:27 PM
Dude, it's "cycles," not "charges." Big difference - and a common misunderstanding, especially on these forums.

"Cycles" mean from a full charge down to completely drained.
Most people do not cycle a battery in a single day. Like me, most users charge their devices on a daily basis (before going to bed?). Thus, they are not hitting the equivalent of a cycle until 3-4 days (roughly). That's where they get the 3-4 year battery life claim.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

HTH

This guy, and the guy who made that manifying glass on my iphone deserve the nobel prize! Someone tell people that it is cycles... why would 300 charges suffice for a fone... cmon guys lets use common sense here

kcroy
Jul 2, 2007, 10:42 PM
Sounds fine to me. Never had a battery problem with my iPods. I really, really like this iPhone. Worth EVERY penny.

Island Dog
Jul 2, 2007, 11:07 PM
lets hope they don't start charging for software updates.

poe diddley
Jul 2, 2007, 11:26 PM
seriously, you just don't get it do you?
no one i know wants to send off their phone to have the battery replaced. it's retarded. if it's gotta be soldered in, then at least teach the techs at the apple store or at&t store how to do the repair in shop to avoid sending it anywhere.
most people don't want to give up their personal phone for any amount of time, because quite simply, there's personal stuff in there. it's a communications device, and someone else having it means they have access to all your numbers, emails, text messages, etc.
i'm aware that the sim card is swappable, but what about the other internal drive?
the fact that you seem to be fighting everyone who feels this way is really crazy. would you like your personal computer to be sent off to be worked on? probably not, but if you had to you would. so would i, but i wouldn't like it.
my point is that by design, you MUST send your phone in to have a battery replaced. this is silly to me, and most normal people. i don't think it's that big of a deal on an ipod because it's just music and videos, stuff i can replace. this may not be the case with info on one's phone. who's lost a cell phone before or broken one beyond repair? was it a pain in the rear to find all those numbers again? unless you are poindexter and write down every number you ever get, it sucks. and they ALWAYS tell you at the cell phone store that it's no big deal, just swap out the sim card and all your stuff will be there. i personally lost info this way, and i know several people who experienced the same problem, either due to an incompetent cell phone store employee, or just bad luck.

nobody wants to give up their phone to simply swap a battery. i'm sorry you don't understand. and yes, i think spending over $100 to do it in order to have a temporary phone sucks.

and that's not the sole reason why i think some people are saying they don't want an iphone, but it is a contributing factor for those that know about it..

the biggest factor for me is that they are using at&t which has terrible coverage in my area. would i get one if they used another provider? maybe, but there are other factors.

i don't think anyone is saying that the battery issue is worst thing in the world, but it does make you wonder why they made it that way. a simple internal plug would be sufficient instead of soldering it so it has to be sent off.

i love the idea of the iphone, and later on i might get one if i move or they offer it to other provider, but for now i think they have some kinks to work out. maybe they don't care, and maybe the battery thing won't mean that much, but i still think they could have made it differently to avoid having to send it off, and yes, they could have done the same with the ipod.

if you don't get the logic, that's fine, but don't second guess people because they have personal feelings about giving up their stuff to be sent off.

and yes, if i didn't get my phone back after sending it off i'd probably be pissed. who wants a refurb? i'd rather have my phone back with a new battery than a refurb with a new case. at least i know where it's been and what, if any problems it may or may not have. if you take your car in for service, would it be ok if they gave you a refurbished car instead of your original vehicle? probably not if you have half a brain.



Apparently not good enough.

You keep saying you don't want to send your phone off somewhere because it's such a personal thing (which is debatable, but whatever).

Well, you don't even get your own phone back. You get a new one, or one in a new enclosure.

I imagine you'll think that's even worse, but it kind of proves to me you either aren't reading or aren't comprehending what's going on here.



I don't care if you don't want one; that wasn't the purpose of my response.

It was to point out to others that:

1. There is a way to get the battery replaced, and

2. Many OEM battery replacements are expensive, and

3. There will be mechanisms for third parties to replace the battery.

Yeah, I "get it"...people want to freak out because the battery is sealed in, as if they'll be replacing the battery once a month. Most people won't replace it AT ALL in the time the own the product, and if they do, you get what is essentially a new phone back. I've already heard the bazillion tired arguments about this with iPod.

I just think it's humorous that the only reason, or the primary reason, some people aren't getting the phone is because of this, when chances are they will never replace the battery. Sure, everyone can come up with a counterargument. But the reasons for making the iPhone AND iPod this way is a tradeoff for size and appearance, and it has paid off with the iPod in spades.

Yes, the iPhone is a different product than iPod...so if iPod's battery replacement program is acceptable to you, it doesn't follow that iPhone's isn't, especially since there is a way for you to have a phone that looks, acts, and appears exactly like your own phone, with all the data intact (after one sync with iTunes) in the meantime, and then immediately swap back when the replacement arrives. I'm sorry, your logic simply doesn't follow.

Your only argument, then, is that the battery replacement is too expensive. Any other arguments (you'd send an iPod off, but not an iPhone...? or that a phone is somehow more sentimental or personal than an iPod) don't follow your own chain of logic.

If you don't want the phone, don't get it. If you don't want an iPhone because it's doesn't have a user replaceable battery, great. But at least understand that your reasoning makes no sense IF the battery replacement is acceptable for iPod. (I can hear it now: "But the iPod is a music player...this is my phone!" Yeah. Which is why you get a loaner that will be exactly like your own phone in every way in the meantime. "But I want my own phone back!!" Well, you don't get your own iPod back, either, yet that's ok, but not with a phone? Jeez. It's no wonder I feel like I'm repeating myself.)

daveschroeder
Jul 3, 2007, 07:38 AM
seriously, you just don't get it do you?

Touché...

no one i know wants to send off their phone to have the battery replaced. it's retarded. if it's gotta be soldered in, then at least teach the techs at the apple store or at&t store how to do the repair in shop to avoid sending it anywhere.

Apple does not want to manage training for thousands of employees at AT&T and Apple stores when it can manage the process centrally, so it can ensure quality in the process.

most people don't want to give up their personal phone for any amount of time, because quite simply, there's personal stuff in there. it's a communications device, and someone else having it means they have access to all your numbers, emails, text messages, etc.

This is the kind of misunderstanding of the process that is the problem:

You just erase all data on the phone before it's sent in.

Open iTunes. Click "Restore". Done.

i'm aware that the sim card is swappable, but what about the other internal drive?

...

One button click and ALL personal data is off the phone permanently.

How difficult is this?

the fact that you seem to be fighting everyone who feels this way is really crazy. would you like your personal computer to be sent off to be worked on? probably not, but if you had to you would. so would i, but i wouldn't like it.

Thousands of people send their computers to vendors to be worked on with their data intact on the machine, but hopefully backed up.

But since the iPhone battery replacement doesn't even return the same phone (and even if it did), and all it takes is one sync with iTunes to get back exactly to where you were before, the only thing you have to do is purge all personal data from the phone before you send it in.

Again,

1. iTunes
2. Restore
3. There is no step 3.

my point is that by design, you MUST send your phone in to have a battery replaced. this is silly to me, and most normal people. i don't think it's that big of a deal on an ipod because it's just music and videos, stuff i can replace. this may not be the case with info on one's phone.

1. iTunes
2. Restore
3. There is no step 3.

All of your personal information is gone. One sync with iTunes returns everything to the replacement phone, and anything that's been done with the loaner/service phone in the meantime. Oops, but they might have all your personal information from the service phone, too!

Oh, wait. You can just click one button before you return that, and all of your personal information is gone from there as well.

who's lost a cell phone before or broken one beyond repair? was it a pain in the rear to find all those numbers again? unless you are poindexter and write down every number you ever get, it sucks. and they ALWAYS tell you at the cell phone store that it's no big deal, just swap out the sim card and all your stuff will be there. i personally lost info this way, and i know several people who experienced the same problem, either due to an incompetent cell phone store employee, or just bad luck.

This is *completely* irrelevant to the discussion.

1. iPhone doesn't store anything except the phone number, essentially the phone's "identity", on the SIM. All other info is on the internal memory.

2. There is no danger of Apple "losing" your data because:

- It's ALL in iTunes on your computer, which it should be synced with, and

- Your computer should always be backed up.

3. Apple cannot gain access to your data if you simply do a software restore on your phone before it's sent in. Apple even *instructs* you to do this, for heaven's sake.

nobody wants to give up their phone to simply swap a battery. i'm sorry you don't understand. and yes, i think spending over $100 to do it in order to have a temporary phone sucks.

1. "Nobody" is provably wrong, so that already invalidates that part of your argument.

2. You're not even getting your own phone back, as I've said repeatedly. You're getting back a replacement iPhone in the same exact way that it has happened with iPod since November 2003, which you have already said is acceptable.

and that's not the sole reason why i think some people are saying they don't want an iphone, but it is a contributing factor for those that know about it..

I'm sure you understand that if people are making the decision based on false assumptions like "I won't have a phone in the meantime" (wrong) or "Apple can see all my personal data" (wrong) or "I won't have a phone with all of my own personal information, contacts, etc. in the meantime" (wrong) or "If the battery only lasts 300-400 charges then I have to replace the battery every 300-400 days!" (wrong), etc., then it's not realy a valid reasoning process that is being used.

If you simply disagree with the decision to make it with a sealed battery, and fully understand that you'll probably never have to replace the battery if you keep the phone for a typical amount of time, and understand that there is no way Apple can access your personal information if you perform a restore on the phone before sending it in, that's fine.

the biggest factor for me is that they are using at&t which has terrible coverage in my area. would i get one if they used another provider? maybe, but there are other factors.

Fine. Valid reason.

i don't think anyone is saying that the battery issue is worst thing in the world, but it does make you wonder why they made it that way. a simple internal plug would be sufficient instead of soldering it so it has to be sent off.

Soldering isn't way it has to be sent off, and it wasn't done this way so it *had* to be sent off. Certain models of iPod already have the battery soldered.

This doesn't really make sense, though, since solder or no, no iPod battery is officially "user replaceable", either. They're all varying degrees of difficulty. And I already explained why Apple designed all iPods and the iPhone this way. Some people might not like it, but the humorous thing is that the vast majority of people generally bitching about it have never actually had to (and probably never will) replace a battery in an iPod or iPhone during the lifetime that it is in their possession in use.

i love the idea of the iphone, and later on i might get one if i move or they offer it to other provider, but for now i think they have some kinks to work out. maybe they don't care, and maybe the battery thing won't mean that much, but i still think they could have made it differently to avoid having to send it off, and yes, they could have done the same with the ipod.

...which would have added size and weight to the device, as well as AT LEAST a small external indication of a door. You may think a half-an-ounce and a couple of millimeters in thickness or a half-hour less in battery life are no big deal. But it's a HUGE deal, and the design and engineering decision to make a sealed unit is part of what makes the iPod and iPhone so small and sleek and clean in appearance. That, in turn, is a huge factor in their consumer attractiveness, and thus their market success. Apple has eliminated size, bulk, weight, and complexity by using sealed battery. Does it suck when and if you need to replace the battery? Yes. I agree myself. HOWEVER, I also understand the tradeoff: I have a smaller and lighter device because of it. Would some people take a heavier and larger device, possibly also with less battery life because of the compromises that have to be made in internal design to accommodate a "user accessible" battery? I'm sure some would. Many wouldn't. And since it's something that needs to be done so very infrequently by people, if at all in the time they own/use the product, hopefully you can at least understand why Apple did it. It's not to screw the customer or force people into buying new equipment.

if you don't get the logic, that's fine, but don't second guess people because they have personal feelings about giving up their stuff to be sent off.

You said it was acceptable for iPod.

iPhone uses the EXACT SAME MECHANISM to replace the battery as iPod.

You somehow don't think it's acceptable for iPhone.

EVERY SINGLE REASON you have come up with (outlined above) is incorrect.

So yeah, that's why I'm taking issue with your reasoning.

and yes, if i didn't get my phone back after sending it off i'd probably be pissed. who wants a refurb? i'd rather have my phone back with a new battery than a refurb with a new case. at least i know where it's been and what, if any problems it may or may not have. if you take your car in for service, would it be ok if they gave you a refurbished car instead of your original vehicle? probably not if you have half a brain.

Ahh, the old "I don't know where it's been" argument. These are all circuit board components that have been sealed inside other phones. Each component is factory tested. Some are replaced with new components. The entire external physical enclosure is new. Anything that has the slightest hint of anything being wrong is discarded. So it looks physically new, has factory tested and QAed components, and has its own service warranty.

Additionally, you already said the replacement process for iPod was acceptable, and this is identical.

I didn't say you couldn't think that battery replacement mechanism sucked. But it's logically inconsistent to say that it's fine for your iPod but not for your phone. All of the reasons you say the phone is "different" (not wanting to be without a phone while it's sent in, not wanting Apple to have your personal data) are invalid. That's what I'm taking issue with.

If you think the battery replacement program sucks, great. But when you think it sucks for reasons that simply aren't true (e.g., the personal data argument), then you can see why I'm correcting your misunderstandings, so other people don't mistakenly believe you're actually correct.

Let me be very clear: if you personally just don't like the fact that battery is sealed, that is fine. But once you said that the process was okay for iPod but not for iPhone, that's what I found curious. The other problem is that misinformation (like other people believing that Apple will have their personal information, not realizing it's a literally 5 second job on the main iTunes screen to erase the phone) doesn't help others formulate correct decision processes about the phone. Wouldn't you agree it's best for people to actually have accurate information on which to base their decisions?

When I started http://ipodbatteryfaq.com it wasn't because I thought the battery replacement program was the greatest thing on earth. It was because I saw people making decisions based on things like:

1. Once the iPod battery dies, you have to throw it away and get a new one
2. Apple intentionally used "bad" batteries so people would need new iPods sooner
3. iPod batteries are somehow different or "worse" than any other li-ion battery
4. There is no way to replace an iPod battery yourself
5. The battery needs to be replaced every 18 months
6. There is no easy way to get all your songs back onto the replacement iPod
7. Etc.

And now I'm starting to see the same things with iPhone...

1. You will have to be without an iPhone for several days
2. A third party will have access to all of your private and personal information
3. Even if I get a loaner phone, I won't be able to add any contacts or songs in the meantime
4. I'll need to replace the battery every 300-400 days
5. Apple could easily have made the battery replaceable while maintaining the exact shape, apperance, size, and weight of the current iPhone
6. My personal information might be lost if I have to send in the phone
7. Etc.

I'd hope that you value the idea of people actually having correct information when they make their decisions.

oscuh
Jul 3, 2007, 08:04 AM
it's retarded.

I think the use of this phrase repeatedly "is retarded"

electronboy
Jul 3, 2007, 09:37 AM
I love :apple: products but do not like the constant 'fleecing' of its customers. I will NOT buy an iPhone until the battery is user replaceable. :(

Now we know why its soldered to the logic board. So they can send it in for $85 AND charge you $29 to RENT a replacement phone. RIDICULOUS! :mad:

I'm sure its a marvelous device, but not with a 2-year contract at FULL price and with the high cost of ownership relating to the battery.

elistan
Jul 3, 2007, 09:44 AM
I thought I'd throw in a personal opinion and anecdotal experience.

I have a second generation iPod - the "click wheel" model, I think it's called. I don't even remember how long I've had it - three or four years maybe? I don't use it every day, and I have no idea how many charge cycles its gone through. But there's plenty of capacity in the battery to get me through a full day at work - which admittedly doesn't involve constant use from 8am to 5pm. I haven't done an endurance test from full charge to empty, but it certainly has plenty of juice for my needs after these few years.

I'll be charging the iPhone much more regularly due to a different usage patternn, but based on my iPod experience I'm very hopeful. We'll see.

Regarding the replacement program - I'm not worried about anything regarding the data on my phone. The cost is a bit high, sure - free would be ideal :) - but I really like the clean, sealed exterior of my phone.

daveschroeder
Jul 3, 2007, 09:50 AM
I love :apple: products but do not like the constant 'fleecing' of its customers. I will NOT buy an iPhone until the battery is user replaceable. :(

This is not done to "fleece" customers; that implies it was specifically and only done to get money from customers and for no other reason. That is 100% incorrect. See my numerous previous posts in this thread to learn part of the reasons all iPods and iPhone are designed this way. (Hint: it is not to "fleece" customers.)

Now we know why its soldered to the logic board. So they can send it in for $85 AND charge you $29 to RENT a replacement phone. RIDICULOUS! :mad:

Some iPod batteries already are soldered. This has not been a problem with iPods.

I'm sure its a marvelous device, but not with a 2-year contract at FULL price and with the high cost of ownership relating to the battery.

The two year contract assumes you actually want to use the device is a phone, meaning this is a cost that will always be present. So that's irrelevant, since you'd have to pay something similar for any smartphone with a data plan.

The "high cost of ownership relating to the battery" is ridiculous, since many smartphone batteries are already over $50 for the OEM/official battery. This is effectively $108. But it's something you *might never have to do* in the time you own/use the product, and if you do, is a $50-60 difference spread over two or more years really that big of a deal? If you think it is, fine. I'm just pointing out the reality.

thejadedmonkey
Jul 3, 2007, 09:56 AM
I've bought five iPods, (a 1st Gen 5GB, 3rd Gen 20GB, 4th Gen 60GB photo, a 1GB 1st Gen Shuffle and a 1st Gen 4GB Nano), all of them still work, all of them still have their original batteries and all of them still hold at least 90% of their original charge. All of them, at some point or another, were used daily, in an urban environment (D.C.). Oddly enough, take care of stuff and it keeps working.

I've had my ipod since 2003, and when you use it every day, it needs a new battery, that's just how batteries work. I'm on my 3rd battery. My first iPod from 2001 is on it's 2nd battery. If you take care of stuff (and replace their battery) they just keep working.

strum
Jul 3, 2007, 10:09 AM
I hear that ATT will have free iPhone Loaners, but it will take them 5 days to activate, so you will already have your iPhone back from Apple repair, before the loaner will turn on... ;)

oscuh
Jul 3, 2007, 10:26 AM
All of you people need to stop whining. If your arguments held any real weight, you'd have the same argument that your car battery should never wear out!

"Well, I just spent $20K on a new car, whaddya mean in 300-500 cycles I'll have to replace the battery!? And PAY to replace it? Preposterous!!"

Granted, i know that a battery in a car doesn't serve the exact same function as a battery in an iPhone, but a battery is a battery is a battery.

THEY WEAR OUT. GET OVER IT.

Do you really think it's going to change anything at this point? If you don't like it, don't buy an iPhone.

daveschroeder
Jul 3, 2007, 10:38 AM
I hear that ATT will have free iPhone Loaners, but it will take them 5 days to activate, so you will already have your iPhone back from Apple repair, before the loaner will turn on... ;)

I know you're just joking, but this raises a point some people may be concerned about (e.g., will the loaner really work right away, etc.)

The answer is that once the phone is activated, when you move the SIM to a loaner (or any other AT&T or unlocked phone), it will INSTANTLY start working as your phone, with your phone number, voicemail, etc. No activation hassles, no worries.

One sync with iTunes puts ALL of your data (if desired) on the loaner phone in the meantime.

elistan
Jul 3, 2007, 11:15 AM
I know you're just joking, but this raises a point some people may be concerned about (e.g., will the loaner really work right away, etc.)

The answer is that once the phone is activated, when you move the SIM to a loaner (or any other AT&T or unlocked phone), it will INSTANTLY start working as your phone, with your phone number, voicemail, etc. No activation hassles, no worries.

One sync with iTunes puts ALL of your data (if desired) on the loaner phone in the meantime.

Yep - I can personally attest to this. Put old SIM into new phone, connect phone to iTunes to activate, and phone is ready to use in about 20 seconds. I had to put in my voicemail password to get that to work, and some of the settings like autolock time and password had to be redone, otherwise everything else got transferred over in the sync.

MrCrowbar
Jul 3, 2007, 12:30 PM
Wow, lot's of anger in this thread...

If you have to send in your Mac or iPhone, just make a backup (iPhone is backed up via iTunes) and swipe your hard drive before you hand it over. Just open disk utility, select the drive and delete it using the "35 passes" option. This overwrites the whole hard drive 35 times with random ones and zeros, enough even for the most paranoid people out there. Overwriting the drive with zeros once is easy to recover via software, anything more than that gets complicated and expensive. If you buy a VHS tape with a movie on it (old school, I know...) and record a black picture over it once, chances are you will still be able to make out the movie that was previously on it. It's similar for hard drives

Formating a drive doesn't erase your data, it just marks it up as available space, i.e. the system may overwrite it.

I don't know how exactly it is with flash memory like in small iPods and the iPhone, but I think there's no need to overwrite it that many times because it's not magnetic storage. Could be wrong though...

So if you don't want your personal data to be messed around with, back it up and wipe the drive on the device you're sending in. Don't forget to put a working OS on the wiped drive, else the tech people have to do that...

Maxx Power
Jul 3, 2007, 01:34 PM
This is simply the first generation of something so completely different than what is out there. It will always be more expensve at the git go. Like the original iPod. Not many could afford one at 500 bucks five years ago but now there are various price and size levels. The iPhone had to start somewhere and soon it will not be for just the "rich people." This is a amazing devise and the half miilion people using it now will help make it even better quickly with their comments, suggestions and complaints. Even if it does 80% of what it is suppose to do, it will be a huge success. Probably already satified 90% of the buyers or more.

Ahh, that's a bit inaccurate and misleading. You gotta realize that the original iPod had also higher quality parts such as 60mW headphone amplifier added to specifically drive low impedance headphones after the Wolfson CODEC. The (i believe) third generation on iPods have lost that low impedance headphone amplifier, along with swaps here and there for smaller integrated parts. Sound quality is compromised in the later gens of iPods.

And if you think that soon it will not for just the "rich people". I remind you, this is economic trickle theory, which hasn't worked for most on this planet. You can look that up if you are inclined.

Maxx Power
Jul 3, 2007, 01:36 PM
5-600 for a cell phone wasn't enough of a tip to begin with?

I wasn't talking about me. I was implying those people who saved or pawned to get enough money to buy it.

poe diddley
Jul 4, 2007, 03:46 PM
ok my first question is=do you work for apple?
if you don't i dunno know it seems like u think apple can do no wrong.
you have come back at every comment i have made like you designed the iphone yourself, and you're just P.O.'D that i don't think that sending off your phone to get the battery replaced is a great idea.
i don't get it, you just can't accept the fact that some people don't like this idea. there are other factors that influence me not wanting an iphone, and this is like 5% of the total.
it's barely a reason for me, but i still have the right to think it sucks. and i have to add that you are completely wrong about my idea for an internal plug for the battery instead of it being soldered in. have you ever seen the inside of a pro RC car? the batteries use a gigantic version of what i'm refferring to. i've seen these tiny plugs on pc parts. much smaller than fan plug, but same principal. i think my old cordless phone had a similar plug. you claim that it would "add size and weight" totally incorrect. the super small plug probably weighs about the same as a blob of solder, and wouldn't add any real size. i never said it should have an external detachable battery, so i'm not sure why you got the idea that i wanted that. my suggestion was, add the plug instead of the solder, then you can take it to an APPLE store (that way it would be "internal", as many apple stores have a tech dept, i know this as one of my good friends works in it). in addition, it would make it easier for some at&t stores to do the same. that way the customer walks in, gets a new battery installed by a "professional" and walks out with their same phone without having to wait. it can't be that hard to remove the case, as i'm sure there's some specialized tool.
and you are also confusing what i meant by the privacy issue. many people won't know about erasing their phone data, and some people won't be able to if their battery is indeed dead. so how are you gonna erase data off of a phone with a dead battery? sure, paranoid types will rush to the store as soon as their battery shows the first signs of death, but most normal people will procrastinate and do it when they have to.
i know for a fact that simply removing a sim card doesn't erase 100% of your data. i have an old LG right now in my drawer that i can pop the sim out, and still get my numbers off of when i fire it up. i can't use the phone to make a call, and it tells me that there is no sim present, but i can still get to my numbers. people don't want to send there phone books out to some tech dept they don't know so whoever can get into it. doesn't matter if it's apple or somebody else.
and although it isn't that difficult to switch out a sim to a loaner phone and sync your data, it's still an inconvenience, and you'll have to do it again once you get your phone or the refurb back from apple. that's way more steps than what i suggested.
walk into apple store with dead/dying battery. techie or apple employee switches out battery. boom. you walk out with same phone, no syncing, no switching to loaner, no waiting.
why is that such an insane concept to you? if the apple techs at the stores can do computer repairs then why not switch a battery? is it alien technology that apple doesn't want anyone to see? no way, it's just more profitable to charge for a loaner and the replacement. how much do you really think that battery is worth? i hope you don't think it really cost apple $80. and then they get to charge for the loaner phone to all the impatient people who simply can't live in this society without their cells. crazy people. not wanting to wait three days or more. what are they thinking? let's charge em $30 for their impatience.
and oh my god YES, i said it wasn't that big of a deal for the ipod, but they COULD have made it differently with no ill effects, just as i described above. but an ipod is a music/video device ONLY, not a personal phone. it's a lot different. to have to go thru all that bs to switch a battery for an essential device like a cell phone is crappy, i don't care what you can sync and how easy you think it is. it's 3 or 4 extra steps that you shouldn't HAVE to to take. a cell phone IS a personal device for a lot of people, and they don't want to have to get a refurb simply because they needed a new battery. why this is so difficult for you to accept is beyond my understanding. all i can guess is that you are simply IN LOVE with the iphone, and can't stand for anyone to blemish her reputation, even if what they say is true. APPLE COULD HAVE MADE IT EASIER TO REPLACE THE BATTERY SO YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO SEND IT OFF AND GO THRU THE EXTRA BS, WITHOUT ADDING SIZE OR WEIGHT OR CHANGING ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT ABOUT THE PRODUCT-A TINY PLUG INSTEAD OF SOLDER IS ALL IT WOULD HAVE TOOK. THAT WAS MY ONLY POINT BUT YOU CANNOT ACCEPT THIS IDEA APPARENTLY.


...

powerbook911
Jul 4, 2007, 07:42 PM
Within the first year, isn't the battery replaced for free like an ipod? and within 2 years with applecare?

rek71226
Jul 6, 2007, 07:11 PM
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?!!! you can spend $600+TAX on an iPhone that requires a monthly service rate, and THEN you complain about this? would you rather buy a new iphone when your battery dies?

and it's called a LANDLINE by the way... *snap*

I agree... Cost of doing business... I'm just glad they announced a program.

powerbook911
Jul 6, 2007, 09:10 PM
The thing is I imagine in year 1 the battery is covered under warranty like ipods, right?

lamina
Jul 6, 2007, 10:46 PM
The thing is I imagine in year 1 the battery is covered under warranty like ipods, right?

The whole battery thing is kind of touchy, since it's a 'consumable'. A battery's performance and longevity depends on how it's used.

I'm sure Apple has some guidelines on what constitutes a well- and poor-performing battery, based on the number of charge cycles and overall battery capacity.

johnee
Jul 9, 2007, 08:57 AM
HA HA HA HA HA!!!!


I TOLD YOU SO !!!!


i kept bringing this up and people said it wasn't a big deal they couldn't change the battery themselves.

I saw this coming for a long time, sorry none of you didn't.

powerbook911
Jul 10, 2007, 01:50 AM
The whole battery thing is kind of touchy, since it's a 'consumable'. A battery's performance and longevity depends on how it's used.

I'm sure Apple has some guidelines on what constitutes a well- and poor-performing battery, based on the number of charge cycles and overall battery capacity.

Very true. Nevertheless, ipods can have battery replaced in year 1, and 2 years, if you buy Applecare.

Madame Defarge
Jul 12, 2007, 12:35 AM
From Apple:

Your one-year warranty includes replacement coverage for a defective battery. You can extend your coverage to two years from the date of your iPhone purchase with the AppleCare Protection Plan for iPhone, which is expected to be available in summer 2007. During the plan’s coverage period, Apple will replace the battery if it drops below 50% of its original capacity. If it is out of warranty, Apple offers a battery replacement for $79, plus $6.95 shipping, subject to local tax. Apple disposes of your battery in an environmentally friendly manner.
......

It will be interesting to see how Apple deals with the issue of heavy usage, versus defective. With all of the battery issues people have been experiencing, I hope they err on the side of the consumer. $79 + $6.95 + sales tax, ain't chicken feed, especially when you have to give up your phone.


I've read that the reason why the battery has to be replaced by Apple, is that they're soldered on, and can't be removed by anyone except a specialist. That means no store, or consumer replacement.

A lot depends on how long the batteries last with normal usage. A lot of people have unintentionally drained their batteries, not realizing that WiFi and a lot of open apps = issues.

lysdexia
Jul 15, 2007, 11:57 PM
ok my first question is=do you work for apple?
if you don't i dunno know it seems like u think apple can do no wrong.
you have come back at every comment i have made like you designed the iphone yourself, and you're just P.O.'D that i don't think that sending off your phone to get the battery replaced is a great idea.



[B]APPLE COULD HAVE MADE IT EASIER TO REPLACE THE BATTERY SO YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO SEND IT OFF AND GO THRU THE EXTRA BS, WITHOUT ADDING SIZE OR WEIGHT OR CHANGING ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT ABOUT THE PRODUCT-A TINY PLUG INSTEAD OF SOLDER IS ALL IT WOULD HAVE TOOK. THAT WAS MY ONLY POINT BUT YOU CANNOT ACCEPT THIS IDEA APPARENTLY.

Shitwit, you can replace batteries for the iPhone, but externally. And you wouldn't need to swap batteries unless yours were broken; otherwise you could tell when its life were under 40% or 30% and make time for the swapout.

poe diddley
Jul 17, 2007, 08:49 PM
and here it is..
exactly what i was talking about. apparently the battery in the ipod is not soldered in, as it is in the iphone (i someone will flame me for not knowing this, but whatever).
so, my point is still the same.
they should make the battery connection a clip instead of solder points in order to make the repair simpler, therefore quick enough to be performed in-store by an apple tech so no one has to send off their phone for any amount of time, and not having to pay for a rental.
http://eshop.macsales.com/images/Items/nwtbipod1350mph.jpg
and here's the product link
http://eshop.macsales.com/images/Items/nwtbipod1350mph.jpg
apparently it comes complete with tools so you can change it yourself.
so why not do the same for the iphone? doesn't look like rocket engineering to me. clip instead of solder. you can't tell me that it would cause lower battery life blah blah blah.
they could have made it like this but chose not to. i'm not saying they did it to make a quick buck on the battery changing, but that possibility exists. my point was that it could be designed so no one has to send off their phone for a battery swap.

AbsenceOfTruth
Jul 18, 2007, 07:17 PM
How long would it take to get a battery replaced and do they simply replace the battery themselves or do they send you a completely new iPhone?

pr5owner
Jul 19, 2007, 03:50 PM
The whole battery thing is kind of touchy, since it's a 'consumable'. A battery's performance and longevity depends on how it's used.

I'm sure Apple has some guidelines on what constitutes a well- and poor-performing battery, based on the number of charge cycles and overall battery capacity.

correct, www.batteryuniversity.com states that if the general temperature of the battery is anything above 60C you will only like have 40% battery life at the end of the year. (inside your phone beside the CPU is going to be way hotter than whatever the outside temp is)

also letting your li-poly or li-ion batt die will cause alot of strain on the battery further reducing the life.

you think the standard apple Customer is going to know this? most people still thing you have to drain the battery dead before charging it.

hell 1/5 americans still think the sun revolves around the earth LOL

piblondin
Oct 6, 2009, 09:24 PM
Has anyone paid the $85 for Apple to replace their iPhone battery? Did they replace it? Or did they just give you a new phone? How long did it take? Thanks!

ericthered
Oct 6, 2009, 10:25 PM
battery here:
http://s1.guide-images.ifixit.com/igi/sRE6GIaYuMouSGsY.large

teardown here: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone-3GS/817/1

doesn't look that tough

SkippyThorson
Oct 9, 2009, 09:45 AM
My razr has a replaceable battery, but I'll tell you what, whenever I open up the battery cover to get the memory card out, the whole compartment is full of dust and dirt. I would honestly have a sealed battery that requires some disassembly or service to repair than have to worry about all this crap getting into my phone and ruining it...

So I'm willing to venture you haven't heard about the unresponsive Home Button issue? It could have been prevented by a simple round rubber gasket similar to the one between the chrome bezel and glass... Apple chose not to do this, and it resulted in a pile of dust collecting around the home button, causing the "single-button-device" to become touchscreen-only. Handy!

I would honestly rather cover mine in a full body film and slide it in a leather sleeve than ever carry it naked. The plastic cases I've had have all scratched the aluminum body, and without any case, I have a scratch on my screen. I took that exact route, and my 1st gen iPhone is without fault.

It is HIGHLY prone to dust collecting in the 30pin connector and headphone jack, even more so in the speaker and mic holes, and less so in the earpiece on the top of the front. It's inevitable, and all could have been better prevented, but GOT FORBID WE RISK ASTHETICS!!! :eek:

This battery issue is the LEAST of my worries. I'll pay the $80 to let Apple do it. Maybe they'll pity me and give the phone a good cleaning before it's returned - sort of like a dealer doing work on your car and detailing it for you. What are the odds?