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void
Jul 25, 2003, 10:14 AM
Can i only put 2 HD's into a G5? If so, that is a huuuuuuuge step backwards...(My dad needs storage for DV)

Capt Underpants
Jul 25, 2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by void
Can i only put 2 HD's into a G5? If so, that is a huuuuuuuge step backwards...(My dad needs storage for DV)

Yes indeed that is true, however, you could get a firewire hard drive if it came down to it.

daveL
Jul 25, 2003, 12:08 PM
Really, I mean you can only put 0.5 TB of storage in it ... plus whatever FW800 will handle ... plus Xserve RAID on a PCI FiberChannel card. It's really very limiting. Right.

e-coli
Jul 25, 2003, 12:25 PM
My guess is that the rumored "blackrider" is a sort of FW800 Raid.

Wait a few. Something nice might come down the pipe.

But hard drives are so big these days, having more than two is just...well...overkill for most people. Just remember, you have to back those things up at some point. You'll be burning DVD's all week.

RHutch
Jul 25, 2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by void
Can i only put 2 HD's into a G5? If so, that is a huuuuuuuge step backwards...(My dad needs storage for DV)

How many drives do you want/need? 2 x 250 G seems like plenty to me. Someone else already mentioned plenty of alernatives, but I would think that you wouldn't even need those. Would you really need to have nearly 500 G on your drives at once? Wouldn't some (most) of that stuff get burned to DVD or CD regularly?

I don't think that this is a step backward at all, and I wouldn't cry about it.

iPC
Jul 25, 2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by RHutch
How many drives do you want/need? 2 x 250 G seems like plenty to me. Someone else already mentioned plenty of alernatives, but I would think that you wouldn't even need those. Would you really need to have nearly 500 G on your drives at once? Wouldn't some (most) of that stuff get burned to DVD or CD regularly?

I don't think that this is a step backward at all, and I wouldn't cry about it.
2 hdd and one optical drive in a case that big is a waste... 500GB isn't that much space anymore.

MacAztec
Jul 25, 2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by iPC
2 hdd and one optical drive in a case that big is a waste... 500GB isn't that much space anymore.

How so? I have 1 80GB drive, and 1 35GB drive. My 80GB is for storage (Music/Movies). I havent even nearly filled it up. I have about 48 movies, and 6GB of Music! AND, I have like 15GB of Apps (.dmg, .sit) and games!

My dad bought a powermac g4 a while back for a business that was pretty much all DV editing and stuff. He had 4x 35GB IBM Drives in it. It was enough back then...

And, SATA is going to be at 500GB per drive next year, so 1TB of storage isnt going to be enough? Thats a LOT of video in uncompressed format. Get a DVD Burner, and burn your finished projects on DVDs. If they are too big, get an external LaCie drive, I believe they go up to 400GB.

patrick0brien
Jul 25, 2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by iPC
500GB isn't that much space anymore.

-iPC

For what?!? I mean 500GB - Oh say 50GB for your everyday stuff so that leaves you with 450GB for video - Yikes!

Thats more than 35 hours of video.

Are our standards a little high?

Hodapp
Jul 25, 2003, 01:27 PM
I also agree it is a step backwards. I'm currently a PC user interested in purchasing a G5. Having two hard-drive spaces seems faily primative. I'm currently running a 4 drive RAID 0 array in my PC, plus a 2 drive RAID 1 array for my super-important stuff. And my case STILL has room for more drives. Also, only one optical drive seems stupid too. No disc to disc copying of anything. My current PC setup is like this:

5.25 Drive Bays:

CD-R Drive
DVD-R Drive
DVD-ROM Drive
Removable HD Caddy (My 'data bucket' for going to and from work)

3.5 Drive Bays:
Floppy Drive
Media Reader

AND the 6 Internal HD's on top of that.

To get anywhere near the functionality, storage space, or versitility of my PC the G5 is going to have to have a jungle of stuff connected via firewire and USB... when everything is internal on my PC, reducing clutter about 10 fold. Not to mention the added costs of expensive external devices. :rolleyes:

I don't know.... I mean, I like the G5, but if apple is going to make all the hardware proprietary they should at least have the courtesy to allow for a little room to expand. The G5 seems more like an appliance than a computer. To the people saying "Hook up an Xserve via the Fiber Channel: Why should I have to buy THOUSANDS of dollars in hardware to have a RAID array when on a PC you can have completely integrated RAID for nothing more than the cost of the drives plus around $100 for a decent RAID card?

This is my biggest beef about the G5 right now :\

sky131
Jul 25, 2003, 01:32 PM
I agree with io_burn about the G5 being more like an appliance than a computer. I heard that it will be a combo food dehydrator, smootie machine, and toaster oven. Oh wait, it does none of these...

In fact, it is nothing like an appliance.

I am a film student and do tons of DV editing and feel that if you are serious into DV editing then you will be accustomed to using firewire hard disks. 500GB is tons of space. In fact, if you have this much DV on your system you are really wasting resources. Name your tapes properly and keep your project files. Then if you have to side project something for a few months it only takes an hour to recapture the video. There is nothing worse than a hard drive filled with 100s of GB of DV. Ugh.

Hodapp
Jul 25, 2003, 01:41 PM
Whereby 'appliance' I mean like a network appliance such as a Firewall or a VPN that you can upgrade to a very low set minimum due to hardware expansion restrictions, perhaps more memory, or a WiFi card... but it does what it does, and is what it is without being able to be much more than that. ...Not like a blender.

The limited internal expansion capabilities of the G5 make it seem fairly similar to one of the firewalls we have in our datacenter at work. The firewall does its job, and does it well... As would the G5. But because of the expansion restrictions it will never be more than that.

I'd rather the G5 case be taller, or wider, or ANYTHING to allow even a reasonable amount of internal expansion. Expecting everyone who wants more space, or more optical drives, or more anything to buy external stuff to clutter your desk is ridiculous.

But that's just from a PC user's perspective, I suppose... So take it as a grain of salt. I'm just used to going out, buying another HD and plopping it in. Rather than going out, buying another HD, buy another hub to plug it in, wrestle through the jungle of cords to do so, then stack it on top the plethora of other crap plugged in to my computer. :o

bennetsaysargh
Jul 25, 2003, 01:43 PM
i would love to have 1 500Gb HD non the less 2. hard drive space shouldn't be an issue for that, unless if you jump around from project to project. i honestly can't live with a 40GB HD. i need more space for editing my soon to be shot DV footage.

sky131
Jul 25, 2003, 01:46 PM
io_burn, I agree with you on this point. At the current time I only own a 17" PB with external firewire harddrives to edit video with on FCP. I used to run a PC with 4 internal harddrives, and know where you are coming from.

The thing I need to always remember is that when you buy from Apple you sacrifice a little bit of customability for a lot of reliability. I am far from a techy, but space is kept to a minimum in the G5 case to allow the Star Trek cooling system to do its thang thang. In the PC world if you have a problem, you just go buy a new case and cram ten different things in it.

sky131
Jul 25, 2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
i would love to have 1 500Gb HD non the less 2. hard drive space shouldn't be an issue for that, unless if you jump around from project to project. i honestly can't live with a 40GB HD. i need more space for editing my soon to be shot DV footage.

Don't get me wrong, 40GB is not adequate. I think that 120GB is sufficient for most people's use (including small scale video editing, meaning short films) and the G5 comes stock with 160GB. I would advise you to make a number of short films versus a feature, especially if it is the first thing you are going to be producing. In school there is a good saying: don't shoot until you are prepared to finish.

Daveman Deluxe
Jul 25, 2003, 02:26 PM
I suspect that there's a good reason there are only two drive slots in the G5.

For the average user (who probably won' get a G5 anyway) 500 GB is more than enough for a lifetime (then again, that's what they said about 10 MB hard disks in 1985). For the prosumers, 500 GB should be adequate, and it's not difficult to archive old project files. Not only that, but there's FireWire 800 to hook up more hard disks. For the REAL professionals, there's fibre-channel to hook up to an Xserve RAID.

My two bits.

Mephisto
Jul 25, 2003, 02:29 PM
I have 1.25 tb of space on my MDD, thas a lot, i know...but its mine and i want it! The fact that the G5 only has 2 bays is not a dealbreaker, but is unfortunate.

bennetsaysargh
Jul 25, 2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Mephisto
I have 1.25 tb of space on my MDD, thas a lot, i know...but its mine and i want it! The fact that the G5 only has 2 bays is not a dealbreaker, but is unfortunate.

1.25TB!:eek:
that's a whole lot of space you got!:eek: :eek:

patrick0brien
Jul 25, 2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Mephisto
I have 1.25 tb of space on my MDD

-Mephisto

Holy Mother of Pizza! How do you back that up?!?

Hodapp
Jul 25, 2003, 03:09 PM
If he's smart that's a RAID 5 array that doesn't require backing up :)

iJon
Jul 25, 2003, 03:22 PM
it really does suck. apple made the case bigger and they still cant fit it all in there. they went from 4 bays to 2 and 2 cd bays to 1. i was starting to get excited when the MDD's came out, now we are back at square one. and all this talk about fw800 and all that. sure you can do it and its nice, but what about when you need to take your powermac somewhere, it really sucks gathering all those drives and firewire cables. i know for me i would never use 500 GB, but i know video professions who edit HD TV and all other formats and they want all the storage they can get.

iJon

Mephisto
Jul 25, 2003, 03:23 PM
Its not backedup!!!
Its mostly DVDr that I burn off, then add more, and burn those off too.
The rest is Mp3s that if i ever lost, id die of 6 simultaneous heartattacks.
4 drives in the box, 2 dual external firewire dealies. 8 possible HDs, not to mention the singleHD enclosure that I have ( would make 9bays). i may start archiving my mp3s to dvd soon as blueray is out n about :)

daveL
Jul 25, 2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by io_burn
If he's smart that's a RAID 5 array that doesn't require backing up :)
First of all, RAID 5 is the last thing you would use for write intensive i/o. This is especially true is you are doing host-based RAID, i.e. no hardware RAID controller that offloads the parity calculations.

Secondly, RAID 5 will *not* protect you from a double failure, so backups are still required.

CrackedButter
Jul 25, 2003, 04:27 PM
If hard drives were any bigger then we would have more storage, its only because HD manufactures havn't made a single drive bigger than 300GB. I'm sure if they had bigger hd's we would have more space.

sky131
Jul 25, 2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by CrackedButter
If hard drives were any bigger then we would have more storage, its only because HD manufactures havn't made a single drive bigger than 300GB. I'm sure if they had bigger hd's we would have more space.

Uh, yeah, enlightening point. "I'm sure if they had bigger hd's we would have more space." I guess that is how it works huh?

MacsRgr8
Jul 25, 2003, 05:24 PM
You want more than 500 GB?

You get an XRaid.

applemacdude
Jul 25, 2003, 07:05 PM
I think 500gb is alot but 1.25tb..i guess a like 5 years thatll be our standard.

bubbagump
Jul 28, 2003, 09:56 AM
Yeah, 500 gigs might be a little small when the script kiddies get around to ripping HD DVDs, or whatever they call the new video disc technology. Seriously though, if your dad needs more than 500 gigs, it sounds like he is editting uncompressed video. In that case it might even be a requirement to use a solution like the Xraid.

AngryAngel
Jul 28, 2003, 12:10 PM
There are other reasons why you would want more bays.

For example: I could just put my old computer's HDDs in the new tower. (But, Apple has not left enough room to allow a PATA=>SATA converter to be fitted to the drive, so that option is pretty much out anyway.)

It is not cost-effective to buy 250GB SATA drives now, as they are too expensive per GB. 80GB or 120GB drives offer the best price per GB. So if I upgrade with another 120GB now, I'll not have room to upgrade with a 300GB drive when they are the cheapest per GB (in 2-3 years).

With a G4, I could do both these things.

patrick0brien
Jul 28, 2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by AngryAngel
With a G4, I could do both these things.

-AngryAngel

Very true. But if you may recall, RAM and HD's were just as, if not more expensive (expecially adjusted for inflation) when the G4 was introduced.

This is the price (literally) we pay for LAGS (Latest-And-Greatest Syndrome).

AngryAngel
Jul 28, 2003, 04:39 PM
When any of the G4's were introduced, they were compatible with older HD's, so easy to bring old data onto the new machine and have some extra storage.

Patrick, the point I was making was that if I had upgraded (for example) a G4 866MHz with a 60GB drive (cheapest per GB at the time), it would still have space for a 120GB drive now. And a 300GB drive in two years' time when that is the cheapest per GB.

If I do a reasonably-priced HD upgrade on purchasing a G5, I will have no more bays free in the future.

That fact that huge HD are available now doesn't mean we should just accept that Apple doesn't have an expandable pro-desktop case.

There have always been HDDs of a size that you could have said were huge (like the 250/300GB drives today), but before there have pretty much always been more than two internal bays.

We pay a large premium on Apple hardware (compare 1.6GHz G5 with a P4 3.0GHz) and we have no alternative manufacturers to choose from. Having the pro case with only one optical drive and only two HD bays that don't accept even older drives (because the P->S ATA converters don't fit) isn't a brilliant situation.

Anyway, I know this is the price I pay for being a Mac user. Apple can only fund it's innovation through high hardware pricing.

The G5 case is revolutionary and a design leap, but it would have been a greater one if it had not made compromises in expandability.

-Ben

(awaiting a 1.6GHz G5 with combo-drive, no modem, 9600 pro, 1.25GB RAM and 17" NEC 1760 LCD)

sky131
Jul 28, 2003, 06:04 PM
FW800, 'NUFF SAID.

nuckinfutz
Jul 29, 2003, 01:49 AM
If I do a reasonably-priced HD upgrade on purchasing a G5, I will have no more bays free in the future

So what. You had one opportunity to upgrade your drive. You premise seems to be based on what's economically advantageous to you. Apple must consider their own needs as well.

That fact that huge HD are available now doesn't mean we should just accept that Apple doesn't have an expandable pro-desktop case.

It is expandable. Apple needn't be hampered by supporting your legacy equipment. They are damnded if they do damned if they don't.

We pay a large premium on Apple hardware (compare 1.6GHz G5 with a P4 3.0GHz) and we have no alternative manufacturers to choose from. Having the pro case with only one optical drive and only two HD bays that don't accept even older drives (because the P->S ATA converters don't fit) isn't a brilliant situation.

Just compared :

Dell Dimension 8300
256MB RAM
80GB HD
P4 3.0Ghz
Soundblaster live
Basic Speakers
Gigabit
XP Pro
DVD Burner
Geforce 5200
No Monitor /Floppy
56k Modem

$2056.00

Just where is this mythical HUGE PREMIUM ?? Apples are well configured and have been for years. They may not be the fastest but they come loaded generally.

Extra Drive bays would be nice but Apple focused on cooling over internal expansion. A tradeoff to be sure but I doubt many will be adversey affected. Professionals having been using Server based storage for years. I use Server storage at work for important files. It's the person with 4 old drives sitting around that wants to stuff them in the box that is complaining the most here. Hardly Professional.

SLJ
Jul 29, 2003, 04:30 AM
Seriously, by the time G5 is mature... approx 6 moths time from now or xmas... I am sure the SATA hard driver will go beyond what we could imagine... 2 x HDD is more then your everyday need... what are you going to download everyday? Yes, I know all the DV user eat up HDD... but ask youself seriously... how many GB or TB are you currently using? I am a ex-Windows/PC user.. and I once through one optical drive was a bad idea... but once you use a Mac or take note of what optical to optical do... you dont need 2 drive anyway... chances are you image the CD/DVD to your HD then to your burner.. so what difference it make to us... one less EJECT button and swap a disc... man.. are we getting a bit too lazy.... I think the G5 design is perfect... just right for a STANDARD PC... the entry level of G5 is aim for average Personal Computer user... not a professional DV user or some HIGH END user... Nothing is perfect in this world.. someone must complain about something... if you dont like it, buy something you like man... You are the one who is spending your $... no one is going to force you to buy a G5 or whatever...