USB 2.0 in iMacs?

[MacRumors]

Previous reports of USB 2.0 chipsets (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/04/20030421003100.shtml) built into PowerMacs led to some conflicting reports regarding the activation of this hidden functionality through experimental drivers.

Recent reports suggest that the iMac may contain the same functionality and will receive an unexpected update from Apple this Wednesday to enable this functionality.

Correction : Well, looks like the reports were too cryptic. :) The update on Wednesday will be a security update. Future iMacs will get USB 2.0.

[mymemory]

ok:o

[Jerry Spoon]

Didn't Steve make a comment at a Keynote about not putting usb2 in Macs b/c fw800 was faster?:confused:

[adamfilip]

its true firewire is faster even regular 400 firewire is faster then 480mbps usb2. especially regarding external hard drrives

but usb2 expands compatibility.. i dont think firewire has anything to worry about..

[medea]

maybe it's just me but this doesn't make sense, if they had usb 2 capabilities then why hide it and then release an update to enable it later on?

[kettle]

not to undermine Firewire or the new G5?

[MrMacMan]

USB 2.0 is good, I just hope they still have USB 1.1 in there also.

[junior]

Originally posted by MrMacman
USB 2.0 is good, I just hope they still have USB 1.1 in there also.


I thought it was backward compatibe.

[noverflow]

Originally posted by MrMacman
USB 2.0 is good, I just hope they still have USB 1.1 in there also.

You know that 2.0 and 1.1 are frontwards and backwards compatible right?

[raschild]

I think it's great that Apple is putting this functionality in the iMac. It's just another reason not to buy a PC.

[TyleRomeo]

does this go just for the recent imacs or does it also include MMD powermacs?

tyler

[ZildjianKX]

Now if apple would only enable USB support in iTunes for the iPod... I know many mac users would like this...

[mactastic]

2.0 would be nice, it's a technology that's not going to go away, so apple might as well take advantage of it. Holding out on us doesn't do any good.

[Sun Baked]

There is no PCI-based USB controller in the new iMacs, which means the functions would have to be built into the Intrepid Controller chip.

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/iMac/art/kum01a.gif

If you look at the Rev. B MDD PowerMac you'll see that the USB 2.0 functionality was inside the PCI-USB Controller chip.

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/PowerMacG4/art/jos01.gif

The KeyLargo didn't have USB 2.0 capability (it was a 1999 design), the new KeyLargo2 in the G5 does.

The PCI-USB chip in the Rev. B MDD PowerMac did, or at least the 3rd party specs put out by the chips manufacturer says it's capable of it.

The Intrepid from the DDR iMac is the question mark, the docs don't say anything about it. But the capabilities of the Apple chips are not alway fully known, as Apple may choose not to use a capability (such as the Modem built into the MDDs UniNorth2 chip).

Should be interesting if Apple does make a Jaguar update available for the iMac.

But since this chip is also in the new PB12 and PB17 -- they should also be capable of USB 2.0.

[mac15]

so this would make USB2 availiable on my Rev A, FP iMac? If so , then its about flucking time. :)

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by mac15
so this would make USB2 availiable on my Rev A, FP iMac? If so , then its about flucking time. :) Probably not on any of the old SDR iMac machines since they were using older chipsets, only the new DDR machines...

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/iMac_012202/art/ts01.gif

Heck don't ask me to post any more of the iMacs befor this, there's a bunch of different chipsets in the CRT iMacs. :p

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by TyleRomeo
does this go just for the recent imacs or does it also include MMD powermacs?

tyler

I think I read somewhere that there was a way to activate USB 2 on the 2nd revision of the MDD PowerMacs, but I really didn't hear much success or failure about it. I do know that there was something different about the two machines, and the article distinctly differentiated between the 1st and 2nd revisions. But it makes me wonder if it is possible that the iMacs would have it (which began production in early 2002) but not the 1st PowerMacs (which started production in August of that same year). All in all, I don't think Apple can magically flip on the proverbial USB 2 switch with a software update.

It would be nice though.

Edit: While I still don't think it will happen, I mistakenly though they article was talking about the first batch of FP iMacs. I forgot about this spring's revision.

[ZildjianKX]

Anyone else think its pretty ****ty this wasn't enabled previously?

[MhzDoesMatter]

Originally posted by ZildjianKX
Anyone else think its pretty ****ty this wasn't enabled previously?

Not especially....

It's not like you knew you had it, and even if you did, they never advertised it as a feature, and never promised to implemented.

If Apple put a five grand inside my computer and didn't tell me, and hid it where I couldn't find it, would that be pretty ****ty? No. Just mildly curious.

I think it's possible that they always knew of the indirect capability for their USB1 ports to reach that speed. They had probably just never considered an advantage to implement it. If this rumor is true, which is a large if, then maybe they just thought it might make a bit of press or something.

Frankly, I'm not expecting to see this pop up in software update relatively soon. Now that USB2 is entering the product-lines the normal way, why would they give up the chance to leverage another incentive to upgrade to a new system?


-Hertz

[iLilana]

What about the eMacs?

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by noverflow
You know that 2.0 and 1.1 are frontwards and backwards compatible right?

Uh... I don't think you mean forward compatible. USB 1.1 (port) is not forward compatible with USB 2.0 (device). However, USB 2.0 (port) is backward compatible with USB 1.1 (device).

Originally posted by Sun Baked
But since this chip is also in the new PB12 and PB17 -- they should also be capable of USB 2.0.

Now that would be a nice surprise. My 12" PB won't be quite as obsolete quite as fast...

[nichrome]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
If you look at the Rev. B PowerMac you'll see that the USB 2.0 functionality was inside the PCI-USB Controller chip.
Originally posted by Freg3000
the 2nd revision of the MDD PowerMacs
Er, yeah, there is no MDD Rev. B or the 2nd rev of the MDD. The name of the series that supports USB 2.0 functionality is "Power Mac G4 (FireWire 800)". I'm using such a machine now.

"Power Mac G4 (Mirrored Drive Doors)" is the previous one without USB 2.0 functionality. These, by the way, are the G4 machines Apple is currently selling. No FireWire800, no USB 2.0 capability, no AirPort Extreme, no built-in Bluetooth.

Yes, the case looks the same, but Apple only calls the earlier line MDD and the newer one FW800. Look it up on KBase.

[MhzDoesMatter]

Originally posted by nichrome
Er, yeah, there is no MDD Rev. B, the series name is "Power Mac G4 (FireWire 800)". I'm using such a machine now.

Not that I don't admire your eye for detail, but for any intents and purposes does the above factoid have any effect on the point he was making? I'm afraid if you keep correcting posters' errors I'll have nothing to use against them when I post my disagreement.

-Hertz

[ZildjianKX]

Originally posted by MhzDoesMatter
Not especially....

It's not like you knew you had it, and even if you did, they never advertised it as a feature, and never promised to implemented.

If Apple put a five grand inside my computer and didn't tell me, and hid it where I couldn't find it, would that be pretty ****ty? No. Just mildly curious.

I think it's possible that they always knew of the indirect capability for their USB1 ports to reach that speed. They had probably just never considered an advantage to implement it. If this rumor is true, which is a large if, then maybe they just thought it might make a bit of press or something.

Frankly, I'm not expecting to see this pop up in software update relatively soon. Now that USB2 is entering the product-lines the normal way, why would they give up the chance to leverage another incentive to upgrade to a new system?


-Hertz

Well, I think this just goes to show that Apple has some pretty manipulating marketing people...

[gerror]

Why do you need USB 2 if you already have FireWire?

[Arcady]

Nobody has been able to show me any device that has USB 2 but is not available with FireWire. Why do we need USB 2?

Who cares?

[AngryAngel]

My Minolta dimage Scan Dual III (the best slide scanner in its price bracket) is USB2.

And USB2 devices do work on USB1 ports, so it is forwards and backwards compatible.

[h'biki]

USB2 is becoming quite ubiquitous on prosumer products which need greater speed than USB1.1 but do not need all the speed of Firewire. Most notably is digital still cameras.

[jacg]

I doubt it affects me, 'cos I have the original 800Mhz 17" iMac. I spent well over £100 pounds having a firewire 6-in-1 card reader sent from the USA to the UK (thought it might be faster than it really is). Anyway, regardless of whether that was a sensible thing to do or not, I could have bought a USB2 multi-card reader right here for £20.

I wish people would stop saying we didn't need USB2. Readily available card readers, pen drives and consumer digital cameras are USB2, NOT FIREWIRE.

[aasmund]

Originally posted by Snowy_River
[B]Uh... I don't think you mean forward compatible. USB 1.1 (port) is not forward compatible with USB 2.0 (device). However, USB 2.0 (port) is backward compatible with USB 1.1 (device).

I think it is. I have never heard of a USB 2.0 device that won't work with a 1.1 host, even though it will be much slower.

[aasmund]

Originally posted by Arcady
Nobody has been able to show me any device that has USB 2 but is not available with FireWire. Why do we need USB 2?

Who cares?

Pen drives?

I do?

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by Snowy_River
Now that would be a nice surprise. My 12" PB won't be quite as obsolete quite as fast...Just as long as you're thinking the PB12/PB17/DDR iMac share the same Intrepid controller chip (with built in USB) -- but we don't know if it's USB2.0 capable because Apple hasn't told us yet.

And the Rev B. MDD machine is the one with the chip people looked up and saw (it's not made by Apple) -- heck it's a USB 2.0 capable chip according to specs.

NOTE: Since all the Intrepid machines are FW800 capable with the addition of the FW800 PHY chip (if it's a different chip, might not be) and a FW800 port, where is the FW800 on the PB12 and DDR iMac?

Originally posted by MhzDoesMatter
Not that I don't admire your eye for detail, but for any intents and purposes does the above factoid have any effect on the point he was making? I'm afraid if you keep correcting posters' errors I'll have nothing to use against them when I post my disagreement.

-Hertz I see you're exercising your disclaimer, but at least he pointed out the missing MDD in my sentence. :eek:

But I didn't correct any of the other naming mistakes (by using the long hand names), since they obviously are not in the kBase -- but in the developers section of the site. When he points them out I'll correct them. :rolleyes:

[arn]

Correction: Well, looks like the reports were too cryptic. :) The update on Wednesday will simply be a security update -- while future iMacs will get USB 2.0.


there were two ways to take the report... I guess I took it the wrong way. oh well, win a few, lose a few. ;)

arn

[yzedf]

Originally posted by Snowy_River
Uh... I don't think you mean forward compatible. USB 1.1 (port) is not forward compatible with USB 2.0 (device). However, USB 2.0 (port) is backward compatible with USB 1.1 (device).
Wrong.

You can plug a USB 1.0/1.1 device into a USB 2.0 port and it works just fine (at USB 1.0/1.1 speed). You can also plug a USB 2.0 device into a USB 1.1 port and it works just fine (at USB 1.1 speed). This is one of the reasons why anything USB is now called USB 2.0. For those people that don't know how the compatability works, they see "USB 2.0" and think 'I have that' and use it. It is now just a matter of "full speed" or "low speed" USB 2.0 as most people will probably refer to it.

http://www.usb.org/info/usb_nomenclature

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by AngryAngel
...
And USB2 devices do work on USB1 ports, so it is forwards and backwards compatible.

Let me appologize, as I should have spoken more clearly. I would still say that this is only a backward compatible technology (although I know I'm just getting into semantics), because a USB2 device plugged into a USB1.1 port doesn't act as a USB2 device, but as a USB1.1 device, with all of the limitation there of. A USB1.1 port is not forward compatible in that it cannot act as a USB2 port. (There is some technology that has been forward compatible via a firmware upgrade, or something similar, but USB1.1 is not in this catagory.)

[bennetsaysargh]

the reason they would put USB2 in new macs would be just another selling point to switchers. almost anything that has USB2 that needs a fast connection has firewire also.

[TWinbrook46636]

Originally posted by Arcady
Nobody has been able to show me any device that has USB 2 but is not available with FireWire. Why do we need USB 2?

Who cares?

Uh, anyone thinking of buying a Digital Camera should care. They are all moving towards USB 2 now. Just wait until the fall. Take a look at Sony as an example.

[jaedreth]

The Steved One cares.

How much flack has Apple gotten for not getting on the USB 2.0 bandwagon sooner? How many PC-only devices have remained PC-only because Apple doesn't have USB 2?

Apple wants us to be able to play with all the toys the PC people can. If you don't use it, stick with your current machine. But if you are the type of person who *does* need it, it's there for you.

Technology is like Entropy.

The Third Law of Technodynamics might read something like this:

Wherever there are engineers and technicians with nothing better to do with their spare time, technology will increase.

Thus in a normal social environment, technology will continue to increase unless countered by an outside force, like Administratium. (Do a google search, a funny read.)

Jaedreth

[gopher]

Hopefully if it is a new security update Wednesday it fixes the bug on the earlier Security Update that caused the Services menu to go south on those people's machines that didn't fix their permissions prior to running the 7-14-2003 update.

[raschild]

It would be good for Apple to get USB 2.0 in all of their machines as it is an industry standard. There's no reason not to that I can see. :rolleyes:

[Arcady]

Originally posted by TWinbrook46636
Uh, anyone thinking of buying a Digital Camera should care. They are all moving towards USB 2 now. Just wait until the fall. Take a look at Sony as an example.

I guess, if you want to keep a USB cable laying around to connect the camera all the time.

I just pull the memory card out of my camera and plug it into a FireWire reader, and that works just fine for me. When I use a PowerBook, I just stick the card in a PCMCIA adapter.

How fast are memory cards are, anyway? Do they really require a 480Mbps bus?

What other devices out there are only available with USB 2 and not FireWire?

[gopher]

That's just plain silly of the industry. 480 Mbps is never achievable with USB 2. The best you can get is 150 Mbps. That's way less than Firewire but at least better than USB 1. The biggest problem is having USB 1 devices on the same bus. That ends up slowing all devices to USB 1 speeds.

[bennetsaysargh]

Originally posted by gopher
That's just plain silly of the industry. 480 Mbps is never achievable with USB 2. The best you can get is 150 Mbps. That's way less than Firewire but at least better than USB 1. The biggest problem is having USB 1 devices on the same bus. That ends up slowing all devices to USB 1 speeds.

well, i don't exactly get 400MBPS with firewire either, nor does anyone get54MBPS with AE, or 12MBPS with USB1.1.

nothing gets it's full speed.

[gopher]

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
well, i don't exactly get 400MBPS with firewire either, nor does anyone get54MBPS with AE, or 12MBPS with USB1.1.

nothing gets it's full speed.

Actually, using Retrospect Express I've had a steady 400 Mbps on many files except at the very end when it was copying the smallest files.

[bennetsaysargh]

Originally posted by gopher
Actually, using Retrospect Express I've had a steady 400 Mbps on many files except at the very end when it was copying the smallest files.

what is that?

[gopher]

Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
what is that?
Retrospect Express is a backup program that lets you make duplicate bootable copies of your Mac OS X system with two clicks and the entering of your administrative password. It is $50 at your favorite Mac mail order company and made by Dantz.

[bennetsaysargh]

Originally posted by gopher
Retrospect Express is a backup program that lets you make duplicate bootable copies of your Mac OS X system with two clicks and the entering of your administrative password. It is $50 at your favorite Mac mail order company and made by Dantz.

that's cool. maybe i could use that.

thanks.