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CanadaRAM
Aug 7, 2007, 01:21 PM
Tim: "We're refreshing the Mac mini today."

? :eek::confused:



anansei
Aug 7, 2007, 01:21 PM
Very nice to hear indeed!

serpico
Aug 7, 2007, 01:22 PM
? :eek::confused:
Finally some good news! Bring up the store!

AutumnSkyline
Aug 7, 2007, 01:22 PM
Apple has decided to breathe life back into the mini!!! YAY!!!
"Didn't mention Mac mini today, how is it doing?"

Tim: "We're refreshing the Mac mini today.

xtine
Aug 7, 2007, 01:23 PM
... Tim Cook has just answered a question about the mini ...
" We're refreshing the mac mini today"

merman637
Aug 7, 2007, 01:23 PM
? :eek::confused:

AWESOME! Hopefully a current processor, a larger HD and Video Options...

rogersmj
Aug 7, 2007, 01:23 PM
Just saw that too in the Q&A!

"Tim: "We're refreshing the Mac mini today.""

Nice to see they're not going to can it.

kwood
Aug 7, 2007, 01:24 PM
I'm Ecstatic. Long live the mini.

shu82
Aug 7, 2007, 01:25 PM
Perhaps we get our 499 mac back! At least some core 2 duo!

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 01:25 PM
... Tim Cook has just answered a question about the mini ...
" We're refreshing the mac mini today"I noticed that. I'll wait for the store and product pages to update.

mwxiao
Aug 7, 2007, 01:28 PM
"Didn't mention Mac mini today, how is it doing?"

Tim: "We're refreshing the Mac mini today."

parafish13
Aug 7, 2007, 01:31 PM
Good to hear. Is there a standard "down time" before the online Apple Store comes up again?

miloblithe
Aug 7, 2007, 01:31 PM
Can't wait to see the specs. I'd love to have a low-price option.

SilentPanda
Aug 7, 2007, 01:33 PM
Good to hear. Is there a standard "down time" before the online Apple Store comes up again?

Steve and Phil have to be off the stage. Then they are both escorted by Secret Service members to their respective helicopters where they insert and turn their keys in sync to unveil the new store.apple.com site.

tuc
Aug 7, 2007, 01:34 PM
Am curious to see if the updated Minis have Santa Rosa, or if they are more like the current (non-pro) MacBooks.

Tumeg101
Aug 7, 2007, 01:35 PM
This probably just means they are currently working on refreshing the mac mini, or maybe he said it wrong??

And I am guessing it will take 30-60+ minutes for the site to be back up

Maxwell Smart
Aug 7, 2007, 01:37 PM
Steve and Phil have to be off the stage. Then they are both escorted by Secret Service members to their respective helicopters where they insert and turn their keys in sync to unveil the new store.apple.com site.

I must say, that is the funniest comment I've heard in a while, well done sir ;)

kwood
Aug 7, 2007, 01:38 PM
I doubt they will be Santa Rosa. I think it will be C2D like the previous generation MacBooks (as in 1.83GHz or 2.0GHz).

Willis
Aug 7, 2007, 01:39 PM
Mac mini with probs a speed bump and bigger HDD and maybe more ram

kwood
Aug 7, 2007, 01:42 PM
The Store is up...but the Mac mini page does not exist yet...

da sola setter
Aug 7, 2007, 01:44 PM
1.83GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
1GB memory
80GB hard drive1
combo drive

$599


2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
1GB memory
120GB hard drive
superdrive

$799

Dr. P
Aug 7, 2007, 01:44 PM
from $599. Gotta be SR

Fabio_gsilva
Aug 7, 2007, 01:45 PM
Don't forget about the new minis! They're due today!

I want a new Mini, to replace my Rev. A. I just love the Mini! It is small and beautiful, and everybody who sees it don't believe that the entire CPU is just that!!!

Uhu!

Love you APLLE!!
:apple:

shu82
Aug 7, 2007, 01:47 PM
Still have GMA 950:mad:

tuc
Aug 7, 2007, 01:48 PM
Gotta be SR

just a hunch?

meagain
Aug 7, 2007, 01:48 PM
da sola - where did you get that info from?

WannaGoMac
Aug 7, 2007, 01:48 PM
Still have GMA 950:mad:

Geesh, apple has such balls to charge to much for old hardware.

$799 for that lousy hardware config!?

Tara Davis
Aug 7, 2007, 01:49 PM
Don't forget about the new minis! They're due today!

I want a new Mini, to replace my Rev. A. I just love the Mini! It is small and beautiful, and everybody who sees it don't believe that the entire CPU is just that!!!

Uhu!

Love you APLLE!!
:apple:

Wow, the store is totally ganked. I bet the fact that they said, "oh yeah, there's a new mini today, too" might have something to do with so many people rushing to the store to ogle specs.

Something tells me Apple is in for a big week with both the iMac and the mini.

gsnixon
Aug 7, 2007, 01:50 PM
store back down again?
anyone catch the max RAM specs? That will tell if its SR.

shu82
Aug 7, 2007, 01:50 PM
No they aren't SR Mini's. These are old macbook parts. The mini is always old macbook(or ibook before it) parts.

kwood
Aug 7, 2007, 01:50 PM
just a hunch?

I seriously doubt it will be SR. It seems like they keep the Mac mini and the MacBook on a similar level.

xUKHCx
Aug 7, 2007, 01:53 PM
can't get in at the moment to see the specs but she is alive and well

Gordy
Aug 7, 2007, 01:53 PM
New specs are better than a kick in the teeth.

rafatmit
Aug 7, 2007, 01:53 PM
I was able briefly to get into the store before they went down again, and I saw the same specs. 1.83/2.0 GHz C2D, $599/700.

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 01:54 PM
It looks like the store is up but it's still in update chaos. My education stores are still completely down.

kwood
Aug 7, 2007, 01:54 PM
can't get in at the moment to see the specs but she is alive and well

I was very happy to see that its not discontinued.

shu82
Aug 7, 2007, 01:55 PM
store went down again. No ram specs, but these are definitely not santa rosa chips! The ram was increased, the early C2D were put in.

Hard drives are the same.
Graphics processor is the same.
They still haven't dropped the combo drive!

soLoredd
Aug 7, 2007, 01:55 PM
Geesh, apple has such balls to charge to much for old hardware.

$799 for that lousy hardware config!?

Yeah, I don't get that either. Something tells me Apple is not acquainted with the word "momentum". With all of the news the iPhone generates lately, plus the inevitable iPod update, you would think Apple would use this opportunity to bring in even more additional customers by offering something 'affordable'. Upgrading the CPU to C2D is fine but then you go and raise the price? And with the iMac update today, we no longer have an option for any type of 'complete' Mac experience that is under $1000.

da sola setter
Aug 7, 2007, 01:59 PM
da sola - where did you get that info from?

apple store

tuc
Aug 7, 2007, 01:59 PM
wired:
http://images.apple.com/keyboard/images/index_hero_wired20070807.png

bluetooth:
http://images.apple.com/keyboard/images/index_hero_wireless20070807.png

http://www.apple.com/keyboard/

Bluetooth one lacks numeric keypad. Wired one has "two USB 2.0 ports provide high-speed connectivity for your iPod, Mighty Mouse, digital camera, and other USB-based electronic devices."

mrgreen4242
Aug 7, 2007, 02:03 PM
Well, if the new mini has an x3000 (sounds doubtful based on some of your reports, but the store is still in flux - I can't even load it yet) then that might be my next Mac. Otherwise, it's going to be a tough call between a low end new iMac w/ EDU pricing (should be ~$999-1099 I expect), or an old 20" iMac refurb, depending how cheap they get.

If the mini upgrade is complete bunk, and the new low end iMac specs look OK and comes in a $999 w/ EDU pricing, it'll be tough to pass that up unless the old 20" get REALLY cheap refurb.

DavidLeblond
Aug 7, 2007, 02:06 PM
why use the store?

http://www.apple.com/macmini/

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 02:07 PM
Well, if the new mini has an x3000 (sounds doubtful based on some of your reports, but the store is still in flux - I can't even load it yet) then that might be my next Mac. Otherwise, it's going to be a tough call between a low end new iMac w/ EDU pricing (should be ~$999-1099 I expect), or an old 20" iMac refurb, depending how cheap they get.

If the mini upgrade is complete bunk, and the new low end iMac specs look OK and comes in a $999 w/ EDU pricing, it'll be tough to pass that up unless the old 20" get REALLY cheap refurb.That'd be X3100.

why use the store?

http://www.apple.com/macmini/Finally an update.

jeffzoom91
Aug 7, 2007, 02:08 PM
the store isn't up, but you can still oogle at this: http://www.apple.com/macmini/

It's been updated, and yes, it's the old macbook processors.

That's fine, because the mac mini is a great machine. My parents gave one to my grandmother. She hasn't mucked anything up yet, and it's just as snappy as day one. Mail also stopped her from opening a virus in two of her emails. They prolly wouldn't have had any effect anyways. It was most likely a windoze virus.

tuc
Aug 7, 2007, 02:09 PM
Processor and memory


1.83GHz or 2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor
2MB or 4MB on-chip L2 cache
667MHz frontside bus
1GB of 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM (PC2-5300) on two SO-DIMMs; supports up to 2GB


Graphics and video support


Intel GMA 950 graphics processor with 64MB of DDR2 SDRAM shared with main memory

Tallest Skil
Aug 7, 2007, 02:09 PM
Note the new number-padless keyboard on the Mac Mini Design page. That's it. Just note it.:D

Edit: That's the new WIRELESS keyboard. What the tanj is up?

slicedbread
Aug 7, 2007, 02:10 PM
from the macmini page just now.

Upgraded to C2D, 1GB ram. No upgraded graphics.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6803/picture1ow4.png (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-08-07

slicedbread
Aug 7, 2007, 02:12 PM
Note the new number-padless keyboard on the Mac Mini Design page. That's it. Just note it.:D

Edit: That's the new WIRELESS keyboard. What the tanj is up?

thats the new bluetooth wireless keyboard. check the http://www.apple.com/keyboard/ pages.

gsnixon
Aug 7, 2007, 02:13 PM
So it looks like they just dropped a T5600/T7200 into the case, and left everything else untouched. Color me unimpressed. I put a T7600 in my mini nearly a year ago!

Oh yeah, and wireless upgrade.
But everything they did can be done aftermarket.

ironring2006
Aug 7, 2007, 02:13 PM
Side by side of old/new:

cheaper:
CD 1.66GHz --> C2D 1.83GHz
512MB RAM --> 1GB RAM
60 GB HD --> 80GB HD
Combo Drive --> Combo Drive

better:
CD 1.83GHz --> C2D 2.0GHz
512MB RAM --> 1GB RAM
80 GB HD --> 120GB HD
Superdrive --> Superdrive

No mention of whether wireless means 802.11n draft, but I would assume so.

Edit: I see it is only 802.11g. That kind of blows. I thought it would make sense to put the new wireless chips in since they've been in the others for almost a year now. Pity that they still gotta get rid of that old stock.

Actually, I wonder if some of them will have the "phantom" n chips, that just need the updater?

Aegelward
Aug 7, 2007, 02:13 PM
is it me, or have they neglected to update to wireless-n?

Tallest Skil
Aug 7, 2007, 02:14 PM
Caught that. Again, what the tanj is up? Why the numpad drop?

Multimedia
Aug 7, 2007, 02:14 PM
Store back down now. Must be for Santa Rosa Mac Mini update. :)

Live the digital life in stylish simplicity — up to 39% faster.1 Just 6.5 inches square and 2 inches small, Mac mini lets you have more fun with your music, photos, and movies, more quickly and more easily. Enjoy them up close or far away with the included Apple Remote. The most affordable way to Intel Core 2 Duo, iLife ’08, and Front Row starts at $599.

Check out the Mac Mini Update!Max 4GB Santa Rosa?

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 02:15 PM
Store back down now. Must be for Santa Rosa Mac Mini update. :)They're still Napa.

Evangelion
Aug 7, 2007, 02:15 PM
Store back down now. Must be for Santa Rosa Mac Mini update. :)

It's not Santa Rosa.

CanadaRAM
Aug 7, 2007, 02:18 PM
It's not Santa Rosa.

Confirmed, the Mini is still officially limited to 2 Gb RAM.. Which means that 3 Gb ( 1 Gb + 2 Gb) might work a la MacBook, but it has to be tested.

WannaGoMac
Aug 7, 2007, 02:18 PM
I am slowly losing my enthusiasm for Apple Macs....

Apple's inability to construct a computer that is priced well is sad.


Mac Mini is a great unit, but for $799 is should have Santa Rosa and x3000 graphics. Cmon.

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 02:19 PM
Looks like I'm jumping ship on Apple as well. Time to look at what I can build with XP on it. :(

KindredMAC
Aug 7, 2007, 02:22 PM
I was all cool and digging everything until I finally muddled my way to the accessories section of the lagged Apple.com. When I saw the wireless keyboard, my initial thought was that the image hadn't finished loading yet because of the traffic.... until I realized there were arrows on that keyboard.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.............

I just got my BT keyboard for Christmas last year and was totally ready to plunk down what ever for the new one..... until I saw that it is the exact same as a laptop keyboard. WTF APPLE????? Why couldn't you have added the keypad right next to the compact keys on the BT version? I could get used to using FN UP AND DOWN for PG UP and PG DOWN, but taking away the key pad also???

No BT keyboard for me thank you very much!

TaterSalad
Aug 7, 2007, 02:24 PM
I just want to know if they are going to be in retail stores today. I called my local store and they didn't know anything. Apparently, consumers are higher up on the new product chain of command than the store employees.

tuc
Aug 7, 2007, 02:25 PM
Why the numpad drop?

They dropped the number pad on the new bluetooth (wireless) keyboard, but the new USB (wired) keyboard still has it.

http://images.apple.com/keyboard/images/gallery/wired_1_20070807.jpg

Also, keep in mind that the Mini doesn't actually come with a keyboard.

gsnixon
Aug 7, 2007, 02:25 PM
I still think the mac mini is a damn cool platform. You can still do a lot with it. To illustrate (and gloat a bit), I'm put my specs in my sig.

Pistol
Aug 7, 2007, 02:26 PM
Here's what the specs show for the mini:

(Attached .pdf)

Pistol

mrgreen4242
Aug 7, 2007, 02:34 PM
Thanks for the updates guys. I checked the mini page awhile back and it wasn't updated... oh well, pretty lame update, if you ask me. An x3000 (or x3100) along with all of this would have been enough to keep me interest, but as it is unless this update pushes prices for the old models WAY down (which is unlikely, since there's not a HUGE difference) I'll probably suck it up and get an iMac, despite my general distaste for all in ones.

It'll be good, since my wife can get my old display which is a really nice Dell LCD, but I really wasn't keen on an AIO. :( I'm ready to go Intel, though, and they're not giving us a whole lot of good options. I just need to save up and buy a Mac Pro. :p

MacRumors
Aug 7, 2007, 02:45 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple quietly updated the Mac Mini today. Apple did not mention the update in any of its press releases today, and only acknowledged the update when asked during its question and answer session (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/08/07/notes-of-interest-from-q-a/).

The update brings Apple's line to all Core 2 Duo processors, with a 1.83 GHz model and a 2.0 GHz model starting at $599. The new models will also feature Apple's newly released iLife '08 software. Other details (http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html) are as follows:

- 1 GB RAM standard (up from 512 MB on entry model)
- 80 or 120 GB Hard Drives (up from 60/80 GB)
- Integrated GMA 950 graphics
- Gigabit Ethernet, 802.11g wireless + bluetooth 2.0 builtin

AppleInsider has said that the Mac Mini is heading towards discontinuance (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/05/24/mac-mini-to-be-discontinued/).

Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/08/07/apple-quietly-updates-mac-minis/)

Le Big Mac
Aug 7, 2007, 02:46 PM
Yea! More life for the mini . . .

Multimedia
Aug 7, 2007, 02:46 PM
That is so lame not to make it Santa Rosa with Dual Link Output and x3000 graphics. Just stupid. :rolleyes:

Cloudane
Aug 7, 2007, 02:47 PM
So I'm strongly interested :D

The iMac is undoubtedly a better option, probably by far, but I don't really have room for one in my tiny bedroom, which is where the Mini would come in very useful. Right now I'm using a Powerbook and would continue to use it when out and about.

The powerbook is an old 12" G4, 1.33GHz, 768MB, upgraded to a 7200RPM WDC hard drive. It crawls with more than a couple of apps open, really painful, the beachball is seen almost as frequently as the hourglass of the Windows 95 days.

Question is, now that we're on Intel Core 2 Duos and such, would it be much better? Or will I still be wishing I'd tried to make room (and save a little extra) for an iMac?

Multimedia
Aug 7, 2007, 02:51 PM
So I'm strongly interested :D

The iMac is undoubtedly a better option, probably by far, but I don't really have room for one in my tiny bedroom, which is where the Mini would come in very useful. Right now I'm using a Powerbook and would continue to use it when out and about.

The powerbook is an old 12" G4, 1.33GHz, 768MB, upgraded to a 7200RPM WDC hard drive. It crawls with more than a couple of apps open, really painful, the beachball is seen almost as frequently as the hourglass of the Windows 95 days.

Question is, now that we're on Intel Core 2 Duos and such, would it be much better? Or will I still be wishing I'd tried to make room (and save a little extra) for an iMac?I think you'd be much better off buying a current 2GHz MacBook refurbished for $999. You still get iLife '08 when you buy refurbished folks.

brepublican
Aug 7, 2007, 02:52 PM
Very measly update IMO. I mean, c'mon, we're still dealing with 1.83 GHz C2D's and 80GB HDD?? Sure its the low end Mac, but gotta give us something to cheers about Apple.

But yeah, I guess its better than nothing :(

SkyBell
Aug 7, 2007, 02:54 PM
Haha, the naysayers who thought the mini was gonna be discontinued are sitting quietly in corners. :D

I love this. Apple updated them!

On the downside, my 1.83 GHz model is now outdated. :( ;)

aafuss1
Aug 7, 2007, 02:55 PM
1.83GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
1GB memory
80GB hard drive1
combo drive

$599


2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
1GB memory
120GB hard drive
superdrive

$799

Like the MacBook-faster, but no SR

brepublican
Aug 7, 2007, 02:56 PM
is it me, or have they neglected to update to wireless-n?

And you're right. They're still shipping em with 802.11g. While you're at it, why not just put a G3 in there Apple huh?? :mad:

soLoredd
Aug 7, 2007, 02:57 PM
Haha, the naysayers who thought the mini was gonna be discontinued are sitting quietly in corners. :D

I love this. Apple updated them!

On the downside, my 1.83 GHz model is now outdated. :( ;)

It may not be discontinued but it's certainly on it's way out. I guess Apple just isn't interested in a sub-$1,000 Mac anymore. Greedy bastards.

gkarris
Aug 7, 2007, 02:58 PM
We should all be happy that Apple kept this line of computers.

For all you sitting on the fence - the previous models should go for cheaper now...

mrgreen4242
Aug 7, 2007, 03:01 PM
I think you'd be much better off buying a current 2GHz MacBook refurbished for $999. You still get iLife '08 when you buy refurbished folks.

Er... I don't think that's always the case. Maybe sometimes you do, but refurb machines are ALWAYS advertised with "software that original shipped" on the machine... I've bought refurb hardware before and it had out of date software on it (got 10.3 on a machine after 10.4 was out).

Also, am I the only one who is still getting the "we'll be back soon" message for the store?

brepublican
Aug 7, 2007, 03:02 PM
We should all be happy that Apple kept this line of computers.

For all you sitting on the fence - the previous models should go for cheaper now...

Yeah... and remind me who would wanna buy a Core Duo box with 60GB again? :rolleyes:

EDIT: Not to mention that prehistoric combo drive...

Wolfpup
Aug 7, 2007, 03:03 PM
I'm surprised by all the negative comments. When the Macbook didn't even get the new chipset, was anyone seriously thinking the Mac Mini would?

I'm just thrilled they kept the Mini around, and gave it a nifty update. I mean a 1.83GHz Core 2 is a BIG upgrade from a 1.66GHz Core 1, and it's still a very solid entry level machine for someone just wanting to browse the web and do office documents (or get their feet wet on OS X).

They NEED this entry level machine, so it's wonderful they've kept it.

More than a chipset bump though, I think it needs a user replaceable drive and RAM-but then ALL their systems should have that.

bananas
Aug 7, 2007, 03:04 PM
Hmm. seems like my next Mac might be another Mac Mini.

WannaGoMac
Aug 7, 2007, 03:04 PM
Haha, the naysayers who thought the mini was gonna be discontinued are sitting quietly in corners. :D

I love this. Apple updated them!

On the downside, my 1.83 GHz model is now outdated. :( ;)


Don't worry, the crap update to the Mini is outdated already too...

shu82
Aug 7, 2007, 03:05 PM
Yeah... and remind me who would wanna buy a Core Duo box with 60GB again? :rolleyes:

Probably the guy on ebay who will pay over 500 for mine. They go for that much. The resale on mini's is great. 3 year old G4s are doing over 400.

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 03:05 PM
More than a chipset bump though, I think it needs a user replaceable drive and RAM-but then ALL their systems should have that.The Mac mini is easily serviceable as long as you have this (http://www.allwaytools.com/Level1.asp?Material_ID=W1-1/2F).

poundsmack
Aug 7, 2007, 03:06 PM
no GMA 3100, lame

Royale w/cheese
Aug 7, 2007, 03:06 PM
Er... I don't think that's always the case. Maybe sometimes you do, but refurb machines are ALWAYS advertised with "software that original shipped" on the machine... I've bought refurb hardware before and it had out of date software on it (got 10.3 on a machine after 10.4 was out).

Also, am I the only one who is still getting the "we'll be back soon" message for the store?

I remember that too, I got iLife '05 on an powerbook refurb when an intel mini I had bought a month earlier had '06. Hopefully they will not do the same, just check the specs, folks.

tom5304
Aug 7, 2007, 03:07 PM
Yeah... and remind me who would wanna buy a Core Duo box with 60GB again? :rolleyes:

I might buy one. Today's new offerings were so lame and uninspiring that if the price is right (like 20% reduction), I'd go for the old version of the Mini or the white plastic iMac.

I can pick up a perfectly functional H-P PC for $300, so the price reductions in the refurbished area will have to be substantial for me to pay up for OSX.

macenforcer
Aug 7, 2007, 03:08 PM
I still think the mac mini is a damn cool platform. You can still do a lot with it. To illustrate (and gloat a bit), I'm put my specs in my sig.

3.3GB usable ram. ARE YOU SURE. Cuz if you are I am buying that 2gb stick now. OWC said you can't.

Royale w/cheese
Aug 7, 2007, 03:08 PM
The Mac mini is easily serviceable as long as you have this (http://www.allwaytools.com/Level1.asp?Material_ID=W1-1/2F).

A comic book rendition of a putty knife? :rolleyes: I think a real one would work even better! :D

Multimedia
Aug 7, 2007, 03:10 PM
Er... I don't think that's always the case. Maybe sometimes you do, but refurb machines are ALWAYS advertised with "software that original shipped" on the machine... I've bought refurb hardware before and it had out of date software on it (got 10.3 on a machine after 10.4 was out).

Also, am I the only one who is still getting the "we'll be back soon" message for the store?They toss in the current system DVD and the iLife '08 Install DVD. If it doesn't arrive in your box you simply phone Applecare and they send them right out free of charge. No problem. You neglected to phone right away and demand satisfaction in a polite way.

Store still down - education and/or refurb paths.

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 03:10 PM
A comic book rendition of a putty knife? :rolleyes: I think a real one would work even better! :DWell I do have the real one. I was just showing you my weapon of choice to open minis. :D

Osarkon
Aug 7, 2007, 03:10 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the Mac Mini is still extremely overpriced for the spec?

galstaph
Aug 7, 2007, 03:10 PM
just a wee bit of a bump then, too bad:(
whaaat!:eek: 2gb max ram still???? I thought we were past this by now... comeon at least 3gb please....:rolleyes:

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 03:11 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the Mac Mini is still extremely overpriced for the price?You're not alone.

Royale w/cheese
Aug 7, 2007, 03:14 PM
$429 1.66 mini refurbs, I wonder how much a core solo would be if they ever had one in there again?

brepublican
Aug 7, 2007, 03:16 PM
Probably the guy on ebay who will pay over 500 for mine. They go for that much. The resale on mini's is great. 3 year old G4s are doing over 400.

I think its safe to say that that fellow prolly doesnt know what the hell he's doing. I mean, how can you pony up $500 plus for a Core Duo + 60GB, when you can get a C2D, 80GB for $599 from Apple direct? And that's before edu discount and what not (prolly cheaper on Amazon too)

Count yourself lucky

I might buy one. Today's new offerings were so lame and uninspiring that if the price is right (like 20% reduction), I'd go for the old version of the Mini or the white plastic iMac.

Def. Anyone who is wise will do well to pick up an old iMac at this point, cos todays updates were more cosmetic than anything. I'm not so sure about the old Mac mini though...

tom5304
Aug 7, 2007, 03:17 PM
Finally got onto the refurbished area of the Apple store, and yesterday's versions of the Mini and the iMac are going for 30-40% off from their previous prices. I'm going to bite at that price.

Since Apple has clearly shown that they are no committed to gamers, I'll just pick up an old Mini or iMac that can do the other two things I use a computer for: internet and word processing. I guess two out of three is okay. Thanks, Apple for the "okay" experience.

ebow
Aug 7, 2007, 03:17 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the Mac Mini is still extremely overpriced for the price?

Not the only one at all... With those specs the starting price should absolutely be $499 again. And certainly not $799 for the better model. You used to be able to get a whole iMac for only $100 more, including display and keyboard/mouse (back in the G3 days at least, perhaps more recently as well). :rolleyes:

WannaGoMac
Aug 7, 2007, 03:18 PM
I really want to buy a mac. Shame Apple won't get off it's high-horse on pricing high for old equipment. If the Mac Mini had been given Santa Rosa x3100 video, it would have been a great update and I would have purchased my first Mac.

Even the refurb at 479 seems pricey for a Core 1 Duo to me...

kwood
Aug 7, 2007, 03:19 PM
It may not be discontinued but it's certainly on it's way out. I guess Apple just isn't interested in a sub-$1,000 Mac anymore. Greedy bastards.

Somebody is always upset whenever Apple releases a new product.

NtotheIzoo
Aug 7, 2007, 03:19 PM
I'm surprised by all the negative comments. When the Macbook didn't even get the new chipset, was anyone seriously thinking the Mac Mini would?

I totally agree here...no way Apple would give Mini SR before MacBook.

Royale w/cheese
Aug 7, 2007, 03:20 PM
...new low end iMac specs look OK and comes in a $999 w/ EDU pricing, it'll be tough to pass that up unless the old 20" get REALLY cheap refurb.

Sorry, $1149. Your post actually made me consider getting an iMac for the first time in many years, but is it me, or is apple starting to cut the edu discount quite a bit?

WannaGoMac
Aug 7, 2007, 03:21 PM
I totally agree here...no way Apple would give Mini SR before MacBook.

Yes, because how else can they continue to sell over-priced hardware.

Sorry, I don't mean to be bitter because i am. I really wanted to finally switch to Mac, but for these prices I can't justify a machine that isn't even near current....

qtx43
Aug 7, 2007, 03:21 PM
Just doing a quickie comparison with Dells, not trying too hard, but trying to get something roughly comparable...

$559
Dell Inspiron 530s

Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4400 (2MB L2 Cache,2.00GHz,800 FSB)
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium
No Monitor
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs
160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
16X DVD+/-RW Drive
Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3100
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse
13 in 1 Media Card Reader
Internal PCI 802.11g Wireless Network Card
OPTIONAL PORTS IEEE 1394a Adapter

Apple's offering suffers in comparison in pretty much every respect, except for form factor and operating system. They pretty much just dropped in a newer processor and a slightly larger HD. That's not enough. Since they're all built out of commodity parts, I really doubt the reliability will be that much different. If I used their productivity apps, that might be something too, but I don't. I can easily stick Linux on a 2nd partition or HD. Not that I've completely made up my mind, but this is a pretty pathetic update to the mini.

I think Apple doesn't really want this market, but they're willing to put out a substandard product at good margins if they don't have to try too hard. It's too bad, I think they'll still increase market share, but not like they could have done.

iSee
Aug 7, 2007, 03:24 PM
Eat CROW all you who said it was dead! :D:D:D

And complaining about the specs is silly. We all know it's not going to surpass the MacBook in any way. So how were they going to put in SR and a GPU?

Jowl
Aug 7, 2007, 03:25 PM
THe Mini is a close to perfect for what I want it to do - be a Media computer in my lounge.

Together with an EyeTV product, it's just what I need. I was going to get one regardless (perhaps wait for Leopard) - so It now saves me £80 on the spec I was going to buy....and I get faster/64-bit CPU and more HDD space.

G5power
Aug 7, 2007, 03:25 PM
The refurb prices on the just replaced mini's looks pretty decent:

Refurbished Mac mini, 1.66GHz Intel Core Duo
512MB memory
60GB hard drive
Combo drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
Intel GMA 950 graphics processor with 64MB of DDR2 memory

Original price: $599.00
Your price: $429.00



Refurbished Mac mini, 1.83GHz Intel Core Duo
512MB memory
80GB hard drive
SuperDrive (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Intel GMA 950 graphics processor with 64MB of DDR2 memory

Original price: $799.00
Your price: $479.00

jellomizer
Aug 7, 2007, 03:27 PM
wired:
http://images.apple.com/keyboard/images/index_hero_wired20070807.png

bluetooth:
http://images.apple.com/keyboard/images/index_hero_wireless20070807.png

http://www.apple.com/keyboard/

Bluetooth one lacks numeric keypad. Wired one has "two USB 2.0 ports provide high-speed connectivity for your iPod, Mighty Mouse, digital camera, and other USB-based electronic devices."

Already purchased... I have been looking for a USB Keyboard with as many Keys as an Old DEC VT Keyboard (which I kinda need for work) ... This one fits the bill and it is thin enough to put in my bag for may MacBook Pro (17" so the bag should be wide enough)
To Bad the wireless didn't have the extended keys... Ohwell

iSee
Aug 7, 2007, 03:27 PM
Yes, because how else can they continue to sell over-priced hardware.

Sorry, I don't mean to be bitter because i am. I really wanted to finally switch to Mac, but for these prices I can't justify a machine that isn't even near current....

Ummm... If you want some more power, why don't you check out the iMac?
I think they might be updating that soon, too... ;)

davidmyers
Aug 7, 2007, 03:27 PM
I'm sort of glad they stuck with it, given there is not an imac below 1000$.
However, I do think a convergence is in the works with the mini and atv,
ripe for some kind of all-in-one box at some point in 2008. I'm very
disappointed the price was not slashed further though, on the mini. I think
that would have made more of a statement and commitment to the lower
end users.

tom5304
Aug 7, 2007, 03:28 PM
Sorry for the minor threadjack, but if I'm choosing between a refurb Mini and a refurb iMac, is the Mini substantially more quiet than the iMac? Any experienced opinions appreciated. The refurb iMac looks awfully good, but the refurb Mini is half the price of the iMac...

Tara Davis
Aug 7, 2007, 03:28 PM
Everybody whining about specs or comparing the mini to the "value" of other computers (Mac or otherwise) are completely missing the point.

The mini is not really a desktop machine. Never was.

It was conceived as a "PC top" machine, meaning that Windows devs who needed to do a few minutes a day of Mac support could plop one on top of the case of their PC.

It's an iBook/MacBook notebook motherboard in a tiny case with no monitor, keyboard, or mouse. In addition to it's intended use, people have found a lot of other great uses for it which no other machine does quite as well.

1. Hook it up to an HDTV or projector, and it makes an awesome media player (which also happens to let you browse the web, read e-mail, play the occasional light-weight game, etc.)

2. Hook it up to a USB sound module, launch & control Garage Band via remote desktop, and it becomes a great rack-mounted guitar/vocal signal processor that can sit anywhere in the room/concert hall and be controlled from anywhere else via laptop (or even with limited "blind" control usings BT devices).

3. Mount it in the car.

4. Headless server in your closet (or hell.. your kitchen cupboard).

etc.

They are handy gadgets, but they are not, and never were, the best available solution for OS X desktop computing. If that's what you want, buy an iMac and be happy.

I, for one, love the little buggers. I'm planning on buying two of them next October when 10.5 comes out. Hopefully they will have upgraded the airport cards to 802.11n by then.

sundancemc
Aug 7, 2007, 03:30 PM
I was super pleased to see the CPU upgrade, but I assumed that wireless "n" would come with it. After all, that is the easy-to-remember threshhold for "g" vs. "n".

Now, the Mini will be the only Core 2 without wireless "n". That seems odd to me, especially considering its obvious role as a HTPC streaming content to Apple TV.

With so many Mini's as HTPC's, it seems strange that you need a MacBook to stream hi-res content to Apple TV.

Odd.

macjonny1
Aug 7, 2007, 03:35 PM
I was super pleased to see the CPU upgrade, but I assumed that wireless "n" would come with it. After all, that is the easy-to-remember threshhold for "g" vs. "n".

Now, the Mini will be the only Core 2 without wireless "n". That seems odd to me, especially considering its obvious role as a HTPC streaming content to Apple TV.

With so many Mini's as HTPC's, it seems strange that you need a MacBook to stream hi-res content to Apple TV.

Odd.

I too think it is pretty sad that they didn't update the wireless. I have an all wireless 'n' network and don't want to put a 'g' device on it. Also, they need to update the airport express...how hard can it be to make the transition seamless across all of the devices....

Kosh66
Aug 7, 2007, 03:36 PM
Everybody whining about specs or comparing the mini to the "value" of other computers (Mac or otherwise) are completely missing the point.

The mini is not really a desktop machine. Never was.

It was conceived as a "PC top" machine, meaning that Windows devs who needed to do a few minutes a day of Mac support could plop one on top of the case of their PC.

It's an iBook/MacBook notebook motherboard in a tiny case with no monitor, keyboard, or mouse. In addition to it's intended use, people have found a lot of other great uses for it which no other machine does quite as well.

1. Hook it up to an HDTV or projector, and it makes an awesome media player (which also happens to let you browse the web, read e-mail, play the occasional light-weight game, etc.)

2. Hook it up to a USB sound module, launch & control Garage Band via remote desktop, and it becomes a great rack-mounted guitar/vocal signal processor that can sit anywhere in the room/concert hall and be controlled from anywhere else via laptop (or even with limited "blind" control usings BT devices).

3. Mount it in the car.

4. Headless server in your closet (or hell.. your kitchen cupboard).

etc.

They are handy gadgets, but they are not, and never were, the best available solution for OS X desktop computing. If that's what you want, buy an iMac and be happy.

I, for one, love the little buggers. I'm planning on buying two of them next October when 10.5 comes out. Hopefully they will have upgraded the airport cards to 802.11n by then.

:D Excellent points. This little computer is a powerful beast for a media center, a server, or general computer usage (surfing the web, emails, office apps). It would even be a good office computer.

Chisholm
Aug 7, 2007, 03:36 PM
Just doing a quickie comparison with Dells, not trying too hard, but trying to get something roughly comparable...

$559
Dell Inspiron 530s

Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4400 (2MB L2 Cache,2.00GHz,800 FSB)
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium
No Monitor
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs
160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
16X DVD+/-RW Drive
Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3100
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse
13 in 1 Media Card Reader
Internal PCI 802.11g Wireless Network Card
OPTIONAL PORTS IEEE 1394a Adapter

Apple's offering suffers in comparison in pretty much every respect, except for form factor and operating system. They pretty much just dropped in a newer processor and a slightly larger HD. That's not enough. Since they're all built out of commodity parts, I really doubt the reliability will be that much different. If I used their productivity apps, that might be something too, but I don't. I can easily stick Linux on a 2nd partition or HD. Not that I've completely made up my mind, but this is a pretty pathetic update to the mini.

I think Apple doesn't really want this market, but they're willing to put out a substandard product at good margins if they don't have to try too hard. It's too bad, I think they'll still increase market share, but not like they could have done.

Yeah, you're comparing Apples to Dells. There is something called quality control that Dell is lacking. The mini is a targeted product. Maybe some of these folks complaining aren't the target audience for this particular product.

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 03:38 PM
Yeah, you're comparing Apples to Dells. There is something called quality control that Dell is lacking. The mini is a targeted product. Maybe some of these folks complaining aren't the target audience for this particular product.I've never had any more quality control issues with Dell then with Apple in my department.

Everybody whining about specs or comparing the mini to the "value" of other computers (Mac or otherwise) are completely missing the point.

The mini is not really a desktop machine. Never was.

It was conceived as a "PC top" machine, meaning that Windows devs who needed to do a few minutes a day of Mac support could plop one on top of the case of their PC.

It's an iBook/MacBook notebook motherboard in a tiny case with no monitor, keyboard, or mouse. In addition to it's intended use, people have found a lot of other great uses for it which no other machine does quite as well.

1. Hook it up to an HDTV or projector, and it makes an awesome media player (which also happens to let you browse the web, read e-mail, play the occasional light-weight game, etc.)

2. Hook it up to a USB sound module, launch & control Garage Band via remote desktop, and it becomes a great rack-mounted guitar/vocal signal processor that can sit anywhere in the room/concert hall and be controlled from anywhere else via laptop (or even with limited "blind" control usings BT devices).

3. Mount it in the car.

4. Headless server in your closet (or hell.. your kitchen cupboard).

etc.

They are handy gadgets, but they are not, and never were, the best available solution for OS X desktop computing. If that's what you want, buy an iMac and be happy.

I, for one, love the little buggers. I'm planning on buying two of them next October when 10.5 comes out. Hopefully they will have upgraded the airport cards to 802.11n by then.Don't plan on running Leopard very well on the GMA950

rcha101
Aug 7, 2007, 03:38 PM
I dont remember the macbook pro being 2.4ghz or an 8 way mac pro, have these also been refreshed??!

SkyBell
Aug 7, 2007, 03:38 PM
just a wee bit of a bump then, too bad:(
whaaat!:eek: 2gb max ram still???? I thought we were past this by now... comeon at least 3gb please....:rolleyes:
I'm still chugging away on 512 MB on my mini, and 256 MB on my iBook G3, both running Tiger.
I really want to buy a mac. Shame Apple won't get off it's high-horse on pricing high for old equipment. If the Mac Mini had been given Santa Rosa x3100 video, it would have been a great update and I would have purchased my first Mac.

Even the refurb at 479 seems pricey for a Core 1 Duo to me...
Pshh, people paid $600 for that.
Yes, because how else can they continue to sell over-priced hardware.

Sorry, I don't mean to be bitter because i am. I really wanted to finally switch to Mac, but for these prices I can't justify a machine that isn't even near current....
Current is a matter of opinion
Everybody whining about specs or comparing the mini to the "value" of other computers (Mac or otherwise) are completely missing the point.

The mini is not really a desktop machine. Never was.

It was conceived as a "PC top" machine, meaning that Windows devs who needed to do a few minutes a day of Mac support could plop one on top of the case of their PC.

It's an iBook/MacBook notebook motherboard in a tiny case with no monitor, keyboard, or mouse. In addition to it's intended use, people have found a lot of other great uses for it which no other machine does quite as well.

1. Hook it up to an HDTV or projector, and it makes an awesome media player (which also happens to let you browse the web, read e-mail, play the occasional light-weight game, etc.)

2. Hook it up to a USB sound module, launch & control Garage Band via remote desktop, and it becomes a great rack-mounted guitar/vocal signal processor that can sit anywhere in the room/concert hall and be controlled from anywhere else via laptop (or even with limited "blind" control usings BT devices).

3. Mount it in the car.

4. Headless server in your closet (or hell.. your kitchen cupboard).

etc.

They are handy gadgets, but they are not, and never were, the best available solution for OS X desktop computing. If that's what you want, buy an iMac and be happy.

I, for one, love the little buggers. I'm planning on buying two of them next October when 10.5 comes out. Hopefully they will have upgraded the airport cards to 802.11n by then.

THANK YOU! Finally someone who isn't complaining that the mini isnt close in specs to the iMac. It's not supposed to be.

Compile 'em all
Aug 7, 2007, 03:43 PM
IMHO the mini got a decent upgrade, specially after everyone thought it was dead. I am getting one to run as a HTPC but the euro prices are killing me. 600$ for the lower end model, that is 435 Euros. But this very same model goes for 600 Euros in Europe :(.

FunkyELF
Aug 7, 2007, 03:45 PM
Could it be that the reason these aren't Santa Rosa is because they needed something to do with the overstock from previous macbook's / iMacs?

Tara Davis
Aug 7, 2007, 03:48 PM
Just doing a quickie comparison with Dells, not trying too hard, but trying to get something roughly comparable...

$559
Dell Inspiron 530s

Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4400 (2MB L2 Cache,2.00GHz,800 FSB)
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium
No Monitor
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs
160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
16X DVD+/-RW Drive
Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3100
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse
13 in 1 Media Card Reader
Internal PCI 802.11g Wireless Network Card
OPTIONAL PORTS IEEE 1394a Adapter

Apple's offering suffers in comparison in pretty much every respect, except for form factor and operating system. They pretty much just dropped in a newer processor and a slightly larger HD. That's not enough. Since they're all built out of commodity parts, I really doubt the reliability will be that much different. If I used their productivity apps, that might be something too, but I don't. I can easily stick Linux on a 2nd partition or HD. Not that I've completely made up my mind, but this is a pretty pathetic update to the mini.

I think Apple doesn't really want this market, but they're willing to put out a substandard product at good margins if they don't have to try too hard. It's too bad, I think they'll still increase market share, but not like they could have done.

Suffers in every respect? It matches it spec-for-spec on most of those items.

Plus, the mini can run every major desktop OS, and therefore nearly every application, on the planet.

Get back to me when you're reliably running Garage Band, iMovie, or Keynote on that Dell. Until then, I proclaim the Dell Inspiron (and any other non-Apple PC) to be mere crippleware by comparison. kthxbye

iCe Cube
Aug 7, 2007, 03:50 PM
brilliant to see it updated

..not so brilliant that it wasn't publicised. I don't know why Apple are not advertising this more! This is perfect for the potential switchers.

princealfie
Aug 7, 2007, 03:51 PM
Suffers in every respect? It matches it spec-for-spec on most of those items.

Plus, the mini can run every major desktop OS, and therefore nearly every application, on the planet.

Get back to me when you're reliably running Garage Band, iMovie, or Keynote on that Dell. Until then, I proclaim the Dell Inspiron (and any other non-Apple PC) to be mere crippleware by comparison. kthxbye

plus the dell is way too big... the mac mini is perfect size for media recording.

Tara Davis
Aug 7, 2007, 03:54 PM
IMHO the mini got a decent upgrade, specially after everyone thought it was dead. I am getting one to run as a HTPC but the euro prices are killing me. 600$ for the lower end model, that is 435 Euros. But this very same model goes for 600 Euros in Europe :(.

So snap one up next time you travel abroad on vacation. It's small enough to fit in your carry-on luggage.

In the Mall of America (a bafflingly popular tourist site), you will find the Apple Store on the first floor of the South Wing, just a few paces West of the South main entrance of the mall.

Cheers.

Tara Davis
Aug 7, 2007, 03:57 PM
brilliant to see it updated

..not so brilliant that it wasn't publicised. I don't know why Apple are not advertising this more! This is perfect for the potential switchers.

Probably because a modest speed bump and extra glob of memory didn't really warrant the kind of fanfare the new iMac called for.

An incremental upgrade might be Big News for those of us who were worried about rumors of the mini being "Steved" in the immediate future, but otherwise it's not really worthy of a big press release.

Chisholm
Aug 7, 2007, 03:58 PM
I've never had any more quality control issues with Dell than with Apple in my department.



I've never attached a pic before...notice the duct tape? Gaffer's tape works better if you need to open the case on a regular basis.

Sorry, I just had to correct the typo too.

mrgreen4242
Aug 7, 2007, 04:02 PM
They toss in the current system DVD and the iLife '08 Install DVD. If it doesn't arrive in your box you simply phone Applecare and they send them right out free of charge. No problem. You neglected to phone right away and demand satisfaction in a polite way.

Store still down - education and/or refurb paths.

You got lucky/the AppleCare rep you got was nice/they have an unwritten policy because they're nice guys. You're not entitled to software that didn't come with the machine originally. Now that the store is up, I checked:

What's in
the Box


* - Refurbished Mac mini
* - Apple Remote
* - DVI to VGA adapter
* - Power cord
* - Install/restore DVDs
* - Printed and electronic documentation


Software

Mac OS X v10.4 Tiger
The world's most advanced operating system including these system applications:

* - Address Book
* - DVD Player
* - iCal
* - iChat AV
* - Mail
* - Preview
* - Safari
* - Xcode


Applications
Mac mini also comes with the following applications:

* - iLife '06
* - Front Row
* - Front Row
* - Photo Booth
* - iWork '06 30-day trial
* - Microsoft Office 2004 for Mac 30-day Test Drive


Note: Other software may or may not be included (pre-installed or on CD's/DVD's) with refurbished products, subject to availability.

Sorry, $1149. Your post actually made me consider getting an iMac for the first time in many years, but is it me, or is apple starting to cut the edu discount quite a bit?

Ya, you trimmed out the "if" part of my comment. :P I swear the old EDU discount knocked $100-200 off the iMacs at various levels, so I had high hopes they would leave SOME sub-$1000 machine in the lineup... but alas, barely a discount at all. Better off buying from Amazon and not paying sales tax. I also think they are starting to phase that program out. Probably to many people scamming that system. Maybe the should offer good discounts again, but only at campus stores/through the school. Ah well.

shu82
Aug 7, 2007, 04:03 PM
Could it be that the reason these aren't Santa Rosa is because they needed something to do with the overstock from previous macbook's / iMacs?

They have been producing the mini with the Macbook/ibook leftovers since the mini was introduced.

gkarris
Aug 7, 2007, 04:06 PM
The refurb prices on the just replaced mini's looks pretty decent:

Refurbished Mac mini, 1.66GHz Intel Core Duo
512MB memory
60GB hard drive
Combo drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
Intel GMA 950 graphics processor with 64MB of DDR2 memory

Original price: $599.00
Your price: $429.00



Refurbished Mac mini, 1.83GHz Intel Core Duo
512MB memory
80GB hard drive
SuperDrive (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Intel GMA 950 graphics processor with 64MB of DDR2 memory

Original price: $799.00
Your price: $479.00

Store's already sold out - what was that? About 1/2 hour?

kindvall
Aug 7, 2007, 04:10 PM
IMHO the mini got a decent upgrade, specially after everyone thought it was dead. I am getting one to run as a HTPC but the euro prices are killing me. 600$ for the lower end model, that is 435 Euros. But this very same model goes for 600 Euros in Europe :(.

In Sweden at least, there is a price drop. The 1.66CD was 5995 SEK, now the 1.83C2D is 5495 SEK. Then again, the SEK has appreciated with 10% towards the dollar in the last year.
The Mini now again fares very well compared to the PC clones with the same form factor.

qtx43
Aug 7, 2007, 04:11 PM
Suffers in every respect? It matches it spec-for-spec on most of those items.

Plus, the mini can run every major desktop OS, and therefore nearly every application, on the planet.

Get back to me when you're reliably running Garage Band, iMovie, or Keynote on that Dell. Until then, I proclaim the Dell Inspiron (and any other non-Apple PC) to be mere crippleware by comparison. kthxbye
You're funny. Compared to the $599 mini, "most of those items" are...well, let's just say I don't know how you counted them:

Price: Dell
Processor Speed: Dell
FSB Speed: Dell
HD Speed: Dell
HD Capacity: Dell
Writing DVDs: Dell (Combo drive is utterly ridiculous)
GMA graphics: Dell (this is a big one)
Wireless g: tie
1 GB memory: tie
Comes with Keyboard and Mouse: Dell
Form factor: Mac
OS: Mac (I do like OSX)

I'll give you one cheapo one:
Wired ethernet: Mac (with the largely unused gigabit ethernet)

Compared to the more expensive mini, Dell still wins on most counts.

I don't know how many USB ports the Dell has, but I did add the optional firewire port to even it up a little. And I previously mentioned the better form factor and OS of the Mac. Also that I don't much use their productivity apps. If that's whining and complaining, then I guess I'm a whiner.

It's probably true, as somebody mentioned, Apple didn't really intend this as a competitive desktop machine. Since they're not going after that market, they won't make many sales into that market. Oh well. I don't need or want to run nearly every application on the planet. I imagine few people do.

gkarris
Aug 7, 2007, 04:21 PM
You're funny. Compared to the $599 mini, "most of those items" are...well, let's just say I don't know how you counted them:

Price: Dell
Processor Speed: Dell
FSB Speed: Dell
HD Speed: Dell
HD Capacity: Dell
Writing DVDs: Dell (Combo drive is utterly ridiculous)
GMA graphics: Dell (this is a big one)
Wireless g: tie
1 GB memory: tie
Comes with Keyboard and Mouse: Dell
Form factor: Mac
OS: Mac (I do like OSX)

I'll give you one cheapo one:
Wired ethernet: Mac (with the largely unused gigabit ethernet)

Compared to the more expensive mini, Dell still wins on most counts.

I don't know how many USB ports the Dell has, but I did add the optional firewire port to even it up a little. And I previously mentioned the better form factor and OS of the Mac. Also that I don't much use their productivity apps. If that's whining and complaining, then I guess I'm a whiner.

It's probably true, as somebody mentioned, Apple didn't really intend this as a competitive desktop machine. Since they're not going after that market, they won't make many sales into that market. Oh well. I don't need or want to run nearly every application on the planet. I imagine few people do.

Here we go with the Dell thing again - is there any way we can ban mentioning Dells on this site?

My point - Dells stink up to high heaven.

http://www.ihatedell.net

twoodcc
Aug 7, 2007, 04:25 PM
glad to see that the mini is still here! and i hope that it stays here

network23
Aug 7, 2007, 04:31 PM
You're funny. Compared to the $599 mini, "most of those items" are...well, let's just say I don't know how you counted them:

Price: Dell
Processor Speed: Dell
FSB Speed: Dell
HD Speed: Dell
HD Capacity: Dell
Writing DVDs: Dell (Combo drive is utterly ridiculous)
GMA graphics: Dell (this is a big one)
Wireless g: tie
1 GB memory: tie
Comes with Keyboard and Mouse: Dell
Form factor: Mac
OS: Mac (I do like OSX)

I'll give you one cheapo one:
Wired ethernet: Mac (with the largely unused gigabit ethernet)

Compared to the more expensive mini, Dell still wins on most counts.

I don't know how many USB ports the Dell has, but I did add the optional firewire port to even it up a little. And I previously mentioned the better form factor and OS of the Mac. Also that I don't much use their productivity apps. If that's whining and complaining, then I guess I'm a whiner.

It's probably true, as somebody mentioned, Apple didn't really intend this as a competitive desktop machine. Since they're not going after that market, they won't make many sales into that market. Oh well. I don't need or want to run nearly every application on the planet. I imagine few people do.

More comparisons of Apples to Dells.

If you insist on comparing Apple and Dell, be fair about it. The Mini is built from portable stock, which costs more due to increased demands on miniturization and heat. Of course the Dell's going to cost less that way.

Put your best-matched Dell up to a full-size Mac, and then see how they compare. You wanna go up against the Mini, show me a Dell with comparable hardware (ie, small form-factor). Don't want to compare Dell laptops? Then Dell's got nothing. Have a nice day. Thanks for playing. No, there is no consolation prize.

WannaGoMac
Aug 7, 2007, 04:32 PM
Ummm... If you want some more power, why don't you check out the iMac?
I think they might be updating that soon, too... ;)

Cause I don't want an all in one.

WannaGoMac
Aug 7, 2007, 04:36 PM
lol

Apple / SJ hates poor/cheap people...

qtx43
Aug 7, 2007, 04:40 PM
Here we go with the Dell thing again - is there any way we can ban mentioning Dells on this site?

My point - Dells stink up to high heaven.

http://www.ihatedell.net
Ok, make it HP, it really doesn't matter that much. They all use commodity parts at this point. An Apple computer is not going to be hugely more reliable, even in RDF-land. And yes, I'm sure you've had bad experiences with Dell, but they're just anecdotal. People have bad experiences with Apples also (yes, that would include me). The point is, the specs on the mini are not impressive. At all. There have been times when the mini was fairly competitive on price, and if it wasn't quite, it made it up with OSX and a nice form factor and being quiet.

I buy computers mainly to work on, not to sit around and look pretty. Apple doesn't seem to be making the grade with this update. On the iMacs, they seem more competitive, but they're too narrowly targeted to include me as an consumer. I think, at this point.

Marx55
Aug 7, 2007, 04:44 PM
Where is the FireWire 800 in the Mac mini? Leopard Time Machine will love that!!!

Did you know that the Mac mini is MUCH FASTER booting from an external FireWire 400 disk that from its slow internal disk when tested with Xbench? Now imagine if it had FireWire 800 or even eSATA II bot booting and more!

qtx43
Aug 7, 2007, 04:47 PM
More comparisons of Apples to Dells.

If you insist on comparing Apple and Dell, be fair about it. The Mini is built from portable stock, which costs more due to increased demands on miniturization and heat. Of course the Dell's going to cost less that way.

Put your best-matched Dell up to a full-size Mac, and then see how they compare. You wanna go up against the Mini, show me a Dell with comparable hardware (ie, small form-factor). Don't want to compare Dell laptops? Then Dell's got nothing. Have a nice day. Thanks for playing. No, there is no consolation prize.
You're making my point for me. I'm not interested in buying a laptop at this time. And yes, the small form factor is nice, but if Apple wanted, they could put something in a small tower, or Apple TV footprint/Cube, and use desktop components. That's their choice, to go after a particular market.

They're not interested in being a full line computer company. They're chosen a few narrow markets, and if I did compare to a "full-size Mac" as you say, the only option with any real expandability is the Mac Pro. Do you really want to go down that route?

Oh well, enough I guess. You won't agree with me no matter what I say, so I've babbled on enough.

Tara Davis
Aug 7, 2007, 04:51 PM
You're funny. Compared to the $599 mini, "most of those items" are...well, let's just say I don't know how you counted them:

Price: Dell
Processor Speed: Dell
FSB Speed: Dell
HD Speed: Dell
HD Capacity: Dell
Writing DVDs: Dell (Combo drive is utterly ridiculous)
GMA graphics: Dell (this is a big one)
Wireless g: tie
1 GB memory: tie
Comes with Keyboard and Mouse: Dell
Form factor: Mac
OS: Mac (I do like OSX)

I'll give you one cheapo one:
Wired ethernet: Mac (with the largely unused gigabit ethernet)

Compared to the more expensive mini, Dell still wins on most counts.

I don't know how many USB ports the Dell has, but I did add the optional firewire port to even it up a little. And I previously mentioned the better form factor and OS of the Mac. Also that I don't much use their productivity apps. If that's whining and complaining, then I guess I'm a whiner.

It's probably true, as somebody mentioned, Apple didn't really intend this as a competitive desktop machine. Since they're not going after that market, they won't make many sales into that market. Oh well. I don't need or want to run nearly every application on the planet. I imagine few people do.

Cute how you changed your spec list when you saw you were losing the argument.

Let's have a look back at what you originally posted, shall we?

Core2Duo Tie with the $800 mini, slightly beats the $600

Vista LOSER!!!

No Monitor tie

1GB RAM tie

160GB HD tie (Dell's is faster, mini's burns less power, runs quieter, and takes up less space)

16X DVD+/-RW Drive beats the cheap mini, loses to the good one

Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3100 tie, in that both suck. if it ain't a discrete graphics card, it's nothing special.

Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio tie. only a choad buys both side and rear channel speakers.

Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse tie. both give you $0 worth of mouse & keyboard hardware.

13 in 1 Media Card Reader for?

Internal PCI 802.11g Wireless Network Card LOSER, no bluetooth for you!

OPTIONAL PORTS IEEE 1394a Adapter LOSER


Hmmm... looks an awful lot closer than "Suffers in comparison in pretty much every respect", don't it?

manchild
Aug 7, 2007, 05:00 PM
Cute how you changed your spec list when you saw you were losing the argument.

Let's have a look back at what you originally posted, shall we?

Core2Duo Tie with the $800 mini, slightly beats the $600

Vista LOSER!!!

No Monitor tie

1GB RAM tie

160GB HD tie (Dell's is faster, mini's burns less power, runs quieter, and takes up less space)

16X DVD+/-RW Drive beats the cheap mini, loses to the good one

Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3100 tie, in that both suck. if it ain't a discrete graphics card, it's nothing special.

Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio tie. only a choad buys both side and rear channel speakers.

Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse tie. both give you $0 worth of mouse & keyboard hardware.

13 in 1 Media Card Reader for?

Internal PCI 802.11g Wireless Network Card LOSER, no bluetooth for you!

OPTIONAL PORTS IEEE 1394a Adapter LOSER


Hmmm... looks an awful lot closer than "Suffers in comparison in pretty much every respect", don't it?

I haven't seen anyone mention FORM FACTOR. Smaller is generally more expensive with technology. A computer is not a diamond.

manu chao
Aug 7, 2007, 05:08 PM
The Mac mini always shared the technology of the low-end laptops in Apple's line-up. Anybody expecting the mini getting better specs than the MBs, was setting himself or herself up for a disappointment.

Now you can lament that the MBs don't have better specs but I think it is obvious that the cheapest Mac also is the slowest Mac on offer.

The only real issue I have, in respect to the mini, is the lag between updates to the MBs and the mini.

tirerim
Aug 7, 2007, 05:20 PM
A computer is not a diamond.

They're <a href="http://www.geek.com/diamond-semiconductors/">working on that</a>.

Kebabselector
Aug 7, 2007, 05:29 PM
Happy with the update to be honest. Price wise it isn't great. However in the UK they've given us £30 off Now it's 'only' £499 and the cheap one £399.

I hate the all in one solution that is the iMac, my current monitor is fine and doesn't have to be replaced when the computer is out of date.

Not too sure if i'll get the update. Might hold off for the Mac Pro update.

comingaround
Aug 7, 2007, 05:30 PM
Sure it's still alive, but it's dead to me even more than before, as much as I'd love to get one to use with my hdtv.

This sucks.

DakotaGuy
Aug 7, 2007, 05:51 PM
On the downside, my 1.83 GHz model is now outdated. :( ;)

Not by much.

Thomas2006
Aug 7, 2007, 06:02 PM
I would have liked to have seen 802.11n included in the update but I am guessing the updates it got were the only ones that could be done with no modifications to the design. It seems like Apple is going to be keeping the mini so maybe the next update will bring the latest wireless networking to the mini.

WannaGoMac
Aug 7, 2007, 06:06 PM
Did they basically just put in a C2D on the existing motherboard?

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 06:10 PM
Did they basically just put in a C2D on the existing motherboard?Correct

WannaGoMac
Aug 7, 2007, 06:14 PM
Correct

Cool.

Hmm, wonder if it is worth it to upgrade to C2D myself?

bighairydoofus
Aug 7, 2007, 06:15 PM
I'm just glad they didn't axe it entirely. Yes, it could be better, but since the video cards on the iMac are disappointing (and non-upgradable), I've completely given up on using a mac as even an occasional gaming computer. The video cards in the mac pro are a sick joke, especially considering what they cost.

Why no blue ray? Where's the revolutionary design? My "desk lamp" style iMac was a triumph of design in its time. There's no WOW with Apple anymore, unless you're into toys. Apple seems to think that their products should generate a buzz just because they're Macs, but now changing the frame to steel with a glossy display passes for inspired design, sheesh...

And because the mini didn't sell a meeelyun, beeelyun units, they're hoping (or forcing) that the mini will die out on the vine - while they completely missed a chance to market this awesome little box to the market it was intended for, people that want a computer that just works but doesn't cost as much as a down payment on a car. The mini has not been marketed properly, just like the apple TV.

When October comes around, I'll be buying either a MacBook or a mini to replace my aging (but aging well, thank you) 17" widescreen 1Ghz G4. Unfortunately, because I like to game and (lip service aside) because Apple seems to not care about gaming at all, I'll probably end up getting a gaming machine as well. At that point, I'll be off the Apple bus for three or four years, hoping that they wake up and give me something worth spending some REAL money on.

b33k34
Aug 7, 2007, 06:20 PM
Did they basically just put in a C2D on the existing motherboard?

Yep, i've been waiting to jump ship for an updated mac mini but it's hard to justify based on that spec. For £200 more you get a monitor and a substantial spec upgrade (graphics and hard disc) once the keyboard and mouse are taken into account. i think it's a base imac for me - is there no way of VESA mounting an iMac?

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 06:21 PM
Cool.

Hmm, wonder if it is worth it to upgrade to C2D myself?It can be done but you need to take the entire computer apart.

Archmagination
Aug 7, 2007, 06:29 PM
If only they would have went with the GMA X3100 instead of GMA 950... Benchmarks indicate that its 2 times more powerful than the 950 and it only costs $1-$3 more.

Heck Intel hasn't even managed to tap the full power of its X3100 because they haven't activated its hardware acceleration of shader's and AA support.. its still using the same software emulation that the GMA 950 does. If the hardware acceleration worked it would actually make 3-D games usable instead of the slideshow that they normally are.

flir67
Aug 7, 2007, 06:30 PM
whats the fastest c2d I can put in the mini, about to upgrade myself with cpu.

anyone please?


thanks

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 06:34 PM
whats the fastest c2d I can put in the mini, about to upgrade myself with cpu.

anyone please?


thanks2.33 GHz T7600

rog
Aug 7, 2007, 06:34 PM
I'm glad they kept it. I'm getting one for my mom who has never owned a computer and to keep her from getting a cheapo PC. I have an old monitor, keyboard, and mouse so this will be the cheapest option. The $1200 entry fee for an iMac is too much. 1GB standard now makes the Mini usable and it will be more than enough for her since she just wants to check email and use the internet, and maybe do photos. She'll be on wired DSL so lack of N is not a problem. For $600 she'll have a mac that is as fast or faster than my Dual G5 for most things.

flir67
Aug 7, 2007, 06:39 PM
2.33 GHz T7600


cool thanks

Multimedia
Aug 7, 2007, 06:47 PM
2.33 GHz T7600Price anyone? I'm thinking of buying one of those SuperDrive refurbs and goosing the RAM to 3GB with one of those 2.33GHz C2Ds. That sure would be sweet wouldn't it for still under $1k?

Nope. $648 at New Egg. So it's a premium processor.

bighairydoofus
Aug 7, 2007, 06:47 PM
If only they would have went with the GMA X3100 instead of GMA 950... Benchmarks indicate that its 2 times more powerful than the 950 and it only costs $1-$3 more.

It's simple, but sad. Apple wants the mini to go away.

:(

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 06:48 PM
Price anyone? I'm thinking of buying one of those SuperDrive refurbs and goosing the RAM to 3GB with one of those 2.33GHz C2Ds. That sure would be sweet wouldn't it for still under $1k?$500-600 still...

iW00t
Aug 7, 2007, 07:21 PM
Cute how you changed your spec list when you saw you were losing the argument.

Let's have a look back at what you originally posted, shall we?

Core2Duo Tie with the $800 mini, slightly beats the $600Comparing a $800 computer to a $600 one, LOL@YOU

Vista LOSER!!!Vista runs 99% of all games, what does OSX run?

No Monitor tie

1GB RAM tieWRONG! The Dell comes with 800mhz DDR2 modules! LOL@YOU

160GB HD tie (Dell's is faster, mini's burns less power, runs quieter, and takes up less space)burns less power, runs quieter, takes up less space... who cares? It is also 80GB smaller! LOL@YOU

16X DVD+/-RW Drive beats the cheap mini, loses to the good oneBeats the cheap one, that is what the whole comparison is about! LOL@YOU

Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3100 tie, in that both suck. if it ain't a discrete graphics card, it's nothing special.Hundreds of "Oh no, no X3100" posts from you poor MacTurds disagree with you! LOL@YOU

Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio tie. only a choad buys both side and rear channel speakers.That is because the Mac user has no money left after buying his Mac Mini and putty knife! LOL@YOU

Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse tie. both give you $0 worth of mouse & keyboard hardware.Cannot even word a fair and unbiased comparison? LOL@YOU

13 in 1 Media Card Reader for?Still shooting film in 2007? LOL@YOU

Internal PCI 802.11g Wireless Network Card LOSER, no bluetooth for you!Bluetooth? Oh, lemme return it back to you. What is it for? 1mb/s LAME WIRELESS STANDARD! LOL@YOU

OPTIONAL PORTS IEEE 1394a Adapter LOSERIs that your name? LOL@YOU


Hmmm... looks an awful lot closer than "Suffers in comparison in pretty much every respect", don't it?

Spit out that koolaid you got there.

If you cannot even make a factual and fair comparison don't expect to be taken seriously in turn.

bighairydoofus
Aug 7, 2007, 07:37 PM
Price anyone? I'm thinking of buying one of those SuperDrive refurbs and goosing the RAM to 3GB with one of those 2.33GHz C2Ds. That sure would be sweet wouldn't it for still under $1k?

Why bother with that? If you're going to mod it and void the warranty, just get a core solo on ebay and upgrade the memory and processor - it'll be even cheaper. But if you need the uberdrive, go for it...

wizard
Aug 7, 2007, 07:39 PM
Looks like I'm jumping ship on Apple as well. Time to look at what I can build with XP on it. :(


Why bother with XP when Linux can give you 95 % of what Apple delivers. Linux is very UNIX like and far more flexible user interface wise than either Apple or Microsoft.

Dave

steamboat26
Aug 7, 2007, 07:41 PM
Isn't the "silent update" exactly what they did to the G4 mini before it was discontinued?
Nice to see Core 2 Duos (finally) :)

Eidorian
Aug 7, 2007, 07:42 PM
Why bother with XP when Linux can give you 95 % of what Apple delivers. Linux is very UNIX like and far more flexible user interface wise than either Apple or Microsoft.

Dave*face palm*

I don't want to use Linux. It doesn't suit my needs for applications. I would have said that to begin with.

admiraldennis
Aug 7, 2007, 07:49 PM
Well, it's not dead yet.

It's nice to see the mini get an upgrade instead of the axe, but I really don't think it will survive at the current price point (nor does Apple really care). Too bad -- it's a great form factor and potentially perfect for an HTPC.

davenet
Aug 7, 2007, 08:01 PM
I still think the mac mini is a damn cool platform. You can still do a lot with it. To illustrate (and gloat a bit), I'm put my specs in my sig.

How'd you get your Mini up to 3.3GB of RAM?

David

commander.data
Aug 7, 2007, 08:10 PM
I can sympathize with Apple for not including the GMA X3100. Intel themselves haven't figured out how to activate all of the X3100's features like hardware T&L and VS on Windows yet so it's very likely that those features aren't available in OpenGL and OS X yet either. Apple's probably waiting until Q4, which I believe is when Intel said they should finally have full hardware DX9.0c support ready, and a refreshed MacBook and Mac Mini will probably come together at that time.

Going with the GMA X3100 would have also forced Apple to use 800MHz FSB CPUs since the GM965 chipset doesn't support 667MHz FSB Meroms. Apple probably wanted to maintain wider product separation.

kevinbal
Aug 7, 2007, 09:10 PM
Isn't the "silent update" exactly what they did to the G4 mini before it was discontinued?

Heheh, not quite. The 1.5 Ghz G4/64mb radeon Minis were never officially admitted to by Apple, nor posted on the spec pages. They just kind of magically appeared.... even the boxes still said 1.42/32 (I know, cause I bought one... and then an intel mini.... and today another intel mini.)

iW00t
Aug 7, 2007, 09:12 PM
I will pass, it is a decent update but lack of 802.11n is quite a bummer.

Even the TV has it!

macenforcer
Aug 7, 2007, 09:13 PM
I would have liked to have seen 802.11n included in the update but I am guessing the updates it got were the only ones that could be done with no modifications to the design. It seems like Apple is going to be keeping the mini so maybe the next update will bring the latest wireless networking to the mini.

Whatever. I simply purchased an "n" card for a mac pro and put it in my mac mini. Works perfectly. No they are trying to get rid of all those none "n" cards.

ironring2006
Aug 7, 2007, 09:15 PM
I don't know whether or not to laugh or cry at some of these comments.

For those that haven't figured out Apple's strategy yet, they're a business and their goal is to make money, and they seem to be doing a pretty good job at it.

One of the ways they do this is their product parts cycle. Right now they've got a pretty good line from the MBP down to the mini using all laptop components. Even looking at the new keyboard you can see this parts reuse strategy. It's easy to see that the next MB's will get the guts of the current MBP. The next mini will get the guts of the current MB. The iMac kind of fits inbetween the MBP and the MB. This all reduces their overall costs. The MacPro is kind of on it's own, and that's why there's a larger premium on it.

So, the mini is there for the last of the line, left over parts. But they're still selling it a decent premium, and they'll keep selling it until they run out of parts more or less. They really do sell, despite what people here might think.

Just think of all those people saying, well, the :apple:tv doesn't quite do everything I want it to do. What do people tell them? Buy a mini!

For all those people saying, well, the mini doesn't quite do everything I want it to do, I think I'll get an iMac or a MB.

For all those people saying, well, the iMac or MB doesn't have the ooomph I really need, then get a MBP or a MP.

So you have
:apple:tv -> $299 and $399
MacMini -> $599 and $799
consumer (all in ones) -> $1099, $1199, $1299, $1499, and $1799
Pro -> $1999, $2499, $2799

See what they're doing? They keep bumping you up the line. Eventually everybody has their limit, but their goal is to squeeze the absolute most out of you. Ideally everybody would have a fully stocked MacPro with 2x30in ACD's.

As long as Apple has something like the mini to get people to look at their computers, its easier to upsell them on something better. They just need that $599 price tag to at least be there for people that normally would only be looking in that price range. Plus, it's a great way to get the last bit of money out of their older parts AND it really is a great machine that a lot of people have put to varying and interesting applications.

macenforcer
Aug 7, 2007, 09:17 PM
How'd you get your Mini up to 3.3GB of RAM?

David

You can't, he is lying. I already asked this question. Lets see him prove it. The mini will only take 2gb of ram.

Why do people keep saying it can?

mrichmon
Aug 7, 2007, 11:53 PM
i think it's a base imac for me - is there no way of VESA mounting an iMac?

The Apple store has a VESA mount adapter for the 24" iMac. Doesn't look like Apple has a VESA mounting option for the 20".

ankh
Aug 7, 2007, 11:59 PM
I was sure hoping there was some truth to it.

booksacool1
Aug 8, 2007, 12:17 AM
Man I'm a bit disappointed with the mini. I thought apple was sorta obliged to include santa rosa, but instead apple stuck in a slightly less obsolete CPU and called it an upgrade.

For what it is, its rather expensive. An older platform, 80gb HDD, 965 graphics...
They should just have included the x3100 and made it run at 667mhz FSB or something. That would differentiate the product lines, and give a low-end graphics upgrade. Its just a pity because they could have done so much more with the mini (which is a great idea anyway).

I suppose I'll get one anyway...

iW00t
Aug 8, 2007, 12:31 AM
Man I'm a bit disappointed with the mini. I thought apple was sorta obliged to include santa rosa, but instead apple stuck in a slightly less obsolete CPU and called it an upgrade.

For what it is, its rather expensive. An older platform, 80gb HDD, 965 graphics...
They should just have included the x3100 and made it run at 667mhz FSB or something. That would differentiate the product lines, and give a low-end graphics upgrade. Its just a pity because they could have done so much more with the mini (which is a great idea anyway).

I suppose I'll get one anyway...

If you don't like it, why buy it?

Besides the MacBook didn't get the x3100 chipset, what gave you the idea that the Mini would? You were actually expecting Apple to surpass your expectations? Wow.

Apart from the MacBook Pro with its better than expected GPU and LCD update this has been a pretty crappy year for the Mac so far.

Eidorian
Aug 8, 2007, 12:34 AM
If you don't like it, why buy it?

Besides the MacBook didn't get the x3100 chipset, what gave you the idea that the Mini would? You were actually expecting Apple to surpass your expectations? Wow.

Apart from the MacBook Pro with its better than expected GPU and LCD update this has been a pretty crappy year for the Mac so far.I feel generally abandoned when it comes to Apple computers this year.

I just can't bring myself to be an Apple apologist for the hardware they decide to put out.

Mac One
Aug 8, 2007, 12:38 AM
I'm kinda pleased they renewed the mini even though it's not fabulus - it is an entry level machine and for the price I wouln't expect much better from a PC. I also noticed on the NZ store that they have finally dropped the price in relation to the NZ$ - its about 20% cheaper than before!:DWe would consider the cheaper one as a replacement for our 98PC and my dad's 95PC!!!:eek:

Evangelion
Aug 8, 2007, 01:23 AM
Just doing a quickie comparison with Dells, not trying too hard, but trying to get something roughly comparable....

Um, that's nowhere near "comparable". There are more to computers than just bunch of specs.

iW00t
Aug 8, 2007, 01:28 AM
Um, that's nowhere near "comparable". There are more to computers than just bunch of specs.

Like?

Eidorian
Aug 8, 2007, 01:31 AM
Um, that's nowhere near "comparable". There are more to computers than just bunch of specs.I'd like to know what those are. Good looks can only get you so far. iLife and OS X is nice but when you're crippled by hardware it doesn't shine.

k2k koos
Aug 8, 2007, 01:37 AM
Just a little disapointed that airport build in, is still the "g" variety, and not the draft "n" standard the other Mac's ship with......

Don't care about the integrated graphics, I don't need graphic power, nor do I do Gaming on a mac, I have a Wii for that kind of fun. :apple:
One thing though, I am so going to order the new iLife and iWork suites :-):apple:

Evangelion
Aug 8, 2007, 02:59 AM
Like?

Like the design and software that runs on the machine? Mini is a gorgerous machine that feels like a hi-end piece of equipment. It's so tiny that you can literally lose it on your desk. It's also virtually silent. The Dell? I bet that its a black minitower that is made from cheap plastic? Can you put it on your desk and forget that it's there? No. Is it silent? I doubt it. Can it run OS X? No.

I have Mac Mini, and I also had a tower-PC. And the design-difference between those two was enormous. The PC was huge and it kept getting in my way. I could not keep it on my desk since it was too big, and it took large amount of precious legroom under the desk. When I used it, it felt like I was operating a piece of machinery, since it kept on humming and distracting me. The Mini on the other hand did NOT get in to my way. I could concentrate on the thing I was doing, instead of being constantly reminded that I have a computer running next to me.

Whenever I read these "But the Dell is better!"-comments I'm reminded of Zune and iPod. Zune looks better on paper: It has bigger screen and WiFi. But in reality iPod mops the floor with it. Why is that? Because there are more to these things than just specs. If specs were the only thing that mattered, we would all be using Archos and Zunes, instead of iPods.

Just because something looks better on paper does not mean that it's actually better in real-life use. And fact of the matter is that for someone who is looking for an inexpensive Mac, the Dell is not an option, since it's not a Mac.

iW00t
Aug 8, 2007, 03:11 AM
Like the design and software that runs on the machine? Mini is a gorgerous machine that feels like a hi-end piece of equipment. It's so tiny that you can literally lose it on your desk. It's also virtually silent. The Dell? I bet that its a black minitower that is made from cheap plastic? Can you put it on your desk and forget that it's there? No. Is it silent? I doubt it. Can it run OS X? No.

I have Mac Mini, and I also had a tower-PC. And the design-difference between those two was enormous. The PC was huge and it kept getting in my way. I could not keep it on my desk since it was too big, and it took large amount of precious legroom under the desk. When I used it, it felt like I was operating a piece of machinery, since it kept on humming and distracting me. The Mini on the other hand did NOT get in to my way. I could concentrate on the thing I was doing, instead of being constantly reminded that I have a computer running next to me.

Whenever I read these "But the Dell is better!"-comments I'm reminded of Zune and iPod. Zune looks better on paper: It has bigger screen and WiFi. But in reality iPod mops the floor with it. Why is that? Because there are more to these things than just specs. If specs were the only thing that mattered, we would all be using Archos and Zunes, instead of iPods.

Just because something looks better on paper does not mean that it's actually better in real-life use. And fact of the matter is that for someone who is looking for an inexpensive Mac, the Dell is not an option, since it's not a Mac.

How old is your tower PC?

I too have a PC tower running on one of those new Core 2 Duo chips. Absolutely silent.

It sits nicely under my desk, I have no trouble adding an additional harddrive to my machine without turning my workspace into a snake's nest, and I can easily upgrade my graphics card as I like, a pain that even the recent iMac users know just too well.

Everything has pros and cons.

mayoko185
Aug 8, 2007, 03:12 AM
my mac mini I bought second hand that I upgraded is still better then this poor excuse of a refresh. -sigh- I guess ill keep dreaming of that mythical mac that is somewhere between a mini and a mac pro :rolleyes: (and does not have a built in display no thank you imac!)

Evangelion
Aug 8, 2007, 03:21 AM
How old is your tower PC?

I assembled the tower-PC in 2004 using ultra-silent enclosure and quite fans. Mac Mini was bought in 2005.

It sits nicely under my desk

I have no room under the desk, so in my case it would have to sit on the desk.

I have no trouble adding an additional harddrive to my machine without turning my workspace into a snake's nest, and I can easily upgrade my graphics card as I like, a pain that even the recent iMac users know just too well

I too swore for upgradeability not too long ago. But then I realized something: I never really took advantage of it. Yes, I had added a hard-drive or two to my PC's, but that's about it. Vid-cards? By the time I wanted to upgrade, I had to get a new motherboard since connectors had moved on. CPU's? They went and changed the sockets, so I would have had to get a new motherboard. Same thing with RAM. In essence: when I upgraded, I practically got a new computer. It never made much sense to me to upgrade just one component, so I went ahead and upgraded everything.

Cable-mess when adding hard-drives? Well, I have two external HD's connected to the Mini, and there is no mess. They look practically identical to the Mini and they are stacked underneath it. They are connected to it through short FireWire-cables.

Jowl
Aug 8, 2007, 03:53 AM
I guess if I wanted a new Desktop computer then I'd be annoyed at the small Mini updates. But as I want one (or 2!) as a HTPC then it's great. Small, silent, enough power to feed a 26"/32" TV and enough storage space for all the TV I'll record until I archive it to a fileserver.

It seems that Apple don't really do Desktop hardware. I love their laptops but apart from the Mac Pro - beyond most consumers price budget - then there isn't a form factor that really does it.

Im not asking to change the motherboard - just want to upgrade/add HDD's, possibly graphics card and perhaps add an internal IO/TV card.

Is it only MacRumours members that want a mid range tower? Must be otherwise woudn't Apple listen to their customers and give us one?

reflex
Aug 8, 2007, 04:39 AM
IMHO the mini got a decent upgrade, specially after everyone thought it was dead. I am getting one to run as a HTPC but the euro prices are killing me. 600$ for the lower end model, that is 435 Euros. But this very same model goes for 600 Euros in Europe :(.

Don't forget to add VAT to the price after converting to euro. That's €527 in Belgium (21% VAT), so we're not getting ripped off quite as much as you think.

reflex
Aug 8, 2007, 04:42 AM
Apple / SJ hates poor/cheap people...

Most companies prefer people with lots of cash to spend :)

Voltayre
Aug 8, 2007, 04:59 AM
I just want to know if they are going to be in retail stores today. I called my local store and they didn't know anything. Apparently, consumers are higher up on the new product chain of command than the store employees.

Apple Store employees are not permitted to talk about unreleased products until the moment Apple actually start selling them. It's a standard Apple clause in the contract. There's a difference between them not knowing anything and just saying that they don't know anything, and let's be honest, the average Apple Store employee is going to know at least as much as we are because they're going to visit the same sites.

According to DaringFireball.net, "Jobs hates the Mini, so it got neither a mention during the event (until the Q&A) nor a press release, but Apple did refresh it today... as for why Jobs hates it, think about his comments during the event making fun of Dell machines because of the all the cables you need to hook them up to displays and webcams. That all applies equally to the Mini."

Err... doesn't that also apply equally to the Mac Pro? :confused:

Anyway, I for one am glad they kept the Mac Mini after all and even furnished it with a slight speed bump, though I confess to a twinge of disappointment that they didn't do something about its sucktacular GPU. I mean, even the AppleTV has a GeForce 7300 with 64MB of discrete VRAM these days. Ah well - as long as it's around I'm not going to complain too hard.

stephenli
Aug 8, 2007, 05:01 AM
I have been waiting for it for too long.
I will place my order once 10.5 release!

Thanks apple for not killing the mini~
I am going to connect it to Bravia in living room:apple:

oingoboingo
Aug 8, 2007, 05:33 AM
Given the disappointing graphics chip in the iMac, I decided to pick up a 2GHz Mac mini, and put the AU $900 saving towards a PC gaming system or Xbox 360 instead. Placed my order this morning...hopefully should have it within the next few days. Will be a nice upgrade from the 1.33GHz 12" PowerBook that I'm currently using as my sole machine. :D

MacQuest
Aug 8, 2007, 05:43 AM
I doubt they will be Santa Rosa. I think it will be C2D like the previous generation MacBooks (as in 1.83GHz or 2.0GHz).

Good call. :)

Still have GMA 950:mad:

Ditto.

EXTREMELY dissapointed about that AND no 802.11n (maybe they're using the Airport Extreme cards that can be enabled for pre-N?).

"Missed it by that much" - Maxwell Smart

Kebabselector
Aug 8, 2007, 05:56 AM
I was sure hoping there was some truth to it.

Wasn't it related to the 2gb + 1gb memory module trick on the MacBook.

Read it here somewhere, don't know if its possible.

iW00t
Aug 8, 2007, 06:25 AM
Steve Jobs doesn't care about PC using people!

MacQuest
Aug 8, 2007, 06:37 AM
More comparisons of Apples to Dells.

Tell me about it.

Which company has been worth more since early 2006 despite selling far less units?

The Dell bargain bin strategy has, and continues to fail. Why would Apple want to get dragged into a failed business model that it has always known would fail? The Mac mini is an entry level Mac that focus on the most basic user with the understanding that hardcore video editing, gaming, or any other tasks as difficult or more difficult than those require at least the consumer iMac or higher and possibly even other applications like Final Cut Express in the case of video editing, etc.

There are 4 computer markets: bargain, consumer, professional, and information management (IT). Although Dell is well positioned in the highest level, it's not enough to offset the fact that they're at the top of the bottom of that market. That is why they're bleeding, and Apple has no desire to get wounded along with them. Not when Apple is SO damn healthy because it's NOT doing what Dell is.

Get it? Got it? Good.

You won't see Macs in Wal-Mart anytime soon either, but you sure can get a Dell. That speaks volumes about their quality and worth.

I swear, if I have one more Dell switcher (of which I've encountered thousands over the past 5 years) come whining to me about "Dell's Tech Support in India" (I'm not at ALL racist, but enough is enough), they're Piece of Crap (PC) hardware, and ESPECIALLY their general problems that they get because of the lack of seamless integration between junk windows OS and even junkier Dell hardware, I'm gonna personally kick michael "I'm gettin' my a$$ handed to me by Steve Jobs" dell in the nutz.

FIN.

Sesshi
Aug 8, 2007, 06:57 AM
No. the reason that Apple is so darned healthy is because enough people bought the iPod. It has very little to do with computers at this point in time.

As for the choice, people use them because they have become a fashion and are more of a no-brainer (literally) to use. The same, of course, goes for the Mac but it is not contributing to Apple's bottom line and the market confidence to date anything like the iPod ecosystem.

Cloudane
Aug 8, 2007, 07:08 AM
Given the disappointing graphics chip in the iMac, I decided to pick up a 2GHz Mac mini, and put the AU $900 saving towards a PC gaming system or Xbox 360 instead. Placed my order this morning...hopefully should have it within the next few days. Will be a nice upgrade from the 1.33GHz 12" PowerBook that I'm currently using as my sole machine. :D

Let us know how it performs in comparison - I'm looking to do exactly the same thing (I have a 1.33 G4 12" Powerbook too, and I think it's pitifully slow), I'm curious how much faster it feels if any, when it comes to day-to-day stuff.

Is the Intel graphics chip actually worse than the NVidia Go5200 that's in the Powerbook? I do very very little gaming on a Mac (got a PC for that), but I've been known to run World of Warcraft (amazingly operates quite smoothly on that old PB) and Second Life (slideshow, but it runs)

MacQuest
Aug 8, 2007, 07:13 AM
No. the reason that Apple is so darned healthy is because enough people bought the iPod.

The iPod Halo effect excuse is done and gone. Has been for well over a year now since the transition to Intel was complete. Of course iPods still contribute heavily to Apple's bottom line, but not like they did from 2003-2006 where Apple's computer line was gimped.

Fact of the matter is that people have been switching from windows pc's to Macs for over a year now for ONE reason: because they are NOT windows pc's.

It has very little to do with computers at this point in time.

Macs are outselling windows pc's by 3:1.

It has EVERYTHING to do with computers at this point in time.

As for the choice, people use them because they have become a fashion and are more of a no-brainer to use.

Wow. I haven't heard the "Macs just look pretty" argument for a couple of years now since a large part of the public has figured out that having a computer that looks so much better AND works so much better is the reason that windows users are switching to Macs by the hundreds of thousands year over year.

Many others on the market give better results in many ways but require more effort and knowledge to use well.

Exactly. As I've said for years now, "It takes intelligence to focus and streamline processes and in Apple's case, products. However, any idiot can make things that can be easy difficult... microsoft and windows pc manufacturers have proven that."

It's like if I had a choice between buying a refrigerator that I had to constantly tweak according to various factors (how much food is in it, what kind of food is in it, did my removing any of that food "destabilize" the fridge and do I have to "optimize" it to get it back to it's original state, what's the temperature outside, etc.) and choosing one that takes that all into account for me so that all I have to know is that it "just works".

Macs "just work".

Cloudane
Aug 8, 2007, 07:23 AM
I too swore for upgradeability not too long ago. But then I realized something: I never really took advantage of it. Yes, I had added a hard-drive or two to my PC's, but that's about it. Vid-cards? By the time I wanted to upgrade, I had to get a new motherboard since connectors had moved on. CPU's? They went and changed the sockets, so I would have had to get a new motherboard. Same thing with RAM. In essence: when I upgraded, I practically got a new computer. It never made much sense to me to upgrade just one component, so I went ahead and upgraded everything.

Pretty much agree with this viewpoint on the upgradability issue. I remember when everything was supposedly "future-proof" (classic marketing term, now pretty much dead) and you could gain a lot from having the same machine and upgrading bits and bobs along the way - and everything was designed for this, because components were so expensive. Fond memories of upgrading from 4MB to 8MB to run Doom, and it cost a fortune to do so!

Last PC I had, I upgraded the graphics card eventually because I skimped at purchase time and it was only a year later. It's just coming up to 4 years old and pretty much everything in it is obsolete - AGP instead of PCI-X, old style PSU, original SATA, quite an old P4 socket etc. It'd be pointless to try and upgrade it.

Latest PC, I've already had it for 1.5 years and not really been inside it, and don't envisage doing so for its lifetime either. They're just so cheap now I guess, that it makes more sense to get a whole new one each time.

The funny thing with this is, if you get a new one every say 3-4 years, you end up with a build-up of the damn things and don't know what to do with them! No point in selling because they'd be worth peanuts, no desire to waste etc. This is where Macs are better for long-term economics as they can have a useful life of 6+ years at least and still sell for reasonable amounts second-hand.

I can see where people are coming from with the Mac graphics cards though. With a PC there's no need to upgrade anything *IF* you pick the correct components to start off with. The same applies to Macs - it's just that Apple haven't offered a suitable choice for those who want more beefy graphics.

MacQuest
Aug 8, 2007, 07:48 AM
Going with the GMA X3100 would have also forced Apple to use 800MHz FSB CPUs since the GM965 chipset doesn't support 667MHz FSB Meroms. Apple probably wanted to maintain wider product separation.

Then they should have dropped the prices to $499 and $699 and swooped the market.

$599 and $799 would only be justified with better graphics and 802.11n along with the C2D upgrade IMO.

Apart from the MacBook Pro with its better than expected GPU and LCD update this has been a pretty crappy year for the Mac so far.

That's going a little too far. This latest (probably the last) Mac mini "SUCKDATE" (it's so bad that I actually came up with a more appropriate word for it than "update") may have BLOWN MAJOR CHUNKS (are you listening, Apple?) but this iMac revision is DAMN GOOD (are you listening, Apple?) on top of the Mac Pro having gone 8 core.

What's left? MacBook needs SR. We'll see that as early as this month in time for back to school or at the latest near the release of Leopard in a couple of months.

I personally think we'll see the MacBook updated to SR in October which will at the same time signal the demise of the Mac mini (face it people, these next 2 months are just Apple cleaning house and getting rid of old technology through the MacBook and Mac mini) while at the that same time ushering in Leopard and... dare I say it?.... I dare!.... the BRAND NEW Mac Pro mini towers!!!

:eek::p:D

snowfall
Aug 8, 2007, 07:58 AM
I'm assuming that not upgrading the graphics to the x3100 means they didn't have to update the motherboard, so that this update was pretty much just putting existing pieces of hardware together and testing them.... does that sound right?

Of course, they could have done that 6 months ago, but if they're mini decisions are based on inventory forecasts, then they may have decided to wait until they had enough spare parts to make it worthwhile. I'll also go ahead and assume that by updating the mini as much as they did, it's now ready to run Leopard... so a minimal update to get their low-end machine ready for the new OS.

By the way, all the comparisons to the Macbook ("if they don't put it in the MacBook why put it in the mini") only make sense to me from an inventory perspective, i.e. why update past the macbook when that means you'd need a greater inventory of parts to manage. There's no reason as a desktop that the mini needs to be held in line with the macbook, they're pretty much different markets.

The mini probably continues to sell pretty well despite all the grievances expressed here, but my guess if they had done a more substantial update or dropped the price they would sell even more and realize a greater overall profit... but that's total conjecture on my part. Just a little more innovation into this particular market gap would probably do wonders.

I'll probably pick one up in a few months any ways, I need something to complement my old 12" PB and there's no way I'm lugging around a big MB or MBP. And since most of the time I run the PB on a Dell LCD (which despite the yammering about Dell here, has been perfect), I can replace it with the mini and still use the PB while moving about.

ironring2006
Aug 8, 2007, 08:13 AM
By the way, all the comparisons to the Macbook ("if they don't put it in the MacBook why put it in the mini") only make sense to me from an inventory perspective, i.e. why update past the macbook when that means you'd need a greater inventory of parts to manage. There's no reason as a desktop that the mini needs to be held in line with the macbook, they're pretty much different markets.

That may be a single reason, but these days it is a pretty important one. All that business speak about "lean engineering", "just-in-time production", "six-sigma" and all that other stuff. Put the squeeze on, reduce your costs and see your profit margin increase.

MacQuest
Aug 8, 2007, 08:23 AM
Apple / SJ hates poor/cheap people...

Most companies prefer people with lots of cash to spend :)

Don't worry WannaGoMac, I got the Kanye West reference. ;)

Reflex, here you go so that you can get the joke: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/03/kanye_west_george_bu.html

Tara Davis
Aug 8, 2007, 08:33 AM
I too swore for upgradeability not too long ago. But then I realized something: I never really took advantage of it. Yes, I had added a hard-drive or two to my PC's, but that's about it. Vid-cards? By the time I wanted to upgrade, I had to get a new motherboard since connectors had moved on. CPU's? They went and changed the sockets, so I would have had to get a new motherboard. Same thing with RAM. In essence: when I upgraded, I practically got a new computer. It never made much sense to me to upgrade just one component, so I went ahead and upgraded everything.


Ah, so nice to see somebody else overcoming the "PC upgrades" myth.

Yes, your PC can be upgraded, but by the time you are ready for a major upgrade, such as your CPU or your graphics card, you will find that it will not be worth it, because you'll want to upgrade so many other components along with it.

The last time I upgraded a PC, I found myself swapping in a brand new motherboard into the case, which required new memory, new GPU, new CPU, new power supply, oh, and even new hard drives. That's when I finally stopped kidding myself and realized that the best way to get value out of a computer is to buy and set up a complete system which will suit your needs for a few years, then sell it to a poor college kid and buy a new one when the time comes to "upgrade".

Tara Davis
Aug 8, 2007, 08:46 AM
By the way, I can't help but notice that there are about a half-dozen posts in this forum saying something along the lines of "I wish they advanced it more" or "I wish they made it cheaper" followed by "but I'll probably get one anyway."

Many of those who are wondering why Apple isn't putting more costly parts in or knocking the price down have pretty much answered your own question. If you're willing to buy it anyway, they probably hit the bulls-eye in terms of price and specs.

The product non-portable line in a nutshell:

The mini is a terrific multi-purpose gadget.
The iMac is an outstanding desktop computer.
The Mac Pro is a powerful workstation.
None of them are impressive game machines for the money.

90% of the anti-mac hostility over GPU choices or "upgradability" is coming from gamers. News Flash: PC's are better game machines, and have been for decades. If all you care about is gaming, buy a PC and shut the hell up about Macs. You are not their target market, and won't be any time soon.

snowfall
Aug 8, 2007, 09:08 AM
Ah, so nice to see somebody else overcoming the "PC upgrades" myth.


This was years ago, but I kept an old Dell PII 450 system current by upgrading the processor with a 1.2Ghz Powerleap and the video card with whatever the latest nVidia card was... breathed new life into the system and let me use it with the then-current software and games, for less than $300. A faster, bigger hard drive would have been easy, as well as adding firewire, bluetooth, USB 2, a video tuner card, and a host of other accessories and upgrades.

So, no, I don't think upgradability is a myth, nor is it ineffective on a cost basis for a PC... I just doubt that most people take advantage of it. However, given the Mac's smaller market share, wouldn't most aftermarket upgrades be pretty expensive? I wouldn't see much use in allowing substantial upgradability if price would put it out of most people's reach any ways. And why would Apple want to allow upgrades if it cannibalized new machine sales?

Do I wish I could upgrade my PB with a faster processor, HD, and video card? Of course, but I'd rather have it be well put together than easily taken apart, so to speak. I think this goes for the mini too, at least for my needs.

snowfall
Aug 8, 2007, 09:18 AM
By the way, I can't help but notice that there are about a half-dozen posts in this forum saying something along the lines of "I wish they advanced it more" or "I wish they made it cheaper" followed by "but I'll probably get one anyway."

Many of those who are wondering why Apple isn't putting more costly parts in or knocking the price down have pretty much answered your own question. If you're willing to buy it anyway, they probably hit the bulls-eye in terms of price and specs.

Given that I might be one of those half-dozen, I'll reply. 6 out of 200 posts does not make overwhelmingly positive statistics. :) And a good portion of those 200 are complaints...

As for me, I'm an existing mac user (and former Apple employee) with a niche need for a small portable machine that I can carry with me easily on international flights. I'm willing to accept average performance because the form factor is more important to me. What everyone else seems to be saying is that Apple could use the mini to convert all those complainers if it added more performance or dropped the price, and therefore grow past the mini past its current niche. I'm sure Apple has thought that through though...

Personally I think dropping the price would be the better move, as PC owners could keep their PCs for gaming and pick up a mini for everything else, but heck I've never run a company as successful as Apple -and it was in the doghouse when I was there- so what do I know? :rolleyes:

WannaGoMac
Aug 8, 2007, 09:22 AM
Don't worry WannaGoMac, I got the Kanye West reference. ;)

Reflex, here you go so that you can get the joke: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/03/kanye_west_george_bu.html

Thank god SOMEONE did! :) LOL, people here were responding as if it were a serious comment haha

qtx43
Aug 8, 2007, 09:25 AM
Tell me about it.

Which company has been worth more since early 2006 despite selling far less units?

The Dell bargain bin strategy has, and continues to fail. Why would Apple want to get dragged into a failed business model that it has always known would fail? The Mac mini is an entry level Mac that focus on the most basic user with the understanding that hardcore video editing, gaming, or any other tasks as difficult or more difficult than those require at least the consumer iMac or higher and possibly even other applications like Final Cut Express in the case of video editing, etc.

There are 4 computer markets: bargain, consumer, professional, and information management (IT). Although Dell is well positioned in the highest level, it's not enough to offset the fact that they're at the top of the bottom of that market. That is why they're bleeding, and Apple has no desire to get wounded along with them. Not when Apple is SO damn healthy because it's NOT doing what Dell is.

Get it? Got it? Good.

You won't see Macs in Wal-Mart anytime soon either, but you sure can get a Dell. That speaks volumes about their quality and worth.

I swear, if I have one more Dell switcher (of which I've encountered thousands over the past 5 years) come whining to me about "Dell's Tech Support in India" (I'm not at ALL racist, but enough is enough), they're Piece of Crap (PC) hardware, and ESPECIALLY their general problems that they get because of the lack of seamless integration between junk windows OS and even junkier Dell hardware, I'm gonna personally kick michael "I'm gettin' my a$$ handed to me by Steve Jobs" dell in the nutz.

FIN.

Some of that I agree with that, but towards the end you start going off the deep end. I don't think that you're going to end up agreeing with me, but you could at least try and understand where I'm coming from. That is: I do not personally identify with Steve Jobs as you do. Yes, I'm sure he's doing what (in his mind) is best for his business. I, on the other hand, do what is best for me. I have no doubt Steve Jobs likes customers who like to spend money. I also have no doubt that when Steve Jobs is a customer himself that he spends as little as possible. Just like me.

And all that ranting about Dell being junky hardware is falling on deaf ears. Apple uses commodity parts just like any other manufacturer, it's no more or less reliable. Having said that, you do want to avoid some of the really cheap stuff that really does use less reliable parts.

Yes, the form factor and OSX and working out of the box have some value. But not enough to make up for ridiculously underspec'ed hardware. For unixy goodness and security I can go to Linux, for mainstream apps and games MS.

So you say Apple has no desire to "get wounded"? True. But it's a rough world out there; "red in tooth and claw". Apple, on the other hand, has the RDF and customers like you. When and if they decide to step out of that bubble and offer something worth buying, I'm there.

snowfall
Aug 8, 2007, 09:29 AM
That may be a single reason, but these days it is a pretty important one. All that business speak about "lean engineering", "just-in-time production", "six-sigma" and all that other stuff. Put the squeeze on, reduce your costs and see your profit margin increase.

Which, by the way, most companies do horribly. I think the people who have made the most money from the six-sigma "revolution" are the six-sigma consultants!

Bottom-line savings only get you so far though, you need to innovate to keep creating top-line revenue growth. For example, Dell's low cost focus and lack of innovation investment is a good pointer to its current challenges. However, I don't think anyone can claim that Apple isn't innovating, nor that they're not growing revenues. The debate seems to be more around whether or not they're innovating "enough" on their bread-and-butter platform, the Mac. I think Leopard will probably a great answer to that debate, at least I hope it will! Steve did say this would be a great year for the mac, didn't he?

Whether or not their using yesterday's hardware, I think the Mac has come a long way in the last couple of years... I just haven't bought a new one in that time frame myself.

reflex
Aug 8, 2007, 09:33 AM
Thank god SOMEONE did! :) LOL, people here were responding as if it were a serious comment haha

It sure seems serious enough when you don't watch American tv :)

snowfall
Aug 8, 2007, 09:45 AM
...I'm gonna personally kick michael "I'm gettin' my a$$ handed to me by Steve Jobs" dell in the nutz.

FIN.

Hmm, I was under the impression that Dell was getting beat up by the rest of the PC industry, not Apple specifically. Most particularly HP, Sony, and Toshiba are really eating into Dell's market share... though for many of the reasons you illustrated in your post: low quality, lack of innovation, service, etc. I have to say though, my experience with Apple's quality and service haven't been all wonderful, I've had Apple HDs and logic boards fail on me a number of times in the same machine, and their customer rep's response was "Buy a new mac" even though the machine was only 2 years old and still covered under Apple Care.

Any ways, I'm still curious why Apple doesn't offer a more mid-range headless mac. Sure it could eat into iMac sales but it could grow overall sales too. Unless of course the mid-range is the most cut throat market of all, and sticking to the niches of tiny minis and all-in-one iMacs are easier markets to stand out in.

Cloudane
Aug 8, 2007, 09:45 AM
I see people are still throwing around the rumour that it's soon to be discontinued.

Having thought about this carefully, I disagree - going by how much of the forum talk yesterday revolved around "please don't drop the Mini" and how much excitement there was when it survived, I'd say there's still one heck of a market for them. And as someone pointed out earlier, it's priced just right so that anyone thinking of one who has space for another screen (or is considering replacing their screen) would be very tempted on the iMac even if they weren't originally, because you get much more bang for not many more bucks.

Apple are not enthusiastic about the Mini, of course. They'd rather sell the bigger and more expensive machines, that's where the direct profit lies and where all their efforts are being pumped. That's why they don't update it every 5 minutes or make big exciting presentations about it when they do.

It's bound to be a less profitable item (directly, even though it helps grab 'switchers' and generate more long-term profits) so it makes no business sense to spend as much time/money/effort keeping it up to date or hyping it up. At the same time, even though it makes sense not to put too much effort into the Mini, it's definitely worth keeping, for the sake of switchers looking for a "cheap" Mac and then eventually seeing the light and upgrading. And the occasional geek like me who just wants a really small quiet Mac for numerous reasons.

WannaGoMac
Aug 8, 2007, 09:46 AM
I think the Mac defenders don't understand a simple fact -- we attackers all really like the Mac, and are upset they won't build more form-factors or at a cost that isn't so much more than a PC from HP/Dell/Whatever...

So yes, we can go take our business elsewhere, and we are not Apple's target market, AND Macs aren't for games (funny how all the Mac people got soooo excited that EA was coming back to the Mac) -- you miss the point of our bitching -- we want to be in Apple's market as we like the software. And, it would take very little effort on Apple's part to include us in the Mac experience.

Do 2 things:

1) Lower cost of the mini by at least $100 on both models.

2) Increase the performance so the Mini is at least competitive with other $800 computers

Share the love. We like Macs too, but just dislike Apple :)

gkarris
Aug 8, 2007, 10:06 AM
Tell me about it.

Which company has been worth more since early 2006 despite selling far less units?

The Dell bargain bin strategy has, and continues to fail. Why would Apple want to get dragged into a failed business model that it has always known would fail? The Mac mini is an entry level Mac that focus on the most basic user with the understanding that hardcore video editing, gaming, or any other tasks as difficult or more difficult than those require at least the consumer iMac or higher and possibly even other applications like Final Cut Express in the case of video editing, etc.

There are 4 computer markets: bargain, consumer, professional, and information management (IT). Although Dell is well positioned in the highest level, it's not enough to offset the fact that they're at the top of the bottom of that market. That is why they're bleeding, and Apple has no desire to get wounded along with them. Not when Apple is SO damn healthy because it's NOT doing what Dell is.

Get it? Got it? Good.

You won't see Macs in Wal-Mart anytime soon either, but you sure can get a Dell. That speaks volumes about their quality and worth.

I swear, if I have one more Dell switcher (of which I've encountered thousands over the past 5 years) come whining to me about "Dell's Tech Support in India" (I'm not at ALL racist, but enough is enough), they're Piece of Crap (PC) hardware, and ESPECIALLY their general problems that they get because of the lack of seamless integration between junk windows OS and even junkier Dell hardware, I'm gonna personally kick michael "I'm gettin' my a$$ handed to me by Steve Jobs" dell in the nutz.

FIN.

A man after my own heart.

http://www.ihatedell.net

Interestingly enough, this guy I know had built one of those uber custom PC's at $2,000 that supposedly is great for audio and video (not a Dell though). He's had a bunch of problems, especially trying to make video and DVDs.

I bought a stock Mini 1.66 (I had a firewire external portable DVD burner to hook up to it) and with a measly 512Meg, am making videos and DVDs without a hitch....

Games? Prefer a console to a computer....

gregoryp
Aug 8, 2007, 11:00 AM
I was disappointed to not see the X3000 graphics... after all, the thing does not accept an after market GPU, so you are stuck with what it has.

But on the other hand, Apple did not TOTALLY cheap out. They seem to have adopted the standard Centrino Duo platform, as opposed to the "top of the line" Centrino Core Pro. T5000 vs T7000 chips. Going to SR T7000 chips at this point would have been pretty pricey.

http://www.intel.com/products/centrino/compare.htm

I'm betting this sets up a "speed bump" once Leopard launches. Intel will be running out of Napa chips by then. ;-)

freediverdude
Aug 8, 2007, 12:15 PM
While the GMA 950 graphics and combo drive ARE ridiculous in a $600 computer now, I am glad that they kept the mini. If they got rid of the mini, their lowest priced computer would be $1199 (excluding edu discounts or refurb), which would price a lot of people out of the picture.

rikers_mailbox
Aug 8, 2007, 12:25 PM
I'll probably pick one up in a few months any ways, I need something to complement my old 12" PB and there's no way I'm lugging around a big MB or MBP. And since most of the time I run the PB on a Dell LCD (which despite the yammering about Dell here, has been perfect), I can replace it with the mini and still use the PB while moving about.

Here here! We have about the exact same setup.. Right now I have a 12" PB 1.33 GHz (best Mac laptop ever). While at home it's usually hooked into a Dell 2005FPW 20" widescreen. Isn't it great?

Soon I'll pick up a Mac Mini to compliment the PB. The Mini is attractive for a number of reasons... mainly that i'll finally have a Mac w/ intel and if I wait long enough, it'll come with Leopard and iLife '08. So, the mini fits the bill... tho i did wish it had 802.11n. Then I'd pick up the latest Airport Base station and use Airport Disk. That is a pretty cool feature.

Anyways, my point is that people rag on the mini, but it has it's market.

Do I wish I could upgrade my PB with a faster processor, HD, and video card? Of course, but I'd rather have it be well put together than easily taken apart, so to speak. I think this goes for the mini too, at least for my needs.

Upgrading the HD in the 12" PB isn't too hard. I was forced to when mine gave up the ghost. Now I have 120GB onboard. veery niiiice.

islandgirl45
Aug 8, 2007, 12:32 PM
Does MacRumors know, (or can you find out) whether the Draft "n" wireless capability can be "unlocked on the higher-spec Mac Mini?
That configuration now matches the lower-spec MacBook which has "n" wireless built in.
I talked to an Apple customer service rep who checked with tech support and received an response saying that version of the Mini has been "unlocked."
But the spec page says only 802.11g.

goosnarrggh
Aug 8, 2007, 01:18 PM
Does MacRumors know, (or can you find out) whether the Draft "n" wireless capability can be "unlocked on the higher-spec Mac Mini?
That configuration now matches the lower-spec MacBook which has "n" wireless built in.
I talked to an Apple customer service rep who checked with tech support and received an response saying that version of the Mini has been "unlocked."
But the spec page says only 802.11g.
It might require more than a software "unlock". There's widespread speculation that the Mac Mini's logic board might not have changed at all, but instead there was simply a drop-in replacement of the CPU from Core Duo to the pin-compatible Core 2 Duo. If that's the case, then the wi-fi chipset will not have been replaced, so that the Mac Mini would still only be physically capable of operating at 802.11g.

With the MacBook, on the other hand, there was a change in the wi-fi chipset at the same time as the CPU upgrade. So the potential for draft "n" capability was physically present in the MacBook's hardware right from the beginning of the Core 2 Duo era, but hidden from use by a software limitation.

Verification of which situation is actually true could potentially be done by booting one of the new Mac Minis in Windows XP using Boot Camp -- with appropriate drivers installed, XP was capable of identifying the draft-N chipset in the C2D MacBooks, MacBook Pros, and iMacs, even before Apple had officially released the unlocker.

manchild
Aug 8, 2007, 01:19 PM
Does MacRumors know, (or can you find out) whether the Draft "n" wireless capability can be "unlocked on the higher-spec Mac Mini?
That configuration now matches the lower-spec MacBook which has "n" wireless built in.
I talked to an Apple customer service rep who checked with tech support and received an response saying that version of the Mini has been "unlocked."
But the spec page says only 802.11g.

If it's got 3 antennas inside it's likely to be 802.11n. If there is only 1 antenna it's only 802.11g. At this point apple has little reason to hide 802.11n from the public. QuickerTek does make an 802.11n upgrade for the mini but it costs $179 for those who really need it. Maybe they're shipping some with one spec and the rest with an update. I seem to recall apple doing that with the first update to the mini. In my opinion apple is using the mini to liquidate their older MacBook and pro stock components - i.e. processors, wireless, hard drives, etc. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a fantastic computer given it's size - great for the livingroom. Killing the 17" iMac probably saved that price/product segment.

turlehe
Aug 8, 2007, 01:30 PM
A shame about the in built GFX, but i wont be playing games or anything.

I'm using a Dell Dimension 4600, p4 2.8 (about 4 years old!). anyone got any charts to show speed comparisons to the 2.0ghz C2D?

mac mini will be my first mac :apple:

dont24
Aug 8, 2007, 01:37 PM
A man after my own heart.

http://www.ihatedell.net

Interestingly enough, this guy I know had built one of those uber custom PC's at $2,000 that supposedly is great for audio and video (not a Dell though). He's had a bunch of problems, especially trying to make video and DVDs.

I bought a stock Mini 1.66 (I had a firewire external portable DVD burner to hook up to it) and with a measly 512Meg, am making videos and DVDs without a hitch....

Games? Prefer a console to a computer....

I'm making DVDs and videos with my G4 1.43 mini. Rendering is very slow. Other than that I've had no issues. Now it's time for an upgrade. Trying to decide between a new mini or 24" iMac. The deciding factor may be the Glossy screen on the iMac. If I don't like it, I'll get another mini.

Eidorian
Aug 8, 2007, 01:39 PM
A shame about the in built GFX, but i wont be playing games or anything.

I'm using a Dell Dimension 4600, p4 2.8 (about 4 years old!). anyone got any charts to show speed comparisons to the 2.0ghz C2D?

mac mini will be my first mac :apple:http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=912&model2=882&chart=430

Look for the red bars. I picked a video encoding benchmark.

Sesshi
Aug 8, 2007, 01:59 PM
The iPod Halo effect excuse is done and gone. Has been for well over a year now since the transition to Intel was complete. Of course iPods still contribute heavily to Apple's bottom line, but not like they did from 2003-2006 where Apple's computer line was gimped.

Fact of the matter is that people have been switching from windows pc's to Macs for over a year now for ONE reason: because they are NOT windows pc's.



Macs are outselling windows pc's by 3:1.

It has EVERYTHING to do with computers at this point in time.



Wow. I haven't heard the "Macs just look pretty" argument for a couple of years now since a large part of the public has figured out that having a computer that looks so much better AND works so much better is the reason that windows users are switching to Macs by the hundreds of thousands year over year.



Exactly. As I've said for years now, "It takes intelligence to focus and streamline processes and in Apple's case, products. However, any idiot can make things that can be easy difficult... microsoft and windows pc manufacturers have proven that."

It's like if I had a choice between buying a refrigerator that I had to constantly tweak according to various factors (how much food is in it, what kind of food is in it, did my removing any of that food "destabilize" the fridge and do I have to "optimize" it to get it back to it's original state, what's the temperature outside, etc.) and choosing one that takes that all into account for me so that all I have to know is that it "just works".

Macs "just work".

Filed under "Wishful thinking".

WannaGoMac
Aug 8, 2007, 02:15 PM
Macs are outselling windows pc's by 3:1.


Uh, what are you smoking? Can I have some as it must be great ***** if you are seeing such BS numbers....

I think you're confusing growth rate with sales.... macs have a LONG way to go to sell 3x the number of pcs....

PNW
Aug 8, 2007, 03:45 PM
The Mini is a great computer for email, web, media playing, etc.
As a bonus it has a slick design and is totally unobtrusive.

The Mini is not the answer for those of us (myself included) looking for a mid-range tower / headless iMac. The fact that with a little tweaking it could be is why there are so many negatives responses. It's time to face the facts the mini is a dumping ground for Macbook parts and always will be. As long as the lower end MB has a combo drive so will the lower end Mini.

If all you care about is function the mini is way overpriced, but it scores major points for form. And at least for us that plus the simplicity and security of the OS made it worth picking up a while ago for the family computer in the den.

As to why Apple should make a headless iMac / mid range tower / Cube:
My work/play/digital darkroom Linux/XP box is long in the tooth and I'd like to replace it with a Mac. Yes in the last 5 years I have upgraded /replaced the GPU, RAM, CPU, and added a few PCI cards (TV tuner, Firewire and better network card). The idea that "nobody does this" is rubbish.
While the new iMac looks great and has enough RAM/CPU to spark my interest, I'm still paying for a 24" monitor I don't need(can't get the faster processor in the 20" & I currently have a very nice 20" wide-screen and 19" reg flat pannels), and I'm stuck with a video card I'm not that psyched about. I could go Pro, but then it's bulky, has more processor than I need, and no remote

robalan
Aug 8, 2007, 04:13 PM
I ordered an updated mini shortly after the UK store came back up and was given an expected delivery date of the 9th Aug. I've now had a revised ship date email:

"The demand for the product you ordered has been higher than anticipated. We are shipping as quickly as possible, but cannot meet the dispatch date we previously estimated for you. We now expect to dispatch your order by 13.08.2007."

Anyone else got this?

dale.albiston
Aug 8, 2007, 04:31 PM
well I was hoping for duel link DVI, to drive a 30" panel, other than that I'm not too bothered, but the lack fo thats a deal breaker for me.

it was going to be duel role, firstly running in the loft as a server for itunes folders and other such documents. also allowing the playback of said media in the loft.

second role was running parallels to allow one very specific set of software, to control a lenz DCC system via a USB interface.

the idea was to stick with the mac, backup the config files from the VM, and then if anything nuked it.. just copy it from a backup.

I wanted a mini since its small and runs OSX, the same as my main machine, windows is just for one program.. and that doesn't run on linux under wine so a small 'PC' with linux was out..

pity but I guess I'll have to wait some more. I need the screen res of a 30" panel, a 24" just isn't big enough.

double pity since the metalic box would look good alongside the lenz gear it would be controlling.. not that I'd see it much.. the other huge advantage is its small size means it would fit behind the monitor...

Thomas2006
Aug 8, 2007, 06:06 PM
The Mac mini is neither dead nor an unwanted stepchild, but is a valued member of the Mac family. It is due to circumstances beyond Apple's control that the mini went without an update for so long and I will tell you why. When Apple moved to Intel processors the Mac mini, iBook, and PowerBook already existed so there wasn't much they could do so they did what they could.

Initially the MacBook Pro got the Core Duo, the Mac mini got a Core Solo and a Core Duo, and the MacBook got the Core Duo making all three lines 32-bit. The Mac mini got the first update which eliminated the Core Solo, but kept it at 32-bit. The MacBook Pro got the next update with the Core 2 Duo and the MacBook followed a month later getting the Core 2 Duo making Apple's portables 64-bit, leaving the Mac mini as the only Mac with a 32-bit processor.

Apple was now free to work on differentiating the MacBook and MacBook Pro even more than it already was in their next update by putting Santa Rosa in the MacBook Pro, but not the MacBook. Both lines got 802.11n, making the Mac mini fall even further behind the portables, the MacBook got faster processors, and the 15" MacBook Pro got LED. Now that the three lines have a clear separation of features the Mac mini will get regular updates. Let us recap where we were, are, and are going:

Previously:
MacBook Pro - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11g
MacBook - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11g
Mac mini - 65nm Core Duo, 802.11g

Currently:
MacBook Pro - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11n, Santa Rosa
MacBook - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11n
Mac mini - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11g

Next update:
MacBook Pro - 45nm "Penryn", 802.11n, Santa Rosa
MacBook - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11n, Santa Rosa
Mac mini - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11n

Update after next:
MacBook Pro - 45nm "Penryn", 802.11n, next chipset version (quad-core CTO)
MacBook - 45nm "Penryn", 802.11n, Santa Rosa
Mac mini - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11n, Santa Rosa

snowfall
Aug 8, 2007, 07:00 PM
Now that the three lines have a clear separation of features the Mac mini will get regular updates.


Now, this is the kind of logic I that I said was confusing me earlier: putting the mini, MB, and MBP in the same line up. One's a desktop the other two are notebooks, why is it necessary to do a separation of features between the mini and the MacBooks when there is already the built-in differentiation of having to plug a keyboard, a mouse, a power source, and a monitor into the mini? Why not discuss the need to differentiate the Mac Pro with the MBP, while we're at it...

Now that being said, perhaps there could be some argument that a desktop could cannibalize notebook sales, but I'm not sure it would amount to much. Hmm, actually I don't know, maybe Apple just wants to sell laptops and all-in-ones... better margins for them, perhaps? Since Apple hasn't innovated on its displays for some time, and there's no more external iSight, there could be some truth to that.

Oh well.

Cloudane
Aug 8, 2007, 07:07 PM
I was previously fretting over whether to get a Mini or go the whole hog and get an iMac. Here's why.

Currently living with parents. No plans to move out. (Don't judge - anyone who knows about housing in the UK will sympathise.)

This leaves me with the 2 locations I can inhabit:
* A corner of our "computer room" where I can just fit a desk and my PC (dumping it for a Mac is out of the question, I use it for online gaming) and a superb 1440x900 LCD. There's not really room for anything else.

* My bedroom. 10ft x 6ft with a massive chunk taken up by the hot water boiler (aka airing cupboard). There's room for a bed, a very small wardrobe, and a very small desk, which can accommodate a multi-purpose LCD (TV and monitor), mini hifi, PS2, Xbox, and I've somehow crammed the second PC tower underneath it. (There is definitely NOT room for a Mac Pro there, mini tower at best).

I currently use an old G4 1.33 12" Powerbook for my Mac needs.

There's no way in hell I can fit an iMac in either of those places without sacrificing things, and I don't want to sacrifice any of the above (basically the two screens - I need one for TV, and the other for the PC). A Mini is literally the only option, other than a new portable... and I prefer a portable to stay, y'know, portable. I want a desktop Mac to complement the Powerbook, not something to replace it. This thing will go anywhere.

However my parents recently offered to swap over the "computer" room and my bedroom, so I'd basically have twice the space, at the least. However IF this happens (and it's a big IF with my folks) it'd take at least 6 months to organise, shift junk, decorate, and do the move. There's like 20 years of accumilated junk in that comp room. But when it's all done, you can be damn sure I'd want a *decent* mac in there as well as the PC, and would be kicking myself for getting the Mac Mini.

And then I remembered that Macs hardly depreciate at all. I could get a Mac Mini now (well, at the end of the month) and if the move goes ahead or it turns out to be junk? No problem! EBay, probably lose £100 max, no problemo at all!

But I probably won't regret it. You rarely get a computer that small, other than a laptop, and it'll have many many uses.

Thomas2006
Aug 8, 2007, 09:35 PM
Now, this is the kind of logic I that I said was confusing me earlier: putting the mini, MB, and MBP in the same line up. One's a desktop the other two are notebooks, why is it necessary to do a separation of features between the mini and the MacBooks when there is already the built-in differentiation of having to plug a keyboard, a mouse, a power source, and a monitor into the mini? Why not discuss the need to differentiate the Mac Pro with the MBP, while we're at it...

Now that being said, perhaps there could be some argument that a desktop could cannibalize notebook sales, but I'm not sure it would amount to much. Hmm, actually I don't know, maybe Apple just wants to sell laptops and all-in-ones... better margins for them, perhaps? Since Apple hasn't innovated on its displays for some time, and there's no more external iSight, there could be some truth to that.

Oh well.
When the Mac mini first came out the high-end model cost $699 and the high-end iBook cost $1299. Both used the same processor speed, had a SuperDrive, came with 512MB RAM, but the Mac mini had an 80GB hard drive while the iBook had a 60GB hard drive. Because the specs were so close people were saying the mini was just an iBook without the monitor and keyboard, but with a $600 difference. I believe the major argument was the iBooks should have been a lot cheaper because it shouldn't cost $600 for a 14" monitor and keyboard, "the only difference" between the two. Keeping the Mac mini a feature or two behind the MacBook drives home the point it is an entry-level Mac and doesn't have the latest and greatest components.

Kawasaki
Aug 8, 2007, 10:28 PM
I thought that the mini was dead...

oingoboingo
Aug 9, 2007, 12:17 AM
Let us know how it performs in comparison - I'm looking to do exactly the same thing (I have a 1.33 G4 12" Powerbook too, and I think it's pitifully slow), I'm curious how much faster it feels if any, when it comes to day-to-day stuff.

Is the Intel graphics chip actually worse than the NVidia Go5200 that's in the Powerbook? I do very very little gaming on a Mac (got a PC for that), but I've been known to run World of Warcraft (amazingly operates quite smoothly on that old PB) and Second Life (slideshow, but it runs)

Will do (when it arrives). A little surprised to hear you think the 1.33 12" is that slow. I have 1.25GB RAM and a 7200rpm drive in mine and while it's not a speed demon (obviously), it does a good job keeping up with what I use it for in the lab (web, e-mail, Word, Excel, Papers, a few Java microscopy apps, various random Perl scripts and MySQL stuff). Maybe I've just got low expectations. You develop those after working in research for a while :rolleyes:

If someone else doesn't do a WoW benchmark on the mini before I get it, I'll install it and give it a run. I think your allusion is probably correct, ie: as wretched as the GMA950 is, could it *really* be any worse than the FX5200 in the 12" PowerBook? I guess at least the FX5200 has 64MB of dedicated VRAM and the GMA950 steals some of the main system RAM. Anyway. We shall see.

Eidorian
Aug 9, 2007, 12:22 AM
Will do (when it arrives). A little surprised to hear you think the 1.33 12" is that slow. I have 1.25GB RAM and a 7200rpm drive in mine and while it's not a speed demon (obviously), it does a good job keeping up with what I use it for in the lab (web, e-mail, Word, Excel, Papers, a few Java microscopy apps, various random Perl scripts and MySQL stuff). Maybe I've just got low expectations. You develop those after working in research for a while :rolleyes:

If someone else doesn't do a WoW benchmark on the mini before I get it, I'll install it and give it a run. I think your allusion is probably correct, ie: as wretched as the GMA950 is, could it *really* be any worse than the FX5200 in the 12" PowerBook? I guess at least the FX5200 has 64MB of dedicated VRAM and the GMA950 steals some of the main system RAM. Anyway. We shall see.The FX5200 does have dedicated T&L and shader hardware though.

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/games/mac_wow_performance.html

MacinDoc
Aug 9, 2007, 01:28 AM
The Apple Store is down again - now what?

WannaGoMac
Aug 9, 2007, 08:23 AM
This makes no sense, did Apple raise the price on the Mini refurbs? This was $479 on Tuesday... now it is back to the price before Apple released C2D mini??

Refurbished Mac mini 1.66GHz Intel Core Duo
512MB memory
80GB hard drive
SuperDrive (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Intel GMA 950 graphics processor with 64MB of DDR2 memory
Learn More
• Save 19% off the original price
Original price: $799.00
Your price: $649.00

Estimated Ship:
3-5 business days
Free Shipping

snowfall
Aug 9, 2007, 09:14 AM
Because the specs were so close people were saying the mini was just an iBook without the monitor and keyboard, but with a $600 difference. I believe the major argument was the iBooks should have been a lot cheaper because it shouldn't cost $600 for a 14" monitor and keyboard, "the only difference" between the two. Keeping the Mac mini a feature or two behind the MacBook drives home the point it is an entry-level Mac and doesn't have the latest and greatest components.

I see what you're saying, but still disagree with your basic argument... hopefully in a nice way! :) Two major points:

One, costs are more than the sum of component costs. For example, in general notebooks are harder to design than desktops, even ones like the mini, because their operating conditions are more demanding and there are more components requiring tighter integration. So despite the "same" hardware components, Apple needs to invest more fixed cost in designing, testing, and manufacturing a notebook than it does a desktop.

Two, despite the fact that the hardware components might be the same, the mini and macbook are still in different market segments. You can charge $$$ more for a notebook because the market has proven that people will pay for the portability, built in-screen, etc of a laptop... this is true for both PCs and Macs. Successful companies don't price based just on cost, they price based on perceived value, and consumers will set their own limits for that.... which is why Macs in general are more expensive than PCs, black macbooks are more expensive than white, etc.

People looking to buy a macbook have a different set of criteria than people looking to buy a mini. Could there be some overlap? Sure, but I doubt it's anywhere near 100%. And if the difference in those segments is non-trivial, then there's not such a need for an engineered differentiation between a mini and a MacBook like you're suggesting: no matter what their components are, they're already differentiated. If anything, it would be the MacBook that could cannibalize mini sales, as it could do everything the mini can do and more! With the exception of size of course, which is no small value so to speak....

My guess is that Apple's decisions for the mini were along the lines of, "Look, we need to update the mini to run Leopard, we don't want to charge more than $799, we want to keep our profit margin at X%, we don't want to increase fixed cost via design of new motherboards, etc. so what features can we sell?"

And out came what we have now! Which has probably already cost me significant $$$ in lost productivity by writing about it so much :p

WannaGoMac
Aug 9, 2007, 09:26 AM
My guess is that Apple's decisions for the mini were along the lines of, "Look, we need to update the mini to run Leopard,


Why do you believe a Core Duo will not run Leopard well?
Just curious...

netcastle
Aug 9, 2007, 10:51 AM
I don't think that this latest revision will run leopard any better than the last version of the mini, except for the modest speed bump of the processor upgrade. Still, nothing has really changed in the architecture that will allow it to take advantage of the memory addressing capabilities of a true 64 bit system.

snowfall
Aug 9, 2007, 02:07 PM
I don't think that this latest revision will run leopard any better than the last version of the mini, except for the modest speed bump of the processor upgrade. Still, nothing has really changed in the architecture that will allow it to take advantage of the memory addressing capabilities of a true 64 bit system.

Well, if true then that corrects a misunderstood assumption on my part: that the 64bitness of Leopard would lead to performance improvements on 64bit machines. :)

But what does this page mean then, http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/technology/64bit.html

64-Bit. Advanced precision in one OS.

Leopard delivers 64-bit power in one, universal OS. Now the Cocoa application frameworks, as well as graphics, scripting, and the UNIX foundations of the Mac, are all 64-bit. And since you get full performance and compatibility for your 32-bit applications and drivers, you don’t need to update everything on your system just to run a single 64-bit application.

Admittedly, I may have already passed the point of not knowing what I'm talking about, but I thought 64 bit meant more than just addressing advantages too... 64 bit arithmetic for one. Perhaps a greater number of speedy core registers to hold data in (rather than swap out to cache)?

That's it, I've definitely passed my point of ignorance.

WannaGoMac
Aug 9, 2007, 02:26 PM
Let me see if I can help on the 64-bit aspect. My understanding is that 64-bit only allows the OS to address more than 4-gb of ram. that's it. If you don't have more than 4gb of ram in your computer, 64-bit will not make any difference in performance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit#Memory_limitations

ankh
Aug 9, 2007, 05:41 PM
1.83GHz Mac mini (MB138LL/A) 2.0GHz Mac mini (MB139LL/A)
Processor 1.83GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
L2 cache 2MB shared 4MB shared

How much difference (now, and with the next OSX) will the cache make?

If I missed this in discussion, sorry, pointer please to any comments.

snowfall
Aug 9, 2007, 06:35 PM
Let me see if I can help on the 64-bit aspect. My understanding is that 64-bit only allows the OS to address more than 4-gb of ram. that's it. If you don't have more than 4gb of ram in your computer, 64-bit will not make any difference in performance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit#Memory_limitations

Actually, I don't think that's entirely accurate, 64 bit computing means more than just increasing your address space.

Your CPU instructions are now 64 bit rather than 32 bit, which could offer some advantages. Your registers (the fastest memory storage in a computer) are also 64 bit, which means if you need to do calculations with really large numbers (larger than 2^32, perhaps for some heavy video encoding) then you can do it directly in the registers without having to use multiple registers for overflow (to carry lots of 1's) or to swap out to cache, which both hurt performance. There's also supposedly double the number of registers in the Core 2 Duo too, which should give performance enhancements in both 32bit or 64bit applications. Finally, I imagine addressing large amounts of virtual memory (HD based) becomes easier with a 64bit processor, but I'm not sure.

The question is whether or not all that really matters to the day to day operation of Leopard. The increased number of registers would, but if you're not using Leopard for heavy video encoding or the like (and hey, this is the mini we're talking about) then maybe the rest doesn't matter much in typical usage.

I did study 64 bit computing years ago, but it's all mixed up in my head!

Eidorian
Aug 9, 2007, 06:40 PM
1.83GHz Mac mini (MB138LL/A) 2.0GHz Mac mini (MB139LL/A)
Processor 1.83GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
L2 cache 2MB shared 4MB shared

How much difference (now, and with the next OSX) will the cache make?

If I missed this in discussion, sorry, pointer please to any comments.It'll be much faster in addition to the clock speed. More data can be stored on the CPU instead of moving to the slower RAM.

ankh
Aug 9, 2007, 07:32 PM
Thanks. That's what I thought. I wondered why I hadn't seen the 2 vs 4meg cache mentioned anywhere, and I don't know if there's always been a difference in cache size between the two price levels.

Does it vary with the chip CPU?

I just happened on the difference in cache described here:
http://support.apple.com/specs/macmini/Mac_mini_Mid_2007.html

Another question -- are there cooler, as well as faster, CPUs that can drop into the new Mini models? I gather development on that line has stopped, is a best-of-the-litter model out? Might just go ahead and buy it if so.

I know the mini's not the _best_ box to upgrade. But short of Apple's pricey boxcar-sized models, well, the mini's looking okay.

To frame the upgrade/cpu question: My 2000 "Pismo" has an aftermarket G3 900mhz CPU, better hard drives, and better RAM (turned out the original Apple-installed RAM caused crashes for three years! I dumped it after AppleCare ended, and my problems ended --- after five AppleCare Vacations that never found the problem).

Eidorian
Aug 9, 2007, 07:38 PM
Thanks. That's what I thought. I wondered why I hadn't seen the 2 vs 4meg cache mentioned anywhere, and I don't know if there's always been a difference in cache size between the two price levels.

Does it vary with the chip CPU?

I just happened on the difference in cache described here:
http://support.apple.com/specs/macmini/Mac_mini_Mid_2007.html

Another question -- are there cooler, as well as faster, CPUs that can drop into the new Mini models? I gather development on that line has stopped, is a best-of-the-litter model out? Might just go ahead and buy it if so.

I know the mini's not the _best_ box to upgrade. But short of Apple's pricey boxcar-sized models, well, the mini's looking okay.

To frame the upgrade/cpu question: My 2000 "Pismo" has an aftermarket G3 900mhz CPU, better hard drives, and better RAM (turned out the original Apple-installed RAM caused crashes for three years! I dumped it after AppleCare ended, and my problems ended --- after five AppleCare Vacations that never found the problem).The T7600 2.33 GHz (I posted this in this thread yesterday!)

It's $600 of painful warranty voiding goodness.