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Freg3000
Jul 18, 2003, 04:52 PM
I got that interesting e-mail from Apple two days ago. It's not that I wasn't expecting it, it's just that I am wondering how they can do it . . .

I captured the G5 ad prior to Apple posting it on their site, and uploaded it to my iDisk. At the time it was the only video of the ad, so it jumped around the net pretty quickly. I soon realized it had been deleted from my iDisk when I got a broken link message when trying to download it. And now I have this letter.

It's not that I am angry or anything-it's not like it was personal data or something. But I am just wondering, how can Apple do this? Is a public commercial copywrited (or how I like to say, copywritten)? Even if it is, shouldn't Apple notify me prior to deleting the files in question, in case it was important data, instead of getting rid of it immediately? Finally, isn't my iDisk like the hard drive in my computer, just on an xServe? I mean, Apple can't come into my house and delete the file on my home computer, why are they allowed to do it on the iDisk? Is there a legal difference between the two?

Sorry for all the questions. I was just curious.

P.S. Has this ever happened to anyone else?

tazo
Jul 18, 2003, 04:57 PM
i would contact an attorney. that to me sounds like a total invasion of privacy. you paid for the service, it is supposed to be your private online hard drive :(

jettaboi
Jul 18, 2003, 05:09 PM
I would venture a guess that if you read the terms of agreement associated with .mac that you would find something in there that allows them to do that. Not sure, just a guess.

janey
Jul 18, 2003, 09:17 PM
well unfortunately it says in the .Mac Membership Terms (http://www.mac.com/1/membership_terms.html) that:
Apple reserves the right to delete, move or edit any item (email or other Content) that Apple, in its sole discretion, deems abusive, defamatory, obscene, in violation of copyright or trademark laws, or otherwise illegal, inappropriate or unacceptable, including any material Apple believes may subject Apple to any liability or which may cause Apple to lose the services of any supplier, including but not limited to any Internet Service Providers (ISPs) which may provide services to .Mac users.
it probably falls under the inappropriate or unacceptable category, maybe the copyright/trademark laws. it's Apple's ad you uploaded to your iDisk...

Daveman Deluxe
Jul 18, 2003, 09:33 PM
The fact is that commercials like that ARE copyrighted, and your reproduction of that copyrighted material on your .Mac account is illegal.

Under ordinary circumstances, yes, the deletion of your data would be illegal. In fact, if you were using a different .Mac-like service, it would also be illegal for Apple to delete those files (Apple could ask you to remove the files yourself, sue you, or ask the company running the service to remove the files).

However, you are using .Mac, which is run by Apple and in the terms of service (as pointed out by übergeek), Apple reserves the right to delete such content.

Freg3000
Jul 18, 2003, 10:16 PM
Ok, I tend to agree with all the above statements. In the IRC channel it was said that it was ironic that I was using the Apple iDisk to host an Apple ad. But according to the guidelines übergeek pointed out, Apple can basically trash anything they want. After all, it is left up to their "sole discretion" to deem what is "unacceptable." Is porn unacceptable? Where is the line drawn?

Additionally this makes me wonder....Does Apple routinely go through .Mac members' iDisks to check for "unacceptable" files or did they just see my bandwidth explode?

Thanks for the info everyone.

Kwyjibo
Jul 18, 2003, 10:42 PM
they probably saw the banwith explode and perhaps someone reported the link to apple legal and they said wait a minute for once we don't have to ask or make stern phone calls !

MacAztec
Jul 18, 2003, 11:16 PM
Do this: If you want to host files on your iDisk...even whole Music CDs, just...

Encrypt it with stuffit and give it a password. Then, you can leave it on your iDisk, Apple cannot see the file, and only people that you want to have it can get it. Nobody will know. Even if you have 200 people downloading whatever it is at once, apple will never find out unless someone gives them the password.

iJon
Jul 18, 2003, 11:45 PM
yeah this has happened to me as well. i hosted an unreleased version of safari on my idisk. they deleted it and sent me an email saying if it happened again they would cancel my account. didnt really care thoug since i get .mac for free.

iJon

janey
Jul 19, 2003, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by MacAztec
Encrypt it with stuffit and give it a password. Then, you can leave it on your iDisk, Apple cannot see the file, and only people that you want to have it can get it. Nobody will know. Even if you have 200 people downloading whatever it is at once, apple will never find out unless someone gives them the password.
Er...Apple's not stupid. You need something like PGP to get past Apple like that, they can just break weak encryption if they really want to.
EDIT: After reading that again what you said doesn't quite make sense. However, no matter what password you put on anything, Apple will probably find some way to get past it. A password on your iDisk is pointless (after all apple has the password).

I don't believe Apple really does go through the iDisks, I think they just saw your bandwidth use skyrocket and thought something was wrong...
Freg3000: they're probably reasonable. possession of pornography is not illegal unless you're a minor (or unless it's child pornography) so i guess Apple can decide that based on age and stuff...but really they only delete things that are illegal, not something they dislike...they have to have a good reason.

Kwyjibo
Jul 19, 2003, 12:58 AM
If he were to put a stuffit password on the file and only give the password on another site you can probably get away with it. I've seen people host many things that shouldn't be on an iDisk and get away with it....freg's link was all over the place, i'm really not surprised at apples move...I'm not saying apple can't crack the encryption. But if I hae a file call vactionphotos.sit with a password youll probably get away with it

MrMacMan
Jul 19, 2003, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by übergeek
Er...Apple's not stupid. You need something like PGP to get past Apple like that, they can just break weak encryption if they really want to.
I think that hits a legal thread, where they have to use encryption breaking software to get to the file, many cases breaking certain types of encyption (depending on methong) could be illegal.

EDIT: After reading that again what you said doesn't quite make sense. However, no matter what password you put on anything, Apple will probably find some way to get past it. A password on your iDisk is pointless (after all apple has the password).

I think he was refering to a password to open the file not from iDisk because obviously they would have that already.

I don't believe Apple really does go through the iDisks, I think they just saw your bandwidth use skyrocket and thought something was wrong...

Yeah, they totally red-flagged you.

Freg3000: they're probably reasonable. possession of pornography is not illegal unless you're a minor (or unless it's child pornography) ...
I mean if you own the .Mac wouldn't you have to be some certain age anyway? (sorry, clueless about this) And for your info, some really sick people linked me to a site with like a billion pop ups, there are other illegal pr0n out there... they are just too horrible to mention.

...so i guess Apple can decide that based on age and stuff...but really they only delete things that are illegal, not something they dislike...they have to have a good reason.
Like chewing bandwitch like crazy therefore -- delete.

I would contact them anyway, they should have said 'take it down' in an e-mail before deleteing it.

edit:
Originally posted by Kwyjibo
If he were to put a stuffit password on the file and only give the password on another site you can probably get away with it. I've seen people host many things that shouldn't be on an iDisk and get away with it....freg's link was all over the place, i'm really not surprised at apples move...I'm not saying apple can't crack the encryption. But if I hae a file call vactionphotos.sit with a password youll probably get away with it
Yup, i doubt apple would go after it unless it was TOTALLY hogging bandwitchm which I doubt any file could on apple's site... :rolleyes:

You would probably need a slashdot like downloading of that file to get apple to crack the encrytion.

Doctor Q
Jul 19, 2003, 01:09 AM
übergeek is probably right that they didn't monitor your files before your traffic shot up. But that doesn't mean they aren't monitoring your files regularly now, Freg3000.

janey
Jul 19, 2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by MrMacman
I think that hits a legal thread, where they have to use encryption breaking software to get to the file, many cases breaking certain types of encyption (depending on methong) could be illegal.
well true...but if apple has a legit reason...
I think he was refering to a password to open the file not from iDisk because obviously they would have that already.
yah that's what i thought too
I mean if you own the .Mac wouldn't you have to be some certain age anyway?
you have to be at least 13...
Like chewing bandwitch like crazy therefore -- delete.
actually apple doesn't care. a lot of people exceed their available bandwidth...apple just displays a message saying so.
I would contact them anyway, they should have said 'take it down' in an e-mail before deleteing it.
that is true, but since it technically is apple's decision i don't think there's anything you can really do about it. as long as you have stuff that doesn't break any of their rules/regulation they won't care.

Kwyjibo: In the event that Apple needed to, they would break it. They probably won't even make the effort to, though.

Freg3000
Jul 19, 2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Doctor Q
übergeek is probably right that they didn't monitor your files before your traffic shot up. But that doesn't mean they aren't monitoring your files regularly now, Freg3000.

Well, its not like anything super personal is in there that I wouldn't want Apple to see. You know, the only things in there are like photos from vacations, home made movies, Apple's own commercials....:) Though it is a little weird that I'll probably have Apple looking over my shoulder for the foreseeable future.

I do understand why they took it down, and what they did is acceptable. I just feel weird, you know? All I was trying to do was show everyone the commercial that Apple was already showing on TV. Not trying to spread a pirated copy of FCP 4.

I think Apple realizes the difference though. As iJon got a letter "threatening" that they might cancel the account for the beta copy of Safari, mine was just a notification. So they're not that mad.

I guess I'll just chalk this one up as a learning experience. :)

chazmox
Jul 20, 2003, 04:48 PM
I was reading the comments and was surprised that everyone missed this point....

Why would Apple want the ad deleted?

I mean isn't the purpose of a commercial to get as many people to view it as possible? I can understand major league football not wanting you to charge admission for watching a pre-taped game ( why anyone would do this is beyond me - but I'd love to place bets on the game if there were takers! ), and I can even see where Apple could care if you charged others to see it, but they should be happy with people wanting to see and promote their commercials....

If you taped it on your VCR and invited all your friends over to watch it... would Apple send a lawyer over with a cease and desist? Again, shouldn't they WANT alot of people seeing their commercial???

janey
Jul 20, 2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by chazmox
I was reading the comments and was surprised that everyone missed this point...Why would Apple want the ad deleted?...If you taped it on your VCR and invited all your friends over to watch it... would Apple send a lawyer over with a cease and desist? Again, shouldn't they WANT alot of people seeing their commercial???
because its their property and it might break some copyright laws and stuff...
the thing is if you taped it they don't know..but this was an ad anyone could have gotten from his iDisk. makes all the difference.

bennetsaysargh
Jul 20, 2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Kwyjibo
they probably saw the banwith explode and perhaps someone reported the link to apple legal and they said wait a minute for once we don't have to ask or make stern phone calls !

i guess this means that they do visit macrumors and macbytes!. that's where i got the link from.

medea
Jul 20, 2003, 06:03 PM
I would never put anything illegal or questionable on my .mac account so I'm not really worried about myself, if you want to host something like that you probably shouldn't host it on a corporate site especially apples.

Ryan1524
Jul 20, 2003, 06:08 PM
that's too bad thou...wouldn't he be helping the ad spread by distributing it to more people?? ;)

chazmox
Jul 20, 2003, 07:58 PM
because its their property and it might break some copyright laws and stuff...
the thing is if you taped it they don't know..but this was an ad anyone could have gotten from his iDisk. makes all the difference.

I am not arguing that it isn't their property or that they do not have the right ( their disclaimer is clear about this ) to control or erase their own ad.

The point was that why would they want to? The point of an advertisement is to get it in front of as many eyeballs as possible. The bandwidth charges ( and mind you that these are partially funded by the owner of the account ) are miniscule compared to the cost of a 15 sec spot on CNBC.

Regarding the copyright laws - Apple owns the property ( said copyright of the commercial ) so if they choose to allow it on the .mac account they are perfectly in their rights to do so and need permission from no other entity.

Kwyjibo
Jul 20, 2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
i guess this means that they do visit macrumors and macbytes!. that's where i got the link from.

with all the notices ....thats not impossible... i saw it alot of places tho

rainman::|:|
Jul 20, 2003, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by chazmox
I am not arguing that it isn't their property or that they do not have the right ( their disclaimer is clear about this ) to control or erase their own ad.

The point was that why would they want to? The point of an advertisement is to get it in front of as many eyeballs as possible. The bandwidth charges ( and mind you that these are partially funded by the owner of the account ) are miniscule compared to the cost of a 15 sec spot on CNBC.

Regarding the copyright laws - Apple owns the property ( said copyright of the commercial ) so if they choose to allow it on the .mac account they are perfectly in their rights to do so and need permission from no other entity.

Common sense and copyright/trademark laws rarely intersect. Apple is protecting their intellectual property no matter what, good or bad, because they like to keep a tight ship. One could argue that the low quality capture degrades the effect of the commercial and paints Apple and their products in a bad light... Nitpicky, but then this is the corporate world.

Short answer: they did this because they can.

pnw

mac15
Jul 20, 2003, 11:10 PM
I hosted Safari on there once and apple told me to pull. since it was already on apples servers. There is a long list of stuff you can/can't do and hosting apples own ads musn't be one of them

chazmox
Jul 20, 2003, 11:11 PM
Short answer: they did this because they can.


Totally agree on that... and the low-quality issue definitely could be argued...

However, I think that as an exec I'd really have to weigh the impact of this and there may be a good argument to be made to allow the commercial to stay on the .mac account.

Option 1.) Control your image to the Nth degree but come off as a hard ass ( which becomes part of your image ).

Option 2.) Turn the other way and take a little more relaxed approach.

Doctor Q
Jul 20, 2003, 11:23 PM
They didn't consult every employee at Apple about this. The legal department probably has a standing assignment to eliminate files that violate copyrights or that contain unreleased Apple material, when such files come to Apple's attention. They probably followed a standing policy without asking an exec to think over the choices.

chazmox
Jul 20, 2003, 11:36 PM
When I said exec I didn't mean Jobs or one of his staff - but someone had to make the call and it probably was someone in legal - whose job often is to protect the client no matter how much it hurt them!!!

Doctor Q
Jul 21, 2003, 01:08 AM
I have a new theory. The legal department at Apple noticed Freg3000's file and alerted Steve Jobs, who canceled all his meetings, saying "At last, I have a chance to get my revenge on those troublesome MacRumors members!". Then he personally deleted Freg3000's file while gleefully saying to himself "This'll scare the rest of them and teach them not to discuss leaked G5 specs!" ;)

Bear
Jul 21, 2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Kwyjibo
If he were to put a stuffit password on the file and only give the password on another site you can probably get away with it. I've seen people host many things that shouldn't be on an iDisk and get away with it....freg's link was all over the place, i'm really not surprised at apples move...I'm not saying apple can't crack the encryption. But if I hae a file call vactionphotos.sit with a password youll probably get away with it
This only works if someone at Apple doesn't read the site that the link and password is posted to.

And as a matter of fact, every time someone posts illegal content on their .mac (or whatever service) account, it's another reason for the service to monitor for illegal content more closely.

LethalWolfe
Jul 22, 2003, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by chazmox
Totally agree on that... and the low-quality issue definitely could be argued...

However, I think that as an exec I'd really have to weigh the impact of this and there may be a good argument to be made to allow the commercial to stay on the .mac account.

Option 1.) Control your image to the Nth degree but come off as a hard ass ( which becomes part of your image ).

Option 2.) Turn the other way and take a little more relaxed approach.

Well here's how I see it. You interfered w/Apple's marketing plan and they deleted the video to put a stop to that interference.

Here's what I think Apple's plan was. They run the new G5 commercial enough so a lot of people see it, but they don't run it into the ground. Now, the people who didn't see the ad, or want to see it again, are going to naturally seek out Apple.com when looking for the ad. Now while they are at Apple.com Apple is hoping they'll spend some time on the site and hopefully purchase something (or at least learn about products that they might want to purchase in the future). I'm also sure Apple is keeping a close eye on site traffic to see if the G5 commerical creates more hits.

Now, when you, or anyone else, hosts that commerical that takes away from traffic at Apple's site. If I viewed the commercial from yer .Mac account I probably wouldn't make a specail trip to Apple.com. But if I have to go to Apple.com to view the commerical I'll probably poke around the site a bit and drool over the stuff I can't afford right now. :D

Also, Apple had probably planned for a rush onto Apple.com when word got around that the commerical was up, and if the video can be found else where before Apple releases it it steals Apple's thunder, if you will, and that rush to view the video probably isn't as large.

That is why I think they deleted the video from yer account.


Lethal

chazmox
Jul 22, 2003, 07:45 AM
Nicely done!