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jazzman45
Aug 3, 2003, 03:22 AM
To begin, this is merely out of frustration and in many ways contradicts my love for Apple products. Unfortunately, I feel this is necessary.

I just got my 12" Powerbook, and nearly everyting is perfect. "Nearly" only because the heat is, at times, unbearable. Personally, I don't think this is what we payed for when we bought our Powerbooks.

I want to begin a thread here to see what kind of interest there is for A) a recall; B) Trade-in/Trade-up program for 12" owners to get a cooler 12" powerbook for perhaps $300-$400 (including hdd copy, and equal ram as was purchased from Apple); or C) CPU upgrade if possible and would solve heat problems.

Personally, I would like a $300 trade-in program, as Apple would be doing a favor, but all the while fixing a problem they have created.

The official response from Apple is as follows "The PowerBook G4 (12-inch) computer complies with the safety standard for Safety of Information Technology Equipment, IEC 60950..." My understanding is that when I bought an Apple product, it wouldn't simply adhere to safety standards but exceed them.

Please give me your thoughts, experiences, etc. The only good thing to come of the heat problem for me is in the winter when the heat craps out at my dorm.

Also, I am planning to use www.petitiononline.com as the host, and I would gladly do the write-up, if there is enough interest.

Finally, don't bother to reply if you're just going to add some stupid speculation on the MPC7457, I'm addressing what I feel is a real problem and I don't want the message diluted with people that are looking for a cheap upgrade.

Thanks for reading this far,
Tyler Gatewood

legion
Aug 3, 2003, 04:03 AM
I noted that you said that you just got your 12" PB and I have a question (by which I mean no offense)...

Were you unaware of these issues before buying the PB or had you just expected that other users had blown this out of proportion? Almost from day one of the introduction of the 12" PB, there have been notes and posts by forum users and review sites about the extreme heat produced by the 12" PB. If you're still within the 10days that you can return the PB, I would go ahead and do so.

On the other hand, I do agree that the 12" PB should never have been placed on the market as it is and should have been immediately recalled. However, I also feel the same for the 14" iBook with its faulty logic boards (I just spent today trying to convince an owner of a 14" iBook to get it repaired again for the third time by Apple. It's only 3 months old and he is so fed up with the iBook that he doesn't care anymore--I'm encouraging him to get it fixed once more and then sell it off since Apple refuses to make amends.)

Good luck with your petition.

tazo
Aug 3, 2003, 04:15 AM
Although I agree one could consider the heat associated with the 12'' pb to be an issue, resorting to an online petition is hardly the way to cause apple to be shakin in their boots.

chewbaccapits
Aug 3, 2003, 04:41 AM
Tazo...Is there a better way?

I agree, way to ***** hot.....I will sign...I'm burning my left wrist as I type...

BTW, not everyone KNOWS about certain issues with hardware, I know thta I didn't when I bought the 12 incher....So what can a consumer do after the fact? It is frustrating....

legion
Aug 3, 2003, 05:10 AM
There's only three things that I can think of that would result in any solutions:

1) Call in to Apple Customer Relations and keep complaining and asking for each manager until you reach a VP. Be firm and steadfast (and polite/calm) with the issue and make it clear that it is not a subjective opinion but an objective fact that makes the item unusable. Also, record the conversations for documentation.

2) Publicize the issue in mainstream media. Many large markets have television stations that use investigative journalists that will exploit the issue. In Los Angeles I can think of two stations that would jump on this issue. Bad publicity is something that every company wishes to avoid and reporters will probably show "undeniable proof" of how faulty the item is (can you imagine a temp guage displaying the outside working temperature of the 12"PB and then an Apple Exec saying that it is completely acceptable and normal--- it would seem preposterous) Most likely Reuters or the A.P. will pick up on the story. Even the threat of bad press may help the situation in option #1 from above (but always with a calm tone.)

3) Class action lawsuit. This one could get kind of messy, but between the bad publicity and a very clear case to win (the law tends to side with consumers in cases where a product clearly can harm consumers and the fact that Apple refuses to acknowledge this as an issue and continues to sell the product, there could be punitive damages) I'm sure a consumer-advocacy group could direct you to a lawyer who'd work pro-bono.


All of these will see results over a petition that is buried on the internet. I worked for a company with much larger revenues than Apple and we would always rather just settle things quitely (even when we were in the right-- which was most of the time) than deal with bad publicity. It's a fact of business--especially if you are touting your company as the consumer-friendly sort.

cb911
Aug 3, 2003, 06:08 AM
i don't want to get anyone angry or anything, but... why didn't you test one out in the shop? you could have to them to load WC III and then run that for about 15 minutes and then seen that it had gotten hot.

i don't understand why there are heaps of people saying how hot they are, yet even more go out and buy one, then they complain how hot it is. i'm not saying that it's OK they run so hot, but what did you expect with all that stuff crammed into such a small package? :confused:

visor
Aug 3, 2003, 08:11 AM
I've just checked what I could find on
IEC 60950 , and it wasn't much.
The real spec is ~$300 so I don't care to look at that right now ;)
In gernerlterms I found this:
http://www.i-spec.com/IEC_60950/heating_test.html

But it's quite unprecise on mesurement methods etc.

One could try to make an infrared analysis while - say gaming, which can be considered normal operations for a PB. Just threatening to do do such an analysis should take you right up to decision makes when calling at apple support.
Now, another thing you can do - if you're american - is actually burn your leg, and sue Apple for a couple of billion bucks.
From my experience - all of this is not really neccessary if you decide to return a product that doesn't meet your requirements to apple.
We've done it once, with a 1gig PB. The fan was so noisy that working was just about impossible. We just got our money back, and that was it.
(don't know if it helped that we have extremely good relations to a couple of very big national broadcasters or not)

Kwyjibo
Aug 3, 2003, 09:41 AM
I"m gonna get flamed for this, but I"m getting a 12" powerbook and I was at Bestbuy. They had the 12" iBook and the 12" Powerbook ext to each other and I started to feel them and the iBook was hotter than the powerbook. They were both plugged in but I'm really not sure what everyone is complaining about....the iBook was hotter in my unscientific test.

MacManDan
Aug 3, 2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Kwyjibo
I"m gonna get flamed for this, but I"m getting a 12" powerbook and I was at Bestbuy. They had the 12" iBook and the 12" Powerbook ext to each other and I started to feel them and the iBook was hotter than the powerbook. They were both plugged in but I'm really not sure what everyone is complaining about....the iBook was hotter in my unscientific test.

I agree. I've used both the 12" iBook and 12" PowerBook, and the iBook seemed to get significantly hotter for the same tasks. I also don't know what anyone is complaining about. I think a petition for money back on a laptop that's not even the hottest on the line is a bit extreme. Seems pretty ridiculous to me.

tjwett
Aug 3, 2003, 11:10 AM
i'd sign this petetion for sure, although i'm not sure it would help us. still, there is no harm in trying. the heat from my 12" PowerBook is really getting to be a problem. i'm actually typing this from an old Wintel in my parent's house because the PowerBook got too hot to use, again. :(

Mellie
Aug 3, 2003, 11:20 AM
When I was in the store comparing the 12" powerbook with the 12" iBook, deciding which one to get...heat was not an issue. I had read the posts about the 12" powerbook being very hot so I tested it in the store. In fact, the iBook was much hotter than the powerbook. I now have a 12" iBook and it does get pretty hot..but I don't really care. It's a freaking computer, it's not going to get cold! And I'm not begging for my money back either. What a stupid way to try to get money!

NavyIntel007
Aug 3, 2003, 12:55 PM
Quit crying, it's not that bad.:cool:

pianojoe
Aug 3, 2003, 01:19 PM
I recently upgraded my 12" iBook to a 12" PB. Yes, the PB gets hotter, but, hey, it's a computer. Computers produce heat and use fans to get rid of the heat.

What you need is a firmware hack or so to make the fan kick in earlier. Kinda trade-off silence vs. heat.

BTW, you can always ;-)

- wear a pyjama

- have the blanket between your chest and your notebook.

Daveman Deluxe
Aug 3, 2003, 01:20 PM
Welcome to the world of the consumer. Your petiton will not get Apple to make a cooler 12" PowerBook. Furthermore, this is a known issue with these computers. The design meets the safety specifications, which are often set artificially low anyway.

Don't you think that if Apple could produce a cooler laptop, they would? Apple does the best it can at the price it's getting for these computers. Perhaps you'd like Apple to install a water-cooling system?

IT'S A BLOODY LAPTOP. To keep a laptop small, dead space in the design has to be kept to a minimum. As a result, it is difficult to move air through the case. Instead, the laptop relies on conduction to remove heat from the case. It's the only way to get a reasonably small laptop that dissipates heat well enough to be operable. The 12" feels hot because it has a smaller footprint with which to conduct heat.

If you really want a cool laptop, slap a peltier cooler on the bottom or something--then watch as your battery dies half an hour later. The fact is that right now, the 12" PowerBook is as cool as it reasonably gets.

Lastly, why would Apple give YOU money to make a cooler laptop when it would cost Apple MORE money to produce it?

Sun Baked
Aug 3, 2003, 01:43 PM
If Apple offer you a machine with less heat, you'd ask for...

A higher RPM drive (not always faster) = MORE heat

More MHz = MORE heat

More memory = MORE heat

L3 cache = MORE heat

Less frequent use of fan = MORE heat

DVD burners/More x = MORE heat

More built-in features = MORE heat

For less money... :rolleyes:

Why don't you just make a Petition about the PB12 being too big and lacking a flip-fold screen to turn it into a Tablet-PC?

Vector
Aug 3, 2003, 02:07 PM
I am sure that apple will head your wishes immediatly.

They are probably completely unaware of this problem and i am sure that they will be overflowing with thanks to you for pointing the problem out to them.

How could they have missed such a big problem? Ives and all of the people in engineering and R&D are probably sitting around completely ignoring this heat problem. Why dont we all sign this petition that they will probably be aware of right away and dash off our emails to them since surely they do not yet know of the problem.

Ok enough of that.

I understand that you and the others are very upset about the heat problem, but a petition and emails to apple get you nowhere. It is highly likely that apple has been working on this problem since they first released the 12" powerbook. Apple is not just going to go "Oh look here are all of these signatures on this petition, maybe we should be working on this heat problem. I can't believe we have not heard about this problem before".

Tommy!
Aug 3, 2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Quit crying, it's not that bad.:cool:
Seriously... With all do respect, shut up. The Powerbook is a light, fast, elegant and speedy machine. If you want something cool on your lap, buy an ice pack.

NavyIntel007
Aug 3, 2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Tommy!
Seriously... With all do respect, shut up. The Powerbook is a light, fast, elegant and speedy machine. If you want something cool on your lap, buy an ice pack.

Perhaps you've never put an HP laptop on your lap. Not only does it weigh 8 lbs, run windows, made of cheap plastic, and is much larger but it's much warmer too.

Seriously people, Apple did some trade offs to drop the size and increase the speed. Unlike PC laptops that are almost empty inside because it just about needs a wind tunnel to cool it, Apple uses the skin of the laptop to cool the machine down. If your machine isn't freezing up every 5 seconds or has fried itself, I'm sorry, but you don't have a case.

jxyama
Aug 3, 2003, 02:50 PM
yawn. useless...

i'm fine with mine. i'm sorry you have a problem, but you should deal with it as you see fit. i, for one, will not be taking part in supporting any of your (utterly ridiculous) suggestions because i don't have the same issue.

if this sounds personal, that's because it partially is. i've heard this so often, i'm sick of it. i'm not going to excuse apple for making a laptop that runs hot for some people, some of the time. but i've heard it all before and i'm rather sick of it.

sorry.

[edit] ok, i don't want to sound like an arse up there, but i really have heard all of it, ever since i got mine back in early feb. needless to say, online petition is useless and to suggest that apple offer some sort of upgrade option simply doesn't make sense. the conclusion i'm finding with 12" is that instead of being encased in a plastic case to mask the heat, apple decided to dissipate the heat by making the entire casing a large heat sink. yes, it does get hot once in a while, but never too hot to render the machine useless - that is my experience. perhaps better dissipation of heat may prolong the life of components inside, who knows. try your best to find a way to get use out of it... that's the best bet. otherwise, sorry to say, you should sell your machine because none of your suggestions will come true, i'm afraid. [\edit]

ZildjianKX
Aug 3, 2003, 03:05 PM
If you manage to burn yourself with it, you could probably sue and maybe get a recall...

NavyIntel007
Aug 3, 2003, 03:49 PM
Here's another thought to ponder...

When you use your laptop


WEAR CLOTHES!!!!