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rdowns
Jul 13, 2007, 05:22 AM
Link (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireless/phones/2007-07-12-iphone_N.htm)

Early iPhone owners are overwhelmingly happy with their devices, a survey out Friday says, and Apple (AAPL) and AT&T (T) are luring customers from rivals as a result.

In one of the first such studies, 90% of 200 owners said they were "extremely" or "very" satisfied with their phone. And 85% said they are "extremely" or "very" likely to recommend the device to others, says the online survey conducted and paid for by market researcher Interpret of Santa Monica, Calif. The firm surveyed 1,000 cellphone users July 6-10.

I found this chart interesting. Verizon seems to be the most hurt; wonder if passing on the deal still seems like the right decision.



EricNau
Jul 13, 2007, 05:26 AM
I found this chart interesting. Verizon seems to be the most hurt; wonder if passing on the deal still seems like the right decision.
Well, of course, they had the most people to loose.

Sobe
Jul 13, 2007, 07:14 AM
I think they'll regret it, yes.

The bottom line is that people switched almost entirely due to the iPhone, not anything that AT&T did.

Now all AT&T has to do is not totally suck and they have a huge user base til 2012 simply due to loyalty to Apple, not AT&T.

MacRumors
Jul 13, 2007, 07:53 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

USA Today reports (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireless/phones/2007-07-12-iphone_N.htm#uslPageReturn) that early iPhone adopters are overwhelmingly happy with their iPhones.
In one of the first such studies, 90% of 200 owners said they were "extremely" or "very" satisfied with their phone. And 85% said they are "extremely" or "very" likely to recommend the device to others, says the online survey conducted and paid for by market researcher Interpret of Santa Monica, Calif. The firm surveyed 1,000 cellphone users July 6-10.
Of course, early adopters are a special population and may not reflect the satisfaction of later consumers as a whole. Some other interesting statistics that came from the studies are included:

• 51% of buyers were switching to AT&T from another carrier
• 35% of carrier switchers paid an early termination fee (avg $167) to switch
• 3 of 10 were first-time Apple customers.
• for 4 of 10, the iPhone was their first iPod
• New iPhone owners expected to pay about $35 more a month than their previous cellphone.

Meanwhile, Forbes publishes (http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2007/07/13/afx3910584.html) a report that Telefonica SA's O2 mobile phone unit has reached an agreement to become the exclusive network partner for Apple's iPhone in the UK. Sales are reported to begin "shortly". Vodafone had reportedly been a front runner (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/07/06/apples-demands-of-vodafone/) in negotiations but in the end felt that the commercial terms were not viable.

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2007/07/13/iphone-buyer-statistics-o2-confirmed-for-uk/)

kcroy
Jul 13, 2007, 07:56 AM
That's me, Kelly Croy, MacRumors member, in the USA Today article. :cool:

Craigy
Jul 13, 2007, 08:01 AM
That's me, Kelly Croy, MacRumors member, in the USA Today article. :cool:
Congrats!

In the UK here - was thinking of getting one for my wife then a 2nd gen for me early next year.

Happy for you and your new iPhone!

If they can get Gmail and the Google calendar to work offline and sync I'm sold.. On reason I hold onto my HTC smartphone is so that I can run TomTom Sat Nav - I'm assuming that the 2nd gen will eith have it built in or could pair with a bluetooth GPS.

wavelayer
Jul 13, 2007, 08:02 AM
Nice to hear positive feedback about the iphone. I'm waiting for the next rev to get one.

Devil's Refugee
Jul 13, 2007, 08:02 AM
Not O2....oh well, kicks off another load of O2 v Vodafone v Orange posts I guess :rolleyes:

eenu
Jul 13, 2007, 08:06 AM
Congrats!

In the UK here - was thinking of getting one for my wife then a 2nd gen for me early next year.

Happy for you and your new iPhone!

If they can get Gmail and the Google calendar to work offline and sync I'm sold.. On reason I hold onto my HTC smartphone is so that I can run TomTom Sat Nav - I'm assuming that the 2nd gen will eith have it built in or could pair with a bluetooth GPS.

Heh let the wife test it out :p

I'm happy if it goes on O2 as i am on O2 and my contract is ready to renew in Sept

tjcampbell
Jul 13, 2007, 08:08 AM
I'm also on o2 so I'll be thrilled if this pans out. The only thing I'm worried about are the data costs. I currently have an xda orbit and I get killed on data fees every month and it's just email and the odd google.

p0intblank
Jul 13, 2007, 08:10 AM
51% of buyers switched to AT&T for the iPhone alone? Wow, that's great news! I really hope Verizon is kicking themselves. A half percentage of a whole... that's huge.

Glenny2lappies
Jul 13, 2007, 08:11 AM
O2, not the best choice for the UK. Vodafone have a much better network.

I guess they were the only company who would bend over far enough for big Jobs to do the business.

This choice will affect iPhone sales, says he who's now thinking twice about it. If it were Vodafone; no issues.

Ho hum.

I wonder if a 3G version is coming for Europe? Seems stupid to go back to slow networks now all the carriers have invested in 3G.

Glenny2lappies
Jul 13, 2007, 08:13 AM
I'm also on o2 so I'll be thrilled if this pans out. The only thing I'm worried about are the data costs. I currently have an xda orbit and I get killed on data fees every month and it's just email and the odd google.

I wouldn't hold your breath at the chances of O2 dropping their prices.

I'm sure O2 will see it as a way of increasing their revenues:-( Milk that cash cow.

Fabio_gsilva
Jul 13, 2007, 08:15 AM
Reading all this info about iPhone let my mouth watering... and I keep wondering if in a near-future moment Apple will release iPhone here... It would be great!!

Like they advertised the iMac back 1998, it woul be cool to read in the news:


"Diga Oi para o iMac" (say hi to...)

bignumbers
Jul 13, 2007, 08:16 AM
Wow. Apple must be happy, but AT&T must be breaking out the champagne. If there were 500,000 iPhones sold the first weekend (rough average of estimates), and half were new to AT&T, and the minimum monthly is $60...

That's a minimum of $15M per MONTH of new AT&T revenue. Just from the first weekend's sales. That's truly astounding.

I can't wait for Apple's 3Q results, to hear how many were actually sold. Probably another 10 days for that.

Hattig
Jul 13, 2007, 08:21 AM
At least it wasn't "No Customer Service" Orange. Nor "haha, no signal for you and look at our crappy-arse GPRS network and oh, we'll block emails you send from your phone" Vodafone. O2 aren't bad though, although their signal levels were pretty dire where I lived a couple of years back when I was last with them (couldn't use the phone inside the house). Guess that means no iPhone for me, but I wasn't likely to buy one anyway.

lazyrighteye
Jul 13, 2007, 08:22 AM
FWIW...
I switched to AT&T (from VZW), did not pay an early termination fee, been with Apple over 15 years, this marks my second iPod (also have a 1st gen iPod), monthly bill has gone down more than $20 (while experience/functionality has gone WAY up), I absolutely LOVE the device & have either demoed or recommended it to easily ~200 people (~1/2 of which were new to Apple).

Next.

gavd
Jul 13, 2007, 08:26 AM
I wouldn't hold your breath at the chances of O2 dropping their prices.

I'm sure O2 will see it as a way of increasing their revenues:-( Milk that cash cow.

Can't see Steve agreeing to go with O2 if they won't change them. That's going to put people off and reduce sales and that's not what Apple want. I guess they might not come down as much as people might like but I expect they'll have to do something.

alFR
Jul 13, 2007, 08:31 AM
I guess that means O2 will need to be spending some cash on network infrastructure then, seeing as they don't have an EDGE network right now.... Either that or 3G iPhone for us. Personally I'll believe either when I see the Apple press release and not before.

mrzippy
Jul 13, 2007, 08:36 AM
Well lets hope the European iPhone has 3G as GPRS data is slower than dial-up so it would sort of defeat the point of the iPhone, only Orange UK has a partial EDGE network and O2-UK does not even have a full 3G network.

JoJoCal19
Jul 13, 2007, 08:40 AM
Verizon has totally screwed themselves over this. If apple has sold 1million iPhones, which Im sure they have by now, that means roughly 250,000 have left Verizon assuming that 25% of the users have switched to AT&T for the iPhone from Verizon. I can only see the number of people eventually switching from Verizon to reach half a million if not eventually reaching the 1 million mark sometime mid to late next year. If I remember correctly, didnt Verizon end up edging AT&T for most number of users in America? Well I guess they went ahead and screwed that up....

Do you realize how many people would have went to Verizon from AT&T to get the iPhone? FAAAAR more than went from Verizon to AT&T thats for sure....

Lepton
Jul 13, 2007, 08:44 AM
I figured Apple wouldn't do Europe until they came out with a version 2 which would include 3G. But if they plan to sell in Europe very soon, that almost certainly means it will be the very same EDGE phone in the US. Say hello to EDGE, guys! :( With the seamless WiFi in there, it's tolerable..

gnasher729
Jul 13, 2007, 08:53 AM
51% of buyers switched to AT&T for the iPhone alone? Wow, that's great news! I really hope Verizon is kicking themselves. A half percentage of a whole... that's huge.

Those 51% are exactly why AT&T wanted the deal, _and_ they are the reason why it is an exclusive deal. AT&T doesn't care what phone you use. They care slightly that switching an AT&T customer to an iPhone will also switch them to a more expensive data plan. What they really, really care about are 600,000 or so customers already leaving Verizon and others and joining AT&T; that is where the money is. At 60 dollars per month and an estimated 600,000 switchers today, that is $864 million over two years, and more to come!

Matteh117
Jul 13, 2007, 08:54 AM
I've used O2 before and it's not exactly great in my opinion.

I'm currently on a Vodafone contract which -- as far as I'm aware -- has a much more reliable network.

Even if it IS O2, I'm sure I'd make the switch when my contract is done. If they choose EDGE over 3G it won't be much of a deal-breaker for me, but who has EDGE in UK? Eeek!

joe8232
Jul 13, 2007, 08:56 AM
I am really looking forward to the iPhone in the UK. T-mobile would have been the best network i would have thought due to the web 'n' walk packages - maybe o2 will come up with something similar? Either way my orange contract is up in August and I will be switching to o2!

Sobe
Jul 13, 2007, 09:00 AM
Verizon has totally screwed themselves over this. If apple has sold 1million iPhones, which Im sure they have by now, that means roughly 250,000 have left Verizon assuming that 25% of the users have switched to AT&T for the iPhone from Verizon. I can only see the number of people eventually switching from Verizon to reach half a million if not eventually reaching the 1 million mark sometime mid to late next year. If I remember correctly, didnt Verizon end up edging AT&T for most number of users in America? Well I guess they went ahead and screwed that up....

Do you realize how many people would have went to Verizon from AT&T to get the iPhone? FAAAAR more than went from Verizon to AT&T thats for sure....

yeah it is sort of unfortunate. I was perfectly happy with Verizon, except for the fact that they didn't have the hardware I wanted (iPhone).

I suppose in an ideal world, I would have an iPhone on a Verizon network, but (knock on wood) so far so good with AT&T.

Passante
Jul 13, 2007, 09:01 AM
WOW! That surprises me. I'm waiting until December when my contract expires (or MacWorld expo if a new revision has not been released) until I buy mine.

trevorlsciact
Jul 13, 2007, 09:03 AM
I just hope apple opens the iPhone up to 3rd party apps; the Macintosh sold very well initially too.....

mickeymikey
Jul 13, 2007, 09:10 AM
From my experience, the statement that iPhone purchasers over the past two weeks are "early adopters" is a stretch. I personally know nine people (including myself) who purchased an iPhone within the first week of availability, and I am the only consistent "early adopter".

devilot
Jul 13, 2007, 09:11 AM
Do you realize how many people would have went to Verizon from AT&T to get the iPhone? FAAAAR more than went from Verizon to AT&T thats for sure....I think I'd have to agree with that. While AT&T has very broad coverage, and yes, I'm sure Verizon doesn't have perfect coverage everywhere, I think it's safe to say that VZW's coverage is more highly regarded than AT&T's.

And while it's not guaranteed that I'll get an iPhone, I am switching from VZW (contract's up this August) to AT&T and the fact that the iPhone is tied down to them definitely didn't hurt my decision to switch carriers. :p

mrzippy
Jul 13, 2007, 09:14 AM
I figured Apple wouldn't do Europe until they came out with a version 2 which would include 3G. But if they plan to sell in Europe very soon, that almost certainly means it will be the very same EDGE phone in the US. Say hello to EDGE, guys! :( With the seamless WiFi in there, it's tolerable..

Only 1 UK network has EDGE (Orange), and at last press release this covered 1/8 of their network... They plan to add EDGE capacity in areas that will not have 3G coverage for a long time.

All other UK networks are GPRS + 3G with no EDGE support at all.

My network 3-UK has the best 3G coverage, and has a roaming GSM agreement for their non-3G areas which are getting less and less.

Sobe
Jul 13, 2007, 09:14 AM
I think I'd have to agree with that. While AT&T has very broad coverage, and yes, I'm sure Verizon doesn't have perfect coverage everywhere, I think it's safe to say that VZW's coverage is more highly regarded than AT&T's.

And while it's not guaranteed that I'll get an iPhone, I am switching from VZW (contract's up this August) to AT&T and the fact that the iPhone is tied down to them definitely didn't hurt my decision to switch carriers. :p

In my area (DC area) Verizon is even more desireable due to being able to use it in the metro. Basically if you live in this area and ever use the metro, Verizon is a no brainer.

So while AT&T might have fine coverage (so far so good), I have no doubt that Verizon's metro presence is hurting iPhone sales in this area. People won't want to give that up if they are used to it.

zedLondon
Jul 13, 2007, 09:17 AM
It's funny how different people's experieces vary. I switched to O2 from Vodafone about 2 years ago because vodafone's customer service was just shocking. They aslo had the idiotic thing where good plans were only available to new customers and if i wanted one i had to change my number

I walked accross the road to O2 and switched the same day. And since I've only got good things to say about their customer service. And no complaints about their network coverage. In my office and at home it's actually better than vodafone's.

But of course i realise that's only anecdotal

dscottbuch
Jul 13, 2007, 09:21 AM
From my experience, the statement that iPhone purchasers over the past two weeks are "early adopters" is a stretch. I personally know nine people (including myself) who purchased an iPhone within the first week of availability, and I am the only consistent "early adopter".

I agree and this is well supported by the poll. 30% were first time Apple customers - Not apple fanboi's. 40% this was their first iPod - not early adopters.

dscottbuch
Jul 13, 2007, 09:24 AM
It's funny how different people's experieces vary. I switched to O2 from Vodafone about 2 years ago because vodafone's customer service was just shocking. They aslo had the idiotic thing where good plans were only available to new customers and if i wanted one i had to change my number

I walked accross the road to O2 and switched the same day. And since I've only got good things to say about their customer service. And no complaints about their network coverage. In my office and at home it's actually better than vodafone's.

But of course i realise that's only anecdotal

It seems that this mirrors the US is some ways. Verizon has the best network/coverage no question (I my experience and I travel a lot) but the customer service sucks. This is why I switched previously to t-mobile. Now I'm ATT/Cingular. Both t-mobile and ATT have more coverage problems but I get help when I need it.

efengle
Jul 13, 2007, 09:36 AM
One thing that has been talked about a lot is the how much cheaper the plans for iPhone are compared to other providers. Once I saw the rate plans, I was hooked. For me and my fiancee, we had Verizon, 2 Blackberry 8703e and a Moto E815...great phones, but the BB8703e is not a mainstream consumer phone. It is strictly a business phone and does what it needs to for business purposes in a GREAT way. For the 2 of us...the 3rd phone was an added line so she could get a new BB. The monthly bill came to $211 (Family Share, 2 BB Unlimited data, insurance, 250 txt msg). For any of you who had the 8703e, this WAY TOO MUCH money for what you get, although you are getting 3G speeds and great call quality. Well needless to say, we have 2 iPhones now (8GB) and will pay about $100/mo. for 2.5G speeds and very similar signal strength (Washington-Philly corridor). It is not like you will rely on EDGE and Safari as your only browser, so we can accept the slower speeds. When all is said and done, over the next 2 years, we will save about $1300 by having ATT/iPhone vs. VzW/BB. This is including activation fees and 3 ETFs from VzW (only $160 each b/c of their new declining ETF rule).

As for the iPhone itself. I honestly think you cannot get any better than it. Although, I am already on my second iPhone...1st one had a dead pixel or dirt underneath the glass or a bubble in the touch material and glass. Any which way, it was annoying for a $600 device. Apple store Suburban Square in Ardmore, PA replaced it without any hesitation. New one works great, only problem is the battery charge indicator not showing 100%...software related.

alembic
Jul 13, 2007, 09:37 AM
We all know Steve Ballmer laughed at the iPhone when it was announced in January. Does anyone know if he's changed his tune since the launch? I haven't seen anything yet.

trevorlsciact
Jul 13, 2007, 09:40 AM
We all know Steve Ballmer laughed at the iPhone when it was announced in January. Does anyone know if he's changed his tune since the launch? I haven't seen anything yet.

I bet he imploded
:apple:

dizastor
Jul 13, 2007, 09:42 AM
I really hope Verizon is kicking themselves.

Verizon was very cocky going into the iphone's launch, thinking of it as just another phone. Then iDay came and they lost four times as many customers as they do on a normal day and started to panic. They are now scrambling for a response.

My cousin's uncle's brother work's for them... or something like that. ;)

Cabbit
Jul 13, 2007, 09:53 AM
Glad its going to be o2, i was hoping o2 or orange. Vodaphone have a horible logo, are english and put up they adverts with that idiot football player. 3 dosnt work anyware and t-mobile are expenicve.

Big-TDI-Guy
Jul 13, 2007, 09:58 AM
Never had any beef with Verizon coverage - that was the only thing holding me back.

Verizon selection of phones - is patheatic at best. The slowest carrier to "quality test" new phones, and by the time they're released, half of the features have been stripped out. Oh yes, and Verizon has some sick (#*#ing fetish with having all their phones painted silver. :mad:

Silver-Painted Plastic = (#*$

As for the iphone itself, love it, except my camera stinks. It blurrs like a SOB with ANY motion, and half of my pictures are "skewed" to one side. Rather annoying. Aside from that, happy.

Matteh117
Jul 13, 2007, 10:04 AM
It's funny how different people's experieces vary. I switched to O2 from Vodafone about 2 years ago because vodafone's customer service was just shocking. They aslo had the idiotic thing where good plans were only available to new customers and if i wanted one i had to change my number

I walked accross the road to O2 and switched the same day. And since I've only got good things to say about their customer service. And no complaints about their network coverage. In my office and at home it's actually better than vodafone's.

But of course i realise that's only anecdotal
Have to agree. It seems like everyone is having completely different experiences with all the network providers.. Any will do me! Just give us the iPhone!!

Yixian
Jul 13, 2007, 10:08 AM
Is it likely to be possible to upgrade to the iPhone if you are already on O2? My contract doesn't expire until March 08.

BKF
Jul 13, 2007, 10:19 AM
Great news. And I would think that early adopters would be as critical as anyone.

As for AT&T, I occasionally think about how the folks there take it as they keep hearing that the number 1 problem with the iPhone is... AT&T. I suppose the fact that 51% of iPhone users are new AT&T customers helps them get through the pain.

oscuh
Jul 13, 2007, 10:20 AM
It's good to see data like this. Only strengthens my resolve to get an iPhone when my current contract expires. I'd love to get one now, but throwing away $200 in early termination fees just doesn't make much sense to me ...

lazyrighteye
Jul 13, 2007, 10:39 AM
I figured Apple wouldn't do Europe until they came out with a version 2 which would include 3G. But if they plan to sell in Europe very soon, that almost certainly means it will be the very same EDGE phone in the US. Say hello to EDGE, guys! :( With the seamless WiFi in there, it's tolerable..

Having never used/seen 3G, but a 2-year Treo 650 user with VZW, EDE is not near as bad as I was expecting (based on pre-launch chatter in these forums). A complete non-issue for Mail & SMS. Safari page loads & youtube function fine, for my needs/expectations. And Maps is surprisingly effective (aka: completely useful).
For me, Safari's lack of Flash and youtube's largely un-H.264 content are my biggest "issues" (with concerns to media, or, things that would be effected by 3G). More free wifi hotspots will always be more than welcome. As you can imagine, when using wifi, the device smokes. And if 3G is as large a battery hog as some report, then I am fine with EDGE.

My subjective ¢2.


<edit>
Factor in my cell phone reception is better at my house than it was with VZW AND my monthly bill went down ~$20 while my functionality/experience went way up...
Yeah, pretty pleased.
</edit>

Mitch1984
Jul 13, 2007, 10:40 AM
51% of buyers switched to AT&T for the iPhone alone? Wow, that's great news! I really hope Verizon is kicking themselves. A half percentage of a whole... that's huge.

Verizo say they have something up their sleeve, probably a brown zune phone from toshiba, sorry I mean Microsoft.

arn
Jul 13, 2007, 10:44 AM
Having never used/seen 3G, but a 2-year Treo 650 user with VZW, EDE is not near as bad as I was expecting (based on pre-launch chatter in these forums



I switched from a Treo 700p with EVDO. And the browsing speed is probably comparable on the iPhone due to the better/faster page rendering. On the treo I would not try to browse full sites due to the time it took to render and use.

Beyond that, the browsing expereience is obviously much better on the iphone.

arn

dscottbuch
Jul 13, 2007, 10:47 AM
Having never used/seen 3G, but a 2-year Treo 650 user with VZW, EDE is not near as bad as I was expecting (based on pre-launch chatter in these forums). A complete non-issue for Mail & SMS. Safari page loads & youtube function fine, for my needs/expectations. And Maps is surprisingly effective (aka: completely useful).
For me, Safari's lack of Flash and youtube's largely un-H.264 content are my biggest "issues" (with concerns to media, or, things that would be effected by 3G). More free wifi hotspots will always be more than welcome. As you can imagine, when using wifi, the device smokes. And if 3G is as large a battery hog as some report, then I am fine with EDGE.

My subjective ¢2.


<edit>
Factor in my cell phone reception is better at my house than it was with VZW AND my monthly bill went down ~$20 while my functionality/experience went way up...
Yeah, pretty pleased.
</edit>

Exactly my experience. Edge has been a non issue for me.

Donnacha
Jul 13, 2007, 10:53 AM
Personally, the choice of carrier doesn't bother me that much because I know the whole point of Apple's tough demands has been to ensure a realistic, flat-rate pricing structure. O2 is fine as long as they leave behind their $2 per MB data fee!

Right now, there are only 2 things that, as a typical European customer, I'm holding out for before signing up relate to the iphone itself:

1. 3G (obviously).

2. Ability to send that 3G connectivity to my MBP via Bluetooth (not enabled on the US iphone, presumably because the AT&T network can't handle the extra burden that would create).


Anyone know of any reason why they wouldn't offer that, in particular the 2nd feature?

ajhill
Jul 13, 2007, 11:09 AM
The people around me in line on June 29th were definitely not Mac people, and not early adopters. The guy in front of me was buying 5! Not to resell, but one for him, one for his wife, and three for his kids! Lucky kids! He was using his old cell phone to coordinate with his wife to buy the phones (she had deployed to another Apple store in another part of the city). Dad bought two and his daughter bought one, with daddy's money of course.

The point being, that in my 1hour 15min wait in line we chatted. I can report that he wasn't a Mac fanatic. He wasn't even an iTunes user. He was asking me how the phone would work and what he had to do to activate it! Does this sound like an early adoptor?

People I show it to just love it. The screen is amazing. Perfectly readable even in bright sunlight, which just blew me away when I saw it outside for the first time. As a matter of fact I occasionally find myself having to turn down the screen brightness because its too bright.

No, Apple has a universal winner with the iPhone. Keyboard is not an issue. Edge is slow, but it's also cheap (which I like). I have been averaging a verified 180Kbps lately, which isn't bad.

Overall the design, elegance and ease of use is what is selling iPhones. That and about a million demos from those "early adopter"

Way to change the world (again) Apple, thanks!

defeated
Jul 13, 2007, 11:13 AM
Apple still faces challenges. The high cost of the two iPhone models — $499 and $599 — ranks as the No. 1 reason consumers interested in the device did not buy one, the survey says. Those consumers said they would pay an average of, at most, $180.
do they have a number of people who "wanted to, but eventually didn't buy one because of price"?

fingers
Jul 13, 2007, 11:14 AM
I will be very disapointed if 02 get the iPhone gig. My wife got an 02 phone a while back and it was cheaper calling the moon than giving the missus a call.
Maybe their rates have changed, but I will have trouble convincing my work to switch to 02. I have a feeling though, like the iPod, the carriers will be doing back flips.

One question I haven't been able to answer yet:
Is it possible to use Wi-Fi to make and revieve telephone calls using an iPhone?

rob@robburns.co
Jul 13, 2007, 11:24 AM
Can't see Steve agreeing to go with O2 if they won't change them. That's going to put people off and reduce sales and that's not what Apple want. I guess they might not come down as much as people might like but I expect they'll have to do something.

I imagine that a decently priced unlimited data plan is a big requirement for Apple in terms of negotiating with any provider. It might shake up parts of Europe, but I think that's what Apple would push for.

Avatar74
Jul 13, 2007, 11:25 AM
Verizon has totally screwed themselves over this. If apple has sold 1million iPhones, which Im sure they have by now, that means roughly 250,000 have left Verizon assuming that 25% of the users have switched to AT&T for the iPhone from Verizon. I can only see the number of people eventually switching from Verizon to reach half a million if not eventually reaching the 1 million mark sometime mid to late next year. If I remember correctly, didnt Verizon end up edging AT&T for most number of users in America? Well I guess they went ahead and screwed that up....

Do you realize how many people would have went to Verizon from AT&T to get the iPhone? FAAAAR more than went from Verizon to AT&T thats for sure....

However as a colleague of mine points out, Verizon has 60 million customers and gains nearly a million customers quarter over quarter... So the picture isn't grim for them just yet. It depends on how quickly their churn rate grows if the iPhone phenomena mushrooms like the iPod did.

But they definitely are keeping a very close eye on iPhone... I guarantee you that.

AmbitiousLemon
Jul 13, 2007, 11:31 AM
One question I haven't been able to answer yet:
Is it possible to use Wi-Fi to make and revieve telephone calls using an iPhone?

Reports (http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/skype/skype-on-iphone.asp) of a complicated work around to use Skype are coming out.

jrk07
Jul 13, 2007, 11:35 AM
I am really bummed still that Verizon didn't pick up the iPhone. From my experience, the majority of the people I know who use ATT/Cingular have very bad service (dropped calls, conversation goes in and out), while I have Verizon and have honestly had nothing but success and great reception during calls anywhere I would expect service.

I don't have any experience using EVDO or EDGE so I can't comment on the difference in speed there, but from what I've researched it seems like the iPhone would have benefited from EVDO over EDGE (even with the increased speeds).

I went to the Apple Store the other day and played a bit with the iPhone and it really blew me away with just how nice the interface is. The keyboard was fine, it actually didn't look as smudged up as I thought it would, and it was smaller than I thought it was. I really want this phone.....but I refuse to get service with ATT/Cingular because of my experiences.

No matter how nice the device is, at the end of the day it is still a phone that needs to be ready to receive and make calls when I need it to, and I have no confidence in ATT/Cingular to deliver.

borisnatasha
Jul 13, 2007, 11:40 AM
It's good to see data like this. Only strengthens my resolve to get an iPhone when my current contract expires. I'd love to get one now, but throwing away $200 in early termination fees just doesn't make much sense to me ...

i guess it really depends on which carrier you are with now. If you're with Sprint, they will "waive" the early termination fees if you complain alot. So, start calling up customer service right away.

http://www.gadgetell.com/2007/07/sprint-may-cancel-your-service-if-you-call-customer-service-to-often/

Signal Man
Jul 13, 2007, 11:51 AM
I called my service provider (Vodaphone) to cancel my contract with them , it seems I am not the only one. They tried to put me off the iphone by saying ipods were crap & that I would miss out on an upgrade . Who cares when u want an I phone .

cliffjumper68
Jul 13, 2007, 11:56 AM
Great news. And I would think that early adopters would be as critical as anyone.

As for AT&T, I occasionally think about how the folks there take it as they keep hearing that the number 1 problem with the iPhone is... AT&T. I suppose the fact that 51% of iPhone users are new AT&T customers helps them get through the pain.

I do wish that the iphone was available on a better (faster) carrier, but some is better than none. Perhaps Europe or Canada have a chance at a better carrier. For now I will keep hopping from one wi-fi network to the next to get good data services.

BKF
Jul 13, 2007, 11:58 AM
Quote: "Apple still faces challenges. The high cost of the two iPhone models — $499 and $599 — ranks as the No. 1 reason consumers interested in the device did not buy one, the survey says. Those consumers said they would pay an average of, at most, $180."

Challenges, ha!

Apple is getting $500 and $600 now from people who are able and willing to pay it. When Apple is good and ready (or when, eventually, the competition obliges them), then they'll lower the price and reach the next level, and so on, and so on. A la iPod.

ortuno2k
Jul 13, 2007, 11:58 AM
I suspected that a high percent of iPhone buyers were switching to AT&T from another carriers, and another large amount paid an early termination fee.
This is what I will be doing when the 2nd generation comes out - I'll cancel my contract with T-Mobile (1.5 years to go), pay cancellation fee and roll on with an iPhone!
Can't wait. :)

lazyrighteye
Jul 13, 2007, 12:01 PM
I switched from a Treo 700p with EVDO. And the browsing speed is probably comparable on the iPhone due to the better/faster page rendering. On the treo I would not try to browse full sites due to the time it took to render and use.

Beyond that, the browsing expereience is obviously much better on the iphone.

arn

Agreed.
Is that a byproduct of tight Safari code?

Thanks.

chromos
Jul 13, 2007, 12:13 PM
Those 51% are exactly why AT&T wanted the deal, _and_ they are the reason why it is an exclusive deal. AT&T doesn't care what phone you use. They care slightly that switching an AT&T customer to an iPhone will also switch them to a more expensive data plan. What they really, really care about are 600,000 or so customers already leaving Verizon and others and joining AT&T; that is where the money is. At 60 dollars per month and an estimated 600,000 switchers today, that is $864 million over two years, and more to come!

I slightly disagree: I think that AT&T does care what phone you are using, as long as that phone is from Apple. What AT&T needs right now is to regenerate its brand (after ditching Cingular), while going up against the Verizon juggernaut. How better to achieve that than to align itself with a company that embodies cool and hip, innovation, and attention to the consumers' needs?

[Edit] There have been rumors of revenue sharing of the monthly fees with Apple, so it might be that AT&T is losing a small amount for each new customer, compared to if the customer were using a non-Apple handset (after taking into consideration the lack of having to subsidize handsets in the iPhone case). However, as you point out, it's a new customer/revenue, swiped from a competitor. And, AT&T is riding Apple's mindshare coattails, so perhaps they thought it all financially worthwhile.

Random Ping
Jul 13, 2007, 12:22 PM
Is it possible to use Wi-Fi to make and revieve telephone calls using an iPhone?

Not yet; although, I would not be surprised to see a future software update that enables this. Clearly, integrating phones into WiFi service is the direction most advanced phones are taking. This would also be a very nice feature for those at our homes who have WiFi but have lousy cellphone reception.

JoJoCal19
Jul 13, 2007, 12:28 PM
However as a colleague of mine points out, Verizon has 60 million customers and gains nearly a million customers quarter over quarter... So the picture isn't grim for them just yet. It depends on how quickly their churn rate grows if the iPhone phenomena mushrooms like the iPod did.

But they definitely are keeping a very close eye on iPhone... I guarantee you that.

Thats true, its not hurting them YET.... but from what I can tell so far, word of mouth advertising is working wonders. Everytime I show people the iPhone they start seriously considering it and go to look into it further. Its like a snowball effect really. The momentum will stay strong and more and more people will switch.. and when you think the momentum is slowing Im sure Apple will pull an Ace out from their sleeve and release/do something to bring the momentum back.

But at the end of this year/early next year I plan on getting a Verizon phone and using their prepay. They changed it to where any phone can be pre pay and I will need a second phone that wont have coverage issues so I will definitely be getting a phone with them again.

lazyrighteye
Jul 13, 2007, 12:34 PM
I slightly disagree: I think that AT&T does care what phone you are using, as long as that phone is from Apple. What AT&T needs right now is to regenerate its brand (after ditching Cingular), while going up against the Verizon juggernaut. How better to achieve that than to align itself with a company that embodies cool and hip, innovation, and attention to the consumers' needs?

[Edit] There have been rumors of revenue sharing of the monthly fees with Apple, so it might be that AT&T is losing a small amount for each new customer, compared to if the customer were using a non-Apple handset (after taking into consideration the lack of having to subsidize handsets in the iPhone case). However, as you point out, it's a new customer/revenue, swiped from a competitor. And, AT&T is riding Apple's mindshare coattails, so perhaps they thought it all financially worthwhile.

This is bigger than "financially worthwhile." This will save/reinvent AT&T. And they damn well know it. Kudos to them for seeing the bigger picture - something that eludes most American corporations.

VZW's practices are short-sighted, nickle-and-dime, typical big corp crap. And they'll be paying the price for not only passing on the iPhone (morons - reminds me of when the Portland Trailblazers passed on Michael Jordan to select UK's big man, Sam Bowie. Sam who? Exactly.) but also for conducting business the way they do. They have been my least favorite carrier to date, by far.

As a small, yet important-to-me, example: take their online experience. Horrendous. Could never tell exactly how much minutes I had used, TXT sent/received, etc. AT&T has the most user friendly account presentation I have seen. As a huge example: they would auto enroll me in things like unlimited data plans (at $45 a pop!) that I did not sign up for. I only noticed 4 months later (so I'm slow...). To their "credit," they did eventually refund those fees (hundreds of dollars) - but those kind of tactics are the very things that made me all to happy to leave.

"Can you hear me now?"

gugy
Jul 13, 2007, 12:37 PM
that's good to hear!

I am about to drop my Verizon and switch to AT&T. I am just not 100% sure with AT&T reception is that great in San Diego. That's the only thing holding me back. Plus I would love the iPhone to have at least 16gig storage. 8gig won't cut.
Oh my, decision, decisions.

Random Ping
Jul 13, 2007, 12:38 PM
I just hope apple opens the iPhone up to 3rd party apps; the Macintosh sold very well initially too.....

If I recall correctly, after the initial hype, the Mac struggled and inventory piled up (which in part resulted in Steve Jobs' eventual ouster) until the third Mac model (the Mac Plus) came along with its whopping 1 MB of RAM. :).

The Newton also came out with a lot of hype too, but it also struggled soon after launch. (I've read several times that the last revision of the Newton was actually very nice, but by then its reputation combined with Apple's financial woes sealed its fate).

I think the iPhone is a little different in that, by and large, it is meeting its hype. It is not without its limitations (they keyboard and the EDGE network speeds being the most well known), but this time I think Apple delivered a product that pretty much works as advertised and the vast majority of people are very happy.

Still... I desperately want an SDK so I can develop software for the iPhone !!! :D

gugy
Jul 13, 2007, 12:46 PM
I am really bummed still that Verizon didn't pick up the iPhone. From my experience, the majority of the people I know who use ATT/Cingular have very bad service (dropped calls, conversation goes in and out), while I have Verizon and have honestly had nothing but success and great reception during calls anywhere I would expect service.

I really want this phone.....but I refuse to get service with ATT/Cingular because of my experiences.

No matter how nice the device is, at the end of the day it is still a phone that needs to be ready to receive and make calls when I need it to, and I have no confidence in ATT/Cingular to deliver.

I am in the same boat as you are.
I want the iPhone so badly. But I am not sure if I want to switch to AT&T.
I'll pull the trigger on the iPhone if by October Apple doesn't release the iPod 6g. So more wait!:mad:

defeated
Jul 13, 2007, 12:48 PM
Agreed.
Is that a byproduct of tight Safari code?

Thanks.

doubt it. more like the mechanism of page rendering, as well as the fact iPhone has a faster CPU inside.

I want the iPhone so badly. But I am not sure if I want to switch to AT&T.
go buy one, then hack it with DVD Jon's method.

timon
Jul 13, 2007, 12:50 PM
Now if Apple just added a car mount with a built in GPS receiver for say $199.99 complete with full traffic monitoring and maps through google maps think what a :cool: product that would be. You get in your car and pop you iPhone into the mount, in landscape mode, and off you go. Never ever need to worry about undating your maps since Google keeps them up to date. They can add an additional speaker and mike option for better hands free service. One minor problem is that they need to add voice dial.

Wow, Apple get going on this ASAP:D

xStep
Jul 13, 2007, 12:51 PM
The firm surveyed 1,000 cellphone users July 6-10.
That line suggests they found a random 1000 cellphone users and out of that group _some_ iPhones users. I wonder how many were iPhone users and how that really affects the survey stats.

EagerDragon
Jul 13, 2007, 12:58 PM
O2, not the best choice for the UK. Vodafone have a much better network.

I guess they were the only company who would bend over far enough for big Jobs to do the business.

This choice will affect iPhone sales, says he who's now thinking twice about it. If it were Vodafone; no issues.

Ho hum.

I wonder if a 3G version is coming for Europe? Seems stupid to go back to slow networks now all the carriers have invested in 3G.

#2's are more willing to bend since it provides them an oportunity to grow their customer base, maybe that's it.

donlphi
Jul 13, 2007, 01:04 PM
That's the only surprise on the article I see. I am actually paying about $100 a month less. I had a Sprint Family Flexible BS plan combined with an all you can eat data plan at it was costing me nearly $200 a month. I was only using, on average, 700 minutes, 30 text messages, and EV-DO data when I travelled.

Granted, EDGE is as slow as my great grandma trying to eat a dry turkey sandwich, but it is fine for checking my e-mail or macrumors. I have also noticed more and more airports are switching to free Wi-Fi or Small Fee Wi-Fi.

Really you shouldn't be browsing the internet while driving, but when I was riding as a passenger with a friend, I tried to look up directions while on the move, IMPOSSIBLE, and we were on a major Highway in the Seattle area. A little disappointing, but still worth the switch.

gugy
Jul 13, 2007, 01:04 PM
go buy one, then hack it with DVD Jon's method.

I would I do that? to have an iPhone without the phone? What's the purpose then? Better wait for the iPod 6g then.

rob@robburns.co
Jul 13, 2007, 01:10 PM
As a huge example: they would auto enroll me in things like unlimited data plans (at $45 a pop!) that I did not sign up for. I only noticed 4 months later (so I'm slow...). To their "credit," they did eventually refund those fees (hundreds of dollars) - but those kind of tactics are the very things that made me all to happy to leave.

This padding of a customer's service plan is a big part of AT&T's "business strategy". If you do business with AT&T, you have to keep a close eye on your monthly bill. If you go with an electronic bill only with auto bill pay, they will assume you're paying even less attention to what they tack on.

I've even heard stories where they've refused to remove these charges. I imagine if you're adamant enough about it, eventually you'll be able to escalate it to a level where someone will remove the charges, but don't let it go more than a month without checking your bill.

peters438
Jul 13, 2007, 01:17 PM
Glad its going to be o2, i was hoping o2 or orange. Vodaphone have a horible logo, are english and put up they adverts with that idiot football player. 3 dosnt work anyware and t-mobile are expenicve.

Hmm... never expected that to be a complaint... in the UK. ;)

cliffjumper68
Jul 13, 2007, 01:21 PM
This padding of a customer's service plan is a big part of AT&T's "business strategy". If you do business with AT&T, you have to keep a close eye on your monthly bill. If you go with an electronic bill only with auto bill pay, they will assume you're paying even less attention to what they tack on.

I've even heard stories where they've refused to remove these charges. I imagine if you're adamant enough about it, eventually you'll be able to escalate it to a level where someone will remove the charges, but don't let it go more than a month without checking your bill.

Half of the billing items are obscure and hard to know what you are really paying for. I wish cellular/ phone companies where required to include all the extra fee's/taxes/fines in their advertising. It would make consumer choices much easier to make.

Scottgfx
Jul 13, 2007, 01:26 PM
From my experience, the majority of the people I know who use ATT/Cingular have very bad service (dropped calls, conversation goes in and out)

Perhaps your experience was like mine. I had a AT&T phone before Cingular bought AT&T Wireless. It was an older TDMA standard phone. When I first got the phone, it worked great. Over a couple of years my reception kept getting worse and worse.

What was happening was a changeover from TDMA standard phones to GSM. I switched to a Moto RAZR around two years ago on Cingular and everything was fine.

I just sold the RAZR to a friend at work.

fingers
Jul 13, 2007, 01:26 PM
Reports (http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/skype/skype-on-iphone.asp) of a complicated work around to use Skype are coming out.
Thank you, I hope Apple can build this functionality in though. I suppose, the carrier wouldn't like it. But, if Apple don't, the competition will.

Not yet; although, I would not be surprised to see a future software update that enables this. Clearly, integrating phones into WiFi service is the direction most advanced phones are taking. This would also be a very nice feature for those at our homes who have WiFi but have lousy cellphone reception.
Thank you, Yes, exactly. My father has lousy cellphone reception. If he stands at an angle of exactly 37 degrees, on a sunny afternoon, near the back door, he might just get the call... lol

j_maddison
Jul 13, 2007, 01:29 PM
Is it likely to be possible to upgrade to the iPhone if you are already on O2? My contract doesn't expire until March 08.

If the handset is not subsidised ,like in the USA, then I don't see it being an issue. I'm sure you could buy the device at the Apple store and then just pop your o2 sim card into it, that is if o2 won't let you upgrade directly through them.

Jay

Hmm... never expected that to be a complaint... in the UK. ;)

He could be scotish, welsh, or northern irish :0)

milo
Jul 13, 2007, 01:33 PM
That's the only surprise on the article I see. I am actually paying about $100 a month less.

My guess is that the increase is due to many people switching to a call-only phone to one that includes data. Based on the other stats, it wouldn't be surprising if there are many customers for whom this is the first "data" phone they have ever owned. Not to mention that it is far more mainstream consumer friendly than other options.

So people are paying more, but only because they're getting a completely new feature they never had before.

bilbo--baggins
Jul 13, 2007, 01:36 PM
I called my service provider (Vodaphone) to cancel my contract with them , it seems I am not the only one. They tried to put me off the iphone by saying ipods were crap & that I would miss out on an upgrade . Who cares when u want an I phone .

Love it!

I'm with Vodafone at the moment (contract ends around now). I think we all must make sure we tell Vodafone that we are leaving them to get an iPhone just to rub it in...

50548
Jul 13, 2007, 01:46 PM
51% of buyers switched to AT&T for the iPhone alone? Wow, that's great news! I really hope Verizon is kicking themselves. A half percentage of a whole... that's huge.

That's not only huge; it's probably the HIGHEST percentage of positive feedback for any electronic device in history. And we don't even have to worry about Rev. 2 matters...the iPhone is just gonna get better and better, even if perfection is something impossible to achieve.

Apple has simply created THE BEST product ever in the mobile telephony industry...all competitors must be wetting their pants now...it's a CLEAR WINNER in any developed market on the planet.

I just wait for it to come to Switzerland now...bring it on, APPLE!

bilbo--baggins
Jul 13, 2007, 01:50 PM
That's not only huge; it's probably the HIGHEST percentage of positive feedback for any electronic device in history. And we don't even have to worry about Rev. 2 matters...the iPhone is just gonna get better and better, even if perfection is something impossible to achieve.

Apple has simply created THE BEST product ever in the mobile telephony industry...all competitors must be wetting their pants now...it's a CLEAR WINNER in any developed market on the planet.

I just wait for it to come to Switzerland now...bring it on, APPLE!

It will be great to see the iPhone being successfull over the longer term. There are many examples where the best product isn't always the most successful (take betamax versus VHS for example), so I hope the iPhone is both a great product and a successful product.

Edit: duh. I just remembered Windows VS Mac. Classic example of where the best product isn't the most successful (in terms of number of sales).

bryanf
Jul 13, 2007, 02:01 PM
I got an iPhone on the first weekend, and took it back yesterday. I liked most of the form, but function was a bit too lacking for me. The email was painful when dealing with a bunch of accounts (and messages), and at least once a day it showed me messages it claimed "had no content". The battery life was also inconsistent, and often would barely get me through the day. And the lack of a real third-party app capability meant that I had to just wait and hope that Apple would see fit to fill the remaining functionality gaps (like a real offline RSS reader). It was also quite annoying that it didn't work with just about every iPod accessory I had, from headphones to my car kit.

The AT&T service was okay around where I live and (usually) work, but it is virtually nonexistent at another office location I frequent. Every call I tried to make from a moving car (granted, only a handful) broke up or was dropped. The lack of tethering (and a data network fast enough to be worth tethering to) meant that I couldn't really give up my Sprint Treo. Sure, the browser on the Treo is lousy, but I can also hook it up to my MacBook and use a "real" browser (and keyboard), like I am right now.

I have been dying for an excuse to ditch my Treo, but the iPhone wasn't quite it. Sure, some of its glitches will be fixed with software updates. But I find it interesting that the three top complaints in that USA Today article (battery life, EDGE speed, and memory capacity) aren't things that can be fixed via software (well, except for those bugs in the battery functionality). I wonder how happy those people will be when the inevitable upgrade comes out, probably in less than two years. In the end, I'm hoping that Steve will just finally come out with a new widescreen/wireless/100GB iPod or mini MacBook.

But it sure was tempting to cancel the AT&T service and just keep that nice little gadget around... :)

lazyrighteye
Jul 13, 2007, 02:03 PM
that's good to hear!

I am about to drop my Verizon and switch to AT&T. I am just not 100% sure with AT&T reception is that great in San Diego. That's the only thing holding me back. Plus I would love the iPhone to have at least 16gig storage. 8gig won't cut.
Oh my, decision, decisions.

Can't speak on San Diego coverage, but I'm guessing we won't see 16GB until at least MWSF 08. Then, or sometime after I suspect we will also be seeing iPhone nanos. Blind guess.

That's the only surprise on the article I see. I am actually paying about $100 a month less. I had a Sprint Family Flexible BS plan combined with an all you can eat data plan at it was costing me nearly $200 a month. I was only using, on average, 700 minutes, 30 text messages, and EV-DO data when I travelled.

Granted, EDGE is as slow as my great grandma trying to eat a dry turkey sandwich, but it is fine for checking my e-mail or macrumors. I have also noticed more and more airports are switching to free Wi-Fi or Small Fee Wi-Fi.

Really you shouldn't be browsing the internet while driving, but when I was riding as a passenger with a friend, I tried to look up directions while on the move, IMPOSSIBLE, and we were on a major Highway in the Seattle area. A little disappointing, but still worth the switch.

I agree. Totally shocked by the "paying more with AT&T" claim.
Before the plans were announced, that was my main concern. And AT&T/Apple delivered, big time.
$60/mo is insane, considering the capabilities, IMO.
Only thing I changed was bumping my SMS to 1,500.
Otherwise, surprisingly golden.

This padding of a customer's service plan is a big part of AT&T's "business strategy". If you do business with AT&T, you have to keep a close eye on your monthly bill. If you go with an electronic bill only with auto bill pay, they will assume you're paying even less attention to what they tack on.

I've even heard stories where they've refused to remove these charges. I imagine if you're adamant enough about it, eventually you'll be able to escalate it to a level where someone will remove the charges, but don't let it go more than a month without checking your bill.

Thanks for the heads up.
I don't auto-pay anything, save school loans (what a gyp!).
I'll be keeping a close(r) eye on AT&T. ;)

manu chao
Jul 13, 2007, 02:23 PM
http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/skype/skype-on-iphone.asp
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2194109/skype-come-iphone

The way I see it, is that you use Safari on the iPhone to connect to a Server that acts as a gateway. That computer is actually making the Skype calls but 'forwarding' them via the internet to your iPhone.
Well, maybe. Somebody else please check the links to see if they confirm or contradict my interpretation.

eyebye
Jul 13, 2007, 02:32 PM
VZW's practices are short-sighted, nickle-and-dime, typical big corp crap. And they'll be paying the price for not only passing on the iPhone (morons - reminds me of when the Portland Trailblazers passed on Michael Jordan to select UK's big man, Sam Bowie. Sam who? Exactly.) but also for conducting business the way they do. They have been my least favorite carrier to date, by far.


I agree, Verizon is expensive and they nick their customers with extra fees every chance they get. I'm still a happy Verizon customer though. In the 4 years I've been with them I've had 2 dropped calls in the 10+ metro areas I've traveled between. Their network is tops and their price for service is worth every penny for those who depend on their phones.

dscottbuch
Jul 13, 2007, 02:37 PM
Can't speak on San Diego coverage, but I'm guessing we won't see 16GB until at least MWSF 08. Then, or sometime after I suspect we will also be seeing iPhone nanos. Blind guess.

I have mine in SD. SD ATT coverage is good. I've gotten edge speeds from 75 to 220 kbps and seem to average just below 200 so maps and youtube is great. I keep the real-time traffic available for the 5/805 mess when driving and its quite accurate.

WRT to memory I just have no problems wit 8GB given the ease of iTunes. I have 30 GB of music and 400 GB of video so no iPod is ever going to hold that. OTH I won't listen to more that a few GB of music or video on any one use of the iphone (couple of days) so I simple change the syncing play list and it updates while charging. For longer trips I have the tunes/videos I want either on my laptop of external mobile drive.

For me battery has been fantastic. If I use everything (WiFi safari, ipod, etc) i'm getting at least 6-7 hours.

QCassidy352
Jul 13, 2007, 03:02 PM
The bottom line is that people switched almost entirely due to the iPhone, not anything that AT&T did.

Now all AT&T has to do is not totally suck and they have a huge user base til 2012 simply due to loyalty to Apple, not AT&T.

That's me. I was a 4 year customer, relatively (though not completely) happy with Verizon. Definitely not unhappy enough to leave for AT&T... but I heard the iphone calling me. ;)

peters438
Jul 13, 2007, 03:07 PM
http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/skype/skype-on-iphone.asp
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2194109/skype-come-iphone

The way I see it, is that you use Safari on the iPhone to connect to a Server that acts as a gateway. That computer is actually making the Skype calls but 'forwarding' them via the internet to your iPhone.
Well, maybe. Somebody else please check the links to see if they confirm or contradict my interpretation.

What the linked articles describe doesn't seem possible right now:


From http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/skype/skype-on-iphone.asp

Essentially, the workaround is to install SoonR Talk, a AJAX-enabled application. SoonR’s AJAX-enabled interface is available now for any mobile phone that can run the Opera Mobile browser version 8.6 and above, including the Apple iPhone.

Unless Apple opened the iPhone to 3rd party developers when no one was looking today, there's no way it can run Opera Mobile.

From http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2194109/skype-come-iphone:
"Once you are logged in and connected, you can view your buddies using the Ajax client and then click on the buddy you want to talk to," said Keating.

"SoonR Talk will tell your PC to call your mobile phone using SkypeOut. Then SoonR Talk will instruct Skype to call your buddy over the Skype IP network, placing you in a conference."

As Keating points out, this is not end-to-end Skype because the PC has to use the PSTN to call the iPhone which will consume two SkypeOut credits to set up the conference call.

But this may still be cheaper than making calls direct from the iPhone using the AT&T mobile contract.

Well, no. It will be exactly the same price because you are making calls using the AT&T mobile contract. The only savings would come from international calls, since AT&T includes nationwide long distance in the calling plan. A mobile minute is a mobile minute whether you're calling next door or across the country.

milo
Jul 13, 2007, 03:28 PM
Well, no. It will be exactly the same price because you are making calls using the AT&T mobile contract. The only savings would come from international calls, since AT&T includes nationwide long distance in the calling plan. A mobile minute is a mobile minute whether you're calling next door or across the country.

If you're using skype, how does AT&T know you're making a call. Since it's just sending data, wouldn't that be covered under the unlimited data?

chromos
Jul 13, 2007, 03:29 PM
This padding of a customer's service plan is a big part of AT&T's "business strategy". If you do business with AT&T, you have to keep a close eye on your monthly bill. If you go with an electronic bill only with auto bill pay, they will assume you're paying even less attention to what they tack on.

Yup. On my first AT&T bill, I found a "Roadside Assistance" monthly charge for $2.99. Apparently they tacked it on at the AT&T store where I bought the iPhone. When I called to complain about the charge, I made sure that the phone rep followed through and reported the store where the 'slamming' occurred. Hopefully if that store gets enough red marks, the store manager will change his tune about the practice.

[Edit] I should clarify that the phone rep told me that this is not a corporate policy, but most likely at a local level. But who really knows?

macFanDave
Jul 13, 2007, 03:31 PM
I'm stunned at how many people paid those odious and exorbitant "early termination fees" to get an iPhone NOW!

If 35% of the switchers (51%) paid to get out of their contracts and gave them "Money for Nothing" as Dire Straits would call it, and that number is somewhat correct, then this means that about 100,000 people just couldn't wait until their old service expires to get into iPhone nirvana.

That's tens of millions of dollars worth of parting gifts for the losers in the wooing of Apple in the battle for the iPhone. I'm sure Steve wants to call Verizon and say, "Can you hear me now? Good!"

rob@robburns.co
Jul 13, 2007, 03:37 PM
Unless Apple opened the iPhone to 3rd party developers when no one was looking today, there's no way it can run Opera Mobile.


This might just be a misprint there on the website. Its very likely that an ajax / javascript application that works on Opera could also work on iPhone Safari. Perhaps they're waiting to test it, or some other confusion led to the misstatement about Opera mobile and iPhone (in the same sentence)

Well, no. It will be exactly the same price because you are making calls using the AT&T mobile contract. The only savings would come from international calls, since AT&T includes nationwide long distance in the calling plan. A mobile minute is a mobile minute whether you're calling next door or across the country.

There has also been talk that AT&T will soon implement voice-calls over WiFi (I forget what this feature is called). Someone also mentioned that those minutes are free with other carriers. So it seems likely, AT&T might add this feature and bundle it alongside free nights and weekend as "free calls from your private network". Its not quite skype, but it would still be pretty nice.

[edit: combine the free calls from your private network and with the 3rd party service and you've got unlimited world wide calls bundled as long as you're not on Edge]

Random Ping
Jul 13, 2007, 03:48 PM
If you're using skype, how does AT&T know you're making a call. Since it's just sending data, wouldn't that be covered under the unlimited data?

Deep packet inspection and/or statistical profiling of the connection behavior. Statistically, VOIP conversations should look much different than typical web activity.

All AT&T probably needs to do is randomly drop and or delay enough of the suspected packets to make the service unpleasant to use. If the connection is a typical web connection, most users won't notice the delays/drops as the protocols correct this, but for live conversations and/or video, it can be very noticeable.

ajhill
Jul 13, 2007, 03:49 PM
What other consumer product has ever had a 90% satisfaction rate? You know there are 5% or so of people who will never be happy (or at least admit it), so this means that nearly everyone was highly satisfied with their iPhones.

I know I am very happy. To quote a friend "Why can't is be more like a Mac (iPhone) and JUST WORK!"

That's iPhones secret. Simple elegance that just works! :)

rob@robburns.co
Jul 13, 2007, 03:57 PM
If you're using skype, how does AT&T know you're making a call. Since it's just sending data, wouldn't that be covered under the unlimited data?

Deep packet inspection and/or statistical profiling of the connection behavior. Statistically, VOIP conversations should look much different than typical web activity.

All AT&T probably needs to do is randomly drop and or delay enough of the suspected packets to make the service unpleasant to use. If the connection is a typical web connection, most users won't notice the delays/drops as the protocols correct this, but for live conversations and/or video, it can be very noticeable.

No, the Skype server is calling your iPhone and then calling the other party and conferencing you together. The Skype calls do not come in as regular data (under your unlimited data plan), they come in as just another phone call. Its just you can manage the call through a web interface.

To do this over pure data connection, would probably require third-party software installed to get the input from the iPhone microphone transfered over the network. You're probably to going to accomplish that with javascript, DOM calls and other ajax stuff.

rob@robburns.co
Jul 13, 2007, 04:17 PM
This might just be a misprint there on the website. Its very likely that an ajax / javascript application that works on Opera could also work on iPhone Safari. Perhaps they're waiting to test it, or some other confusion led to the misstatement about Opera mobile and iPhone (in the same sentence)

Actually, now that I click through and look at the website:

http://www.soonr.com/web/front/talk.jsp

I see that the errors are just some misunderstandings on the blog page. This is software that you install on your mac or PC. The outbound calls that are conference-called together are between your cell phone and your landline phone (and also a call to the other 2nd party). Its a bit convoluted, but if:

- the other person was a skype user, and
- you were on your night and weekend minutes or had free incoming minutes (like in Europe),

Then the call would basically be free or the cost of calling your cell phone from your landline. to anywhere in the world. Otherwise it would be the cost of your landline charges.

So at most it would cost you skype out minutes; your own landline charges to call your cell phone number and whatever your rate was for incoming call minutes. Is that any clearer?

peters438
Jul 13, 2007, 04:28 PM
To do this over pure data connection, would probably require third-party software installed to get the input from the iPhone microphone transfered over the network. You're probably to going to accomplish that with javascript, DOM calls and other ajax stuff.

Agreed. There's just no way to get access to the iPhone (or any other computer) microphone through pure javascript. Javascript is the only client-side iPhone programming environment exposed to developers right now.

A Java app might be able to do it (assuming the OS exposes the microphone hardware to the Java Virtual Machine). I don't know about Flash.

I can see the benefit of using the Skype conference bridge thingy if you are a big international caller, but other than that, it seems like a convoluted process just to make a call -- something the iPhone is already good at.

peters438
Jul 13, 2007, 04:34 PM
There has also been talk that AT&T will soon implement voice-calls over WiFi (I forget what this feature is called). Someone also mentioned that those minutes are free with other carriers. So it seems likely, AT&T might add this feature and bundle it alongside free nights and weekend as "free calls from your private network". Its not quite skype, but it would still be pretty nice.

Amen to that. We have fine coverage on AT&T, Sprint, T-Mobile and Verizon here in the Norfolk area. Everywhere except inside my house.

desimus
Jul 13, 2007, 04:55 PM
This might just be a misprint there on the website. Its very likely that an ajax / javascript application that works on Opera could also work on iPhone Safari. Perhaps they're waiting to test it, or some other confusion led to the misstatement about Opera mobile and iPhone (in the same sentence)



There has also been talk that AT&T will soon implement voice-calls over WiFi (I forget what this feature is called). Someone also mentioned that those minutes are free with other carriers. So it seems likely, AT&T might add this feature and bundle it alongside free nights and weekend as "free calls from your private network". Its not quite skype, but it would still be pretty nice.

[edit: combine the free calls from your private network and with the 3rd party service and you've got unlimited world wide calls bundled as long as you're not on Edge]

Now using our wifi home networks to make calls would be awesome... but won't AT&T be losing out on money that way? It seems that with the more and more wifi spots available including our own homes that most people could go down to the absolute minimum plan for minutes knowing that most of their time is in a wifi zone. I'm all about it if it's true. I would be able to go to the 450 minutes vs the 900 minutes and save myself $20 a month...but I'm not seeing this happen anytime soon.

BTW I still love my iphone and as a regular consumer not a business phone user this is by far the best phone I've ever used. I had to go through my old razr the other day to clean out all the numbers, pictures, etc. to sell to my roomate and all I could think was... "man this user interface sucks beyond measure!!! I'm so glad I have an iPhone" :):apple::)

SeaFox
Jul 13, 2007, 05:16 PM
• New iPhone owners expected to pay about $35 more a month than their previous cellphone.


I think that's crazy. My cellphone bill is $35 TOTAL.

Plutonius
Jul 13, 2007, 05:23 PM
Only 1 UK network has EDGE (Orange), and at last press release this covered 1/8 of their network... They plan to add EDGE capacity in areas that will not have 3G coverage for a long time.

All other UK networks are GPRS + 3G with no EDGE support at all.

My network 3-UK has the best 3G coverage, and has a roaming GSM agreement for their non-3G areas which are getting less and less.

A thread earlier this month quoted O2 as saying they could easily enable EDGE on their networks. I somewhat believe it since I can't see the iPhone relying on GPRS or a new 3G iPhone coming out before the middle of next year.

bilbo--baggins
Jul 13, 2007, 05:31 PM
A thread earlier this month quoted O2 as saying they could easily enable EDGE on their networks. I somewhat believe it since I can't see the iPhone relying on GPRS or a new 3G iPhone coming out before the middle of next year.

Interesting. That would be a huge positive factor if O2 get an iPhone exlcusive. Mind you, if Orange only have limited EDGE coverage, surely O2 would have their work cut out to achieve widespread EDGE. More likely it would be patchy. Mind you, on my M600i I find that my phone uses GPRS more often than 3G (but the browsing experience is so tedious I rarely bother).

I do wonder whether it would be financially viable for O2 to upgrade to EDGE (I have no idea what cost would be involved). In the UK people think of 3G or not 3G, I doubt that having EDGE would have a big influence over many peoples decision of whether to buy an iPhone.

manu chao
Jul 13, 2007, 05:32 PM
I think that's crazy. My cellphone bill is $35 TOTAL.
Mine is only about $16 per month. Top that! (or rather bottom that).

Plutonius
Jul 13, 2007, 05:45 PM
Interesting. That would be a huge positive factor if O2 get an iPhone exlcusive. Mind you, if Orange only have limited EDGE coverage, surely O2 would have their work cut out to achieve widespread EDGE. More likely it would be patchy. Mind you, on my M600i I find that my phone uses GPRS more often than 3G (but the browsing experience is so tedious I rarely bother).

I do wonder whether it would be financially viable for O2 to upgrade to EDGE (I have no idea what cost would be involved). In the UK people think of 3G or not 3G, I doubt that having EDGE would have a big influence over many peoples decision of whether to buy an iPhone.

The post stated that O2 could enable EDGE on their network through a software change. I'm not sure if it's true but we will find out if/when they make the O2 announcement.

SeaFox
Jul 13, 2007, 05:46 PM
Mine is only about $16 per month. Top that! (or rather bottom that).

Including taxes? Did I mention I'm not a prepaid phone user.

Timothy
Jul 13, 2007, 05:56 PM
Exactly my experience. Edge has been a non issue for me.

Me too. Based on the expectations created in these forums, I was a bit unsure how Edge would perform. It has certainly beaten my expectations of it; I now largely view the "At&t sucks" posts as "sky is falling" hysteria that isn't supported by my experience.

I was on Sprint with a Treo before, and their network was terribly slow. It was essentially unusable. Edge has been performing fantastically; now I surf web site as a matter of general productivity and usage, not as a novelty.

This phone is remarkable; it just works for me in a way that nothing I've ever owned previously (my Newton came very close) has measured up to.

manu chao
Jul 13, 2007, 05:59 PM
Including taxes? Did I mention I'm not a prepaid phone user.
Including taxes. I am not a pre-paid user either. $10 general monthly fee (includes nothing, no minutes, no SMS). Average charges for phone calls and SMS I send per month: $6. I live in Europe, so incoming calls are paid by the person calling me.

EagerDragon
Jul 13, 2007, 06:17 PM
I think they'll regret it, yes.

The bottom line is that people switched almost entirely due to the iPhone, not anything that AT&T did.

Now all AT&T has to do is not totally suck and they have a huge user base til 2012 simply due to loyalty to Apple, not AT&T.

Or they may learn a thing or two from Apple and suck a little less.

SayCheese
Jul 13, 2007, 06:44 PM
I called my service provider (Vodaphone) to cancel my contract with them , it seems I am not the only one. They tried to put me off the iphone by saying ipods were crap & that I would miss out on an upgrade . Who cares when u want an I phone .

Why would you ring up and cancel now?
Surely if you cancel and go to O2 now then you are tied into at least a 12 month contract and then you are going to be in a poorer position when it comes to upgrading to the iPhone in 3 or so months time?

Also the deal with O2 has not been officially announced yet. Unless I am missing something??? If you have gone to O2 now and taken out a 12 month contract and then you find the iPhone has gone to Vodafone/Orange/T-Mobile surely you would be gutted at your decision??

Personally my Vodafone contract was up for renewal on 28th June this year and I am sticking with Vodafone for the moment until we know exactly (via an Apple speech/press release) who the contract has gone to. I am NOT going to be making any rash decisions such as cancelling my contract on the strength of rumours. Remember people this is still just a rumour, and one that I hope is wrong. As far as I am concerned O2 are useless.

EagerDragon
Jul 13, 2007, 07:05 PM
I called my service provider (Vodaphone) to cancel my contract with them , it seems I am not the only one. They tried to put me off the iphone by saying ipods were crap & that I would miss out on an upgrade . Who cares when u want an I phone .

You should have told them that you do not recall asking them their opinion.

ajhill
Jul 13, 2007, 08:01 PM
Sure they all want to partner with Apple now that the iPhone is a huge success. I hope that Apple makes just as good a deal as they got with ATT here in the States.

I love mine. Count me in the 90% that is extremely satisfied! :)

SeaFox
Jul 13, 2007, 08:04 PM
Including taxes. I am not a pre-paid user either. $10 general monthly fee (includes nothing, no minutes, no SMS). Average charges for phone calls and SMS I send per month: $6. I live in Europe, so incoming calls are paid by the person calling me.

Ah, of course. It didn't occur to me you were someplace with a sane mobile provider market.

rob@robburns.co
Jul 13, 2007, 08:30 PM
Actually, now that I click through and look at the website:

http://www.soonr.com/web/front/talk.jsp

I see that the errors are just some misunderstandings on the blog page. This is software that you install on your mac or PC. The outbound calls that are conference-called together are between your cell phone and your landline phone (and also a call to the other 2nd party). Its a bit convoluted, but if:

- the other person was a skype user, and
- you were on your night and weekend minutes or had free incoming minutes (like in Europe),

Then the call would basically be free or the cost of calling your cell phone from your landline. to anywhere in the world. Otherwise it would be the cost of your landline charges.

So at most it would cost you skype out minutes; your own landline charges to call your cell phone number and whatever your rate was for incoming call minutes. Is that any clearer?

Here's a similar VOIP service that doesn't involve your own landline connected computer: strictly a web server/provider solution

http://beta.talkety.com/

and here are there rates:

http://beta.talkety.com/rates

Definitely looks like it would help for frequent international callers and in Europe (where you have free incoming calls).

And for $50 per month you can get unlimited calls to 20 countries from anywhere in the world (though I guess roaming rates would apply if you're outside your home country.).

http://beta.talkety.com/news/

neven
Jul 13, 2007, 09:26 PM
I think that's crazy. My cellphone bill is $35 TOTAL.

Aaaand what's your data plan like on that $35/mo?

It would be really silly to get an iPhone and not use data services.

imacdaddy
Jul 13, 2007, 09:48 PM
Verizon has totally screwed themselves over this. If apple has sold 1million iPhones, which Im sure they have by now, that means roughly 250,000 have left Verizon assuming that 25% of the users have switched to AT&T for the iPhone from Verizon.

Let's just say of those 250K people that were on Verizon's $79.99 monthly plan, that would be $20M monthly cash flow GONE! :eek: No matter what Verizon has up their sleeves, it will be extremely hard to churn back or get new subscribers. Getting back that $20M monthly cash flow that they lost is next to impossible. What I can see is from now on forward all Verizon can do is slash the prices off their plans and start a price war and AT&T will just sit it out with their trump card. Cheaper price plans may not be attractive enough to churn iphone owners away from AT&T, however Apple & AT&T will start pumping out next generation Value Added Services with a monthly subscription to maintain customer "stickiness" for as long as possible to prevent customer churn.

It looks as though AT&T was able to "Think Different" and bought into Apple's idea to have a great device that will be the interface for pure mobile multimedia and communicator device. All AT&T had to do was to support it on the telco side while Apple will make the rest happen. What were Strigl & Seidenberg smoking?!?

Donnacha
Jul 13, 2007, 10:15 PM
At the moment, in the UK, I'm paying £10 per month (including taxes) for 300 rollover minutes to any country, including foreign mobiles, and 300 texts.

As is customary in Europe, I do not lose minutes for incoming calls (caller pays, always), so, I find that 300 rollover minutes are enough for my needs.

Many people in the UK pay more than that to cover the cost of "subsidized" handsets but £10 is about the right base price for the voice/text segment of any package.

I would value the addition of unlimited 3G data at around £20, possibly five or ten pounds more if I can pass connectivity through to my MBP via Bluetooth.

I think that, whoever they go with, Apple need to recognize that the European market tends to be less price sensitive than the American market but we won't tolerate crippled services as much: we love 3G and using our phones as modems for our laptops, missing features that didn't really bother the American market.

Donnacha
Jul 13, 2007, 10:29 PM
... Getting back that $20M monthly cash flow that they lost is next to impossible. What I can see is from now on forward all Verizon can do is slash the prices off their plans and start a price war and AT&T will just sit it out with their trump card. Cheaper price plans may not be attractive enough to churn iphone owners away from AT&T, however Apple & AT&T will start pumping out next generation Value Added Services with a monthly subscription to maintain customer "stickiness" for as long as possible to prevent customer churn.
When you think about it, the market is wide open for one of the other manufacturers to come up with something to fill the iphone-sized gap at all the other telcos.

The idea of an ipod-killer has been a running joke for years because, when you got down to it, the ipod pretty much nailed what was needed in a music player. This situation, however, is different because there are huge segments of the population who either won't or can't go with AT&T, leaving space for an alternative device that the ipod never allowed.

I wonder if any of them, with the gun now to their heads, can get their game together and grab this opportunity. Samsung? Nokia perhaps? I doubt it will be Motorola.

drivera
Jul 14, 2007, 01:38 AM
This may be a little off topic....kind of. Has anyone heard about an Australian version? The rumors seemed to have disappeared.. Now its the UK?

koobcamuk
Jul 14, 2007, 03:55 AM
Glad its going to be o2, i was hoping o2 or orange. Vodaphone have a horible logo, are english and put up they adverts with that idiot football player. 3 dosnt work anyware and t-mobile are expenicve.

What are you trying to say about being English, when in England? I don't get your point at all on that one. You're telling me you like listening to foreign people on customer support? That is why I cancelled with 3. Everytime I called them, I spoke to someone that couldn't understand basic things. I speak very clearly. If they aren't familiar with English towns/names then they're not supportive enough really...

I was on Sprint with a Treo before, and their network was terribly slow. It was essentially unusable. Edge has been performing fantastically; now I surf web site as a matter of general productivity and usage, not as a novelty.

Wait until you get 3G over there... :rolleyes:

Ah, of course. It didn't occur to me you were someplace with a sane mobile provider market.

the network '3' even give you credit/minutes when someone else calls you - an insentive to have lots of calls! ;)

Cabbit
Jul 14, 2007, 06:25 AM
What are you trying to say about being English, when in England? I don't get your point at all on that one. You're telling me you like listening to foreign people on customer support? That is why I cancelled with 3. Everytime I called them, I spoke to someone that couldn't understand basic things. I speak very clearly. If they aren't familiar with English towns/names then they're not supportive enough really...
I am refering to the English adverts for vodaphone with the English football player, it kinda killed Scotish support for vodaphone. Why advertish a English nobody to sell phones in Scotland. It really put me of them as did there logo. O2 is fine there nice and simple never needed any support form them because they work. And Orange im used to because i used it in Thailand, France, and Scotland.

gnasher729
Jul 14, 2007, 06:30 AM
I imagine that a decently priced unlimited data plan is a big requirement for Apple in terms of negotiating with any provider. It might shake up parts of Europe, but I think that's what Apple would push for.

In the UK, Vodaphone offers "unlimited internet access" for £7.50; unfortunately their definition of "unlimited" is 120 MB per month. That is Megabytes, not Gigabytes. Others call 3GB "unlimited", which makes slightly more sense.

With the slowish Edge network, it would be hard for an iPhone user to exceed those 3GB per month by a lot, so AT&T can easily afford a data plan that is only limited by the network speed. For an iPhone using 3G and therefore technically capable of downloading say 40GB a month, I could imagine a data plan with a reasonable limit and reasonable fees if you exceed it. I don't think Apple would ever agree to something like 120MB per month.

j_maddison
Jul 14, 2007, 06:34 AM
At the moment, in the UK, I'm paying £10 per month (including taxes) for 300 rollover minutes to any country, including foreign mobiles, and 300 texts.

As is customary in Europe, I do not lose minutes for incoming calls (caller pays, always), so, I find that 300 rollover minutes are enough for my needs.

Many people in the UK pay more than that to cover the cost of "subsidized" handsets but £10 is about the right base price for the voice/text segment of any package.

I would value the addition of unlimited 3G data at around £20, possibly five or ten pounds more if I can pass connectivity through to my MBP via Bluetooth.

I think that, whoever they go with, Apple need to recognize that the European market tends to be less price sensitive than the American market but we won't tolerate crippled services as much: we love 3G and using our phones as modems for our laptops, missing features that didn't really bother the American market.

I have no idea where you've got that plan from, but it's not representative of an average UK plan. I've never heard of a tariff that low in cost offering so many minutes, its not available from any of the four main networks websites. And I've never heard of minutes being allowed for foreign calls as part of the standard package. If I were you I'd never move from that contract, you'll never get that deal again anywhere!

The average cost for a sim only deal starts between £15 and £20. O2 offer a maximum of 200 minutes at £15, Voda will give you 300 minutes at £20, Orange 125 minutes at £20. T mobile only do a £7.50 offer for 50 minutes. None of the main networks offer international free minutes.

I'm pretty sure that the average arpu in the UK is still £35 (for subsidised handsets), but its been a good nine months since I've worked in that industry.

Jay

OllyW
Jul 14, 2007, 06:58 AM
I have no idea where you've got that plan from, but it's not representative of an average UK plan. I've never heard of a tariff that low in cost offering so many minutes, its not available from any of the four main networks websites. And I've never heard of minutes being allowed for foreign calls as part of the standard package. If I were you I'd never move from that contract, you'll never get that deal again anywhere!

The average cost for a sim only deal starts between £15 and £20. O2 offer a maximum of 200 minutes at £15, Voda will give you 300 minutes at £20, Orange 125 minutes at £20. T mobile only do a £7.50 offer for 50 minutes. None of the main networks offer international free minutes.

I'm pretty sure that the average arpu in the UK is still £35 (for subsidised handsets), but its been a good nine months since I've worked in that industry.

Jay

It's a special SIM only deal from Virgin for it's cable customers, I've got it for my daughter and it saves me a fortune :)

bilbo--baggins
Jul 14, 2007, 07:01 AM
I am refering to the English adverts for vodaphone with the English football player, it kinda killed Scotish support for vodaphone. Why advertish a English nobody to sell phones in Scotland. It really put me of them as did there logo. O2 is fine there nice and simple never needed any support form them because they work. And Orange im used to because i used it in Thailand, France, and Scotland.

I guess Vodafone just aren't aware of, or don't care about, the racist opinion against the English that festers in parts of Scotland.

j_maddison
Jul 14, 2007, 07:04 AM
It's a special SIM only deal from Virgin for it's cable customers, I've got it for my daughter and it saves me a fortune :)

Shame I dont work in a cable area, that would suit my brother down to the ground. That's an excellent deal, you're onto a winner there

jay

I guess Vodafone just aren't aware of, or don't care about, the racist opinion against the English that festers in parts of Scotland.

Ha Ha, I don't think the chap was being racist. Until you live in either Scotland or Wales, you wont realise just how England centric things are. In fact it's quite arrogant and patronising. The media often ignores the ethntic differences, refers to british atheletes or performers as being British or English, unless the athelete loses and then they're Welsh or Scotish again. And there are countless other examples that annoy the hell out of me

It's not that he's being racist, its just annoyance. He's presented you with a small taste of what Scotish and English people have to put up with from the English, and you've totally bitten.

I'm not sure what the Northern Irish think, which is why I haven't commented on them.

Anyway lets not let this thread turn into a political thing.

jay

OllyW
Jul 14, 2007, 07:13 AM
I guess Vodafone just aren't aware of, or don't care about, the racist opinion against the English that festers in parts of Scotland.

That famous "chip on the shoulder", usually most apparent around the time of the World Cup finals.

Roller
Jul 14, 2007, 07:15 AM
It's good to hear that so many people are satisfied, as I generally am.

It's interesting that the top three wish list items quoted in the USA Today article (longer battery life, more memory, faster speed) are primarily hardware-related. But Apple would do well to provide the missing features and take care of problems that they can address via software updates. I hope that this survey doesn't delay that.

koobcamuk
Jul 14, 2007, 07:16 AM
I am refering to the English adverts for vodaphone with the English football player, it kinda killed Scotish support for vodaphone. Why advertish a English nobody to sell phones in Scotland. It really put me of them as did there logo. O2 is fine there nice and simple never needed any support form them because they work. And Orange im used to because i used it in Thailand, France, and Scotland.

I care more about what I pay for my phone useage than which idiotic 'celebrity' they choose to use. I also don't care about the logo, but I can't see what's wrong with it.

I really don't get your point, but maybe if I was from Scotland I would better understand. Who knows. It's vodafone not vodaphone by the way.

I'm not sure what the Northern Irish think, which is why I haven't commented on them.

do they have mobile phones? :eek:

Joking :rolleyes:

I am from Norfolk anyway, so I am used to being the butt of the joke. Who cares. As for racism, its not. It's being xenophobic.

xUKHCx
Jul 14, 2007, 07:20 AM
I care more about what I pay for my phone useage than which idiotic 'celebrity' they choose to use. I also don't care about the logo, but I can't see what's wrong with it.

I really don't get your point, but maybe if I was from Scotland I would better understand. Who knows. It's vodafone not vodaphone by the way.

Havn't had any hands on expereince with vodafone handset do they brand the hell out of them like orange et al do. really hate that, one of the reasons i'm with 02.

nebsta
Jul 14, 2007, 07:37 AM
Ah, of course. It didn't occur to me you were someplace with a sane mobile provider market.

US customers get charged for receiving calls??? Thats crazy!

cal6n
Jul 14, 2007, 07:40 AM
*snip*

As for racism, its not. It's being xenophobic.

Actually it's neither. It's just the failure to realise that UK govt PLC has been shafting us all since before the Magna Carta. Regardless of whether we're from England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, it's the ordinary people that carry the burden of supporting the parasites. The cultural divides and old enmities between the regions, as well as the North/South divide within England and those based on race and religion, are useful to the power-mongers as they cloud the true divide. That between the haves and the have-nots. It's still there, regardless of the attempts to spin it away.

dale.albiston
Jul 14, 2007, 09:41 AM
i've got an o2 phone (K800i) and a contract thats over in december.

750 txt & 300 mins a month for 35 ukp.

if the iphone deal is close to that (either under 40quid or fewer texts) I'll probably go for it.

using it as a modem is nice, but i doubt i'll bother, unless 'unlimited' starts to resemble something useful (given hm gov has just shrugged its shoulders over a petition on this i can't see it somehow) modem use ain't gunna happen.

or at least i won't use it as such.

a few hundred meg a month would do me fine, I have a decent static IP and the ability to run a server so some sort of proxy can be setup to strip out adverts and other multimeg crap..

however unless i can run a decent email app, with decent filters, I won't be using mobile email.

my current camera phone runs to 3.2meg, so the iphones is a step down.

but and its a big but, unless there is a way to actually use the data space on the phone as a disc i'll stick to a seperate ipod and phone, both of which i have.

this looks good, but i'm not sold on it yet

Digital Skunk
Jul 14, 2007, 10:22 AM
O2, not the best choice for the UK. Vodafone have a much better network.

I guess they were the only company who would bend over far enough for big Jobs to do the business.

This choice will affect iPhone sales, says he who's now thinking twice about it. If it were Vodafone; no issues.

Ho hum.

I wonder if a 3G version is coming for Europe? Seems stupid to go back to slow networks now all the carriers have invested in 3G.

I've used O2 before and it's not exactly great in my opinion.

I'm currently on a Vodafone contract which -- as far as I'm aware -- has a much more reliable network.

Even if it IS O2, I'm sure I'd make the switch when my contract is done. If they choose EDGE over 3G it won't be much of a deal-breaker for me, but who has EDGE in UK? Eeek!

That's just the way it worked over here in the states. Verizon and Sprint were much better networks but Apple chose AT&T instead... opting for a slower network with limited service.

JeromeOD
Jul 14, 2007, 10:34 AM
I've currently got a K800 on Orange, and the 3G data is pretty disappointing, when it drops back to GPRS the difference isn't like chalk and cheese for what I use data for. I'd rather have the battery life, and if they can get an edge network running at 180-200k in the UK, then great, that's enough for me. I don't use video calling, it's terrible quality. Moving between 2g and 3g networks is also far from seamless on my SE K800. The only things I would miss on the current iPhone software would be bluetooth file exchange, MMS and using it as a modem. Oh, and if the plans on AT&T are anything to go by for what O2 have in store, i'll save about £90 a month compared to our phones on orange (most expensive data in the whole world), so the price of the iPhones themselves will be immaterial.

kallisti
Jul 14, 2007, 12:20 PM
When you think about it, the market is wide open for one of the other manufacturers to come up with something to fill the iphone-sized gap at all the other telcos.


In theory the market is wide open. In practice it isn't. The iPhone is completely amazing to use and I doubt any other phone maker is going to come close to reproducing it in the near future. The iPhone simply works on every level.

As a phone I am getting better reception in Rhode Island than I ever did with Verizon.

The UI is amazing. Absolutely amazing. It is intuitive on a level that no other current phones can match. My wife (who is a technophobe) figured out how to use it with no coaching from me. It is the first device that she has ever lusted after. I can't stress this enough. She hates technology, and yet she fell in love with it almost immediately.

The built in apps work well. The virtual keyboard works well. Syncing works flawlessly.

I am using iCal for the first time because it is now actually useful to me. Visual voicemail, while it initially seemed like a gimick, has gotten to the point that I'm not sure how I lived without it. Email is no longer something I dread dealing with as it's now MUCH easier to keep on top of it throughout the day.

While I was initially scared about the slow speed of EDGE, I have to say that in practice it isn't that bad. I am surfing more on my iPhone than I do on my laptop or desktop.

Maps is amazing. I never really found Google maps all that exciting on my laptop. On my iPhone is addicting. Very, very addicting.

Multitouch still blows me away. It is so easy to use. I find myself becoming annoyed with my MBP that it doesn't feature multitouch.

While other manufacturers will no doubt try to fill the perceived price void created by the iPhone, they will most likely fail. None of them will be able to create the total package that makes the iPhone work. Feature-wise, they may be able to create something that seems to compare. I am highly doubtful that anyone else will be able to create the total package that makes the iPhone so amazing anytime soon.

koobcamuk
Jul 14, 2007, 12:22 PM
Havn't had any hands on expereince with vodafone handset do they brand the hell out of them like orange et al do. really hate that, one of the reasons i'm with 02.

Quite heavily branded, but I don't mind. There's always other themes and things. Apple wouldn't allow branding anyway. It's not as bad as Orange.

I just like my £15 a month for 500 mins and 500 texts. Throw in the vodafone 'passport deal' and I am really happy.

JeromeOD
Jul 14, 2007, 12:29 PM
Kallisti, what's the email like, given that there's no spam control? Apple Mail filters about 40-50 spams a day for me, I don't relish getting those all delivered to my iPhone.

MacTheSpoon
Jul 14, 2007, 12:45 PM
Count me in as one of the very happy owners. :) It isn't perfect, but it's awesome, and I wouldn't want any other phone out there. I just love this thing.

When they start allowing 3d party apps on it, I will be one of the extremely happy owners. :) This thing has so much potential, and I'd really love to see what developers do with it.

rob@robburns.co
Jul 14, 2007, 02:12 PM
When you think about it, the market is wide open for one of the other manufacturers to come up with something to fill the iphone-sized gap at all the other telcos.

In theory the market is wide open. In practice it isn't.

I agree with kallisti. Donnacha, if you think the idea of an iPod killer is a joke, then an iPhone killer is an even bigger joke. The competition will definitely be going after the iPhone like its the holy grail, but they will most likely fail to capture its UI elegance. The iPod would be a cinch to mimic compared to an iPhone. Apple has raised the bar here tremendously.

Donnacha
Jul 14, 2007, 04:57 PM
rob and kallisti, I understand what you're saying about the superior design of the iphone but, whereas with the ipod superior design alone was enough to dominate the market, with the iphone you've got an entirely new variable: an existing eco-system of telcos, each with existing customers, familiarity, brand-awareness and contracts.

All I'm saying is that, if another manufacturer came out with someone even vaguely as good as the iphone, huge forces would swing behind it because the industry is desperate not to let Apple wrench the power they've always enjoyed.

This is not a re-run of the ipod's unstoppable rise, this will be more like the fight between Mac and Windows, an inferior OS which managed to get vested interests to line up behind it.

rob@robburns.co
Jul 14, 2007, 05:04 PM
rob and kallisti, I understand what you're saying about the superior design of the iphone but, whereas with the ipod superior design alone was enough to dominate the market, with the iphone you've got an entirely new variable: an existing eco-system of telcos, each with existing customers, familiarity, brand-awareness and contracts.

All I'm saying is that, if another manufacturer came out with someone even vaguely as good as the iphone, huge forces would swing behind it because the industry is desperate not to let Apple wrench the power they've always enjoyed.

This is not a re-run of the ipod's unstoppable rise, this will be more like the fight between Mac and Windows, an inferior OS which managed to get vested interests to line up behind it.

OK, I see what you're saying now. I definitely agree with that. Because of the existing power-base, I wouldn't be surprised to see REM put out two solo paper cups, tied together by a string and then have the industry pundits herald the end of the iPhone. And tactics like that have effects too. So its a concern for the iPhone's market success.

Donnacha
Jul 14, 2007, 05:16 PM
I have no idea where you've got that plan from, but it's not representative of an average UK plan. I've never heard of a tariff that low in cost offering so many minutes, its not available from any of the four main networks websites. And I've never heard of minutes being allowed for foreign calls as part of the standard package. If I were you I'd never move from that contract, you'll never get that deal again anywhere!
Jay, you're wrong.

As OllyW says, it's a SIM only deal from Virgin but I was using it as an example of what the base price for voice and text connectivity should be, without handsets, multimedia or other distractions. It's also worth noting that I didn't have to get tied into a contract to get that price either - I can cancel at any time and my only obligation is to pay for the current month.

Remember, Virgin buys their service from T-Mobile, so, there's are already 2 layers of profit there. People may well pay more for their "deals" but this is what you should consider the base price from any provider; koobcamuk's £15 for 500 minutes and 500 texts from Orange is pretty much the same price. I have seen ALL the telcos except Vodafone run deals in the same ballpark - you just have to check out the money-saving forums occasionally.

I highlighted the base price so that people can have a better stab at estimating what the plans accompanying the unsubsidized iphone should be - there's no point in people basing their guesses on their current, awful deal which some spotty smoothy in the Carphonewarehouse talked them into. Some people felt that the AT&T plans, once revealed, were a pleasant surprise, but this was mainly because they had been paying too much to their existing providers. It wasn't a bad deal but it wasn't some sort of miracle. Expect roughly the same here in the UK.

rob@robburns.co
Jul 14, 2007, 05:30 PM
Jay, you're wrong.

As OllyW says, it's a SIM only deal from Virgin but I was using it as an example of what the base price for voice and text connectivity should be, without handsets, multimedia or other distractions. …

I highlighted the base price so that people can have a better stab at estimating what the plans accompanying the unsubsidized iphone should be - there's no point in people basing their guesses on their current, awful deal which some spotty smoothy in the Carphonewarehouse talked them into. Some people felt that the AT&T plans, once revealed, were a pleasant surprise, but this was mainly because they had been paying too much to their existing providers. It wasn't a bad deal but it wasn't some sort of miracle. Expect roughly the same here in the UK.

While its definitely interesting to learn about special deals on plans, they tell us nothing about what a wireless plan should cost. I'll remind you all of the economics issues again, but its always a question of marginal cost (if you remember that from your intro economics class). The marginal cost of a cell phone customer for any provider is 0 (whether in pounds dollars or whatever). The average cost of a customer is definitely higher than that. However, given a provider who has excess capacity (and they all need to have a good measure of excess capacity), they add to their bottom-line whenever a customer pays more than the marginal cost: i.e., more than 0. The average cost may be something like £25 (hypothetically), but anything over £0 adds to the bottom line. They need to find some customers who pay much greater than £25 also, but any additional customer who pays more than 0 increases their profits. On average, they need their customers to pay greater than £25 pounds, but any number of them can pay much less (so long as the average is greater than 25).

If Virgin comes along and tells them they can add many many new customers to the network, Virgin can get a wholesale price discount and then the network provider can offer Virgin very attractive deals to increase their subscriber base. This is good especially if they think Virgin will draw from completely different customers than they can currently target.

A similar example here in the US, AT&T offers a $2 add-on to their home DSL subscribers that gives them access to 10,000 AT&T wireless hotspots throughout the US. The same service for non-DSL subscribers costs anywhere from $20 to $40 per month. They probably only offer that deal to their DSL subscribers, because they believe there is very little overlap between home DSL subscribers and customer paying $40 for wireless hotspot subscriptions. It would be nice to see AT&T add such a deep discount for iPhone subscribers who want to use AT&T WiFi hotspots (you find them at a lot of McDonalds here in the US). It might help balance some of the load on the Edge network as well as provide a great benefit for iPhone users to get some really fast network access.

heisetax
Jul 14, 2007, 06:34 PM
Well, of course, they had the most people to loose.



The model that Apple & AT&T seem to be operating under is in complete opposition with Verizon's operating model. They provide Ring Tones, music & photos to sell more types of services not to help an outside company or partner like Apple or to help supply their customers with low cost user run services. I'm speaking this as a Verizon customer that is happy with my cell phone service, but do not use any of the other Verizon pay extra for services. Around here they have about the best cell connection service. That's what I bought my Verizon cell phone plan for. Not for the unsupported items & features of my cell phone.

I don't believe that Verizon would have goten along with the always obtrusive Apple. AT&T, not being the top cell phone company, had less to lose & more to gain. I would have liked to have seen either Verizon or Sprint to have been the iPhone partner. But they are both doing too well on their own to change their business model to that which Apple appears to require. Part of the requiring has to do with the many features of the iPhone.

AT&T has the reputation of being the company that many of the locations that wanted to sell their service could not make a connection, let alone a reliable one. If I changed to AT&T my out of town daughter would also have to change to AT&T & I would have to accept the loss of cell phone service in a lot of the area that Verizon services very well. One person I know changed because they were on roaming in most of Omaha, NE where we both live.

iPhones for those that want it bad enough to go with AT&T cell phone service or good cell phone service & using one of the other carriers. The choice is yours.

Bill the TaxMan

Donnacha
Jul 14, 2007, 08:27 PM
While its definitely interesting to learn about special deals on plans, they tell us nothing about what a wireless plan should cost. I'll remind you all of the economics issues again ...
Er... thanks for the lesson :rolleyes:

I wasn't using the "special" deal to say anything about what the wireless part of any deal should be, I was being very specific: that deal's price represents the bottom line, the limbo point, the level to which they can, if they choose, profitably provide a voice and text service, even the piggy-backers like Virgin, and similar deals have been spotted in the wild from all but one UK telco.

Having a rough understanding of how far the voice and text part of a UK package can be pushed (and, believe me, Apple will have pushed like Hell) gives us a starting point, and that's all, towards guessing how much the data part weighs in at.

Another indicator is this month's data card price war between T-Mobile and Vodafone, both now offering "unlimited" (3GB) for under £30 inc VAT.

That, and the base rate for voice and texts you choose to ignore, lead me to guess that, if the Euro iphone is 3G and offers Bluetooth pass-through (and it really does need both to cut it in Europe), the overall deal will come in at £39.99 inc VAT for 300 mins and 300 texts, just over $80.

I think you'll find I'm right.

rob@robburns.co
Jul 14, 2007, 09:02 PM
The model that Apple & AT&T seem to be operating under is in complete opposition with Verizon's operating model. They provide Ring Tones, music & photos to sell more types of services not to help an outside company or partner like Apple or to help supply their customers with low cost user run services. I'm speaking this as a Verizon customer that is happy with my cell phone service, but do not use any of the other Verizon pay extra for services. Around here they have about the best cell connection service. That's what I bought my Verizon cell phone plan for. Not for the unsupported items & features of my cell phone.

I would imagine the most difficult obstacle stopping Verizon from making a deal with Apple was their business model of crippling hardware and trying to sell customers all sorts of useless media they don't really want while keeping from the services they doo want. That doesn't jibe with iPhone.

I don't believe that Verizon would have goten along with the always obtrusive Apple. AT&T, not being the top cell phone company, had less to lose & more to gain. I would have liked to have seen either Verizon or Sprint to have been the iPhone partner. But they are both doing too well on their own to change their business model to that which Apple appears to require. Part of the requiring has to do with the many features of the iPhone.

There are so many things wrong with this statement.

First, from: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireless/2007-05-21-at&t-iphone_N.htm

AT&T currently claims about 62.2 million customers. Verizon and Sprint have 60.7 million and 53.6 million, respectively.

So AT&T is not a small-time provider. I think going back in history there are times when Verizon was on top and times when Cingular was on top. If reports are correct and Verizon has a better network than AT&T, then they may be spending more on the network than AT&T and they therefore need the customers more than AT&T. Second, the only feature AT&T likely had to change was to add server side-support for visual voicemail. This is a minor upgrade to a provider with 60 million subscribers. The other issue was perhaps Apple pushing for an acceleration of upgrades to AT&T's Edge network. If Verison's network is as great as many claim, Verizon wouldn't have even had to accommodate Apple on that request: its already taken care of.

I think the best explanation for Verizon losing the iPhone is that they just had their heads up their asses.

rootboy
Jul 14, 2007, 09:16 PM
Looking at ATT's 3G coverage maps I see that we don't have 3G service in our area -- in fact, it seems to be limited to large metropolitan areas. In second tier cities such as mine, EDGE is all we have. Lack of 3G in the iPhone is a non-issue here.

rob@robburns.co
Jul 14, 2007, 09:17 PM
Er... thanks for the lesson :rolleyes:

I wasn't using the "special" deal to say anything about what the wireless part of any deal should be, I was being very specific: that deal's price represents the bottom line, the limbo point, the level to which they can, if they choose, profitably provide a voice and text service, even the piggy-backers like Virgin, and similar deals have been spotted in the wild from all but one UK telco..

Well, you should have paid a little closer attention to the lesson rather than rolling your eyes. I wasn't trying to school you on some obvious point; the idea of marginal cost is something most people in the World (including CEOs of businesses) don't understand. The bottom line or limbo point you're looking for is £0 or 0$ based on today's currency conversion rate. Anything more than that and the carrier is making more profit. Or are you saying that the deal Virgin can cut with a carrier is the best Apple could hope for.

My guess is that Apple is going to want the hard limits removed from the data plan much more than any special rates. Also the surprise here wasn't due to iPhone rates being better than anything AT&T offered before. It was more over expectations many had that AT&T would try to gouge iPhone buyers (they didn't). Data plans in the US are often tiered by how much data the carrier "thinks" you'll be likely to transfer each month: anywhere from about $20 (for a phone where you'd rather throw it against the wall than browse the web with it) to about $60 (for laptop connections) per month. The fear was that since the iPhone was a device users would actually make use of for data transfers, that this might translate into a $40 or a $60 data plan. Instead it came in at $20 unlimited (actually unlimited).

Another indicator is this month's data card price war between T-Mobile and Vodafone, both now offering "unlimited" (3GB) for under £30 inc VAT.

That's amazing to me that you have "unlimited" data plans in the UK with a fixed limit. I thought in the US, we let our advertisers and markets play faster and looser with the truth than anywhere else in the World. Here the providers have "unlimited " plans that they don't want us using in an unlimited way, but they don't put any hard limits on it for fear of litigation.

That, and the base rate for voice and texts you choose to ignore, lead me to guess that, if the Euro iphone is 3G and offers Bluetooth pass-through (and it really does need both to cut it in Europe), the overall deal will come in at £39.99 inc VAT for 300 mins and 300 texts, just over $80.

I think you'll find I'm right.

Is this through palm reading or do you have another technique to tell the future?

scu
Jul 14, 2007, 10:23 PM
I think the best explanation for Verizon losing the iPhone is that they just had their heads up their asses.

LOL:D This says it all. Verizon will feel the pain in 4 years after the 40th million iPhone is sold and Verizon just lost its 14th million customer. By the ATT will have improved their network, everyone will have 3G phones, and enjoying first video conf. on their phones.

ajhill
Jul 14, 2007, 11:01 PM
LOL:D This says it all. Verizon will feel the pain in 4 years after the 40th million iPhone is sold and Verizon just lost its 14th million customer. By the ATT will have improved their network, everyone will have 3G phones, and enjoying first video conf. on their phones.


Obviously Apple will benefit greatly by this. I wonder who is going to be the vendor on th ATT network build out? Cisco? Broadcom? Corning? (Fiber).

Or maybe Apple buys a company that is building out some sort of next generation network Wi-Max or some such technology.

Me, I'm just happy to have a phones that's at least 5 times better than my old, tired Razr. Sure it looked good, but it didn't do much.

You'd have to "pry my iPhone from my cold, dead hand to get it away from me" too! The quote, of course, is Steve Jobs at the last Apple Inc. shareholder's meeting.

j_maddison
Jul 14, 2007, 11:11 PM
Er... thanks for the lesson :rolleyes:

I wasn't using the "special" deal to say anything about what the wireless part of any deal should be, I was being very specific.

Oh you werent were you? Firstly you never mentioned it was a special deal, secondly you werent saying what you thought the wireless part of any deal should be?? perhaps you dont remember writing this?

Many people in the UK pay more than that to cover the cost of "subsidized" handsets but £10 is about the right base price for the voice/text segment of any package.

Sounds suspiciously like you were to me.........

:rolleyes:

CalfCanuck
Jul 14, 2007, 11:39 PM
US customers get charged for receiving calls??? Thats crazy!

Yes, the way they bill calls in the US is an entirely different approach. But the key difference is that it there is no additional charge (beyond long distance) for the CALLER to phone a cell phone. Local calls (generally within 12 miles or something like that) from a land line have been free and unlimited for decades, and so a local call to a cell phone is also free. (This also explains the appeal of thousands of local ISP dial-in numbers back in the days of modems.) This came from the old days when expensive long distance calls subsidized unlimited cheap local calls, but they were all the same carrier - the old ATT before it was broken up.

So I can call a friend's local cell phone from a land line, talk for an hour, and as the caller it will cost me nothing. As for the person receiving the call, it really is fairer to have them pay for using their cell phone. When I had my German pay-as -you go cell phone, I understood that any caller dialing me up was subsidizing my minimal monthly fees - they paid over 40 cents a minute to call me. So a 5 minute call, that cost me nothing to receive, was in fact quite expensive to the caller - 2 euros.

And be aware that most wireless carriers in the US have unlimited weekend and night minutes (for both calling and receiving). They usually also have unlimited calls 24 hours a day within their own cell phone networks (Verizon to Verizon, ATT to ATT, etc). So often you use fewer minutes than one would expect (expect for business).

Donnacha
Jul 14, 2007, 11:41 PM
Is this through palm reading or do you have another technique to tell the future?
Yes, palm reading. Just wait and you'll see that I'm right. £39.99 inc VAT, 300 mins and 300 texts, unlimited data ("fair use" limit of 3GB), no connection fee.

rob@robburns.co
Jul 14, 2007, 11:59 PM
Yes, palm reading. Just wait and you'll see that I'm right. £39.99 inc VAT, 300 mins and 300 texts, unlimited data ("fair use" limit of 3GB), no connection fee.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you being sarcastic now? £40 per month for service? That's a lot more than iPhone users are paying in the US. I thought the point you (and other have made too) was how inexpensive service is in UK.

AT&T iPhone plans start at $60 for 450 (daytime) minutes, unlimited night and weekend minutes, unlimited AT&T to AT&T minutes, 200 SMS messages, and unlimited (fair use unlimited) data. Add $15 (IIRC) and you've got unlimited SMS too.

It wouldn't surprise me that the rates are more in the UK, but others keep saying they're so inexpensive.

As I said before I think Apple will push for real unlimited data. After all, the iPhone will encourage much data transfer. And Apple doesn't want the reputation that iPhone will cost you unbelievable add-on charges for data (or get cut-off; what do they do when you hit 3GB). Someone had said you can't even download that much on Edge in a month. That may be. However, at 3mbit per second you'll download 3GB in just a few hours. At Edge speeds speeds it would take maybe 6 times that or 18 hours. A few hours on 3G and your unlimited allotment is used up?

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 12:03 AM
Oh you werent were you? Firstly you never mentioned it was a special deal,
The point wasn't that it was a special deal, what the Hell is a special deal anyway? Any phone "deal" could be considered special, the point about ones like this, whether 300/300 for £10 to 500/500 for £15 inc VAT, is that they represent what currently appear to be the lowest prices regularly made available by almost all the UK carriers to members of the general public without long-term contracts or strings attached.

I would consider a special deal, in the sense that you use it, to mean something that is available only to, say, NHS staff and is considerably cheaper than anything made regularly available to members of the general public.

secondly you werent saying what you thought the wireless part of any deal should be?? perhaps you dont remember writing this?

Originally Posted by Donnacha

Many people in the UK pay more than that to cover the cost of "subsidized" handsets but £10 is about the right base price for the voice/text segment of any package.

Sounds suspiciously like you were to me.........

:rolleyes:
Wrong again, Jay. Looks suspiciously like I specifically said voice/text, not one word about wireless there - perhaps you should read an excerpt before you flourish it.

I base my estimate for the wireless segment, instead, upon the price range that data card deals have been pushed down to within the past fortnight - stick those two observations and amounts together, I believe we've got ourselves the right figure.

rob@robburns.co
Jul 15, 2007, 12:19 AM
As I said before I think Apple will push for real unlimited data. After all, the iPhone will encourage much data transfer. And Apple doesn't want the reputation that iPhone will cost you unbelievable add-on charges for data (or get cut-off; what do they do when you hit 3GB). Someone had said you can't even download that much on Edge in a month. That may be. However, at 3mbit per second you'll download 3GB in just a few hours. At Edge speeds speeds it would take maybe 6 times that or 18 hours. A few hours on 3G and your unlimited allotment is used up?

The more I think about this the more astonished I am. Is this 3GB limit just a UK thing or is this something throughout Euorpe? What good is 3G if you're limited to 3GB? There are a lot of phone users in the US, that would never go over 3GB but that's because the phones are made to make browsing the web extremely painful. Only those tethering their phones to their laptops are going to be able to transfer much more data than that. However, iPhone changes the whole game. You can download that much in a few days messing around with the YouTube app.

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 12:21 AM
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you being sarcastic now? £40 per month for service. That's a lot more than iPhone users are paying in the US. I thought the point you (and other have made too) was how inexpensive service is in UK.
Nothing in the UK is inexpensive compared to America except healthcare (and, frankly, if we can have one thing everyone, even the homeless, can afford, healthcare is not a bad choice!).

Bear in mind that all UK prices include VAT @ 17.5%, which pays for a lot of other public services that are privatized in the States, so, that's built into the cost of pretty much everything we buy.


AT&T iPhone plans start at $60 for 450 (daytime) minutes, unlimited night and weekend minutes, unlimited AT&T to AT&T minutes, 200 SMS messages, and unlimited (fair use unlimited) data. Add $15 (IIRC) and you've got unlimited SMS too.

It wouldn't surprise me that the rates are more in the UK, but others keep saying they're so inexpensive.
Hmmm ... I'd take Europeans bragging about their mobiles with a pinch of salt - phones are about the only area of technology where the US has messed up badly, so, folks over here tend to go on about it a bit much. In my experience, the vast majority of people here in the UK are suckered into really bad deals anyway because they don't understand who is ultimately going to pay for that nice, shiny phone. Seriously, most people aren't even aware when they're signing up for 18 rather than 12 months.


As I said before I think Apple will push for real unlimited data. After all, the iPhone will encourage much data transfer. And Apple doesn't want the reputation that iPhone will cost you unbelievable add-on charges for data (or get cut-off; what do they do when you hit 3GB). Someone had said you can't even download that much on Edge in a month. However, at 256mbit per second you'll download 3GBi in just a few hours. At 3G speeds it could happen in under an hour. Under an hour and your unlimited allotment is used up?
Yeah, you're right, one of the main thrusts behind the iphone is the re-invention of data as an always-on utility that you don't have to think about. The problem is that, as you note, the 3G European consumers will demand, coupled with the concept of unlimited data, creates problems and costs for the telcos that Edge could never generate. That's why I'm basing the second part of my costings on the (recently slashed) prices of "unlimited" non-voice/text 3G data card plans, because that's the only valid existing comparison.

That's the other reason why the UK will be more expensive than the US, because the buyer will actually be demanding and getting more.

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 12:27 AM
The more I think about this the more astonished I am. Is this 3GB limit just a UK thing or is this something throughout Euorpe? What good is 3G if you're limited to 3GB? There are a lot of phone users in the US, that would never go over 3GB but that's because the phones are made to make browsing the web extremely painful. Only those tethering their phones to their laptops are going to be able to transfer much more data than that. However, iPhone changes the whole game. You can download that much in a few days messing around with the YouTube app.
It's not a hard limit and would only be a problem if you persistently went over it. 3GB is actually loads unless you're torrenting or whatever. In terms of speed, HDSPA is limited (by the telcos) to, I think, 1.8Mb, with a possible jump to 3.6 in the near future and, ultimately, 7.2, so, nowhere near as fast as the cable connections most of us have.

These limits, called "fair use" policies, are used by many ISPs in the UK and are mainly targetted at peopled consistently swapping huges amount of stuff. The ISPs in the States shape bandwidth and generally mess their customers around too, they just don't admit it.

rob@robburns.co
Jul 15, 2007, 12:43 AM
These limits, called "fair use" policies, are used by many ISPs in the UK and are mainly targetted at peopled consistently swapping huges amount of stuff. The ISPs in the States shape bandwidth and generally mess their customers around too, they just don't admit it.

I have to say there's something very Orwellian about an unlimited data plan that's limited be 3GB or fair use. What would be fair would be to name the plan after the amount of data transfer I'll actually be limited too (even if its not a hard and fast limit). I guess I expect marketing speak to be a little more restricted in Europe than the US, but I don't think they could get away with that here. Yes, there are stories of customers being dropped for using too much data on their unlimited data plans, but here they don't give you even a ballpark estimate of what they would consider too much. Maybe its only a subtle difference, but it just strikes me as a little odd.

In any even, I just don't think those limits are going to work with iPhone (in US or UK). Fair use data transfer for an iPhone would probably need to be 10x or 20x the 3GB limit. Especially if Apple made iTunes store content available over the net directly to the iPhone (rather than syncing through iTunes), as many have bee hoping for.

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 01:26 AM
Well, obviously, it would be nice if there were no limits on anything but given that we're talking about a shared infrastructure that we're all paying for and which most of us use in bursts, I can see how people permanently drawing as much from the systems as they can would slow things down for everyone and that is, of course, not fair.

The best analogy I can think of is a city's water system - it's create to be able to draw a bath when you want but, obviously, we can't all do it at the same time or, worse, leaving our bathes running unplugged.

Some file-swappers are the exactly equivalent of someone leaving their bath running and unplugged all day, particularly if they are part of a neighborhood cable circuit. If every apartment in your building started running out of water because a guy on the fifth floor was using huge amounts of water to run some sort of hydroponic or industrial process in his spare room, you'd consider that an unfair use of a shared resource and insist they made private arrangements.

What the fair use policies are saying is, "Look, we created this really cheap broadband package and it's cheap because 95% of our customers just surf and watch youtube, but now we see that 50% of our bandwidth costs are going towards maintaining 5% of our users. This package is not designed for you, if you want to squeeze that much out of your connection, pay an extra £5 or £10 to go with one the ISPs who aren't targeting the mainstream market"

I think that's fair enough because, with ADSL at least, there are tons of providers. Myself, I'm on cable, Virgin, and they've recently introduced there own version of a fair use policy: if they detect more than 1GB of torrent activity during peak times (between 4pm and midnight) they will narrow your bandwidth - you're still able to surf etc but your torrents slow to a crawl. As I understand it, the shaping is removed once peak time finishes and is not re-instated unless you, once again, exceed the peak time limit.

I torrent quite a bit, so, yeah, a tad inconvenient for me but, to be fair, I was probably inconveniencing others. What the Hell, I'll pay $20 a month for a good Usenet provider and get my stuff far more bandwidth-efficiently than torrenting anyway.

koobcamuk
Jul 15, 2007, 04:03 AM
*snip*
it really is fairer to have them pay for using their cell phone.

No it isn't. Not if they're being called by someone. I would hardly ever answer.

dale.albiston
Jul 15, 2007, 05:02 AM
i think i read osmewhere the advertising standards people would let the 'unlimited' thing fly as long as the fair usage bit was in the same advert somewhere, and it had to be 'fair'*, its something like 80% of users must be below the limit, i also think that if a service is advertised as being suitble for video downloads then caps are silly.

BT are currently pushing a set top box that connects to the net via broadband to watch pay per view films.. I'm willing to bet the data is considered part of your BB usage allowance.. this is crap..


* they have a strange definition of fair, personally i';d like to see the limits advertised directly.

manu chao
Jul 15, 2007, 05:39 AM
Yes, the way they bill calls in the US is an entirely different approach. But the key difference is that it there is no additional charge (beyond long distance) for the CALLER to phone a cell phone. [...]

In the end is just a different kind of business model. The advantage of the business model might have been that since getting a cell phone (and waiting to be called) was relatively cheap, a lot of people early got cell phones. It kick-started the market much faster. Once all these cell phones were around, not having one became an anachronism. Moreover, people having the cell phones could not resist the temptation to wait to be called but started calling other people themselves. So, from the business side it probably was pretty smart move.

But also from the personal feeling what is right, I think the European model is preferable. Those who take action (ie, call other people) should be the ones paying for it. If a business wants to call their customers, it shouldn't be the customers paying for it. If your friend wants to talk to you for hours, (s)he should pay for it. I should add that cell phones in most if not all European countries always had a different area code, the caller always new (s)he was paying more.

Yixian
Jul 15, 2007, 06:34 AM
When they say "very soon" what kind of time frame are we talking about here? Before September? Before October?

j_maddison
Jul 15, 2007, 07:16 AM
The point wasn't that it was a special deal, what the Hell is a special deal anyway? Any phone "deal" could be considered special, the point about ones like this, whether 300/300 for £10 to 500/500 for £15 inc VAT, is that they represent what currently appear to be the lowest prices regularly made available by almost all the UK carriers to members of the general public without long-term contracts or strings attached.

I would consider a special deal, in the sense that you use it, to mean something that is available only to, say, NHS staff and is considerably cheaper than anything made regularly available to members of the general public.


Wrong again, Jay. Looks suspiciously like I specifically said voice/text, not one word about wireless there - perhaps you should read an excerpt before you flourish it.

I base my estimate for the wireless segment, instead, upon the price range that data card deals have been pushed down to within the past fortnight - stick those two observations and amounts together, I believe we've got ourselves the right figure.

Listen, you keep changing the goal post because you wont admit you're wrong about something. You try to put words into peoples mouths, and when they correct you, you resort to personal remarks. I didnt say you were talking about the wireless (data) element, I just said wireless. Wireless means wireless, and as your original post said text and voice, it's pretty obvious that I was replying to that statement. Your post clearly said it was voice and data. £10 is an unrealistic tariff for most people, because the majority of customers in the uk who are on a contract pay at least double if nto trebble that.

It is a special deal in the sense of it is not a standard tariff that is offered across the board. The cell companies offer special deals, as do alot of companies who sell products or services, throughout the year. The four main networks dont offer many of the caveats of the Virgin deal. And as already stated, by others, its a deal that is only avaiable to Virgin cable customers. many people in the UK don't live in a cable area, which means they can't take advantage of that specific deal.

OllyW, koobcamuk, and rob@robburns.co all replied in an inteligent and civil manner, heed their example

Jay

smiddlehurst
Jul 15, 2007, 07:49 AM
At the moment, in the UK, I'm paying £10 per month (including taxes) for 300 rollover minutes to any country, including foreign mobiles, and 300 texts.

As is customary in Europe, I do not lose minutes for incoming calls (caller pays, always), so, I find that 300 rollover minutes are enough for my needs.

Many people in the UK pay more than that to cover the cost of "subsidized" handsets but £10 is about the right base price for the voice/text segment of any package.

I would value the addition of unlimited 3G data at around £20, possibly five or ten pounds more if I can pass connectivity through to my MBP via Bluetooth.

I think that, whoever they go with, Apple need to recognize that the European market tends to be less price sensitive than the American market but we won't tolerate crippled services as much: we love 3G and using our phones as modems for our laptops, missing features that didn't really bother the American market.

Funny, but I'm British and I don't really recognise the country / average user that you're describing here.

The killer apps in the UK are text messaging and photographs. It is very rare indeed that I see someone connecting their laptop via a 3G phone to the net (they're far more likely to go sit in Starbucks and pay for Wi-fi). In fact 3G as a whole has pretty much been a flop in this country so far with the networks struggling to even start to make back the money they've invested in it. They keep introducing new toys to make use of the bandwidth (the latest is Sky television on demand) but the demand just isn't there.

Actually, thinking about it, I was wrong when I said the killer apps were text and photos. Those are certainly two of the main attractions but pale into insignificance when compared to the big 'un: Style. People upgrade their handsets at an incredible rate, often only barely getting to the end of their contract before upgrading. The number of functions a phone has is important, but only for something to throw into pub conversations about how YOUR mobile can control the oxygen supply on the international space station while THEIRS can't even make you a cup of tea when the alarm goes off. The sleeker and 'sexier' the handset, the more that get sold, doubly so if you get a model that looks like a million bucks and happens to be just expensive enough to keep it out of the hands of the great unwashed (remember the RAZR when that first came out?).

Apple is going to succeed in this market, end of story. No-one will care that you can't install third party applications (sorry, no-one who isn't a techie geek like the vast majority of us macrumors posters) or whatever other fault may exist because the conversation will go like this:

You: I just got a new iPhone *deliberately flashy reveal of shiny thing*
Crowd: AAaauuuuuuuughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh *lake of drool instantly forms*
Annoying Git: Ah but can you install thirteen thousand and one applications on it?
You: No
Annoying Git: See, it's CRAP, mine will let you construct a perpetual mot...
You: (interrupting) but I can touch my music using this object of art they call a user interface.
Crowd: All hail our new lord! Kill the false god!
Annoying Git: My Torso!

Sad but true. On the plus side, as the other handset manufacturers catch up, maybe we'll finally see phones moving on with user interfaces and design that don't just look like something from about five years ago.

Also, just while I think about it, what network are you on that gives you £10 per month (including taxes) for 300 rollover minutes to any country, including foreign mobiles, and 300 texts? I haven't seen anything close to that from the UK networks, £20 seems to be the average starting point and that doesn't include international minutes.

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 09:19 AM
I don't see how being British would mean that you are automatically aware of how far the market has descended at any given time - most people, once every couple of years, ask a few friends what they are paying and then walk into the nearest high-street phone shop and get talked into paying more. And that's it for another two years.

The package I got was from Virgin but there are similar offers from all but one of the UK telcos - you just have to be willing to avoid the retail outlets, have your own unlocked phone and hope on the right deal when you find it.

The typical £20 deal you're talking about is probably more or less the same thing except that you're also paying £5/£10 per month for 18 months for a phone that cost them £30 wholesale; that's what pays for all those lovely suits and hair-gel.

I seriously question your contention that photos are the killer app - all the surveys suggest that it stubbornly remains. People might send a photo or two when they first get the capability but then they forget about it - it certainly hasn't taken off in the way the telcos had hoped. Text messaging - well, far more used then photos, but a surprising number of people never use their bundled texts.

Wi-Fi is nowhere near as useful in UK cities as it is in the US. For some reason, cafe and other location owners didn't see the point of attracting customers with a free service and, instead, signed up to meta-services that involve credit-card sign-up and ridiculous per hour fees. This includes, as you say, Starbucks in the UK, so, we have not developed the same "coffee-shop entrepreneur" culture. What that missed opportunity has done, however, is create a market for 3G data cards because £1 per day of seamless is a better deal than £5 per hour and the bother of signing up at each new location. I know plenty of people who love broadband everywhere, so, I think you're somewhat premature in calling it a flop.

Yes, style is important and that will be a major plus for the iphone but they will find it hard to override the negative whispers if they take a step back from 3G - people might not know the exact difference, but their knowledgeable friends will have write off a 2.5G phone before it even arrives, substantially pricked the hype bubble that the fashionistas need.

Funny, but I'm British and I don't really recognise the country / average user that you're describing here.

The killer apps in the UK are text messaging and photographs. It is very rare indeed that I see someone connecting their laptop via a 3G phone to the net (they're far more likely to go sit in Starbucks and pay for Wi-fi). In fact 3G as a whole has pretty much been a flop in this country so far with the networks struggling to even start to make back the money they've invested in it. They keep introducing new toys to make use of the bandwidth (the latest is Sky television on demand) but the demand just isn't there.

Actually, thinking about it, I was wrong when I said the killer apps were text and photos. Those are certainly two of the main attractions but pale into insignificance when compared to the big 'un: Style. People upgrade their handsets at an incredible rate, often only barely getting to the end of their contract before upgrading. The number of functions a phone has is important, but only for something to throw into pub conversations about how YOUR mobile can control the oxygen supply on the international space station while THEIRS can't even make you a cup of tea when the alarm goes off. The sleeker and 'sexier' the handset, the more that get sold, doubly so if you get a model that looks like a million bucks and happens to be just expensive enough to keep it out of the hands of the great unwashed (remember the RAZR when that first came out?).

Apple is going to succeed in this market, end of story. No-one will care that you can't install third party applications (sorry, no-one who isn't a techie geek like the vast majority of us macrumors posters) or whatever other fault may exist because the conversation will go like this:

You: I just got a new iPhone *deliberately flashy reveal of shiny thing*
Crowd: AAaauuuuuuuughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh *lake of drool instantly forms*
Annoying Git: Ah but can you install thirteen thousand and one applications on it?
You: No
Annoying Git: See, it's CRAP, mine will let you construct a perpetual mot...
You: (interrupting) but I can touch my music using this object of art they call a user interface.
Crowd: All hail our new lord! Kill the false god!
Annoying Git: My Torso!

Sad but true. On the plus side, as the other handset manufacturers catch up, maybe we'll finally see phones moving on with user interfaces and design that don't just look like something from about five years ago.

Also, just while I think about it, what network are you on that gives you £10 per month (including taxes) for 300 rollover minutes to any country, including foreign mobiles, and 300 texts? I haven't seen anything close to that from the UK networks, £20 seems to be the average starting point and that doesn't include international minutes.

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 09:39 AM
Jay, I've noticed before in your responses to what other people write, you often get the wrong end of stick and end up having what amounts to a conversation with yourself.

I was never talking about what most people pay, incorporating the cost of flashy stores and phones loaded with higher-purchase profit margins - did you know, for instance, that the phone salesperson has a 20% margin for negotiated discounts?

My goal was to identify, roughly, what the "real" cost of voice + text is, with all that nonsense stripped out. £10/£15 offers are common and almost always available, regardless of what are you live in and without strings attached. I think you'll find that identifying the lowest possible price for certain things is generally considered a good starting point when trying to guess the price of similar things.

thecritix
Jul 15, 2007, 01:54 PM
I've used O2 before and it's not exactly great in my opinion.

I'm currently on a Vodafone contract which -- as far as I'm aware -- has a much more reliable network.

Even if it IS O2, I'm sure I'd make the switch when my contract is done. If they choose EDGE over 3G it won't be much of a deal-breaker for me, but who has EDGE in UK? Eeek!

orange...
but they're rubbish

if o2 dont drop their data prices I don't think I'll get the iphone, they're an absolute joke, i think it works out about $4 per mb.

whiteboytrash
Jul 15, 2007, 04:09 PM
I sat at a corporate table for the Tour de France in London last weekend and at the table were representatives from T-Mobile and Vodafone and both of them confirmed that their respective companies hadn't won the iPhone deal.... which leaves O2.....

ogun7
Jul 15, 2007, 05:08 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/1A543a Safari/419.3)

I think that O2 is pretty much confirmed for the UK

rob@robburns.co
Jul 15, 2007, 05:17 PM
I think that, whoever they go with, Apple need to recognize that the European market tends to be less price sensitive than the American market but we won't tolerate crippled services as much: we love 3G and using our phones as modems for our laptops, missing features that didn't really bother the American market.

Funny, but I'm British and I don't really recognise the country / average user that you're describing here.

I think its funny because in the week before June 29th there were endless posts from US forum members about how iPhone was never going to fly without 3G: no, no way! Then June 29th arrived, and dead silence from that crowd. I think we'll eventually see 3G on the iPhone. We may even see it in Europe before the US. We may see it by November. But if not, I think you'll see the same success for iPhone in UK as we're seeing in the US right now.

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 05:36 PM
I sat at a corporate table for the Tour de France in London last weekend and at the table were representatives from T-Mobile and Vodafone and both of them confirmed that their respective companies hadn't won the iPhone deal.... which leaves O2.....
Wow, interesting.

How did they feel about that? Did they think Apple had made a mistake in not going with them? Did they confirm the reports that able had been insanely demanding? Any hint of what the real sticking points were?

whiteboytrash
Jul 15, 2007, 05:47 PM
Wow, interesting.

How did they feel about that? Did they think Apple had made a mistake in not going with them? Did they confirm the reports that able had been insanely demanding? Any hint of what the real sticking points were?

Both of them sh*tcanned the iPhone which is understandable.... the Vodafone guy started going on about how great Vodafone LIVE is and that Apple wouldn't allow VF LIVE to appear on the iPhone... I don't know if you've seen Vodafone LIVE but its bad, real bad. They add in about 38 links to get to the football scores because they charge by the MB... so the more you download the better for them... its just stupid...... the Vodafone guy then started going on how great Nokia is and showed me his N95 (thats the new one yeh ? with GPS)... he shows me the GPS which of course didn't work because we were inside a hotel ! then he showed me web browsing and how he would select the part of the page he wanted to view to have it magnified on the screen... it was woeful... I told him I hadn't seen the iPhone but wouldn't that be easier with your finger ? and not to keep having to leave the page your browsing to move the field of view across ? He thought not..... so it appeared both T-Mobile and Vodafone lost on charges (as in per MB) and wanting their own krap on the phone.......

Donnacha
Jul 15, 2007, 06:25 PM
Wow, thanks WBT, that's the closest think we've had to real info in this thread so far.

It's always breath-taking when you come guys who, in the interests of their careers, have had to brainwash themselves to actually believe that whatever crap their boss wants to foist on the public is actually the best technology. It's like talking to an evangelical Christian - it simply doesn't matter what you say or how patently ridiculous their claims are, it's like they're hypnotized.

mpw
Jul 16, 2007, 07:55 AM
...It's always breath-taking when you come guys who, in the interests of their careers, have had to brainwash themselves to actually believe that whatever crap their boss wants to foist on the public is actually the best technology...
You're talking about the iPhone fans right?:p

Donnacha
Jul 16, 2007, 08:03 AM
You're talking about the iPhone fans right?:p
Perhaps!

Perhaps all of us Mac users are deluded too, denying ourselves the greater efficiency and stability of the Windows platform :D

Compile 'em all
Jul 16, 2007, 09:35 AM
I sat at a corporate table for the Tour de France in London last weekend and at the table were representatives from T-Mobile and Vodafone and both of them confirmed that their respective companies hadn't won the iPhone deal.... which leaves O2.....

Does this apply to other European countries as well? For example, T-Mobile, vodafone and o2 exist in Germany too. And there were rumors that T-Mobile got the contract there. Is it possible that T-Mobile might carry the iPhone in Germany but not in the UK?

whiteboytrash
Jul 16, 2007, 12:02 PM
Does this apply to other European countries as well? For example, T-Mobile, vodafone and o2 exist in Germany too. And there were rumors that T-Mobile got the contract there. Is it possible that T-Mobile might carry the iPhone in Germany but not in the UK?

What I didn't mention that these were relative senior guys..... it was an 800 pound per seat lunch..... so not just anyone was going to be sitting there..... they were only talking of the UK and not Europe..... O2 is fairly strong in Europe through the Orange arm and have a good presence in eastern Europe which apple see as a key to growth.... look into the Russian market if you want to see what mobiles have done to that country.... they love it...... another key about the Eastern European market is their infrastructure.... basically eastern european countries built their modern day phone and mobile networks from 1991 onwards... therefore they don't have the issues of backward capability and merging networks etc. In addition you have very progressive thinking parliaments... look at Estonia... the average age of politicians is 27 !!! These countries are 4-5 years ahead of the UK and US in terms of mobile infrastructure....

Anyway off track..... so in short they confirmed that they didn't win the deal for the UK only..........

210
Jul 16, 2007, 12:40 PM
Those figures are interesting to see how many people have already left their existing network. I presume these are people who either terminated their contract early or their contract had expired. It would be interesting to see how many more will convert after a period of time when other people's contract is up.

As I'm in the UK using Orange, it's a bit annoying that it has gone to O2, but I'm not that bothered except that my contact is up in January. Orange have been OK so far, but they did annoy me when they wanted £300 to upgrade my 'phone for any other 'phone (even pay as you go 'phones which are a fraction of the price) and I had never upgraded before and my existing 'phone wouldn't work any more. That and also they keep dropping my calls all the time, it seems. I checked out O2's site and their prices seem a lot more reasonable than Orange's.

Not that I am going to do it but I am curious, how much does Orange charge to leave them before the contract has expired?

Stetwin
Jul 16, 2007, 05:14 PM
Shame to see it go to O2 because i'm on T-Mobile (with 1/2 price contract for life) so wouldn't move just for the iPhone but i really really really want one :'(

How big is O2 anyway? i know T-Mobile is the 6th biggest in the world with 100+ million subscribers so O2 must be bigger then that for Apple to run with them

lucab1982
Jul 16, 2007, 05:38 PM
I am refering to the English adverts for vodaphone with the English football player, it kinda killed Scotish support for vodaphone. Why advertish a English nobody to sell phones in Scotland. It really put me of them as did there logo. O2 is fine there nice and simple never needed any support form them because they work. And Orange im used to because i used it in Thailand, France, and Scotland.

I think Apple will have a BIG say in how the winner of the UK use the iPhone in marketing, Apple will do everything to protect their image and sticking Michael Owen next to the iPhone just won't work.

Chimaera
Jul 17, 2007, 04:31 AM
O2 huh? Well thats *another* nail in the coffin of the idea of me ever getting an iPhone - I just left them after 5 years after the service quality dropped through the floor, plus the data rates are *hideous* - on T-Mobile I pay the same amount of money for the same credit, but also get 3gig of data at up to HSDPA speeds.

GilGrissom
Jul 17, 2007, 10:52 AM
I received a phone call from a friend who has a relative with Orange as one of his clients currently. He seems completely adamant that it definitely is O2 to get the iPhone in the UK and that they are set to release it at Christmas time.

He also gave me some other pretty specific details, such as pricing.

iPhone to cost £150-£200
Minimal 18 month contract (baring in mind we don't get 2 year contracts...yet...in the UK, but do get a lot of 18 months now)
Contract prices £55-£75

Take this with a pinch of salt if you want, by all means, I thought I'd just pass on the information I was given.

I guess the pricing could change at the last minute, and probably will.

I popped into my local O2 store today to chat to the people there to see if they've heard anything from the grape vine, (not that they can tell me, but always worth a shot!) The guy wouldn't confirm O2 definitely have it and said that Vodafone are still in it, but said that O2 would be releasing it at Christmas, if they did confirm it that is. He had no ideas on pricing though.

xUKHCx
Jul 17, 2007, 11:05 AM
If it were at those prices then i would definitly pick one up but the contract price is way too high, translate that into to dollars $110-150. I think it would be more like £30-£55.

GilGrissom
Jul 17, 2007, 11:09 AM
Yes the iPhone prices do seem fairly tastey to be honest, but maybe the contract makes up for it. O2 seem to be reluctant to do unlimited Internet on their contracts like T-Mobile do and Vodafone seem to be starting to do partly, so maybe the high price is from O2 which gives you unlimited Internet.

Apple do take earnings from the monthly contract, so maybe a high priced contract means the iPhone is slightly more cheaper.

As I say, pricings will probably change, but my source seemed adamant that these were the current details as it stands.

Yankees 4 Life
Jul 17, 2007, 02:50 PM
thank god it was confirmed by some spanish paper yesterday that it would be coming via 02! lets hope that they dont screw this one up and somehow not give the europeans 3g. it would be a travesty cuz there are some americans who have been clamoring for it.... I still love my iPhone anyways..

SayCheese
Jul 17, 2007, 05:25 PM
O2 huh? Well thats *another* nail in the coffin of the idea of me ever getting an iPhone - I just left them after 5 years after the service quality dropped through the floor

I agree with you. If the contract has gone to O2 then it is probably the worst decision that Apple could have made.
Their rates are steep, the service is poor in the best part and the staff in my local shop really couldn't appear less interested if they tried. Add into that the fact that I can't get a signal at home, one place where I need it a lot and it means that I am going to have to think very long and very hard about how much I really want an iPhone.

Oh and on a seperate note, when are we going to get an announcement on who the contract went with? Are we ever going to hear anything????

Come on Apple, we are waiting over this side of the pond.......

mpw
Jul 17, 2007, 05:52 PM
...probably the worst decision that Apple could have made.
Their rates are steep...
But steep rates are good for Apple as they're taking a cut.
...the service is poor in the best part and the staff in my local shop really couldn't appear less interested if they tried...
Apple won't care 'casue they know people will buy it anyway on hype alone.

GilGrissom
Jul 18, 2007, 02:24 AM
But steep rates are good for Apple as they're taking a cut.

Apple won't care 'casue they know people will buy it anyway on hype alone.
This is true. Personally my service has been great with O2, with the other networks in my area falling short with my other friends etc. When it comes to steep prices, you just have to know how to handle them. I've never paid full rates for my contract for years. I have a £55 for about £40.

Personally I think O2 need the iPhone, and ofcourse I hope they get it as I am with O2...

tomoisyourgod
Jul 18, 2007, 03:56 AM
My experience of 02 ain't good - takes ages to send text messages, reception is terrible when you leave a built up area....

I'm really not happy it's gonna be on 02... don't like that company...

TheChillPill
Jul 18, 2007, 04:24 AM
In terms of the carrier, I doubt the UK market will be unanimous in applause of whoever it goes to - each area of the country appears to have varied degrees of reception for each carrier. For example, where I live o2 are by far the best for reception, whereas T-Mobile have a horrendous reception. My parents 100 miles away experience the exact opposite.

It's a shame really that the iPhone has to be tied to a carrier at all - and personally I could quite happily do without visual voicemail. Leave it sim-free and let consumers pick their own carrier - the carriers will soon enough bring out plans that attract iPhone users, and competition among the carriers is never a bad thing.

Finally, if the carriers brought out a PAYG plan with data, the iPhone would fly off the shelves over here.

GilGrissom
Jul 18, 2007, 04:43 AM
You know what TheChillPill? I think you're right.

Personally I have this feeling that the iPhone won't quite be the same hit immediately that it is in the US. We're a little more fussy and hard to please at times...other times a little slow to catch on to the new phones. Generally I think we see phones differently, at least in some way. Don't get me wrong, I think it will still be a success over here, but it may take a little longer, or perhaps not the same overwhelming success it appears to have in the grand scale of things in the US. This make sense to anyone, or am I just talking crazy?!

Opening it up would be great...it's what US people wanted as well...but for now with it being a G1 device, we have to put up with 1 carrier.

mpw
Jul 18, 2007, 06:25 AM
Y...but for now with it being a G1 device, we have to put up with 1 carrier.
It'll be interesting to see if the Office of Fair Trading have anything to say on the subject. Apple will have found that the market in Europe is very different to that in the US, in fact it differs across Europe country by country. Here they won't be able to offer anything longer than 12month contracts, in Belgium I believe it's 6months.

xUKHCx
Jul 18, 2007, 06:29 AM
It'll be interesting to see if the Office of Fair Trading have anything to say on the subject. Apple will have found that the market in Europe is very different to that in the US, in fact it differs across Europe country by country. Here they won't be able to offer anything longer than 12month contracts, in Belgium I believe it's 6months.

Well there is an increasing trend to sign up for 18 months contracts but still generally people only want yearly ones. I would sign up for 18 months if it meant I could get the iPhone (maybe a little cheaper but that is not apples way)

GilGrissom
Jul 18, 2007, 08:40 AM
Well there is an increasing trend to sign up for 18 months contracts but still generally people only want yearly ones. I would sign up for 18 months if it meant I could get the iPhone (maybe a little cheaper but that is not apples way)

I was in the mind never to go with an 18 month contract, but it certainly is the way all contracts seem to be going in the UK at the moment, unless you're willing to pay more for the same thing just to stay on 12 months.

I am however on an 18 month contract now, as I had to make 1 concession when dealing with O2 and getting my current contract deal and phone, it saves me in the long run and gives me more bargaining power against them in the long run I guess. If you speak to O2 right, they will usually do something for you for customer loyalty, and not just the "off the shelf" offers, so to speak.

I hope it does go to multiple carriers, but while Apple demands revenue etc I doubt that will happen. Who knows though, maybe Apple will change their demands slightly after they see how things pan out in the US...given that, as mpw said, the Europe and UK markets are very different, they need to do their homework here.

Leemo
Jul 18, 2007, 09:05 AM
I received a phone call from a friend who has a relative with Orange as one of his clients currently. He seems completely adamant that it definitely is O2 to get the iPhone in the UK and that they are set to release it at Christmas time.

He also gave me some other pretty specific details, such as pricing.

iPhone to cost £150-£200
Minimal 18 month contract (baring in mind we don't get 2 year contracts...yet...in the UK, but do get a lot of 18 months now)
Contract prices £55-£75

Take this with a pinch of salt if you want, by all means, I thought I'd just pass on the information I was given.

I guess the pricing could change at the last minute, and probably will.

I popped into my local O2 store today to chat to the people there to see if they've heard anything from the grape vine, (not that they can tell me, but always worth a shot!) The guy wouldn't confirm O2 definitely have it and said that Vodafone are still in it, but said that O2 would be releasing it at Christmas, if they did confirm it that is. He had no ideas on pricing though.

Working for o2 I can say that we already offer 24 month contracts that give you extra money off the line rental - it was introduced a month or so ago.

With regards to staff knowing about the iPhone - the guy in the store is just pulling that information out of nowhere. As a network we barely know what phones are coming out in a week's time - very little information is communicated to store staff. Also an internal memo was released two weeks ago highlighting that o2's supposed 'contract' with Apple was still a rumour and nothing has been agreed - and that store staff should say that to customers and be honest and open about it.

From a network perspective I find o2 to be the best for my area in terms of reception. Service-wise all the networks are as bad as each other, o2 being just as bad as the others - but data rates are going to be changing shortly to include unlimited browsing for a set fee. Wish I knew what that fee was! I would imagine around £15 based on what their recent bolt-on charges have changed to, but that still doesn't beat T-Mobile's £7.50 a month.

Moral of the story? Retail people know sod all about the iPhone. Don't believe anything they say, they'll be the last to know.

-Leemo

mpw
Jul 18, 2007, 09:49 AM
btw my comment about not offering contracts of two years wasn't a trend thing. Telcos. here (Jersey) aren't allowed buy law to tie you in for more than 12months, and like I said that's a legal limit in Belgium of 6months I've been told.

GilGrissom
Jul 18, 2007, 10:25 AM
Ye I figured the O2 employee wouldn't know much, the only thing he told me was that if they do get it they're hoping for a Christmas release.

The phone call from my friend prompted me to pop in and ask anyway.

If you look here: http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/18/expansys-uk-offering-unlocked-iphone/ (http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/18/expansys-uk-offering-unlocked-iphone/), Engadget just posted that Expansys UK had a page up on the iPhone saying it was SIM-free...obviously it's changed already and this is almost completely certainly just a typo, as they sell a lot of SIM-free phones, it was probably just normal procedure, until someone realised that it was wrong. But worth noting anyway, incase you guys haven't already seen it.

OllyW
Jul 20, 2007, 02:43 AM
Some views on the iPhone from Vodafone (http://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itunes/news/index.cfm?newsid=18590)

Lack of 3G is a "concern".

GilGrissom
Jul 20, 2007, 03:37 AM
The only thing that concerns me is, would Apple really release a 3G iPhone so soon after releasing a none-3G iPhone in the US?

If Apple felt that strongly about the limitations with the 3G chip, would they risk the integrity of the entire device to make the operators happy? (understanding that without the operators it won't sell unless its SIM free obviously).

If release was around Christmas or early New Year, maybe it will be a 3G one if newer 3G chips can be built, which apparently is underway as I understand it, to make them smaller and less power hungry, solving Apple's concerns.

I just think there is going to be a lot of disgruntled US iPhone users if Apple do a 3G version so soon.

Realistically I think it will be Christmas at the absolute earliest, may even fall back until they can do a full 3G phone for everyone, but then again the phone industry is moving very fast all the time...it would be nearly a year then since the iPhone was around and all it's gained is 3G??

If Apple wait too long, it would make you think if they would simply wait until iPhone v2 comes out for everyone until Europe get it...as timing is important. Seems to get rather complicated!

Tobsen
Jul 20, 2007, 06:00 AM
Tataa: http://www.t-mobile.de/T-D1/img/display_image/0,3465,96201,00.jpg

From: http://www.freymartin.de/de/blog/archiv/2007/07/20/iPhone_bereits_in_T-Mobile_Bilddatenbank

GilGrissom
Jul 20, 2007, 06:29 AM
Tataa: http://www.t-mobile.de/T-D1/img/display_image/0,3465,96201,00.jpg

From: http://www.freymartin.de/de/blog/archiv/2007/07/20/iPhone_bereits_in_T-Mobile_Bilddatenbank
Very interesting, not the first time T-Mobile Germany has slipped on it's site. Still could be early thinking, but a nice find all the same. At least these things are adding to the same picture and not confusing it anymore.

Stetwin
Jul 21, 2007, 05:51 AM
Very interesting, not the first time T-Mobile Germany has slipped on it's site. Still could be early thinking, but a nice find all the same. At least these things are adding to the same picture and not confusing it anymore.

I'm still confused.....

askripko
Jul 23, 2007, 03:04 PM
In February the largest cellular carrier of Europe Vodafone has made friends with Google, that has called splash in hearings about the future iPhone retailer. But one of these days Vodafone has declared, that Europe is not America and spoilt europeans wants all or nothing… So iPhone’s sales can stop therefore … that in it 3G is absent. The head of company Arun Sarin says, that even EDGE - is yesterday, speed is supposedly too small. Thus Vodafone has hinted Apple about possible “cooperation”.