Computer Science Degree [Archive]

NavyIntel007

Jul 23, 2003, 09:46 PM

A Computer Science degree will open a lot of doors for you. I major in CompSci and am getting commissioned as an Intelligence officer in the Navy. At Miami, they've just started to branch off the degree into different fields. I think some are general, game design, databases, cryptology...

It's a good major if you want something technical for your Bachelors but don't want to get raped by something like Engineering.

Not only that but for grad school in an MBA program the degrees compliment each other pretty well. Also law. If you're interested in Law, you could make a play to be a rare software copyright lawyer.

Possibilities are endless my friend, any other questions, don't hesitate to PM or IM me... :cool:

Billicus

Jul 23, 2003, 09:53 PM

What kind of occupations require degrees in Computer Science outside of the Armed Forces? I know you mentioned Software Copywrite Lawyer as one, but what could I do if I only had a degree in Computer Science itself?

rainman::|:|

Jul 23, 2003, 09:54 PM

computer science isn't bad, but it's certainly not what it used to be... there's an influx of people graduating that went into cs after the dot com boom, and they're flooding the market-- that can only get worse with time, as each year's graduates come out. But a specialized degree in something up and coming, like nanotechnology or other research fields, is a good way to hedge your bets... Sure the field could fold, but more likely it will skyrocket, leaving you square in the middle of things...

a lot of my friends went into computer science, but the last time i spoke to them, only one was still in that general area at all... and even he specialized in engineering...

pnw

janey

Jul 23, 2003, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Billicus
What kind of occupations require degrees in Computer Science outside of the Armed Forces? I know you mentioned Software Copywrite Lawyer as one, but what could I do if I only had a degree in Computer Science itself?
name anything! seriously!
how about this nice job: OS X Software Engineering Generalist/Debugger (https://jobs.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Employment.woa/1/wo/27EMvNycwPNRy62B9Z2fPw/8.2.22.9.2.0.1.3)
among the requirements: BS in Computer Science or equivalent

bbarnhart

Jul 23, 2003, 10:29 PM

If you had the choice between earning a CS degree or a CIS degree, the CS degree is more prestigious. Most large firms have a need for both.

BTW if you don't already code by your senior year in high school, don't bother with a CS degree. You probably won't like programming and you probably won't be good at programming. Maybe a CIS degree is for you.

Also a business degree combined with a CIS degree would be considered a bonus.

zimv20

Jul 23, 2003, 10:55 PM

CS is still a young field and programs vary across schools. it's difficult to talk about the value of a CS degree w/o knowing anything about the program providing that degree.

e.g. i got my CS degree from Purdue in '88. at that time (and it may still be that way), it was very much a math degree and i didn't do a lot of programming (though i was and am still a skilled programmer).

most of my work in the s/w industry was more engineering-like. though i almost never directly applied my CS teachings, it served as a great foundation.

i know some programs teach a bunch of languages and call that a CS degree. is that worthwhile? you'll have to answer that for yourself.

most of the people i've worked w/ do not have CS degrees. and i must admit i had issues w/ forestry and history majors working on critical s/w systems. most were not up to the task.

if you can figure out what you want to do, you can find a program tailored to that. short of that, a CS degree from a good school would probably provide a good base from which to decide later.

Doctor Q

Jul 23, 2003, 10:59 PM

What you learn in college about Computer Science will give you both a general understanding of the theory and practice of the field, and also plenty of practical skills in a number of areas: programming, networking, hardware, applications, information theory, database systems, etc. Because the field advances so rapidly, the specific skills you pick up will last some years, but not for the length of a career. It's the general understanding of the field that will be beneficial in the long run.

You will be continuously learning in this field, so your "practical skills" will be only the starting set for your career. If you like learning (like me), it's an exciting major that can lead to careers in countless areas. If, instead, you want to build a resume and "retire" to a permanent job, I think Computer Science is the wrong major.

Many of the computer-related jobs these days didn't exist at all 10 years ago. Before the World Wide Web, there were no web designers or webmasters. Who knows what new jobs will appear along with the next wave of technology?

And keep in mind that programming is only one aspect of Computer Science. I know plenty of people in the field who don't know (or remember) a thing about programming, and they keep plenty busy!

G4scott

Jul 23, 2003, 11:33 PM

I don't do hardcore programming yet, and I just graduated from high school. I'm going to be in the college of natural sciences at the University of Texas in Austin to study Computer Science...

I've been trying to get acquainted with the syntax of java, and some other languages... I've been probing around the Apple Developer Tools stuff for documentation and tutorials...

I got hooked on programming, and making computers do what I want them to in 7th grade with a TI graphing calculator. I just loved programming the calculator to make games, or useful math programs and stuff...

I even made a cheap 3d maze...

bbarnhart

Jul 23, 2003, 11:43 PM

The market where you will be living after you graduate is important. I hear that it's hard to find a programming job in some parts of the county.

If you are going for the programming degree, like some other people here have said, it's not the actual programming language thats important, it is the theory behind it. It's not about C, Java or ATL. It's about a multi-threaded app or an app that reads and writes to a database or how do you send data from one process to another process. Programming languages just allow you to do all of those things.

I graduated from college in 1992. I took 3 credits in COBOL (that is very useful now, not really) and a one credit C course. The theory classes (discrete structures & algorithms) were taught assuming you new Pascal or Modula-2.

Also, keep in mind that you will probably be a Windows programmer. So you will need to know MFC, ATL and perhaps .net and C# if those ever get off the ground. These API sets are another layer. Then there is the API that your future employer has.

bbarnhart

Jul 23, 2003, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by G4scott

I got hooked on programming, and making computers do what I want them to in 7th grade with a TI graphing calculator. I just loved programming the calculator to make games, or useful math programs and stuff...

I even made a cheap 3d maze...

If you are thinking about a CS degree you need to make sure that the stuff in bold above sounds exciting and fun. If you think that it sounds boring and dorky and you'd rather be d/l MP3's then you don't want a CS degree.

janey

Jul 24, 2003, 12:13 AM

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by übergeek
ergh...egads...what if i like coding but i hate it if someone pays me to do it?

it's not nearly as good as you make it sound.

developing s/w has so many more things going on than programming. at once you've got to be an engineer, a psychologist, a babysitter, a handholder, a writer, a logician, a magician, a manager and a salesman.

aside from doing the things that surround coding -- architecting, designing, testing, prototyping, documenting, installing again and again and again and again...

... you've also got to manage all the personalities, fears and insecurities of those around you. people fear change. they fear technology. they fear the unknown.

i spent very little time programming. in the lifecycle, a lot of time is spent testing.

but what takes up a crapload of time is stuff like:
- calming down managers
- translating what users say they need to what they actually need
- fighting w/ vendors
- trying to get different vendor s/w to work w/ each other
- negotiating scheduling (hint: double any time estimate a manager gives you)
- working out the logistics of the various environments (development, testing, deploying)
- documenting
- training everyone around you
- fighting fires
- constantly reminding everyone why the path taken was chosen
- constantly explaining why a proposed shortcut won't actually help the project
- constantly telling management why you're behind on the schedule they made and you never really agreed with
- being dragged off to another pointless meeting just when you started making progress
- answering the same questions over and over and over

and if you think you can get away w/ being a simple coder, you'll soon realize that you need to move up to design, because so few people are actually good at it. then you'll move up to architect, manager, etc. and code less and less.

there's a taste for you. it's not like this for everyone. but it is like this for a lot of people who prove to be valuable. anyone else working in the industry experience some or all of this?

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 12:48 AM

fwiw, that was my experience working on large integration projects w/ lots o' custom coding (the kind that involves from 8-100 developers and takes years). i worked on many such projects during 11+ years in the industry.

of course, not all projects are like this, so ymmv.

jefhatfield

Jul 24, 2003, 01:14 AM

the field is a rollercoaster ride from hell

jefhatfield

Jul 24, 2003, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by zimv20
CS is still a young field and programs vary across schools. it's difficult to talk about the value of a CS degree w/o knowing anything about the program providing that degree.

e.g. i got my CS degree from Purdue in '88. at that time (and it may still be that way), it was very much a math degree and i didn't do a lot of programming (though i was and am still a skilled programmer).

i know a man who got his master's in computer science from MIT and his PhD from Stanford and for some reason, he thinks that there was not a lot of math in his cs studies...and for some reason, he thinks cs is a really old field and old degree and that everybody had it going from the 1950s

i know his assessment is way off since everybody i have met from the past who was in the computer field says basically the same things you do

when i mention programming, he says computer science has little to do with that:confused:

Abstract

Jul 24, 2003, 01:36 AM

All I have to say is this: people will always use computers. (duh!!!) ;) The field sucks right now, but things will pick up. A CS degree, like any degree, exists to build a foundation. They give you the skills to learn later while on the job. That's where alot of the real learning takes place.

Programming is a tool. That is all. What you can produce with your knowledge in programming is what is important. Its analogous to me telling you that everybody knows how to write, but we can't all be writers because not all of us can make full use of the skills we have. Lots of people can program. I can program (poorly). But can I do anything productive with my understanding in programming? Pffffft, no. I'm a Medical Physics major. I don't have to worry about computers, per se.

Also, consider Software Engineering. Again, this is one of those degrees that will not directly apply anything you learn in school during your employment. However, you use your skills for other things that you don't learn in school. You learn to do it on the job, and alot of it may be business-related or something. You never know.

Doctor Q

Jul 24, 2003, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by zimv20
developing s/w has so many more things going on than programming. at once you've got to be an engineer, a psychologist, a babysitter, a handholder, a writer, a logician, a magician, a manager and a salesman.You forgot the most important one: detective! Debugging is part of the work of a programmer and, if you have the right frame of mind, part of the fun. When you put on your Sherlock Holmes hat and try to find out why what you told the computer to do is not what you meant to tell the computer to do, it's your job to test evidence and eliminate suspects until you find the culprit.

Is wrestling your errant program into submission different than beating the computer at chess? Well, yes, but both can be rewarding when you feel the accomplishment of using your brainpower to solve the logical puzzles involved.

As zimv20 points out, there are a lot of tasks for a programmer. Whether you enjoy, tolerate, or can't put up with them depends on your personality. If you have to "fight fires", remember that you once wanted to be a fireman when you grew up. Call it "showing off" instead of "documenting" and it might not seem so dreadful. If you are "answering the same questions over and over and over", isn't that what a teacher does?

My point is not that programming is the perfect profession. It's that it can be for those it suits.

In the current U.S. job market, overseas programmers have made it hard to find a well-paying programming job without special skills such as database administration, network engineering, or team management abilities. Or just lots of experience.

übergeek says "what if i like coding but i hate it if someone pays me to do it?", which brings up another aspect. If you have enough programming talent and a great idea or two, you don't have to work for anyone. Find a niche, build the best software mousetrap, and maybe you'll be the next self-made billionaire.

jefhatfield

Jul 24, 2003, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by Doctor Q

In the current U.S. job market, overseas programmers have made it hard to find a well-paying programming job without special skills such as database administration, network engineering, or team management abilities. Or just lots of experience.

i think that network engineering will be the next field to be lost to the third world IT workers

just like the textile field was lost to the third world in the past century, this century will have us computer jobs go more and more overseas...computers and programming are a skill that is not particularly intellectual and can be taught to third world people at a low cost

a skill such as being an expert us historian, PhD marine biologist, or biomedical engineer is not something the third world is likely to produce and take jobs away from the usa

there will be a time in the future when the usa will not be any more educated than anybody else and the whole world will have unbelievable access to all information...the days of the usa being a world leader are prolly numbered and all large and powerful empires fall sometime

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by jefhatfield

when i mention programming, he says computer science has little to do with that:confused:

depends on the def'n of CS. i would tend to agree w/ your friend, but i come from a program where that's true.

i learned about statistical analysis, OS design, compiler design, the theory of computability, FFT, algorithm analysis, micrologic, AI, NLP, et. al.

many class assignments involved programming, but only a handful classes, all at the lower level, taught programming.

again, a lot of math theory.

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
You forgot the most important one: detective! Debugging is part of the work of a programmer

ahhhhh, debugging. yes, with a good debugger, it can be fun. programming, too.

that's one of those things that "surround coding." sadly, there's far too little of that and far too much of the external stuff -- especially that which isn't supposed to be a part of the development process.

i left that part of the industry in '99. these days i do some easy PT work as an admin. funny how many of the same "fear" issues pop up.

jefhatfield

Jul 24, 2003, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by zimv20
depends on the def'n of CS. i would tend to agree w/ your friend, but i come from a program where that's true.

i learned about statistical analysis, OS design, compiler design, the theory of computability, FFT, algorithm analysis, micrologic, AI, NLP, et. al.

many class assignments involved programming, but only a handful classes, all at the lower level, taught programming.

again, a lot of math theory.

well that's cool

i plan on my PhD in network engineering/computer engineering at the extended university program, or a master's if that is too hard or time consuming...my college wants me to teach networking as more than an adjunct or teacher's aid/pet, so i need an advanced cs related degree

the only bummer is that the networking field is down right now and there are a lot of networkers out of work after the silicon valley meltdown and dot.com bust...things will get better herer...maybe next year, maybe next decade...but it's almost a predictable cycle...the question is who is the predictor who will be accurate this time?

sometimes i wish i was a cook than in the IT field...people always need to eat:p

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by jefhatfield

sometimes i wish i was a cook than in the IT field...people always need to eat:p

i switched to acting and writing. people always need to be entertained, too. :-)

jefhatfield

Jul 24, 2003, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by zimv20
i switched to acting and writing. people always need to be entertained, too. :-)

man, if i had any talent in acting or writing, i would leave the computer behind forever

...except i would still log into macrumors every day;)

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by jefhatfield
man, if i had any talent in acting or writing, i would leave the computer behind forever

my life is 1000x better. had to take that 100% pay cut, though :-)

jefhatfield

Jul 24, 2003, 02:29 AM

Originally posted by zimv20
my life is 1000x better. had to take that 100% pay cut, though :-)

i am glad that you are happier

i have only been involved in computers since 99 and from very early on, i realized that the field is a major drag most of the time

i did have a creative side...sort of...i was a singer in a band from 95-98, and the 15 years prior to that i was in rock bands mostly as a guitarist...the field did not pay anything so it was mostly a hobby...when it stopped being fun, i left it behind and i have no regrets

what type of stuff do you write?

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 02:46 AM

Originally posted by jefhatfield

what type of stuff do you write?

mostly comedy. finishing a play now. also write essays, some political.

the theater i'm in has me down for writing on 6 or so projects this year.

stinks that it's so hard to earn a living in the arts. playing guitar is a lot more fun than programming.

jefhatfield

Jul 24, 2003, 02:52 AM

Originally posted by zimv20
mostly comedy. finishing a play now. also write essays, some political.

the theater i'm in has me down for writing on 6 or so projects this year.

stinks that it's so hard to earn a living in the arts. playing guitar is a lot more fun than programming.

guitar used to be such a rush, but it started to become repetitive when it came to rehearsing and playing the same songs at gigs or recording sessions

it's fun to play a song once at a party or jam session at a person's house and just improvise, but that same loose vibe doesn't exist when it has to sound palatable for the listening audience...i like the beatle's outtakes when they were just goofing around in the studio and i think some of their best stuff were the trashed outtakes

is your writing available online?

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by jefhatfield
guitar used to be such a rush, but it started to become repetitive when it came to rehearsing and playing the same songs at gigs or recording sessions

are you a songwriter?

is your writing available online?

nope. at least not that i know of :-)

Doctor Q

Jul 24, 2003, 02:59 PM

How 'bout a career in home computer networking? If you start a company in a metropolitan area where you drive around setting up people's home networks, you might find plenty of potential customers. The middle class is moving from the one-computer-per-household days into the one-computer-per-person days, so there should be a growing demand, and overseas help desks can't beat your friendly neighborhood serviceperson. Of course, Apple makes networking too easy, so people might be able to get along with you. Darn that Apple, they spoiled another promising career idea!

Billicus

Jul 24, 2003, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
How 'bout a career in home computer networking? If you start a company in a metropolitan area where you drive around setting up people's home networks, you might find plenty of potential customers. The middle class is moving from the one-computer-per-household days into the one-computer-per-person days, so there should be a growing demand, and overseas help desks can't beat your friendly neighborhood serviceperson. Of course, Apple makes networking too easy, so people might be able to get along with you. Darn that Apple, they spoiled another promising career idea!

I do think people would pay if they knew they had somebody that knew what they were doing though.

jxyama

Jul 24, 2003, 03:30 PM

super simplification:

computer science =~ math

c.i.s =~ business

Doctor Q

Jul 24, 2003, 03:33 PM

I've got a hardwired Cat-5 Ethernet network at home. I help neighbors and friends with computer shopping, hardware and software setup, troubleshooting, etc., but when it was time to run those cables under the house, I hired somebody. There might be bugs or monsters or aliens down there!

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
The middle class is moving from the one-computer-per-household days into the one-computer-per-person days, so there should be a growing demand

nuts. right now i give away that help for free ('cept for my biz client).

i have trouble charging friends who are poorer than me. and -- i don't run cables.

bbarnhart

Jul 24, 2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
I've got a hardwired Cat-5 Ethernet network at home. I help neighbors and friends with computer shopping, hardware and software setup, troubleshooting, etc., but when it was time to run those cables under the house, I hired somebody. There might be bugs or monsters or aliens down there!

When we built a new house three years ago, I ran 3 cat5 cables to every room in the house with several rooms getting another set of three on a different wall (I also ran a ton a cable for our satellite). After we moved in we wanted a notebook for my wife and got her an iBook with AirPort.

So far I guess it has been a waste (because of WiFi), but our oldest daughter is wanting a computer upstairs in the playroom and it will be a cinch to hook it up.

Billicus

Jul 24, 2003, 07:11 PM

So what degree would I want to get if I was interested in Networking moreso than application programming? Computer Network Systems or Computer Information Systems? Which one would I want to look at?

Doctor Q

Jul 24, 2003, 07:37 PM

Computer Network Systems sounds more specialized, but I can't really tell without more details. Can you post the titles of the classes you might take for these majors? Or say which college you have in mind so I can peek at their class catalog?

Billicus

Jul 24, 2003, 08:00 PM

I've been looking at UNI (http://www.uni.edu) or Wartburg. (http://www.wartburg.edu) Thanks for all the help.

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Billicus
So what degree would I want to get if I was interested in Networking moreso than application programming? Computer Network Systems or Computer Information Systems? Which one would I want to look at?

my honest opinion....

go get a degree in history, or music, or philosophy, whatever interests you. most of the guys i know who do networking don't have a degree in it -- it's not that hard to learn.

the best gift you can give yourself is a well-rounded classical education.

edit:

let me put it this way: which do you want -- to get an education or to learn a trade?

ozubahn

Jul 24, 2003, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by zimv20

the best gift you can give yourself is a well-rounded classical education.

This is true, but I don't believe it needs to be classical as long as it is well-rounded. Getting raped by engineering, as it was put earlier, is a good way to gain competency in a broad range of fields. Playwriting and music are not among those fields, however, so you do have to make a choice. :)

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by ozubahn
Playwriting and music are not among those fields, however, so you do have to make a choice. :)

!!!

though my degree's in CS, i spent most of today working on my play and a song i'm writing.

i'm not making that up.

ozubahn

Jul 24, 2003, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by zimv20
!!!

I know you aren't making it up. I'm not saying that a technical education and classical pursuits are mutually exclusive, just that one shouldn't count on the former as good preparation for the latter. :) I've thought about this question before, wondering if a technical education provides a good background for artistic efforts, and it is not clear. There are certainly people like Thomas Pynchon, whose technical backgrounds are critical to the art, but I tend to think of them as exceptions. At my engineering-heavy school, I noticed that there were a lot more artists in my freshman class than in my senior class. What do you think? Your CS education obviously isn't hindering your pursuits, but is it helping them?

anubis

Jul 24, 2003, 11:23 PM

Before the dot-com burst of the late nineties, most universities and colleges had maximum enrollment in computer science courses - every seat was taken. However, these days, enrollment has dropped dramatically. At my university, the freshman CS classes had an enrollment of roughly 700 students each in the late 90s. Now that number is down to about 140. Most of my friends who are computer science majors are having a difficult time finding jobs, and jobs they do find are relatively low paying.

Most students these days (myself included) are turning to electrical engineering, because it offers curriculum which is both very broad and deep. Electrical engineering prepares graduates for work in many fields. Some of my electrical engineering friends have found very well-paying jobs in biotechnology, industrial operations, aerospace, as well as traditional computer companies.

Electrical Engineering curriclum is very rigerous. At my university, you can't really take any meaningful electrical engineering courses without having finished Calculus 1,2 and 3, and Differential Equations. We must also take vector principles, complex variables, stats, fourier series and boundary value problems, as well as other math electives.

I had an on-campus job this last year as a computer support assistant. There were 3 people working for the CS COG who were computer science majors. There were 3 people working for Math COG who were electrical engineering majors (including myself). 2 of the 3 CS people already had a bachelor's degree, and they were staying to finish their master's degree, because neither one could find jobs. The third switched from nursing to CS and wasn't done with her bachelor's degree yet. 2 out of the 3 EE people got jobs (one with IBM, one with NASA). I am only entering my sophomore year, so I've got a bit to go before I get a real job.

So, although you may hear of CS people getting jobs after they graduate, I think overall, you may have a problem getting a job after you graduate. Maybe in 5-6 years things will change. The problem with CS is that the cirriculum you cover is relatively narrow. What you might want to look into is Software Engineering. Software Engineering is like turbocharged CS, covering a very broad and deep curriculum of software applications. I think only 19 colleges in the US offer Software Engineering as a major right now, but that is sure to grow very rapidly in the next few years.

Otherwise, I honestly think Electrical and Computer engineering is the way to go. At my university, the computer-related engineering fields you can specialize in include Computer Hardware Engineering, Computer Software Engineering, Computer Architecture, and Digital VLSI (Very Large Scale Integration - that is, the design of computer processors).

Explore all of your options before you commit to a major. You don't want to be stuck with something you won't truely be happy with, or something that won't give you job security after you graduate.

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by ozubahn
Your CS education obviously isn't hindering your pursuits, but is it helping them?

primarily, it's helping them by funding them.

i do use my computer to make music (ProTools, Logic, Reason, etc.) but i would be able to do that stuff w/o my CS background. what's serving me well in the arts is my critical thinking. but i had that going in, it wasn't gained while getting my degree.

so beyond the money, no, it's not really helping. i did get a 4-year degree that included social sciences, language, etc. but i got by w/ the minimum and i wish i'd done more. that would serve me much better as a writer today.

zimv20

Jul 24, 2003, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by anubis

Electrical Engineering curriclum is very rigerous. At my university, you can't really take any meaningful electrical engineering courses without having finished Calculus 1,2 and 3, and Differential Equations. We must also take vector principles, complex variables, stats, fourier series and boundary value problems, as well as other math electives.

that sounds a lot like my CS degree. as i stated above, it's hard to make blanket statements about CS degrees because they vary so widely across schools.

and though your example is illustrative:

2 of the 3 CS people already had a bachelor's degree, and they were staying to finish their master's degree, because neither one could find jobs. [...] 2 out of the 3 EE people got jobs

your sample size is WAY too low to draw any meaningful conclusions. i understand you're happy w/ your EE program, but i'm afraid you're scaring people away from CS w/o enough meaningful data.

Explore all of your options before you commit to a major. You don't want to be stuck with something you won't truely be happy with, or something that won't give you job security after you graduate.

that's good advice. i'd add that it's a good idea to study something that provides a good base (e.g. EE or CS) and not base your decision on what the job market is like today. you need an education which will serve you for 40+ years in the workforce.

Doctor Q

Jul 25, 2003, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Billicus
So what degree would I want to get if I was interested in Networking moreso than application programming? Computer Network Systems or Computer Information Systems? Which one would I want to look at? OK, Billicus, I have some answers, or at least opinions, for you.

Wartburg College

The Computer Science major and the Computer Information Systems major are quite different. They share a couple of C++ programming courses, but then diverge quite clearly.

The CS major covers the practical skills for a technical-oriented person: programming theory and practice, hardware, and math you might use for numerical or game programming. A few electives for the real techie (e.g., graphics) or the theorist (automata and formal languages).

The CIS major covers the business-oriented side of the field: project management, database administration, general management, accounting, some business school courses, and businessperson's math (e.g., statistics).

University of Northern Iowa

Twice as many computer science courses, so a lot of variety to choose from. Three computer science majors: BS in Computer Science, BA in Computer Science, and BA in Computer Information Systems.

For each of the majors, you take 5 techie courses (that's a lot for a CIS major!) and then choose one or two of these speciality areas: Foundations (more programming), Systems (including networking), Software Engineering (how to manage or program big projects), or Information Science (databases and retrieval systems).

Compared to the BA in CS, the BS in CS includes more math and a research project. The CIS major puts more emphasis on the Software Engineering and Information Science specialties, but only differs by a few classes.

Overall

I don't see the Computer Network Systems major you mentioned. Other than one Networking course at UNI, networking is covered only as a side issue in other courses.

Between the two institutions, Wartburg offers a more direct path to a computer management career, or another computer-business-oriented path.

For technical skills, the variety at UNI is superior. The major is less important than the specialty(s) you choose. There is a great flowchart (http://www.cns.uni.edu/~east/service/cs/UG.Chart.02-04.jpg) showing the courses, with the specialties in dotted boxes. But they forgot to label the boxes! From left to right, they are Foundations, Systems, Software Engineering, and Information Science.

Wherever you go to college, be sure to take lots of courses in a variety of non-computer fields. A well-rounded education is more important, and makes you a "better" person, than a focused skill in a single area.

Well, I certainly learned a lot about schools in Iowa today! Please talk to counselors and don't take my opinions as fact. Nevertheless, I sure hope this helps you!

bousozoku

Jul 25, 2003, 01:27 AM

I've been in the business a very long time (18+ years) and I would suggest that you stay away from a standard Computer Science or Computer Engineering degree if you want to be hands-on with equipment. Those degrees are as far from hands-on as possible. It's like the joke "how many programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? none, it's a hardware problem."

Also, you should check into the jobs available in the area where you want to live. You may not see all of the jobs in your area but you could get a feel for it.

I'm not sure about a networking degree, but locally, we have networking certificates including Cisco certifications.

jefhatfield

Jul 25, 2003, 01:34 AM

if it means anything, i live near silicon valley and years later, in 1999, i became a pc tech and network person...i have never met anyone with a cs degree in the cs field...and when i was younger it was ee/el majors and especially math majors in the computer field

oh, i knew of one cs major guy...he worked for a dot.com that kind of became scarce:p

...but i have been in working world more than a couple of decades and i know the cs degree i am working on now will give me some skill sets, but nothing directly related to what i do or what most computer people do...basically, i like the study of the cs theory and i don't frustrate myself thinking it actually has to work in the real world

one teacher told me they don't need ms, cisco will take over...i used to hear oracle would take over...or linux

how about mac?

G4scott

Jul 25, 2003, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by bbarnhart
If you are thinking about a CS degree you need to make sure that the stuff in bold above sounds exciting and fun. If you think that it sounds boring and dorky and you'd rather be d/l MP3's then you don't want a CS degree.

It was exciting. That's why I almost failed through my first year of high school. I got a better calculator, and couldn't put it down. I wasn't playing games, I was programming...

I love math and problem solving. I'm even taking this freshman seminar class that deals with solving logic and stuff with puzzles and games. Although, I do like physics too. My highest AP test grade came from physics, but I don't like the idea of messing around in the world of computer engineering, and making chips. I like the software part.

My latest creation was a 'smart' maze solver. While it may not seem like much, making a maze solving program within a couple of hours while at the university orientation was a nice challenge...

I just need to learn more modern code, and syntax. I understand the basics, such as loops, if-then statements, and stuff that you can do with a TI calculator, but there is so much more, and I'm really looking forwards to it.

Doctor Q

Jul 25, 2003, 02:10 AM

Originally posted by G4scott
I wasn't playing games, I was programming... I love math and problem solving... I like the software part... My latest creation was a 'smart' maze solver.You sound just like me. And just like a computer science major.

zimv20

Jul 25, 2003, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by G4scott

I understand the basics, such as loops, if-then statements, and stuff that you can do with a TI calculator, but there is so much more, and I'm really looking forwards to it.

i hope you enjoy recursion as much as i did, then.

jefhatfield

Jul 25, 2003, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by bousozoku
I've been in the business a very long time (18+ years) and I would suggest that you stay away from a standard Computer Science or Computer Engineering degree if you want to be hands-on with equipment. Those degrees are as far from hands-on as possible. It's like the joke "how many programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? none, it's a hardware problem."

so true

i met a longtime cs professor who needed help using his cd rom

i asked another cs professor what usb was...he didn't know:p

zimv20

Jul 25, 2003, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by jefhatfield

i met a longtime cs professor who needed help using his cd rom

i asked another cs professor what usb was...he didn't know:p

those guys are in academia. as soon as a CS major goes into the industry, s/he works as an engineer.

my first task at my first software job was to fix a program written by a CS PhD they had hired. it was a mess -- i had to rewrite the whole thing to clean up the bugs. he couldn't code worth ####.

jefhatfield

Jul 25, 2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by zimv20
those guys are in academia. as soon as a CS major goes into the industry, s/he works as an engineer.

my first task at my first software job was to fix a program written by a CS PhD they had hired. it was a mess -- i had to rewrite the whole thing to clean up the bugs. he couldn't code worth ####.

just when i start learning something about how to code in a language, the class is over...i guess i need to do some coding at work to really get the hang of it

back in college, in the liberal arts department, they had a one semester class on songwriting...people who did not know how to write a song or compose a piece of music didn't get very far...being a good composer/songwriter is more of a lifestyle garnered over many years of practice

the one thing about coding that bugs me is once one gets truly proficient at some computer language, another one replaces it

will java be the final be all end all language like some java types are saying? my java book says it will replace C++ at least

my java teacher thinks things will still constantly evolve and no language will come out as a dominant force for a long time, if ever

zimv20

Jul 25, 2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by jefhatfield

my java teacher thinks things will still constantly evolve and no language will come out as a dominant force for a long time, if ever

i don't think any language will ever "win." different programming situations call for different language features.

heck, when i was in school, Pascal was the "official" language. and i had to take an assembly programming course, too (though to be fair, i _did_ do some assembly programming in my first job).

also learned Lisp and Prolog at school. Lisp is still the coolest language, imo.

jefhatfield

Jul 25, 2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by zimv20
i don't think any language will ever "win." different programming situations call for different language features.

i wonder if microsoft thinks that they can eventually own every language and have all the compilers

when i was in school, some geeky dude told me that microsoft, actually bill gates himself, owned 13 computer languages

to me, i wasn't a techie yet or interested in computers, but the first thought that occcured to me, the first word, should i say, was "monopoly":p

Doctor Q

Jul 25, 2003, 02:07 PM

If I suddenly turned into Bill Gates, I'd be disappointed because I'd have to spend all my time in meetings, testifying before congress, bad-mouthing Java, ignoring security flaws, counting my money to make sure it's all there, etc. When he started his company, Bill wrote code (e.g., compilers), which is much more satisfying work. If I turn into Bill, I plan to rename the company Macrosoft and switch to Mac programming.

On the serious side.... In the U.S., routine programming jobs continue to move overseas. A survey reported by Computerworld (June 30) found that U.S. companies charge about $80 to $120 per hour for outsourced programming, while offshore providers charge more like $40.

Another job market tidbit from Computerworld (July 7): Average base salary for a Unix systems administrator: $96,163. Average base salary for a Windows NT systems administartor: $67,355.

janey

Jul 25, 2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
Another job market tidbit from Computerworld (July 7): Average base salary for a Unix systems administrator: $96,163. Average base salary for a Windows NT systems administartor: $67,355.
good news for those unix sysadmins and sysadmin wannabes :p

jefhatfield

Jul 26, 2003, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by übergeek
good news for those unix sysadmins and sysadmin wannabes :p

though the hardware and computer/network maintenance type jobs pay more than the programming jobs, many network admins are also the chief information officers in many small to medium companies

so a lot of them get bonuses and are part owners of the company...and some make tremendous money not related to IT and IS

they spike the salary level to a higher number...don't expect the average network admin job to be that high most of the time

it's still a pretty good salary/wage for a skill that does not, and usually does not have a person with a degree that mans the ship

incidentally another job i read about that does not have degreed people most of the time are real estate agents...however, in my area, there are tons of part time teachers who make squat and for some reason, a lot of them turn to amway or to real estate as a second job for some strange reason...and some claim amway or real estate pay more than the teaching jobs that take most of their time

the one thing in common i usually, but not always, find with amway reps and real estate agents are pushiness and a real liberal interpretation of the truth..."so what does truth mean to you, brother?":p