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plutnicki
Jul 24, 2003, 12:28 PM
Quick question, since I'm now the owner of 2 Macs, when Panther debuts and I wish to upgrade both systems, do I now need to buy two copies of Panther to run? Or does Apple sell licences for a discount? Both computers will be connected via Aiports, so if I install the same copy on both systems, won't they detect each other?

Is there any way to get a multi-license for 2 macs and not have to drop $260 on an upgrade?

Just curious, this is the first time I've ever had 2 computers in my house.

Thx,

robbieduncan
Jul 24, 2003, 12:35 PM
Legally you must buy 2 copies, but Apple do not (at least to this point) stop you install 1 copy of Mac OS on multiple Macs. For Jaguar they made a "Family Pack" (iirc) available - 3 licenses (edit: actually 5) for around about $200.

Edit: Family Pack (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/71707/wo/Z22IHo6mu4463zHhr9I1JMlHuQK/1.3.0.5.8.3.10.13.0)

Daveman Deluxe
Jul 24, 2003, 01:55 PM
robbie is on the money. You can get a five-licence pack for $200. Heck, I'd get friends with a total of five Macs between you guys and buy it for $40 per Mac. :rolleyes:

But if you install a single-license copy on both machines, I doubt you'll have any problems besides your own conscience screaming bloody murder at you (if that's what it will do).

RGunner
Jul 24, 2003, 02:21 PM
Dave, do you play your purchased music / DVD's / VHS tapes in ONE player? Somehow I doubt it.

The software industry has taken advantage of consumers, why are they any different than any other software medium?

jxyama
Jul 24, 2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by RGunner
Dave, do you play your purchased music / DVD's / VHS tapes in ONE player?


ahh... but do you play those purchased music/dvd/vhs at the same time on two players?

RGunner
Jul 24, 2003, 02:39 PM
Which is my gripe, if I have two machines, I am NOT allowed to install that software on both, regardless if I am 3500 miles from home using my laptop.

I am all for legality, I do not download music from the net (outside of ITMS) and I always purchase licensed software, BUT I do refuse to purchase something twice, while being able to use it once.

ftaok
Jul 24, 2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by RGunner
Which is my gripe, if I have two machines, I am NOT allowed to install that software on both, regardless if I am 3500 miles from home using my laptop.

I am all for legality, I do not download music from the net (outside of ITMS) and I always purchase licensed software, BUT I do refuse to purchase something twice, while being able to use it once. RGunner,

Actually, most software licenses that I've seen allow you to install the software on up to 2 computers. The exceptions are stuff like OS's and some oddball software companies.

RGunner
Jul 24, 2003, 02:57 PM
One at the office, one at home and one I travel with..

Even if 2 installs are allowed, why are software companies permitted to regulate this??

Keep in mind again that we can take our music or videos (merely bits of data that someone has created as well) and play them at home, in our cars, in our boats .. you get the drift.

This is why I wont buy Micro$haft, I wont agree to these terms.

ftaok
Jul 24, 2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by RGunner
One at the office, one at home and one I travel with..

Even if 2 installs are allowed, why are software companies permitted to regulate this??They are permitted because they are selling the product and they can dictate the terms of the sale. If the consumer doesn't like the terms, they don't buy.

Keep in mind again that we can take our music or videos (merely bits of data that someone has created as well) and play them at home, in our cars, in our boats .. you get the drift. I hear where you're coming from on this, but technically, you could do the same with your software. If you want to use an application on 3 computers, you could load it on one computer permanently and alternate it on 2 other computers. I know it's a hassle (and not a good alternative), but what cha gonna do? Or, you could install the application on an external drive and bring that around with you.

This is why I wont buy Micro$haft, I wont agree to these terms. That's your choice. And it's not just Microsoft that puts those terms on their software. They all do it, including Apple.

tazo
Jul 24, 2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by RGunner
One at the office, one at home and one I travel with..

Even if 2 installs are allowed, why are software companies permitted to regulate this??

Keep in mind again that we can take our music or videos (merely bits of data that someone has created as well) and play them at home, in our cars, in our boats .. you get the drift.

This is why I wont buy Micro$haft, I wont agree to these terms.

Welcome to America Rgunner; its called Capitalism :)

Doctor Q
Jul 24, 2003, 04:26 PM
Software is a funny type of product. It costs a certain fixed one-time amount to develop and test and document it, and some ongoing costs to market it and support it, but it costs practially nothing to deliver it. So the amount you pay for one copy or 5 copies can't be based on the cost of producing and delivering those copies, but on some notion of the value of the software itself. You often get a discount when you buy a 5-pack of software, which is fair because, although the value of 5 copies is 5 times the value of 1 copy, it didn't cost them 5 times as much to market the product to you or to package and deliver those 5 copies.

By the way, I asked an Apple exec if Panther would have the same family packs that Jaguar does. She said she would guess they would, but she wouldn't promise it.

arogge
Jul 25, 2003, 11:00 PM
When Panther comes out, I plan to buy one copy and install it onto two systems. We give Apple a lot of money in sales, and I don't believe that it's unreasonable to buy one copy of Apple's software and use it on multiple systems. Other than the cost of supporting Panther through Software Update, it doesn't cost Apple anything for us to install Panther multiple times. With the money saved by not having to buy two copies of Panther, I plan to buy some other Apple software. :)

Doctor Q
Jul 26, 2003, 12:19 AM
Some thought experiments about whether to pay once or multiple times to install Panther on more than one of your computers:

Thought experiment #1:

* Apple sets the Panther price at $100 per license.

* 10 customers each have 1 computer. They each buy 1 copy of Panther for $100 and install it on their 1 computer.

* 10 other customers each have 2 computers. They each buy 1 copy of Panther for $100 but install it on 2 computers.

Purchases: Apple sells 20 copies of Panther for $2000. 30 copies are installed.

Problems: The first group got less benefit from their purchase than the second group, despite paying the same amount. The second group of customers are violating their licenses. The first group is, in effect, financing the license violations by the second group.

Thought experiment #2:

* Apple sets the Panther price at $66.67 per license.

* 10 customers each have 1 computer. They each buy 1 copy of Panther for $66.67 and install it on their 1 computer.

* 10 other customers each have 2 computers. They each buy 2 copies of Panther for $66.67 each and install them on 2 computers.

Purchases: Apple sells 30 copies of Panther for $2000. 30 copies are installed.

Problem: The second group of customers feel they overpaid because they didn't get any multi-copy discount, even though other software often gives you permission to install it on more than one computer used by the same person.

Thought experiment #3:

* Apple sets the Panther price at $75 for the first license and $50 for each subsequent license purchased at the same time.

* 10 customers each have 1 computer. They each buy 1 copy of Panther for $75 and install it on their 1 computer.

* 10 other customers each have 2 computers. They each buy 2 copies of Panther for $75+$50=$125 and install them on 2 computers.

Purchases: Apple sells 30 copies of Panther for $2000. 30 copies are installed. Note: The discount could be larger (e.g., $80 for the first copy and $40 for each subsequent copy), without changing these results.

Problems: None. The first group paid less to get less. The second group paid more to get more but got a good discount. No licenses were violated.

My conclusion

Apple makes the same money in all three cases, so they shouldn't care which case applies. Customers get a fairer deal in the 3rd case. Therefore, multi-copy price discounts should be available for any number of copies (not just 5-packs) and we should pay for each copy we install.

arogge
Jul 27, 2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Doctor Q
Therefore, multi-copy price discounts should be available for any number of copies (not just 5-packs) and we should pay for each copy we install. [/B]

I don't believe that everyone should have to pay extra money for doing something that costs Apple nothing. If you can download the OS X updates without using Software Update, you can install the updates on multiple systems and not cost Apple additional server time. Buying a second OS X license really is a waste of money. I'd rather buy another Apple software product, which will better support Apple.

herr_neumann
Jul 27, 2003, 03:21 AM
for non-OS software on multiple machines (ie home and office) get a portable firewire drive. Drop the software on it and take it where ever you want to go.

Another advantae over windoze.....

robbieduncan
Jul 27, 2003, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by herr_neumann
for non-OS software on multiple machines (ie home and office) get a portable firewire drive. Drop the software on it and take it where ever you want to go.

Another advantae over windoze.....

You can install the OS on a Firewire drive and boot from that as well. That way you have the same exact setup wherever you are. I think this is probably OK legally as well.

Daveman Deluxe
Jul 27, 2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by RGunner
Dave, do you play your purchased music / DVD's / VHS tapes in ONE player? Somehow I doubt it.

Sorry this is late (been housesitting/camping without Internet), but you're allowed to play music/DVDs/VHS tapes in more than one player. You aren't allowed to make unauthorized copies of any of those. MP3s are a special case. You can rip a CD as many times as you like to different devices as long as a) you own the original CDs yourself, and b) the devices are yours.

The point is moot since the only CD player I have is in my iBook, the only DVD player I have is in my iBook, and I don't ever use the VCR anymore.

pseudobrit
Jul 27, 2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by jxyama
ahh... but do you play those purchased music/dvd/vhs at the same time on two players?

And if I wanted to, why should anyone be able to stop me and who are you to say it's wrong?

If I had a summer house, would I pay extra to buy doubles of every CD I owned so I didn't have to bring them all with me?

Maybe I should go out and buy 3 extra copies of the entire Beatles catalog. One each to cover for the "theft" I've committed by putting the collection I've paid for into MP3 form and onto my iPod, my external FireWire HD and backed up onto CD-ROM.

Please, stop with the preaching, people. We're consumers. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Once we've paid for it, we have a right to do with our purchase as we please. If I buy a new Pontiac, take it home and beat it with a hammer until it's scrap, can GM come and tell me that I wasn't allowed?

RGunner
Jul 27, 2003, 06:46 PM
SOMEDAY.. we wont be able to buy GM vehicles (or any other brand) and we WONT have any rights to beat on them with a sledgehammer either.

Cars (or whatever means of transportation we have) of the future will be rented / leased. Mark these words...

Doubt me? its already happening with electric vehicles and fuel cell concepts...

peterjhill
Jul 27, 2003, 06:55 PM
Gee, I remember this thread when Jaguar came out. I seem to remember that in the end, there were those who didn't think they should have to pay for a license for each machine, and those that did.

Legally, of course, in the U.S. the box of software the Panther will come in contains two things. A packet of cds that contains the software, and a piece of paper that permits the purchaser to install the software on a single machine.

Comparing software to music or movies is a bit like apples vs oranges, sure they both tend to come on shiny silver disks, but they are very different in their use.

RGunner
Jul 27, 2003, 06:59 PM
They are both created with lots of effort by many people, they both are digital forms of media and both can be used for work or play. I disagree with you (respectfully of course).

Music / Software / Video is very much the same, except that the Software companies feel they have more rights than the music / video industry..

What is different is that the Music / Video industry lost with the Sony BETA ruling.

pseudobrit
Jul 27, 2003, 09:25 PM
It wasn't too long ago that the cable companies would make you pay extra for each additional TV you had the cable you paid for hooked up to.

And how could they get away with this?
They had a monopoly. Sound familiar?

As soon as they smelled competition from satellite TV coming down the road, they dropped the restrictions.

solvs
Jul 27, 2003, 10:58 PM
If you have 2 (maybe 3) Macs, I think you will be okay. You could buy a 5 or 10 user license if you really wanted too, but I think 2 is okay. This is Apple here, not M$. If Apple decides to use some kind of XP-like protection, the backlash will only hurt them.

I wouldn't recommend installing it on a ton of machines, but I don't think 2 would hurt.

DVDSP
Jul 28, 2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by RGunner
Music / Software / Video is very much the same, except that the Software companies feel they have more rights than the music / video industry..


But let's think about this a little. If you buy music (on a CD) or a video, you can watch it anywhere you like, there are no restrictions. The idea here is that you take the CD/video with you to use it at the alternate location. With software, you don't run it off the CD it came on, you install it on a computer. The problem is that you can then take that CD and install it on another and another and another computer without removing the software from the original computer.

But, as mentioned above, most software companies will let their software be installed on mulitple computers as long as it is not being run concurrently. Software companies realize that people will use mutliple computers, as you pointed out earlier, but they figure you don't need to be running, say, Photoshop, on your workstation at your job and on your TiBook at the same time.

A couple of times I've has PS open on one computer and launched it on another and (if Airport is on) I'll get a message saying that PS is already running on this network and the second launch will abort until the first PS has Quit. I really don't mind that as it's generally just an oversite on my part. Quit one, launch the other.

However, I do have a problem with MS (can you believe it? :)). I generally do not use Office but my wife is in it all the time. For the most part she uses her iBook but occasionally, if it is off and she just needs to do something quick she'd like to use one of the G4s (since they are on most of the time). So I installed Office on one of the G4s to help her out. Within 2 months I got a "postcard" from MS strictly talking about software piracy, how it is illegal and how MS will take all necessary steps to enforce the law. I thought it was odd that I got that but didn't really think much of it until a month later I got another. Then another. After the third one I completely removed Office from the G4 and I have NEVER gotten another piracy postcard from them. I don't know if it is just a coincidence but I certainly do not trust them.

Also, I've never had any of that trouble from Adobe, Apple, Macromedia, etc.