PDA

View Full Version : Teachers are bad luck in space


johnee
Aug 13, 2007, 11:53 AM
is it just me or has the presence of a teacher on a spacecraft been associated with problems?

The first teacher died in the first space shuttle explosion, and now her backup is potentially in peril as the heat shield has been damaged.

After many, many months of investigation, analysis, and modifications to the foam, the shuttle gets a major ding NOW, when a teacher is on board.

Nasa should play it safe and leave teachers on the ground, just in case.

elfin buddy
Aug 13, 2007, 12:46 PM
Don't be so foolish. It's only a minor scratch and won't cause any problems. The last shuttle go to up before this one had a much more serious problem (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070611/atlantis_houston_070611/20070611/). :rolleyes:

mrkramer
Aug 13, 2007, 12:49 PM
I think that this happens all the time, just after columbia blew up because of it they have been more careful and found the damage almost every time.

obeygiant
Aug 13, 2007, 12:50 PM
Nasa should play it safe and leave teachers on the ground, just in case.

Teachers+outer space=bad news.

johnee
Aug 13, 2007, 12:52 PM
actually its not a minor scratch, it's a hole which goes all the way to the aluminum frame.

let's just say if i was an astronaut and a teacher was on my flight, i would ask them if they didn't mind sitting this one out.

actually, i did apply to the astronaut program. there was a rare period where nasa put the application process on line. I think people like me took advantage of it (I was still in college at the time which made me instantly disqualified) because they stopped putting the apps on line. But I did it anyway to get the rejection letter, which I proudly display in my office :D

Warbrain
Aug 13, 2007, 12:55 PM
This is not something minor. This probably would cause the shuttle to burn up upon re-entry. Don't be surprised if you hear of the spacewalk being done to repair the tiles.

elfin buddy
Aug 13, 2007, 01:02 PM
actually its not a minor scratch, it's a hole which goes all the way to the aluminum frame.

let's just say if i was an astronaut and a teacher was on my flight, i would ask them if they didn't mind sitting this one out.

actually, i did apply to the astronaut program. there was a rare period where nasa put the application process on line. I think people like me took advantage of it (I was still in college at the time which made me instantly disqualified) because they stopped putting the apps on line. But I did it anyway to get the rejection letter, which I proudly display in my office :D

To quote the chairman of the mission management team, John Shannon:

"We have really prepared for exactly this case, since Columbia," Shannon said. "We have spent a lot of money in the program and a lot of time and a lot of people's efforts to be ready to handle exactly this case." Shannon went on to say, "It's a little bit of a concern to us because this seems to be something that has happened frequently."

It's no big deal and you are being alarmist in suggesting otherwise. I'm glad NASA's astronaut programme is so selective in choosing astronauts, or else astronauts would spend all their time chewing their nails and bickering over superstition. Nothing would ever get done.

MacNut
Aug 13, 2007, 01:34 PM
Just wish they did a better job in choosing administrators the same was they choose astronauts.

johnee
Aug 13, 2007, 01:44 PM
To quote the chairman of the mission management team, John Shannon:

"We have really prepared for exactly this case, since Columbia," Shannon said. "We have spent a lot of money in the program and a lot of time and a lot of people's efforts to be ready to handle exactly this case." Shannon went on to say, "It's a little bit of a concern to us because this seems to be something that has happened frequently."

It's no big deal and you are being alarmist in suggesting otherwise. I'm glad NASA's astronaut programme is so selective in choosing astronauts, or else astronauts would spend all their time chewing their nails and bickering over superstition. Nothing would ever get done.

I'm reading "Failure Is Not An Option" by Eugene Kranz who was a flight controller/director for the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo missions. It's an excellent book and provides blow-by-blow details on mission control for most flights.

The thing I realized while reading it was how different NASA is today vs. the early days. Many of the early missions were "adventurous" to say the least, but one thing he always pointed to was the fact that all mission planners/controllers/directors were on top of their game every second of the mission. The risks they took back then were only possible because of those people. NASA doesn't seem to be like that anymore.

Macnut is right, administrators (and congress) have torn NASA apart. Adding teachers to the mix only makes things worse! They're bad luck! :D

Kamera RAWr
Aug 13, 2007, 02:04 PM
Please, let us not throw luck into science ;):p

EricNau
Aug 13, 2007, 04:23 PM
That is absurd. There are so many flaws in that argument that I wouldn't even know where to begin.

johnee
Aug 13, 2007, 04:27 PM
That is absurd. There are so many flaws in that argument that I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Its not an argument, its a spooky feeling.

but statistically, each time a teach has gone up something dreadful has happened. that's a 100% correlation.

SkyBell
Aug 13, 2007, 05:15 PM
This just means the shuttle's era is over. They've had problems almost everytime since columbia. I think it's time to put the shuttle down.

MacNut
Aug 13, 2007, 05:28 PM
This just means the shuttle's era is over. They've had problems almost everytime since columbia. I think it's time to put the shuttle down.They can't do that until the ISS is finished, plus they don't have the replacement craft built yet.

evilgEEk
Aug 13, 2007, 05:35 PM
The thing I realized while reading it was how different NASA is today vs. the early days. ...

Public interest isn't there anymore either. Back in the early days whenever there was a launch people all over the country would tune in and watch it. The launches were big national events. Nowadays they're just footnotes, the public just doesn't care about it as much as they used to.

This just means the shuttle's era is over. They've had problems almost everytime since columbia. I think it's time to put the shuttle down.

I absolutely agree. It's sad, but I think it's time NASA took a couple decades (and a few billion dollars:rolleyes:) and came up with a new space craft design.

EDIT

They can't do that until the ISS is finished, plus they don't have the replacement craft built yet.

Do they have a new design already? I didn't think they had decided on one. I guess that shows the level of my interest. :o

bousozoku
Aug 13, 2007, 05:40 PM
Just wish they did a better job in choosing administrators the same was they choose astronauts.

Maybe, they should hold contractors and sub-contractors to higher standards and make certain that the heat shield tiles are stronger than the foam on the fuel tanks. I'm surprised that they didn't have some kind of flexible container around the fuel tanks, in order to keep fracturing foam away from the shuttle.

They've finally decided to build the equivalent of a car port to keep hail away from a shuttle at the launch area.

SteveG4Cube
Aug 13, 2007, 06:09 PM
I'm glad NASA's astronaut programme is so selective in choosing astronauts.

Obviously (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/06/astronaut.arrested/index.html) :p

MacNut
Aug 14, 2007, 01:11 AM
Do they have a new design already? I didn't think they had decided on one. I guess that shows the level of my interest. :ohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_%28spacecraft%29Orion is a spacecraft design currently under development by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA). Each Orion spacecraft will carry a crew of four to six astronauts, and will be launched by the new Ares I launch vehicle. Both Orion and Ares I are elements of NASA's Project Constellation, which plans to send human explorers back to the Moon by 2020, and then onward to Mars and other destinations in the solar system.[1][2] On August 31, 2006, NASA awarded Lockheed Martin (LM) the contract to design, develop, and build Orion.[3]
Orion will launch from the same launch complex at Kennedy Space Center that currently launches the Space Shuttle. NASA will use Orion spacecraft for its human spaceflight missions after the last Shuttle orbiter is retired in 2010. Orion will initially handle logistic flights to the International Space Station starting at the end of 2014 or beginning of 2015, and after that it will become a key component of missions to the Moon and Mars.

EricNau
Aug 14, 2007, 03:22 AM
This is not something minor. This probably would cause the shuttle to burn up upon re-entry. Don't be surprised if you hear of the spacewalk being done to repair the tiles.
NASA feels differently. John Shannon, chairman of the mission management team:

“This is not a 'catastrophic loss of orbiter' case at all. This is a case where you want to do the prudent thing for the vehicle."

"The damage is benign enough for Endeavour to fly safely home; it’s more a matter of avoiding extensive post-flight repairs to any possible structural damage."

Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20242321/)

elfin buddy
Aug 14, 2007, 07:54 AM
Its not an argument, its a spooky feeling.

A "spooky feeling", you say? Is that anything like a gut feeling (http://youtube.com/watch?v=OBRKPoAPXEQ)?

but statistically, each time a teach has gone up something dreadful has happened. that's a 100% correlation.

Statistically, you have a sample size of two, and only one of them resulted in something dreadful. But clearly, you already have your mind made up.

MacFan25863
Aug 14, 2007, 12:25 PM
This is not something minor. This probably would cause the shuttle to burn up upon re-entry. Don't be surprised if you hear of the spacewalk being done to repair the tiles.

Before Columbia, things like this happened all the time, and nothing was done to fix them. And out of over 100 missions, all of them (with the exception of Columbia) were able to enter the atmosphere without trouble. It's only now that we are actually searching for these cracks and dents...on earlier missions there was damage MUCH worse than this with no problem at all.

In the early days of the shuttle, strips of tile literally would fall off during launch and yet they still came home safe. Saying this scratch would bring down the shuttle is a HUGE exaggeration.

By the way, for your viewing pleasure...
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/2100/img0998kw6.th.jpg (http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0998kw6.jpg)
(Me with Endeavour the night before launch last week :cool: )

johnee
Aug 14, 2007, 12:32 PM
Before Columbia, things like this happened all the time, and nothing was done to fix them. And out of over 100 missions, all of them (with the exception of Columbia) were able to enter the atmosphere without trouble. It's only now that we are actually searching for these cracks and dents...on earlier missions there was damage MUCH worse than this with no problem at all.

In the early days of the shuttle, strips of tile literally would fall off during launch and yet they still came home safe. Saying this scratch would bring down the shuttle is a HUGE exaggeration.

I understand your point and you are completely correct wrt/ historical missions and the attitude taken by NASA about them.

However we do have the glaring fact that 7 (?) astronauts died as a result of damaged tiles.

The question is: when tile damage occurs, is it the lethal kind or not? Without definitive studies showing what type/location of tile damage leads to hull integrity deterioration, all tile damage situations must be treated as if they will lead to it.

it's sad that many talented people had to die for tile damage to be taken seriously.

A "spooky feeling", you say? Is that anything like a gut feeling (http://youtube.com/watch?v=OBRKPoAPXEQ)?



Statistically, you have a sample size of two, and only one of them resulted in something dreadful. But clearly, you already have your mind made up.

a spooky feeling is completely different than a gut feeling. its like a ghost is sitting right next to you shouting and screaming future events right into your ear.

jczubach
Aug 14, 2007, 12:36 PM
Yeah, and mobile home trailer parks attract tornados.
I say let the astronauts drink, it works for the russians.;)

imac/cheese
Aug 14, 2007, 12:38 PM
The question is: when tile damage occurs, is it the lethal kind or not? Without definitive studies showing what type/location of tile damage leads to hull integrity deterioration, all tile damage situations must be treated as if they will lead to it.

That is why they pay engineers to assess the damage and make an engineering decision as to whether or not they need to fix the tiles before returning. They do not need definitive studies into all possible situations in order to make sound judgements about damage and safety.

elfin buddy
Aug 14, 2007, 12:54 PM
Before Columbia, things like this happened all the time, and nothing was done to fix them. And out of over 100 missions, all of them (with the exception of Columbia) were able to enter the atmosphere without trouble. It's only now that we are actually searching for these cracks and dents...on earlier missions there was damage MUCH worse than this with no problem at all.

In the early days of the shuttle, strips of tile literally would fall off during launch and yet they still came home safe. Saying this scratch would bring down the shuttle is a HUGE exaggeration.

By the way, for your viewing pleasure...
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/2100/img0998kw6.th.jpg (http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0998kw6.jpg)
(Me with Endeavour the night before launch last week :cool: )

Ah, so you were there for the launch too? How far did you travel for it? I road tripped all the way from Montreal to see it, haha. My job hooked my friends and I up with launch passes and tours of the KSC, so we had a great time. We got to the 600-ft barrier the day before the launch and got some great shots of Endeavour on the pad, even though the shuttle itself was still in its protective housing.

a spooky feeling is completely different than a gut feeling. its like a ghost is sitting right next to you shouting and screaming future events right into your ear.

Yep, that's pretty creepy. I think you should see a psychologist if there are ghosts screaming in your ear and telling the future. :p

MacFan25863
Aug 14, 2007, 01:04 PM
I understand your point and you are completely correct wrt/ historical missions and the attitude taken by NASA about them.

However we do have the glaring fact that 7 (?) astronauts died as a result of damaged tiles.

The question is: when tile damage occurs, is it the lethal kind or not? Without definitive studies showing what type/location of tile damage leads to hull integrity deterioration, all tile damage situations must be treated as if they will lead to it.

it's sad that many talented people had to die for tile damage to be taken seriously.

While I agree that this is a serious issue, I believe the news media is hyping it up way more than it needs to be. The damage to Columbia was on the leading edge of the wing, an area that experiences huge amounts of thermal pressure on reentry. Additionally, the area of Columbia which was struck is made out of composite materials, and is different than the tile on the bottom of the ship. I have full faith in the engineers working on the shuttle to make a decision that is best for both the ship and the crew - no one at NASA (esp. after Columbia) wants to see ANYTHING bad happen, and they all take their jobs very seriously.


Ah, so you were there for the launch too? How far did you travel for it? I road tripped all the way from Montreal to see it, haha. My job hooked my friends and I up with launch passes and tours of the KSC, so we had a great time. We got to the 600-ft barrier the day before the launch and got some great shots of Endeavour on the pad, even though the shuttle itself was still in its protective housing.


I came from Los Angeles...I was on one of the VIP tours too (I managed to snag an invite from NASA HQ)! There were actually some people on my bus from Montreal...do you happen to remember what bus you were on, or who your tour guide was?

jczubach
Aug 14, 2007, 01:06 PM
hey J., methinks your tinfoil hat is too tight, please adjust your set...:p

elfin buddy
Aug 14, 2007, 01:16 PM
I came from Los Angeles...I was on one of the VIP tours too (I managed to snag an invite from NASA HQ)! There were actually some people on my bus from Montreal...do you happen to remember what bus you were on, or who your tour guide was?

Congrats on the invite from NASA HQ! How did you swing that?

I work for the Canadian Space Agency, so everyone here gets invitations to every launch. This one was especially big for us because one of our astronauts (Dave Williams) went up for his second flight. There were several hundred people affiliated with the CSA who attended the launch, so we had a whole lot of busses, haha.

I was on the Causeway B bus, and our tour guide was actually a NASA engineer working on the Constellation/Orion project. He knew pretty much everything about everything, so that was awesome. The day before the launch when we were cruising around the KSC for the tour, he took our bus away from the group and brought us around the back side of the launch pad where we weren't supposed to go. There were some pissed off guards, haha.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that our tour guide's name was Gary. Our bus driver was Bob. They made quite a pair!

Just by random chance, I happened to meet the families of Dave Williams and Barbara Morgan at our hotel (apparently Dave and Barbara are really close friends), and they invited my friends and I to a beach breakfast on the morning of the launch. We accidentally slept through the breakfast because we went skinny-dipping at Jetty Park the night before, but it was cool meeting them anyway. :o

Did you get a chance to try the Shuttle Experience ride at the KSCVC after your tour? I couldn't stop laughing the whole time, haha.

johnee
Aug 14, 2007, 01:32 PM
hey J., methinks your tinfoil hat is too tight, please adjust your set...:p

Yeah, no one should take me seriously, i don't. I also don't take most things in the physical/mental/spiritual world seriously either. I used to be serious about most things in life, but i've learned there's no point to that. Life is much better with the former method. :)

I recommend it.

jczubach
Aug 14, 2007, 01:56 PM
Hey J., no offence intended, just havin' fun and loving your threads, by the way. i'm making my own tin foil hat out of cigarette liners, light and have a distinct, pleasing aroma. they just won't let me out of the house wearing it, too avant garde, or so i am able to delude myself into accepting.:D

johnee
Aug 14, 2007, 02:10 PM
Hey J., no offence intended, just havin' fun and loving your threads, by the way. i'm making my own tin foil hat out of cigarette liners, light and have a distinct, pleasing aroma. they just won't let me out of the house wearing it, too avant garde, or so i am able to delude myself into accepting.:D

none taken. I admit i'm a jerk sometimes but that's only because i like exploring the bounds of how we think. many people seem to, "accept" what is and what isn't without questioning, but I try not to do that. That's why I can flip from one side of an argument to another so easily. I'm not tied to a "position" per se so I can instigate an engagement and exploration of the bounds.

avant garde is where you want to be :)


I work for the Canadian Space Agency

Great robotic arm! :D

seriously, that's really cool. Do you ever get to check out the russian space agency? I hear they're upping their price for private citizens because they're running out of cash :(

jczubach
Aug 14, 2007, 02:15 PM
Ah, a true contrarian. Even Jesus loves you, even if you don't believe in him, nor you he...

elfin buddy
Aug 14, 2007, 02:34 PM
Great robotic arm! :D

seriously, that's really cool. Do you ever get to check out the russian space agency? I hear they're upping their price for private citizens because they're running out of cash :(

Haha, thanks! We do tend pride ourselves on the Canadarm and Canadarm2, especially since we don't have independent launch capabilities :p

I'm not directly involved with the Canadarm in my current job, but I worked on software for the arm last summer. Many of my friends here at the CSA are working on the SPDM (DEXTRE), which is an extension for the Canadarm2 that will reduce the need for spacewalks by providing very precise and dextrous tools that mimic what a human can do. The completed SPDM was shipped to Florida just a few months ago, and it's scheduled to go up in February. Funny story, they actually had trouble getting the SPDM across the border into the US because its protective packaging had a giant "LAUNCH" sticker on it and it spooked the border guards, haha.

I've never looked much into the Russian Space Agency, though I knew they have been sending up space tourists to the ISS. It really wouldn't surprise me if they were running out of money :rolleyes:

johnee
Aug 14, 2007, 03:08 PM
Haha, thanks! We do tend pride ourselves on the Canadarm and Canadarm2, especially since we don't have independent launch capabilities :p

I'm not directly involved with the Canadarm in my current job, but I worked on software for the arm last summer. Many of my friends here at the CSA are working on the SPDM (DEXTRE), which is an extension for the Canadarm2 that will reduce the need for spacewalks by providing very precise and dextrous tools that mimic what a human can do. The completed SPDM was shipped to Florida just a few months ago, and it's scheduled to go up in February. Funny story, they actually had trouble getting the SPDM across the border into the US because its protective packaging had a giant "LAUNCH" sticker on it and it spooked the border guards, haha.

I've never looked much into the Russian Space Agency, though I knew they have been sending up space tourists to the ISS. It really wouldn't surprise me if they were running out of money :rolleyes:

that is funny about the border check. I live in vermont about an hour away from the border and crossing the border has gotten "fun" as of late.

That's awesome you work on the arm's software. great job and keep it up!

MacFan25863
Aug 14, 2007, 04:41 PM
Congrats on the invite from NASA HQ! How did you swing that?

Did you get a chance to try the Shuttle Experience ride at the KSCVC after your tour? I couldn't stop laughing the whole time, haha.

Ah...I was on the Administrator's Guest bus. Did you watch it from Banana Creek or the Causeway?

I was a finalist in a video contest about NASA last year so they sent me an invite.

Yeah...I thought it was kinda lame. I enjoyed Mission:Space at EPCOT wayyy more than the Shuttle Experience. Too bad they didn't combine the two...that would be a pretty awesome ride.

Speaking about the SPDM....
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/5278/n5008401313699063127kc7.th.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n5008401313699063127kc7.jpg)http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3401/n5008401313699074784wm6.th.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n5008401313699074784wm6.jpg)
(the first picture is of the SPDM on the ISS assembly floor, the second is of the decal on the floor next to it ;) )

floriflee
Aug 14, 2007, 11:02 PM
If teachers are such bad luck it still doesn't explain what happened to the Columbia. IIRC, there was no teacher aboard for that mission. Why, then, did that one happen to go so wrong?

evilgEEk
Aug 15, 2007, 12:39 AM
By the way, for your viewing pleasure...
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/2100/img0998kw6.th.jpg (http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0998kw6.jpg)
(Me with Endeavour the night before launch last week :cool: )

That's a great picture, and an excellent avatar!

:D

dadsp33k
Aug 15, 2007, 12:49 AM
Could you imagine if that thing blew up again???

"We dont need no education.
We dont need no mission control.
No dark sarcasm in the vessel.
Teacher, leave those shuttles alone.
All in all its just another tile in the hull."

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Pink-Floyd---Dark-Side-of-The-Moon-Poster-C10055523.jpeg

elfin buddy
Aug 15, 2007, 10:47 AM
that is funny about the border check. I live in vermont about an hour away from the border and crossing the border has gotten "fun" as of late.

That's awesome you work on the arm's software. great job and keep it up!

We had a terrible time crossing into Vermont on the way south. There was a lineup at the border that took about an hour and a half to get through. We amused ourselves by rolling down the windows and rocking out to Backstreet Boys :p

Ah...I was on the Administrator's Guest bus. Did you watch it from Banana Creek or the Causeway?

I was a finalist in a video contest about NASA last year so they sent me an invite.

Yeah...I thought it was kinda lame. I enjoyed Mission:Space at EPCOT wayyy more than the Shuttle Experience. Too bad they didn't combine the two...that would be a pretty awesome ride.

Speaking about the SPDM....
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/5278/n5008401313699063127kc7.th.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n5008401313699063127kc7.jpg)http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3401/n5008401313699074784wm6.th.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n5008401313699074784wm6.jpg)
(the first picture is of the SPDM on the ISS assembly floor, the second is of the decal on the floor next to it ;) )

Nice pic of the SPDM! Small world, eh? I especially like the sense of humour about it being Canadian, haha. We have a model of the SPDM in the High Bays right next to my lab. It's a neat little piece of technology!

If teachers are such bad luck it still doesn't explain what happened to the Columbia. IIRC, there was no teacher aboard for that mission. Why, then, did that one happen to go so wrong?

Though it's complete ********, one could argue that it happened because Barbara Morgan was in training at the time and was scheduled to go up not too long after the Columbia mission. It delayed her trip to space by several years ;)

yellow
Aug 15, 2007, 10:50 AM
let's just say if i was an astronaut and a teacher was on my flight, i would ask them if they didn't mind sitting this one out.


Bah. Just drink a whole crapload of whisky before takeoff and landing and everything will be fine!

MacFan25863
Aug 15, 2007, 11:24 PM
Bah. Just drink a whole crapload of whisky before takeoff and landing and everything will be fine!

I think the whole astronaut drinking thing is a whole bunch of bs. I've met and talked with a bunch of astronauts, and they would NEVER put themselves or their crew at risk. Going to space takes YEARS of training and hard work (most astronauts file their application 15 to 20 years before they even get to sit in the seat of a shuttle!) and I seriously doubt they would even want to risk putting that on the line. Not to mention the fact that the medical exams they receive before launch are VERY detailed and any sign of intoxication would immediately result in a scrubbed launch (and an astronaut without a job!).

imac/cheese
Aug 16, 2007, 08:05 AM
It is obvious that the shuttle needs an inanimate carbon rod to save the day. :)

MacFan25863
Aug 16, 2007, 09:14 PM
NASA has just announced (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?alias=nasa-says-no-need-to-repa&chanId=sa003&modsrc=reuters) that the shuttle will not need to be repaired prior to re-entry next Wednesday.

johnee
Aug 21, 2007, 03:29 PM
I guess teachers in space are not bad luck.

boo-urns for teachers in space!

MacNut
Aug 21, 2007, 03:32 PM
Unless they showed stock footage on the news of a different shuttle landing it seems they made it home safely.:)