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triton
Jul 21, 2003, 02:46 PM
I've been through two art schools now, and have noticed something rather odd. Why are apple cinema displays used instead of CRT's? Are CRT's not better for color correction work?

(This question may seem redundant in light of previous topics, but I haven't been to an institution yet that has opted to use CRT's with their g4's.)

LimeLite
Jul 21, 2003, 03:27 PM
LCD's are by far better for your eyes, especially for extended viewing. As for color, I don't have a for sure answer, but I think that LCD's might be better than CRT's overall.

vanillamike
Jul 21, 2003, 04:20 PM
I think you are right about LCDs being better on the eyes, but I am pretty certain that CRTs are better for colour matching, from graphic design perspective (ie print oriented work).

This is why I bought an eMac over an iMac even though I thought the iMac looked so much cooler. However, with the stand my eMac aint so bad :)

Mike

triton
Jul 21, 2003, 04:42 PM
Hmmm. But is there not a great deal of color correction in graphic design? It just doesn't make sense to me why they would give students LCD's. Sure it's easier on your eyes. But in the end, you might spend two times as long trying to get around the LCD shortcomings, rather than using it to your advantage.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

I sometimes wish I understood who made the decisions at these institutions.:confused:

Laslo Panaflex
Jul 21, 2003, 04:42 PM
I like CRTs better personally because you can up the resolution really high, which gives you much more desktop space. Nothing beats my 2 sony 21ich CRTS when it comes to desktop space, the only downside, no 16:1 aspect ratio, oh well, maybe I will trade these in when new apple cimema displays if they ever release ones that match my 2gig G5. (hurry up and get here already!)

Peas.

AngryAngel
Jul 21, 2003, 04:51 PM
16:1 ratio! Wow- that could be a 360 monitor.

cc bcc
Jul 21, 2003, 04:56 PM
I think the colors on my 20" cinema display are absolutely amazing.
Apple has this to say about them:

Apple displays are part of the ICS, Inc., Remote Director 2.0 product which is the first display based soft proofing sytem certified by the independent SWOP organization. Bottom line: You can confidently use this display in your color-critical applications.

triton
Jul 21, 2003, 04:58 PM
Where did you read this CC BCC?

Wes
Jul 21, 2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by triton
Where did you read this CC BCC?

http://www.apple.com/displays/acd23/

To the left of the SWOP logo.

FuzzyBallz
Jul 21, 2003, 10:24 PM
Well, I can tell you my 20" Cinema Display has more accurate color than the 17" Panasonic CRT next to it.

cc bcc
Jul 22, 2003, 05:13 AM
There is more info here: Tech overview (http://a736.g.akamai.net/7/736/51/baab43b54c8e2f/www.apple.com/displays/pdf/L26122A_Displays_TO.pdf)

It's a PDF file, 650KB

Apple claims their TFT's to be much better than CRT's, but you should also read some impartial reviews. Try Google (http://www.google.com/search?q=cinema+display+apple+review&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8).

Likvid
Jul 22, 2003, 06:17 AM
Why don't Apple post the "response time" of their displays?

I've gone thru all their documents and all they are saying is how nice the display is and how thin it is, bla bla bla....

It's the most important performance indication of a flat panel.

Wouldn't surprise me if it's 50ms, and that's really bad......

Why can't Apple ever tell the truth about their specs instead of hiding it?

All they talk about is their design and how great that is.

For a eventual switcher i want the truth, in the PC world i get the truth, no need to hide the specs for customers.

Wes
Jul 22, 2003, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by Likvid
Why don't Apple post the "response time" of their displays?

I've gone thru all their documents and all they are saying is how nice the display is and how thin it is, bla bla bla....

It's the most important performance indication of a flat panel.

Wouldn't surprise me if it's 50ms, and that's really bad......

Why can't Apple ever tell the truth about their specs instead of hiding it?

All they talk about is their design and how great that is.

For a eventual switcher i want the truth, in the PC world i get the truth, no need to hide the specs for customers.

Well Formac has the dirt on the 20 inch

http://www.formac.com/p_bin/?cid=solutions_displays_gallery2010_compare

40 Ms

EDIT: Actually they have comparisons for 20+ Apple screens, they are ALL 40 Ms.

iGav
Jul 22, 2003, 06:25 AM
The colour point is moot, you can set a LCD to be spot on with colour, the same way you have to with a CRT.

It takes alittle bit of time, but once done it's the whizz biz!!

People seem to think that CRT's are automatically better than LCD's for colour work, seemingly not knowing that they too require callibrating of the box.

Institutions are likely using CRT's for economic reasons and that's pretty much it...

zim
Jul 22, 2003, 07:46 AM
I personally prefer LCD screens vs the CRT, which use to give me headaches. At the university where I teach, we switched over to LCD monitors from my perspective, there are two obvious benefits.

1. space, LCD monitors open up the room.
2. noise reduction, no more high pitched noise.
3. I know, I said two benefits... have you ever seen a lab full of LCD monitors? They just look cool, so modern.

We have had no issues, color is beautiful on them, although there are some older "designers" there that argue in favor of CRTs. The obvious reply is that her is no one there to calibrate the monitors and I can remember when we had the CRT displays and you could move form one computer to another and get a completely different spectrum of colors. At least now with the LCDs and OS X there is a sense of sameness throughout the lab of 55+ macs. Oh, and this is a design program.

jtown
Jul 22, 2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by iGAV
The colour point is moot, you can set a LCD to be spot on with colour, the same way you have to with a CRT.

It takes alittle bit of time, but once done it's the whizz biz!!

People seem to think that CRT's are automatically better than LCD's for colour work, seemingly not knowing that they too require callibrating of the box.

Institutions are likely using CRT's for economic reasons and that's pretty much it...

It's not an issue of being able to calibrate the display. It's the fact that the calibration is only accurate for a very small viewing angle. On most LCDs I've seen, the perceived color of a solid screen (say edge-to-edge blue) varies just looking between the top and bottom of the screen. Not because the display is inconsistant but because of the way the light is polarized.

If you're looking at part of the screen at 0 degrees and another part at 15-20 degrees, you will perceive different colors in the two parts of the screen, even if the display itself is consitant. Makes no difference on a CRT but it does on an LCD. That's why many people believe that CRTs are better for color work. I agree with them 100%.

DrGonzo
Jul 22, 2003, 12:20 PM
jtown said it. read that post! While LCDS are getting better, most proofing/design computers in shops use CRT

jxyama
Jul 22, 2003, 03:22 PM
one of the biggest advantage of CRT in color is the fact CRTs can more accurately produce black. CRT screen is black by default and color is actively created. LCD screen is white by default and color is passively created by blocking the white...

MacMaelstrom
Jul 24, 2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by zim
.
2. noise reduction, no more high pitched noise.


Uhm, unless you're using pre-80's screens CRTs don't do that anymore.

zim
Jul 24, 2003, 08:27 AM
Sure they do, every been in a room with 21 CRT monitors all on at the same time? There is definitely noise, not as much as say with the older models but there is a definite high frequency level of noise. Most of the iMacs, we do not have iMacs in the lab, that I have encountered, CRT models, do make some noise as well, although not nearly as loud as older CRT monitors.

DavidFDM
Jul 24, 2003, 09:07 AM
CRTs also generate a tremendous amount of heat. I used to have a dual 21"/19" CRT set-up and my studio was an oven. Now, with dual 17" LCDs, it is much cooler.

Regarding color correction, it is best left to professionals in a closed environment. Quality printers calibrate their devices to each other - scanners, proofers, presses, etc. The scans they generate will be hyper-accurate in their environment. Take them out of that environment and you will take a quality hit. Though probably not too big of one for there are standards but each shop has its own color expert and they introduce their preferences into the process. Not necessarily bad but it happens.

When I worked in pre-press, we had many clients who did their own scans to save money. First their scans were weak for they had no real depth - the density rating of a scanner. Second, they looked awful because they couldn't generate an accurate color proof with their little Epson printer thus they didn't know what the problems in their images were until the pre-press house made film and a proof. The clients simply believed what their monitors told them visually as opposed to what Photoshop told them numerically.

- David

MacMaelstrom
Jul 24, 2003, 09:32 AM
At my school we have a lab of 100 CRT iMacs. 50 are the slotloading with the metal panel inside that covers the CRT Assembly, orange and lime colored. The other 50 are the slotloading DV iMacs. They're all on at the same time. Nothing. No sound at all. Except for keyboards and people whispering to each other. In the other lab w/ 25 DV CRT iMacs there's a high pitched noise, but that's the old Apple Laser Printer there. (If you turn it off it stops) they're all off of 120 V in the US. 220 V Models may be different. Also I have a 1990s Quadra, and it's monitor is silent, along with my Compaq FS940. The only monitor I've ever seen that did this noise was and is my Apple IIe display, and even it doesn't do it when you turn the II on. it just does it when there's no input. I think what it is is the monitor syncing at a very low or high frequency. Or in my IIe's case the vhold jumping very quickly until I turn the base unit on. Besides all this, the old CRT AppleStudio displays were just plain cool. They looked big and powerful... And the Apple logos on the Yosimite ones were cool too.

zim
Jul 24, 2003, 09:47 AM
I don't want everyone to think that I am saying that it was LOUD noise, just a high frequency noise, barley detectable, but there is none with the LCD. I would also add that the CRTs do output a lot more heat and this is something that has been noticed, a droop in electrical heat. We also have noise from the G4 towers. The acoustics of the Lab do not help either, the rooms were never intended for a lab setting.

My home imac, CRT model, does make noise, sort of a high frequency humm... could also be the computer, hard to tell.

daveg5
Jul 24, 2003, 11:24 AM
virtually all review sites agree that crts are better for color work, better uniform color across the whole screen, no dead pixel, clear at all resolutions, screen protected by glas,s longer warranty, great fromall angles top to bottom side to side, faster refresh rates. sony has just introduced the artisen line and theres lacie hooded serires, much cheaper then lcd, better game play and dvd play no ghost or trails, that said lcd are very very very close some are 16ms and lower for action motion. many are approaching crt resolution of 2046*1548 and above although still much higher then your typical $400 22" crt (20" viewable), use less power, take up less desk space, look better, play games amd dvds for the most part just as well at the native resolution and most importrantly are easy on the eyes, less radiation for extended use.
i am lucky to have a 21 trinitron which is 3 years old and going strong, my next monitor will be an lcd, for a 2 monitor setup.a 20" will cost about 3 times more i know, but my eyes need a break from time to time from the radiation of a crt. i just wish they could solve my two pet peves with lcds, dead pixel , i would be furious with even one after $1200. and clarity at more then one resolution, i use multiple res daily for games and what not, not to get the best clarity i must stay at native or look at black bars not a good site. in time i guess.

maxvamp
Jul 24, 2003, 12:30 PM
2. noise reduction, no more high pitched noise.


The high pitched noise you may hear from a TV is due to the Horizontal scanning frequency of 15.75 KHz, which when passed through the yoke ( the copper coil on the back of all CRT display divices ) is audible to most people under thirty, and some over. The reason is that the human ear can hear frequencies from 20 Hz to 20 KHz.

Now, when computers got away from 640x480 INTERLACED, the upped the frequency to 31.5 KHz. The yokes still produce a sound, but unless you are a dog, there is no way you can hear this frequency. At best, you might hear a harmonic of this, but I have yet to see it.

The newest of monitors display much higher than 640X480, which translates to the Horizontal Freq. being upwards of 60 -100KHz.

In short, if you are watching an old RCA or GE TV, and you have excellent hearing, then the high pitch would probably bother you.

Max

maxvamp
Jul 24, 2003, 12:37 PM
One last thing....

The eye strain and the feeling of tiredness, and / or headache is due to the Verticle freq. The slower it is, the more it zaps you.

There was an interesting article in Scientific America about 5 years ago on this.

In short ( again ). Turn your Verticle Refresh freq. up as high as your monitor will allow to reduce the ( somewhat permanent ) damage from eyestrain, and other symptoms described here. I keep mine at 100Hz

Max

MacMaelstrom
Jul 25, 2003, 10:16 AM
Wonderful maxvamp. That's the best definition of the CRT noise I've ever heard. :) :)

Just to add to it... Interlaced: It's a really terribile resolution where your monitor is basicly like a TV. It refreshes every even line, then every odd line. It really hurts your eyes.

FYI: I sware my CRT is silent... I'm running 1280*1024 and the Horizontal refresh rate is 91.1 KHz V is 85 Hz.

Now... If I use the same res, but down the V to 60 Hz, the H drops to 63.9 KHz

edit: oh yes... it's still silent at the 63.9 KHz

daveg5
Jul 25, 2003, 11:35 AM
when i run my 21" trinitron , calibrated using super cal at 640x480 at 160refresh at1280*1024 at 120 refresh or 1600 at 100refresh it is so rock solid you would think it was an apple cinema lcd. even 2000+-1500+ at 85 refresh is good, its at under 85 refresh that the headaches come in to play.
however i have heard crts give off more radiation then lcd's thats why i wont one with no dead pixels for my next monitor
i was always wonder how does the 60refresh on Lcds come in to play
and if i play quake unreal at an average of 100 frames per second on say a crt set at 100 refresh and a crt set at 60 refresh will there be any noticable diff.
in shrt does the refresh rate play a role in fps games?, fps?

daveg5
Jul 25, 2003, 11:39 AM
i meant lcd at 60 refresh compared to a crt at 100 refresh plying the same game at 100 fps

MacMaelstrom
Jul 25, 2003, 12:56 PM
Refresh rate really doesn't matter in LCDs. Also, the 60 isn't 60/second, it's 60 Hz... Which is going to be 60/second.... nevermind...

bennetsaysargh
Jul 25, 2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by zim
Sure they do, every been in a room with 21 CRT monitors all on at the same time? There is definitely noise, not as much as say with the older models but there is a definite high frequency level of noise. Most of the iMacs, we do not have iMacs in the lab, that I have encountered, CRT models, do make some noise as well, although not nearly as loud as older CRT monitors.

i sit down in front of my CRT iMac every day, and the noise is almost definatly the hard drive. when the hard drive spins down, it stops.
correct me if i'm wrong.

MacMaelstrom
Jul 25, 2003, 09:40 PM
I'm defidently with you. I've never seen a post 90's monitor doing that. Probably even post-85

Phil Of Mac
Jul 26, 2003, 01:33 AM
I can hear the monitor of my iMac DV. It's not the hard drive, I just put my computer to sleep and I could hear the monitor before the hard drive spun up.

It is very quiet though. I had to put my ear to the screen.

And the 60 Hz issue is because AC electricity alternates at 60 Hz, so if your electric lights are on, and they flicker in rhythm with your monitor, you go insane.

bennetsaysargh
Jul 26, 2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I can hear the monitor of my iMac DV. It's not the hard drive, I just put my computer to sleep and I could hear the monitor before the hard drive spun up.

It is very quiet though. I had to put my ear to the screen.

And the 60 Hz issue is because AC electricity alternates at 60 Hz, so if your electric lights are on, and they flicker in rhythm with your monitor, you go insane.

well, now i know what that sound definatly is.
thanks:)

daveg5
Jul 26, 2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
well, now i know what that sound definatly is.
thanks:)
could it just be the heat rising thru that design, airpot card, or bad speaker, crossed wires or hot plastic