Woz Reveals Plans [Archive] - MacRumors Forums

MacRumors

Jul 21, 2003, 08:17 AM

This New York Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/21/technology/21ZEUS.html?ex=1059451200&en=3971bc38a8fc70e9&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE) reveals what Steve Wozniak has been up to with his new company -- Wheels of Zeus.

wireless location-monitoring technology that would use electronic tags to help people keep track of their animals, children or property.

The company is set to launch their first products next year which will carry the name "WozNet". WozNet is described as a wireless network that uses a combination of radio signals and GPS (Global Positioning Satellites) to be able to track the inexpensive (<$25/tag) tags. The tracking appears limited to within one to two miles of each "base station". Base stations would have to be installed at the various locations that users would want to keep track of items. (schools, parks etc...)

Mr. Anderson

Jul 21, 2003, 08:19 AM

Has potential, but not exactly something to get all that excited about.

I guess the first case of dog-napping or kidnapping that gets solved by using this system will cause all pet owners/parents to go out and get them.

Then when you turn 18 can you get them removed ;)

D

MetallicPenguin

Jul 21, 2003, 08:25 AM

I'm not sure if we're talking about tags, or like under-skin tags, I guess it would be under the skin since it mentioned animals but still I really don't like the idea of putting tags in your children....mostly because I am one and I think it's quite unneeded.

Update: 'm pretty sure it's not because in the picture in the article the chip Woz is holding is pretty big

mactastic

Jul 21, 2003, 08:25 AM

That's it? Tracking your pets? I thought Woz would be doing something more groundbreaking than that. Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems kinda, well, anticlimactic from the guy who helped bring us apple.

crenz

Jul 21, 2003, 08:27 AM

Hmm... I can see a lot of privacy issues with this one if it's going to be used for children. Not sure whether it would be so helpful against a kidnapper if he can just bring the child out of the reach of a "base station"... but it sure would be good for not-so-benevolent parents to monitor their kids!

MetallicPenguin

Jul 21, 2003, 08:31 AM

Yeah I could see it working with laptops or something though, I won't want to lose it when I buy mine. But then again what are the chances someone will steal it?

Wonder Boy

Jul 21, 2003, 08:34 AM

sounds cool, im always losing my keys and wallet.

Alexander

Jul 21, 2003, 08:45 AM

I think the really interesting thing here is that if this works (which it may not), they will have effectively set up a nationwide low-speed data network for free.

whfsdude

Jul 21, 2003, 09:00 AM

Sweet. I wonder if you could put the base station in your car. Slip this tags in someone **** and track them haha!

Sonofhaig

Jul 21, 2003, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by MetallicPenguin
......but still I really don't like the idea of putting tags in your children....mostly because I am one and I think it's quite unneeded.

Tell that to a parent that has had his child taken from them.
I think it's the future. Regardless of those who like quoting
REVELATIONS and referring to the "mark of the beast".

This will be a successful venture.

job

Jul 21, 2003, 09:12 AM

I'm not trying to turn this into a pseudo-political thread, but what's to stop the US Government or other governements from using this sort of technology to track individual citizens?

whfsdude

Jul 21, 2003, 09:40 AM

Wes

Jul 21, 2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by whfsdude
The fact that the government is a noob when it comes to computers :D

Well they can't be too nooby because without the US government's initial funding to link their weapon's facilities, there would be no internet.

Kid Red

Jul 21, 2003, 10:05 AM

Wow, a low jack for scruffy. What a dumb idea. I am a parent and I won't be utilizing this technology on my child, it's very limited in thwarting kidnapping anyway.

eric_n_dfw

Jul 21, 2003, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Sonofhaig
Tell that to a parent that has had his child taken from them.
I think it's the future. Regardless of those who like quoting
REVELATIONS and referring to the "mark of the beast".

This will be a successful venture. I don't think he was saying people would have religious reasons to avoid this system - I thin khe meant that parents should be more aware of where their kids are.

That being said, as the father of a 22 month old and a christian, I think the idea is great. I just don't know how practical the base station instalation is.

BTW - Anyone who says things like, "it's the number of the beast", doesn't know what they are talking about. (That's a whole other discussion though!)

eric_n_dfw

Jul 21, 2003, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Kid Red
Wow, a low jack for scruffy. What a dumb idea. I am a parent and I won't be utilizing this technology on my child, it's very limited in thwarting kidnapping anyway. While I disagree with the "dumb" comment, I do agree that it has a very limited capability to thwart kidnapping. Short of surgical implantation, any device like this would be pretty easy to find and remove by the kidnapper. (And borg-ifying my son by implanting it doesn't sound to my liking either)

(As for the Scruffy low-jack comment - I won't be buying it for my dog either... I WISH she would run away ;) ;) :rolleyes: )

Freg3000

Jul 21, 2003, 10:11 AM

A 1 to 2 mile radius is not that big. you would need a lot of base stations installed first before this might catch on. But once you get past that, there were a lot of things this is good for. I mean, how many things do you lose all the time? You keys, wallet, cell phone? Or how about more important things, like notebooks and children? Not groundbreaking in my book, but cool nonetheless.

markomarko

Jul 21, 2003, 10:14 AM

Especially for calving season. Ranchers could get to new calves much quicker, by finding their GPS-tagged mothers. Would also help put an end to cattle wrangling. It still happens believe it or not.

P-Worm

Jul 21, 2003, 10:24 AM

I think we are starting to catch on to the potential of this thing. When I first glanced at it, it seemed like an anti kidnapping thing that might not work. But the keys and cattle are great uses for this. Imagine if they could use rendezvous to make every active laptop a base station. Nothing would ever get lost again.

All they have to do is make the chips small and cheap enough to put on anything.

P-Worm

yzedf

Jul 21, 2003, 10:35 AM

LowJack for warm bodies eh?

How long has W.O.Z. been working on this idea?

I think Woz should stick with hacking hardware. This RFID thing (and others like it) is getting a little out of hand.

Might be a good idea for locating prisoners and such...

For generic info on RFID:

http://www.aimglobal.org/technologies/rfid/

IJ Reilly

Jul 21, 2003, 10:47 AM

I can imagine a lot of potential applications for this technology, some already mentioned, and not all "big brother is watching" sorts of deals. A lot will depend on the accuracy, range and reliability of the technology. Okay Woz, you've got my attention... again.

SubGothius

Jul 21, 2003, 10:53 AM

FWIW, Re: tagging kids, I don't see it as primarily a kidnapping-thwarter, what with the limited range, tho' could help if the kid gets napped before your very eyes, so you know they're napped and can track 'em before they get outta range (and/or the napper finds and removes the tag -- I don't see these things likely being implanted :-).

Rather, I see it being used more around the neighborhood to help answer that eternal question, "Now that dinner's ready, where's my kid run off to? At the park, the corner store, the library, one of several playmates...?" Or similarly, while shopping at the mall or mega-mart, or out camping on vacation, at local festivals/fairs...

Flowbee

Jul 21, 2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Wonder Boy
sounds cool, im always losing my keys and wallet.

Wireless electronic locator:
http://www.sharperimage.com/us/en/catalog/productview.jhtml?pid=45937300&pcatid=1&catid=108

I certainly hope for Woz's sake that there are more ground-breaking applications for this technology than what are discussed in the article. Sounds like it might be an expensive way to keep track of your pet, and an ineffective way to keep track of your kids. There are already solutions for keeping track of your keys and cars.

Jon the Heretic

Jul 21, 2003, 11:15 AM

Actually, I think this is fantastic, especially at $25 a pop! Low cost would be vital to its success. I imagine the tags could probably be engraved too, which means they could serve as traditional ID tags as well.

Range: You guys need the Vision Thing(tm)...base stations are going up everywhere at an incredible rate. The government might even set up a few at popular demand, but private industry would drive this further than anything Uncle Sam could do.

Privacy: Dogs lick their own crotches. Privacy is irrelevant. For children: This is elective; don't use it if you don't want it. For those of us who see the merit in this, I don't think think the privacy of children outweigh's the prerogative of the parent to act as the steward of their children and their children's interests.

Other uses: hiding these tags in cars and elsewhere could really foil a lot of would be thieves. And they are cheap. Buy several.

Potential abuses that I see: Sniffers (mobile units for sniffing out the tags) could be used to LOCATE children and or valuables MORE EASILY for nefarious purposes. The same sniffer might make it trivial to remove the tag once the child or object has been located. They'd have to work on how to avoid this...

Flowbee

Jul 21, 2003, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Jon the Heretic
Actually, I think this is fantastic, especially at $25 a pop! Low cost would be vital to its success.

It's $25 to *manufacture* the tag. The retail price will probably be much higher. There is also the cost of the 'base station' and probably a subscription service of some kind (though that's just my speculation). Don't expect this to be a cheap way to keep track of your dog.

i_am_a_cow

Jul 21, 2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
BTW - Anyone who says things like, "it's the number of the beast", doesn't know what they are talking about. (That's a whole other discussion though!)

Yes, but don't you see that this technology could make implanting chips seem like no big deal. Of course little tracking tags aren't the mark of the beast. The Mark of the beast will be for consumerism and people will depend on it. No one can depend upon this. But, if this leads to the casual implanting of circuits in peoples bodies... That is what people are worried about. ;)

______________________________
If anyone would like to question me on this issue, feel free to go right ahead. I have heard some pretty ignorant comments regarding evolution vs. creation on this forum... :rolleyes:

Flowbee

Jul 21, 2003, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Jon the Heretic

Other uses: hiding these tags in cars and elsewhere could really foil a lot of would be thieves.

How would this foil a car thief? The way I understand it, if there's a tag in your car, you would get a page letting you know your car is leaving the parking lot.

As for there being a huge network of these 'base stations' covering the country in a blanket of security, I live 15 minutes ouside of San Francisco, and I still have trouble getting cell phone service in certain neighborhoods.

Alexander

Jul 21, 2003, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Flowbee
It's $25 to *manufacture* the tag. The retail price will probably be much higher. There is also the cost of the 'base station' and probably a subscription service of some kind (though that's just my speculation). Don't expect this to be a cheap way to keep track of your dog.

I was going to mention that, but then realized that they're probably going to sell the hardware with little to no profit margin, and make their money on recurring subscription fees.

Nebrie

Jul 21, 2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by MetallicPenguin
I'm not sure if we're talking about tags, or like under-skin tags, I guess it would be under the skin since it mentioned animals but still I really don't like the idea of putting tags in your children....mostly because I am one and I think it's quite unneeded.

Update: 'm pretty sure it's not because in the picture in the article the chip Woz is holding is pretty big

Uh no. You stick one in their backpack, on a keychain, on a belt. For a dog, you put it on their collar.

Mudbug

Jul 21, 2003, 12:03 PM

It just seems that there is very little innovation for this as a product from such an innovative person. I'm not doubting it's success as a product, or it's failure, depending on your view, just that it doesn't seem very "new" and "different" like a Segway, or a Megway, for that matter. :)

Seems like a lot of time and effort going into something with a relatively small market, that for YOUR initial cost of $25 or so seems small, but if you can only use it in a 4 city block area, then seems rather useless. Unless cities and townships, highway departments, infrastructure departments and the like all invest to put base stations everywhere. And that I doubt. So this is good for what again?

Les Kern

Jul 21, 2003, 12:03 PM

I'll bet John Ashcroft's nipples are hard.

Glossybear

Jul 21, 2003, 12:28 PM

I don't think Woz has tipped his whole hand with this article. I'm sure there is going to be some "Killer App" for this system and don't think it involves dogs or kids.

To me the nest use of tech is to iron-out the snags and hangups of everyday life. To make is seem silly that there were times I would spend hours hunting for my keys.

I for one would like to see the tags integrated into my cell-phone, TiVo remote, and wallet. Then I could have a dynamic map of my apartment with locations for all my crap that I keep loosing.

IJ Reilly

Jul 21, 2003, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Mudbug
Seems like a lot of time and effort going into something with a relatively small market, that for YOUR initial cost of $25 or so seems small, but if you can only use it in a 4 city block area, then seems rather useless. Unless cities and townships, highway departments, infrastructure departments and the like all invest to put base stations everywhere. And that I doubt. So this is good for what again?

Offices, hospitals, and schools, to name just a few?

("Mr. Smith isn't at his desk right now, but I see he's in conference room B. Would you like me to forward your call?")

Jerry Spoon

Jul 21, 2003, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by Les Kern
I'll bet John Ashcroft's nipples are hard.
HA! I love it!

I'm thinking that if security issues mentioned above and cost issues are pleasing to consumers, this could be something that has some potential. Time will tell.

MrMacMan

Jul 21, 2003, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Les Kern
I'll bet John Ashcroft's nipples are hard.

Uh oh, better cover them up... *sigh*
Ashcroft: Those Statues have nudity!
Everyone else: so?
Ashcroft: I can't be seen in front of those!
Everyone else: What the hell are you on? Its a frikken Statue.
Ashcroft: Must install cameras everywhere!

Meh, it *sounds* good, but 2 Mile Radius... eh kinda weak and there has been alot of new tracking devices so I'm not sure how *this* one will do better then the rest.

theFly

Jul 21, 2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Offices, hospitals, and schools, to name just a few?

("Mr. Smith isn't at his desk right now, but I see he's in conference room B. Would you like me to forward your call?")

That sounds like Star Trek.

"Computer, where is Mr. LaForge?"

"Mr. LaForge is in Engineering, B-Deck."

It will be interesting to see if the system can handle physical horizontal space (ie knowing the difference between rooms) and vertical space (knowing the difference between floors).

Of course, a nice little application on the bosses computer, with a tag planted in your ID badge and it about to become...

"Hey, what's theFly doing at Blarney's Pub at 9:30 in the morning?"

theFly
www.flyonthemac.com
Rumors You Can Bet On

imiloa

Jul 21, 2003, 02:14 PM

check out "digital angel" by ADSX. they've been working publically on similar concepts for several years. they have a subdermal product called "verichip" for pets, possibly human children in the future, pending politics/regulation.

ADSX has been battered with all manner of grief from regulators on privacy issues and religious organizations claiming this concept is the mythical "mark of the beast" (666, revelations, etc...).

only difference with woznet seems the price. at present, the DA system is more expensive than $25/unit. but they've been at it for a long time, so they could probably release cheaper units to compete with woz.

http://www.digitalangelcorp.com/

Les Kern

Jul 21, 2003, 02:15 PM

That sounds like Star Trek

Ashcroft: "Computer, where is Mr. Kern?"
Computer: "Mr. Kern is at BushWatch.com"
Ashcroft: "Computer, kill him."

Jokes aside, these are the baby steps I speak of often that through time and our collective amnesia morph from "good idea!" to a tool of the evil.

WM.

Jul 21, 2003, 02:27 PM

I don't see how there would be a subscription for using this system any more than there is one for your home AirPort network. What service would you subscribe to? The tag is simply a GPS receiver that can transmit its location to a base station.

As for concerns about other people finding your kids or whatever, the article does say that the network can be encrypted. Read it thoroughly, people...

And it's not a "4-city-block" area--in Seattle, at least, I think a mile is about 20 blocks. Plus Woz says it's up to two miles, which would be 40 blocks--I'd say that's a pretty significant distance, especially for a kid on foot or even on a bike.

WM

Flowbee

Jul 21, 2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
("Mr. Smith isn't at his desk right now, but I see he's in conference room B. Would you like me to forward your call?")

More like: "Mr. Smith, we notice that you've been using the bathroom an average of 6 times daily. We feel this is excessive."

Or

"Mr. Smith, we notice that after work you go straight to Moe's Bar 3 blocks away and stay for an average of 2 hours. We don't think this is appropriate behavior for a member of our firm."

New Guy

Jul 21, 2003, 03:30 PM

One part of my wife's job is running a summer camp for the town we live in. I could see it being very useful for keeping track of children while under her supervision. She also takes the kids, 50-100 at a time, on field trips to the zoo etc. I could see theme parks and zoos renting these out to such groups. It would prevent having to try and find children who leave the group or who can't make it back to the meeting place at the right time.

How many times have you heard "lost child" pages at Great Adventure?

Just my 2 bytes.

Craig

Makosuke

Jul 21, 2003, 04:05 PM

I see lots of useful things to do with this, none of which involve privacy issues--finding stuff around the house (if the tags are cheap enough), keeping track of school-owned equipment on a campus ("Where is that multimeter, anyway... oh, Room 252."), animal tracking, and so on.

The problem is, like an above poster said, the eventual potential for abuse is massive and frightening.

Let's say it takes off, and after the first "Amber" is brought home by a tag everybody runs out and gets their kids subdermally tagged, and the proliferation of base stations make the tracking range near-ubiquitous. Add to that things like tags in keys, jackets, and wallets, and eventually even if you don't have one implanted you're still carrying at least a couple around with you wherever you go.

Then Ashcroft, or some government agency ten years from now, decides that they'd like to start keeping an eye on people... bingo, the network is already established, and they don't even have to mark everyone with the number 666 (or, for those less religiously inclined, Big Brother's wet dream come true--monitoring without the vidscreen). You'd never even know when they started.

Of course, the technology exists and will only get better, cheaper, and smaller, so it's only a matter of time before it's essentially unavoidable if someone wants to abuse it, even if people don't take a liking to it. The only issue is how ready everyone is to deal with the implications.

IJ Reilly

Jul 21, 2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by theFly
It will be interesting to see if the system can handle physical horizontal space (ie knowing the difference between rooms) and vertical space (knowing the difference between floors).

A GPS signal can resolve horizontal space quite well (±3m without any post-processing), but is not as accurate in vertical space. Measuring vertical space (altitude) with GPS has the additional complication of dealing with the different Earth models used for things like terrestrial mapping.

sabbath999

Jul 21, 2003, 04:30 PM

I live in a rural area, and on farms and ranches this thing could be a godsend. Tracking animals is a pain in the rear, and being able to sort and track would be a great asset.

Also, think about what you could do this tracking and studying wildlife. The conservation aspects are fantastic.

Mudbug

Jul 21, 2003, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Flowbee
More like: "Mr. Smith, we notice that you've been using the bathroom an average of 6 times daily. We feel this is excessive."

Or

"Mr. Smith, we notice that after work you go straight to Moe's Bar 3 blocks away and stay for an average of 2 hours. We don't think this is appropriate behavior for a member of our firm."

I think this has hit the privacy issue square on the head. It's not just that whoever the administrator of the system knows that you're in the building, but that they know where you are and should be able to track your time in places without too much effort. Sounds a lot like Big Brother to me. That is to say that I think Woz has probably thought through some of these concerns and is probably prepared to defend against them if they come up. Otherwise, I don't see development of this taking as long as it has.

As for the verticle space issue, I think that could be solved in a multi-floor building by having base stations on each floor, and having the station with the strongest signal send it's information as the commanded floor.

(OT) Post #300... well on my way...

Jon the Heretic

Jul 21, 2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Flowbee
How would this foil a car thief? The way I understand it, if there's a tag in your car, you would get a page letting you know your car is leaving the parking lot.

This requires a little imagination.

Example: A tagged car is essentially "bugged", meaning intermittently it will show up as it passes other base stations. This information could be very useful in forensics. To be useful, you have to assume the tag is not removed from the car. As base stations' coverage expands, do does the information gathered about the stolen property.

You might even be able to project a path to the chopshop where the car was broken up for parts just 1 hour after being stolen :)

The uses are quite large, but depend a great deal on the product being successful enough to have wide coverage area. A zero imagination mentality would mark the telegraph, telephone, satellite, cell phones, radio and TV as abject failures due to the inability to project beyond the notion coverage was almost nonexistent for these products when was first introduced.

Flowbee

Jul 21, 2003, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by Jon the Heretic
This requires a little imagination.

Very little imagination... the product you describe already exists. It's called LoJack:
http://www.lojack.com/foryou/early_warning.htm

The fact is, Woz's new product doesn't seem to solve any problems that aren't addressed by current technology... and doesn't seem to address privacy issues connected with its "imaginative" uses.

I hope he's got something up his sleeve, otherwise this just seems destined to flop.

Les Kern

Jul 21, 2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Flowbee
"Mr. Smith, we notice that after work you go straight to Moe's Bar 3 blocks away and stay for an average of 2 hours. We don't think this is appropriate behavior for a member of our firm."

EXACTLY!
"We'll be glad to hire you, you just have to agree to carry this Palm IX with our tracking device... you know, so we can contact you easily."
(Later...."Upload: emloyeehistory.pdf to DOJ.gov, FBI.gov, CIA.gov)
Little steps........

jaedreth

Jul 21, 2003, 06:42 PM

Sure, Woz isn't doing anything new.

But can he do it *cheaper* than anyone else?

Can he do it *less invasively* than anyone else?

The answer to these two questions will determine how well his products and services sell.

Jaedreth

Wry Cooter

Jul 21, 2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Freg3000
A 1 to 2 mile radius is not that big. you would need a lot of base stations installed first before this might catch on. But once you get past that, there were a lot of things this is good for. I mean, how many things do you lose all the time? You keys, wallet, cell phone? Or how about more important things, like notebooks and children? Not groundbreaking in my book, but cool nonetheless.

I really don't think the resolution is good enough. You are probably dealing with football sized nuggets of space, if it is typical civilian GPS and there is no additional triangulation going on, If its your wallet, you know it is probably in your junky house somewhere, Hidden deep within one of those chunks of space it has never left. Nothing to track. Not a lot of help in finding.

If it is your dog... good luck... just because you know its location within a football field area of space doesn't mean you are going to be able to find it, although it will keep you in the right area, for its collar at least (these look to big to be implant chips).

About all it could be good for is popping on someones car, and seeing where they hang out. Privacy violation.

ozubahn

Jul 21, 2003, 09:09 PM

People seem to be worried about the range, but 1-2 miles is pretty significant. If that's real, then a single base station could cover up to about 12.4 square miles. If you assume only a 1 mile range, you could cover 100% of the US land mass (even the parts where nobody lives) with fewer than two million base stations. Not so bad. Try doing that with 802.11.

websterphreaky

Jul 21, 2003, 10:06 PM

Wozniak has become a crack-pot and I am seriously concerned about his mental state. Naming his company WOZ "Wheels of Zeus"? Sounds narcissistic to me.

Everytime I've heard him talk on TV (like TechTV) or at a convention, all he can do is ramble on about Apple 1975, pranks and worthless garbage. Jeez us!, the man wears a 1GB thumb drive around his neck! How hard DID he land on his head in that private plane crash 25 years ago?

ozubahn

Jul 21, 2003, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by websterphreaky
Jeez us!, the man wears a 1GB thumb drive around his neck!

I don't understand how this could possibly reflect badly on him. Are you accusing him of being a geek? :)

Jon the Heretic

Jul 22, 2003, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Flowbee
Very little imagination... the product you describe already exists. It's called LoJack:
http://www.lojack.com/foryou/early_warning.htm

How curious. You said you didn't see how this technology could be used to foil car theft, and now you acknowledge it requires "very" little imagination (I toyed with adding "very" myself but felt it to be a very pointless and very useless addition to a very clearly expressed idea. Very well then!)

Pete_Hoover

Jul 22, 2003, 07:21 PM

It has been done before. I was hoping woz would come up with something completely innovative. Hey, maybe it will surprise all of us, and it will not only track dogs, but also turn them into aibo's!!!

Wry Cooter

Jul 22, 2003, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Pete_Hoover
It has been done before. I was hoping woz would come up with something completely innovative. Hey, maybe it will surprise all of us, and it will not only track dogs, but also turn them into aibo's!!!

Well, it has been done before, but if you wanted to use such a system, it would cost you hundreds of dollars, with a 'bug' about the size of a pack of cigarettes, costing two or three bills, and a receiver costing at least as much if not two or three times the cost.

This gets it down to the size of a silver dollar or so, and I imagine the receiver will be about the cost of an airport base station or less. It would be nicer if the receiver was the size of a watch or cell phone.

Of course we have next to no details... we had more info about that PDA he was behind, and the timing on that was such that by the time I saw them in stores, who cares? That was too crowded a niche for non-detailed teaser press 3 months earlier to make any difference.

Its' what we don't know that will kill it. How much? When? How Big? What resolution? You know, I don't see much use for something that might be good for one or two miles range with football field sized resolution (earlier post; how do you figure a one mile range equal to 12 square miles?), you get a map that is maye 25 by 25 or maybe 32 by 32 pixels, with each pixel equalling an acre you still have to search within.