Safari 1.0 Rushed?

[MacRumors]

A MacUser.co.uk (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/?http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/news_story.php?id=45306) article on Web Developers and Safari notes a few ongoing issues with Apple's browser.

Of particular note is Safari's "over-ambitious caching" -- which may inadvertantly display pages with inconsistent results. One developer notes:

It's one thing to cache pages, but when it uses old versions of buttons and scripts it's anyone's guess what the results will be for users.

MacUser.co.uk also reveals that Apple may have rushed Safari to a 1.0 released after Microsoft's announcement (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030613135330.shtml) that Internet Explorer would no longer be developed for the Macintosh:

Even Apple insiders have admitted privately that Safari was too buggy for it to have been given a finished release status

[Jerry Spoon]

I'll agree from a personal view that Safari 1.0 was rushed. I've had more trouble with this version than any of the beta versions I've used.
It's still a great browser, but I'm a little disappointed w/ apple for jumping the gun a bit.

[dricci]

It's a great browser, but it's just not ready to be a 1.0 release. I'd say it'd classify more as a 1.0 Public Beta.

It's pretty crashy and still doesn't load some obvious things correctly (like secure sites for many people, and the animated weather.com maps which have been reported by many since the first beta release) and the caching problems, etc just make it not ready.

Hopefully we'll see 1.1 soon!

[Goekeli]

I have to agree. I still can't use it. Camino is my #1. Safari is also slow for me compared to camino. I really look forward to the fruit getting it together with this browser. The integration factor can only add to the MAC persons life. Thanks for the report!

Joe:)

[funkywhat2]

You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't...

If Apple hadn't of released it, then not only would the current crop of users been let down (even if only slightly) but it would look as if they couldn't handle M$ dropping IE for the Mac. C|Net would've been all over it (or be all over it, if it still wouldn't of had been released) and bad press would've come to pass then instead of now. The last thing they needed was (more) bad press, with the G5 launch and all.

[avus]

Safari Version 1.0 is not trouble free for me either, but it is still my primary browser. Apple's criteria for being "buggy" is too stringent compared to, say, Microsoft, IMO.

[MrMacMan]

I find it great, I don't know what everyone is humbugging about.

I find it wonderful, almost bug free, execpt for some site specific things.

I don't see any security problems, I don't need to update every 10 seconds, therefore it is better then the competition.

[jbomber]

it feels like the betas were better than this 'final'. lots of errors that i wasn't seeing earlier on....

[punter]

i know other final releases which contain many more bugs then safari, even when it was a beta.

it works fine for me.

[simX]

Other than the annoying caching problem (which usually doesn't really make much of a difference unless you doing a lot of web design and updating frequently), Safari 1.0 seems to be pretty much bug-free for me. I don't think it was rushed that much -- it WAS in a 6 month public beta period, after all.

While there may be sites that don't work, that's to be expected in any browser, and it's up there with the Gecko engine.

Oh, and Safari is definitely faster than Camino, at least for me.

[Snowy_River]

I didn't use Safari much before the final release. I used Camino (formerly Chimera, a name which I liked much better...). When Safari 1.0 was released, I decided to try it, and have, for the most part, had little trouble with it. It seems no better or worse than Camino, on the whole. If anything, I've found that it doesn't crash quite as often as Camino, but then, Camino is still only at a 0.7 release. (Part of my chioce to switch to Safari as my main browser was the fact that Camino seemed to be languishing at 0.7 status. It's been almost five months with no significant report of improvement.... That, and the fact that there were some things about the interface on Camino that bugged me. In that sense I like Safari better, but I'd still like to be able to rearrange the order of the tabs...)

[Flowbee]

Originally posted by Jerry Spoon
I'll agree from a personal view that Safari 1.0 was rushed. I've had more trouble with this version than any of the beta versions I've used.


Exactly my opinion. That being said, it's still my primary browser.

[Puppies]

Right now I'm not using a Mac as my main machine (not until the PowerBooks get updated in a month or two), but I use Safari whenever I'm working on an iMac I've got access to. I'm sure I don't use it enough to run across all the bugs it might have, but from relativly limited use, it seems very stable, very fast, and all around more advanced than Internet Explorer (Mac AND Windows versions).

This seems like a non-issue to me. I mean Safari is FREE. If they were charging for it, then yeah, be ticked off. But it seems to work pretty great, and it dosen't cost anything to try out.

And I agree that it may have been important for Apple to get it out for "political" reasons. In which case I don't have the slightest problem with Apple releasing a beta as final software; not if it helps deflate that Micosoft IE garbage.

To an extent I feel like Safari is redundant-I normally use Mozilla on both Windows and OS X, and it's simply the best browser on Earth...but Safari's got a ton of clever ideas, runs well, is totally standards based (and is even partially open source). So good job Apple!

[MacSlut]

Are you using Safari 1.0 or are you using Netscape 7 or Explorer 5.2?

If Safari wasn't deserving a "1.0" wouldn't it have much less acceptance than it has?

The real funny thing is that this article picks one of the main reasons why I use Safari instead of Explorer...cache errors with Explorer!

[Sol]

Safari 1.0 is the buggiest of all the Safaris so far. So buggy in fact that it will not load any pages on my Mac. The problem is that the first time I tried to launch it there was an older Safari on my hard drive and this created some kind of conflict. I uninstalled both versions and then re-installed the latest but the application continues to get stuck when I try to access a web page. This is too bad for me because I liked the older version of Safari and used it as my main browser since its release.

It is not all bad news though. Because of the Safari issues I started using Mozilla and other than the slow start-up time and having to re-create my bookmarks this browser is good enough for me.

Get your finger out Apple, we need a Safari that lives up to expectations.

[leenoble]

On the subject of caching. I've always felt like taking IE by the scruff of the neck and wringing every drop of life out of it for it's appalling caching. That's on both PC and Mac. Not so much for what it does cache but for losing it when you want it to. In IE you have to go to another page you're not working on. Empty the cache. Quit explorer. Launch explorer. Empty the cache again just to be sure and then reload the page you're interested in. And emptying the cache can't even be done with a keyboard shortcut.
On safari I can be certain that Cmd-Opt-E will do exactly what I want it to in seconds. I do develop websites. And I use Safari all the time.
Another thing with IE on my computer at least, is the damned subsriptions. I haven't used IE for over a year on a regular basis but I need to have it for development purposes. Problem is, once I launch it I get that incessant subscription monitor window obnoxiously pushing it's way on top of anything I'm working on at the time and have to wait for it to go away. I've turned monitoring off: didn't work. I got clever and set it to check manually every 500 days so at least I'd get over a year's peace: didn't work either.
Jeezus I hate explorer!

And I hate WMP too, why the hell does it close down when you close the open movie window. Means you have to remember to leave the-movie-you-are-no-longer-interested-in-watching open while you go get the next one.

[/rant]

still at least IE would handle my non-standard tagging procedures :-)

[crassusad44]

If it had been Microsoft who made Safari, we would be at 1.0 at the first Public Beta. Safari 1.0 would be SP1 or something.
I've been using Safari as my primary browser since Public Beta 2. Maybe 1.0 can be a bit buggy, but what 1.0 software is not buggy?
1.0 is only a version number, why even bother too write a long article about it?

[herocero]

i would have assumed after os X 10.0 that everyone would wait for apple to release x.1 (or even x.2) . . . not like M$ is any better, i just see an interesting trend.

on a kind of related note, someone mentioned the open source aspect of safari (and a lot of their projects of late). does apple get a lot of user feedback at the developer level as a result of their committment to the open source mantra?

[nagromme]

Rushed? Yes. Unlike the crash-proof betas, 1.0 is the second most unstable app on my Mac: it kills itself (not the system) about twice week of heavy use. (The worst is IE: twice a day of the same.)

But it's still my browser of choice, so I could care less whether they call it 1.0, Beta II, or Millicent.

I look forward to 1.1 though.

[redAPPLE]

my take:

Safari is not perfect. It crashes when i encounter a website with some form of javascript in the source code.

unfortunately, to send a bug report, i have to copy the URL, but then Safari crashes...

another problem is "private" sites. they do not work. but i cannot send a bug report with the URL, because i want it to stay private.

i just wish we guys should keep on sending those bug reports and feedbacks so Apple can fix these bugs.

despite these annoying problems, it is still my primary browser.

[marijne]

The cache issue doesn't only affect web developers. Since Safari 1.0 caches even CGI output, and provides no method of manually refreshing individual frames, a frame based forum becomes pretty much unusable.

I really wish I'd kept a copy of the previous beta, because it was perfect for my usage and easily my primary browser. With 1.0, I find myself switching over to Camino far more often.

[Nermal]

Originally posted by leenoble
And I hate WMP too, why the hell does it close down when you close the open movie window. Means you have to remember to leave the-movie-you-are-no-longer-interested-in-watching open while you go get the next one.

I agree. I hate it how WiMP and RealOne both do that.

[vrapan]

Have been using it as the main browser all the way, while relying on IE for some sites that dont play very well. The only main problem I got is that it doesnt load many images and I get this stupid questionmark. And I do prefer Mozilla's way of blocking only the pop ups you dont want. However I had many more bugs when I first instlled it and didnt pay attention to Apple's suggestiong that I should remove my older Safari in order for Safari 1.0 to be ok after I removed both and then reinstalled Safari 1.0 everything seems to be working much better but yes it needs a bit of polishin up I will agree

[vancenase]

ya just have to hit the refresh button ....

BUT ... most of the games at yahoo.com are not compatible! :( anyone find any other sites? :)

[DeadlyBreakfast]

Its my primary browser now also. IE has found its way off of my dock. I dont have any problems with it at all with one exception of not being able to name pictures when you save them. It just uses the name it receives. Not really a bug, more of an opportunity for improvement. I love it.

[gopher]

I use Safari as my primary web browser, but only because Mozilla is too slow to load, and Camino has been too buggy and so has Firebird. I will periodically load a page in Mozilla if it doesn't render right in Safari, or if I need security features of Mozilla like telling me the kind of encryption I'm using, but otherwise I stick to Safari. And I always report bugs to Apple through the bug reporter found in the Safari menu. Hopefully all of you are doing the same.

[serpicolugnut]

Rushed? What difference would it make to ANY of you (who are complaining), whether Apple dubbed the current release version 1.0, or beta 3? Absolutely none. Apple is working to make Safari the best it can be, and every release brings it closer.

It's quite possible that the decision to label this version 1.0 had more to do with MS announcing IE was dead on the Mac than whether Safari was quite ready. But most of us have been saying since beta 2 that it was good to go. So what's the issue?

We all know Safari will get frequent updates. Safari 1.01 or 1.1 is being readied as we speak. Since it's a free application, I just can't see why people are getting their panties in a wad over what version is labelled 1.0 or beta 3 or whatever.

It works fine for me, as it does the majority of other users. So quit yer b!tchin!

[Fredo Viola]

I have very little trouble with Safari. Sometimes, when I have trouble with a site, I open IE or Netscape and often find that the problems persist. Safari is an awesome, young browser.

[MasterX (OSiX)]

I found that the public beta right before 1.0 (v67? I dont remember anymore) was the buggiest. 1.0 has been good for me. I've also noticed Safari is a very per-computer program. I think until 1.0 i got smoother scrolling on my 500mhz G4 than my 800mhz iMac G4. Go figure. Some things are still a llittle slow, but in my personal testing Safari has been fastest in benchmarks or at least usable page loads (loads all but one file on a web site and draws it before another browser can). I dunno, Safari just feels like the fastest there is.

Besides after Apple's recent apps (iSync, iCal, iMovie 3) we shoud be damn thankful of Safari's performance/CPU load. :D

[AppleMatt]

My two gripes with Safari;

- eBay. Submitting/Revising listings and Country protection page
- BBS. It "unexpectedly quits" when posting to some of my favorite sites.

Originally posted by avus
Apple's criteria for being "buggy" is too stringent compared to, say, Microsoft, IMO.

I agree. It's what makes Apple so good :)

AppleMatt

[Rick65000]

Two things I'd like to see added asap are access to secure sites. I can't use my credit card's site or sell on ebay with Safari, and I'd prefer to.

The other thing is a more intelegent pop-up block. Granted the pop-up blocker is greatest, but if you could choose to block certain windows like the one you're doing random browsing in, and allow pop-ups in the window you're using to access a secure database (which requires pop-ups for data entry), that would just about the best thing ever.

btw Safari load faster and hardly ever crashes unless I've gotten really out of hand with the number of open windows, and down loading.

As far as the local secrure database goes. It looks a lot better in Safari than it does in IE.

[psxndc]

Safari 1.0 has been near perfect for me. The only issue I've had is displaying my Outlook Web Access email (for work) and even then it doesn't crash; the page just looks messed up. The beta before 1.0 would crash all the time on me (especially on Yahoo Sports) to the point where I wouldn't even use safari for a lot of surfing. But I have had almost 0 problems with Safari 1.0.

Are there specific sites that people can list that give it problems?

In my day to day surfing, I really haven't encountered anything that Safari can't handle.

-p

[Macmaniac]

Well I use Safari reguarly now that we have cable and things work pretty well. Except Java creates alot of headaches, my mom tried to use the USA swimming website which is full of Java and Safari had major coniptions, it was displaying an error message every 4 seconds. Except for that things have been great.

[Sonofhaig]

This baby is a work in progress. IE is valuable when Safari doesn't cut the mustard. I love Safari, don't get me wrong, but it has a little ways to go before it's perfect.
I'm sure Apple recieved a great number of bug reports and will have a smoother running browser soon.

[rundevilrun]

Safari 1.0 has been probably the most reliable browser I've used on both my mac and pc. I agree it has some problems on some sites, but then again I experienced that with Mozilla from ver 1.0 to 1.3.

This probably results from low expectations caused by years of using windows, but I think Safari 1.0 is pretty damn good. :)

[Wry Cooter]

Originally posted by Macrumors


MacUser.co.uk also reveals that Apple may have rushed Safari to a 1.0 released after Microsoft's announcement (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/?[url]http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/news_story.php?id=45306) that Internet Explorer would no longer be developed for the Macintosh:

It was my impression that Safari 1.0 was released before the MS announcement regarding Mac IE development. Of course, Apple could have had wind of this before the rest of the world, but that isn't the definition of "announcement" is it?

Apple also had some trade shows coming up and people anxious for a version of Safari that could do tabbed browsing at the least.

[network23]

All this being said, there have been a couple threads over in Slashdot recently that, upon loading, cause Mozilla to crash gloriously. When I try these evil threads in Safari, they load just fine.

My BIG HOPE for the next update will be that they allow us to drag a link to the blank area next to tabs to create a new tab with the linked page loading in it. Mozilla has this functionality and it's so natural, Safari really should have it.

[JtheLemur]

yeah, Safari 1.0 is a bit poopy.

BTW - Camino is NOT languishing at 0.7. That is indeed the last official release - but if you want to try it out, make SURE to download the NIGHTLY version -

http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/camino/nightly/latest/

It does almost everything Safari does, but better. Only wish it could sync bookmarks.

This is updated relatively often. Though with the shakeup at Netscape and such, who knows... hopefully the community will keep Mozilla alive. =)

[celaurie]

I'm not sure if Safari is all that bad!? I use it as my primary browser now and there's only one web page I can think of that has problemsloading, there again the same page just doesn't happen in Netscape either.

Safari 1.0 is a sound build. Can it be iproved upon? Yes!

But how many improvements could be made to Netscape or Internet Explorer and look how long they've been around.

Frankly, the faster rendering and easy UI means Safari blows the competition out of the water.

Chris, pro-Safari

Edit: grammar n' schpelling

[cbarning]

Mgi Cookies don't work with Safari. Any suggestions go to http://www.kegworks.com

[rjwill246]

Safari is not able to get to some sites I need: try http://www.nuemed.com/ and click on the Mac user button!
Mozilla gets through this site, which is a medical management program just as well as IE but NEITHER of these can print out patient appointment calendars. Once you hit the print button--> spinning beachball. In IE for Windows, everything works! You would at least think MS would have kept IE consistent on both platforms (of course, we know they don't and now, probably won't).

Mozilla (nightly builds) is getting better and better and I use it when Safari won't work. As for worrying about Safari's bugs and lack of features... Apple surely knows that the Mac platform has to have a fully functional browser tht keeps pace with Windows IE: otherwise, if Mac users cannot access the Internet properly, Apple WILL lose sales! That might be another opportunity to take legal action against MS which would then basically control all aspects of Web access giving only Wintellers full access... here we go again.

[visor]

Apple put a focus on supporting standards well, and indeed, that works.
to bad that java, esp. java applets, are for from beeing standardized. Ever since all kinds of companies tried to improve speed on Guis, the 'run everywhere' of java has been torpedized, and as such, Safari represents just another victim of that.

Even though, you can tell where developers did good work - those applets usally run even in safari, and poor work.

However, an applet should never cause safari to crash, no matter how poorly written. crash the java sandbox - ok, don't run at all - ok, but don't cause other programs to crash - thats poor implementation.

[digitalbiker]

I have had more problems with Safari 1.0 than the other betas.

For me the window resize widget and scroll bar widget, randomly get confused and overlap one another rendering the scroll bar widget useless.

The window size is different everytime I initialize safari, rather than remembering the last window size I used.

There are many more web sites that no longer render in safari.

Safari 1.0 has already abruptly crashed and blown off the desktop many more times than the previous beta.

My wife has the same issues on her ibook.

[SiliconAddict]

Has anyone tried Mozilla Firebird for OSX yet? Its still WAY in beta but I've loaded it on ever computer I own and use it religiously day in day out. Not a crash. Not a single problem. Honestly I’ve used various browsers over the years but found myself going back to IE 5 or better simply because I found the Mozilla, Netscape experience lacking. Firebird is another matter altogether. Its fast to open. Fast to render a page and more importantly its stable.
Granted this is on a Wintel box (For the time being) so one's results may very on OSX. If anyone wants to give it a try:

http://www.mozilla.org/products/firebird/

[Thirteenva]

I'm really shocked at the amount of people saying how safari 1.0 is unstable.

I've found it to be the most stable version yet. I have not had it quit on me and i use it heavily all day long to test my web development projects. Its the only mac browser that renders anywhere near similar to Win IE 6. Making it easier to debug for both platforms. Its my main browser both at work and home and i've had little problems with it other than it choking on MS IE specific coding practices on certain sites i go to.

I also haven't come across the caching issue yet, but i also dump my cache on a regular basis for debugging purposes.

I'm much happier having safari than i was without it. For me not having a snappy, good rendering browser was the biggest problem for me on the mac. Chimera was ok but i think safari is so much better.

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by Macmaniac
Well I use Safari reguarly now that we have cable and things work pretty well. Except Java creates alot of headaches, my mom tried to use the USA swimming website which is full of Java and Safari had major coniptions, it was displaying an error message every 4 seconds. Except for that things have been great.

I checked out this site to see what you were talking about as i have not seen any problems with safari and java.

The site you are talking about uses javaSCRIPT, not java, and the error message was not an error message, that pop up is a javascript alert function (probably a poorly coded) .

We use quite a bit of javascript here at work and i have not had any problems with my javascripts in safari if they are properly written.

some people only test in explorer so they never realize their coding errors, explorer for windows is pretty forgiving.

[Freg3000]

Apple would be smart to do incremental updates ever 2 months or so to get safari running tip-top shape. They should not update it once a year at expos, or including it as a "feature" of a new OS.

While I have had some problems (admittedly much less than some other people have had) it i most definitely my primary browser. IE out of my dock. And believe me that is a big deal-everything is in my dock. Once it goes it, it does not come out. I don't like change.

But I don't like IE even more than I don't like change. :)

[kansast]

not sure what all the fuss is about either. I have been very happy with Safari.. my primary Browser. I occasionally need to use Camino, but that's just when I'm trying to use one specific feature of my online banking service. on a regular basis I can use Safari.. the only problem I have is if I want to "Transfer Funds" from one account to another.. then I have to use Camino for that session.

[Capt Underpants]

Doesn't surprise me a bit that safari 1.0 was rushed. That piece of software had more bugs in in than something that has a whole lot of bugs in it. Hopefully they will fix these and get a stable browser out soon.

[macomposer]

Like others, I find Safari's performance on Javascript pages to be uneven. ESPN.com is an example: sometimes it loads fine, sometimes the formatting is all screwy, sometimes there are no scrollbars, etc.

I'd like to see Safari offer some user settings on caching. As I am usually on a broadband connection, I've really no need to have a bunch of stuff cached, and would love to be able to turn off caching. I consider inaccurate (old) image rendering to be more of a problem than milliseconds-slower load times.

And, I agree with the crowd: 1.0 seems to crash more than any prior version, and though this is seemingly unrelated, even more so since the most recent Security Update.

Still, it is my primary browser and it beats the pants off of IE.

[mrdrumbum]

with 1.0 i can't even use buymusic.com, the best music store in the world! hahaha, dream on blum, dream on. i hope 1.1 crashes every time someone even tries to load that site. with a warning message "for your own good."

[sweetaction]

That over agressive caching sucks. I update info on page where it should refresh and it doesnt look like it did anything because it thinks it know what it should show me. bad bad bad.

I still cant log into Bank of America by hitting "enter" I must click the submit button. Lame.


Originally posted by MrMacman
I find it great, I don't know what everyone is humbugging about.

I find it wonderful, almost bug free, execpt for some site specific things.

I don't see any security problems, I don't need to update every 10 seconds, therefore it is better then the competition.

[iStream]

I have also had many problems with Safari displaying pages incorrectly, throughout all the betas and including 1.0. For those of you who like Mozilla but do not like the long startup time and other bloated aspects of the software, check out Mozilla Firebird, which is basically a stripped down version of Mozilla: http://www.mozilla.org/products/firebird/

[hayesk]

Originally posted by vancenase
ya just have to hit the refresh button ....

BUT ... most of the games at yahoo.com are not compatible! :( anyone find any other sites? :)

http://www.popcap.com

It'll take you to the Mac games, but click on Web games instead - they all work.

www.gamehouse.com works too.

[edenwaith]

At a job where I used to work, I had problems with my co-workers using IE. I would make a modification to the web site, check it with Netscape...everything looked great. Then I'd let my supervisor know about the changes, and she would respond that there were no changes. So I would have to open up Netscape on her computer and show that the changes, had indeed, been done. I had to do this multiple times, even after telling her that IE uses a lot of caching techniques and doesn't update pages very well.

[GeeYouEye]

It's a friggin' 1.0, people! C'mon, how many pieces of 1.0 software aren't buggy. I'd chalk this up to just being a 1.0 than anything else. Fortunately, the bugs aren't in WebCore, apparently... OmniWeb 4.5 works GREAT!

[jaedreth]

Lynx / Safari.

IE found it's way off my dock, then back on when I was having specific issues with specific sites, but it's way down on the right (ie not used much, especially since I mostly keep it booted into console, thus use lynx)

I know, I know, very few sites are lynx compatible these days.

I just deal with it...

Jaedreth

[Vlade]

Safari caused me an extra hour of work figuring out why my router wasn't working (I couldn't log into it)... it turns out safari wasn't working and my router was fine

[mnb]

This is just all part of the 'start up mode' that is in place at Apple. One wonders when they'll ever finish starting up. I've worked for alot of startups and most of them had more commitment to design up front (as opposed to on the fly) and product quality than Apple has for the last several years.

Safari was clearly not ready. Given the alternatives available (Camino, Mozilla) there was no excuse to rush Safari out.

IMO OS X is still not ready to be called a 1.0 release. Printing and SCSI are both in horrid shape and kernel panics are far too common for a released Unix system. I should get one kernel panic a year on a heavily used system, not 3 a month. Compare the fit and finish of OS 9.2.2 to OS X 10.2.6 and you can easily see that OS X is immature. Sure, it has some great things and some great potential. But that doesn't mean it was ready to ship.

Apple's startup mode is slowly eroding it away. Products like iPhoto that are designed on the fly show that while there are some good ideas in the product, that this type of development process is majorly flawed. iPhoto is a total slug. Even with relatively small libraries. I shudder to think of the experience of a Soccer Mom on even a dual 1.25 GHz with a gig of RAM.

Middle Management at Apple needs to start being accountable for their jobs. If there is a mandate that conflicts with doing their job well, grow a pair, stand up and fight for it. It's your responsibility to do so! There's far too much ostrichism going on, too much burying of heads in the sand. Stand up tall! Open your eyes! Take Action!

Steve needs to STOP micro managing every project. While he can at times be visionary and brilliant, he's far from a UI or design expert.

And for god's sake, stop piling features on a sluggish, unoptimized, rushed out OS. Commit to tightening it up and making the OS FAST. Stop trying to hide speed issues by shipping dual processor configs. You're not fooling anyone. Everone knows OS X is slow. FIX IT. You've got the talent, just commit to the effot. Believe me, it'll be more than worth it.

[jaedreth]

Yeah. I used to work there, I know what kind of micromanagement goes on.

And the OS is very immature.

They should have gone with a more honest naming structure, right now, Mac OS X should be considered v 1.2.6, which is still a 1.x release.

In my system 7 days, I always advised my clients to avoid any software in the 1.x phase, wait til it went 2.1 at least.

Now it's *tons* better than the public beta, but it should be. I supported the public beta all the way up to 10.2.6 (I left the company that recently)...

However, it is not a mature operating system.

No matter how many people tell me how great it is, and it may be great, it may be better than Windows, that doesn't make it mature.

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably be one of the first in line when Panther is released, besides those who pre-order it. (I dislike pre-ordering.)

But the OS is *far* from mature.

Jaedreth

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by edenwaith
At a job where I used to work, I had problems with my co-workers using IE. I would make a modification to the web site, check it with Netscape...everything looked great. Then I'd let my supervisor know about the changes, and she would respond that there were no changes. So I would have to open up Netscape on her computer and show that the changes, had indeed, been done. I had to do this multiple times, even after telling her that IE uses a lot of caching techniques and doesn't update pages very well.

IE has settings for caching, the default is to cache very aggressivley, but you can change the setting to check for an updated page on every visit. As a Web developer i've run across this issue with many clients who complain it takes a day or two for them to see updates to their site. So i have to explain to them its because of the default IE settings and instruct them on how to change it. This applies to both mac and windows versions.

[daveL]

MacOS Rumors is indicating that there will probably be a Safari update in August.

http://www.macosrumors.com/

Looks like they are making progress, although I've been using Safari since the first public beta without many problems. I think it blew up on me once, but that might have been under Panther beta. My bank site works fine. Anyway, it's been stable and reliable for me.

Also, for MNB:

Man, your smokin' something. I've been running Jaguar every day, all day, for nearly 9 months. I put it into sleep mode every day for months without rebooting. I have *never* had a kernel panic. I have never run out of memory (i.e. memory leaks in apps over time). There is nothing shoddy or immature about it. Apple has been very responsive with updates and improvements.

I think you're trolling.

[darkmynded_one]

Originally posted by mnb
IMO OS X is still not ready to be called a 1.0 release. Printing and SCSI are both in horrid shape and kernel panics are far too common for a released Unix system. I should get one kernel panic a year on a heavily used system, not 3 a month. Compare the fit and finish of OS 9.2.2 to OS X 10.2.6 and you can easily see that OS X is immature. Sure, it has some great things and some great potential. But that doesn't mean it was ready to ship.

You, My Friend, have wayyy too much to complain about. First of all What does this have to do with the post at hand. And 2nd what are you doing and what system are you running to get 3 kernal panics a month..

I have been using OX since the 10.1 release and I use it as graphics production computer and I have never had a kernal panic (knock on wood) ... My computer gets restarted once a month at the most and thats usually by my own volition or because i installed something requiring restart. A kernal panic i have yet to experience. And I am not even running one of latest systems. I am running a G4350AGP and even running OSX its a work horse.. maybe not as fast or polished as 9.2.2, But A. there was no further Apple could go with OS9 they had to move on. B. the system OS9 was based off had what over 15yrs of development and they reached their limit with it so they had to move on.

And thats what they did they moved on and started from the ground up and produced a beautiful operating system that runs better with each new release and has none of the backwards compatability issues that windows users experience year after year release after release.

And as far as the original post goes. I am proud to say that I use safari as my main browser and I have only one site that has given me problems and it winds up being a cookie based problem. (theforce.net (speciffically the jedicouncil forums and being able to stay logged in) And it runs fast and works beatifully and its only a 1.0 release (its a known fact that all 1.0 releases have bugs) so that means it can only get better.

So many people with too much time to complain.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by crassusad44
If it had been Microsoft who made Safari, we would be at 1.0 at the first Public Beta. Safari 1.0 would be SP1 or something.


Actually, while the first public beta would have been named "1.0", the second public beta "2.0" and the final release "3.0" (or, potentially, "6.0" just to keep us geeks guessing), there would have been a minimum of one year between each of those releases, a dozen security patches that broke earlier security patches, and at least three other companies would have gone under after their proprietary technology mysteriously showed up in the next release of Safari.

Every day I wake up and thank God that there are software developers besides Microsoft ...

[edenwaith]

Originally posted by jaedreth
Lynx / Safari.

I know, I know, very few sites are lynx compatible these days.


I used Lynx for about a year, so I try and keep my own web sites at least accessible to Lynx users. I probably don't get many visitors using Lynx, but as long as they can navigate through my pages, I'm fine with it. I think some of my pages are probably easier to get through than Netscape 4.7.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by serpicolugnut
Rushed? What difference would it make to ANY of you (who are complaining), whether Apple dubbed the current release version 1.0, or beta 3? Absolutely none. Apple is working to make Safari the best it can be, and every release brings it closer.


No, "1.0" means ready for public consumption. "Beta 3" means it may inadvertently format your hard drive if it can't connect to a web site; use at your own risk.

OTOH, I find Safari 1.0 to be incredibly un-buggy for a 1.0 product. Every application ever written has bugs, design failings, and missing features. While Safari 1.0 doesn't perfectly emulate Internet Explorer, it does a damned good job at rendering standard-compliant web sites.

Regarding 1.0 vs betas ... I ran the last public beta for quite a while, and was averaging a crash on it every other day. In fact, one particular web site (www.tomshardware.com) would crash every beta of Safari aside from the initial version (which just wouldn't display it correctly), and another web site (www.extremetech.com) would crash the final public beta any time one was unfortunate enough to use the "back" button. Also, using tabs was inherently unstable in the last public beta (start loading a page on one tab and switch to another tab before the first tab's connection was made and you'd have about a 30% chance of hitting the spinning beach ball of death and, about two minutes later, an "unexpected" crash).

1.0 is a HUGE stability improvement for me. With the Debug menu on, I can tell Safari to send in Internet Explorer ID's, and can hit every financial institution that I work with without problems. In fact, the ONLY stability/compatibility issue I have with Safari 1.0 is that it "times out" when a reply takes >60 seconds in coming back (like, say, a web application that does actual processing ...)

[Nsx123]

safari will be a great browser in 1 to 2 years. For now it's just good and has bugs. The caching is bad you notice it if you browse and post in a lot of forums. The page will not refresh but show a chache of the page with out new posts. Some websites still do not work right and have content missing. Safari, yes a good browser but not a great browser yet.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by mnb
IMO OS X is still not ready to be called a 1.0 release. Printing and SCSI are both in horrid shape and kernel panics are far too common for a released Unix system. I should get one kernel panic a year on a heavily used system, not 3 a month. Compare the fit and finish of OS 9.2.2 to OS X 10.2.6 and you can easily see that OS X is immature. Sure, it has some great things and some great potential. But that doesn't mean it was ready to ship.


3 kernel panics a month? You have some bad hardware in there somewhere.

I have not had an OS X system crash for over a year. No crashes since I installed Jaguar, in fact.

No, I don't have any funky hardware attached, but you can rest assured that I do my best at trying to corrupt system memory while debugging my programs :)

IMHO, and this is the basis of many a religious war I know, the "fit and finish" of OS X is vastly superior to that of OS 9.2.2. They aren't even in the same league. Does OS X have inconsistencies? Of course. But OS 9 had many more conceptual difficulties than OS X by my count. As I said, IMHO.

[VIREBEL661]

Rushed as it may be, and with far less $ resources than anything m$ does, I think it's a great browser overall... And definately better than IE... I actually LIKE IE, and wish m$ would develop it further for the Mac (I mean, they're supposed to be a software company, right?)... But for now - Safari is my favorite..

[jbomber]

Originally posted by VIREBEL661
Rushed as it may be, and with far less $ resources than anything m$ does, I think it's a great browser overall... And definately better than IE... I actually LIKE IE, and wish m$ would develop it further for the Mac (I mean, they're supposed to be a software company, right?)... But for now - Safari is my favorite..

Yeah i feel exactly the same way about both browsers.

One of my few nit-picky complaints about Safari is the "Download image" function. it saves it to a default location and doesn't let you specify per image...

[AppleMatt]

Just because *you* have had a perfect time with OS X doesn't mean everyone else has. Don't jump down people's thrats just for saying what's happened to them on their machines.

I agree, in some repects, that OS X is immature. However in others it's way advanced. For that reason OS X is my main system.

However you have to bear in mind that OS 9 was 15 (17?) years of tweaking, nipping and tucking. OS X is a baby in comparison. It'll evolve over time to become a fantastic OS. Panthers already shaping up.

About these 'rumored' Safari 90+ builds, surely we would have heard about them? I want them, if I could stop Safari unexpectedly quitting on my favorite forum every time I post, I'd be a happy chappy.

AppleMatt

[3.1416]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
Safari was clearly not ready. Given the alternatives available (Camino, Mozilla) there was no excuse to rush Safari out.

Disagree on both counts. Safari has been as stable as any other browser, and *far* better than IE, for months now. And it's important that Apple have an "official" browser after MS dropped Mac IE. Camino isn't at 1.0 yet (even though it's still my primary browser), and Mozilla just isn't Mac-like.

I should get one kernel panic a year on a heavily used system, not 3 a month.

Correct. Therefore something is seriously wrong with your system, quite possibly hardware-related.

Compare the fit and finish of OS 9.2.2 to OS X 10.2.6 and you can easily see that OS X is immature. Sure, it has some great things and some great potential. But that doesn't mean it was ready to ship.

Are you seriously saying that OS X should not yet have shipped? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. I'll grant that 10.0 was really public beta 2, but since 10.1 it's been more than capable for full-time use.

Commit to tightening it up and making the OS FAST. Stop trying to hide speed issues by shipping dual processor configs. You're not fooling anyone. Everone knows OS X is slow. FIX IT.

They are. 10.1 was faster than 10.0. 10.2 was faster than 10.1. By all accounts 10.3 will be faster still.

[AppleMatt]

errr 3.1416 you've quoted me for something I didn't say, can you edit it please.

Thanks,
AppleMatt

[gopher]

Originally posted by mrdrumbum
with 1.0 i can't even use buymusic.com, the best music store in the world! hahaha, dream on blum, dream on. i hope 1.1 crashes every time someone even tries to load that site. with a warning message "for your own good."

Untrue. Use http://www.lordofthecows.com/safari_enhancer.php

Safari Enhancer. With the Debug menu select User Agent as Internet Explorer 6 for Windows, and Buymusic will let you in.

[rjwill246]

Originally posted by jaedreth
Yeah. I used to work there, I know what kind of micromanagement goes on.

And the OS is very immature.
Now it's *tons* better than the public beta, but it should be. I supported the public beta all the way up to 10.2.6 (I left the company that recently)...

However, it is not a mature operating system.

No matter how many people tell me how great it is, and it may be great, it may be better than Windows, that doesn't make it mature.

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably be one of the first in line when Panther is released, besides those who pre-order it. (I dislike pre-ordering.)

But the OS is *far* from mature.

Jaedreth


So the point is........?
Mac OS X is not mature! Hello? Of course it's not. Windoze is not mature and it's got many years on OS X. Will it reach a level of stabiltity and "maturity" you desire? Of course it will. Apple is not stupid... they will eventually give you a very mature stable OS with a flexible browser. Just wait a bit. They haven't had that long to get it right. M$ has had much longer and they still have not, and likely will never, get it right. Meanwhile. I have yet to see a kernel panic, use the system every day, all day and it really works.
So your point is?

[burntoutjoy]

* burntoutjoy, in his superman form, pulls the thread back onto the rails *

I have been using Safari full-time since the first betas. Yes, it does crash (but not too often for it to be mightily annoying), and some (*very* few, for me at least) web sites don't display properly. The only site that actually hasn't functioned is Fileplanet, but then again, who'd want to touch that if they can help it (and that's fixed now anyway). Oh, and the sucky, sucky Odeon UK site. Which sucks very badly.

But that's it! I haven't used any other browser on my iBook for aaages, and it's fine. Version 1.0? No. It's just a little too buggy for v1.0. Iron out them, and great, go for it. My biig wants are more funky tab control (an 'Always open target="_blank" links in new tab' option) and being able to right click on bookmarks in a folder on the Bar would be funky-as (though that's really a Cocoa problem, rather than Safari). Java support is also dodgy in the extreme. And making the Download Manager nicer would be a bonus.

[WM.]

Originally posted by mnb
This is just all part of the 'start up mode' that is in place at Apple. One wonders when they'll ever finish starting up. I've worked for alot of startups and most of them had more commitment to design up front (as opposed to on the fly) and product quality than Apple has for the last several years.

Safari was clearly not ready. Given the alternatives available (Camino, Mozilla) there was no excuse to rush Safari out.

IMO OS X is still not ready to be called a 1.0 release. Printing and SCSI are both in horrid shape and kernel panics are far too common for a released Unix system. I should get one kernel panic a year on a heavily used system, not 3 a month. Compare the fit and finish of OS 9.2.2 to OS X 10.2.6 and you can easily see that OS X is immature. Sure, it has some great things and some great potential. But that doesn't mean it was ready to ship.

Apple's startup mode is slowly eroding it away. Products like iPhoto that are designed on the fly show that while there are some good ideas in the product, that this type of development process is majorly flawed. iPhoto is a total slug. Even with relatively small libraries. I shudder to think of the experience of a Soccer Mom on even a dual 1.25 GHz with a gig of RAM.

Middle Management at Apple needs to start being accountable for their jobs. If there is a mandate that conflicts with doing their job well, grow a pair, stand up and fight for it. It's your responsibility to do so! There's far too much ostrichism going on, too much burying of heads in the sand. Stand up tall! Open your eyes! Take Action!

Steve needs to STOP micro managing every project. While he can at times be visionary and brilliant, he's far from a UI or design expert.

And for god's sake, stop piling features on a sluggish, unoptimized, rushed out OS. Commit to tightening it up and making the OS FAST. Stop trying to hide speed issues by shipping dual processor configs. You're not fooling anyone. Everone knows OS X is slow. FIX IT. You've got the talent, just commit to the effot. Believe me, it'll be more than worth it.
I just couldn't resist:

This is just all part of the "troll mode" that is in place in these forums. One wonders when you'll ever stop trolling. I've seen a lot of trolls and most of them had more commitment to post planning up front (as opposed to on the fly), not hitting the space bar twice every third space, and post quality than you have for the last several posts.

Your post was clearly not ready. Given the alternatives available (3.1416, rjwill246) there was no excuse to rush it out.

IMO your post is still not ready to be called a 1.0 release. Grammar and spell-checking are still in horrid shape and typos are far too common for a post on MacRumors. There should be one typo a post on a long one, not 3 a paragraph. Compare the fit and finish of rjwill246's posts to yours and you can easily see that you are immature. Sure, your post has some great things and some great potential. But that doesn't mean it was ready to post.

Your troll mode is slowly eroding you away. Posts like this one that are written on the fly show that while there are some good ideas in the post, that this type of writing process is majorly flawed. You are a total slug. Even with relatively simple concepts. I shudder to think of the experience of a Soccer Mom on these forums.

Middle Management in your brain needs to start being accountable for their jobs. If there is a mandate that conflicts with doing their job well, grow a pair, stand up and fight for it. It's your responsibility to do so! There's far too much ostrichism going on, too much burying of heads in the sand. Stand up tall! Open your eyes! Take Action!

You need to STOP trolling in every thread. While you can at times be visionary and brilliant, you're far from an Apple or Mac expert.

And for god's sake, stop piling words on a sluggish, unoptimized, rushed out post. Commit to tightening it up and making the post CLEAR. Stop trying to hide intelligence issues by writing posts that are twice as long. You're not fooling anyone. Everone knows you're a troll. FIX IT. You've got the talent, just commit to the effo(r)t. Believe me, it'll be more than worth it.

--------------

No offense intended--really! I don't think you're really a troll, and I know there are a few things above that are blatantly untrue. PLEASE take it as a joke and not a personal attack. I apologize a thousand times. I won't do it again. But like I said, I couldn't resist. :D

Sorry again
WM

(Note: some typos/spelling errors from the parent post left in for effect. Don't flame me for them--they're there on purpose!)

(Edited three times for clarity and accuracy)

[ryaxnb]

I think Safari is pretty cool, and I'm using it right now. I have several others, but Safari's my primary browser. Also, I think it crashes less than IE, so calling it "Crashy" seems like an overstatement when comparing to IE.
Note: No offense; don't take the icon seriously.

[AppleMatt]

We call it crashy because Apple apps just don't crash.

Also it's usually on specific sites, indicating an underlying problem rather than random buggyness.

AppleMatt

[papaash]

...I don't think it is...it runs smoother than all the betas before it, the tab surfing feature is nearly flawless, and it's blazingly fast...

...there is one bulletin board (http://pub116.ezboard.com/ftimezone39828frm1) I visit where I post politics that often crashes Safari; I always report the bugs so Apple knows what's going on...also, there are two sites I specifically use for my job, but my company is married and screwed by Micro$oft, and the sites run optimally under Internet Explorer (though, in an ugly twist, it's not compatible with IE for OS X for some reason)...

...for the former problem, I just use Mozilla (which runs without a hitch), so I think there's some bad code on that board that Safari can't resolve...as for the latter problem, I experienced the same problem on my PC when using Netscape, so I think it's just a browser incompatibility issue...

...anyway, I think Safari's the best browser I've ever used...more streamlined than Mozilla, more features than Opera, worlds faster than IE, and no where near as infuriating as Netscape 6...I love it!...