More Rumblings of a Microsoft Music Store

[MacRumors]

CNet notes (http://news.com.com/2100-1027-5055392.html) that Microsoft is looking into a Music Store offering:

Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates said his company is exploring ways to develop a music download service similar to Apple Computer's iTunes that would tie into the software giant's multimedia applications

This is only the latest in a series of potential threats to Apple's iTunes Music Store which is due to come to Windows by year's end.

This is not the first time Microsoft has been cited as a player in the digital music downloads market. In June, the LATimes (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030610081105.shtml) even reported that Microsoft had been demoing their version of the Music store. A Microsoft solution would certainly make it more challenging for Apple to make inroads on the Windows platform.

[BaghdadBob]

BuyMusicFromMicrosoft.com.

Yes.

And we all know the DRM is gonna be like, totally groovy from the captains of DRM, right?

[arn]

yeah

I think strict DRM will be Microsoft's major problem. Apple has a more consumer-oriented approach.

hopefully they can get the same rights on the PC.

arn

[goof_ball]

Another typical example of how Microcrap will steal Apple's great idea, force ****ty software on half of all pc users, and make millions of dollars.

errrrrrrrrrr.

[dermeister]

Good, now Apple can HURRY THE HELL UP.

Apple needed a good kick in the ass.

[Pancake]

I don't think Microsoft will enter the field. It's getting crowded quickly. They definately have the money to throw at it to succeed to a point. But I don't think there is a huge payoff for them, they can make as much money licensing their WMP junk to a bunch of people and never have to pay for infastructure.

That being said I hope they do launch one the same exact dat as iTMS for windows and they get their asses whooped. It would also be good if a little old lady because of their online music store.

[BaghdadBob]

Originally posted by arn
Apple has a more consumer-oriented approach.
"Consumers"? Don't you mean "Dollars"? The consumers aren't the issue here, as long as there's a way to make money, what's the big dealio? This is why Apple is going out of business as we speak.

Consumers....HA!

[pourhadi]

This is why Apple is going out of business as we speak.

Ha, we've all heard that before.

[arn]

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
"Consumers"? Don't you mean "Dollars"? The consumers aren't the issue here, as long as there's a way to make money, what's the big dealio? This is why Apple is going out of business as we speak.

I'm not saying consumers interests are their only motivation...

but providing less-stringent DRM is a "consumer friendly" approach.

arn

[chewbaccapits]

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
This is why Apple is going out of business as we speak.



Out of left-field...what would that have to do with anything, even if it was true?

[BaghdadBob]

I must not spend enough time in the news sections lately.

I was kidding guys. I love iTMS, hate Microsoft, and despise all they stand for.

I'm so misunderstood... :D

[Edit:] Currently at 58 tracks from iTMS.

[kristianm]

Apple has one advantage here, they are not a convicted monopoly. This has to be a minefield for MS.

Apple is so small that they can get away with just about everything.

[BaghdadBob]

Yes, actually I read on...either CNET or Fool.com about how wary the entertainment industry is becoming of getting in bed with MS because MS has a history of "opportunistic" business decisions, and a tendancy to make people tied to on whatever technology they bring to the table as part of a partnership.

[jbomber]

Originally posted by dermeister
Good, now Apple can HURRY THE HELL UP.

Apple needed a good kick in the ass.


yeah, i think that kinda sums up my feelings right now. Apple seems to be dragging their feet or something. There're a lot of people waiting anxiously for one thing or another. I hope they're not resting on their laurels after successfully introducing the g5.

[bluedalmatian]

What are people's views on whats holding the Windows version of iTMS up? Is it liscensing ot technical?

[Choppaface]

well, they might not have as big a market on the win platform then, but they'd still be getting customers they'd otherwise not get

[Brother Mugga]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by dermeister
Good, now Apple can HURRY THE HELL UP.

Apple needed a good kick in the ass.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why oh why oh why (etc.) did Apple not have a tested version of iTunes for Windows up and running before breaking cover with iTMS? It's not as if they couldn't predict a slew of wannabe copycats, for heaven's sake.

I have an awful feeling that this might have been yet another lame attempt to drive people into buying a Mac in order to use the site. If so - "DOH!" When are Apple going to realise that the best way to 'switch' people is not to try and twist their arms into spending huge amounts of money on new hardware (and attendant software), but rather to introduce them to little (and relatively cheap) snippets of Apple design (such as the iPod), let them get comfortable with the ease of use etc., and then encourage them to draw the obvious conclusions regarding the larger picture of PC hardware.

Unless there was some kind of behind scenes deal with the record companies that we don't know about, the decision to show their hand before being able to reach about 90% of the market could go down as one of the biggest arse-ups in Apple history.

Brother Mugga

[KLFloyd]

I agree, Apple needs to hurry the heck up with a lot of things.

While I have downloaded about 30 songs from iTMS since it launched, there are probably at least two dozen more that I've wanted to download but are not offered. Some of the songs are by indys, but many of them just simply haven't been added to the store yet. Seems to me that Apple needs to get on the ball with adding songs they already have the rights to.

Second, while I can understand why Apple would want to test such a new concept on a small basis at first (Mac's in the US only) this is a VERY small percentage of the population. Why did they not at the very least at have all the agreements signed for iTunes for Windows before they launched the Mac version. Not only are they working on the software, but they're also having to re-negotiate contracts with the record companies as well. Just seems like they were in such a hurry to rush the product out the door.

I think it's such a shame. Apple obviously has the best product out there all the way around, but because they weren't prepared to push their product into the Windows and international market very quickly after the launch I fear that another company will now take all their work and beat them to the punch line.

[MisterMe]

Originally posted by Brother Mugga
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by dermeister
Good, now Apple can HURRY THE HELL UP.

Apple needed a good kick in the ass.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why oh why oh why (etc.) did Apple not have a tested version of iTunes for Windows up and running before breaking cover with iTMS? It's not as if they couldn't predict a slew of wannabe copycats, for heaven's sake.

I have an awful feeling that this might have been yet another lame attempt to drive people into buying a Mac in order to use the site. If so - "DOH!" When are Apple going to realise that the best way to 'switch' people is not to try and twist their arms into spending huge amounts of money on new hardware (and attendant software), but rather to introduce them to little (and relatively cheap) snippets of Apple design (such as the iPod), let them get comfortable with the ease of use etc., and then encourage them to draw the obvious conclusions regarding the larger picture of PC hardware.

Unless there was some kind of behind scenes deal with the record companies that we don't know about, the decision to show their hand before being able to reach about 90% of the market could go down as one of the biggest arse-ups in Apple history.

Brother Mugga People, people, people! Apple is not a record company. Apple is selling the products of others. Those others dictate what Apple is selling and how it can sell it. Steve Jobs did a lot of heavy lifting to get the Big 5 to agree to this concept.

Now read this because it is really important: The Big 5 agreed to partipate in the iTMS precisely because it was not available to Windows users. In this way, the concept could be proven among a small segment of computer users and in a relative piracy-free environment. In other words: For the first few months of the iTMS, it is US-only and Mac-only because it would not exist otherwise. BuyMusic.com and GiveM$YourMusicMoney.com do not have the same level of cooperation with the record companies. Until they can get competitive agreements, Apple will rule the roost in the online music market.

[Abstract]

Get it on Windows, but please make it international so that people like me, people who WANT to shop at iTMS can get a chance.


Originally posted by dermeister

Apple needed a good kick in the ass.

Make it hard and swift. MarthaStewart is coming, and it's trying to invade like SARS. One bite of the MS cookie, and stupid people will never bite a foreign, but tastier Apple cake.

[Brother Mugga]

Originally posted by KLFloyd
I think it's such a shame. Apple obviously has the best product out there all the way around, but because they weren't prepared to push their product into the Windows and international market very quickly after the launch I fear that another company will now take all their work and beat them to the punch line.

Katie, I couldn't agree more. Apple (and many Macoholics) still seem to labour under the delusion that quality wins out in the end; it's almost as if Betamax/VHS never happened.

And if any company is good at beating (pioneering) others to the punchline, it's clearly Microsoft.

If I were Steve Jobs, I'd be standing over those Windows iTunes coders with a whip right now.


Actually, I really wish I hadn't said that.

I have a nasty feeling that image might stay with me for some time...

Brother Mugga

PS: r.e. MisterMe's comments - I think you might be right (hence my allusion to 'behind scenes deal' with the record companies). However, my concern is that, having done all the heavy lifting, Jobs et al are going to miss out on the tea-party that follows. It's one thing to not go online with a Windows iTunes...it's quite another to not even have one coded-up and ready.

[copperpipe]

My money is on the fact that Apple has iTMS ready to rock for the windows platform, BUT, and this is a big ol' butt, the Music industry will not let them get the same licensing!!! The only reason we got the licensing the way we did is because of our small marketshare - it was a good way to test w/out losing too much money. Now the Industry is trying to retain their paranoia with the windows crowd - buymusic.com. They are using Buy.com as guinea pigs to see what the public will consume. feeding them ***** biscuits. Now if it is the horrible fiasco it *should* be, then Apple will be in business, and it will be a HUGE windfall for our favorite company. But if all those morons out there support Buy.com, then the Music Industry will hold on tight as ever to their product. We shall see, but none of this has much to do with Apple getting on the ball, it has everything to do with the Music Industry...in my humble opinion...

[tazznb]

Originally posted by dermeister
Good, now Apple can HURRY THE HELL UP.

Apple needed a good kick in the ass.

Apple needs to do it right the first time or suffer like the rest of the wanna-be's.

[addsapple]

microsoft smells!

[fatfish]

As I see it there are a lot of issues here.

In time there will be little room for record stores as we know them. I already buy all my CD's from amazon or similar. I can see music sold over the internet becoming the norm (once the DRM issues are resolved). Ultimately it won't matter where you download your music from, Apple, M$ and buy.com will become vendors to all PC users along with many others. In my opinion this will benefit apple because PC users will have the choice to buy from anyone, wheras mac users will have to buy from iTMS if no-one else makes there service available for macs as I suspect might be the case.

At present there really is no comparison, with iTMS being vastly superior, both M$ and buy.com will be wma only and whilst it's a long time since I used wmp it had no way of organising your music as iTunes does, but maybe this has changed.

Also at the moment the iPod has huge % of the MP3 player market and 54% are PC users, I suspect this won't last, but as it stands this will encourage the use of iTMS when the PC versions gets up and running, simply because your ipod won't work with M$ and buy.com downloads. (also don't forget many CD players will now play mp3 but not wma)

In the long term apple should do well, because iTMS won't be mac dependant, as long as apple retain there lead in functionality and continue to build the library of songs, the introduction of more music services will just hasten to expand the switch to digital music downloading.

(And what about rendezvous, you can now play your QT movies/DVD's on your mac and watch them on your TV, with no wires. What a boost for apple when we get a whole load of rendezvous enabled hi-fi systems)

[DGFan]

Originally posted by KLFloyd

Second, while I can understand why Apple would want to test such a new concept on a small basis at first (Mac's in the US only) this is a VERY small percentage of the population. Why did they not at the very least at have all the agreements signed for iTunes for Windows before they launched the Mac version. Not only are they working on the software, but they're also having to re-negotiate contracts with the record companies as well. Just seems like they were in such a hurry to rush the product out the door.


You're assuming that Apple had any say in the matter. If you've been around this site long you would know that it's probable that some record companies saw ITMS as a test and were waiting to see what impact it had before signing any other agreements for ITMS windows.

[Capt Underpants]

Originally posted by jbomber
yeah, i think that kinda sums up my feelings right now. Apple seems to be dragging their feet or something. There're a lot of people waiting anxiously for one thing or another. I hope they're not resting on their laurels after successfully introducing the g5.

Well Apple doesn't want to rush and end up with a buggy product. Has Apple ever made anything for windows? If they haven't, I think they will be in for a surprise when windows junkies stark hacking iTMS for Windows. I just hope they take theie time, make a good product, and have the same DRM. I don't know if all of what I'm wishing for will be true, but one can always hope.

[DGFan]

Originally posted by Capt Underpants
Has Apple ever made anything for windows?

Quicktime is available for windows

[MasterMac]

Appleworks is also available for Windows

[electric]

Well Apple doesn't want to rush and end up with a buggy product. Has Apple ever made anything for windows? If they haven't, I think they will be in for a surprise when windows junkies stark hacking iTMS for Windows. I just hope they take theie time, make a good product, and have the same DRM. I don't know if all of what I'm wishing for will be true, but one can always hope.

QuickTime is more of a plug-in for Windows isn’t it? I think it would be really difficult to build any windows application that works consistently well on all wintel machines and Operating Systems. If ITMS crashes peoples wintels, I think those people would look at Apple with more distain, on the other hand if Apple can duplicate the ITMS functionality and ease of use currently available, it would help people understand what ease of use computing can really be like and perhaps they would buy a Mac to extend their experience.

P.S. How about the buy.com ads? Even Apples less than brilliant ideas get copied.

[mjtomlin]

Apple was able to obtain the licensing rights they did, because the iTMS is relegated to a relatively small user base...

Apple Mac users...
Running Mac OS X...
Using iTunes 4...
AAC file format (ie. not MP3, remember people swap MP3's not AAC files. lol Also, Does anyone even know if this format is even supported on Windows yet?)

The so-called "delay" in releasing a Windows version, I'm sure is in no part due to Apple - the time is probably whittling away trying to convince the record companies to go along with it. I think they just need to convince them that it won't be available to all Windows users, just those running XP, with Quicktime installed and whatever iTMS client Apple comes up with (iTunes for Windows or maybe they just add it to the MusicMatch software). Again, a fairly limited user base.

[kansast]

Please don't take this the wrong way.. i throughly enjoy the Apple Music Store. However, I get this feeling that in a year or two.. that the Apple Music Store could end up just some foot note in this whole thing.. Just maybe if they had come out with a Windows versions in the beginning. But I can just see someone comming out with a lesser version of Apple's implementation on the Windows size.. but by shear Volume, and market size, be more successful than Apple.

I certainly hope this isn't true.. and wish Apple all the success with their Music Store.

[MrMacMan]

NOOOO!!!

Microsoft stop STEALING ideads!!


AHHH!!!

Stop it!!!

[Docrjm]

Originally posted by electric
QuickTime is more of a plug-in for Windows isn’t it? I think it would be really difficult to build any windows application that works consistently well on all wintel machines and Operating Systems. If ITMS crashes peoples wintels, I think those people would look at Apple with more distain, on the other hand if Apple can duplicate the ITMS functionality and ease of use currently available, it would help people understand what ease of use computing can really be like and perhaps they would buy a Mac to extend their experience.

P.S. How about the buy.com ads? Even Apples less than brilliant ideas get copied.
Qtime is not a windows plug in, it is a full program and can be upgraded to QT pro ala Mac version.;)
As to M$ with whatever DRMand prprietary codec they use their offering will only work if you have win3000 a pentium toast and blah blah blah

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by copperpipe
My money is on the fact that Apple has iTMS ready to rock for the windows platform, BUT, and this is a big ol' butt, the Music industry will not let them get the same licensing!!! The only reason we got the licensing the way we did is because of our small marketshare - it was a good way to test w/out losing too much money. Now the Industry is trying to retain their paranoia with the windows crowd - buymusic.com. They are using Buy.com as guinea pigs to see what the public will consume. feeding them ***** biscuits. Now if it is the horrible fiasco it *should* be, then Apple will be in business, and it will be a HUGE windfall for our favorite company. But if all those morons out there support Buy.com, then the Music Industry will hold on tight as ever to their product. We shall see, but none of this has much to do with Apple getting on the ball, it has everything to do with the Music Industry...in my humble opinion...

Yup, I think you have it exactly right. Apple is holding out for the same licensing terms for Windows that they got for Mac owners, and the music industry is hoping against hope that they won't have to go there. If Steve wills out, then we might get to see if Apple's more consumer-friendly approach is the one the people want to buy. Right now, the competition between these approaches is really just theoretical, and if Apple doesn't get what it wants, and Microsoft steamrollers into the market like we know they can, ITMS might end up as that "footnote" that somebody else suggested.

It's all up to Steve and the music industry people. We're going to find out just how persuasive Steve can be.

[j33pd0g]

Maybe Microsoft will have their music store available via the xBox? All your music is stored online... and you can instantly hear them. But would not be able to download them or burn them, or store them offline. Maybe they will call it the xBox music store... and rip off the apple commercials with people behind white backdrops singing song with their xBox's in their hands...

[spice weasel]

Originally posted by Brother Mugga
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have an awful feeling that this might have been yet another lame attempt to drive people into buying a Mac in order to use the site. If so - "DOH!" When are Apple going to realise that the best way to 'switch' people is not to try and twist their arms into spending huge amounts of money on new hardware (and attendant software), but rather to introduce them to little (and relatively cheap) snippets of Apple design (such as the iPod), let them get comfortable with the ease of use etc., and then encourage them to draw the obvious conclusions regarding the larger picture of PC hardware.

Brother Mugga

When has Apple ever twisted people's arms to get them to switch? Apple's marketshare simply does not allow them to use the strong-arm tactics of say, Microsoft, for example.

As for not having released a Windows version of iTunes yet, I too think that Apple would be much better served by getting it out sooner rather than later. But not at the risk of having buggy software. That would have the effect of turning potential switchers off, and at the very least give those already slightly hostile to Macs more ammunition.

As usual, though, this rumor shows Microsoft's modus operandi -- let other, more creative companies come up with a new idea, jump in the game with tons of money, and "force" the Windoze community (most of whom are unwitting dupes who simply don't know that their computer doesn't need to crash several times daily) to accept the crap that they give them. The only good thing is that it will likely force the even crappier Buymusic.com out of business before it even gets off the ground.

Back to the Windows version of iTunes. Let's hope that they are taking their time to get it right. Look at how many versions of WMP have come out for the Mac, all pieces of junk.

[slightly]

We may never know if the iTMS DRM was one orignally proposed by Apple and accepted by the labels, or if it was something they thrashed out between them in long negotiations. Either way, it's a deal which respects the basic tenet that, when you buy a song, it's yours to keep. If you accidentally delete it, you can get it back from the iTunes Store.

We don't know what kind of rights deal MS may set up, but if it's anything like Buymusic.com's, you'll have a limited number of downloads, a limited number of (legal) burns. Of course, it will almost certainly be another WMF+IE/Win-only system.

Here's another thing. I think much of the reason for iTMS's popularity is that Mac users actually have a loyalty for Apple which just isn't there on the PC side (most PC users loathe MS, unless I'm very much mistaken). I'm not saying that PC users are more likely to use P2P rather than pay for legal downloads, but I can't see them getting excited about a legal offering in the way that Mac users were.

PC users would also have to be convinced that switching from Winamp (or whatever) to iTunes offers them something extra. Can they skin it? Add plug-ins?

All I'm saying is, if iTunes for Windows doesn't immediately take the PC world by storm and get people throwing their Kazaa clients out of the window, I don't think we have too much to blame Apple for. There's an inherited philosophy in the PC world that you get whatever you can, as cheaply as possible. Low price over high quality. It's that that we need to challenge.

Matt

[Frozone]

I don't think that Microsoft will enter the market except, like someone above suggested, with the xBox. Too many companies are running to them about using Windows Media Player and they can make a bunch of money that way without actually doing much. So to keep making money off of Windows Media Player they just simply open up there music store to xBox users. Let's all just hope that Apple can make some sweet deals with companies to get iTunes spread onto Wintel machines.

[Doctor Q]

What's to stop M$ from making the same music licensing deals for an MS-Windows-Music-Store that Apple makes? If and when the labels are ready to license music for the masses (maybe now, maybe after they are sure that Apple's "experiment" has been a success), why wouldn't they offer the deal to all music stores? I doubt Apple can muscle them into exclusive deals.

If the Windows O.S. starts shipping with a builtin client for the MSWMS, it'll be like Java, Netscape, and QuickTime - an uphill battle all the way to get users to download something and switch from the most convenient tool. A lot of music consumers will tune out the technical details and simply never do the comparison. Inertia is a powerful force.

[Brother Mugga]

Originally posted by spice weasel
When has Apple ever twisted people's arms to get them to switch?

Sorry, this wasn't intended to sound inflammatory. I just meant that Apple have often (and sometimes foolishly in my book) attempted to drive hardware sales through other aspects of their portfolio [e.g. when the original iPods came out, they took an age to produce a Windows compatible version].

Notwithstanding all the arguments about instability (etc.), I just think that Apple would also benefit from allowing certain pieces of their software to run on Windows (as they do with quicktime), because it would at least introduce people to the Apple 'world.' Posters on this (and other) sites tend to forget that we're computing 'enthusiasts' (not geeks at all, clearly...), and therefore far more clued up than the average punter...who, sadly, pretty much doesn't even realise Apple exist (especially over in Europe, believe me).

Cheers

Mugga

[fJones]

two things i think alot of people are missing:

1. apple is probably waiting for buymusic et al to tank. then they can go to the RIAA with a bit more leverage & get what they want DRM wise. i agree there is a window of opportunity here, but they will have MONTHS not days or weeks to decide the best course of action (especially with the current competition, please... even the average PC sheeple buymusic seems pegged for will realize pretty quick that this 'service' is junk).

if it is in fact a programming thing that is holding them up, well than i'd rather see them take a little more time & get it right. first impressions mean alot with this sort of thing.

2. i've heard somewhere that apple also makes computers from time to time. :p they've got panther testing right now, both it & the G5 due in late aug/early sept., new powerbooks overdue, new G5-esque display & peripheral designs (i hope anyway) & i'm sure many other projects on the roster that we don't even know about yet.

apple does not have unlimited resourses. yes, itunes is making money & has the opportunity to become 'the standard', but like any company, bottom line they need to make $$$ THIS QUARTER. they do that by selling hardware.

btw - first post here, nice site :)

[Jerry Spoon]

Originally posted by dermeister
Good, now Apple can HURRY THE HELL UP.

Apple needed a good kick in the ass.
Well said!

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by Pancake
I don't think Microsoft will enter the field. It's getting crowded quickly. They definately have the money to throw at it to succeed to a point. But I don't think there is a huge payoff for them, they can make as much money licensing their WMP junk to a bunch of people and never have to pay for infastructure.

That being said I hope they do launch one the same exact dat as iTMS for windows and they get their asses whooped. It would also be good if a little old lady because of their online music store.


Wrong. MS has been making more and more grumblings about services. Windows has hit a steel ceiling for all intents and purposes. They OWN the damn market for god sake. When your cash cow can no longer make you money you need to turn to other ventures. Hence the reason MS has been going into other markets. Witness: more hardware being put out by MS (Mice, keyboards, joysticks, NICS, wireless, etc) Gaming platforms (Come on! Does anyone truly think MS wanted to get into the video game business? Its because they saw a new revenue stream that Sony could potentially eat and they jumped at it.) Pocket PC’s. Another platform to spread (Infect?) windows too.
Then you have services. They holy grail of revenue to MS. They are desperately searching for a service that the average consumer would be willing to shell out cash on a weekly, monthly, quarterly, or yearly basis. This guarantees them a constant incoming flow of cash. (You think windows users like upgrading to MS’s latest and greatest OS? They don’t. And this hits them in the bottom line when people say screw that. Services nearly guarantee a pipeline of cash.)
I think it’s a forgone conclusion that MS WILL enter the music arena. And its why Apple needs a swift hard kick in the gluteus assimum to get them rolling. Otherwise I fear MS could pull a Netscape on them. It doesn’t matter if Apple has better software. Heck its NEVER mattered really. If MS can bundle their bloated crapp ridden software into Windows so every PC sold comes with iScrewthecomsumer, or whatever MS decides to call their app, itunes won’t have a chance in heck of competing. This is where its nice to have a market share of something above 2.5%. If Apple was at a 10% market share they would have a tad bit of breathing room. As it stands MS has plenty of room and plenty of options to screw Apple.

[hillbilly]

as the Hitchhiker's Guide says, "Don't panic"

I'm sure everyone knew this was coming. There was no way M$ was going to let Apple have this cash cow all to itself - they're already playing catch-up on OS's, and if they get much further behind, the lemmings may actually start leaving the cliff edge and stepping into the light that we so thoroughly enjoy.

As for the wait on a windows version, I can't believe it's due to the record companies, or even Steve-O wouldn't have had the nerve to put their decision on a "year's-end" timetable.

My guess is that they're putting the finishing touches on a windows jukebox that will become standard fare for the less fortunate wintel folks who now have to cope with the bloated likes of MMJB & WMP.

[vrapan]

I would like to post a few thoughts about several comments I saw.

I believe there are several reasons why Apple is taking so long to release the iTMS for windows.

1. Windows is a much more volatile platform for Apple than Mac OS is. They know it and control it(Mac OS). They do not own or control in anyway Wintel machines. So offering the same iTMS experience on Windows as they do with Mac takes a lot of effort.

2. MS has no reason not to offer music on their platform. It gives them another tie to the consumer. They have done fairly well with the PC games they offer and XBOX is doing pretty well too. So you can expect a decent offering from them.

3. To me it seems like Record Companies have the upper hand in these business. They forced DRM, they created music services that rented music, that did not allow CD burning and so on and so on. I believe that they show USA Mac base as a test platform, relatively safe enough. If I am right the AAC tracks do not play on anything else than iTunes and iPods right? So a Windows release of iTMS with the same restrictions will take a LOT of persuasion or.....

Apple's control over the experience. If and this is a big if Apple can keep the tracks in the circle of iPod-iTunes the Recording industry might feel comfortable enough to offer the same "loose" restrictions.

The probles is the following. With the current restrictions there is a work around - not elegant but still a work around. Burn your tracks on a CD and rip them as DRMless MP3s. While this is not a big problem on a limited scale imagine the hundrends of thousands of consumers being able to get their hands on 1$ releases and then release them for free. On top of that many Windows consumers will not want to use the 300$ iPod - too expensive in the Windows world and.

So I believe Apple has stuck on this circle: They cannot get the same deal they did for the Mac iTMS unless they offer a way to control such techniques of "copyright violations". And they do not want to release a Windows version that is much more strict than the Mac version because all the hype about the superiority of their service would mean nothing.


Thinking about it twice, getting a stricter deal and posting a banner on iTunes saying "If you had a Mac you could burn your song on a CD as many times as you liked" might be the best advertising for Macs lol......

[Omek]

And how about BuyMusic.com? That was one of the lamest things I've ever seen. How low can you get? They copied Apple's commercials exactly, except using a different MP3 player.... Why can't businesses come up with their own dang original ideas....

Anyway, if Microsoft comes out with its own music store, it will probably have several limitations. I just wish Apple would have ditched the 3 operating system idea. That's the only thing I really don't like about those AAC files. I mean come on.... only 3 computers?? That's just ludacris!

[tazo]

Does this finally raise the question, how bad can Microsoft sink? Well maybe, but I'll be anxious to see if your ability to use the songs is even at 'play once'.

[BaghdadBob]

Originally posted by Omek
I just wish Apple would have ditched the 3 operating system idea. That's the only thing I really don't like about those AAC files. I mean come on.... only 3 computers?? That's just ludacris!
As opposed to what? That's just how many systems you can have licensed to use the original files at a time, you can still use CDs and iPods. Apple had to find some DRM middle ground, and I would say that three systems is just fine, if you've got more than that then I guess you may have to use CDs, what can I say...

Let's only hope that they can be as free and easy with DRM as they were with our version for the Windows side. Last time we heard they already had two majors signed up I think. I believe most of us were pleasantly surprised by how loose "Fair Play" was. I aint complaining.

BuyMusic.com is an example of what the record companies will agree to if you don't twist their arms or distort their reality. In contrast you can see how great the deal Apple worked out was.

[j33pd0g]

At least Apple has the smarts to at least announce support for Windows users. IMO, it is good business to not narrow your market. *Unlike http://www.BuyMusic.com/ where if you are on a mac you can't even go to the site anymore. That's a stupid plan of attack. Yeah, I know you need the new WMP, but did M$ officially say that they are not releasing that for mac OS X?





*I wanted to go there for additional chuckle.

[MisterMe]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Wrong. MS has been making more and more grumblings about services. Windows has hit a steel ceiling for all intents and purposes. They OWN the damn market for god sake. When your cash cow can no longer make you money you need to turn to other ventures. Hence the reason MS has been going into other markets. Witness: more hardware being put out by MS (Mice, keyboards, joysticks, NICS, wireless, etc) Gaming platforms (Come on! Does anyone truly think MS wanted to get into the video game business? Its because they saw a new revenue stream that Sony could potentially eat and they jumped at it.) Pocket PC’s. Another platform to spread (Infect?) windows too.
Then you have services. They holy grail of revenue to MS. They are desperately searching for a service that the average consumer would be willing to shell out cash on a weekly, monthly, quarterly, or yearly basis. This guarantees them a constant incoming flow of cash. (You think windows users like upgrading to MS’s latest and greatest OS? They don’t. And this hits them in the bottom line when people say screw that. Services nearly guarantee a pipeline of cash.)
I think it’s a forgone conclusion that MS WILL enter the music arena. And its why Apple needs a swift hard kick in the gluteus assimum to get them rolling. Otherwise I fear MS could pull a Netscape on them. It doesn’t matter if Apple has better software. Heck its NEVER mattered really. If MS can bundle their bloated crapp ridden software into Windows so every PC sold comes with iScrewthecomsumer, or whatever MS decides to call their app, itunes won’t have a chance in heck of competing. This is where its nice to have a market share of something above 2.5%. If Apple was at a 10% market share they would have a tad bit of breathing room. As it stands MS has plenty of room and plenty of options to screw Apple. For the most part, your facts are correct but your conclusions aren't. First off: cash flow and profits are not the same. Apple is on the verge of turning a profit on iTMS, but the venture still loses money. M$ needs profits. However, the Redmond monopoly has hit the "steel ceiling" where the profits are easy to come by. M$ did indeed develop the xBox to expand its revenue stream. However, the company still loses money on the venture. It is likely that the xBox will not see a profit before Sony introduces the PlayStation 3. That means that the xBox will never see a profit. IIRC, M$ makes a profit on only three of its seven units. The company is doing everything it can to hold onto customers and investors. The purchase of Connectix's product line was part of that strategy. The declaration of a dividend was another part of it.

The bottomline is this: a M$ Music Store would most certain be another money losing venture in the near term. It would be a venture where the company would not control its product. There would be no guarantee that it would ever turn a profit.

[vrapan]

MS is not really trying to make profit out of everything they make. Profits have been quite fat for a long time and they still beat analysts expectations when they announce income and profits. What MS tries to do is to hold onto consumers. Anything that could possibly undermine Windows and its influence is a threat to them. From the browser war to consoles to media to handhelds. All these run by others leave their main cash cow (see Windows) vulnerable. They do what they do not because they are trying to make profit out of these particular ventures or services but simply to keep people and companies tied to Windows - MS platform. This is why they keep adding things to windows and this is why I think if they suspect that iTMS for Windows has a chance to undermine in any way the OS then they will fight it anyway they can. And they have tons of cash to afford losing on one or ten more ventures till the competition is marginalised and the threat is gone.

Look examples after the browser war was won IE didn't get one single update. How long IE is on 6? But before that how often they were updating it? They stop improving as soon as they feel secure and then they go after another possible threat.

[BaghdadBob]

vrapan is right on the money. This is why we should be nervous any time MS enters into a new venture.

Their real goal is to make a certain sector rely on their technology. There is nothing to guarantee that MS will not fall out of favor and suffer serious downsizing -- except for the fact that they now control so many technologies that people have come to rely on.

But this very fact is the reason the entertainment industry is somewhat wary of going into business with MS. They don't want to be caught in that trap, so believe that MS will have to offer a sweet deal to the big 5 to make an offering comparable to iTMS -- but also believe that there will be a poison apple in there somewhere.

[MacMaelstrom]

Apple should have patented the idea of buying music online and downloading it.

[BaghdadBob]

Originally posted by MacMaelstrom
Apple should have patented the idea of buying music online and downloading it.
Unenforcable. They weren't the first anyway, they're just the best at it.

[MisterMe]

Originally posted by vrapan
MS is not really trying to make profit out of everything they make. Profits have been quite fat for a long time and they still beat analysts expectations when they announce income and profits. What MS tries to do is to hold onto consumers. Anything that could possibly undermine Windows and its influence is a threat to them. From the browser war to consoles to media to handhelds. All these run by others leave their main cash cow (see Windows) vulnerable. They do what they do not because they are trying to make profit out of these particular ventures or services but simply to keep people and companies tied to Windows - MS platform. This is why they keep adding things to windows and this is why I think if they suspect that iTMS for Windows has a chance to undermine in any way the OS then they will fight it anyway they can. And they have tons of cash to afford losing on one or ten more ventures till the competition is marginalised and the threat is gone.What you are saying is true to a point. What you fail to grasp is that M$ is a public corporation. The purpose of a public corporation is not to sell products to customers, it is to provide return on investment for stockholders. In that sense, M$ is not competing so much with Apple, IBM, and the Linux distros as it competing with ExxonMobil, GM, and GE. If M$ stock does not produce, then investors go elsewhere.

What you described above are the lengths to which M$ goes to leverage its monopoly positions in order to protect and extend its markets. I have no dispute with that. What I argue is that the company can't keep this up. It already has four of its seven business units operating in the red. It recently went into game consoles, a money losing business. A music store would be another money losing business.

An if you think that losing money is not on M$'s mind, then you need to think again. You see the company merging the money losing MSN with the zero revenue IE.
Originally posted by vrapan
Look examples after the browser war was won IE didn't get one single update. How long IE is on 6? But before that how often they were updating it? They stop improving as soon as they feel secure and then they go after another possible threat. It is very true that M$ responds to competition. However, IE will cease to exist as an application on any platform. On Windows, it will become a part of the OS. On the Mac, it will part of the MSN client. And by the way, secure is not a word in M$'s dictionary. Gates has been paranoid since the earliest days of the microcomputer revolution, at least. M$'s paranoia keeps it from getting comfortable, irrespective of its level of dominance. This paranoia is at the heart of everything M$ has done, both legal and illegal, to get where it is today.

[BaghdadBob]

MrMe: I agree with you that they can't go hemmoraging money at will. However, their monopolistic practices support the divisions that are making a profit, and the overall financial picture would have to start turning around before anyone, including their stockholders, give a crap how many "divisions" are losing money. MS is one of the few corporations that has been unnaturally divided, if you were to break down a lot of corporations you would see that many of their ventures lose money, but as long as there is synergy it's not an issue.

If you set Apple's "iApps" people into their own division, how much money would they be returning on investment?

[BillyShears]

What I am worried about is music ownership. I need to own my music, regardless of what OS I use. This is why I continue to buy CDs. (Well also I live in Canada... but I wouldn't use iTMS if I could)

Now I can see the convenience, but I also fear the idea that I won't be able to play all the music I have. At least with iTMS, all the songs you download can be burned to CD. I'd imagine I'd have to do that. I also only rip to MP3 so my library is easily transferable should I "switch" to another operating system.

Anyway, that's the big advantage I see iTMS has... if I were to buy from them, I could burn the songs to CD, whereas with BuyMusic.com I have to check the permissions for each song.

I imagine Microsoft will have DRM out the ass, but I don't know why I think that. I think DRM has become an issue for users, so I don't really know if they would put in strong DRM or not.

[BaghdadBob]

It's not a matter of whether "they" would put in a strong DRM or not, it's the record companies. If the record companies would agree to the same DRM for Windows as they did on the mac version of iTMS, we might have WiniTMS already, or very close.

Anyway, I've heard this a couple of times, and AAC is not an exclusive format. I don't know what players support it right now, but if they don't it aint because they can't (unless someone knows something I don't).

[vrapan]

At least Apple has the smarts to at least announce support for Windows users. IMO, it is good business to not narrow your market. *Unlike http://www.BuyMusic.com/ where if you are on a mac you can't even go to the site anymore. That's a stupid plan of attack. Yeah, I know you need the new WMP, but did M$ officially say that they are not releasing that for mac OS X?

Apple needs the "rest" 95% for the iTMS to ever have a significant impact. BuyMusic or MS can ignore the Mac base because when you have 95% of the market you pretty much are the market. And WMP9 is coming on Mac later this year.

But this very fact is the reason the entertainment industry is somewhat wary of going into business with MS. They don't want to be caught in that trap, so believe that MS will have to offer a sweet deal to the big 5 to make an offering comparable to iTMS -- but also believe that there will be a poison apple in there somewhere.

I would love to believe that the record industry is so open minded but control, strict DRM and heavy weight behind their schemes is what they have shown to care about. MS can offer all these. Hopefully they took the lesson that extremely strict DRM is not the answer but I won't believe it till I see it.

What you are saying is true to a point. What you fail to grasp is that M$ is a public corporation. The purpose of a public corporation is not to sell products to customers, it is to provide return on investment for stockholders. In that sense, M$ is not competing so much with Apple, IBM, and the Linux distros as it competing with ExxonMobil, GM, and GE. If M$ stock does not produce, then investors go elsewhere.

Uhm sorry but in order to make a profit they need to sell something. What they do sell right now is software and services. So they need a way to keep making money out of this. In this sense they do compete with anyone that can eat into their cash machines. And having an MSc in Finance and Economics I can grasp what a public corporation is after very well.

What I argue is that the company can't keep this up. It already has four of its seven business units operating in the red. It recently went into game consoles, a money losing business.

MS recently presented their quarter results and they beat every expectation on revenues and profits. Although no new Windows or Office have been released the past year (their main products each of which contributes $10billion a year). So yeap they can keep this up for quite some time. Consoles themselves are losing money only because the games that are made for them are not. Last time I checked Sony made 60% of their profits by Playstation games - not the console - and a slump on the sales had a huge impact on their latest results (98% lower profits than a year ago). MS does not make money on XBOX but they do on the games for it.

An if you think that losing money is not on M$'s mind, then you need to think again. You see the company merging the money losing MSN with the zero revenue IE.


This is exactly why I said that as soon as they kicked every other browser out of the market they stopped developing IE. They divert their attention elsewhere and stop spending on a money losing project.
As about the paranoia well I think they are smart enough to stop wasting money on projects that are not a threat right now and will never offer some profit potential.

A music store is very different than IE anyway. An MSMS can offer profits - iTMS is going to make a profit despite the fact that it reaches only a few million people. If only 10% of the windows installed base in US use MSMS it has already more than double the number of US Mac users. Making money out of 1$ is hard when you reach onle 5 million people but much easier when you reach 150 million.

[8320]

Yes, Apple has F'd up once again. Before they announce anything as revolutionary as iTunes Music Store, they should be prepared to release a Windows version simultaneously. Seriously, how long does it take to port the code to a different operating system?

Products such as the iPod and iTunes could be used as marketing tools to infiltrate the Windows world. I can't imaging that Apple has enough insight to put Macintosh pamphlets into the iPod boxes sold to Windows users.

In addition, Apple needs to fire whoever is responsible for their marketing and advertising. When I first saw Apples promotional video featuring MTV's Ian Robinson, I thought, "Wow, this guy would be great in iTunes commercials." Instead, they resort to their regular lame-o white background commercials featuring people singing their favorite tunes while listening to their iPod, with only vague hints as to what the commercial is about. Lame. Ineffective. Tragic.

By the time the Windows world is done stealing revolutionary ideas from their unwitting research and development company (Apple), we Macintosh users might as well join the dark side. Why does a company with such a superior product line continually lend deaf ears when opportunity knocks?

[tizza]

It would be interesting to find out what it takes to get an average Windows user who just uses whatever MS throws at them, to switch to using a superior product such as iTMS (not that we've seen the MS version yet, but I don't think there'll be any surprises). Sure iTMS may be better than anything MS will have to offer, but to get an average Windows user to switch to it I reckon it has to be a LOT better, such that it simply can't be ignored! Here in Australia we don't get as much of the Apple advertising on television, but I'm sure they could be doing more to be visible.

[rdowns]

Notwithstanding all the arguments about instability (etc.), I just think that Apple would also benefit from allowing certain pieces of their software to run on Windows (as they do with quicktime), because it would at least introduce people to the Apple 'world.' Posters on this (and other) sites tend to forget that we're computing 'enthusiasts' (not geeks at all, clearly...), and therefore far more clued up than the average punter...who, sadly, pretty much doesn't even realise Apple exist (especially over in Europe, believe me).

Cheers

Mugga [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree. Apple should release a Windows "browser" (call it Window Shopper?)for the IMS that would allow Windows users to access the store, see how it's laid out and sample songs. Would probably do more for switching than anything else they have done to date.

[dernhelm]

<p>Sounds more like another pathetic M$ attempt to scare of competition by floating rumors of a potential piece of software that is just around the corner. Gee - we've never seen THAT before... </p>
<p>Note to Apple: it's a bluff - don't rush things, get it done right. Microsoft has killed more companies by simply threatening to compete and delivering nothing, than it ever did by actual DOJ infractions.
</p>