Church Cancels Memorial For Gay Navy Vet

[yg17]

I love how they call themselves a "nondenominational" church :rolleyes:

http://www.ksdk.com/news/world/us_world_article.aspx?storyid=126652

ARLINGTON, Texas (AP) -- A megachurch canceled a memorial service for a Navy veteran 24 hours before it was to start because the deceased was gay.

Officials at the nondenominational High Point Church knew that Cecil Howard Sinclair was gay when they offered to host his service, said his sister, Kathleen Wright. But after his obituary listed his life partner as one of his survivors, she said, it was called off.

"It's a slap in the face. It's like, 'Oh, we're sorry he died, but he's gay so we can't help you,"' she said Friday.

Wright said High Point offered to hold the service for Sinclair because their brother is a janitor there. Sinclair, who served in the first Gulf War, died Monday at age 46 from an infection after surgery to prepare him for a heart transplant.

The church's pastor, the Rev. Gary Simons, said no one knew Sinclair, who was not a church member, was gay until the day before the Thursday service, when staff members putting together his video tribute saw pictures of men "engaging in clear affection, kissing and embracing."

Simons said the church believes homosexuality is a sin, and it would have appeared to endorse that lifestyle if the service had been held there.

"We did decline to host the service -- not based on hatred, not based on discrimination, but based on principle," Simons told The Associated Press. "Had we known it on the day they first spoke about it -- yes, we would have declined then. It's not that we didn't love the family."

Simons said the decision had nothing to do with the obituary. He said the church offered to pay for another site for the service, made the video and provided food for more than 100 relatives and friends.

"Even though we could not condone that lifestyle, we went above and beyond for the family through many acts of love and kindness," Simons said.

Wright called the church's claim about the pictures "a bold-faced lie." She said she provided numerous family pictures of Sinclair, including some with his partner, but said none showed men kissing or hugging.

The 5,000-member High Point Church was founded in 2000 by Simons and his wife, April, whose brother is Joel Osteen, well-known pastor of the 38,000-member Lakewood Church in Houston. Now High Point meets in a 432,000-square-foot facility in Arlington, near Dallas.

Wright said relatives declined the church's offer to hold the service at a community center because they felt it was an inappropriate venue. It ultimately was held at a funeral home, but the cancellation still lingered in some minds, she said.

[adrianblaine]

I love how they call themselves a "nondenominational" church :rolleyes:


I'm not quite sure what you mean by this or what it has to do with their decision.

It's got to be tough on his family and friends for loosing him at 46 due to an accidental infection, then the church refusing to hold his funeral is just plain awful.

[yg17]

Calling themselves nondenominational makes them look better than other churches, because lets face it, most churches don't think highly of people from other religions. But in reality, they aren't better than the rest. So they're nondenominational, big deal. They're still the same homophobic bigots like almost every other church

[adrianblaine]

They're still the same homophobic bigots like almost every other church

I don't take offense to a lot of things said by anyone because I believe in everyone's right to their own opinion, but your comment does irk me. I think you'd be (pleasantly) surprised at how many people (especially those 30 and younger) don't hold hateful views of people that don't believe the same thing as them.

And how does throwing insults back at a church make someone any different?

[mkrishnan]

Calling themselves nondenominational makes them look better than other churches, because lets face it, most churches don't think highly of people from other religions.

Nondenominational means something fairly specific in the Protestant world. It just means that they're not affiliated with a larger denominational body that has a specified creed or policies. Non-denominational churches span the gamut from very conservative/fundamentalist to very liberal, and generally people who have had contact with Protestantism don't particularly associate the term "non-denominational" with any particular set of views or attitudes. I think this is relatively well known.

The rest of the story is rather unfortunate, though. Poor family. And meh for politicization of funerals. :(

[yg17]

Nondenominational means something fairly specific in the Protestant world. It just means that they're not affiliated with a larger denominational body that has a specified creed or policies. Non-denominational churches span the gamut from very conservative/fundamentalist to very liberal, and generally people who have had contact with Protestantism don't particularly associate the term "non-denominational" with any particular set of views or attitudes. I think this is relatively well known.


Ah, OK. I had always thought nondenominational meant any religion (like a nondenominal church might hold a memorial service for a Jewish or Muslim person, vice versa with a synagoge or mosque). Regardless of the semantics, what they did is still 100% wrong

[skunk]

pictures of men "engaging in clear affection, kissing and embracing."Boy, they'd have a serious problem anywhere is South or Central America, Europe or Asia, and didn't Judas kiss Jesus on the cheek? "Engaging in clear affection" is a great circumlocution, isn't it? :D

[mactastic]

Boy, they'd have a serious problem anywhere is South or Central America, Europe or Asia, and didn't Judas kiss Jesus on the cheek? "Engaging in clear affection" is a great circumlocution, isn't it? :D
I guess this really steamed their beans then, eh?
http://noliberty.com/bandar-bush.jpg

[skunk]

I guess this really steamed their beans then, eh?
http://noliberty.com/bandar-bush.jpgAwww! :p

[mkrishnan]

Ah, OK. I had always thought nondenominational meant any religion

Ahhh, I gotcha, like interfaith or universalist. :)

P.S. Awww, that picture of President Bush and (?) Prince Bandar is cute. :)

[ham_man]

Ah, OK. I had always thought nondenominational meant any religion (like a nondenominal church might hold a memorial service for a Jewish or Muslim person, vice versa with a synagoge or mosque). Regardless of the semantics, what they did is still 100% wrong
Since you obviously know nothing about Christianity, what leads you to say that all Christians are homophobic bigots?

[bousozoku]

Since you obviously know nothing about Christianity, what leads you to say that all Christians are homophobic bigots?

The evangelists, most likely, since they're the face of Christianity to many people. They don't teach love and acceptance. They teach hate and bigotry. Christ would knock over a few of their tables, to be sure.

There are Christians who actually care about everyone but it's tough to find them. I don't think there are any living in Floriduh but at least, they hate all groups equally. :D

[Queso]

"We did decline to host the service -- not based on hatred, not based on discrimination, but based on principle,"
Yes. The Principle of Hatred and Discrimination :rolleyes:

[ghall]

It's things like this that make me detest religion. People have always told me that to truly understand the world I should practice a religion. Well, if it means being an insensitive @$$hole, then I think I'll pass. I rather like to define my own beliefs, not have them dictated by some guy who talks to God, and preaches "kindness" and other stuff. Bunch of hypocrites if you ask me.

[ham_man]

There are Christians who actually care about everyone but it's tough to find them.
Most of the Christians I have met are the most kind and caring people you could ever hope to imagine. I'm afraid that many opinions of Christians by non-Christians are being shaped by the evangelists, like you said, who are more intent upon forcing their views, political and otherwise, upon others than letting the love and message of Jesus Christ do it for them.

[bousozoku]

Most of the Christians I have met are the most kind and caring people you could ever hope to imagine. I'm afraid that many opinions of Christians by non-Christians are being shaped by the evangelists, like you said, who are more intent upon forcing their views, political and otherwise, upon others than letting the love and message of Jesus Christ do it for them.

I wish I could say the same.

I was one of the Christians who cared about everyone until I was told that it was wrong and that only Christians deserved kindness.

The more, different Christians I met, the worse I felt about the religion. I'm a member of the Presbyterian church and I've spent considerable time with the Baptists, Methodists, and Catholics and attended single services in other churches. The level of bigotry and hate drove me away.

Jesus Christ was apparently a very nice man, Messiah or not, who doesn't deserve the fanatics who use his name to support their cause.

[pengu]

The evangelists, most likely, since they're the face of Christianity to many people. They don't teach love and acceptance. They teach hate and bigotry. Christ would knock over a few of their tables, to be sure.

There are Christians who actually care about everyone but it's tough to find them. I don't think there are any living in Floriduh but at least, they hate all groups equally. :D


im not a christian. im not religious. i view religion about the same as casinos/gambling, and Windows : it's mostly a combination of lies and smoke 'n' mirrors; it will cost you a lot of money; and it involves a lot of praying (also called talking to yourself)

most religious people seem to be fairly nice, until its about something that their invisible friend in the sky APPARENTLY doesn't like.

one of my friends' father is very religious. he doesn't hate gays. he truly believes it's a DISEASE or a DISORDER.

[megfilmworks]

Lest we forget, that years ago, before it was PC, the Episcopal church was the first large church (Anglican) or organization, to openly support gays and lesbians as members of their congregation and later as ministers. Food for thought. Evangelicals get the attention, the good Christians don't yell, they do, by helping in any way they can, quietly.
At least the ones I have met.

[ham_man]

im not a christian. im not religious. i view religion about the same as casinos/gambling, and Windows : it's mostly a combination of lies and smoke 'n' mirrors; it will cost you a lot of money; and it involves a lot of praying (also called talking to yourself)

most religious people seem to be fairly nice, until its about something that their invisible friend in the sky APPARENTLY doesn't like.

one of my friends' father is very religious. he doesn't hate gays. he truly believes it's a DISEASE or a DISORDER.
You seem to have alot of hate for people who have alot of hate. It's cyclical isn't it?

[pengu]

You seem to have alot of hate for people who have alot of hate. It's cyclical isn't it?

hate? no i dont hate religious people. hate would mean that i think about them enough to care. and i dont hate my friends dad. i

[solvs]

They're still the same homophobic bigots like almost every other church
Not all of them are bad, and I wish people would stop saying this. It's makes us look as bad as those who say all Muslims are terrorists. It's the just the very vocal minority, and what seems like a majority from those that follow them.

That being said, knowing some of the more intense believers as I have, I understand why you feel that way.

It's things like this that make me detest religion.
Gandhi once said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians".

Most of the Christians I have met are the most kind and caring people you could ever hope to imagine.
Some, yes. Many, probably. But there's a lot of hatred out there that causes people to feel the way the above posters do. It also depends on your meaning of the terms kind and caring. I've known some otherwise great people who support very awful things, like the above.

And they certainly don't help their cause when the larger churches do this type of thing and their members not only are ok with it, but they fully support it.

You seem to have alot of hate for people who have alot of hate. It's cyclical isn't it?
There's a difference between the rational and the irrational. He dislikes them for a reason. Why do they dislike homosexuals? Even if they hate the sin, there is no excuse to hate the sinner as many very vocally do. Going out of their ways to deny them rights or even respect, and extending that to their families. See above.

[ham_man]

There's a difference between the rational and the irrational. He dislikes them for a reason. Why do they dislike homosexuals? Even if they hate the sin, there is no excuse to hate the sinner as many very vocally do. Going out of their ways to deny them rights or even respect, and extending that to their families. See above.
"Love the sinner, hate the sin."

Wait...are we in...*gasp*...agreement?! :eek: :p

[bousozoku]

im not a christian. im not religious. i view religion about the same as casinos/gambling, and Windows : it's mostly a combination of lies and smoke 'n' mirrors; it will cost you a lot of money; and it involves a lot of praying (also called talking to yourself)

most religious people seem to be fairly nice, until its about something that their invisible friend in the sky APPARENTLY doesn't like.

one of my friends' father is very religious. he doesn't hate gays. he truly believes it's a DISEASE or a DISORDER.

Religion itself isn't bad but it's the expression of religion that usually causes the problem. All the same, it seems that those religions based on the god of Abraham (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) seem to be more about hate and intolerance than any others, with the exception of Satanism perhaps.

Lest we forget, that years ago, before it was PC, the Episcopal church was the first large church (Anglican) or organization, to openly support gays and lesbians as members of their congregation and later as ministers. Food for thought. Evangelicals get the attention, the good Christians don't yell, they do, by helping in any way they can, quietly.
At least the ones I have met.

You're right, but allowing wrong by being quiet is nearly as good as standing with the people doing the wrong.

[obeygiant]

All the same, it seems that those religions based on the god of Abraham (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) seem to be more about hate and intolerance than any others, with the exception of Satanism perhaps.


None of those religions are "about" hate and intolerance. Not even Satanism.
Only twisted and extreme versions of those religions deal out hate, and they are a pretty small percentage.

This thread is pretty interesting. It seems those who only have a superficial understanding of religion are vehemently against it.

[grafikat]

Gandhi once said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians".

Do you think Christ would have stopped the service if this revelation had been made? If the idea is to become Christ-like, then these people have really missed the message.

I believe in faith. I do not believe in Religion. I keep thinking of the words to "Cathedral" by CSNY
Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here
Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call.
So many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all.

[63dot]

I wonder if Jesus went around deciding who to help based on their personal choices? Did he say he wouldn't heal that sick person because they were gay? or a non-Jew? or a woman? or a Pharisee? or from a certain social class?

One can disagree with homosexuality as a church in its policy, but how does it look to others if they decline on a service for that same reason? How would a doctor in ER look if he didn't attend to a patient because they were gay?

We should hold our churches, like our doctors, and like Christ, to a higher standard free of hate and bigotry.

[bousozoku]

None of those religions are "about" hate and intolerance. Not even Satanism.
Only twisted and extreme versions of those religions deal out hate, and they are a pretty small percentage.

This thread is pretty interesting. It seems those who only have a superficial understanding of religion are vehemently against it.

Of course, they are, because that's how the religious act upon their faith.

Considering how many churches I've attended and how many wonderful things I'd been taught by Christians, it's no wonder I believe that Christianity is about hate and intolerance. Actions speak louder than words.

[yg17]

Satanism doesn't really teach hate. The Satanic bible claims that hate is a natural human emotion, and therefore, it's OK to hate someone for their actions that have offended you (and I don't think being gay is considered a valid action) but that it shouldn't be applied universally to a group of people or all of mankind. Unlike other religions which claim that a certain group of people are sinners or are going to burn in hell or whatever.

Judiasm doesn't teach it either. I was brought up in a Jewish household and spent something like 10 years in Sunday school. Yeah, I couldn't stand it, and I'm anything but religious now, but not once do I remember it teaching hate or teaching us that a certain group are sinners. I know the temple my parents go to has no problem doing gay marriages, and they have a very close relationship with one of the Islamic mosques here (not bad for 2 religions that are at war on the other side of the world, eh?). The rabbis are very accepting of other religions and beliefs

I don't know enough about Islam to make a statement either way, but the few Muslims I know have no problem with anybody of any religion, race, sexual orientation, etc.

[A Pittarelli]

thats crazy, but churches have been teaching hate for years.

[obeygiant]

Of course, they are, because that's how the religious act upon their faith.

Okay, well, I think you're wrong. Religion is not about hate and intolerance. Its news to me that followers use those things to "act upon their religion."


Considering how many churches I've attended and how many wonderful things I'd been taught by Christians, it's no wonder I believe that Christianity is about hate and intolerance. Actions speak louder than words.

You've gone from the big three religions down to just Christianity. I mean, its fine to reject all religions or just christianity. Go ahead. To me it seems a little irrational to say that about christianity or any religion.

[solvs]

"Love the sinner, hate the sin."

Wait...are we in...*gasp*...agreement?! :eek: :p
Probably not. I don't think homosexuality is a sin. Just pointing out those who aren't even following their own rules.

None of those religions are "about" hate and intolerance.

Only twisted and extreme versions of those religions deal out hate, and they are a pretty small percentage.
Try telling that to some of the posters here because, based on what they see, they don't believe us when we say that.

Its news to me that followers use those things to "act upon their religion."
I'd say it was the opposite, where they're hiding behind religion to justify their feelings and actions.

[bousozoku]

Okay, well, I think you're wrong. Religion is not about hate and intolerance. Its news to me that followers use those things to "act upon their religion."

You've gone from the big three religions down to just Christianity. I mean, its fine to reject all religions or just christianity. Go ahead. To me it seems a little irrational to say that about christianity or any religion.

I wish I were wrong and it's not everyone calling themselves Christians but a significant number of people do this and they're not just from one church but from all churches I've encountered.

I can only single out Christianity from those three because it's the only one I've experienced in detail over an extended period of time. You think I'm being irrational but Christ would ask to have the religions named something else based on how people act, had he seen all I'd seen.

Muslims and Jews I've known are generally very peaceful but they're just as bigoted as the other groups following that god.

[leekohler]

This is awful. I wonder- would this church deny an adulterer a memorial service? I thought all "sins" were the same. Apparently, this one is just too terrible. :rolleyes:

obeygiant- this is exactly why a lot of us left our respecvtive churches and religions. I was raised a Methodist, and I've never seen a nastier, more judgemental bunch of people in my life. I know all religious people aren't that way, but I still want nothing to do with it.

[Ugg]

This thread is pretty interesting. It seems those who only have a superficial understanding of religion are vehemently against it.

No, it's those who've been abused by religion who are vehemently against it.

When the religion, especially xians, go against christ's teachings, it's sort of hard to be sympathetic to their hypocrisy.

[megfilmworks]

Religion is a man made construct, spirituality is from beyond man's understanding.

[imac/cheese]

This is awful. I wonder- would this church deny an adulterer a memorial service? I thought all "sins" were the same. Apparently, this one is just too terrible. :rolleyes:

I was thinking the exact same thing when i first read this article. They would probably still have had the service of an adulterer, but I doubt they would have had a slide show with pictures of the deceased with the woman he cheated on his wife with. However, I am sure that the church would have had a service for a divorced man who put away his first wife in an unbiblical manner and then remarried (thus committing adultery according to the bible) and even shown pictures of him with his new wife. According to the Bible both are sins, but the church seems to overlook one and focus on the other.

We all sin. I do not see a problem of "principle" with hosting a service of a gay man. Now if the man was not a Christian, I can see the church refusing to hold the service. The article does not mention whether or not he was a Christian.

[imac/cheese]

Religion is a man made construct, spirituality is from beyond man's understanding.

I find this an interesting quote. Religion is only "man-made" if you believe that God did not make it. Christians that believe the Bible do not think that the Bible is man-made; we believe that all Scripture has been breathed out by God himself. He instructed us how to be religious.

I think that most religions believe that their religious ceremonies are inspired by God, so it is really only the non-believers that see religion as being man-made.

[solvs]

obeygiant- this is exactly why a lot of us left our respecvtive churches and religions.

No, it's those who've been abused by religion who are vehemently against it.
This is why I left the church, but it didn't change my beliefs. Not religions' fault it's followers use it to justify their idiocy and hypocrisy. Nor that the religious leaders and politicians use it for money and power, while their followers choose to go along with them for whatever reason.

And again, I hesitate to call it the norm because while many seem deluded, as I said above, it seems just as wrong as those who decry all Muslims because of their vocal minority.

[obeygiant]

And again, I hesitate to call it the norm because while many seem deluded, as I said above, it seems just as wrong as those who decry all Muslims because of their vocal minority.

ding ding ding! :)

[63dot]

thats crazy, but churches have been teaching hate for years.

a lot of terrible things have been done in the name of christ, historically

what i do when i read the bible, which is several times a week, is to discern the "red" letters of jesus' own words vs. the commentary and history that is what is most of the bible

and the history of the church, orthodox, protestant and catholic, often looks like a lot of the violence and mayhem one sees in the bible, especially the old testament

everything, including good deeds, bad deeds, hatred, forgiveness, adultry, love, passion, healing, acts of the apostles, etc is mentioned in the bible and while some of it may not seem christ-like, much of the bible is human history as recorded by humans in their own literary styles

but anyway i slice it, i don't see jesus as being a bigot against homosexuals, whether one argues he accepted the lifestyle or was against it

i don't see where there is any place in the bible where jesus is a bigot against anybody, or that he would teach bigotry as a cornerstone of the church

you could take 100 christians and list the sins of man, from worst to least, and place them in order, if the person believes there is any sort of sin heiarchy, and no two lists would be identical

it seems to be the political times, and bashing gays, that is more of a popular trend of late, especially on a hot button political issue like gay marriage...which 8 states have ratified under the banner of states' rights against the wishes of the gop, the original states' rights party

[CalBoy]

I wonder if Jesus went around deciding who to help based on their personal choices? Did he say he wouldn't heal that sick person because they were gay? or a non-Jew? or a woman? or a Pharisee? or from a certain social class?
Actually, Jesus was very kind to those around him. He even caught a lot of flack for helping prostitutes with their problems. You have to remember though, that people like Jesus, Ghandi, MLK, etc, generally make powerful enemies. Ideas like equality and tolerance don't sit well with the majority of society when the right in question challenges a sitting paradigm. Example: 150 years ago, slaves were denied rights. For that time period, the idea of giving black males their freedom was a major paradigm shift. In the modern day, gay marriage and rights are serving as the next issue we will wrestle with. We haven't learned very much from our past, for we will repeat the same mistakes again and again. Each time something challenges our very fragile view of life, we react in alarm. Civilization may have changed over the past 2007(or thereabouts) years, but human nature is most definitely the same.


We should hold our churches, like our doctors, and like Christ, to a higher standard free of hate and bigotry.

I'm friends with a Catholic priest (despite the fact that I'm an atheist), and he's very understanding. I've never heard him express any kind of hatred or bigotry. If you think about it, I must upset his religious faith more than a gay person. Yet he understood why I believe what I believe, and didn't express hate towards me. I don't think your perception of religious practitioners is accurate.

[solvs]

ding ding ding! :)

See, I'm not a partisan hack.

[63dot]

I'm friends with a Catholic priest (despite the fact that I'm an atheist), and he's very understanding. I've never heard him express any kind of hatred or bigotry. If you think about it, I must upset his religious faith more than a gay person. Yet he understood why I believe what I believe, and didn't express hate towards me. I don't think your perception of religious practitioners is accurate.

religious practitioners come in all forms

from what i have seen with christians, you are right in that most of them are very tolerant people

it's just that vocal, and highly publicized minority, that gets the headlines with their taliban-like intolerance and their sometimes blind devotion to george w bush

being a fundamentalist by definition, but a democrat on almost every issue, thus being a member of the democratic party, i cannot stand the christians who try and polarize the issues as if they were religious

they often talk tough but have never put their butts on the line to carry their cross...i challenge any one of them to come with me to belfast northern ireland on a missionary trip...or to the ghettos in northern california

my guess is that they would last, personally and faithfully, for about ten seconds :)