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Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 10:32 AM
Use these threads in the political forum for real political debate? Me and mcrain, and Jef, used to really have great discussions. Lately, it has turned into an insult fest. Can we please get rid of the Clinton insults, the Bush insults, the Anti-American crap. And actually discuss real political issues and learn something from one another?

eyelikeart
Jul 26, 2003, 11:05 AM
don't forget the anti-anyone stuff... ;)

IJ Reilly
Jul 26, 2003, 11:11 AM
Fine with me, but your part, you might want to consider refraining from using antagonistic expressions like "you liberals" and slurs against French.

pseudobrit
Jul 26, 2003, 11:57 AM
90% of politics consists of insulting politicians.

I'd much rather be contending with that sort of thing than trying to argue anything with the market anarchists, which is a bit like arguing about the internal affairs of the Catholic Church with an atheist.

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 12:00 PM
Why is "you liberals" an insult? If you said you conservatives, it would not offend me at all. You are a liberal, and if I am addressing more than on liberal, would it not be you liberals?

As for the French. I have never lobbed any untrue comment out there about the French.

zimv20
Jul 26, 2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Why is "you liberals" an insult?

for me, it's not the term itself. it's being bunched in with a group of people and having their arguments become mine. typically, "you liberals" ends up w/ some type of dismissal. in previous posts, i've been attributed arguments that i've not made, but some "other liberal."

e.g. (and no one's done this -- yet) someone could say, "you liberals want china to invade the US". only one person said that. less extreme examples have happened many times here.

i welcome responses to my views and am happy to discuss my point/view. it becomes difficult to do so when my viewpoint becomes mixed up w/ everyone elses.

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by zimv20
for me, it's not the term itself. it's being bunched in with a group of people and having their arguments become mine. typically, "you liberals" ends up w/ some type of dismissal. in previous posts, i've been attributed arguments that i've not made, but some "other liberal."

e.g. (and no one's done this -- yet) someone could say, "you liberals want china to invade the US". only one person said that. less extreme examples have happened many times here.

i welcome responses to my views and am happy to discuss my point/view. it becomes difficult to do so when my viewpoint becomes mixed up w/ everyone elses.

See, now that is a well thought out, and stated point. I understand, and will make an effort to clarify "all you liberals that want China to invade the US are out of your mind"

As opposed to "all you liberals"

;)

zimv20
Jul 26, 2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
will make an effort to clarify "all you liberals that want China to invade the US are out of your mind"

As opposed to "all you liberals"

;)

:-)

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by zimv20
:-)


Nice to see that someone gets my humor.


Seriously though, can't we all try to have good debate, rather than name calling and finger pointing.

IJ Reilly
Jul 26, 2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Why is "you liberals" an insult? If you said you conservatives, it would not offend me at all. You are a liberal, and if I am addressing more than on liberal, would it not be you liberals?

As for the French. I have never lobbed any untrue comment out there about the French.

I did not say it was an "insult," I said it was antagonistic. It is an antagonistic (and cheap) debating tactic to attempt to group-associate your opponent instead of addressing what they've actually argued. This is nothing new -- I've mentioned it several times before.

I don't know what you mean by "untrue comments" about the French, because that wasn't my point, which was directed at your casual use of a slur against the French in a very recent post in another thread. If you would not use that expression to a person's face, I'd suggest that it isn't any more appropriate here -- at least if elevating the debate is your objective.

pseudobrit
Jul 26, 2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Seriously though, can't we all try to have good debate, rather than name calling and finger pointing.

Like not saying "you liberals" (finger pointing) and "The Frogs" (namecalling)?

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by IJ Reilly
I did not say it was an "insult," I said it was antagonistic. It is an antagonistic (and cheap) debating tactic to attempt to group-associate your opponent instead of addressing what they've actually argued. This is nothing new -- I've mentioned it several times before.

I don't know what you mean by "untrue comments" about the French, because that wasn't my point, which was directed at your casual use of a slur against the French in a very recent post in another thread. If you would not use that expression to a person's face, I'd suggest that it isn't any more appropriate here -- at least if elevating the debate is your objective.

As for debating, I was a two time state champion of Lincoln Douglas debate. So I am familar with the tactics, and ways in which to argue. How can I argue with an arguement such as "China should invade the US" with anything other than a "dude you are out of your mind" response. As for the slur against the French what are you talking about? Now, you don't know me, but others here do, and Eye, Rower, and Mr. Anderson will all tell you that I am not afraid to say anything to anyones face. Please understand that. I say what I mean, and mean what I say.

pseudobrit
Jul 26, 2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
As for debating, I was a two time state champion of Lincoln Douglas debate. So I am familar with the tactics, and ways in which to argue. How can I argue with an arguement such as "China should invade the US" with anything other than a "dude you are out of your mind" response. As for the slur against the French what are you talking about? Now, you don't know me, but others here do, and Eye, Rower, and Mr. Anderson will all tell you that I am not afraid to say anything to anyones face. Please understand that. I say what I mean, and mean what I say.

Ditto. (I say what I mean and mean what I say) Tone it down, please. It's the presentation that's the problem

As far as how to respond to ridiculous hyperbole, don't. It's not meant to incite serious debate, so don't bite.

You as a debating champ should know at least that much. Don't feed trolling.

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
Ditto. (I say what I mean and mean what I say) Tone it down, please. It's the presentation that's the problem

As far as how to respond to ridiculous hyperbole, don't. It's not meant to incite serious debate, so don't bite.

You as a debating champ should know at least that much. Don't feed trolling.

Agreed. Me tone it down?

IJ Reilly
Jul 26, 2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
As for debating, I was a two time state champion of Lincoln Douglas debate. So I am familar with the tactics, and ways in which to argue. How can I argue with an arguement such as "China should invade the US" with anything other than a "dude you are out of your mind" response. As for the slur against the French what are you talking about? Now, you don't know me, but others here do, and Eye, Rower, and Mr. Anderson will all tell you that I am not afraid to say anything to anyones face. Please understand that. I say what I mean, and mean what I say.

Okay, so what you're saying now is that you know all of the dirty debating tactics, and aren't afraid to use them? This is hardly a ringing endorsement for civil debate. In fact is seems to me more like an effort to get other people to "be nice" so you can more easily pummel them in a manner and time of your choosing.

in fact, I do know you, from over a year on these boards now, but these boards are not saying anything "to anyone's face." Still, a slur is a slur, here or anywhere else. It isn't a question of being "afraid" of saying what you mean -- it's a matter of what you mean that's at issue.

"Doctor, heal thyself," is my advice.

pseudobrit
Jul 26, 2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by IJ Reilly
In fact is seems to me more like an effort to get other people to "be nice" so you can more easily pummel them in a manner and time of your choosing.

Agreed. It's a "do as I say, not as I do."

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Okay, so what you're saying now is that you know all of the dirty debating tactics, and aren't afraid to use them? This is hardly a ringing endorsement for civil debate. In fact is seems to me more like an effort to get other people to "be nice" so you can more easily pummel them in a manner and time of your choosing.

in fact, I do know you, from over a year on these boards now, but these boards are not saying anything "to anyone's face." Still, a slur is a slur, here or anywhere else. It isn't a question of being "afraid" of saying what you mean -- it's a matter of what you mean that's at issue.

"Doctor, heal thyself," is my advice.

No, what I am saying is don't try to explain how to debate to me. Again, I say to you, what slur? I have asked that already, and still I have no answer.

toontra
Jul 26, 2003, 01:56 PM
B2TM
Do you remember a few weeks ago when you several of your posts were seen by many here as being deeply offensive and inflammatory? You exiled yourself for a few weeks, and things did actually calm down for a while thereafter.
That being the case, I hardly think you are one to preach forum etiquette to others now.

For those new members who don't know what I'm talking about, do a search for B2TM's posts in the Wasteland threads from March/April time.

pseudobrit
Jul 26, 2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
No, what I am saying is don't try to explain how to debate to me. Again, I say to you, what slur? I have asked that already, and still I have no answer.

Well, you called Frenchmen "Frogs" in a recent post. The problem is that you'll throw out an insult, forget about it instantly, and then proceed to be hostile to anyone who tries to call you on it.

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by toontra
B2TM
Do you remember a few weeks ago when you several of your posts were seen by many here as being deeply offensive and inflammatory? You exiled yourself for a few weeks, and things did actually calm down for a while thereafter.
That being the case, I hardly think you are one to preach forum etiquette to others now.

For those new members who don't know what I'm talking about, do a search for B2TM's posts in the Wasteland threads from March/April time.

HA! That is rich. Look at the posts to which I was responding.:rolleyes:

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
Well, you called Frenchmen "Frogs" in a recent post. The problem is that you'll throw out an insult, forget about it instantly, and then proceed to be hostile to anyone who tries to call you on it.


Calling the French "frogs" is an insult? That is like calling us Yanks, or the English Limey's.

If that is an insult to anyone, I am sorry, but my skin is tougher than that.

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 02:14 PM
Yea, I went back and looked, and some of them were hot responses, but when people took shots at me I took shots back at them, and I remember MrsBacktothemac firing a round off in response to a thread too.

pseudobrit
Jul 26, 2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Yea, I went back and looked, and some of them were hot responses, but when people took shots at me I took shots back at them, and I remember MrsBacktothemac firing a round off in response to a thread too.

Again, I would think that as a debating champ, you'd be able to steel your temper and use mastery of language to dispatch your opponent rather than just call them "*******s" for insulting Bush.

zimv20
Jul 26, 2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
Calling the French "frogs" is an insult? That is like calling us Yanks

i know french people who are offended by that. i don't know any americans who are offended by "yanks." i think there _is_ a difference.

(dunno about "limey," btw)

pseudobrit
Jul 26, 2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by zimv20
i know french people who are offended by that. i don't know any americans who are offended by "yanks." i think there _is_ a difference.

(dunno about "limey," btw)

frog (frôg, fr?g) n.
9. Offensive Slang. Used as a disparaging term for a French person.


Perhaps because it was used as the name of pirates, the name Yankee came to be used as a term of contempt. It was used this way in the 1750s by General James Wolfe, the British general who secured British domination of North America by defeating the French at Quebec. The name may have been applied to New Englanders as an extension of an original use referring to Dutch settlers living along the Hudson River. Whatever the reason, Yankee is first recorded in 1765 as a name for an inhabitant of New England. The first recorded use of the term by the British to refer to Americans in general appears in the 1780s, in a letter by Lord Horatio Nelson, no less. Around the same time it began to be abbreviated to Yank. During the American Revolution, American soldiers adopted this term of derision as a term of national pride. The derisive use nonetheless remained alive and even intensified in the South during the Civil War, when it referred not to all Americans but to those loyal to the Union.

The difference would also be that there's no French sports teams named "The Frogs" while "The Yankees" have been around for decades.

"Yankee" refers traditionally to a northerner. It's not an insult, but common slang.

What if I were to start calling you a reb? Or, if you came from the north originally, a carpetbagger? It's the same as Yankee, right? Wrong.

pseudobrit
Jul 26, 2003, 03:13 PM
Oh, yes, and limey:

lim·ey (l??m?)

n. Slang pl. lim·eys

1. A British sailor.
2. An English person.


[Short for lime juicer(from the use of lime juice on British warships in order to prevent scurvy).]

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 03:13 PM
Well then I officially appologize for using Frogs to describe the French.

Won't happen again.

I will just call them Frenchies.

IJ Reilly
Jul 26, 2003, 06:32 PM
One of the definitions of "frog" is (from the American Heritage Dictionary): "Offensive Slang. Used as a disparaging term for a French person."

IOW, an insult. Now, what was this thread about again? I forget...

Ugg
Jul 26, 2003, 06:37 PM
Why do you feel a need to call someone by something other than their rightful name? Personally, I just don't get it and it seems to be in direct opposition to the title of this thread. Diminutives or derivations of a proper name are usually only found in personal relationships, grade schools and derogatory comments. It may well be that this is a cultural issue at play, if so, please explain your reasoning.

Frohickey
Jul 26, 2003, 06:39 PM
This title reminds me of the people the LAPD treated like a King... Rodney that is. :D

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Ugg
Why do you feel a need to call someone by something other than their rightful name? Personally, I just don't get it and it seems to be in direct opposition to the title of this thread. Diminutives or derivations of a proper name are usually only found in personal relationships, grade schools and derogatory comments. It may well be that this is a cultural issue at play, if so, please explain your reasoning.

It was a nickname thing. Folks here in the south use nicknames for people a lot.

I meant nothing insulting by it, and said so in the previous post.

Backtothemac
Jul 26, 2003, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by IJ Reilly
One of the definitions of "frog" is (from the American Heritage Dictionary): "Offensive Slang. Used as a disparaging term for a French person."

IOW, an insult. Now, what was this thread about again? I forget...

If you would look at the post before yours, which was a good 3 hours before yours, so, unless you are just posting, without reading, then you would have known that I said I was sorry, and would never let it happen again.

It was not meant as an insult, but I said I was sorry for it anyway. As for the meaning of the thread. It was to ask to not let what this thread has turned into happen any more. It was to have meaningful debate, and learn rather than take cheap shots at each other. But, alas per your posts, it is obvious to me that you either cannot, or will not do that. So just PM me your statements, and I will respond in kind, as opposed to clogging the threads with them.

IJ Reilly
Jul 27, 2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Backtothemac
If you would look at the post before yours, which was a good 3 hours before yours, so, unless you are just posting, without reading, then you would have known that I said I was sorry, and would never let it happen again.

It was not meant as an insult, but I said I was sorry for it anyway. As for the meaning of the thread. It was to ask to not let what this thread has turned into happen any more. It was to have meaningful debate, and learn rather than take cheap shots at each other. But, alas per your posts, it is obvious to me that you either cannot, or will not do that. So just PM me your statements, and I will respond in kind, as opposed to clogging the threads with them.

The apology is actually appreciated, and I should been more magnanimous in accepting it when offered, especially given how rare they are around here. That being said, my last post was not intended as a "cheap shot," any more then your use of a slur was intended as an insult.

Further, and even more to the point, your remark that I "cannot or will not" engage in "meaningful debate" is itself a charge lacking any material basis. It is, in fact, another personal insult of the kind you have pledged to avoid. So the point I've been making all along remains unchanged: Civility begins at home.