PDA

View Full Version : Bizarre Creations: PGR4




Coded-Dude
Jul 31, 2007, 12:49 PM
So, before I post - it is just news - lets discuss it constructively and rationally......:)

Bizarre Creations has been forced to change Project Gotham Racing 4's lighting options due to the size limitations of a DVD.
You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD. So we've worked around the problem by providing different lighting models per city. For example, Macau is always in the daytime, but if you play it during a storm everything looks darker and more foreboding. If you play during a blizzard then things are slightly tinged blue and everything seems more frozen. Of course, playing this track in sunshine will make everything appear bright and yellowy.
link to Bizarre website with staff explanation (http://www.bizarrecreations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=14802&p=)

Now while some saw this coming(maybe just not this soon), others are probably still in denial....but programming for the top end consoles this gen(360 and PS3) is gonna take up a lot of space. Of course there are "other" solutions - such as multiple discs, HDD installs, etc. - but the latter is only a solution if every machine had a hard drive. Multiple discs would definitely work, but could(and probably would) pose as a negative mark when your run of the mill ignorant, idiotic gaming consumers is making a purchase decision. Lets face it, the majority of the populace bases their decisions on what the media tells them(instead of using their own informed opinion).

Many devs say the two consoles are relatively similar(CPU/GPU), but with a larger optical storage capacity and HDD standard, we may begin to see other "differences" in games before we thought. It will be interesting to see how this issue continues to evolve, and what OTHER dev teams decide to do when faced with similar decisions.

Would you sacrifice anything(lighting, textures, overall game length, etc), or would you bite the bullet and go for the multi-disc solution. You could(as a dev team) also get a little cocky and sell "elite" copies of the game that do allow for HDD install. Of course that would mean the "Regular" edition would have to fall below standard retail prices, or the "Elite" edition will be pricier than standard retail pricing.



Sky Blue
Jul 31, 2007, 12:52 PM
Can't they just put it on Blu-Ray and run it off the soon to be released Xbox Blu-Ray drive?

zero2dash
Jul 31, 2007, 01:21 PM
Given that we've survived as gamers this long on DVD...I think this gen is safe.

Next gen will absolutely need a higher capacity format, whether it's BluRay, HD-DVD, downloadable games, or something altogether 'new'.

Dagless
Jul 31, 2007, 01:23 PM
Multidisc for a racing game? Heavens no.

I find it very hard to believe, unless these are ungodly sized textures. All a racing game consists of is track data (maps and textures), audio, a physics engine and UI. There's no story so no cutscenes, no giant worlds? I'm now expecting this game to have more tracks than F-Zero GX and I hope Bizarre don't disappoint.

That said if it came down to it I'd still pick the 360 version. Everything else aside - only 1 system has Live. No amount of night/day cycles will change that.

e˛Studios
Jul 31, 2007, 01:24 PM
Given that we've survived as gamers this long on DVD...I think this gen is safe.

Next gen will absolutely need a higher capacity format, whether it's BluRay, HD-DVD, downloadable games, or something altogether 'new'.

One could have said the same exact thing about CD based games ;)

Mid 2008 the 360 will start to feel the pain more which is unfortunate for the userbase, but it wouldn't be the first time MS has screwed their userbase with poor hardware choices.

Ed

steamboat26
Jul 31, 2007, 01:26 PM
I'd rather get everything on one disk, forza 2 only has one type of weather, and i love it. So long as the cars look good, and so does the environment, i'm happy

zero2dash
Jul 31, 2007, 01:27 PM
Yeah but the majority of the games around the time of CD-based games were 2D which required less space. 3D games were still (for the most part) in infancy on CD-based systems. Next gen though, again...definitely needs better than DVD because the texture and polygon work will only climb higher and higher.

Coded-Dude
Jul 31, 2007, 01:30 PM
^^Which is what I am saying.......for a racing game, it would be nice to have a fully customizable environment(time of day/lighting), but doesn't really impair the game. However, in other games lighting plays an important role in immersing one into the "world," so what gets cut ion that instance? A level, a few cutscenes, number of unique textures, etc.? It will be interesting to see what each dev does.

wwooden
Jul 31, 2007, 01:43 PM
I bet the 360 will get through 2008 without too many problems using DVD. Good developers will be able to utilize the space efficiently and create cross platform games that have the same features.

I think that as we get into 2009 the DVD may become a bottle neck for the 360 and I wouldn't be shocked if Microsoft came out with an all new XBox, they seem to be changing the rules of consoles as they go.

I really don't think we will ever get to a point where games will be completely downloaded over the internet. Having a hard drive only leaves a finite amount of space for games, while if you have them on disk you can have unlimited games in your inventory. Also, as the years go on in a consoles life, the games get more complex and use up more space so it would mean even fewer could be stored on a drive.

I really wonder what Microsoft will use after the DVD. With HD-DVD still in questions (I am an early adopter of the HD-DVD 360 drive), would they be willing to install a Blu-Ray drive if HD-DVD dies?

Sdashiki
Jul 31, 2007, 01:46 PM
Dual-Layer DVDs exist...?

Though most choose not to use them for the high cost of production.

But, how much does Blu-Ray & HDDVD gonna cost to produce?

bobber205
Jul 31, 2007, 01:50 PM
When all the 360s die at once and M$ has to do free replacements, that'll be a perfect opportunity to sneak in new HDDVD/Bluray drives.

JackAxe
Jul 31, 2007, 02:00 PM
DL DVDs still cost less than HD DVD and BR discs from what I recall and they even work on my 1999 Sony DVD player. The fact that this dev team couldn't fit a racing game on an 8 Gig disc makes me wonder... Maybe they shouldn't hire so many interns/cheap-labor. :] These are the same types of peeps that can't work in lower rezes and generally botch the overall art quality do to their inexperience.

<]=)

Sdashiki
Jul 31, 2007, 02:18 PM
8.5gb

:)

Dagless
Jul 31, 2007, 02:26 PM
DL DVDs still cost less than HD DVD and BR discs from what I recall and they even work on my 1999 Sony DVD player. The fact that this dev team couldn't fit a racing game on an 8 Gig disc makes me wonder...

Exactly.

That said this studio isn't an exclusive developer. Or perhaps Sony dropped a wad in their pocket :D Best thing to not trust any large developer any more until their games are out.

And I hope HD's do become the next gen storage device. Publishers won't have to plump out the disc with filler, FMV will be abolished (still surprised to see it isn't with the power of these consoles). Just make them detachable so I can take games to my friends houses :D

steamboat26
Jul 31, 2007, 02:28 PM
8.5gb

:)

Wait, they haven't already been putting games on DL DVDs?
I thought that was the reason so many people were gripping about space limitations?
What am i missing here? :confused:

Sdashiki
Jul 31, 2007, 02:59 PM
Wait, they haven't already been putting games on DL DVDs?
I thought that was the reason so many people were gripping about space limitations?
What am i missing here? :confused:

not many games are on DL, it can create lots of problems that programmers have to deal with.

Like what data goes on what layer, and how does that data correspond to data on the opposite layer? The laser has to refocus over and over to switch layers so giving alot of thought as to how to lay the data out on the disc, might be a reason.

zero2dash
Jul 31, 2007, 03:10 PM
Gigs? Pshaw.

Our Xbox daddy Bill Gates said that "640K of memory should be enough for anybody", so Bizzare should be ashamed...ashamed I say!!! :D

Chone
Jul 31, 2007, 03:22 PM
Gigs? Pshaw.

Our Xbox daddy Bill Gates said that "640K of memory should be enough for anybody", so Bizzare should be ashamed...ashamed I say!!! :D

That is like the most cliche joke ever... its not funny anymore.

Now I don't get this, they can fit games like Crysis and Unreal Tournament 2007 on DVD9 and they can't fit a racing game on it? No one will argue that Crysis has better graphics than anything out there and yet it barely needs a dual layer dvd :rolleyes:

GFLPraxis
Jul 31, 2007, 03:23 PM
Multidisc for a racing game? Heavens no.

I find it very hard to believe, unless these are ungodly sized textures. All a racing game consists of is track data (maps and textures), audio, a physics engine and UI. There's no story so no cutscenes, no giant worlds? I'm now expecting this game to have more tracks than F-Zero GX and I hope Bizarre don't disappoint.

That said if it came down to it I'd still pick the 360 version. Everything else aside - only 1 system has Live. No amount of night/day cycles will change that.

PGR4 has a very large number of highly detailed buildings. Each building has very high-res textures for each wall. Extremely detailed environments.

Coded-Dude
Jul 31, 2007, 03:29 PM
Guys....this is not some multi-platform game/team we are talking about here. PGR was a launch XBOX game, PGR3 was a launch 360 game.
(2 and 4 are their respective follow ups for each console)

It has only been developed exclusively on DVD for the XBOX platform. If there is one thing these guys know, its XBOX development.
(considering the praise PGR gets in the gaming community)

This is not like some 3rd party dev that was strictly PS/Ninty centric decided to jump over and make an XBOX game.....they have been making XBOX games from the start.


Games like Crysis and UT have lots of compressed data that gets unloaded to the HDD.
(which can't be done on the 360, without making the game unplayable for some)

Dagless
Jul 31, 2007, 03:34 PM
Games like Crysis and UT have lots of compressed data that gets unloaded to the HDD.
(which can't be done on the 360, without making the game unplayable for some)

But they're coming to the 360... ?

Coded-Dude
Jul 31, 2007, 03:39 PM
UT is, Crysis is still up in the air.....correct?

Either way I don't expect either console version to match the PC version.
Except of course the PS3 is getting mods for UT, that are interchangeable with the PC version
(which is probably due to it having HDD)

Haoshiro
Jul 31, 2007, 04:01 PM
That seems dumb, if they used good dynamic lighting they dont need new textures, maybe new shaders...

What is BC in, the stone age?

MacRumorUser
Jul 31, 2007, 04:04 PM
PGR4 has a very large number of highly detailed buildings. Each building has very high-res textures for each wall. Extremely detailed environments.

They aren't 'THAT' high res. Assuming that the textures have to fit in memory and there isn't that many courses / location changes then I truly find it hard to believe.

PGR3 wasnt that great graphically, and the textures on the buildings and people were not that great up close.

Are Bizzare Creations playing a financial leverage game ? Where they start to bad mouth M$ in the 1 area where there is a difference between the ps3 & 360 and hope that either M$ stumps up more money to keep them happy, and if that doesnt work - open the door for some future ps3 spin off.

Remember PGR as an IP is owned by the publisher Microsoft, not the developer.






edit..... further expansion

IF !! and that's a big IF there comes a time this generation that DVD-DL would not hold the game data, I expect M$ to allow developers to have games which insist on the HDD to play.

After all they already expect users in Europe to have 60hz sets for most games, and Backwards Compatability requires the HDD too - so it's not that out of the question.

I can envision a time where the premium 360 will replace the core machine completely as the low end SKU and the Elite will become available in white and replace the current premium.

Will it isolate some gamers. Yes it may, but the reality is that most people with cores without a HDD will probably go out and buy a new HDD anyway which then generates more $$$ for M$

2nyRiggz
Jul 31, 2007, 04:40 PM
Will it isolate some gamers. Yes it may, but the reality is that most people with cores without a HDD will probably go out and buy a new HDD anyway which then generates more $$$ for M$

Indeed.....want to play the game then get a hard drive...thats going to be MS next statment on the matter. They don't cost much anyway:confused:



Bless

Coded-Dude
Jul 31, 2007, 04:57 PM
further "clarification" as per the thread(from Bizarre Creations) I linked above:
Wow, some kind of reaction to this one folks. Yes, it's really worth just reiterating what The Boy has said above me. We've got double the number of locations this time around, and lots of new features and graphics which all take up valuable disc real-estate. We could have just shipped with the 5 new cities in PGR4, but we chose to put all of them in there because of the new motorcycles and weather conditions which really bring the old cities into a new light.

I think everybody will agree that having twice the number of locations is better than having day & night textures for each.

Multiple disc or DLC options are not really viable for all of the reasons already outlined in this thread. No matter what the size of your optical media is, there will ALWAYS be limitations. It's the job of Bizarre to work inside those limitations and make the game the best it can be within them. Which is what we're doing right now

This one is fro you jimmi. ;)
As for Crysis - there are meny techniques which could be used in this kind of game, i.e.: lots of prefabs. You build 20 trees, place them randomly, scale their leaves and trunks, light the bark differently and voila - you have a forest full of trees which all look different, yet only using 20 models.

Try building a prefab london

They still say they are gonna "Blow your socks off" with this game, but this is a blow to MS as far as the general consumer is concerned.
(having devs admit sacrifices, that were dismissed as non-issues previously, have to be made)

Dagless
Jul 31, 2007, 05:15 PM
That seems dumb, if they used good dynamic lighting they dont need new textures, maybe new shaders...

What is BC in, the stone age?

Haha. Good point. Try games like Zelda, Oblivion or any other night/day cycle game... they don't load up new textures when it gets dark.

As for prefabs, that would explain the trees yes. But the amount of HD textures and maps for a whole island? (edit: and space ship, and frozen island...)
and BTW, if they're sharing textures, then it's just a polygon model that differenciates buildings and the positioning of the textures and other bits (windows etc).

sikkinixx
Jul 31, 2007, 06:39 PM
They still say they are gonna "Blow your socks off" with this game, but this is a blow to MS as far as the general consumer is concerned.
(having devs admit sacrifices, that were dismissed as non-issues previously, have to be made)

hardly a blow to the general consumer since the general consumer won't expect as much as the informed consumer and probably won't even know about 'maxing out' the DVD.

I assumed this would happen at some point but didn't really expect it until the tail end of the generation. What picks me is how MS did this to themselves and in turn to me, the consumer. They could have avoided any problems by simply including a hard drive with every unit, then they could have used it for some extra space or faster load times or whatever and let me have the content.

Then again, people who bought the Core should be punished for being igorant consumers and buying a SKU which is clearly far below that of the "Premium" bundle.

In short:

everyone is to blame but me. :p;):D

Sdashiki
Jul 31, 2007, 07:29 PM
Not that I like Bill, but what I believe he meant when he said:

640k is enough

he could have easily meant CPU cache, which if you look today, isnt that far from 640k.

zero2dash
Aug 1, 2007, 09:06 AM
How is it that other racing games on the 360 can have lots of places to race/tracks, and different lighting/weather conditions, yet they don't have space issues? DiRT, Forza 2, MotoGP '07 etc.

I think they're being sloppy with texture work, and on top of that I'm sure the gpu supports texture compression (I remember a time when none did but that was years ago; I assume they all do now).

gloss
Aug 1, 2007, 09:57 AM
How is it that other racing games on the 360 can have lots of places to race/tracks, and different lighting/weather conditions, yet they don't have space issues? DiRT, Forza 2, MotoGP '07 etc.

I think they're being sloppy with texture work, and on top of that I'm sure the gpu supports texture compression (I remember a time when none did but that was years ago; I assume they all do now).

Have you seen how ridiculous the texturing is in PGR4? It's a really fantastic-looking game. I can believe that they're reaching the limits of the format.

MacRumorUser
Aug 1, 2007, 10:07 AM
Have you seen how ridiculous the texturing is in PGR4? It's a really fantastic-looking game. I can believe that they're reaching the limits of the format.

But all that texturing has to fit into gpu memory for the course surely ?

Hence I still don't see the size problem. Yes they may have 20 courses in said city, but it's the same buildings and city albeit slightly different route, so therefore the textures are still the same ones being reused.

gloss
Aug 1, 2007, 10:24 AM
But all that texturing has to fit into gpu memory for the course surely ?

Hence I still don't see the size problem. Yes they may have 20 courses in said city, but it's the same buildings and city albeit slightly different route, so therefore the textures are still the same ones being reused.

Well, I'm just pointing out that from what I've seen of the game, I can believe it. Every building appears uniquely textured, so many different routes through the city could result in a huge variety of textures to load.

I am, of course, pulling all this from my arse. I've got no science behind me. =)

Coded-Dude
Aug 1, 2007, 10:54 AM
http://www.bizarrecreations.com/images/news_content/10-07-07/macaubike08.jpg

http://www.bizarrecreations.com/images/news_content/10-07-07/macaubike12.jpg

http://www.bizarrecreations.com/images/news_content/10-07-07/macaubike09.jpg

steamboat26
Aug 1, 2007, 11:47 AM
PGR4 definitely looks better than Forza 2. And forza 2 really only had one weather condition, and it didn't feel like there are very many tracks (hopefully there will be a download pack soon.)

zero2dash
Aug 1, 2007, 12:29 PM
Gears probably had a ton of texture work and they fit all that in. :rolleyes:

That's my point...games that look equally impressive ended up ok. What's the trouble with a (great looking) racing game that undoubtedly doesn't need to be crystal clear most of the time on textures since you're racing by at 200+ mph? /shrug

zero2dash
Aug 2, 2007, 01:07 PM
Debunked! :D

http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257

Disc-oh?
Wrong end of stick been grasped?
Wednesday, August 01 2007

As I'm sure you've seen, some of the comments made on our forum have been blown out of all proportion. This has been reported on certain web sites. It seems that a number of fanboys have jumped on the topic... sigh. So it's time we cleared this one up...

When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.

The previous game, PGR3, had five environments. That's how much we could create given our time and resources for that game. With the longer development cycle we've had for PGR4, as well as the advantage of having final hardware, we wanted to create a far bigger and better game by this time including 10 environments, as well as a whole bunch of new gameplay features.

Rather than having two "fixed" times of day, this time around we decided to use our time to create a dynamic weather system, which effectively creates a much more dramatic palette from which to work with. To show you where we're coming from, have a look at this screenshot crop sheet. This is something we use internally to compare our environments, lighting, and weather effects... but it's certainly useful for demonstrating the breadth of the game here!

Environments Crop Sheet
Click for larger size... (aprx. 5MB)

We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.

Each next-gen format has its own merits. We should know, as we're currently developing games for all of them in one form or another. It's not a case of one system having less of this, and the other having more of that. As developers we are given a fixed platform, and that's what we work with. At the end of the day we're games developers, and we try to create the best we can irrespective of platform. We hope you end up agreeing with our design decisions when you see the game for yourself.

gloss
Aug 2, 2007, 01:20 PM
I have to admit, the weather really does look stunning. I'd love to see more games with realtime evolving weather.

zero2dash
Aug 2, 2007, 01:31 PM
Yeah, I still can't believe how realistic the rain looks, not only falling, but on the ground, beads on the cars, etc. Phenominal work.

Coded-Dude
Aug 2, 2007, 02:45 PM
Debunked! :D

http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257



rofl......how do you debunk statements that you made? :eek: :p

e˛Studios
Aug 2, 2007, 02:51 PM
Yeah, I still can't believe how realistic the rain looks, not only falling, but on the ground, beads on the cars, etc. Phenominal work.

Have you seen F1 CE in action? There is not a single game that even comes close to producing realistic rain than that game. IIRC they are using a SPE to manage the physics for just the rain.

Ed

gloss
Aug 2, 2007, 03:04 PM
Have you seen F1 CE in action? There is not a single game that even comes close to producing realistic rain than that game. IIRC they are using a SPE to manage the physics for just the rain.

Ed

F1 CE (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/16955.html)

PGR4 (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/19327.html)

I kind of wish they'd shown the rain in F1 from outside the player view. It's hard to level a direct comparison otherwise.

steamboat26
Aug 2, 2007, 03:34 PM
I'd say it's fairly close, F1 CE never shows you the rain falling on the cars. All it has is the trail of vapor from the cars running over the rain, and the water "falling" on your screen.
For PGR4 the rain looks good dropping on the environment and cars, but the rain itself doesn't look amazing. Don't ask me how rain is supposed to look... :D

e˛Studios
Aug 2, 2007, 03:43 PM
I'd say it's fairly close, F1 CE never shows you the rain falling on the cars. All it has is the trail of vapor from the cars running over the rain, and the water "falling" on your screen.
For PGR4 the rain looks good dropping on the environment and cars, but the rain itself doesn't look amazing. Don't ask me how rain is supposed to look... :D

F1 CE shows rain falling, it also shows it flying at you at high speeds. I own the game and have played through 1 full season and many races ;)

There isn't a game that beats the rain/water physics that are in F1 CE, this game might come close (albeit I think its nothing like it) but it still falls short.

The weather and physics in F1 are amazing to say the least.

Ed

bobber205
Aug 2, 2007, 05:04 PM
I dont' care about all this stuff. I just had to comment and say. Whoa. Those are some nice graphics.

sikkinixx
Aug 2, 2007, 07:06 PM
Vodafone in Quebec huh? Judging from the F1 GP I went to I would say more like Bud and Bell ;) And those flags look like ass... But I nit-pick too much, the cars look crazy good and PGR is a lot more fun than Forza so I'm a happy camper.