More Panther 7B21 Notes [Archive]

x-virge

Jul 28, 2003, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by jaedreth
You know in your current Jaguar Finder windows how there is the clear roundish button on the top right hand corner?

Click that, the toolbar goes away. Click it again, it's back.

All they are saying is:

Click it, the toolbar *and* the left column go away. Click it, it's back.

That simple.

Yeah, I know about the simplified interface.. that was in the first developer build too. But is it now actually in *Aqua* instead of Brushed Metal? That's what I seemed to take from the original quote. That would be *really* nice, because that actually makes more sense (see Ars Technica article about the Finder).. and the brushed metal simplified interface looked ugly.

Nermal

Jul 28, 2003, 04:08 PM

I've heard from a couple of different places that it is indeed Aqua when you push the toolbar button thingy.

I'm looking forward to Safari 1.1, hopefully it'll fix the caching problem!

ebow

Jul 28, 2003, 04:20 PM

from the translation:
It is now possible to compress data (.zip format) directly via the Finder, a bit like what Stuffit's True Finder Integration does.

Why would they go with .zip format? It doesn't preserve resource forks, as far as I'm aware. Is this just a translation error? :confused:

bobindashadows

Jul 28, 2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by ebow
from the translation:

Why would they go with .zip format? It doesn't preserve resource forks, as far as I'm aware. Is this just a translation error? :confused:
Perhaps Apple is trying to move away from the use of resource forks.... but that doesn't make sense because Apple would still want people to be able to handle resource forks of older files.

daveL

Jul 28, 2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by bobindashadows
Perhaps Apple is trying to move away from the use of resource forks.... but that doesn't make sense because Apple would still want people to be able to handle resource forks of older files.
Perhaps they added support for resource forks? In any case, I like the new functionality.

backspinner

Jul 28, 2003, 04:58 PM

Just a thought: if I move a file on the network, it becomes two files. One large with the actual data and one small without data. Maybe that is the resource fork and will they put them both inside the zip file.

richard5mith

Jul 28, 2003, 05:01 PM

The other problem with .zip is it doesn't maintain file permissions. Which is why you do tar.gz.

Pancake

Jul 28, 2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by richard5mith
The other problem with .zip is it doesn't maintain file permissions. Which is why you do tar.gz.

What does tar.gz stand for, if anything?

daveL

Jul 28, 2003, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by Pancake
What does tar.gz stand for, if anything?
Tar is the Unix archiving program. Start up a terminal and do "man tar" to find out the details. The GNU compression program "gzip" uses the "gz" filename extension. Common Unix practice is to "tar up" a directory tree or entire partition, appending ".tar" to the resulting archive file, and then gzip'ing it, which adds ".gz" to the original filename.
You can also do this in one step by "piping" tar's output into gzip.

HTH

GeeYouEye

Jul 28, 2003, 07:23 PM

Zip preserves resource forks. GZip, which is not the same, does not, as far as I'm aware.

gallenx

Jul 28, 2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Pancake
What does tar.gz stand for, if anything?

tar stands for Tape ARchive. The tar format was created so that you could wrap a lot of files up in a single file. There is no compression support in the tar format.

gz stands for GNU Zip, which is a very featureless compression format. It can only compress a single file. It also doesn't really retain any information about the file inside.

Because of this, tar is used to collect a group of files (and their info) and that is then gzipped to compress the tar archive into a smaller size, thus resulting in a .tar.gz or .tgz.

Datazoid

Jul 28, 2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by x-virge
Yeah, I know about the simplified interface.. that was in the first developer build too. But is it now actually in *Aqua* instead of Brushed Metal? That's what I seemed to take from the original quote. That would be *really* nice, because that actually makes more sense (see Ars Technica article about the Finder).. and the brushed metal simplified interface looked ugly.

Per MacBidouille:
A simplified Aqua look is available for the Finder, instead of brushed metal. In that case, there's no toolbar on top, nor any column on the side.

gregorypierce

Jul 28, 2003, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by daveL
I saw this a little while ago. Interesting, if not detailed.

Now, if the load on the ADC sites would drop off so I can download it in less than 5 days, I'd be a happy guy!

5 days, I should be so lucks. At my shop, downloading off the ADC servers (and my shop has obscene OC-3 bandwidth) Disk 2 was going to take over 400 hours :D Its getting to the point where I might do better to just wait for it to ship than try to download the seed. I've decided to let the download continue just to see which events in history will occur before I can actually completely download the seed.

jaedreth

Jul 28, 2003, 08:51 PM

Sorry to hear that Gregory. But yeah, OC-3 is sweet. :)

Of course, I work for an ISP that *sells* T1's...

Jaedreth

ps wish I could afford the $500 to join ADC the right way, and help the cause...

daveL

Jul 28, 2003, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by gregorypierce
5 days, I should be so lucks. At my shop, downloading off the ADC servers (and my shop has obscene OC-3 bandwidth) Disk 2 was going to take over 400 hours :D Its getting to the point where I might do better to just wait for it to ship than try to download the seed. I've decided to let the download continue just to see which events in history will occur before I can actually completely download the seed.
I've sent them a couple of emails, with no real (non-automated) reply. I *did* just notice that they put up a red status message on the download directory indicating that the site volume was very high and that you might want to try later. I guess what I don't understand is why this download is so much more taxing than previous Jag releases. Have they cut back download resources or has the ADC membership grown that much recently? In any event, if the are shipping CDs, I'm not sure why they bothered putting the images up for downloading. For me, this has been a dismal customer experience. BT would have been way faster than this, but ...

gregorypierce

Jul 28, 2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by daveL
I've sent them a couple of emails, with no real (non-automated) reply. I *did* just notice that they put up a red status message on the download directory indicating that the site volume was very high and that you might want to try later. I guess what I don't understand is why this download is so much more taxing than previous Jag releases. Have they cut back download resources or has the ADC membership grown that much recently? In any event, if the are shipping CDs, I'm not sure why they bothered putting the images up for downloading. For me, this has been a dismal customer experience. BT would have been way faster than this, but ...

Well here's hoping that they ship the CDs early because getting sub 1k speeds on an OC-3 is just silly. So far the following events in history occurred while downloading the seed:

* Death of George Burns
* Report on 9/11 released to public

AidenShaw

Jul 28, 2003, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by gregorypierce
Well here's hoping that they ship the CDs early because getting sub 1k speeds on an OC-3 is just silly. So far the following events in history occurred while downloading the seed:

* Death of George Burns
* Report on 9/11 released to public
You have a very slow link, indeed....

http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/9603/burns_obit/burns_reacts/index.html

"March 9, 1996
Web posted at: 7:00 p.m. EST

CONCORD, California (CNN) -- George Burns once quipped: "I can't afford to die; I'd lose too much money." After he passed away Saturday, it was that remarkable sense of humor that Burns' friends and admirers most remembered.

President Clinton applauded Burns as "one of the great entertainers of all time," one who touched more than three generations with his humor.

"George Burns' sense of timing and captivating smile touched the hearts and funny bones of more than three generations," Clinton said in a statement issued during a trip to California. "He enabled us to see humor in the toughest of times and laugh together as a nation. We will miss him greatly."

"

whooleytoo

Jul 29, 2003, 06:28 AM

I know I'm compulsively pedantic... but Aqua doesn't mean "stripey windows", Aqua is the entire OSX UI. So, in fact, the brushed metal windows are Aqua too.

There, I got that off my chest, I feel better now..
:D

Mike.

vrapan

Jul 29, 2003, 07:59 AM

encro

Jul 29, 2003, 08:16 AM

Posted on railheaddesign.com:

I say this all the time it seems, but you just *have* to love Apple! The latest build of OS X 10.3 is totally amazing — and it’s almost like a completely different OS that than the one seen at the WWDC. I’m still in the process of taking screen shots, etc., but here’s a run-down of a couple of the new items I’ve stumbled across:

* The Finder preferences are totally rebuilt. They now support a toolbar to access 4 different panes.

* When you double-click an icon to launch a program, the icon zooms open (larger) and fades. The effect is like the icon is flying toward you, and it’s pretty cool. =)

* The Finder prefs now let you better customize what you see in the Places area of the new Finder windows (disks, folders, network drives, etc.).

* The speed of this new build is dramatically faster than the WWDC build on my DP 1.25GHz G4. Interface elements are drawn much faster, etc.

* The System Preferences have a new look: the different heading areas are highlighted, giving a striped look. I hate it, personally.

Of course there are more new goodies, but I ant to save them for the next visual tour. As I said, I’m still in the process of taking screen shots and movies, so stay tuned for another bandwidth-blowing visual tour of OS X 10.3 7B21!

Raiden

Jul 29, 2003, 08:36 AM

My god. Panther will be so powerful and awesome, even the PC nuts wont be able to deny it! I cant wait to hear the cnet reviews of panther "the best OS ever".

I thought that the WWDC panther was awesome, but now you guys are reporting all these NEW features. I cant wait!

AidenShaw

Jul 29, 2003, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Raiden
My god. Panther will be so powerful and awesome, even the PC nuts wont be able to deny it!

Right, I can't live without the "cool effect" of icons seeming to fly out at me.

Too bad that Panther's going to be 32-bit - if it were 64-bit that would be something that would at least match Apple's advertising hype for the G5.

Wonder how long it will take Apple to admit that Panther/G5 is a 32-bit system, and that Windows 64-bit desktops have been shipping for many months. Wait, I know that the answer is "never"

"Style" vs "substance", sounds like Panther's heavy on the "style".

encro

Jul 29, 2003, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Right, I can't live without the "cool effect" of icons seeming to fly out at me.

Too bad that Panther's going to be 32-bit - if it were 64-bit that would be something that would at least match Apple's advertising hype for the G5.

Wonder how long it will take Apple to admit that Panther/G5 is a 32-bit system, and that Windows 64-bit desktops have been shipping for many months. Wait, I know that the answer is "never"

"Style" vs "substance", sounds like Panther's heavy on the "style".

Now now Aidan ;) To the average user the visual effects are the stuff that will sell the new machines. It doesn't matter that the OS isnt 64bit as the benefit won't be really there because applications don't need to process numbers that large. The main benefits are going to be the memory addressing and the fact that the 970 is a faster system tacked to hypertransport.

ebow

Jul 29, 2003, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by AidenShaw Wonder how long it will take Apple to admit that Panther/G5 is a 32-bit system, and that Windows 64-bit desktops have been shipping for many months. Wait, I know that the answer is "never"

Umm... yesterday? Apple confirms Panther OS will be 32-bit (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31995.html) Unfortunately, my wintel-using friends will already be able to use that 64-bit Windows on their 64-bit consumer machines... Wait, I know the answer is "not for a good while."

lscangus

Jul 29, 2003, 11:05 AM

anyone knows where i can download a copy of the latest Panther preview? i am not a ADC member, so where i can download it? Or anyone can send it to me please?

vrapan

Jul 29, 2003, 11:21 AM

anyone knows where i can download a copy of the latest Panther preview? i am not a ADC member, so where i can download it? Or anyone can send it to me please?

I bet you can find someone.... but you do know that what you are asking is ummmm..... well not very legal and an ADC member got kicked by Apple because they tried to leak the Preview.... On top of that think twice on installing it on a machine you use everyday. You will most probably have to erase your hard drive because it does not play well with preinstalled Mac OS X versions and it still is a Preview... Keep that in mind and good luck - it might be smarter to just wait a bit and buy it when it comes out .... shouldnt be that long anyway

omnivector

Jul 29, 2003, 11:57 AM

Downloaded from ADC in fairly decent speeds - took around 10hours or so for the three CDs. Stupidly enough tried to install in on top of Panther DP and of course it stuck on looking for my accounts and it wouldn't go to the login screen. Do your self a favour and make sure you either install in on top of 10.2.6 (and even that I am not so sure about) or even better on a clear HD. Apart from that it seems much much better than the DP. A few visible improvements but responsiveness speed and stability have been improved big time. I am planning on using it full time on my main system. Good luck to everyone trying to download it. You will be rewarded handsomely though. Jag made OS X usable Panther will make it a first rate OS.

*sigh* i wish i had read that BEFORE i tried to install it on top of the WWDC panther preview, instead of finding out the hard way and canning my setup from os x 10.2.6 -> preview. i knew i'd have to format when the final panther came out, but i was hoping it wouldn't be this soon. oh well. everything seems to work fine for me except the address book.. it crashes every time i try and open it. any one getting the same or know how to fix it? i even tried logging in as another user and launching addressbook, so it shouldn't be my user prefs :(.

cnladd

Jul 29, 2003, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Too bad that Panther's going to be 32-bit - if it were 64-bit that would be something that would at least match Apple's advertising hype for the G5.

Wonder how long it will take Apple to admit that Panther/G5 is a 32-bit system, and that Windows 64-bit desktops have been shipping for many months. Wait, I know that the answer is "never"

First, I'd like to point out that there have been 64-bit desktop workstations long before the Windows desktops ship (I say this as I look at the trusty Sun and HP workstations on my desk.)

For the vast majority of users, the lack of "true" 64-bit support doesn't really matter. Even for many scientific users it's a non-issue. 64-bit support is available to the kernel, meaning that the kernel can work with the full range of available memory. However, the VM stack is still only 32-bit -- meaning that applications will only be able to address 4GB of RAM at a time.

This was the case with many "64-bit" systems when they were first released. Solaris, for example, had been running on 64-bit processors for some time before the entire OS had 64-bit support enabled. Same with HP-UX.

It should also be noted that the 64-bit version of Windows doesn't contain full binary compatibility with 32-bit code. Instead, 32-bit code is executed in a "Windows on Windows" approach very similar to that used to execute old 16-bit code on NT/2000 (complete with all of the thunking issues that existed back then.)

It's appearing as if Mac OS X will be taking a route similar to that of Solaris, maintaining full binary compatibility between current 32-bit code and future 64-bit code. The time it takes to develop core APIs that fully take advantage of the new 64-bit processor will be well worth it.

vrapan

Jul 29, 2003, 01:01 PM

except the address book.. it crashes every time i try and open it.

Same here it crashes every time I open it I have repaired permissions but still no good. Anyone suggestions?

wms121

Jul 29, 2003, 01:26 PM

he knows what he is talking about..

There are REASONS Steve and McNeally are still close friends.

Steve still needs Sun's 64 bit preeminence..especially with nice new big buddy IBM (cover your cleavage dear...) hovering over the sexy apple babes every move.

Apple COULD have 256 bit experimental boxes before 2010.

Watch for more IBM and the "new buddy" ads later this year ( saw one already in Newsweek with a G5 picture in it ,IBM processor ad).

The scientific market reallys needs more high-end mac stuff. They are doing such deeply complicated systems now ; and engineering secretaries and lab assistants are running things ; too many "design and research people" in legal meetings these days.

The 64 bit Java announcement ..when Apple makes it will be the key..not 64 bit Safari...or even 64 bit OSX.

<---don't embedd me again in Intel land

jaedreth

Jul 29, 2003, 02:47 PM

The rumors of high end workstation macs are very likely true, if nowhere near ready for release. (My guess, Dec '04)

However, these machines are targeted to a market that no one is currently targeting specifically: The Scientific Market.

Sure, these machines would be great as low end Enterprise servers and would be awesome gaming machines too, for those gamers rich enough to afford them.

Imagine Genentech buying 64 proc G5's en masse...

Think NASA.

Apple could become the premier provider of scientific computational equipment.

Jaedreth

pcharles

Jul 29, 2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by daveL
Someone else mentioned this in the first Panther 7B21 thread.

Panther 7B21 has a few improvements, and extra flash but I dont think it is significantly more stable. I've been getting a system server crash relating to menubar icons in the finder.

I do like the ghost that appears when double clicking a file and some Safari issues have been fixed.

daveL

Jul 29, 2003, 05:17 PM

FYI - the 7B21 images have been taken down from the ADC download site about 20 minutes ago. There is a note that says they are optomizing the downloads - come back later. There are also two messages in red saying they are having trouble with heavy traffic, etc. The Asia Pacific site was not given as a download option, just US1, US2, Japan, and Europe.

Just prior to this I got an email back from ADC site support saying they were actively working to bring more server capacity on-line to handle the demand. Hopefully things will get better soon.

Catfish_Man

Jul 29, 2003, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Right, I can't live without the "cool effect" of icons seeming to fly out at me.

Too bad that Panther's going to be 32-bit - if it were 64-bit that would be something that would at least match Apple's advertising hype for the G5.

Wonder how long it will take Apple to admit that Panther/G5 is a 32-bit system, and that Windows 64-bit desktops have been shipping for many months. Wait, I know that the answer is "never"

"Style" vs "substance", sounds like Panther's heavy on the "style".

What exactly would a 64 bit OS do for you? Allow you to use 64 bit addressing? Panther does that. Allow you to do 64 bit math? Panther does that. The only thing I can think of is being able to scale to very large systems by having the system itself use more than 4 gigs of ram (as opposed to the system + apps). Panther is not very heavy on style, it's heavy on workflow enhancements (exposé, dramatically improved preview and PDF handling for example), and security (FileVault, improved password handling). The "style" changes are actually quite minor. Roughly the same level of changes as 10.1->10.2 except for the evil brushed metal Finder.

Adurbe

Jul 29, 2003, 05:50 PM

for ADC to have to stop the d/l of the update due to the strain means there is BIG demand and i am surprised apples servers could not handle it...

jaedreth

Jul 29, 2003, 06:23 PM

I'm not surprised.

Jaedreth

daveL

Jul 29, 2003, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Adurbe
for ADC to have to stop the d/l of the update due to the strain means there is BIG demand and i am surprised apples servers could not handle it...
I just checked again and the images have not been put back yet. There's no info on when they will be available.

Man, has this been frustrating!

daveL

Jul 29, 2003, 10:10 PM

As an update (I'm assuming I'm not the only one interested, but I could be wrong :) Currently ADC is showing the same warnings. Japan has now dropped off the site selection list (just US and Europe). The 7B21 images are back, listed as file type "segments" with no size, but the note to come back later is still posted. If you click the download button, nothing happens.

There is no joy in Mudville.

gregorypierce

Jul 29, 2003, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by vrapan
Downloaded from ADC in fairly decent speeds - took around 10hours or so for the three CDs. Stupidly enough tried to install in on top of Panther DP and of course it stuck on looking for my accounts and it wouldn't go to the login screen. Do your self a favour and make sure you either install in on top of 10.2.6 (and even that I am not so sure about) or even better on a clear HD. Apart from that it seems much much better than the DP. A few visible improvements but responsiveness speed and stability have been improved big time. I am planning on using it full time on my main system. Good luck to everyone trying to download it. You will be rewarded handsomely though. Jag made OS X usable Panther will make it a first rate OS.

Yeah, the load for Apple is apparently so high that it has simply been removed from the ADC servers altogether. Funny stuff.

gregorypierce

Jul 29, 2003, 10:24 PM

There are actually a good number of features that are new even in the WWDC release that I don't hear people talking about. One thing for certain, we didn't really notice the new features as much in Jaguar because the OS needed to get a ton faster. Now there are seemingly so many new features that we'll be discovering them for days. I've been through the DP since WWDC and I'm still running across new stuff from time to time.

simX

Jul 30, 2003, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
"Style" vs "substance", sounds like Panther's heavy on the "style".

Hmm, seems someone hasn't heard about Expose, FileVault, fast user switching, dramatically improved Preview, Font Book, built-in faxing, TextEdit opening Microsoft Word documents, Mail.app and iCal supporting Exchange meeting requests (http://www.macosrumors.com), iDisk improvements, option to require password on waking, Auto Start Up and Shut Down, being able to customize keyboard shortcuts for any application, cloning drives from Disk Utility, Finder labels, etc., etc., etc.

I dunno about you, but it seems to me that Panther's heavy on the "substance".

AidenShaw

Jul 30, 2003, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by Catfish_Man
What exactly would a 64 bit OS do for you? Allow you to use 64 bit addressing? Panther does that.

If so, please explain how? Is it true 64-bit, so that the standard malloc call returns a 64-bit pointer? Do all system calls (I/O, graphics, frameworks) accept 64-bit pointers?

Or is there a mutant 64-bit malloc, e.g. malloc64, that returns a 64-bit pointer while the standard call returns a 32-bit pointer.

If there are two different sizes of pointers, do you get two different classes of memory? Do you have to copy data between 32-bit buffers and 64-bit buffers in order to do I/O with it?

All we know for sure is that Panther's O/S is able to use more that 4 GiB of physical memory, and to divide that up among 32-bit processes. Just like Windows and Linux do on x86 systems with up to 64 GiB of RAM today. Just like 32-bit VMS did on Alpha systems, just like 16-bit PDP-11 operating systems did 30 years ago.

If you have proof of application-level access to extended virtual addressing, please post it.

Originally posted by Catfish_Man
Allow you to do 64 bit math? Panther does that.

My 32-bit Windows and Linux systems do native 64-bit floating point, with full 64-bit datapaths.

The only difference with the PPC970 is that 64-bit integers become native - on x86 you need to use the SSE2 for 64-bit integers or (more commonly) synthesize using multiple 32-bit integer operations.

For the small number of applications which have significant 64-bit integer code, this is a win for the PPC970. How much of a advantage is open for speculation - since the superscalar O-O-O-E chips like the x86 can run multiple integer operations in parallel. Only benchmarks of 64-bit integer-heavy apps will be able to answer this question.

(BTW, are you sure that it is possible to use 64-bit integers while in 32-bit mode on the PPC970? I was trying to read the PPC documentation to determine this, and some references imply that the "32-bit mode" sets the effective integer register width, which would mean that a 32-bit program could not do native 64-bit integers.)

Anyway, thanks for the list of non-stylistic enhancements.

pcharles

Jul 30, 2003, 09:11 AM

Does anyone even know how to get faxing to work from a Mac? It doesn't seem to work with any of my machines. I've tried every fax program and get the same problem. The fax is created, phone dialed, recipient fax machine answers, and then they cannot negotiate a connection so it is dropped.

Very frustrating and the same is true in 10.3

Any ideas???

Anyway, after a few days, Mail is definitely improved and some modifications are quite apparent in Expose. Apple seems to be working on the visual snap to make the OS move faster than it really does. I think M$ does this also. The built in Zipping is nice, but primative and I'd rather they improved burning. The problem is that much more burning could put Roxio out of business and Apple might not want to go down the path taken by M$ and eliminate all competition.

The other thing we REALLY need is a new version of AppleWorks. I dont use it a lot, but I might if it did what I wanted and worked with Endnote.

Macbear

Jul 30, 2003, 09:12 AM

I've only been using 7B21 for about a day. So far, I'm impressed. It does seem considerably faster, and I was able to install it over the previous Panther DR without a problem.

I've run in to one odd, and somewhat amusing bug. I can't minimize finder windows to the dock using the yellow minimize button. When I click on the minimize button, the finder window "genie effects" down to the dock, then pops right back out again and "sticks" to my pointer. In other words, when the finder window pops back up, it follows the movement of my mouse unless I click again to release it. Strangely, I can minimize finder windows by double clicking on their title bars just fine. And, windows in all other apps minimize normally with the yellow minimize buttons. The finder windows just don't want to stay in the dock when using the minimize button. They seem to love being close to my cursor. I guess I should find this annoying, but it just strikes me funny. Small things... small minds.

Has anyone else run in to this bug? Could it only be on my machine? I wonder...

This didn't happen in the first Panther DR by the way.

Cheers,
The Macbear

cnladd

Jul 30, 2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Macbear
I've only been using 7B21 for about a day. So far, I'm impressed. It does seem considerably faster, and I was able to install it over the previous Panther DR without a problem.

I've run in to one odd, and somewhat amusing bug. I can't minimize finder windows to the dock using the yellow minimize button. When I click on the minimize button, the finder window "genie effects" down to the dock, then pops right back out again and "sticks" to my pointer. In other words, when the finder window pops back up, it follows the movement of my mouse unless I click again to release it. Strangely, I can minimize finder windows by double clicking on their title bars just fine. And, windows in all other apps minimize normally with the yellow minimize buttons. The finder windows just don't want to stay in the dock when using the minimize button. They seem to love being close to my cursor. I guess I should find this annoying, but it just strikes me funny. Small things... small minds.

Has anyone else run in to this bug? Could it only be on my machine? I wonder...

This didn't happen in the first Panther DR by the way.

Cheers,
The Macbear

That happens to me on occassion, and I'm still running on the first Panther build (with the test update from SUPP). It doesn't happen all the time, and there doesn't seem to be a method to that madness.

daveL

Jul 30, 2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
If so, please explain how? Is it true 64-bit, so that the standard malloc call returns a 64-bit pointer? Do all system calls (I/O, graphics, frameworks) accept 64-bit pointers?

Or is there a mutant 64-bit malloc, e.g. malloc64, that returns a 64-bit pointer while the standard call returns a 32-bit pointer.

If there are two different sizes of pointers, do you get two different classes of memory? Do you have to copy data between 32-bit buffers and 64-bit buffers in order to do I/O with it?

All we know for sure is that Panther's O/S is able to use more that 4 GiB of physical memory, and to divide that up among 32-bit processes. Just like Windows and Linux do on x86 systems with up to 64 GiB of RAM today. Just like 32-bit VMS did on Alpha systems, just like 16-bit PDP-11 operating systems did 30 years ago.

If you have proof of application-level access to extended virtual addressing, please post it.

My 32-bit Windows and Linux systems do native 64-bit floating point, with full 64-bit datapaths.

The only difference with the PPC970 is that 64-bit integers become native - on x86 you need to use the SSE2 for 64-bit integers or (more commonly) synthesize using multiple 32-bit integer operations.

For the small number of applications which have significant 64-bit integer code, this is a win for the PPC970. How much of a advantage is open for speculation - since the superscalar O-O-O-E chips like the x86 can run multiple integer operations in parallel. Only benchmarks of 64-bit integer-heavy apps will be able to answer this question.

(BTW, are you sure that it is possible to use 64-bit integers while in 32-bit mode on the PPC970? I was trying to read the PPC documentation to determine this, and some references imply that the "32-bit mode" sets the effective integer register width, which would mean that a 32-bit program could not do native 64-bit integers.)

Anyway, thanks for the list of non-stylistic enhancements.
Apple has already stated, in public, that Panther is *not* a 64-bit OS, so why don't you all just chill. As someone else pointed out, the G5 and OS X have just *started* what will be a gradual and generally seamless transition to 64-bit computing, that also supports 32-bit apps, ala Sun Micro and Solaris. Ya got it now?

-----

On a different topic, the 7B21 downloads have been fixed on the ADC site. However, I couldn't get them to start with Safari, and I can't seem to determine the password token to do direct ftp. I've had to resort to IE. Japan and Asia Pacific are not showing up as available download sites, at least here in the US, as the used to.

scoop

Jul 30, 2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by vrapan
Same here it crashes every time I open it I have repaired permissions but still no good. Anyone suggestions?

I get that too. From the error message, it seems to be related to Bluetooth being checked upon startup of AddressBook.

Even disabling Bluetooth altogether via the PrefPane didn't help.

Do you guys have Bluetooth adapters or built-in bluetooth with your machines?

jaedreth

Jul 30, 2003, 01:42 PM

Have you guys gone to Utilities to Directory Access, and manually shut off Bluetooth?

Jaedreth

vrapan

Jul 30, 2003, 01:42 PM

I got a 12" PB so bluetooth is built in....

scoop

Jul 30, 2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by jaedreth
Have you guys gone to Utilities to Directory Access, and manually shut off Bluetooth?

Hmm. Actually I don't see anything related to Bluetooth in Directory Access. I shut it off via the Bluetooth Preference Pane but that didn't do anything.

jaedreth

Jul 30, 2003, 02:00 PM

I'm going from memory here, don't have my iBook with me.

Also, I'm running off of 10.1 and 10.2 knowledge, I'm not a paying developer.

In Directory Access there is a place where you can turn off services you don't need, such as Bluetooth, Rendevous, and even SMB. A services tab? I don't remember. I'll post late tonight when I get home if you can't find it. Or it may not be in your build, it is beta...

Jaedreth

scoop

Jul 30, 2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by jaedreth
In Directory Access there is a place where you can turn off services you don't need, such as Bluetooth, Rendevous, and even SMB. A services tab? I don't remember.

There's no Bluetooth service in Directory Access in either 10.2 or the 10.3 betas for me. Both versions almost identical, they seem to have dropped NIS and LDAPv2 from 10.3 though.

The rest includes Apple Talk, BSD Configuration Files, LDAPv3, NetInfo, Rendevous, SLP and SMB. And there's indeed a "Services" tab :)

jaedreth

Jul 30, 2003, 02:08 PM

Damn them... *heh*

Sorry I couldn't be of help then...

Jaedreth

gordyt

Jul 30, 2003, 08:26 PM

Hi Omnivector,

Originally posted by omnivector
everything seems to work fine for me except the address book.. it crashes every time i try and open it. any one getting the same or know how to fix it? i even tried logging in as another user and launching addressbook, so it shouldn't be my user prefs :(.

I'm having the exact same experience. I just installed 7B21 today. I used the intallation option where it copies your current system over to a "Previous Systems" folder, but preserves user settings.

As you mentioned all seems well except for Address Book. I even tried moving all of the Address Book related files from my ~/Library folder elsewhere and running it -- same problem.

If you do come across a fix please do let us know!

--gordon

gordyt

Jul 30, 2003, 08:32 PM

Hey Scoop,

Originally posted by scoop
Do you guys have Bluetooth adapters or built-in bluetooth with your machines? [/B]

I'm using one of the 17" PB's with built-in Bluetooth. Like the others, I have it disabled and I'm still getting the Address Book crash.

--g

AidenShaw

Jul 30, 2003, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by daveL
Apple has already stated, in public, that Panther is *not* a 64-bit OS, so why don't you all just chill.

When Apple says that it's 32-bits, I'll chill....

Tell them to cut this crap out until the O/S supports the chip!

http://a772.g.akamai.net/7/772/51/b17df8b651c6b3/www.apple.com/powermac/images/indextop06232003.jpghttp://a772.g.akamai.net/7/772/51/a0b78edb9e0fb0/www.apple.com/powermac/images/indextitle06232003.gif

pcharles

Jul 30, 2003, 10:07 PM

I dont understand all the fuss about 64 bit. It is only of interest to people who manipulate HUGE files requiring over 2GB of RAM.

It will NOT make most of your task faster so it is irrelevant that Panther is 32bit with 64 bit support. A worse problem might be for Panther to be 64 bit with 32 bit support. This would mean all your 32 bit apps could be considered as running emulation.

Forget 64 bit until your apps are 64 bit.

AidenShaw

Jul 30, 2003, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by pcharles
I dont understand all the fuss about 64 bit. It is only of interest to people who manipulate HUGE files requiring over 2GB of RAM.

Actually, 2 GiB files aren't relevant.

I often work with video files that are a couple of hundred GiB in size. Works fine on a 32-bit computer, since only a few seconds of video are ever resident in memory at any instant.

It's streaming through the hundreds of gigs, but 32-bits is fine for the few dozens of megabytes that need to be worked with at any point in time.

You don't need 64-bits for large files....

Originally posted by pcharles
Forget 64 bit until your apps are 64 bit.

Grasshopper, I see that you truly understand the universe! ;)

pcharles

Jul 31, 2003, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by AidenShaw

You don't need 64-bits for large files....

I quite agree. Although video editing software never really works with the huge files, just "images" of them. So, in most cases the files are not actually hundreds of GB. I work with with FCP to develop educational videos and the project files are rarely more than MB because it links out to the media. Even iMovie and iDVD do this. The project folder can be many GB, but the individual files are smaller. The only time I ever break this rule is when importing from Analog video cassettes to one single file using FCP. Even then it is written to hard drive.

I could see that a rewrite of cleaner or sorenson pro would be great in 64 bit because it could then read analyze and compress much larger chunks and that would probably speed up the process. How much, however, is a question.

The 64Bit addressing could allow companies such as Adobe and Apple to rewrite this kind of software so that it reads 2, 4, or 6 GB of data into memory and allows you to manipulate that if it could predict what you wanted to do next.

I think the main advantage will come with HUGE databases because larger chunks of them will now reside in memory and be searched a lot easier.

It seems that for now, however, the 64bit addressing is less important than some of Panthers more entertaining features such as:

1. Much improved open/save dialogs that offer several of the default folder options a sidebar, click-to-rename, resizable panes

2. Updated Mail which displays perfectly rendered HTML. This is becoming a superb email application.

3. Preview has many new features including the ability to select and copy chunks of text and images as well as perform a cropping.

4. I much improved and streamlined disk utility-disk copy application

5. Finder level zipping under a pop-up menu.

6. Desktop Printer Icons returning with the new print setup

7. Integrated remote desktop server

8. iChatAV

9. Dual 2GHz with potential for Dual 3GHz

All of which, I believe, are immediately more beneficial to most people than the ability to install 8GB of RAM

daveL

Jul 31, 2003, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by pcharles
I dont understand all the fuss about 64 bit. It is only of interest to people who manipulate HUGE files requiring over 2GB of RAM.

It will NOT make most of your task faster so it is irrelevant that Panther is 32bit with 64 bit support. A worse problem might be for Panther to be 64 bit with 32 bit support. This would mean all your 32 bit apps could be considered as running emulation.

Forget 64 bit until your apps are 64 bit.
There isn't any "emulation" on PPC, just like there isn't any "emulation" on Sun UltraSPARC. They both run 32-bit and 64-bit with equal well.

AidenShaw:

It's called marketing. Deal with it. Sun Micro did the same thing with UltraSPARC: First they built the hardware, then they gradually transitioned to a true 64-bit OS, with the ability to continue to run 32-bit apps. They advertised the UltraSPARC hardware as having 64-bit processors before the OS support was there. Maybe you should expend some of your apparent zeal for monitoring high tech marketing on a Sun forum? I'm personally tired of hearing you rant.

Delta-9

Jul 31, 2003, 05:36 PM

The default shell has been changed from "/bin/tcsh" to "/bin/bash" -- I've have actually used tcsh as my normal shell ever since my first shell account back on unixs.cis.pitt.edu.

When I try and change my shell from /bin/bash to /bin/tcsh it doesn't exactly work. I don't recall this issue with WWDC 10.3, anyone else notice this?

Another thing.. when I use scp to copy files from my iBook to my linux box I get a strange kerberos login popup in OSX. I have to cancel that popup 2x and then I get a "password:" prompt back in terminal.

daveL

Jul 31, 2003, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Delta-9
The default shell has been changed from "/bin/tcsh" to "/bin/bash" -- I've have actually used tcsh as my normal shell ever since my first shell account back on unixs.cis.pitt.edu.

When I try and change my shell from /bin/bash to /bin/tcsh it doesn't exactly work. I don't recall this issue with WWDC 10.3, anyone else notice this?

Another thing.. when I use scp to copy files from my iBook to my linux box I get a strange kerberos login popup in OSX. I have to cancel that popup 2x and then I get a "password:" prompt back in terminal.
You didn't say how you were chaning the shell; you don't do it in /etc/passwd. You have to use the netinfo utility to change it in your user entry. This is also where you can enable the root login. Maybe you already know this? I use Bash, so I haven't had a reason to chnage it in 10.3, but that's how I changed it in 10.2.

Looks like the default setting for scp is to use Kerberos authentication, with a fall-back to simple passwords. There must be a config file somewhere.

jaedreth

Jul 31, 2003, 06:01 PM

Yay. I just changed my stuff from tcsh to bash, and I'm still trying to correct all my paths and scripts so they will work again.

So after this momentous work I have ahead of me, once I get it all working, if OS X 10.3 uses Bash, then I won't have to change it again or back up. Yay.

Jaedreth

Delta-9

Jul 31, 2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by daveL
You didn't say how you were chaning the shell; you don't do it in /etc/passwd. You have to use the netinfo utility to change it in your user entry. This is also where you can enable the root login. Maybe you already know this? I use Bash, so I haven't had a reason to chnage it in 10.3, but that's how I changed it in 10.2.

Looks like the default setting for scp is to use Kerberos authentication, with a fall-back to simple passwords. There must be a config file somewhere.

Thanks for the information. I was trying to change it in: Terminal > Preferences. The same place my friend used in 10.2 to change his from the default (tcsh) to bash. I tried changing it there and it did not "take."

As far as the scp/kerberos thing goes, I had no idea where/how to change/configure that.

Delta-9

Jul 31, 2003, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by daveL
You didn't say how you were chaning the shell; you don't do it in /etc/passwd.

Actually I did try changing it via "chsh" which, essentually changes it in /etc/passwd, but I figured there had to be another way to do it, which is why I mentioned that I tried the Terminal > Preferences and didn't mention "chsh"

-d9

BWhaler

Jul 31, 2003, 06:41 PM

Thanks everyone for the interesting updates. (I am not a developer, so I will have to wait until I can buy it.)

Any comments on a new iCal? Everything sounds so exciting about Panther, but no news on what I consider the very worst of the iApps.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. iCal gives me headaches everyday, but I suffer through it since I don't want my data locked up by M$ in some proprietary file format with no export options. (You can tell I am still bitter about the experience of switching from the PC and getting my--MY--information out of Outlook.)

Thanks.