State of the Union... or, declining nationalism in America.

[Kingsly]

My house is the only one in the entire neighborhood that has an American flag up.

1. Out of over 500.

This sickens me.

Discuss.

[geese]

Why does this sicken you? Do you really need to show pride in your country so blatantly?

[skunk]

My house is the only one in the entire neighborhood that has an American flag up.

1. Out of over 500.

This sickens me.

Discuss.Happy Independence Day. Enjoy! No, really.

[killr_b]

My house is the only one in the entire neighborhood that has an American flag up.

1. Out of over 500.

This sickens me.

Discuss.

I understand. About 1/4 of the houses here have flags up.

People just forgot temporarily that the United States is us, the people. And if we don't like our government servants we can fire them all.
The media has been attacking our principles for a while now, and it's destroying national pride and our faith.

If everyone would snap out of the media induced hypnotized state their brains are in they would realize that we aren't bound to these new ideas of income tax and national debt, and that all these problems and more can be solved once you cut away the fat of all these bankers and lobbyists in Washington.

[Ugg]

My house is the only one in the entire neighborhood that has an American flag up.

1. Out of over 500.

This sickens me.

Discuss.

My, aren't we testy!

I didn't realize that flying the flag was a requirement for home ownership in America.

Perhaps the declining pride in what the USA stands for is the reason. What is there to celebrate today? The fact that in the last 6.5 years we've become a new-fascist state?

[solvs]

I still love my country. I hate it's leadership, and am extremely disappointed at the opposition (if you can even call it that), but they are not the country. They aren't the ideals that we're supposed to stand for. And based on the low approval ratings, a majority of us feel that way, and who can blame them. So yes, it is sad that we can't be proud of our country while being ashamed of our gov, but maybe you should be madder at those who made is so we're so ashamed.

I was going to put my flag up, but after the Libby thing, I really don't want to. Not even sure I want to go to the fireworks show. I still love my country, but honestly, I'm not wanting to show it right now.

[zimv20]

I still love my country, but honestly, I'm not wanting to show it right now.
fly it upside down, then, to represent the danger our country is in this 4th of july.

[zimv20]

This sickens me.

anything going on in politics that also sickens you? or does the symbol trump the thing it symbolizes?

[aquajet]

The only way I considered flying the flag today is upside down. I seriously considered it until I remembered I live in Texas. I'm afraid of the potential backlash from some the jingoists and fascists in town who made their presence known during the 2004 and 2006 elections. They were all too happy to deny my right to express my support for non-Republican candidates.

[FFTT]

Maybe our flag should be flown at 26% mast.

[Kingsly]

I obviously chose the wrong vocabulary word.

I am not referring to the state of affairs on DC. That is sickening. I was referring to what appears to be declining nationalism in the US.

Americans, on average, do not take part in the political process. They don't vote, don't follow the going's on in Congress, don't fire the guys they don't like (ya'll can agree there, right?) and don't appear to have a long enough attention span that, even if they did decide to try and change the system, would get bored and move on to something else before the task was done.

I've travelled a lot, on nearly every continent. Americans are by far the lease politically minded bunch.

Flags are not exactly what Im mad about. It's that Americans don't appreciate the amazing freedoms and ability they posses as units in the world's most powerful democracy.

killr_b put it best. I also like what Solvs said. Hate the leadership all you want. I don't care. But DC is not America. Apparently people don't get that. :(

[atszyman]

My house is the only one in the entire neighborhood that has an American flag up.

1. Out of over 500.

This sickens me.

Discuss.

Bear in mind, that many people are traveling over the holiday and won't be home to put their flags outside. Rather than fly it for days with no supervision, in the dark and possible inclement weather, many may have opted to just not put it out.

The only way I considered flying the flag today is upside down. I seriously considered it until I remembered I live in Texas. I'm afraid of the potential backlash from some the jingoists and fascists in town who made their presence known during the 2004 and 2006 elections. They were all too happy to deny my right to express my support for non-Republican candidates.

I had a house near our neighborhood that did that for quite some time. Never did figure out if they were doing it to make a point or if they were just idiots who thought it was right side up since it was not a straight flagpole, rather one of the angled bracket from their house.

This was in TX so they were either informed of their error, or lynched, since I haven't seen the flag in awhile.

[zimv20]

Flags are not exactly what Im mad about.
cool. i don't think that was clear in your first post.

while i agree with you on the broken-ness of the process and the general apathy of the voting public, i'm not so convinced that flag-counting is the best way to gauge process participation or love of country.

[pseudobrit]

Nationalism is poison.

[jng]

Nationalism is poison.

No, it's not. Nationalism is healthy. When it escalates beyond Patriotism, then yes, maybe dangerous.


Americans, on average, do not take part in the political process. They don't vote, don't follow the going's on in Congress, don't fire the guys they don't like (ya'll can agree there, right?) and don't appear to have a long enough attention span that, even if they did decide to try and change the system, would get bored and move on to something else before the task was done.

I've travelled a lot, on nearly every continent. Americans are by far the lease politically minded bunch.

Flags are not exactly what Im mad about. It's that Americans don't appreciate the amazing freedoms and ability they posses as units in the world's most powerful democracy.

killr_b put it best. I also like what Solvs said. Hate the leadership all you want. I don't care. But DC is not America. Apparently people don't get that. :(

I used to be young and idealistic and politcally very active on a local level, voted in primaries too and local elections. Then I went to college and left the country and stopped. I realized: I don't like America.

Agreed DC is not America. But it's not Bush. I just don't like this country and its people. This country is the land of opportunity, why my parents chose to come and why I am thankful. But honestly, I'd love to live in another country, preferably in Europe.

There people take real lunch breaks and eat more than your microwaved or leftoverwhatever. People on the street are real friendly and help a lost traveler - lending me their cell phone even. In Germany where I lived the parks and streets were filled with families. The streets are clean.

I'm not proud of the representatives of our country. But I'm not proud of Americans either.

Re the flag, I don't own one and don't care to much.

[pseudobrit]

No, it's not. Nationalism is healthy. When it escalates beyond Patriotism, then yes, maybe dangerous.

Come all ye young rebels, and list while I sing,
For the love of one's country is a terrible thing.
It banishes fear with the speed of a flame,
And it makes us all part of the patriot game.

My name is O'Hanlon, and I've just turned sixteen.
My home is in Monaghan, and where I was weaned
I learned all my life cruel England's to blame,
So now I am part of the patriot game.

This Ireland of ours has too long been half free.
Six counties lie under John Bull's tyranny.
But still De Valera is greatly to blame
For shirking his part in the Patriot game.

They told me how Connolly was shot in his chair,
His wounds from the fighting all bloody and bare.
His fine body twisted, all battered and lame
They soon made me part of the patriot game.

It's nearly two years since I wandered away
With the local battalion of the bold IRA,
For I read of our heroes, and wanted the same
To play out my part in the patriot game.

And now as I lie here, my body all holes
I think of those traitors who bargained in souls
And I wish that my rifle had given the same
To those Quislings who sold out the patriot game.

[Edandlindz28]

My, aren't we testy!

What is there to celebrate today?


You are free?

[MACDRIVE]

I took a little trip down the freeway today in my American made automobile just for fun and to relax. I didn't have to cross through any militant checkpoints nor worry about any roadside bombs. I enjoyed my brief excursion of freedom. :)

[Ugg]

You are free?

From what?

[Ugg]

I took a little trip down the freeway today in my American made automobile just for fun and to relax. I didn't have to cross through any militant checkpoints nor worry about any roadside bombs. I enjoyed my brief excursion of freedom. :)

You obviously haven't spent much time near the Mexican border. Militant checkpoints are pretty common.

Roadside bombs in the US are also more prevalent in the US than in any other developed country. How anyone can drive such broken down, unsafe vehicles is beyond me.:D

[SMM]

America is unlike any other country. It is the purest form of class-free, unchecked capitalism. It is also the home of a of an incredible hoax. America has lived a lie about itself. It is not the great benevolent spreader of world democracy.

America began as a colony for England, France, Holland and Spain. The inhabitants broke those associations, but did not break from colonialism. We imported slaves and colonized the lands owned by the indigenous peoples. By the time we had reached the Pacific, we began colonizing abroad. We had learned nothing about being good people. We did become very good bad people.

Since the turn of the 20th century, we have practiced a neo-colonialism. Put a strong ruler in place, or support on who is already there, make a show of humanitarianism, force unfavorable business concessions, and hope the putz can remain in power. Many of our 'foreign allies' are among the worst despots in history, far worse than SH.

We have well over 1,000,000 people in prison. We have many times that living on our streets. Our national debt is so high, soon we will not be able to make the interest payment. While most of the world wants to address environmental catastrophes, we cover our eyes, ears and mouth.

The solutions; more jails, more police, fewer social programs, more deficit spending and more denial. Yes, we have so much to be proud of.

[solvs]

You are free?

Though better than in some countries, not as much as you'd think, especially lately.

[Peterkro]

@ psuedobrit

Your man James Connolly knew a thing or two about nationalism:

Not a Republic as in the United States, where the power of the purse
has established a new tyranny under the forms of freedom.
James Connolly

“If you remove the English Army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle., unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts will be in vain. England will still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs”. - James Connolly, from Socialism and Nationalism in Shan Van Vocht, January 1897

[paddy]

pseudobrit I can assure you without Irish nationalism we (the Irish) would still be under what was an undeniably cruel and tyrannical regime.

[Edandlindz28]

Well you are free enough to post whatever you want in this forum.

[Queso]

pseudobrit I can assure you without Irish nationalism we (the Irish) would still be under what was an undeniably cruel and tyrannical regime.
I know Gordon Brown isn't perfect, but I think that's just a little harsh ;)

[miloblithe]

Our national debt is so high, soon we will not be able to make the interest payment.

Nonsense.

Otherwise, reasonable points.

[paddy]

I know Gordon Brown isn't perfect, but I think that's just a little harsh ;)

Lol. It's just that that example was over simplified which annoyed me because it assumed the only reason the IRA came into being was because of idealism and not because of oppression of the people.

[Swarmlord]

I understand. About 1/4 of the houses here have flags up.

People just forgot temporarily that the United States is us, the people. And if we don't like our government servants we can fire them all.
The media has been attacking our principles for a while now, and it's destroying national pride and our faith.

If everyone would snap out of the media induced hypnotized state their brains are in they would realize that we aren't bound to these new ideas of income tax and national debt, and that all these problems and more can be solved once you cut away the fat of all these bankers and lobbyists in Washington.
About half the houses in my neighborhood (a section actually) had their flags out yesterday. During non-holidays I would say that about 15% have their flags out every day except during inclement weather.

[shecky]

Well you are free enough to post whatever you want in this forum.

you most certainly are not.

[takao]

nationalism a good thing ? well perhaps in the mirror universe where spock wears a beard

that said i don't get the obsession with flags (which the british are also guilty off .. at least when they are on holidays).. at least with austria it would be much more entertaining in the "what it stands for" point ...

[Queso]

(which the british are also guilty off .. at least when they are on holidays).
:confused: Maybe in Magaluf....where have you been holidaying? :confused:

[leekohler]

My house is the only one in the entire neighborhood that has an American flag up.

1. Out of over 500.

This sickens me.

Discuss.

Should give you some insight into the general mood of the country. Get mad at Bush, not your neighbors.

[Don't panic]

i concur with the school of thought that see any decrease in nationalism as a Good Thing™.
flag-waving is best limited to the Olympics and other sporting events.

[princealfie]

Nationalism is bad very bad.
It's the biggest trait of the Third Reich. :mad:

[SMM]

Nonsense.

Otherwise, reasonable points.

Forget who made the comment and no time to look it up. It was from academia, not politics. But, based on the current economic trajectory, in 2025 (give of take), we would need to use debt to pay debt.

[solvs]

Well you are free enough to post whatever you want in this forum.

Actually, it being a private forum with it's own rules, no we aren't. But it is international, so what would that have to do with us even if it was (and I'm glad it isn't, I've seen unmoderated forums, they're a mess)? It is US based, but it could be just as easily be UK based. And though not as bad as China, or others that are far worse, the gov under Bush can have access to our correspondence without any oversight or warrants.

[pseudobrit]

pseudobrit I can assure you without Irish nationalism we (the Irish) would still be under what was an undeniably cruel and tyrannical regime.

Nationalism in the sense I'm using it never did anything but make fanatics out of honest, good people.

Now if you're using in the sense of a people wanting independence, as most of the Irish people had for most of the past millenium, it's a different tune of nationalism and I agree with you completely.

[paddy]

Nationalism in the sense I'm using it never did anything but make fanatics out of honest, good people.

Now if you're using in the sense of a people wanting independence, as most of the Irish people had for most of the past millenium, it's a different tune of nationalism and I agree with you completely.

Good, we agree completely then. :)

[Swarmlord]

Nationalism is bad very bad.
It's the biggest trait of the Third Reich. :mad:

Don't confuse pride in one's country with fanaticism.

They liked Mercedes cars too. Driving one doesn't make you a Nazis sympathizer though.

[yojitani]

I'm with pseudobrit and takao on this one. Patriotism/nationalism are the same, IMO, the distinction is disingenuous and random in much the same way that national borders are. That said, the role nationalism has played in anti-colonial movements has been immense, so it shouldn't be discounted out of hand. Still, I fail to see the what fatal consequences await communities in which national sentiment disappears.

Also, while we're on the topic, some of you might have heard that Gordon Brown (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6276280.stm) (the PM of GB!) is promoting flag waving. I find this development very disturbing, it seems that Brown, not content with Labour appealing to the right-wing enough, feels he needs to swing voters from the BNP - at least, that's my reading. In Japan, there is a similar trend in 'promoting patriotism in schools.' In both cases, the cited reason is the moral decay of the country - moral decay isn't the problem, it's the vacancy that is the State; the appeal to nationalism is the attempt to fill that void with some magical, but imaginary, entity.

[dswoodley]

The meaning of nationalism has been debated for centuries and likely we will not come to an agreement on this forum. I will say it is necessary for patriotism, but one does not necessarily have to be a patriot to be a nationalist.

1 in 500? On the 4th?. Wow. That is one barometer of national mood, but as another poster suggested maybe not the best barometer. In my neighborhood, very heavy with military families, I'd put it at 1 in 2. The vast majority of them don't wave the flag because they've been brainwashed by the DOD, but because they honestly believe America is a wonderful country and the best place in the world to live. I agree with them.

[Queso]

Also, while we're on the topic, some of you might have heard that Gordon Brown (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6276280.stm) (the PM of GB!) is promoting flag waving. I find this development very disturbing, it seems that Brown, not content with Labour appealing to the right-wing enough, feels he needs to swing voters from the BNP - at least, that's my reading.
That's not it at all. Brown is promoting "Britishness" to try and hold the current tide of Scottish and Welsh Nationalism. If Scotland breaks away in the proposed referendum in 2010, Gordon Brown's Scottish seat in the Westminster Parliament will no longer be valid, meaning he can no longer be Prime Minister of the UK. Since the Scottish Nationalists run the Parliament in Edinburgh, even if he could get himself elected to a seat there he would still be completely out of power.

Which after 10 years of waiting in Blair's shadow for his turn would suck just a little.

[IJ Reilly]

The meaning of nationalism has been debated for centuries and likely we will not come to an agreement on this forum. I will say it is necessary for patriotism, but one does not necessarily have to be a patriot to be a nationalist.

Now there's a good point. The term nationalism, as it's usually used, is the extreme form of patriotism, i.e., an expression of national superiority. Flying a flag outside your home on a national holiday (especially the most important national holiday on the calendar) is a recognition of the significance of the day, and is by no means necessarily an expression of nationalism. I like to see a street full of flags on the 4th of July. I always put mine out on the porch for the major national holidays. Unfortunately, few of my (conservative Republican) neighbors contribute to the festive atmosphere.

[xsedrinam]

Don't confuse pride in one's country with fanaticism.

They liked Mercedes cars too. Driving one doesn't make you a Nazis sympathizer though.
True. Singing "This Is My Country" isn't so bad a thing on Independence Day. Saying "We won WWII because our German scientists were better than their German scientists" is another thing.

[yojitani]

That's not it at all. Brown is promoting "Britishness" to try and hold the current tide of Scottish and Welsh Nationalism. If Scotland breaks away in the proposed referendum in 2010, Gordon Brown's Scottish seat in the Westminster Parliament will no longer be valid, meaning he can no longer be Prime Minister of the UK. Since the Scottish Nationalists run the Parliament in Edinburgh, even if he could get himself elected to a seat there he would still be completely out of power.

Which after 10 years of waiting in Blair's shadow for his turn would suck just a little.

I had considered this, but at the same time you can see how such a move would get some sympathy from tory and further right voters too. I think you're right, there's the whole devolution issue too. AND the fact that there has been a bit of noise in the south about having a Scottish PM.

The meaning of nationalism has been debated for centuries and likely we will not come to an agreement on this forum. I will say it is necessary for patriotism, but one does not necessarily have to be a patriot to be a nationalist.

I would assert that this is false. Patriotism is of the same mold and indistinguishable from nationalism. The distinction is made between the two in order to delimit 'good' from 'bad' nationalism. Perhaps to the generation that 'you are with us or with the terrorists' makes sense, good from bad is easy enough to isolate. Otherwise, the creation of the boundaries between these nationalism is purely arbitrary.

Also, you're stretching it saying that nationalism has been debated for centuries - two centuries, that's all. It's not like nationalism is an age old problem...

[IJ Reilly]

I would assert that this is false. Patriotism is of the same mold and indistinguishable from nationalism. The distinction is made between the two in order to delimit 'good' from 'bad' nationalism. Perhaps to the generation that 'you are with us or with the terrorists' makes sense, good from bad is easy enough to isolate. Otherwise, the creation of the boundaries between these nationalism is purely arbitrary.

I thought I'd addressed this point already. Posting can be like talking to yourself sometimes...

[dswoodley]

I would assert that this is false. Patriotism is of the same mold and indistinguishable from nationalism. The distinction is made between the two in order to delimit 'good' from 'bad' nationalism. Perhaps to the generation that 'you are with us or with the terrorists' makes sense, good from bad is easy enough to isolate. Otherwise, the creation of the boundaries between these nationalism is purely arbitrary.

Also, you're stretching it saying that nationalism has been debated for centuries - two centuries, that's all. It's not like nationalism is an age old problem...

Simply wrong. Nationalism (in the modern sense) has clearly evident roots going back to the English Glorious Revolution. Earlier motifs can be seen in 15th and 16th century Florence - Bruno Latini and Machiavelli come to mind. Their ideas on nationalism as a cultural force in turn drew heavily on Greco-Roman models. Also important to the evolution of "western" nationalism is the impact of ancient Israel and Old Testament interpretions. You might want to consider investigating the works of Ernest Renan, Max Weber, Walker Connor, Elie Kedourie, Ernest Gellner, Eric Hobsbawm and John Breuilly instead of quick check to wikipedia or wherever you got the idea to dismiss nationalism as a "recent" problem.

[FFTT]

I love this country.but I simply will not quietly stand by when I see corruption
destroying everything good that we have stood for.

Every person still supporting this administration's profiteering, should spend a few days visiting Walter Reed or their nearest VA Hospital.

[Edandlindz28]

I love this country.but I simply will not quietly stand by when I see corruption
destroying everything good that we have stood for.

Every person still supporting this administration's profiteering, should spend a few days visiting Walter Reed or their nearest VA Hospital.

I love my country too. And I too stand up for what I think is right.
The decline of VA Hospitals didn't start with this administration. It has been under-funded for a very long time.

[Edandlindz28]

you most certainly are not.

I guess I should have said, you are free enough to post whatever you want within the forum rules/regulations.