Bush blames citizens for healthcare problems

[it5five]

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/10/bush-on-health-care-its-all-your-fault/

I can't believe this.

Actually, I can. I imagine in the next few days we will see this same absurd idea parroted in the right-wing media in this country. Meanwhile, nothing will be done to fix the problem of our healthcare system, and the insurance industries will continue to profit from death and suffering for decades.

Reminds me of that Onion article where Bush blames the failure in Iraq on the troops.

[Abstract]

I do agree with a part of what he says, though.

People really should be taking better care of themselves. If people lived a healthier lifestyle, the country would save huge amounts of money that could go towards other things like education, or better coverage for medication, particularly for senior citizens. Really, the best and most efficient healthcare system is one where the clinics and hospitals aren't overstressed with problems that are caused by people's poor lifestyle choices, not accidents or bad luck. Trying to promote living an active and healthy lifestyle is one of the best ways to improve the medical system.

[zimv20]

"people have access to healthcare in america. after all, just go to the emergency room."

what a horse's ass.

[janey]

People really should be taking better care of themselves....
Now, when you consider who exactly is part of the reason for overcrowding clinics and hospitals - it's those people working too hard to make a living to support themselves and perhaps their family who don't have the time or money to live an active and healthy lifestyle. And even if they maybe had the time to live an active and healthy lifestyle, who'd promote such a thing? Perhaps, the doctors they don't necessarily have the money to go to.

I'm not saying that that's not a good idea, it is sensible to promote such a lifestyle, but it's not feasible as is right now to solve the overcrowding issue on its own without solving some other issues first (affordable healthcare for starters), let alone the healthcare industry's corruption.

I really wish the monkey would be impeached already. So sick of his ignorance.

[it5five]

Every time I hear him talk it makes me incredibly angry. He has no clue what he is talking about. It seems like he makes this **** up as he goes along.

[zimv20]

bush is such a goddamned simpleton. his whole argument appears to be:

1. private good
2. public bad
3. don't incent people to use public

no surprise there.

and notice how he cleverly equates those who want to get on a "federalized" healthcare system with those who smoke and don't exercise. is exercising his proposed plan for the uninsured? "you don't need insurance, you exercise!"

he can't discuss anything without defining a bad guy. here, i guess it's the fat lefties and those too lazy to get private insurance. what a ****ing simpleton.

[Abstract]

Also, I also wanted to comment on comment on "transparency and pricing". Ontario (Canada) actually applied that.

Healthcare in Ontario is free. People know that. People complain about the medical system, but deep down, we do love it. I have never had to pay for anything. I simply give my doctor my Ontario Healthcare card, they swipe, and I sit down. The doctor gets his money from the government, and there's no trouble. There's no dual private-public system like they have in places like Australia, which is good.

However, people complain about lineups at GPs and hospitals, and how/where the money was being used. The government decides that while healthcare should remain free (ie: the way it is now), you should get a sheet of paper outlining exactly what the government has paid for on your behalf. I don't go to the doctor and never use the medical system, but reading the newspapers.......people were in shock. They didn't know how much it cost to go to the doctor just because their son coughed once and "may" have had a slight cold.

People abused the healthcare system here. Why? Because it was free, and so easy to use, that they went on a whim. I'm not sure if showing people the cost of healthcare helped people use more discretion before seeing the doctor, but I hope it did. People in Ontario go to the doctor for the dumbest reason. :o

Now, when you consider who exactly is part of the reason for overcrowding clinics and hospitals - it's those people working too hard to make a living to support themselves and perhaps their family who don't have the time or money to live an active and healthy lifestyle.

It can start from something as simple as eating better and healthier. People cause a lot of their own problems. I'm not saying I agree with the what he said. I don't. I think he's wrong. However, he made 1 or 2 good points (but provided no answers on how to take care of the issues he brought up during his speech :rolleyes: ).

[janey]

People in Ontario go to the doctor for the dumbest reason. :o
I don't know. Sometimes it can look like "just a cold" or something, but you never know if it might be something more serious, or the beginning of something more serious.

And certainly getting something trivial like that treated quickly is much better than that turning into something nasty (and more expensive) quite fast.

[bartelby]

People complain about the medical system, but deep down, we do love it.

It's the same in the UK.
Yes, the NHS is flawed and everything, but it's better than nothing. I personally couldn't afford private healthcare.
And living in Wales prescription medications are free!

[it5five]

bush is such a goddamned simpleton. his whole argument appears to be:

1. private good
2. public bad
3. don't incent people to use public

no surprise there.

and notice how he cleverly equates those who want to get on a "federalized" healthcare system with those who smoke and don't exercise. is exercising his proposed plan for the uninsured? "you don't need insurance, you exercise!"

he can't discuss anything without defining a bad guy. here, i guess it's the fat lefties and those too lazy to get private insurance. what a ****ing simpleton.

And what upsets me most is that people actually applaud that ****. Bush isn't the only simpleton; most of the American public is. It shouldn't have taken this long for the majority of this country to support impeachment. It's disgusting the amount of ******** the American public is willing to put up with before they get angry.

[janey]

It can start from something as simple as eating better and healthier.
Actually...even something as "simple" as eating better and healthier can be difficult.

http://foodstampchallenge.typepad.com/

For what it's worth, from personal experience it is not very easy. A year ago, my dad, who is diabetic and at that point, had been through a couple of recent eye surgeries due to severe diabetic retinopathy, was told he really needed to make some changes to his diet for his own good, and to exercise more regularly. So, white rice being one of the foods he'd consume most, we went to the market to buy whole grain replacements instead. Hell, we couldn't find them. We found brown rice at a higher cost than the white rice, but pretty much everything else was nonexistant or pathetic at the supermarkets we'd regularly go to.

So we now shop at places like Whole Foods more often (whole paycheck indeed), because even though it's pricier, at least we could find whole grain products, so I could make mac and cheese with whole grain macaroni, and whole grain linguini with salmon and fresh veggies, and wow! quinoa! can you even FIND that in most markets? We also go to the various farmers markets, because very fresh produce can be found for very cheap there, sometimes even as much as less than half of what the same thing would cost at Whole Foods or Albertsons. And we occasionally go out of our way to go to bakeries to find more than just one kind of some bread that isn't white, like at markets. The list goes on.

Then he goes to the gym almost every day, and runs a couple miles in the mornings too. And since he doesn't work, he can have the pleasure of eating 4-5 smaller meals a day with snacks inbetween, like ice cream and frozen yogurt I make at home with as little sugar or Splenda (yes, I know it might not be good, but..) as possible, because commercial ice cream with little to no sugar tastes like crap and the flavors are really boring too.

At least my family has the money and the time to do this, but just how many others are in such a position? What we're doing right now is almost impossible to pull off when you don't have $1-200 to spend on groceries alone every week for 3 people who also eat out ~10 meals a week, or the time to get up Saturday morning to go to the nearby farmers market.

[Swarmlord]

What kills me is that for all the liberal whining about the robber baron insurance companies or the healthcare establishment that three of the richest men in the world Gates, Buffet and Soros - avowed libs - haven't pooled their money to create an alternative that's the workable solution everyone dreams of. They could single handedly undercut all these expensive "private" companies and drive prices down.

[Queso]

What kills me is that for all the liberal whining about the robber baron insurance companies or the healthcare establishment that three of the richest men in the world Gates, Buffet and Soros - avowed libs - haven't pooled their money to create an alternative that's the workable solution everyone dreams of. They could single handedly undercut all these expensive "private" companies and drive prices down.
This is the same Gates, Buffett and Soros who are using their money to alleviate world poverty? Liberalism doesn't stop at national borders.

[devilot]

It can start from something as simple as eating better and healthier. Actually...even something as "simple" as eating better and healthier can be difficult.

<snip v personal examples>

At least my family has the money and the time to do this, but just how many others are in such a position? What we're doing right now is almost impossible to pull off when you don't have $1-200 to spend on groceries alone every week for 3 people who also eat out ~10 meals a week, or the time to get up Saturday morning to go to the nearby farmers market.Exactly. I remember in HS, my friend and I went to the grocery store 'cause I was craving mac 'n' cheese (the awful-for-you Kraft kind :o). I bought a 6-box package for < $3 (note the box states that one box contains, er I think two servings so I bought essentially twelve meals). My friend wanted to lose weight so she bought a single peach for $2.xx.

Hmm. One peach for nearly the same price as twelve (allbeit unhealthy) meals. Now imagine you're a family or even a single parent struggling to make ends meet and your family/kids are hungry (duh)-- which would you opt for?

Eating healthy is not cheap. Nor, as janey so aptly demonstrated, is it for those without the time and energy to keep up.

[atszyman]

Can we demand that Congress revoke funding for insurance for Executive branch employees and make them pay out of pocket for their own private insurance? Can we make them live by their own words and claim that they just need to live healthier? How many heart attacks would Cheney have to have before agreeing that the system is broken? Would Cheney even be insurable?

[nbs2]

Exactly. I remember in HS, my friend and I went to the grocery store 'cause I was craving mac 'n' cheese (the awful-for-you Kraft kind :o). I bought a 6-box package for < $3 (note the box states that one box contains, er I think two servings so I bought essentially twelve meals). My friend wanted to lose weight so she bought a single peach for $2.xx.

I'm not sure where your friend got a peach for $2+, but it doesn't sound like a grocery store (that's somewhere around $10/pound).

It's much easier to eat healthy than it used to be - the healthier stuff is filtering down to the masses. Whole grain pasta? For an extra $.15/box I can upgrade. The "refried" beans that don't have any added fat are cheaper than all of the other ones anyway. Maybe you can't get the nicest bread that has all sorts of grains and costs $4/load, but you can get whole grain for $1.50. Fresh vegetables - they are often cheaper than anything preserved. If they aren't, grab the healthiest can of whatever. When you're walking around the grocery store, don't lean on your cart and let it drag you - stand up and push it. Compare the labels - don't just buy the cheapest stuff. you might spend an extra nickel on that can of soup, but cutting hte sodium in half is worth it. You don't need soda and chips and cookies. When you can't afford the fun stuff, you learn to make do without it. Having tasties is nice, but it's more important to eat somewhat healthy. If you're having trouble with your food spending - make a menu, buy what you need. Even better - use as many of the same elementals as you can throughout the week. That way, you can buy what's on sale and use it throughout the week. And learn that a vegetarian diet can be cheap. We try not to eat meat more than once or twice a week - it's just too expensive to do so. And don't tell me that it takes too long to make something. a couple of minutes on the stove (or a few seconds in the microwave) are enough to heat up the beans, get some wheat tortillas (the same price or a few cents more than the white), throw on some spinach leaves (commoditization has made them really cheap), and you'll be done before your neighbor gets home with that bag o' burgers.

The point is, it isn't as hard as it used to be to be healthy. Most people just refuse to look around a little.

So, yes, I believe that we are crippling the health care system. It may be struggling anyway, but we aren't doing it any favors. Just wait until the old folks get older and the young folks get lazier.

And don't get me started on how trial lawyers are doing their part to kill off the caring spirit of many of the best doctors who would have been willing to help others who couldn't have afforded care

[Swarmlord]

Can we demand that Congress revoke funding for insurance for Executive branch employees and make them pay out of pocket for their own private insurance? Can we make them live by their own words and claim that they just need to live healthier? How many heart attacks would Cheney have to have before agreeing that the system is broken? Would Cheney even be insurable?

Who's "we"? You mean getting our Senators and Congressmen to revoke the special Federal retirement and health plans that they also enjoy? Surely you jest.

[atszyman]

Who's "we"? You mean getting our Senators and Congressmen to revoke the special Federal retirement and health plans that they also enjoy? Surely you jest.

"We" are voters, those who have to live within the system set up by government employees/politicians who have tax payer funded benefits that most of us could only dream of.

I'd love to see a standard set forth where any politician who claims Social Security is broken and needs to be dismantled, and that it's "our" fault for not saving give up their government pension. Any politician who claims that healthcare is not broken should be forced to give up their taxpayer funded coverage and see what it's like for those who have to deal with the healthcare insurance industry. Any politician who claims that the poor just aren't working hard enough should have their salary dropped back to the minimum wage and be allowed to work an extra job or two to see how easy it is to make ends meet...

In short I'm tired of being told it is "our" fault we don't have X from people who've had everything handed to them all their lives and have very little need or want of money.

I'm not saying that the government should supply everything but I think anyone of the politicians who tries to blame the citizens for their problems should lead by example and show us how to overcome those problems by giving up their hefty tax payer funded salaries and/or benefits. It's easy to say its our fault for not doing X but it's so easy to do X show us.

[Abstract]

At least my family has the money and the time to do this, but just how many others are in such a position? What we're doing right now is almost impossible to pull off when you don't have $1-200 to spend on groceries alone every week for 3 people who also eat out ~10 meals a week, or the time to get up Saturday morning to go to the nearby farmers market.

I understand your point, but what we're talking about is entirely different. You're talking about someone who changed his diet due to a specific medical condition. Yes, that would be expensive. I'm talking about "in general", at any age and condition. Generally, if people made healthier food choices, that they would be helping the medical system tremendously just by lightening the load on hospitals and doctors. Bush said something about doctors being limited in their ability to help you if your condition is caused by your own vices.......like smoking (for example). That's true. If you keep smoking, and your condition stays, do you keep going back to the doctor for help? What's the point when the patient isn't being held accountable for his own health and lifestyle? He's just a repeat customer, but one that's clogging the system up with cases that can't be resolved.

Want to eat some Cheeto's as a snack? Grab an apple instead.

Do you eat too much meat for dinner? Why not eat half as much meat, but throw in a salad as well?

Feel like having your 7th coffee of the day, or your 5th can of Coke? Why not have a glass of water sometimes and only have 1 can of Coke a day, or "only" 2 cups of coffee?

Going to the 3rd floor? Take the stairs and walk up 2 levels rather than take the lift.



Exactly. I remember in HS, my friend and I went to the grocery store 'cause I was craving mac 'n' cheese (the awful-for-you Kraft kind :o). I bought a 6-box package for < $3 (note the box states that one box contains, er I think two servings so I bought essentially twelve meals). My friend wanted to lose weight so she bought a single peach for $2.xx.


If a peach costs $2.xx in your State, then you're getting ripped off, or it was off peak-season for fruits, and you're paying for one of the most expensive fruits at that time. There were other choices. Besides.....$2.xx for one peach? I never said go nuts and spend your savings buying fruit. You need to use economic sense.

I just don't want anyone coming back to me and telling me that my advice made them bankrupt. :p ;) Be partly responsible for your health, but also be responsible for your own finances. It ain't my fault if you buy $2.xx peaches.

[leekohler]

he can't discuss anything without defining a bad guy. here, i guess it's the fat lefties and those too lazy to get private insurance.

I honestly don't know any fat lefties other than Michael Moore. I know a LOT of fat conservatives though. ;)

[zimv20]

Generally, if people made healthier food choices, that they would be helping the medical system tremendously just by lightening the load on hospitals and doctors.
i have to admit, i don't understand your take here. let's take me as an example: i work out 2-3x/week, i walk 3mi roundtrip to go grocery shopping and to the butcher (1-2x/week), i cook my own food (relatively healthy stuff). my health issues are relatively minor, i don't see the doctor much, and when i have a cold or a flu i almost always take care of it myself.

BUT -- i have a pre-existing condition, am self-employed, and am eligible for exactly one insurance plan. that plan is state-sponsored, but it still costs me $530/mo, w/ a $2k deductible, for an 80/20 PPO that seems to spend more time, energy and effort in denying me coverage than for paying what little i do need.

i feel like you're painting my situation as my fault, or at least partially, but i'm doing the best i can and i still get screwed by "the Corporate Man". so what exactly are you proposing here? and are you claiming that my PPO screws me because other people are too fat?

[nbs2]

"We" are voters, those who have to live within the system set up by government employees/politicians who have tax payer funded benefits that most of us could only dream of.

Just to be clear - are you unhappy with just the politicians or with government employees as well?

Living in the land of bureaucrats, I know plenty of government employees that work two jobs in order to make ends meet, who have to reside in DINK, or who struggle for most of their early careers if they do try and have a family. Later in their service, they do a little better (but are still not living lives of luxury). The benefits, especially the pension, are what keep the people there - they could make much more cash in the private sector (my dad makes about 50% of what he could make if he went private). When you realize that the pension is essentially deferred salary, it isn't really a bad thing.

Politicians are a good deal mroe troublesome. In the past, they were some of the brightest minds in the country. Pay and benefit were intended to attract them out of the private sector. What Congress has become, well that's a whole other ball of wax.

[zimv20]

this (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/7/11/05137/4857) was posted on dailykos earlier today. it's in response to michael moore's reaction on CNN to gupta's hit piece against Sicko (apparently, gupta has since issued retractions), but it's a good rant and i thought some of it is applicable here:

Forget universal healthcare for a moment. Every day in America insured patients are wrestling with their carriers to get the coverage they've already paid for, often when those same patients are barely clinging to life. Meanwhile, many medium sized MD practices employ one or two people whose sole task is to beg health insurance companies to pay for the services rendered – often unsuccessfully -- and which their patients are ostensibly covered for, and to plea for authorization for critical medical referrals. These aren't anomalies, this isn't unusual, and it goes on all day long.

[...]

Is it too much to ask that working Americans who pony up exorbitant premiums to for-profit health insurance companies get every nickel and dime of service they have coming, with no ******** games and infamous stalling tactics? Is it unreasonable for the most recognized medical doctor/reporter in America to go to bat for his fellow MDs, specialists, and clinical labs who regularly complain they are swindled right and left out of their rightful earnings paid on a timely basis by the very insurance companies that have contracted with those practices?

[...]

Americans are suffering, some are dying, doctors are not being paid on time or in full, fees go to collections, credit ratings are ruined, nurses, junior doctors, and MAs are laid off. These doctors and patients aren’t asking for a handout. They’re looking for help in breaking down the immense corporate power structure that denies and bribes and eagerly drags its feet on legitimate claims. That help is not going to come from Congress or the WH anytime soon, not without a searchlight of shame shining on them: Too many lawmakers, left, right, and center have been bought and paid for by the healthcare lobbies like a pound of butter.

Forcing HMOs and other managed care companies to treat doctors and patients with something other than complete disregard and utter contempt, safe in the knowledge they have bought political and legal immunity, will only come from the grass roots up.

[devilot]

Bush said something about doctors being limited in their ability to help you if your condition is caused by your own vices... like smoking (for example). That's true. If you keep smoking, and your condition stays, do you keep going back to the doctor for help? Agreed on that (and yes, I did read the part of your post that said you found fault w/ the system as well as w/ most of what Bush said :p).

... or it was off peak-season for fruits, and you're paying for one of the most expensive fruits at that time. There were other choices. Besides... $2.xx for one peach? I never said go nuts and spend your savings buying fruit. You need to use economic sense. First of all, I didn't buy that peach. ;) And yes, it was likely out of season. That said, I think what I'm trying to get at that you and nbs2 aren't really addressing, aren't the middle to upper socioeconomic class, I think the folks most likely to benefit immediately from better health coverage would be the lower income bracket folks. And as for "economic sense," again, with my example, if you're a struggling family (and in part of the lower income bracket), which makes more sense-- several unhealthy meals that can feed more than one person for $3 or a some (healthy) snacks?

[atszyman]

Just to be clear - are you unhappy with just the politicians or with government employees as well?

Living in the land of bureaucrats, I know plenty of government employees that work two jobs in order to make ends meet, who have to reside in DINK, or who struggle for most of their early careers if they do try and have a family. Later in their service, they do a little better (but are still not living lives of luxury). The benefits, especially the pension, are what keep the people there - they could make much more cash in the private sector (my dad makes about 50% of what he could make if he went private). When you realize that the pension is essentially deferred salary, it isn't really a bad thing.

Politicians are a good deal mroe troublesome. In the past, they were some of the brightest minds in the country. Pay and benefit were intended to attract them out of the private sector. What Congress has become, well that's a whole other ball of wax.

Pretty much just the politicians and some of the top aides who are most vocal about terminating government programs because if you need them you're doing something wrong.

Congressmen are paid quite well and get a raise every year unless they vote not to get one. The default for inaction on raises is to get a raise... how does that work? The President and VP don't do too bad in the salary department and many of our current politicians come from money to begin with.

I know there are a lot of "crap" government jobs, someone has to clean the buildings, and I've never complained about my postman/woman getting paid too much. But I don't see them telling me that the healthcare industry is problematic because I don't life healthily enough either....

It's easy to say that we don't need healthcare reform when you have good insurance benefits, or that Social Security should be dismantled when your family has more money than they can spend in a lifetime.

[IJ Reilly]

I honestly don't know any fat lefties other than Michael Moore. I know a LOT of fat conservatives though. ;)

Well there's Ann-orexic. She looks really healthy.

[nbs2]

That said, I think what I'm trying to get at that you and nbs2 aren't really addressing, aren't the middle to upper socioeconomic class, I think the folks most likely to benefit immediately from better health coverage would be the lower income bracket folks. And as for "economic sense," again, with my example, if you're a struggling family (and in part of the lower income bracket), which makes more sense-- several unhealthy meals that can feed more than one person for $3 or a some (healthy) snacks?

In your example, it is economically (and physically) better to buy the 12 servings rather than one peach. Better to eat unhealthy for 4 days than try to stretch that piece of fruit.

But, I think the point that got lost in my diatribe was that it isn't just the folks in the middle and upper classes that can find healthy alternatives. The grocery store I go to does solid business from the poorer end of society. Absolute economic sense (in the short term) dictates that the $.90 box of pasta is a better deal than the $1.19 box. Looking at the ingredients, it's clear that the $1.19 will be better in the long run (because of physical health). Now, what sacrifice is demanded? $.29. Too often, I see that $.29 spent on cookies, snacks, soda, etc., meaning that instead of a healthy $1.19, you have an unhealthy $1.19. Each take the same amount of time to make. It's as if there is a need to get more food, even if it isn't needed and will be just be snacked on. And if we are really concerned about economic sense, we should limit our meat intake to the occasional meal. Bean tacos are a whole lot cheaper than the ground beef variety (unrelated: Goya Chipotle refried beans are among the cheapest, healthiest, and already taste good - no need for taco seasoning - some of the best tacos and burritos ever).

Another strange phenomenon is the need for branding. Comparing the nutrition labels of our generic soup and Campbells, I see that Campbells is less healthy and more expensive. But, I see a fair number of people walk into the aisle and pick up the Campbells without even so much as a pause. I don't know the SE status of these folks, but they aren't doing anything to help their body (or the healthcare system) out.

I think the Campbells is most emblematic of why universal healthcare may never work in the US, and what Bush was trying to allude to (I think - I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here). As a whole, Americans no longer take ownership their bodies. If something goes wrong, "the doctor will fix it." Universal healthcare, for all the good it would do for those that need help, would be overwhelmed by what I believe are the masses who would decide that not caring for their bodies, eating junk, and having the Dr take care of it would be cheaper than taking care of the body and eating well, using the Dr when they are otherwise ill. I really believe that a better option would be to make it financially viable (even beneficial) for Drs. and hospitals to treat those that need help, but not place so many restrictions as we currently do (a Dr should be able to send referrals to his radiologist wife). Even then, ownership in the body is essential. One of the major problems with EMTALA is that it encourages people to use the ER as their doctor's office, again increasing the cost of healthcare.

[zimv20]

ownership in the body is essential.
i agree with that. and i agree with you that too many people make too many unhealthy choices when eating.

but i think it's too easy to throw up our hands and say, "ergo, health care is forever doomed." instead, let's look at some larger issues, that apparently some people never learned how to eat healthy, or never got good practice.

can we start in the school lunchroom? how many of those programs are run by those who are focused more on profit than nutrition? (i saw a PBS segment on a chicago-area firm which has won a couple school contracts to make healthy lunches; it's rather unprofitable, and they're subsidized by a state program). what else can we do at the grade school and high school levels to not only educate, but into practice good nutrition coupled with good shopping habits?

i know everyone and their brother wants to make students take this class or that, but isn't the entire future of our healthcare dependent on this?

[IJ Reilly]

A little reality therapy is in order here. If you think you can avoid the big brand-name diseases by eating organic peaches and the right kind of soup, then you've got something else coming to you, eventually, and probably. I'm not arguing against a responsible lifestyle but, trust me on this, eating well and exercising will not insulate you from getting whacked by some disorder to which you are genetically predisposed right out of the box.

[nbs2]

A little reality therapy is in order here. If you think you can avoid the big brand-name diseases by eating organic peaches and the right kind of soup, then you've got something else coming to you, eventually, and probably. I'm not arguing against a responsible lifestyle but, trust me on this, eating well and exercising will not insulate you from getting whacked by some disorder to which you are genetically predisposed right out of the box.

Not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that by eating "organic peaches and the right kind of soup," you can minimize resource expenditure and reallocate more effictively. If less people were being treated for diseases that crop up from poor lifestyle choices, there would be more money/time/whatever for those who got whacked.

A hypothetical - There are 100 livers available for transplant each year, each procedure costs $10,000. There are 500 people who need livers - 425 who need one because of drinking/gluttony/whatever, 75 who were broadsided with some illness/accident/whatever. In the magical fairy world where nobody drinks/gluttons/etc., 5 of the 425 would have needed a liver anyway. 80 people get new livers. 20 livers go to waste, but there is a $200,000 savings to the health system that can be spent on other essential projects - or help offset the cost of healthcare. Clearly the numbers are made up, but I hope this better clarifies the point I'm trying to make.

can we start in the school lunchroom? how many of those programs are run by those who are focused more on profit than nutrition? (i saw a PBS segment on a chicago-area firm which has won a couple school contracts to make healthy lunches; it's rather unprofitable, and they're subsidized by a state program). what else can we do at the grade school and high school levels to not only educate, but into practice good nutrition coupled with good shopping habits?

i know everyone and their brother wants to make students take this class or that, but isn't the entire future of our healthcare dependent on this?

That's clearly where it needs to start - and the question indeed is how. I'm sure most of us at some point traded our sandwich for our neighbors cupcake. I don't think it will ever be possible to dissuade kids from tasties, but teaching moderation is key. I'm not a public health expert, child psychology expert, or anything else. All I got is having been a kid and having a kid. My thought, FWIW, is that it may be effective to for once and for all, have a national discussion as to when children can make decisions based on logic rather than emotion - I don't see how taking away food choices encourages good choices down the road. Another action may be to readjust the WIC program - rather than approving the cheapest staples, why not work to approve the cheaper of the healthier staples?

These are just a couple of thoughts, and I need to go eat my lunch.

[imac/cheese]

Exactly. I remember in HS, my friend and I went to the grocery store 'cause I was craving mac 'n' cheese (the awful-for-you Kraft kind :o). I bought a 6-box package for < $3 (note the box states that one box contains, er I think two servings so I bought essentially twelve meals). My friend wanted to lose weight so she bought a single peach for $2.xx.

Hmm. One peach for nearly the same price as twelve (allbeit unhealthy) meals. Now imagine you're a family or even a single parent struggling to make ends meet and your family/kids are hungry (duh)-- which would you opt for?

Eating healthy is not cheap. Nor, as janey so aptly demonstrated, is it for those without the time and energy to keep up.

The one problem that creates the most other health problems is being overweight. Everything from high blood pressure to heart disease to diabeties can often be linked to obesity. The problem isn't that the person in the lower economic level couldn't afford a peach and had to buy the mac and cheese 6 pack, the problem is that when they cooked the mac and cheese they ate too much of it and became fat.

Vegetables and fruits and whole grains are important for healthy living, but so is controlling how much we eat. They might not have gotten all the essential nutrients they needed because they couldn't afford a more heathy (expensive) alternative but they got fat because they ate too much and more health problems come from being fat than from malnutrition.

[imac/cheese]

Now, when you consider who exactly is part of the reason for overcrowding clinics and hospitals - it's those people working too hard to make a living to support themselves and perhaps their family who don't have the time or money to live an active and healthy lifestyle. And even if they maybe had the time to live an active and healthy lifestyle, who'd promote such a thing? Perhaps, the doctors they don't necessarily have the money to go to.

I'm not saying that that's not a good idea, it is sensible to promote such a lifestyle, but it's not feasible as is right now to solve the overcrowding issue on its own without solving some other issues first (affordable healthcare for starters), let alone the healthcare industry's corruption.

I really wish the monkey would be impeached already. So sick of his ignorance.

Come on... this quote about people not having enough time to live an active and healthy lifestyle is bunk! The average American watches something like four hours of TV a day. It only takes about 30 minutes of exercise to be considered living a heathly active lifestyle. People are just lazy (me included many times) and don't want to live a heathy lifestyle but it is definitely not because they do not have the time.

There are a few exceptions of people who work 18 hour days etc, etc, but the
average person has plenty of time to do whatever they want to do.

[leekohler]

Come on... this quote about people not having enough time to live an active and healthy lifestyle is bunk! The average American watches something like four hours of TV a day. It only takes about 30 minutes of exercise to be considered living a heathly active lifestyle. People are just lazy (me included many times) and don't want to live a heathy lifestyle but it is definitely not because they do not have the time.

There are a few exceptions of people who work 18 hour days etc, etc, but the
average person has plenty of time to do whatever they want to do.

That I'll agree with 100%. Even when I was dead broke and working 2 jobs, I still went to the gym. The YMCA is pretty damn affordable too.

[IJ Reilly]

Not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that by eating "organic peaches and the right kind of soup," you can minimize resource expenditure and reallocate more effictively. If less people were being treated for diseases that crop up from poor lifestyle choices, there would be more money/time/whatever for those who got whacked.

Sure, I'm not arguing against living right.

The new frontier in medicine is genetic testing. More and more, we will know our individual genetic exposures to disease. The health care system in place today is totally unprepared for what this will mean. In fact, the only way it seems prepared to address this is by discriminating against people with higher risks of developing expensive diseases. The president is quite clearly throwing his lot in with the old way of doing business. He is as out of touch on this issue as he is with most others.

[zimv20]

It only takes about 30 minutes of exercise to be considered living a heathly active lifestyle.
but since when does 30 minutes of exercise take 30 minutes?

on wednesdays, i go to the gym for an hour session w/ a trainer. but when i factor in travel time, warm up, warm down and shower, it's 3 hours.

if i go for a run, even a short one, i have to stretch 30-90 minutes beforehand, depending on how loose/tight my muscles are.

racquetball at the Y? (which is $46/mo, i think it should be cheaper, lee). i must coordinate w/ my racquetball partner, stretch beforehand, walk down there, play, walk back. usually 3-4 hour time commitment.

i work it all in, yeah, but let's not kid ourselves on what kind of commitment it is. and it looks like i'm going back to full-time work, and probably 50-60 hours at that (not including another 12-15 hrs/week commute), and i wonder how i'll manage the time.

[aquajet]

You don't even need to pay for a gym membership. There are many small steps people can take to live healthier but are just too lazy to do. Take the stairs, take a walk after work for 30 mins, or stop searching for the closest damn parking spot at the grocery. Heck, find the furthest possible spot and sprint for the door. People might stare at you for a second, but who cares?

All the little things add up, and unfortunately far too many people won't even bother with the little things.

[leekohler]

but since when does 30 minutes of exercise take 30 minutes?

on wednesdays, i go to the gym for an hour session w/ a trainer. but when i factor in travel time, warm up, warm down and shower, it's 3 hours.

if i go for a run, even a short one, i have to stretch 30-90 minutes beforehand, depending on how loose/tight my muscles are.

racquetball at the Y? (which is $46/mo, i think it should be cheaper, lee). i must coordinate w/ my racquetball partner, stretch beforehand, walk down there, play, walk back. usually 3-4 hour time commitment.

i work it all in, yeah, but let's not kid ourselves on what kind of commitment it is. and it looks like i'm going back to full-time work, and probably 50-60 hours at that (not including another 12-15 hrs/week commute), and i wonder how i'll manage the time.

The Y is free or the prices are significantly reduced to people with low incomes as I understand it.

http://www.lakeviewymca.org/memFinancial.html

[IJ Reilly]

I just listened the president's remarks on health care. He seems to commit at least one major factual error. Health insurance premiums are already 100% deductible, so this "level playing field" he thinks will help is already in place. But that does little to mitigate skyrocketing premiums, nothing to help people who can't afford the premiums in the first place, more to help people in higher income brackets who already can afford the premiums than for people in middle incomes who are having the biggest problem paying them, and of course nothing whatsoever to stop insurance company cherry-picking customers and otherwise jerking around those they do choose to insure. I could go on and on, but what's the point?

[imac/cheese]

but since when does 30 minutes of exercise take 30 minutes?

on wednesdays, i go to the gym for an hour session w/ a trainer. but when i factor in travel time, warm up, warm down and shower, it's 3 hours.

if i go for a run, even a short one, i have to stretch 30-90 minutes beforehand, depending on how loose/tight my muscles are.

racquetball at the Y? (which is $46/mo, i think it should be cheaper, lee). i must coordinate w/ my racquetball partner, stretch beforehand, walk down there, play, walk back. usually 3-4 hour time commitment.

i work it all in, yeah, but let's not kid ourselves on what kind of commitment it is. and it looks like i'm going back to full-time work, and probably 50-60 hours at that (not including another 12-15 hrs/week commute), and i wonder how i'll manage the time.

Come on... just because it takes 3-4 hours for you to play racquetball doesn't mean that you can't get 30 minutes of exercise in 30 minutes. If I want to walk my dog around my block for 30 minutes... it takes me about 30 minutes. Walking is the easiest exercise for most people to start doing and low and behold it is also the one exercise that most people actually stick with once they get into a routine. It is also low impact and burns about as many calories as running (mile per mile--running it just faster and has additional aerobic benefits).

If people started a simple exercise routine like walking around the block for 30 minutes every day instead of sitting on the couch watching TV they would be a lot more healthy and less fat. They would also feel better, look better, be happier, and if they exercised with their families they would spend more time talking with their kids and spouse.

[skunk]

If people started a simple exercise routine like walking around the block for 30 minutes every day instead of sitting on the couch watching TV they would be a lot more healthy and less fat.The best way to do this is to acquire a dog.

[dswoodley]

The best way to do this is to acquire a dog.

Or have a toddler - I am constantly on my feet running around.

[zimv20]

If I want to walk my dog around my block for 30 minutes... it takes me about 30 minutes. Walking is the easiest exercise for most people
i already walk. 3 miles r/t for groceries. the same 3 miles r/t for racquetball. i walk a lot, and i enjoy it. but it in and of itself doesn't keep me in shape, and it takes a long time (at about 16-17 minute/mile pace).

lifting, running and racquetball all keep me in shape, and those all demand a non-trivial time commitment.

if walking were part of my job, maybe that would be enough (but many of the letter carriers i see aren't in great shape). but it's not a part of my job, and i'm simply saying that it isn't as easy as you make it sound. especially in the past when i commonly worked 80-100 hour weeks. talk about making oneself sick...

[imac/cheese]

i already walk. 3 miles r/t for groceries. the same 3 miles r/t for racquetball. i walk a lot, and i enjoy it. but it in and of itself doesn't keep me in shape, and it takes a long time (at about 16-17 minute/mile pace).

lifting, running and racquetball all keep me in shape, and those all demand a non-trivial time commitment.

if walking were part of my job, maybe that would be enough (but many of the letter carriers i see aren't in great shape). but it's not a part of my job, and i'm simply saying that it isn't as easy as you make it sound. especially in the past when i commonly worked 80-100 hour weeks. talk about making oneself sick...

Walking around the block is as easy as I make it sound. No, walking won't get you six-pack abs or make you buff, but it will help control your weight which will lead to fewer health problems. My point was not about being in great shape it was about living an active life style and a 30 minute walk each day will definitely be an increase to one's activity level. If one does not increase their caloric intake and adds a 30 minute walk to their daily routine, they will get into better shape and lose weight.

Fat letter carriers that walk all day delivering mail eat too much.

If one is working 80-100 hours per week, a 30 minte walk around the block would do a lot to help them wind down, relax, and stretch their legs a bit all while burning calories and improving health.

[Ugg]

I just listened the president's remarks on health care. He seems to commit at least one major factual error. Health insurance premiums are already 100% deductible, so this "level playing field" he thinks will help is already in place. But that does little to mitigate skyrocketing premiums, nothing to help people who can't afford the premiums in the first place, more to help people in higher income brackets who already can afford the premiums than for people in middle incomes who are having the biggest problem paying them, and of course nothing whatsoever to stop insurance company cherry-picking customers and otherwise jerking around those they do choose to insure. I could go on and on, but what's the point?

Yeah, there's not much hope with the current administration. They simply choose to ignore the fact the pre existing conditions rule out insurance for most people. All people need to be insurable or the system is simply going to go up in smoke.

[Flowbee]

From the looks of this thread, the President's comments seem to have done exactly what he intended: change the debate from 'universal health care' to 'personal responsibility.' Mission accomplished.

[IJ Reilly]

From the looks of this thread, the President's comments seem to have done exactly what he intended: change the debate from 'universal health care' to 'personal responsibility.' Mission accomplished.

Nicely observed. To quote our Dear Leader, "Fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again."

[Swarmlord]

From the looks of this thread, the President's comments seem to have done exactly what he intended: change the debate from 'universal health care' to 'personal responsibility.' Mission accomplished.

Can't ask for more than that. Personal responsibility is the core of my personal belief system.

[skunk]

Personal responsibility is the core of my personal belief system.I'll let my signature respond to this, I think.

[IJ Reilly]

I'll let my signature respond to this, I think.

Ouch. :D

[leekohler]

Can't ask for more than that. Personal responsibility is the core of my personal belief system.

Yep- it's everyone's fault they're not rich (or don't work at a hospital).

[zimv20]

living an active life style and a 30 minute walk each day will definitely be an increase to one's activity level.
fair enough. but i look at this as sort of the default baseline of living in a city: you're going to be walking a certain amount, anyway. and if not, probably best just to move to the suburbs. :-)

[it5five]

Yep- it's everyone's fault they're not rich (or don't work at a hospital).

Or that they have pre-existing conditions that make them uninsurable.

[aquajet]

Or that they have pre-existing conditions that make them uninsurable.

I've already told a simplified version of my story, but I'll go ahead and add this: I don't ever foresee myself having to deal with the issue in any significant manner again, but through my experiences, I've met many others who have dealt with this issue for many years, throughout their entire lives basically. What happens if I find myself in the hospital again? No insurance company would cover me and I would be up a **** creek. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people out there dealing with this scenario.

And then there's a much more sinister side of the story involving allegations about how the pharmaceutical companies providing medications for this condition have intentionally withheld evidence of serious side effects and how they've actively sought to discredit others who have attempted to explore these negative side effects and how they've also bribed doctors to prescribe their medications in ways that haven't been approved by the FDA.

The more I think about it, the more I hope the greedy little money fiends find themselves in the Ninth Circle.

[thewhitehart]

You know what disturbs me? Like thousands of other Americans, I do have private health insurance, but I still pay substantial deductibles out of pocket.

I'm not talking about the $20 co-charge. I'm talking about the $650 bill I got slammed with by a doctor as her "personal fee". Most insurance companies refuse to pay this fee. You get your hospital bill, which the insurance covers, and then the doctor's bill, which it doesn't.

My health care provider has given me the run around, and I've spent literally hours on the phone going through prompts that a person of average intelligence, or an elderly person, would not be able to cope with. When I finally do get a human voice on the other end, I'm given a speech full of technical legal jargon, ultimately detailing that though it may not be my responsibility to pay the fee, it is my responsibility to explain to the doctor how to get reimbursed. I'm not an insurance salesman, and I'm not being paid to understand the finer points of insurance policies.

Health insurance is the perfect exploit. It is too complicated not to be entirely service orientated. Yet the demand is so great, the providers have free reign to treat their customers however they want. Like AT&T, no health insurance company goes out of business. It just gets called something else.

And as for eating healthy and exercising? I'm from New York. Lax federal environmental standards and emissions standards poison the atmosphere in Harlem. Every black kid has asthma. They're too poor to afford health insurance. Go out and exercise in that air? **** You, George Bush.

I cracked my ankle when I lived in England. 7 hours in the waiting room, a painful but slight inconvenience. Having my taxes actually pay for something? 'Nuff said.

[Abstract]

i feel like you're painting my situation as my fault, or at least partially, but i'm doing the best i can and i still get screwed by "the Corporate Man". so what exactly are you proposing here? and are you claiming that my PPO screws me because other people are too fat?

You have a pre-existing condition! I have used the word "generally" quite a few times.

No offense, but nobody is talking about your health, specifically. People don't talk about the government expenditure towards zimv20's healthcare because most people don't know about that, nor really care specifically about your case. When people talk about federal costs, they're talking about the total cost for the State, Country, or however the American government deal with this issue.

People obviously don't have a choice if they're genetically predisposed to something (eg: diabetes), and of course people shouldn't be punished for it. Nobody should be punished for any of this, and everyone should receive free healthcare.

But if you forget about the government for a second, and you don't think about what your government can and cannot do, and just concentrate on the idea of "healthcare" and why some of us use it.......then of course getting more people to live healthier would be an easy way to save money long-term. Of course, this would be very very difficult for any government to do, but the idea itself is good.


It's too difficult to make everyone accountable for their own health. Actually, it's impossible. What I agree with is the fact that we'd spend less money on healthcare if people didn't create such a high cost for society as a whole by believing we can eat whatever we want, smoke whatever we can, and drink as much alcohol as we want. That is true.

A little reality therapy is in order here. If you think you can avoid the big brand-name diseases by eating organic peaches and the right kind of soup, then you've got something else coming to you, eventually, and probably.

I never claimed it would.


[b]eating well and exercising will not insulate you from getting whacked by some disorder to which you are genetically predisposed right out of the box.

I never claimed this, either. I never said you would completely avoid bad health, disease, or death by eating better.

I also didn't say that the general public would completely avoid bad health, disease, or death by eating better. I said that if people......by and large....would eat better and took better care of themselves, the pressure on the healthcare system as a whole would decrease. If a higher percentage of people lived healthier made smarter choices, why wouldn't it?

I'm sure that by looking at some individual cases....some of you would not benefit at all. After all, eating better isn't going to prevent you from accidentally getting hit by that truck tomorrow, is it. However, as a whole? Surely it would.


And I disagree that promoting a healthier lifestyle is geared towards the rich and middle class rather than low income families. I know lots of vegetarians who say they save money by being vegetarians. Ever look at the cost of meat? It's not cheap. Same with smoking, and yet lots of low income people manage to buy cigarettes.


At this point, I'm surprised nobody has cropped up and said "My grandfather smoked for 60 years, and he never suffered any health problems at all due to smoking!"

[geese]

And as for eating healthy and exercising? I'm from New York. Lax federal environmental standards and emissions standards poison the atmosphere in Harlem. Every black kid has asthma. They're too poor to afford health insurance. Go out and exercise in that air? **** You, George Bush.


Slightly off topic, but you cant blame lack of healthy eating and exercise on Bush.

I cycle everyday in dirty East London. If i didnt cycle I'd walk lots, or do more running. Surely there are areas in NY in which you can do that?

[Edandlindz28]

If we want to promote healthy living and physical acitivity it starts in school. Put PE back in school.

[Ugg]

No offense, but nobody is talking about your health, specifically.

Ah, so the issue is one huge, grey, amorphous blob that can only be dealt with in generalities.

That's where you're absolutely wrong. It's entirely about "citizens" of the US. We all have a story and that story is going to influence how we approach the issue.

Talk about eating right and exercise is all fine and dandy, however, it's not the solution. For those of us who do all the right things yet have a health issue, it's sort of a moot point, isn't it?

[IJ Reilly]

I never claimed it would.

I recognize that, and I believe we've already had much of the follow-on discussion. But as was pointed out above, Bush has successfully changed the subject from the critical faults in the current health care system to "personal responsibility." I was making an effort to keep the spotlight where I think it really belongs, on a system which is ineffective, discriminatory, unnecessarily costly, and in many respects, cruel and unusual.

[dswoodley]

I recognize that, and I believe we've already had much of the follow-on discussion. But as was pointed out above, Bush has successfully changed the subject from the critical faults in the current health care system to "personal responsibility." I was making an effort to keep the spotlight where I think it really belongs, on a system which is ineffective, discriminatory, unnecessarily costly, and in many respects, cruel and unusual.

I'll one up you. Don't just point fingers at a "system" - that's too easy and holds far fewer people accountable than it should. The system is made of people who make incredibly short-sighted decisions.

[janey]

If we want to promote healthy living and physical acitivity it starts in school. Put PE back in school.
This is the only thing I'll actually quote, cause I'm too lazy to multiquote right now. PE is in schools right now. Unfortunately throughout my 5 years of having PE as a dedicated class in middle and high school, I only remember one teacher who bothered to actually teach us about something and made us get off of our asses. I hated running the minimum 5 minutes or having to do this or that despite the occasional inability to do so, but he made me break all my old habits. I actually missed his classes when I was pulled out for various reasons because it was non-academic. So really, I think the main problem is that even though PE might be in schools, the right teachers aren't there.

@Abstract, my point was not that it's expensive to change when you have some medical condition that would benefit from doing so. It's that (particularly if you read the link I posted above the personal experience bit) eating healthier is not that easy when money is tight. Not to mention the existence all the lower class people who actually do have medical conditions (e.g. diabetes) where such a drastic switch would be beneficial.

But I mean switching from the cheapo bread and peanut butter to whole wheat bread with some lettuce and tomato and a slice of meat. This is simple to do for someone who regularly buys and can regularly afford to buy all that. Not everyone falls into that category, particularly those people without health insurance. Now, the more people who choose whole wheat bread with veggies, the better, but they're not necessarily the only population who should change, what about those who'd choose the former bread+pb because of the cost of buying the (slightly more expensive) whole wheat bread with the (not that expensive but still more than the peanut butter) veggies?

I'm not denying the existence of *******s who buy cigs and beer and buy the cheaper bag of chips over the slightly more expensive apples (in the equivalent serving quantity of course) because the chips are cheaper and the kid wants some food, because I've seen them tell their kids to shut up with my own eyes. But that's not necessarily everyone, and even people like those should be taught not to do that. But hey, where's the money to start those advocacy groups to really get the word out there and help people quit or the money for those people to go see a doctor who'd tell them to stop smoking or drinking and eat healthier? Let's ban cigarettes and alcohol instead! :D *ducks from flames*

@imac/cheese: I'm not denying that many people have the time to go work out if they just budgeted their time better or that working out and eating healthily on a regular basis is a good thing.

But you know, there's this whole huge section of the population...that cannot necessarily afford healthcare that would certainly benefit from affordable healthcare which would certainly be one start to fixing our broken system...that do not get it through work, and also are truly too busy to do such a thing.

I'm all for the taking stairs over elevator idea, I do it all the time, 3-4 flights up in the morning for chem lab, two for CS, whoops I have to go use the restroom and the one on this floor is busy so 1 for that, then half a mile walk to get lunch and 2 flights in the library...you get the idea. But I can't always go work out regularly. While in school...well, I have classes for a few hours, then I have to run some errands. I come home, need to do homework and study for tests. Then it's dinnertime, then back to studying extra so I can go out tomorrow night with friends. And then I need to practise piano for a performance, then I need to take a shower, and then have some "me" time to catch up on things I don't have time to do during breaks (macrumors! :D ), and there's always a couple movies or tv shows I want to watch too. After all that it's midnight.

So, I try to multitask - word from the experienced: never EVER try to read from a 1300-page organic chem textbook on a treadmill. I dump e-learning podcasts/audiobooks/movies/audio notes/class recordings on my iPod (now iPhone) to listen to while on the elliptical, and watch TV and movies on the iPhone too. I almost never go to the gym, cause I might be "done" with the bulk of my stuff by midnight, but HEY! I need sleep for my 7:30am class :( In fact, my mom bought the elliptical for me cause it was what I used most at the gym when I did go, and buying it was cheaper than a gym membership. I just leech off of a friend's whenever I do go to the gym, like biweekly with some friends. Otherwise I get like a 2 month membership when I don't have classes. So there's healthy multitasking for college students for you :p



Anyway, back on topic. I was at a local ER last night cause I was having an awful asthma attack (upside: no long wait like other poor souls there..). I am REALLY not looking forward to any bills or anything else that might happen as a result. Even without that, I just have the most awful memories of being denied coverage for certain treatments then (successfully *faint in shock*) appealing them, but not without a big fight. I cannot believe I'm just throwing money at these companies, I just can't.

It's not like the money's actually going to the doctors either, a lot of them are getting smaller fees for their services performed from the insurance companies while the policyholders are being told their premiums are going up. Thank you SO much WellPoint...I REALLY wonder where that's going.

Other systems may be broken (like the NHS) but not as much as this. Boutique hospitals accepting ER patients galore only to rip them off in the end because they don't contract with insurers so they charge the normal rates and..dear god. If the insurance situation wasn't sickening enough.

I'd honestly rather ****ing die than go bankrupt and uninsured from a hospital stay in this country.